Comments: The Female Narcissist

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 1998-2002. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday August 19, 2003
Time: 12:49 AM

S1

Dr. Irene, I wrote you a question last week regarding a year long relationship that I had just went through. I had not seen your description of a female narcissist before I wrote that question. All I can tell you is that Dana is my ex. This description was so dead on that I thought that you knew my ex. Anyway, I have been reading a lot of articles, questions, and responses from your website and I wanted to add some comments. I think this site is incredible because you realize that there are, in fact, other people out there dealing with situations that are just as bad or worse than your own. I have a deep compassion for all the people that have to deal with these kinds of crazy relationships. I understand that my year long long distance relationship is nothing compared to some of the god-awful things that other people have dealt with. However, as I read the posts and as I monitor my own feelings, I realize that we all get a little too obsessed with wanting everything to be a certain way. We want to know exactly what our ex thinks, why they think it, why they won't say sorry, why they try to suck us back in, why this and why that. I think the reason is because that person took control over us for so long, that we become obsessed with having control. We want the answer to everything because we have been completely conned. One of the hardest things for us all to do is let it go. I think all of us try to figure out what the best way to let go is. Should I let go by being angry? Should I let go by being sorry for the ex? We read everything that we can to try to figure them out. I think that knowledge is helpful (finding out that there is a such thing as NPD has helped keep me away from my ex). Yet, I think that we can become obsessed with the subject. I, for one, think that reading some of Dr. Vaknin's material, can be counterproductive for healing. I think that you reach a point where you start thinking that you can help the person because you know her so well. The thing is, that Dr. V probably has much more insight than any other narcissist that we deal with. Also, I question Dr. V's motives when he tells us that we can be with the narcissist if we can just accept them for who they are. This sounds like my ex-narcissist telling me, "I love you so much. You are really SO SPECIAL to me!" It's like a trick to con us back in. Unless you have no emotions or care nothing for other people (or yourself for that matter), THERE IS NO WAY (NOPE...FORGET IT..NUH-UH) THAT YOU CAN ACCEPT A NARCISSIST FOR WHO THEY ARE. This is going to sound stupid, but I have finally come to the conclusion that the best way to let go is just to let go. I remember when my dad used to tell me that there was no use in crying over spilled milk. I am not minimizing what these people do to us as spilled milk. But, we have to make a decision that these people, no matter how they hurt us, are closed chapters in our lives. For that reason, there is no use crying over them. Trust me (whoever reads this), my relationship with a narcissist has taken its toll on me for the past year. I will probably go to my grave with a small scar on my heart. The things that she did to me were cruel and terrible, but I don't want to relive them anymore. I don't really feel like taking the energy to even write about them. I have been more sad, angry, ashamed and confused than ever in my life. I've just decided that I don't want to be those things anymore. My life is too short for that. I'm not sure why I wrote this. I guess I hope it helps somebody out there to see light at the end of the tunnel. I also wrote it for me (I've learned that sometimes you have to do things for yourself). I know that I will not get a sorry from her. I have given up on a genie popping out of a bottle and granting me my one wish of having my ex truly love me forever. In my head, for so long, I have been having these battles with her, asking her why she hurt me so bad, why she can't just change. (You guys will not believe this, but as I write this right now, she just called my cell for the first time in a month...when do they take the hint?) Now, I'm saying, you know what, it's over, don't worry about it, but I have to move on with my life.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday July 18, 2003
Time: 06:25 PM

S1

The female narcissist that has verbally abused me fits the male description to a T, but not the female. She is overweight, insecure as heck about it, and definately does not try to charm anyone. It is true that all her "friends" are male, and that all her female friends "have always let her down" and that she definately likes to be the only female present.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday July 16, 2003
Time: 01:53 PM

S1

I foolishly fell in love with Dana. At the beginning it really was too good to be true. There were many times in the so called relationship that my gut or instincts were telling me that something was not quite right about the whole situation. She lived in another city and upon the first visit she stayed with me for two weeks while her on break from the university. Boy did she pour on the charm and everything else. I thought I found that all elusive "soulmate." That was a sad mistake as I found out the next time she came to stay the summer with me. It was like, "excuse me, have we met, oh you must be the evil twin sister." "Can I speak to the sweet one." Well needless to say I have had some trouble coming to the realization that I was used in such a manner. But thankfully it did not last that long, so I am just chalking it up as a life experience. I know better next time. However, she was just so beautiful. Thanks SD

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday July 16, 2003
Time: 01:29 PM

S1

Dear "Deception in Dallas", First, you need to calm down. Realize that every action she takes, and those she doesn't take, are attempts to provoke you. The angrier you become, the more likely you are to explode, and the better she'll look in court. The only way to deal with a narcissist is by showing NO emotion. Don't smile, frown, laugh, or cry. Don't sound interested in anything she says. Keep replies to "Yep", "Nope", and "We'll see". Don't let her see you happy, sad, hurt or angry. Also realize that there is absolutely NO correlation between child support and visitation. If you go before a judge and say, "But I've paid ALL this money and have BARELY seen my child..." you're going to LOOK like an insensitive, narcissistic moron. Buy, read, and commit to memory a book written by Dr. Richard Warshak (located in Dallas!) called, "Divorce Poison". It will help your relationship with your child, give you a little more understanding of your wife's behavior, and arm you for custody litigation. Also research "Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS)" discovered by Dr. Richard Gardner. GO TO EVERY "SUPERVISED" VISITATION SESSION! DO NOT MISS ONE FOR ANY REASON!! And stop trying to talk to her about the divorce. That's what lawyers are for. Find one with experience in PAS and that has read or is willing to read "Divorce Poison". It sounds like you've got a lot of damage control to do, but hopefully it's not too late. My husband's ex-wife is the epitome of a female narcissist. They have two small children. We keep a written log and record telephone conversations because there have been numerous occasions where a calm interchange between the two sides has been blown into a "horrible, terrifying" experience when she retells it. We've had several opportunities to say "No, this is how it went..." to the authorities, and have exposed her for the fool she is. The hardest personal challenge we've faced has been to remain calm; but we HAVE, and it's paid off! Good Luck! -MDB in Alabama

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday July 08, 2003
Time: 03:42 PM

S1

I am a man that fell in love with a Dana! Her parents wouldent pay for our wedding but havent minded paying over $100,000 for a divorce! They have actually accused me of being narcissistic and are trying to keep me from ever seeing my child! Until we go back to court I have supervised visitation for 8 hours a month! So far I have spent $16,000 To see my own child for a total of 88 hours! She has a protective order against me because on one occasion, after she had either hung up on me, told me her cell battery was going dead, or tell me she would call me back and not, 57 times in a 6 week time period. I completely lost control and yelled and cussed at her on her voice mail! I never threatened anybody. I did call my wife a Bi_ch and I said f_ck y_u about 50 times so it was bad ut what she is doing to me now is terrible! She even still calls me on the phone to say hi like nothing is wrong! When I try to talk about the divorse she either has to get off the phone or she gets angry and sais she doesnt want to talk about it! What can I do to prove this woman is a danger to my child and that she has lied in court and all of this is just a game to her? Deception in Dallas

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday July 03, 2003
Time: 08:03 PM

S1

I absolutely fell for a female narcissist 11 years ago. We married 1 year later and will be divorced soon (I hope) after 10 years of Marriage. I don't believe she has ever had a relationship, without an affair or cheating. Our turning point was when after we were married she told me, "I'm not proud of it, I cheated on my x, but I knew how to do it without getting caught." Whew! Since then I guess I always wondered when it would happen to me. It happened in 96 for 9 months. Then in 98 we moved to a big house in a small town and the narcissism really set in. I build gorgeous fountains and gardens, a cabin, landscaped and improved the "mansion". She was on the Garden Tours and wanted me to work my rear off to get the house done for the homes tours. She took a job out of town and began another affair. She's 46, he was 33. I can only imagine how she snared him into her clutches as she did me. The thing is I never realized that there was a condition known as NBD until last month. It sure has opened my eyes. Especially realizing that they are not willing to help themselves, so there is nothing that we can do for them. When my Wife would beg me back in the past she would see a counsler, or we would see one for our marriage, but she never got to the real issues. I would always be the blame for her actions or affairs. When I couldn't sleep, eat or function for days I decided to pray. Not this time to save the Marriage, but to show me the truth, and to be able to handle it. I got my prayers answered. My eyes are wide open. I know I am a good man. Patient, kind, considerate, compassionate, enduring, Loving and peaceful. I was the glue that held us together for 10 years. This isn't my fault, it is her character and her established behavior through her entire life. Like Dana she has no friends, and what people she might talk to is always lies upon lies. I am glad I have friends and support through this, and that I can be totally honest with everyone. If you are in this situation, remember, it's not that you're not good enough for them, you are just wanting something to work because you are a good person. But that doesn't mean it ever will, and there is no way to change that. Get on with your life with someone who deserves and reciprocates the kind of Love you give. And Pray for the Truth and Guidance. It worked for me! Good Luck...

B1: Submit
Date: Monday June 30, 2003
Time: 05:03 PM

S1

Hi, doctor. I am a female narcissist...and I relate to Dana on many grounds. I do tell myself that I am special in some way and that others are below me and to be quite honest with you, I really like it that way. Thank you.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday June 16, 2003
Time: 03:05 PM

S1

...and when Dana reaches her mid-thirties and realizes that time is taking its toll on her pretty face, she will charm the first unsuspecting male (with money), marry him quickly before he figures her out, and get pregnant. All to ensure that her narcissistic supply of adulation never dwindles. Who is a woman's greatest admirer and biggest fan? Her child...

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday June 07, 2003
Time: 05:15 PM

S1

i think i'm a narcissist who fell in love recently with another. it was a passionately demanding and mutually flattering tryst of great intensity which could not sustain itself.i believe we were each making advances towards each other in a constant attempt at "performing" with a resulting sense of ebullient success or drained failure.i was so in love with this object of reflectant self love, and i still am to some extent,even though i don't want to see her as i am reminded that she is not the ideal i once imagined her to be and when we fall into the old pattern of her wooing and cooing and flattering and charming and sexually provoking me as i pretend to deserve and ignore it i am embarrassed that anyone "normal" might see us and see right through the act. as it is that unusual. the redeeming or enabling element lay in the fact that we are both artists,graphic and performing, so our mileau would be highly skewed towards seeing this as normal behaviour however much it smacks of desperate pretentiousness and indicates weakness of character and reckless fatuousness.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday May 29, 2003
Time: 12:22 AM

S1

Help me, please!! I truly believe my sister-in-law has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and have thought so for the last couple of years. She is the only daughter in her family, and I am married to her only brother. She hated my guts from the very beginning, and LOVES to put me down, but I discovered that I could protect myself by not letting her be alone with me. She is 29 yrs. old, and I am almost 25. She has just recently started college to study the very thing that she criticized me for getting my degree in! She is attending a very expensive private school (which her parents are helping her pay for) because she claims it is the only school within reasonable distance. I think she is lying. Her family, including my DH, is completely blind to her antics, and I'm beginning to feel very isolated. I'm having trouble having a relationship with my in-laws because of it. Last Christmas she literally threw a raging fit because someone misplaced a piece to one of her son's toys, and rather than scold her for acting like a two-year-old, her parents immediately ran to the rescue. It was so hard for me to keep my mouth shut! I'm beginning to see her behavior in her five-year-old daughter as well. She is married to an officer in the military, and her status as an officer's wife has exacerbated her symptoms. Now she is obsessed with being thin and looking perfect and only allows her children to be in private schools. Now that she is back in school, she uses her academic achievements to get her parents to bragg about her. It is so nauseating! It makes me have no respect for my mother and father-in-law. She doesn't work, and she must spend half of her husband's salary on clothes and beauty products, yet continues to complain to her parents about money. Her presence makes me so uncomfortable that I have had to leave my own home when I know she is coming over. She is really putting a strain on our marriage because I don't feel that I should have to subject myselft to her, yet my husband makes me feel horrible if I don't want to attend family gatherings. My mother and father-in-law want us to have a relationship with my niece and nephew so they also force family gatherings, and I feel so horrible around my sister-in-law that I get physically ill. Her little digs, even when her family is around, really make me feel awful. Whether it be snyde comments about my family, or my sub-par (public) college education, I just can't handle it! And I KNOW that if I stand up for myself, she will make ME that bad guy! What can I do???!!! She lives in another state, and fortunately we don't have contact with her, however I find it very bizarre that she doesn't acknowledge my husband at all, until she comes for her annual visits. She doesn't even send him a card or email on his birthday. This woman is so toxic to me, but I don't know what to do. Please help!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday May 27, 2003
Time: 06:24 AM

S1

Dana could very well be my sister! Until today, I had been unable to put a name to my sister's personality traits and have also wondered how on earth one copes with this type of personality. I believe my mother may also have narcissistic tendencies. After 20yrs of trying to live up to the expectations of the two of them - and never succeeding - I emigrated from England to Australia and have been here ever since. Despite the long separation I still have trouble with self esteem and often find myself panicking when dealing with confrontational and controlling personalities. I would love to see an article dealing with 'victims of narcissistic parents or sibblings'. Regards Glynis

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday May 25, 2003
Time: 09:48 PM

S1

Yep I just kicked mine to the curb. C.Ruppe has all the qualities of an Narcissist. I have known her for about 2 years now and have grown close to her and her youngest daughter but recently people have been telling me about how she uses guys. I looked around and seen what they were talking about. The sequence of children should have tipped me off I guess. She is 41 years old and has three kids the oldest being 20 the middle being 14 and the youngest being 3 years old. The slot machine stops giving money for the 20 year old in one more year but if you notice you still have seven years for the middle child and 18 years for the youngest so how much extra does that give the 41 year old C Ruppe? You do the math. I am such a sarcastic bastard. Well any way I said I was growing close to her and one night when I took her and her oldest daughter out for dinner (I paid by the way)her daughter asked us why we didn't start dating. C.Ruppe never answered and I just dropped it until we got back to her house and after her daughter left. I never did get a reply the answer the subject was changed and when pressed further she said she was tired and was going to bed. A month went by and I brought it up again and no answer again so I called her and told her that the next day we were going to lunch and she was going to tell me. We always take my car and the time came to leave for lunch and she was digging in her purse for her keys. I told her didn't matter if we went in her car we were still going to answer my question and that we were taking my car so she couldn't just stop and tell me to get out. Listen to this bullshit answer I get. "I don't want to date you because if we did go out and we broke up it would be hard to be friends". "I told you before to that I don't want any man in my life as far as a relationship goes". She has no problem talking to me, going places with me, spending my money(money isn't an issue to me. I am business like and view money as only an idea, I place much more value on time.)and using me to do favors for like dropping off her car payment,taking the trash out when I am over there, etc. This is the third week of not talking to her. She seems strange at work when she tries to talk to me but I told her straight up to not bullshit me and give me my answer or I was done with her. I know that sounds a little Narcissistic of me but I don't think so. I have always been like that when people can't be straight up with me when I am with them. I guess that's the New Yorker in me. The one I feel sorry for though is her little girl, god I miss that little girl. The Yankee

B1: Submit
Date: Monday April 21, 2003
Time: 02:43 PM

S1

i grew up with 3 sisters,no brothers. my mother always said she wanted a boy only and joked that they were "mistakes". to this day, all 3 of my sisters have problems relating to my mother. her and i can talk like 2 adults w/o regressing like they do. she and l "battled" when i was younger and i hated her alot. but now im older and i see her ways,good and bad,in my ways. i am also a spitting image of her and my sisters don't really look like her much. my question is,"do i understand her more NOW because i see so much of her in me now?" knowing my struggles with the issues i saw her struggle with before, it makes me empathize with her like i could(would)never have done before. are these patterns set in stone?

B1: Submit
Date: Monday April 14, 2003
Time: 05:41 PM

S1

I did, realised I'll be far better off not even knowing that cow a second longer. We worked together for 6 months, got envolved and as soon as you could stop to think, I thought what happened to that person I used to know. Answer, that person never existed! It suddenly struck me, how could I make such a grave mistake. Looking back She spent six months craving attention, belittling everybody, talking material things, lying about past relationships etc. Arrogance, lies, manipulation, self absorbed! I feel sometimes I should contact her and advise her to see a doctor, but then I think I'll just let her be and let the next mug come along!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday April 09, 2003
Time: 06:31 PM

S1

Hello, Dr. Irene. On Sunday afternoon I faced something I never would think could ever happen to me. My engagement ring (a 12K ring) was stolen from my home--- by my best friend of 8 years. To make a long story short, after a month and half, I am $2K in the hole, am missing my ring, have stains in my carpet and realized that my entire friendships was based on lies and that a stranger was living in my house. I have a range of emotions I go through every day. Hurt, anger, sorrow, disgust, confusion, and depression. I have spent the past three days not only trying to find my ring, but also trying to understand what just happened to me and why. After reading this article I realized the source of the problem, and I can from here start to make sense of things and come out of the shock I have been in since my discovery of this person, whom I called my best friend.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday April 07, 2003
Time: 08:53 PM

S1

I am involved with a man who was married to what I believe is a female narcissist. She was not a beautiful woman and could not do a whole lot to change that fact. She was overweight, a horrible housekeeper, wife and mother. Yet the outside world had no idea of these facts. They were married for 12 years. For most of the marriage, the husband would never question or argue with her to "keep peace." He said it was simply not worth it to argue with her. Things were fine as long as everything went the way she wanted it too. She rode the coat-tails of important people in her field (Nursing) and eventually became a Research Nurse. Her jobs paid very well and she was not supervised, did not have to work with others. As long as she filled out the proper paperwork at home for the project, her employers were satisfied. She appeared to be extremely successful in the work force. The did get fired from two jobs because she could not get along with others. That fact was always disregarded, it was everybody Else's fault not hers. Family and friends never heard the true story of why she failed. She would lie and make up stories of what happened. As a housewife, she would hire people to come in and clean the house when people would come for a party. Normally the house was absolutely filthy, unlivable to most standards. Yet when company would arrive, (after the cleaners had made the house spotless) she would say "Oh I am sorry the house is such a mess I have been working so hard and have not had time to clean." As a mother, she screamed at, belittled, drugged to sleep (as a small child) and beat the son with a belt. I heard stories that she would suddenly smack him across the face without any notice if he said the slightest thing that would anger her. This child is now fighting serious alchohol and drug addiction problems. She reasons this away by saying that his father, who died when the child was an infant, was a drug addict and the child could not escape the genes. She takes NO responsiblility for the teens issues. Yet, she was the first to tell everybody how to raise their children, how to tend to them medically and psychologically. The last 4 years of the marriage the husband began to re-evaluate his life and with that began to fight back. The son was reaching his teen years and she also lost control of him. The marriage could not handle his new approach. She became increasingly abusive, belittling him and the son and screaming at them both. Finally the husband left. This caused an incredibly horribly chain of events. Her anger, spitefulness, lies, and manipulation escalated to a point that would exhaust the most powerful human being. She goaded him to hit her and when he wouldn't created bruises on her own body. Broke into his house when they were separated, came after him with a hammer and took him to court claiming he attacked her. She lost in court and actually was found guilty of assult herself. She says that was a "stroke of luck on the husbands part", the court would not listen to her side. During the divorce, it did not matter to her that it would cost her thousands of dollars, she fought everything, would negotiate nothing and wanted him to suffer financially. Eventually, the son moved out of the home to live with the father. She continued to cash the child support checks that the state sent her from the father, refused to pay him child support and kept checks the child received through SS because his biological father had died. She would reason away why she did this and make unbelievable claims to support her case. She has no heart, wants to be a victim, tells everybody from their dentist to his childhood friends that he has beat her and other stories that are just too sensitive to repeat. She is the most incredibly damaging cold hearted person I have ever experienced. Fortunately, I am not the focus of her anger and her attacks have not been aimed at me. It has taken everything he has to protect himself, she will lie in court, to the police, to the pope. The interesting thing about this whole story is, the outside world does not know these things about her. Everybody thinks that she is a wonderful kindhearted caretaker. A hardworking focused Nurse who is an asset to her employers. A wonderful wife, mother, daughter, sister and human being. She works very hard to maintain this image. Her ex says it is the most surreal thing he has ever experienced. Sometimes her stories are so convincing, he doubts his own reality. I have become a sense of reality for him in this. I don't get involved with the two of them but when he needs to talk it helps him to talk to me because he feels grounded. So, how accurate is this description to the typical female narcissist? In what I read, most females emphasis on looks... this lady actually takes on a male role and wants control, power and emphasis is on career. I would love to hear any feedback that people have on my post. Thanks for listening!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday March 18, 2003
Time: 05:47 PM

S1

I read this just because I wanted to see what a Narcissist's behavior looked like. I have dated a person like this who was emotionally abusive. The biggest thing I noticed is that this TOTALLY describes my mother-in-law. I have continually been shocked by the way she does "business" and the way she goes through life as if she is the queen. She HAS to be in constant control over her children. If one of them disagrees or confronts her, she shuns them...ie my husband who is not the favorite. I am a very upfront person and I have made several honest comments throughout my life with her and she just looks at me with shock and ignores me. I believe that she has felt threatened that she can no longer control my husband and manipulate him in her emotional games. She is constantly in new relationships with rich men and basically uses them and then dumps them. She has used several men to pay for things that she wants. When she does not get her way, it is anyone else's fault but her own. The men that pass through her life are always at fault and do not ever live up to her pious expectations. She will continue to date a man she obviously has no interest in, while allowing him to pay for her while they go out, send her flowers and drool and fawn over her like she is the last woman on earth! She speaks of all these men with contempt while she continues to date them. Eventually they end up being ignored or shunned. In the past few years, I have noticed her total betrayal of our once close relationship. I have come to see her for the person she truly is...a user. It is only after reading this section that I now know how and why she "functions in dysfunction" as I say. I will be interested to read more and really find a way to deal with her in a way that is healthy for my husband and myself. Thank you for an always awesome and informative site. Continue the good work Dr. Irene! love, content

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday March 13, 2003
Time: 08:59 AM

S1

Hi... I had an experience with a female narcissist that left me shocked, hurt and back in therapy. I knew this woman for about three years on a very casual basis, never attracted to her as she was not my type. She is very attractive though, tall with beautiful brown eyes. When I overheard her say she liked to work out, I asked her to go for a bike ride. Well, that night we went to dinner and she was charming, witty and exciting. The next night she asked me to meet her late for coffee. When she drove me home I asked her to come upstairs, thinking she would say no. Well, she said yes! In 20 minutes she had her clothes off; she was very aggressive, passionate and sensual. After that night we were inseparable. We exchanged poetry via e-mail, talked about European vacations, made passionate love. I thanked God as I felt this was finally my true love. I was being warned by friends though. She was married three times and had a brief affair right after her last divorce so people told me to slow down. I didn't care, I was so in love. After about a month things got weird. She would let me bring my laundry over, than comlain there was too much and ask me not to bring it again. I would wash her car then ask If I could wash mine. She said the offer to wash her's was not genuine so she said no. I would bring flowers, cd's food. I loved her even though I was a little concerned that her moods changed so rapidly. After about a month she announced that she was "pulling in her emotions" because we were going too fast. The e-mails and voice mails became less loving. She wanted to spend less time with me. I was a wreck trying to figure our what I was doing wrong. At the end of our three month relationship she verbally assualted me, criticizing everything from my hair style,my clothes, how I was not the person she thought I was when she first met me. It was a barrage of verbal inventory taking, and I just took it. She watched me tearfully fill a bag with my stuff and said that maybe we will get back together in the future if I get my .... together. I now realize I was a good codependant target. It still hurts after three weeks. I was pretty happy before I met her, now I'm trying to get it back together. The scary thing is I really missed those early good times with her. I know now that she is incapable of a lasting relationship. I also know I'm a codependant so I've got to slow down and take it easy the next time!

Date: Sunday February 23, 2003
Time: 12:33 PM

S1

My daughter is 24 years old and lives at home. She has a very good job but refuses to pay room & board. Therefore, she was given a deadline to move out. Now she is not talking to me, her mother, but is speaking to her step-father, even though he agrees to the deadline. I have gone for counseling and have just found out that she is a 'narcissistic' person. I can't beleive all the simalarities that she has...never willing to take any blame, never saying she is sorry, can't accept criticism, blames everyone else for her problems, is never happy. How can I have realtionship with her? I am ignoring her right now because she even thrives on arguing with me. I would appreciate any suggestions. Thank you.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday January 30, 2003
Time: 03:15 PM

S1

Dana? Ha, sounds like an autobiography of my recent (by two days) Ex-fiancé. The difference, is that my ex likes to drink, and she would become enraged at me for the silliest things (usually not lavishing attention of some form or another on her) and decide to hit me or openly approach another man. Yelling and screaming she would yell huge insults at me. Then, sober, she would be fine as long as I always agreed with her and never questioned her. Life was good with her as long as you gave her everything. My house was full of pictures of her (her shrine to herself) that she hung-up. In her past relationships she was always the victim - never in the wrong. I actually thought she loved me. When I confronted her that she needed some help, she broke-down in tears. I took her back (like an idiot) and she swore never to drink again so there would be no more violence. However, anytime thereafter I disagreed with her, she would yell at me, stabbing me with these terrible comments. Seems the only time I could get her to even shut-up was to yell back at her. Then, the silent treatment. Finally, I got tired of her and told her to get out and pack her personal things. The first thing she did was take down all the pictures of herself as if she was saying (now you cannot look at my beauty anymore). I feel emotionally drained, used and taken advantage of besides the after effects of the abuse. I think I maybe somewhat co-dependant and I am now seeking counseling.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday January 24, 2003
Time: 03:20 PM

S1

My 6 year relationship with a BPD/NPD female ended exactly six months ago. I barely survived.During that time I was called every foul name in the book including "wimp". She said that she needs a man(she had found him already)would would help her with her finaces and fix things around her house. I did those exact samethings,but it wasn't enough for her. I went from the sexiest man alive(in her eyes)to a disgusting,fat pig in the blink of an eye( I'm not fat ). I have never found a more attractive,sexier woman in my life and I never will again, either. I should get down on my knees and thank God that this "pretty poison" is out of my life and making somebody else's life miserable,but I haven't yet. All I can think about is how I can get even. Jeff

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday January 23, 2003
Time: 12:54 AM

S1

Well, it's been 7 almost eight years since my divorce. I grew up in a catholic family. My dad well at one point was an alcoholic, he reformed went to AA. I really got to to know and respect him, to bad I was in my 30s then. My mother, a saint. I was the second of 8 children. I never really had many relationships with women. I had a steady in H.S.. College seemed to break that up and growing up I guess. I fell in love in college and the rest is history. Well after learning about Ns last year, I have come to realize and accept my fate. I was married at 21 and well was married for 16 year and had four children and walked on eggshells. I have now been researching this N thing for, oh, about 2 years now. It's a sad disorder and I don't know why it doesn't get the publicity in the media as Manic Depression/BiPolar, or other disorders. Sometimes I believe a N can almost cause these other defects in people who fall for them. I have 4 children, I got the boys, she got the girls. It is so sad. I've accepted it. I just wish maybe Judges and lawyers would understand a N. Ns are so different at home then in public and can they act. I'm worried about my daughters, custody battles are a joke as Ns, like I say, and as many here on this cite say, can act and lie like the devil. I say that because mine sure is belived, evidence or not (sleeping with lawyers helps and probably judges). I worried my daughters will become their mother, but they seem to be seeing the light, as they get older, but it's so hard. If your thinking of getting married to a N, think hard about kids and about your own sanity. They do not change and you will be the one with problems and if you fight in court, it will be proven. You will not be belived as the home life is different than the life outside the home. You will learn to hate it when company leaves and so will your kids. You will want to go out all the time and so will the kids. Why? Just keep reading this cite. My advice, get out, a shrink who admitted he made a mistake (should have sued him, did the lawyer, and judge, didn't get very far) gave me the best advice I ever recieved. You can't stop an old dog from doing her old tricks, get a divorce. If your anything like me--you never get over the love you had for the N, but at least you mind comming home, and you are never alone, but then again I'm a catholic. I hope I'm not in custody court again this summer, as I think I have work things out, but with Ns, I got a feeling, I will be fighting for my life again this summer. My experience with shrinks was awful, but at least when the truth came out (an illegal agreement with a lawyer shown to the shrink), he admitted his mistake. The biggest mistake was the ex going on prozac--made her worse. My children are so brave and my boys are doing ok, alot of scars. Im still working on the rest. While I went through all the things explained in these posts, I remembered. If you think you have the problem and you start believing your the problem and you keep taking the blame and and and and. Well remember this, it's helped me alot and it is pretty stupid, an old quote or saying "I'm rubber your glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you". Get out they can't be cured. Accept the good times and go home, your never alone.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday January 10, 2003
Time: 12:27 PM

S1

yes Dana is my wife, (of 10 yrs) she claims to have "found God" and changed, Thats why I moved back in. But somehow I am still extreemly skeptical about the whole thing. On the other hand, by me being skeptical about her, am I being shallow in my own faith that God can change her? One confused Texan

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday January 09, 2003
Time: 05:18 PM

S1

I dated a female narcissist and she was a disaster! I considered her a serial dater and never understood her behaviour until after we broke up. There was not a single individual in her life that measured up. (she's a radiologist) Every emerg doc, surgeon and other radiologist that she worked with were incompetent. The nurses were considered house maids in her eyes. I made the mistake, fell in love but never changed my beliefs so I ended up fighting with her all the time. My only word to describe a female narcissist is "MegaBitch". The irony is, I still lover her, miss her but know I can't live with her for the rest of my life or I would end up in jail. She is just bad genetics for my children. Toronto, On

S1

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday November 23, 2002
Time: 08:10 AM

S1

I was looking online for a description of the woman I am dating right now and found your website. I realize there must be many variations of this disorder but I am sure she suffers from a form of narcissism. She owns enough clothes to wear a different outfit every day of the year. Compulsive about her looks. She turns 40 soon and is already talking about plastic surgery. She has lived with someone for 10 years and has dated, alledgedly without his knowlege, since nearly the begginning. This provides her with the means to use her own money to buy more clothes. I do not believe she has any respect for him or for anyone else for that matter although, on the face of it, you would believe that she cares for nice people. She smiles and laughs alot and like many people, like others that make her laugh. She likes me because I am sweet (that is what many others call me although I think I am just an average person) and has mentioned that "others have let her down". Sounds about right? I believe the manipulation has already started with a request to do something for her, which I didn't mind doing but I am very aware of what it is. She does seem to be very self aware that she is not a particularily nice person. If asked if she has ever been in love the answer is no. After just getting out of a 14 year relationship with someone with paranoid personality disorder thinking that things will eventually change, I am under no illusion that she will. For me right now it is just another journey and I am enjoying the attenion of someone who laughs and smiles for a change and is arm candy. This is also a journey about myself. I seem to be attacted to strange people. One woman with extreemly low self esteem, one anorexic (didn't know what that was at the time), a paranoid. This has encouraged me to research the people I am attracted to. I am sure that says something about me, no?

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday November 14, 2002
Time: 03:16 AM

S1

Dear Dr Irene: As a consultant in DV who trolls all the web pages, I regularly come back to yours. It is the best on the web. You have one problem, which if solved would make yours perfect. You have multiple spelling errors, and other minor grammatical mistakes. I'm sorry to say it, but being very OCD I had to. Thanks. Is there any research to substantiate "the Judge's" posting on the language deficits of the abuser? I have noted the same problem. Could he be seeing a psychopath, where the communication disconnect is also prominent? John Castle RN PA-C MPAS chessed1@aol.com

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday November 03, 2002
Time: 01:47 PM

S1

Hello. Hello. I am a 54 year old white middle-class male who left a marriage of 18 years two years ago. After intense therapy in the last year and one-half. One year after the separation I had consultation with one of the therapists and he informed me of his NPD diagnosis. It took another year for me to accept it. "People of the Lie" plus many articles have been very helpful. I agree with many of the things about Dana, but I experienced some differences. My wife was 39 when I married her and she was quite attractive and charming. Having never been married, it was a little mysterious as to what she was doing her entire adult life. After about a year and a half of marriage, I was informed that "her flame went out". I struggled for fifteen more years to "get it back". A total unequivocal waste of time. The most amusing aspect of it was the fact was that she never seemed to feel compelled to resolve the situation. She was perfectly content to allow me to spin my wheels in the treadmill of trying to make "it" work. I never moved her a millimeter. A female confidante told me once that I was nothing more than a "houseplant" to her. My wife had this string of men who were still madly in love with her. She would tell me that one of them had been talking to one of her friends and were asking about her after 20+ years. She reveled in it. She was constantly indulged in wistful reverie of her past relationships. It was like some Tennessee Williams' play. I couldn’t tell if she was deliberately trying to be cruel or she was just self-indulgent and oblivious. In closing, I would just like to add that I think that I am not alone and that most of the female NPD’s go undetected and there are many confused desperate men out there. My email address is morelikeit77@hotmail.com if you care to comment. Joe

B1: Submit
Date: Friday November 01, 2002
Time: 07:08 PM

S1

and, what advice do you give to the victimized spouse and children? Other, than counseling, as she will not even consider it, as she thinks "she" does not have a problem. RLTole@cs.com

B1: Submit
Date: Friday November 01, 2002
Time: 09:21 AM

S1

I have been married to a Dana for almost 9yrs. I have an 11yr old step daughter and a 7yr old daughter. We have split before then got back together. Everyone could see it but me. This article brought tears to my eyes, it's my life. I need to get out of this relationship but I wont leave without my daughter. Any advice would be helpful. etsoneup@hotmail

B1: Submit
Date: Monday October 21, 2002
Time: 02:02 PM

S1

OH MY GOD!! I am totally in shock at this point! I was w/ an N for 6 1/2 years and it was horrible! He got custody of our children 2 years ago and I am now fighting him for them! I realized he was an N from reading your site and I also realized that not only is he an N, but his mother is the Queen N!! I just finished reading the differences between men & women N's and I am sure that I am an N also! I have been in the process of changing my life for a long time and ever since I have been on medication, I have gotten much better. I also can sit back and see my faults and try to "fix" them. I have recently gone to my family and let them know that I am aware of my disorder and that I want them to know how wrong and I sorry I am for the things that I have done to them.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday October 20, 2002
Time: 06:36 AM

S1

Thank you for the article - very enlightening. It describes my recent ex girlfriend almost to a tee. The breakup is extremly very for me - that cold-blooded discard. This article and lots of other writings on the web have been of great help and validation for myself, to heal from this relationship. Ironically, words mentioned in your article such as integrity, honesty, caring, trustworthyness etc - she used them as if they were her own. One thing I have not quite got a handle on is the lying part: sure I caught her out with a number of "smaller" lies and halftruths, such as inflating her income and financials means. But I have never been able to pinpoint unfaithfullness. Was she or was she not? Were her male friends just friends or also lovers and ex lovers? And also some female friends/ ( my ex has bisexual tendencies) During one of our fights she once told me "I am compromising myself i.e. living a lie". I do not quite know what she meant by that, and although asking a few times, did not get a expanation from her what she meant.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday October 18, 2002
Time: 06:55 PM

S1

I suppose it's just repetition now but that is my ex girlfriend exactly. I can relate to so much of it as well as stuff from the posts. She wore me down over two years. I used to be someone who had their head together. In fact when we started out I could see that she had some very strange behaviours. Over time she almost convinced me that she was normal and that I was messed up. We got together shortly after she finished with her previous boyfriend. She broke up with him because of "too many arguments". This was because he was "selfish and too proud to admit his mistakes". I hated him and yet I'd never met him. I'd like to meet him now. I'm sure we'd have so much to talk about. I can still remember our first real argument. It was over something pathetically small. Seeing this I smiled and said look how silly we're being. But then something strange happened; (strange back then but I considered it perfectly normal towards the end) she went into an endless lecture. A lecture that just didn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. I just laughed. It was completely out of proportion. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the original dispute. Then I'm saying to myself 'Is it me?' I knew it wasn't. I had never encountered this type of thing before so I knew it wasn't 'normal'. The odd argument with the girlfriend, yes, all standard stuff, but this? There was simply no way to resolve a conflict with her. I know it from experience. There was no reasoning with her at all. Even the appeasing and apologising for things I wasn't guilty of couldn't do the trick. I had to wait until she had grown tired of it or until circumstances dictated that it was better to be getting along. I was instructed not to laugh during the lectures because it demonstrated a "lack of respect" even though she was more or less insulting me. Anyway, as time went on she - and I don't how - seemed to convince me that I was very deserving of these lectures and that I should listen. So that's what I tried to do, and I emphasise 'tried'. We would have the petty disagreement, well in fact now we didn't even need a dispute to set her off, and it would evolve quite quickly into this lecture mode. I would concentrate very hard for a while but it just seemed to drop immediately into senselessness. I listened harder and it quite literally became painful. Sometimes I would ask for clarification on a certain point but that just seemed to be her cue to branch off into more senselessness. "I honestly don't know what you are talking about" seemed to become my catchphrase. Over time these lectures took on an abusive tone. Towards the end it was abuse with the odd wildly unjust accusation thrown in. I'd ask her why she was accusing me of that and she would make out that I had some kind of disorder that made me think people were accusing me all the time. I tried to get logical dialogues going but it was like banging my head on a brick wall. She would abuse me with some four-letter type stuff and then say I didn't have enough respect for her. It's clearer to me now but at the time I honestly started thinking maybe she's right - maybe I should respect her more. Ok, here's one of our typical exchanges from my let's-get-a-dialogue-going period: Me: ‘Hang on. Hang on. Stop. Just stop. Ok. Ok. Now, I’m finding it difficult to understand what you’re saying. Just tell me in one or two simple sentences what it is about me that you have a problem with.’ Her: ‘Look. I’m not going to..blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.’ Me: ‘No. Hang on. Hang on. I can’t understand you when you go on like that. Just short simple sentences. What is your problem with me? Don’t go on and on.’ Her: ‘You’re stubborn.’ Me: ‘Ok. I’m stubborn. Give me an example of this stubbornness.’ Her: ‘blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.’ Me: ‘No. No. Hang on. Haaaaang on. Ok. Just give me a simple example of this stubbornness.’ Her: ‘You’re being stubborn now.’ Me: ‘How am I being stubborn now?’ Her: ‘See? You can’t even admit it.’ Me: ‘Admit what? How am I being stubborn now?’ Her: ‘Well, if you can’t even admit it.’ Me: ‘I don’t know what I’m admitting.’ Her: ‘You know you’re stubborn.’ Me: ‘I don’t know I’m stubborn. Give me an example.’ Her: ‘Look Brad. I’m not going to carry on like this.’ Me: ‘Like what?’ Her: ‘blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.’ Me: ‘No. Hang on. Stop. Stoooop! Ok. I’m a bit stubborn. I’ll try to change that.’ Her: ‘You’re just saying that to shut me up.’ Me: ‘Well, what else can I do?’ Her: ‘It’s not about what you can or can’t do. Can’t you see that?’ Me: ‘What is it about then?’ Her: ‘blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.’ Me: ‘Stop. Stop it!’ You’re going on again. I can not understand you when you go on like that.’ Her: ‘Look. Do you want it to carry on like this? Is that what you want?’ Me: ‘No. I don’t want it to carry on like this. That’s why I’m trying to sort it out.’ Her: ‘Well, face up to your problems then.’ Me: ‘I’m asking you. What are my problems?’ Her: ‘Huh! You don’t even know what your problems are?’ Me: ‘No, I don’t. I want you to tell me.’ Her: ‘Your pathetic.’ Me: ‘Thank you. It’s not going to help if you say things like that.’ Her: ‘Well, face up to your problems then.’ Me: ‘I don’t know what problems you’re talking about.’ Her: ‘I’ve told you.’ Me: ‘What, that I’m stubborn?’ Her: ‘I can’t believe you’re like this.’ Me: ‘LIKE WHAT?’ Her: ‘You are soooo stubborn.’ Me: ‘I’m wasting my time here, aren’t I?’ Her: ‘blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.’ Me: ‘Stop. Stop. Stop. I don’t know what you want me to say.’ Her: ‘Well, think about it.’ Me: ‘I have thought about it, and I don’t know what you want me to say.’ Her: ‘blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.’ Me: ‘I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU WANT ME TO SAY.’ Her: ‘blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.’ Now I would go to another room, where she would follow me two minutes later for more of the same. This would be repeated once or twice more. Then either she would go to her room and cry, or I would go out for a walk to get my head together, in which case we would have this dialogue: Her: ‘So you think running away from the problem is going to help, do you?’ Me: ‘I’m just going out for a walk.’ Her: ‘I’m not going to carry on like this. I hope you realise that.’ Her: ‘Well, think about it.’ Me: <complete feeling of not knowing what the hell to do> *sigh* ‘I’ll think about it, ok?’ <I bend down to kiss her – she smiles and moves away> ‘I’m going out.’ Her: ‘You go and that’s it. I hope you realise that. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah bla bl bl b……..’ Well that's just an excerpt from an incredibly thick book that I could, if I felt the need, write about my relationship with this woman. I look back on it now and to some of the things that went on and I think: bizarre, very bizarre.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday October 04, 2002
Time: 10:25 AM

S1

I fell in love with one and I was hell on earth at the end of the relationship she told me many weird things just to get rid of me and I loved her too much ex. She told me I was weak opssesive and posesive but I just wanted to love her well god did me a favor and it was only 6 months but she was my friend for 11 years well I guess its for the best.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday October 02, 2002
Time: 10:13 AM

S1

Hi my name is Enrique ( Henry ) I fell in love with Colombian Dana , even married her , and the story i have just read applies 100% , of course we are separated and I am currently on Therapy , I would like to know what is the natural evolution of a female narcissist , in the long term of course . thank you for any advice emartindelcampo@yahoo.com

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday October 01, 2002
Time: 04:47 PM

S1

My husband's ex is a narcissist. From the time she learned of our marriage I did not exist. I was "that woman" or "the wife." She was so dramatic that when the courts ordered her to comply with an order for set visitation (something she had denied my husband for 2 years following false accusations of molestation) her response was "I'd rather go to jail than give up my son." The courts were NOT happy with her comments or actions. As a result physical custody was awarded to my husband. Needless to say, she blamed me and disliked me even more. About two weeks ago, while having her Wednesday evening visit with her son, she took some of his class pictures out of his backpack before she brought him home. (The court order allows her to pick him up from school to begin the visit.) Even though we had planned to give her some pictures, it upset both of us that she would just take the pictures without even asking since we had pre-paid for the order. One evening, when she had called to talk to the child, I answered the phone and before giving the phone to the child I asked her. "Didn't anyone ever teach you that stealing was wrong?" I did not wait for an answer but then gave the phone to my stepson. The next time I saw her, she told me that she wanted us to get along and "leave the past behind." Then she hugged me; something she had never done. Since that time she calls me by my first name and always makes it a point to ask me how I am doing. Although I still feel her actions are superficial, it is nice that she is even acting civil. Can anyone explain what might have brought this change in her and is there any way I can keep her acting civil? It definitely makes situations less stressful for my stepson. 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday September 29, 2002
Time: 07:04 PM

S1

There is a passage in the article here which talks about how the narcissist will handle being confronted with their behavior. I witnessed this many times from my ex-gf. Let's just say that she would do and say incredibly insensitive things, usually out of the blue. When I would question here about it, she would *immediately* storm away in a huff. Most of the time, she would come back within a few minutes, pretending as if nothing had ever happened, but would refuse to discuss the topic further. A few times, I followed her. It really made no sense at all to me at the time; I would think "Wait a minute...I'm the offended party here, and she's running away!" It was just very confusing, and think that is the idea of the narcissist; to throw things right out of whack, and derail any possibility of them having to answer for their actions. When I did question her as to why she did this once, she said it was a "defense mechanism". I would suggest to readers that this particular behavior is a major red flag; something to watch out for.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday September 26, 2002
Time: 08:05 PM

S1

Quite a few things like a woman I dated on and off for two years. Tell me, what happens when the man who is at her feet, at her beck and call, during his exile of distain, finds someone marvelous and true and good? Will he relize it? Or will he continue to pine for that "perfect" woman of the first five months? How does one recover from the bite of the Narcisist?

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday September 24, 2002
Time: 05:43 PM

S1

I am in the process of a divorce with one. We have a 4 year old.It is truly the worst thing I have ever experienced. Hard to make people undertstand what is going on.Including my attorney.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday September 11, 2002
Time: 11:22 AM

S1

I have read the above as well as done some extensive reading with regards BPD and NPD. I have one problem though. The more I read about NPD, the more I notice that I have some of the traits as described, however I also feel that I was the victim of a Narcissistic Woman. Was it in fact my Narcissistic behaviour that unleashed her abuse ??? I will give a brief relationship overview - I was introduced to this girl via my mother. I was told she was a "good girl", which made "bad" choices when it came to men. From the first "meeting" I liked this girl. She was well presented, have travelled extensively, had a good job, nice house, drove an above average car etc. etc. etc. Everything I was looking for in a girl and potential life partner. After only three meetings we decided to "date exclusively". She really spoilt me. As we were living in two different cities (about 70 km's apart), we phoned each other frequently, sent endless sms messages and before long I stayed over and vice versa. The distance soon proved to be a bit of a problem. After only about three weeks, she would query why I would only arrive at her house at a certain time and not sooner. I had to provide her with endless answers as to my whereabouts. If I did not answer the phone, reply to a sms message or phone her before I go to sleep, she would really get upset and interrogate me. The first "clash" happened at a friend of her's wedding. After about two glasses of wine, she started accusing me of not being able to keep my eyes off one of her work associates. Then I was told I am not doing her any good, I am not good for her and I do not let her feel good about herself. Not used to this kind of behaviour I was speechless. After that she left me sitting all alone and spent time talking to other friends. This upset me and I decided not to create a "scene" and tried to leave. She however would not let me. We eventually went home together. The next week was my birthday. She really made me feel special. I instantly forgot about the incident, until two days after my birthday. As I returned from gym, she was waiting for me at my house. She asked me if we could go to dinner which we did. During the course of dinner (after two glasses of wine) the really layed into me. Telling me all about my shortcomings, what was wrong with me etc. etc. Also - If I do not change, she is going to leave me. At first I found it very amusing, but soon realised the gravity of the situation. After arriving home, she had changed completely - all loving again. I confronted her about this the next morning. She claimed not to have remembered what she said the night before. I decided not to persue it further. Thereafter the frequency of these types of events increased. I forever had to explain myself and had to give a detailed account of whereabouts. Once or twice she humiliated me in public. After a while she started telling me I have a very poor selfesteem, which I disputed. AFter about three months of dating, we decided to move in together. The relationship then turned from bad to very bad. I was continiously being accused of - * infidelity, not giving enough, not spoiling enough, not talking to her, not having enough sex, taking advantage of her etc. etc. She "attacked" me onece or twice. Once grabbing my arm in public and the second time biting me. For this she also blamed me, saying that I bring out the "bad" in her. Whenever we had a fight, she would never stay around to resolve the conflict. Always had to be somewhere. She would usually leave and only return after about two or three days. This went of for about four months. She also accused me of being a "mommy's boy" and discussing the relationship with my mother, which of course I did not. I never however bothered to check on her whereabouts or tried to confirm her stories. ONly after our break-up did I do some "investigation". I found that, in fact, she discussed the relationship with anyone who was willing to listen. I often confronted her about her drinking, as she would arrive home after work, usually around 7 or 8, smelling of alcohol. I eventually gave her an ultimatum to decide between me and her "addiction". Of course she denied that she had an "addiction" The fact is that I loved her very much (or the image I created of her in my mind). She always told me there are a number of guys just waiting to date her, which I believed. This made me want her even more. The final "straw which broke the camel's back" was when we were having an argument and she tried to jump out of an almost stationery vehicle. She would afterwards accuse me of being in such a rage that she feared for her life and decided to rather jump from the vehicle. This is utter bullshit !!! She moved out the next day, however she spent the night with me at a friends house the very same day she moved out. After this we still saw each other, but the abuse was turned up a little. One day she would be all loving towards me and the very next she would yell and swear at me, about small things such as ordering something more expensive on the menue than usual, just becase she is paying. Then finally one day she told me she does not want to see me anymore - As if I was the Bad guy. This after I helped her move while she was out drinking with her friends. What made this even worse is that nobody believes me, I look like the abuser and I never got to say a word. But this is the best - She does not want to see me anymore, but also do not want to return my house keys, even after several request were made. She always promises to do it "next week" ! So my question - Am I the abuser,the victim or am I really "loosing it" ???

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday September 01, 2002
Time: 01:29 PM

S1

This is Mr. mike I posted on your site back on April 12. I was married to a Dana or in my case a Teresa for a long time [please read my April 12 post to see the entire story] Since that time I have been dating some. What I have noticed is I have a strong draw to date other "Teresas or other Danas" I try not to but it just seems to happen. Soooooooooooo!! I'm trying to learn from this experience and see why I get so involved with these type women. I do not know what it is. It's like I do not know how to date a real down to earth lady I guess. but GOD willing I can somehow learn from this experience. Has anyone else man or women out there been through this and have a strong attaction to these Danas or Teresas?? Please post I would love to learn from your experiences as well. Dr. Irene you gave me a good reply on what I should do when I poused the Question "What should I do about the 29 years of marriage" and you said "Ignore them" at first I was a little incensed by that then I realized you stated that for my own good and I have been doing just that. I clung to pictures, memobilla and ect, I did not want to destroy all the written and visual memoies of my life with her but to succesfully move on I must. I ended up giving to my daughter all the material. She wanted them so I gave them to her. So that was good advice to give if not I would still be Teresas mental slave to her Narccism. Thanks Mr MIke

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday August 29, 2002
Time: 09:51 PM

S1

Sadly, I did fall in love with a Dana...and it was pure hell. She was very cunning, very pretty, and made me feel special...for a while. I tried everything to please her...and fell into the codependent trap pretty hard. It's taken 2 years to really be free...and there are still some days when I feel the pain. I suppose it's a lesson everyone (well, hopefully not everyone) must learn. But after having been treated that way, I know I could never put another human being through the pain and dehumanization. Alan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday August 25, 2002
Time: 01:02 AM

S1

Oh my God! You just described my 23 year old daughter Michelle! She is the oldest of 5 kids, and has a blatant disregard for all of them, and her father and I. I am ready to write her out of our lives for the time being anyway, because her immaturity, self-absorption, lack of feelings, love, etc. are wearing me down. Is there anywhere I can turn for help? Any book I can read? She would never admit that she needs mental help, but would it help if I could get her to go? If you can respond to this, I would so greatly appreciate it! Thank you, Dana  

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday August 18, 2002
Time: 04:19 PM

S1

Dr. Irene I just posted a response to "Marty" about some of these things. I've been in concilling for 7/10 years and one issue I'm so afraid of am I a narcisist?? I do the best I can with what I've got and yet feel like such a loser and yet my selfesteem says walk away it isn't worth it. I did for others that I should have done for myself and now am so tired that all I want is a little quiet place and be free to wander the globe an see all those things we've read about or the pictures of till I pass. I know that I'm messed up and have been for 9/10ths of my life,So what.. my bills are paid and I do the best I can to not hurt anyone yet let them hurt me, so my limits and boundaries are poor. I'm trying to be better and am working on it. C.M. Davis

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday June 27, 2002
Time: 05:15 PM

S1

I was just released by an inverted narcissist.She dropped me over the phone after two hectic years together and that was two years ago. .I was very angry but we never got to talk face to face.I insisted on a meeting recently .she avoided me until I blew up at her and said things I didnt want to say!I have been nothing but supportive in our relationship, but now she says she doesnt feel safe around me,and to stay away from her! Should I be crushed?

B1: Submit
Date: Monday June 24, 2002
Time: 08:20 PM

S1

Hello, Dr. Irene, I just read the above article and this lady, Dana reminded me of my mother in law. She shares all characteristics except that I don't know how much she lies. Is there any test out there to determine if she is truly a narccistic person?

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday June 18, 2002
Time: 08:42 PM

S1

I have a cousin that I grew up with who fits the description perfectly. The problem is I got her a job because I felt sorry for her. Now I am paying the price. Is there anything that I can do other than completely avoid her that can make a difference for me. Is there any help for her? Thanks for the information.

Mary

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday May 16, 2002
Time: 01:01 AM

S1

Although I know that I can't formally categorize people or diagnose people, I have been doing a lot of reading lately on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. My husband's parents are getting a divorce and their tale is rather twisted.

I guess about two years ago they(his parents M and T) entered marital counseling. Well, it seems that while this was going on, T was also "talking" with a single man over the internet. M asked her repeatedly and finally pleaded with her to give up these internet "romances"(there were many we found out). She just wouldn't. She would say that they were purely innocent and that M was in the wrong for wanting her to give up her much needed friendships. This may or may not be I honestly can't say but judging by the newest relationship I'm betting that they were more than innocent.

Well, this January everything got stranger. One of T's boyfriends, in fact her main one, came to visit. She called it being a "tour guide". We live in a small Midwest town, there really is no reason to come here except to visit family or friends. This man came from overseas.She spent a long while alone in his hotel room with him and even called her husband on the telephone while in the hotel room. How cruel is that?

This guy came and went and then M finally got fed up and filed for divorce. We were all agreeing that this was a good thing, they could just go separate ways and be happier.

Well, I have gotten a very good glimpse of a very confused and mixed up mother-in-law and I have finally come to a place where I can really make a decision on why she might be like this.At least some kind of category to place the stuff I've witnessed in.

This is a woman who ends any simple discussion that doesn't agree with her own opinions with a victim complex. This is a woman who tells her children that people have to respect their mother, HAVE TO, she is entitled to it. This is a woman that told her children that they were being brainwashed by their father because they were alarmed at the strange behaviors she was exhibiting. This woman has told me repeatedly that her husband is spying on her and reading her email. We have no reason to think this at this point. This woman still lives in the house with her husband that she is divorcing and took off on a 10 day vacation with her boyfriend and when she came back said that she didn't have the money to pay a lawyer. This woman went on a vacation and came back to tell her children all about it, she would never go on vacations with the family when they were little. This woman has started to attack her youngest son because he has expressed the fact that he doesn't respect some the things that she is doing. She is verbally abusing him now. This woman just recently copied and pasted a conversation I had with her over an internet instant messager and gave it to her lawyer without asking me if it was okay first. Then when I confronted her about it she pulled out her victim mask and played a victim claiming she had to do it to protect herself because I had mentioned some things I had discussed with M.I'm waiting for her to turn on me now.

All these things are barely the tip of the iceberg. My husband puts it, "My mom can be nutty." I came to wonder if I was nutty myself for thinking that this woman was a lot more than just being nutty. It is almost as if she has no empathy of any kind.

God Bless You.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday May 03, 2002
Time: 03:39 PM

S1

Yes, my 14 year old daughter is going this path. How can I help her? Marilen 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday April 26, 2002
Time: 08:12 AM

S1

I was married to one for ten years. We met through our careers. She encouraged me to branch out and expand my horizons (a trap) which I did. She later became discouraged in her line of work and wanted to join me in what I did. We formed a business, busted our asses for about five years to get it producing, made it grow and made a lot of money. I encouraged her to expand and grow, be all she could be, get out meet people and get involved in affiliations that benefit the business. I let her run away with all the glory and chose to take a back seat because I thought it would help her build self esteem ( something she confided in me early that needed inprovement). She convinced me to start a family to fulfill her needs of being a mother (I already had children from a previous). I gave everything I could give, support, knowledge, intimacy and a child. I let her take over the business because I thought it was helping her. She started having affairs with customers of the business and I caught her, she lied to me and I believed her, I caught her again and her Superego shot into place, I left my home to give her time to think about things and four days later she filed for divorce (no discussion about it, no reason cited), control of the business and of course control of the daughter for whom I had cared while she would partake in her lies. I was absolutely devastated. I have been through two years of counseling and never knew why until I read the information found here on the net. I had no idea of what I was married to, I had no way of knowing that I was in a trap and that the years of her mental abuse would take my entire life and dump it in my lap! She walked away without regard to anything I had ever done to build her up. Shea launched a smear campaign against me, garnered full support of her friends which is limited to employees and customers in doing so. She just married the customer I knew she was seeing before we split up. So all of the criteria here fits. My reason for posting this is to hopefully help someone else see what happened to me and help keep it from happening to them or someone else. If anyone has any input regarding co-parenting with a narcissist, I would appreciate it. I am determined to exhaust all efforts to give my child the love she needs, but I only have limited with the child to give it. I have established a no contact policy to avoid any continuing supply for the narcissist's needs. but I could use any advice. By the way, God has helped me, and it continues today!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday April 24, 2002
Time: 03:21 PM

S1

Holy S**t! This description is so right on I can't begin to tell you. This is her, this is exactly her. I have spent a lot of time on Sam Vankin's site which talks a lot about male Narcissists, but this really hit home. It's been a year since I left her and the pain is still incredibly intense. I was a best friend (I thought) and was very eager to help her -- and she took full advantage. I realized after a while I was just being used, and it was one of the saddest, most painful periods of my life. I am still getting through it. The bitch of it is, there is no revenge. I gave so much thinking she was a soul mate, and the whole time I was just being played. It makes me so angry I want to scream. This is so so so hard you have no idea.

K

B1: Submit
Date: Monday April 22, 2002
Time: 08:00 AM

S1

I was in a lesbian love relationship with a narcissist. Everything you wrote here was ABSOLUTELY the truth. I felt as though you had placed a recorder down by me as we had coffee as I related my story to you. Being in relationship with my N almost put an end to my life. I am paddling like crazy to pick up the pieces of my sanity and carry on. The cruelties were unimaginable as was the lack of any change in her behavior after knowing how serious the injury was to my spirit and soul. Hurting me was sport for her. Letting me down, disappointing me was the only surety upon which I could count. Her emotions turned on a dime and made my life and safety scary. I really loved the person she pretended to be. I loved her so much that it kept me in the relationship for over 2 years in hopes I might see that person again. I thought, for awhile, that she had MPD. Not so. There is a difference. Thank you for writing this.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday April 12, 2002
Time: 06:23 PM

S1

You just described my last 29 years 3 mos. 27 days on your article "The Female Narcissistic" that is when the divorce hit me. My ex-wife  I loved so much and in the end I discovered I loved a "Phantom". An ideal person that never existed she had me so wrapped around her web I never new she was literally sucking my life away. Even today after a full year I'm still in love and devastated by her. She is on with another victim as we speak "poor bastard" Is there any help you can suggest to me. Your final statement "May GOD help you". is soooooo!! true. Everyone fell in love with Teresa, even women. She could easily be a politician or a bad leader in some third world country. We had a family genealogy site. She took it over not by force but be her charm. But in the end she had an affair with two of my cousins and the whole thing blew up in her face. We could not believe she was capable of such actions. Believe me she is. Help me Doc. I'm bitten and I need to get over her. PS she thinks nothing of calling another woman's home asking where her husband is so he can come over [I was out of town] she as NO CONSCIENCE. I also believe she is almost a nymphomaniac. Thank you for the wonderful article IT HELPED!! I now know I'm not crazy. M.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday April 11, 2002
Time: 10:15 PM

S1

One characteristic that I would emphasize is that the female narcissist abides by no contract. She can promise one thing one day and then change her mind the next. She excuses it with a flip apology as if that were enough. She cannot stand to be around anyone prettier than herself. If she is around someone like that, she leaves immediately. She puts on a grand show wherever she goes to upstage everyone else (histrionic behavior).

B1: Submit
Date: Monday April 08, 2002
Time: 03:00 PM

S1

how can you tell which is the female white tiger?

B1: Submit
Date: Monday April 08, 2002
Time: 02:06 PM

S1

In response to $10,000,000.00 QUESTION.

What part of being # 4 is not UNDERSTOOD? Would you place yourself on a the railroad track and think that, at some point, a train would NOT run over you?

Run... then find out why you are attracted to this type of person. The pain will not get any BETTER.

Planettrout...been there, done that...

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday April 07, 2002
Time: 03:50 AM

S1

Oh my god I have fallen in love with just such a girl and I never thought I would come across such a through and vivid description of her she has at least ten guys madly obsessed with her and she has a boyfriend, not me. . We met when she had broken up with her last boyfriend in December. We had a "wild" time that night and then afterwards she said I was number 4 in a contest. The whole story is too long to share here, but in short she is VERBATIM the female described above, complete with the eating disorder.

The $10,000,000 question is what to do if you are already in love with such a girl ?!?!?!!?!?!?

I beg for a response !

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday April 02, 2002
Time: 08:52 PM

S1

I have a narcisstic mother and didn't know it until a few days ago when I started doing research. After 39 yrs of her "abuse" I quit speaking to her because I couldn't walk on the eggshells anymore and went into a deep depression for the last year , yet noone else saw the person I saw in her, except my dad whom she left when she was done with him, just like all her other husbands (5). I thought I was crazy cuz everyone admired her so. What a relief to finally find out the truth! Thankyou!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday March 26, 2002
Time: 09:35 PM

S1

I am currently having trouble, who am I kidding I have been having trouble with my narcisstic sister in law for 12 years...her latest escapade has thrown me over the edge...the question is how do I deal with it? My marriage is affected because my husband and mother in law are enablers...I am currently not even allowing myself to be around her, but for the sake of my marriage have agreed to do some counseling to learn to deal with her majesty...any suggestions...

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday March 26, 2002
Time: 06:41 AM

S1

I have so many issues going on in my life right now, I don't know if I'm a narcissist or not. Can a person be a narcissist and co-dependent? If I am, how do I stop? Can you be a narcissist and have really low self esteem? Or just plain hate yourself? Please tell me.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday March 24, 2002
Time: 09:53 AM

S1

Frankly, I do not think it is always that obvious to spot these people (even when they are family members). Because some of the behaviors are so insidious, coupled with the underlying message growing up that "blood is thicker than water". And, in order to get that Narcissisitic Supply, I have experienced people who are very "normal" and "nice" for months, only later to demand your attention. When things don't go their way or if you don't completely agree with them, then the lashing out begins.....simply because having your own life, calls their behavior into question for them. Some of the info on "covert abuse" rings true here as well as stuff I've read on "toxic shame". Thanks for the chance to comment.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday March 23, 2002
Time: 02:36 AM

S1

I have had a girlfriend with this dis-order. Before 'purchasing' the DMS-IV Manual of Mental Disorders, I labeled her the ultimate Narcissist at the age of 16.

I am a very intelligent and surprisingly attractive young lady ... And yes, I too have the unusual extremity of 'low self esteem'. Now 29, and still living with my parents (because they were unhappy with the idea that I "Didn't" for five years) ... I used to take joy in beating my ex-boyfriend and his arrogant pre-law & pre-med friends in Jeopardy ease and laughter. But an odd child growing up ... I persistently asked my parents for 'permission' to use the rest-room till I was thirteen - when such a provision was never even insinuated! My mother an artist, my father rich/jock and both incredibly gorgeous and well off ... They fought all the time and were un-aware of their public displays of disdainment and reprimanding. She was raised by her mother after her father passed away when she was nine. I 'chose' to be her friend for the sole reason that she was a 'virgin' (something I had verbally given value to as well as herself) as opposed to the 'other' pretty girls who she, all of a sudden, start rating as a "5-maybe ... If she was a virgin, a 7 easily!" - I humored her. From the age of 15-25, I carried this burden on my shoulders - in turn, making me tense, constantly thinking of how I would diffuse the friendship. What kept me around? Her hours of tears and "Why Me?" phone conversations, which ended with "I don't know what I would do without you! I LOVE you sooo much! I tell you things that I would 'never' tell anyone ... Oh, booh, hoo ..." And, being spiritual as well, I said to myself "If a quarter of what she says regarding her love and need for me is true, I need to be here for her ... For nobody is perfect and this may be a type of 'spiritual' test of friendship on my part.

I was used in every way possible. Financially, emotionally ... Valuable time wasted ensuring her, doing her college paper/s, making sure I didn't allow her to catch me looking at her 'butt' through the mirror the second she came into to my room - took her pants off - and started checking herself out ... I 'had' to respond to this peculiar body language of hers with total and most of the time, phony 'and' unique positivity, like: MY! Who is this gorgeous girl! Is there a Playboy Model on this planet who would not pay thousands once they took a look at you!" She, sincerely, would just all of a sudden put her finger to her mouth and behave and sound like 'Betty Boop' or 'Tweety Bird'. "Awwwe! Poor little o' 'baby' - 'waby' tortellini likes my b-o-w-d-y!" Ending with a gleaming smile that was absent when arriving, due to her "unappreciative" friends/family, environment ... etc. The sense of freedom I gained when I told her "straight" off after ten years of knowing her is still immense, now - four years later! Just hearing the word 'narcissus' or anything related to makes me sick! She showed her claws after I raised the courage to say what was on my mind, by saying "Okay! Okay! FINE! You paid 'that' time ..." - "ALL the time 'Cindy'!" - "ALRIGHT THEN! A-L-L the time!! BUT YOU OFFERED! And even though 'I' was working most of the time and you weren't, I don't know 'why', but you 'ALWAYS' had money ... I mean, I don't know why, but you 'ALWAYS' seemed to have 'sooo' much money ..." Reason being that the very 'few' men that saw past her veneer - my true and best friends - went out of her way to infuriate her when they saw how my stories of a 'bottomless pit of vanity' did not conflict with her attitude. The minute she came over or was coming over, my few good male friends would 'accidentally' show up - asking what I was doing, showed interest, and ended the meeting with "Well, here is some money ... No, take it Jane! Serious! Have a fun day!" $200, or $100 ... Money that I knew was given for that very reason as well that I made sure I paid back!

The outcome? Still not better off than if I would have cut the friendship short at an earlier age. For no matter how attractive, how smart, how many times men go out of their way to show their interest in me ... I played the role of the 'provider' or the 'boyfriend' for ten years. I end up feeling masculine by practice, and habitually give when I do not necessarily need to! Sad thing is ... Such people may have a tremendous amount of torment inside. How much more than myself, who learned countenance at a young age? I honestly do not know ... But her 'fantasy land' masking brings in the 'easy', inexperienced and vulnerable men/people in and keeps the abusers out!

How's that for a happy ending.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday March 22, 2002
Time: 10:03 AM

S1

Paula here: Boy have I run into quite a few of these people. My question is: How can anyone be so cold and calculating? But it is very easy to see through this facade after a few meetings with this person. It is as if something is missing in this person. And that is the ability to care and really love another human being. 

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday March 12, 2002
Time: 04:56 PM

S1

Hi Theressa,

I'm sorry it didn't work out with your new guy. I wonder though: don't you think he might have been a bit more patient with you? Anyway when you've been hurt before, it's surely natural to be cautious about opening up to someone in certain respects. If that turns out to be overcautious, as it often will, that tells you something about where you stand, so that you can continue moving closer to the ideal next time. I know it's more complicated than that, but there's something else too about people-pleasing:

If you feel you can't say NO to something, then you can't truly say YES either!

But don't worry, this went better to begin with, and you'll have plenty more opportunities. I'll send you mail when I get a moment.

And a big Hi to Tim as well!

Take care,

- Gordon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday March 11, 2002
Time: 04:30 AM

S1

Dear Poster,

What attracts us to those who to have low self esteem and operate out of fear:

Fear of alone time. (Is actually building up skills time, replenishing time, time to find out what one likes, needs, loves, doesn't like) This way we then can make time to share, to have laughter and fun.

The balance should be Time to find me, balanced with time to share me. AND time for others to find themselves, AND Time for them to share themselves with me.

Fear of making own decisions. (I know what works for me) And I can take small steps.

Fear of not being able to do tasks. (I can ask for help in learning new skills)

Fear of not being liked and having people to turn to when I can't do tasks.

Fear of being empty and having nothing in ones life without others (One can go out and meet others, and participate with others one just has to put one foot infront of the other and share)

Fear of anger. (Others, and ones own, when one doesn't know what to do, since they feel yuk again)

Fear of not knowing that anger is just another expressing their preference. (One does not have to feel forced to do what is not good for them. They can remove themselves from the toxic situation.

Not having a plan of small steps. Knowing what you can do on your own, or with the support of other nurturing people.

Not taking care of oneself. Rest, sleep, removing oneself from harm, learning new skills, eating well, caring for ones hygiene and ones clothes and possessions.

Hope this helps you change the things YOU can change which are those listed above. BUT accept you can't change another person, or make them think or behave differently. When you can do things that make you laugh.

Laughter is food for the soul.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday March 10, 2002
Time: 01:47 PM

S1

To the previous poster,

How one deals with a fault finding and abusive woman/person:

Call a time out,get into PERSONAL recovery and uncover, discover and discard those things INSIDE of you that attract YOU to that kind of person. Water seeks its own level.

I need to remember, it was me doing the picking!

Trubble, How about planetsalmonoid or planettrubble? Both of my daughters are planets: planetnadia and planetspazz01...each of us is working on BECOMING a full circle, in our own way and in Big Guy's time...

Love,

Tim B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday March 10, 2002
Time: 12:03 PM

S1

Do any of you have a relationship with a woman who constantly finds fault with the man in her life, and points it out to him in a harsh and unconstructive way? How as a man who loves her can he deal with it?

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday March 09, 2002
Time: 11:50 AM

S1

Theressa,

I emailed you yesterday and as a precaution ( sometinme my emails go bouncing around out there in cyberspace}, I wanted you to have mine). Just keep the CAT away from my door!!!

Tim B. planettrout@excite.com What a riot Tim! Trubble wants your email name!

B1: Submit
Date: Friday March 08, 2002
Time: 10:12 AM

S1

Is there anyone out there who has a reasonable relationship with a NPD person???? Even though I have my doubts about SAM he seems to have some success with interacting with normal people....Or is he manipulating us???? I am an old romantic male who doesnt like to dump people in distress. I am also the person with a nine year relationship with a fem NPD/BPD/PTSD...I guess I am still in love with her false self, who was the perfect partner for me when this all started...There still are some good times (when she is sleeping mainly) when we both seem to enjoy each other. I have not spoken to her in three months, after she (verbally)attacked me and my family in public. I am considering reestablishing communication with her because I am concerned about her well being and want to help if i can...Can one just be a friend to an NPD without being used by them?? Thanks in advance for any comments, Romantic Jer

B1: Submit
Date: Friday March 08, 2002
Time: 07:35 AM

S1

Hi All,

Love to you to TimB,

I agree it is about attention. The me, me, me who trusts no one else. Since to have friendships you have to share and listen to others. BUT THE my way, my way, Oh my way.

I noticed old timers who feel shaky in their worth and have overly perks, but who have few friends, but manipulate the system by getting on all the right committees. They try to block those of us who are creative and are trying to get on.

I only have one more narcisstist to rid from my life. I know why this person is still in my life. It is because I am still working on becoming secure. I think as I strength my boundaries in this area as with the other areas this person will go from my life.

My neighbour has gone with all her toxicity, my ex and I are on better terms. There is only one more person and hopefully if God will allow then that person to will be out of my life.

WHEN you have narcissists in your life, it is so DRAINING on your energy resources. However, I also think if you give too much attention to the Narcissist by dwelling on how they behave etc you waste a big part of your life.

Being secure by not caring what perks they have, instead by concentrating on learning new skills, even when they try to stop you getting on. Not being so focused on the Narcissists and what benefits they are manipulating. Not letting the narcissists attempts to block your progress stop you. Not concentrating on just stocking up material things or perks but instead enjoying every moment of ones life. Knowing the narcissist lives in constant fear which motivate their behaviour that the fear that someone is going to grab what they've got.

Its a shame that they don't know no one can take anothers worth or spirit if they are secure about what they believe to be the right decisions. Secure in knowing what one can do. Knowing what one wants and knowing the steps to take to get there. Even in fear taking some steps. Being proactive.

Though Fear runs lots of our lives. Avoidance is our coping mechanism. Trying would be much better if only one could get over the huddle and sit and do the task.

I say the nacissist also manages to secure enough power and authority so that no matter how much you stand up to them, YOU end up looking like a trouble causer.

THE only way then is to walk away! To get out of the narcissists environment.

I think the narcissist is run by FEAR. Though I also so think that the victim is also run by fear.

Tim B and Gordon will you both e-mail me so we can talk about growth. 26Ther@altavista.co.uk

DOC I want to thank you for making me understand.

Take care all of you Theressa

~little money but lots of love

B1: Submit
Date: Friday March 08, 2002
Time: 02:02 AM

S1

My definition of narccisist...male or female

Totally self centred, self serving and without any awareness of the impact they have on others....

I don't think whether they are in the workplace, home, male, female or a cat comes into it. They are just what they are and there is a whole healthier world of non narcissists to relate to.

Had a brush up with a Dana yesterday.....she really tried to put me down. Gosh did it feel good to realise she was no longer the one with the power....

Although of course she will still believe she has it.

It is when you realise that the narcissist stands alone and friendless and untrusted that you realise how sad and in need of help they are....

love Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday March 07, 2002
Time: 05:03 PM

S1

Dr. Irene and trout lovin' cat,

I was looking over the book list and another title came to mind which has helped me understand some of the experiences I was having with my X. "Emotional Incest Syndrome", and I believe the author is Pat Lake.In the book, she talks about the "chosen child" and the difficulty in establishing emotional or spiritual intimacy with such an individual.

My X certainly fits the profile of an individual with NPD. Much of it may have been related to being a " chosen child". She was the oldest, by nine years, in an Asian family in which the parents marriage was "arranged".She became Mom's confidant. The father was the "ghost parent".

Although still married, her parents maintain separate bedrooms. The father has moved out of the house on numerous occasions for up to two years. Nobody was supposed to reveal this. Each of the three children in the family has gone through a divorce; the marriages lasted , in decending order, thirteen, eight and three years.

This is a family full of secrets. The grandfather( father's side) brought his wife and five children to the US from Shanghi just before takeover, left them in San Francisco and went back to Hong Kong where he promptly started another family.

My X was raised by her grandmother (Empress Dowager) for the first two and a half years while her Mother finished college and her Dad was in the Air Force. Her mother went to the grandmother at least three times asking to be let out of the marriage contact (symtomatic of Asian cultures) and was refused.She shared her frustration and resentment with her oldest daughter, Jean.

When I met my X, she was a runner-up, Miss California, starred in a Saturday Morning kid's show and was a regular fixture at Hef's mansion in Holmby Hills. She had been living with the drummer for a huge band (still is today) from the Windy City. This guy was separated from his wife, also Asian, and was doing the " I'll take my hand off of that rung when I know this hold is secure".

I was told, by her mother, that most of her BF's had lavished her with expensive gifts and that , in one instance, one fellow had given her a new Pontiac Firebird which she did not want to return after their relationship (2 weeks) ended.

The first year we were together, I took her to Aspen where my oldest daughter, then 9, would be flying into Denver to meet us from Frankfurt. On the Sunday moring that I was to pick her up, I heard " You love your daughter more that you love me!" She refused to go to the airport and sulked for the next week.

I was told, "I NEED ATTENTION!" ( I believe verbal abuse IS about getting/demanding attention)

This and much, much more occurred BEFORE we got married. "Hello", go look in the mirror. Who missed the red flags? Who did not know what a red flag was?

I also happen to agree with the poster who stated that once one begins to relate to a narcissist in a manner that is SELF respecting, loving and honoring - the narcissist has ALREADY left the building, searching for a new SOURCE.

The lesson for me has been: "When I speak to the dis-ease, the dis-ease won't hear me, when I listen, I hear the dis-ease. Stop seeking form over content, style over substance.

Gordon and Theressa...love ya'

Yours in TROUT HEAVEN,

Tim B.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday March 07, 2002
Time: 10:47 AM

S1

is a narcissist? is it another name for a verbal abuser?

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday March 06, 2002
Time: 12:24 PM

S1

I find the narcissistic addition to the site interesting. There seems to be some confusion about why this is here and about the way of dealing with a narcissist.

First off since “Dr Vakadin”, or whatever he calls himself, is a self proclaimed narcissist, just by putting his “information” here on Dr. Irene’s site, probably is giving him a thrill. Look at all the attention he is getting.

I use the term “Dr.” when addressing Vakadin lightly because my narcissist sister also calls herself Dr.Blank Blank and tells people she has 2 doctoral degrees and I know for a fact that she has about 10 college credits, period.

Remember narcissists are pathological liars.

I am wondering if what is making people so angry about this is that the good “Doc” is being given space on the site and then the bluntness of what to do to “get along” with a narcissist?

The best way to deal with one is not at all.

To them, you aren’t a person. They are the parasite and you are the host. Simple as that.

Maybe people are thinking that there is hope of these people changing their ways but don’t count on it.

The truth about this is blunt.

When you change the way you react to a narcissist, it will be shocking to you how quickly they can dump you off and move on to the next source.

So sure you can yell, scream, refuse to cow tow to their demands, but then they won’t be getting their fix from you anymore, so it will be bye bye toots and they will find the next “host”

There is no “real relationship” to be had with a narcissist because they aren’t capable of having a “normal” relationship.

I am not saying it is easy to just walk away from someone you care about. It took more than 30 years to get to the point of walking away from my sister forever.

SWAF

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday March 06, 2002
Time: 12:03 PM

S1

Thank you Dr. Sam and Dr. Irene for these great articles on narcissists. Last year I spent hours reading Dr. Sam's site, and the advice and knowledge helped me a lot. I am convinced my brother is a narcissist. He also fits the description of paranoid personality disorder, but as Dr. Sam explained, narcissists are paranoid because they think everyone is like them! Thanks again for these articles. (I like Wayne Misner, too.) Sis

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday March 06, 2002
Time: 02:57 AM

S1

Hi All,

Maybe the message is that ITS NOT THE WAY YOU RESPOND, IT IS HOW YOU RESPOND AND THE RESULT THE RESPONSE GET YOU.

So consciously doing something to get a better end result maybe the point. Acting out is behaving unconsciously and raging. Whereas perhaps if you worked out a strategy, say to shock the other person. YOU ARE NOT PLAYING THE SAME GAME. This may actually make the narcissist treat you differently.

People learn how you respond, if you then change the way you respond to them, eventually they may try a new tactic themselves, however, some may not change since the way they behave is habitual.

I would say I'd stay away from naricssists and not deal with them at all. All these learned behaviours of acting in life are just that LEARNT. So say you always give in and rationalise to yourself.

e,g Your body is telling you not to do something, but you start to tell yourself that it isn't fair on the other, it is hurtful. So you end up doing for them even though it hurts you in the end. ONE day you realise this pattern, so you decide to TELL YOURSELF the truth, that you always end up hurt when you rationalise yourself in to helping the other when it results in you getting hurt.

Okay so the one you won't help may rant, and rave, but you don't end up feeling such guilt and emotionally beating yourself up because of the consequences.

I guess staying neutral around a narcissist is best. Not buttering them up nor getting involved in criticising them, just disengaging and keeping out of their way.

Just my two cents Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday March 04, 2002
Time: 03:57 AM

S1

Wow, So glad Gordon is back!!!

The new guy is now the past guy. It just didn't work out. My fears as you put it ruined things!!

My fears of sharing my needs and fear of rejection and my inability to LIVE my life got in the way again.

I just worry too much and think far, far too much. What is a girl to do?

I was brought up to hold back, my new male friend is the sort to come right out and request his needs be met. He is straightforward and to the point. He says life is for enjoying so enjoy. He told me I was too bothered about analysing my life that I'd never live it.

We parted company after that. I never saw my insecurities so plain before in my life, the conflict between sharing and rejection seems so big for me.

Hope to speak to you soon Theressa

Date: Friday March 01, 2002
Time: 12:49 PM

S1

Interesting stuff! I should come back and read this site more often. Hi Theressa, still around? How are you doing? OK, I just took a look in the Catbox. Good luck with your new guy! :-)

I'm wondering why nobody's trying to answer anybody's questions here. It's like an echo chamber. I see this big issue about "getting down and dirty" with a narcissist that several people are concerned with. What are the sources of confusion? I see three.

First, why are people told not to "act out" feelings by tearing someone down or raging at them? It's not because any behavior is "inherently" bad. It's because doing that doesn't usually get a good result! And that's the whole point: not to act on our feelings willy-nilly, but to take considered courses of action that get the results we want--including the interests of others, of course--and to do this when necessary independently of what we're "feeling," which is only data to be taken into account along with everything else. That's the goal: to get a good result.

We may act on loving feelings by giving someone a hug--but usually that also gets a good result. If we rage at them because we're mad, then except for unloading anger, that usually gets a bad result: they won't listen to us, they may retaliate, we may hurt them when we didn't really want to, and so on. That's all.

But it doesn't follow that the result of raging is always bad. And there are other feelings besides anger--such as lust, or guilt, but also fear. It doesn't always do to act on any of those either, even on sympathy. The "people-pleasing" you've talked about for instance, Theressa, is acting on fear: that if we don't "please people" all the time, they won't love us, they'll be hurt, they won't do what we want in return. But that isn't necessarily true, and acting on this fear gets a bad result if people impose on us, don't respect us, and so on. That's one factor in this narcissist issue. People may not deal with a narcissist effectively because they fear it will bring retaliation, when we're being told that can be untrue: the narcissist will often crumble instead. That ex of yours could also use standing up to: not in the sense of tearing him down, but if he treats you with contempt, you can certainly afford to remind him, calmly and with dignity, that "I've done my best for you, and I don't deserve this treatment."

The second source of confusion may be that tearing down a narcissist on purpose is, after all, hurtful behavior, and people may be constantly getting the message here that "hurting people is always bad no matter what." But what makes "hurting someone" a cardinal sin in itself? The point is to get a good result in the end, and sometimes we can't avoid hurting people to do that. For instance, even when we do care about someone, we may want to tell them something they don't want to hear, something that may hurt to hear, but something we think they need to know anyway. "Tough love," as it's called. It's still a considered course of action. That was one of my disagreements with the philosophy here, above all with the notion of a "safe place" where it's considered so supremely important never to risk conflict or hurting anybody, even at the expense of learning. If somebody says something that upsets someone else, they're often asked if they were acting on some feeling or other (usually anger), not what result they were trying to achieve, and whether or not they got it.

This issue with the narcissist of course isn't about caring; it's about the ethics of self defense, pure and simple. Self defense (in whatever form) is something we hope we don't have to do too often in life, but when it's necessary, we do have a right to "shoot down" an attacker if we have no alternative. I dare say not doing so could be a case of "acting out guilt"! If we use words or rage to "shoot a narcissist down," he (or she) probably won't take our message to heart, but that's beside the point. We got the result we needed, self-protection, and couldn't have done anything better.

Normally in a relationship (of any kind) we give someone friendship or love, because that nurtures the person and the relationship. If the relationship "isn't working," then we simply disengage from it. But what if we try to disengage and the person won't let go? The answer, broadly, is fight or flight: advance on the other person to drive them away, or retreat ourselves. But if we fight, will they flee, or will they counterattack? If we flee, will they let us go, or will they pursue? Which is more likely to get disengagement, the result we want? The recommendation here is that with a narcissist, "fight" can often get a better result; that's all.

This is the last poster's issue, and this third point is all about predicting people's behavior in response to what we do. Is it "dangerous" to advise someone to risk getting a narcissist all riled up? This is not only a concern for women, because men too can be victimized by enraged women, with everything from divorce court ripoffs to lethal weapons--remembering Jean Harris and countless others before and since. Not that I know whether they were narcissists or not, but that's irrelevant. However, everything we do can entail a risk of some kind, especially with an abusive person whose responses may be hard to predict. So this recommendation must be seen in perspective alongside the reality that the way people act by default can carry a still greater risk.

It would be futile to pretend that women (and men) in abusive relationships don't already act, very often, in ways that put them in needless yet serious danger. I found a prime example on this site, right here: http://drirene.com/perfect_man.htm. The actions of this woman named Cara, by "hiding" from her very violent abuser all evening and then returning to him, might have gotten her killed. We can understand why she did this, from a mixture of fear and procrastination, a natural desire for freedom and pleasure (however temporary), and no doubt a dose of resentment as well. But never mind all these feelings, however much we sympathize with her; they're unimportant beside the fact that if she'd only known or thought about it, his violent reaction to her behavior was utterly predictable. Assuming she wasn't actually inviting conflict or punishment for some twisted reason--which would be mere speculation--then she could have acted differently to protect herself from being badly hurt. I sure hope she did get out of this "relationship" reasonably intact. And plenty of people in abusive relationships are already acting on anger--or fear--whatever result that gets them, which is usually worse rather than better.

Yet as we well know, it's not always possible to predict how people will react to what we do; far from it. I certainly noticed that on this site more than anywhere. Mind you, if people were perfectly predictable I'm sure they wouldn't be as fascinating to us. Would we want a partner who never surprised us, for instance? :-) However, we always need to learn more about how certain people react, and when the stakes are high--physical safety, say--we especially need to predict the likelihood (though it's never a certainty) of a particular response. They may not do what we'd expect based on what we "think" we know of them, and especially on what we know of ourselves, because they probably think and feel in a different way.

To me this is only stating the obvious, but what I've seen from this site, as well as common observation, is that like anyone else, different kinds of "abusers" may react in opposite ways to the same behavior. Some people get mad if a partner resists or stands up to them, let alone insults them, and may become violent. Appeasing them is the only way to stay safe--temporarily. Other people actually seem to get madder at a partner who "caves in" and acts "weakly" or passively, for reasons I need not go into. Confronting them on the other hand can make them back off, apologize, or even collapse.

Women especially are often taught in some situations to "run away, run away" (like "bold Sir Robin" in Monty Python's "Holy Grail"). Not only is that often unnecessary, it may not always be what keeps them safer. David and Goliath taught us a lesson as well. So I'll take Sam at his good word as a personal expert on narcissism. All he's telling us is what's more likely to get the result we want from a certain type of person. I can't quibble with that.

Munchausen's by proxy, wow! If narcissism is the ultimate form of an abuser's "me-me-me" orientation, then Munchausen's by proxy is a supreme form of narcissism: children used as objects, mere stage props to be manipulated or even destroyed without compunction to keep the spotlight focused on Medea, the star of the show. Come to that, what are the most suitable careers for a narcissist? Public entertainment has to be one of them. Is that why so many stars of stage, screen, and music have messed-up relationships? Then there are politicians and others who keep themselves publicly visible and cultivate a "fan club." In a darker vein, how about cult leaders like Jim Jones, who acted like the Messiah--and for all I know, expected to "rise again" after his cyanide crucifixion.

Anyway it must be frustrating trying to influence close relatives who may be harming their child. It's hard to know what to say. I will point out that if this guy is reporting your contact attempts to his wife, even though it makes her rage, that unfortunately suggests he's annoyed by them too and only getting her to sympathize. His remark that "everything she is doing is normal and will 'get better'" is a striking self-contradiction. If she's "normal," why does she need to "get better"? I'd say he's holding out a fantasy that she'll improve, and he hates to hear what you've got to say about reality, because that only blows his fantasy to shreds.

So I'd be careful not to come across as too blunt or critical to him, because he's only going to reject your message. By all means convey to him that you're there to support him no matter what. I don't see how you can attack this situation head-on. If you do think this child is being harmed, is it possible to talk with the child's physician, for instance? Are there any friends or colleagues at all through whom you can exert influence discreetly? If his wife does leave him, be ready to jump in at that point when he needs support. Other than that, I'd pray the Serenity Prayer. Good luck!

For the F2M TS: What a neat solution, if you don't mind my saying so, for two transsexual people who have both "been that route" (if in opposite directions) to marry one another. It's got to be a tough row to hoe. What I wonder is, do you have any other evidence that your wife might be narcissistic? It seems to me that plain old defensiveness is enough to explain her behavior in public. But has she really "changed her gender identity"? I should think all she's changed is her sex, to match her existing gender identity. But that means she's finally able to express an identity she was never fully able to express earlier in life. She never had a real girlhood, for instance. People do react in different and sometimes opposite ways to the exploration of a new role, fluctuating between unsureness in the role (like your own) and in-your-face brashness (like your wife's). Think of the Terrible Twos, the Ferocious Fours, and especially the early teens, which are all about the discovery of identity and experimenting with newfound powers. Or even of a newly promoted manager, who may at first feel uncomfortable asserting his authority and keep trying to be "one of the boys," or conversely, start throwing his weight around--until he settles down in the role.

I hope your wife feels more secure in time, and you too. What strikes me is that, far from showing narcissistic traits, she could afford to develop one of them for balance. Specifically, the "studied cool," tacitly expecting acceptance from others, and being surprised if it's not given. If necessary, the raised eyebrow afterwards is more effective than the shrill protest before.

Maybe you could encourage her to do this, and if somebody makes a mistake about who you both are, maybe you could compensate by getting a little more assertive yourself and murmuring in a casual but convincingly deep voice (if hormones have helped) that "I'm her husband." (The TS part is nobody's business.) It's all a matter of expecting to be accepted in a role. I remember one occasion myself when I was sitting at a restaurant table opposite my wife and a waiter came up behind me and said "What would you two ladies like?" It must have been my fault for wearing my hair long at the time, and maybe I had my shoulders hunched over funny or something. I wonder if some men would be offended by this. I found it amusing, because the moment the waiter got in front of me he realized his mistake. When people make mistakes like that they're usually more embarrassed than we are! :-)

Possibly your wife has other "narcissistic" traits you didn't mention, but I hope you won't match anyone to what looks like a symptom of "narcissism" and conclude that they may be a narcissist, or anything else. I've seen a fair bit of that on this site myself, and to me it's a kind of hypochondria. It's like picking up a medical book and saying "oh, coughs are a symptom of lung cancer," then imagining someone has every disease under the sun, when all they've got is a tickle in the throat. So if you're a happy, productive couple as you say, and get on well together, there's probably nothing to worry about.

And thanks, Tim, for "the emotional depth of a cookie sheet." That's priceless!

Good articles anyway, all of them. Take care, everyone! :-)

- Gordon MacD. (a.k.a. the Dreaded Anonymous Bosch)

Date: Thursday February 28, 2002
Time: 12:27 PM

S1

I'm posting here regarding the most recent article by Sam Vankin, Feb.25,2002, "Divorcing the Narcissist". I originally came to this site because it had helpful information and validation for what was occuring in my life. It was professional, informative and I felt I could trust the site and the information. However, this last article has me very concerned for some of the women who read this. This advise to confront the narcissist on his level, down and dirty, sounds like some people may just put thier lives in jeporady! I don't think this is safe advise at all, pissing off a narcissist! What is the safety valve for each individual? And if gradiose ideas come into play, getting away with physical violence just might be in the realm of believable to them. Dr. Irene, why so many articles on narcissism anyway? This is only a posed question, my real concern lies in the hostile advise and the potential for life-threatning consequenses.

Thank you

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday February 27, 2002
Time: 02:10 PM

S1

I think there are more female narcissists out there than most people realize. They've just been called other things! I know someone who is very narcissistic. She is smart enough to know how to cover her tracks, by reading psychology books, going to workshops on communication, self-improvement, etc. She uses more psycho-babble than any mental health professional I've ever met. She is always giving advice, psychoanalyzing others, and interpreting others' behavior and feelings (from her own warped perspective, of course!), apparently in an attempt to make herself look superior.

Date: Tuesday February 26, 2002
Time: 05:17 PM

S1

what should family of a male who is being abused by a female wife do?The point has been reached where all conntacts w/family and friends has been severed and we are not allowed to talk on phone w/him or visit .She threatens to leave him and take their child w/her overseas,also he now has come to believe we are mean and disrespectful to his wife and everything she is doing is normal and will "get better ".Meanwhile she is alternately nice and charming and gets anger fits if she finds out we tried to contact him at work.Please reply should we not try to contact him or should we continue to talk and make him somehow feel we are trying to help and are there for him .This has been going on for over 2 years.Please help I don't know if this is the right space to post. will check for reply later.Even the child I feel is a case of Munchausen's.B/c the child is diabeticwe have noted that she is reported more sick by our son whenever we talk w/him at home and wife does not like that so to avert her husbands attention she either gives too much or too little of insulin .

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday February 23, 2002
Time: 07:51 PM

S1

My 84 year old mother-in-law is a Dana. It is sad to see. She is also in the very early stages of senile dementia. Even in her growing confusion and forgetfulness, though, she has not lost her ability to quickly and deftly pull a manipulation tactic out of her large arsenal. It amazes some of us how within seconds, she knows just which tactic to use and which person(s) to target. When it comes to manipulation and games, she's as sharp today as she was when she was a young woman. The same is true of her charm. She hasn't lost her edge when it comes to turning on the charm and drawing attention to herself.

The one thing she is losing, however, is the number of suppliers in her web. The only people remaining in her web are her 2 adoring "boyfriends" (both in their 80's), her 3 sons, and her one female friend. Just like Dana, my mother-in-law's only female friend is a childhood friend who is very meek and passive. I think my mother-in-law's dwindling number of suppliers is frightening to her. At any time, one or both of her boyfriends and her one female friend could be out of the picture because of their health problems; two of her 3 sons live out of state; and the one son who lives here (my husband)is very busy and not always instantly available. Not only that, every once in a while, he surprises her (and me) by resisting her manipulation tactics. Sometimes he leaves her with egg on her face. Her daughter freed herself from the web a few years ago, and little by little, each in their own way and time, her 9 grandkids have left the web, too. Once they became young adults, they began to see Grandma in a different light. Those of us who married into the family (i.e., her in-law children) have only been in the web sporadically. We haven't been very good suppliers over the long haul because we don't admire her and are not often charmed or fooled by her.

There are books for and about children of the self-absorbed. I hope that someday there will be something for grandchildren and in-law children of the self-absorbed. It's a tricky road to navigate - - trying to be properly respectful of your grandparent or your spouse's parent, while trying to keep your own boundaries (and sanity) intact.

When my mother-in-law dies, I probably will not so much mourn her passing as I will her inability to have lived a full and rich life. What a sad personality disorder NPD is.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday February 21, 2002
Time: 09:59 AM

S1

Is a Narcissistic, another name for an abuser? I am just confussed.

Thanks Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday February 20, 2002
Time: 03:03 PM

S1

A sis-in-law who thinks the world revolves around her. Very blonde, big haired, tanned and athletic. Went shopping and she spent $300 mostly on herself (we went to a big clearance sale--she did not buy clearance). Many men over the years--alot of them losers who adored her(?) Lashed out at church for their disapproval of her for living with a man (she later got married in the same church) Lashed out at a supervisor who didn't give her the best evaluation (She supposedly got the supervisor to change the eval). Parents co-signed on car, furniture, bed, more(?) -- don't ever seem to show their disapproval except behind her back. Finally married nice man (sugar daddy). Parents are very pleased ("now her lifestyle will change, she'll settle down"). Continues to party and uses them for childcare. We had a disagreement with the parents about Christmas. For some unknown reason, they shared this with her. She began emailing us (without asking our side of the conflict) and told us how we were wrong and then signed her name as the "moderator". We replied that a true moderator hears both sides and she became hostile and called us "sarcastic". Called my young child a "dork" for what he was wearing (I was within earshot but in another room). Gave birth and is pregnant again -- continues her lifestyle: concerts, partying, played co-ed softball in 5th month until opposing players asked her to stop for fear of hurting the unborn baby, takes baby everywhere; concerts and other events (even sick with ear infections), and drinks alcohol while nursing. Says "sorry" and then proceeds to tell you why it's your fault anyway. Gave away most of our baby stuff (claims she wasn't told to return it)even tho that was said before the baby was born. Said in front of her parents that I was suffocating her hungry baby as she nuzzled when I held her. We confronted her (a couple months later, fearful of the fallout) and she said that we didn't tell her soon enough. At times, she alternates from "victim"--if you could just see my tears--to "aggressor"--I'm sure you're livid, I am too--to "preacher"--quoting scripture on how we need to forgive her..... The thing is, we forgive her--we're just like that--we do not want revenge, we have learned from this, but we don't desire a relationship with her. So we blocked her emails (she threatens to call but doesn't) and we received a note about her visit to Ground Zero and how she needs her family now. Any info on maintaining a "detached" perspective is appreciated.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday February 19, 2002
Time: 07:22 PM

S1

Dr. Irene and trout loving cat,

This IS a description of my former wife ( met when se was 23 - this resonates) who also happened to be an actress. I started to garner some clues when I read Charlotte Kasl's, "Women, Sex and Addiction". In her book, she describes women who spend endless hours putting on make up(mask). I remember my X sitting on the dry sink, doing just that. It also appeared to me, when we went shopping, that it wasn't the objects behind the glass that she was looking at, but rather, her own reflection.

My mother also,just happened to be an actress and a totally selfish and self-centered alcoholic.Can I say FAMILIAR?

My youngest, Ally, whom I've spoken about in the Catbox, started "acting out" in December. Tanking grades, depression, lower companions, verbal agressiveness and threats. She is currently in therapy and her mom is finally attending as well. Ally has confronted her mom about "lying" and not hearing her. Possibly, therapy will serve as a forum for both of them healing.I have been advised to keep my fingers out of the mix, express a willingness to attend sessions (done) and practice being a Dad.

My X was once described as having " the emotional depth of a cookie sheet", that was my experience...

Tight lines,

Tim B.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday February 19, 2002
Time: 04:18 PM

S1

I have had an on-and-off again 9 year relationship with a female who exhibits almost all the symtoms of NPD. She was diagnosed with BPD a few years ago but I suspect NPD is more likely her problem. I first thought something wrong when after her elder father died she showed no feelings other than cursing him for leaving her. She has not spoken to her adult children in 12 years and has not seen her 2 year old grandson and claims she doesnt know why they have nothing to do with her and she suspects her wx-husband has brainwashed them to think she is "crazy". Our sex life was hot and heavy while i was working in a prestigious job but after i retired she has become frigid and often verbally abuses me...when she goes into a rage she seems dangerous, like threatening to drive the car off the cliff when on a vacation a few years ago...I hate to end this relationship because she helped save my life when I was in dire straights....Is there anything I can do to help her...should i continue to just be there?....she is beautiful but her age is starting to show...she lives for her beauty and never walks by a mirror without looking at herself....her bedroom and living room walls are mirrored on one side from floor to ceiling....i hate tough love and i am desperate to help but not enable...thanks...jerry

B1: Submit
Date: Monday February 18, 2002
Time: 10:39 PM

S1

I enjoyed the article about the female narcissist. My sister is a narcissist. She has many of the traits that are described in the article.

She is overly occupied with herself. She thinks that everyone is looking at her. She thinks that all women are jealous of her and that all men want her. She dresses in very bizarre outlandish clothing and hair to attract attention to herself.

She thinks everyone owes her something. She doesn’t think she has to work or clean her home or do anything other than what she wants to do. She got married a few years ago and since she got married, she no longer drives, she refuses to go anywhere without her husband. She won’t even go to the mail box. She expects her husband to go to work and then come home and wait on her literally hand and foot and take care of the baby. He cooks, cleans, does the laundry and grocery shopping.

She whines, cries, charms and fakes illnesses to get her way. She gets people to give her money and things. She is charming as long as she has use for you but if you cross her then she becomes vicious and vengeful.

I have not spoken to her in more than 5 months because I stayed for about 2 weeks with her and she was so abusive towards me and my son we left.

She had accused me and my son of stealing her cz engagement ring which of course we didn’t. I barely even paid attention to it but she insisted I stole it because she knew that I had always been jealous of her ring. Anyway that is what she thinks. She told me that I have always been jealous of her. I hated to burst her bubble but I am not jealous of her.

She even made up some elaborate scheme where her husband came home and “surprised” her with a new engagement ring that he had put in layaway which was much bigger and better than he other one that I supposedly stole from her. She kept talking about it loudly and came in the kitchen and I was lying on the floor in the dining room relaxing and she started kissing him wildly in front of me. I thought they were going to do it right in front of me. I suppose she was trying to make me jealous but in reality it made me sick.

Then when my mother and I were out there visiting and my dad had called and the doctor had told him that he might have cancer. Instead of being concerned about our Dad and trying to comfort Mom, my sister sat there and pretended she had a fever for the rest of the day and evening. She sat there and took her temperature over and over about every 15 minutes for the rest of the day and whined and complained.

So that is just a small sample of what it is like to have a relative who is a narcissist. My solution in dealing with her is to not deal with her at all.

SWAF  B1: Submit
Date: Monday February 18, 2002
Time: 10:07 PM

S1

I enjoyed the article about the female narcissist. My sister is a narcissist. She has many of the traits that are described in the article.

She is overly occupied with herself. She thinks that everyone is looking at her. She thinks that all women are jealous of her and that all men want her. She dresses in very bizarre outlandish clothing and hair to attract attention to herself.

She thinks everyone owes her something. She doesn’t think she has to work or clean her home or do anything other than what she wants to do. She got married a few years ago and since she got married, she no longer drives, she refuses to go anywhere without her husband. She won’t even go to the mail box. She expects her husband to go to work and then come home and wait on her literally hand and foot and take care of the baby. He cooks, cleans, does the laundry and grocery shopping.

She whines, cries, charms and fakes illnesses to get her way. She gets people to give her money and things. She is charming as long as she has use for you but if you cross her then she becomes vicious and vengeful.

I have not spoken to her in more than 5 months because I stayed for about 2 weeks with her and she was so abusive towards me and my son we left.

She had accused me and my son of stealing her cz engagement ring which of course we didn’t. I barely even paid attention to it but she insisted I stole it because she knew that I had always been jealous of her ring. Anyway that is what she thinks. She told me that I have always been jealous of her. I hated to burst her bubble but I am not jealous of her.

She even made up some elaborate scheme where her husband came home and “surprised” her with a new engagement ring that he had put in layaway which was much bigger and better than he other one that I supposedly stole from her. She kept talking about it loudly and came in the kitchen and I was lying on the floor in the dining room relaxing and she started kissing him wildly in front of me. I thought they were going to do it right in front of me. I suppose she was trying to make me jealous but in reality it made me sick.

Then when my mother and I were out there visiting and my dad had called and the doctor had told him that he might have cancer. Instead of being concerned about our Dad and trying to comfort Mom, my sister sat there and pretended she had a fever for the rest of the day and evening. She sat there and took her temperature over and over about every 15 minutes for the rest of the day and whined and complained.

So that is just a small sample of what it is like to have a relative who is a narcissist. My solution in dealing with her is to not deal with her at all.

SWAF

B1: Submit
Date: Monday February 18, 2002
Time: 08:20 PM

S1

Yes, I once knew a "Dana"...just a few things that gave it away: Alternately fantasized about meeting the perfect prince who would spoil her rotten while she tried to manipulate her boyfriend into beating her by saying anything to get him angry. When he got angry, she'd blame him for being angry.

Acted extremely seductive; when a response was achieved, she'd claim she was being sexually harrassed.

Dressed very provocatively; tight skirts, no bra, low-cut tops...and constantly complained about men trying to hit on her.

Acted "helpless" in an effort to gain pity, especially from men.

Had virtually no female friends; the ones she did have were constantly criticized.

If she was ever called on her bad behavior, she'd shift blame, then howl in despair about what a terrible person she was, how no one understood her, and how she just wanted to be loved. If love was offered by anyone, they were criticized as being "sappy" or "corny".

Loved to feel helpless. Openly fantasized about being raped or otherwise forced to have sex, and believed that this was an "old-fashioned" quality. Making love was for idiots. Had a strong desire to be dominated as well as to dominate. Could not see relationships as equal give-and-take. This was seen as "stupid".

Yes, it really happened...

B1: Submit
Date: Monday February 18, 2002
Time: 12:28 PM

S1

I'm married to one... see the yak discussion board - women abusers.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday February 18, 2002
Time: 09:55 AM

S1

Yes, I used to know a "Dana"...here's just a small sampling of what she used to do. Dress provocatively (no bra, tight skirts, etc.) and then wonder why she was being hit on. Act seductive as a means of getting attention. When she got the attention, she'd complain of being "smothered". Openly fantasized about being forced to have sex, openly expressed a desire to feel "helpless". Openly fantasized about meeting a "sugar-daddy" who would "spoil me rotten". Believed it was her right to run roughshod over anyone who stood in the way of her pursuing this "dream". Constant complaints about how she never got what she wanted and how life was so unfair. When she got what she wanted, she didn't want it anymore, or would somehow sabotage it. When confronted with this, she'd launch into a rant about she was a terrible person. Constant criticism of her handful of friends; how they were all inferior and all had major issues, and how she deserved to have "better" friends than this. In reality, they all wondered why she was so distant and stand-offish. Would flirt endlessly to obtain male friends. When they expressed a desire for more than friendship, she find endless fault with them. Loved it when men treated her poorly or ignored her. She attributed this to her being "old-fashioned". Only desired men who ignored her. If they suddenly gave her attention, she'd do a 180 and despise them. Would frequently complain about how she just wanted love and attention. When it was offered to her, she'd immediately find fault with the person, or say that they weren't "good enough" for her.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday February 16, 2002
Time: 10:31 PM

S1

I'm a female to male transsexual, post op, therefore legally male, but I still look female. When I am out with my wife, who is a post operation, legal female now (male to female transnsexual) (confused? try being one) she feels she must inform every clerk and waittress we meet that we are transsexuals and that I am her husband. If they ask, "What would you ladies like?" she is affronted on my behalf. I've worked hard to get to where others' opinions don't bother me, and would rather not address the issue with strangers. It's not necessary, can be seen as rude, and isn't always safe. Your narcissistic profile made me think of this.. I wonder what changes there would be in a narcissistic person changing their gender identity? Other than that, we're a happy productive couple well-accepted in our community..

   B1: Submit
Date: Saturday February 16, 2002
Time: 12:01 PM

S1

there is a "dana" in my life, she is a woman with whom i work. she is extremely controlling. her "specialness", i believe, springs from her having been abused, sexually and emotionally, by her stepfather and mother. from what i know of her parents, both were flaming nacissists. she is also a recovering addict and alcoholic. she attends several 12 step programs and most everyone she meets learns of this shortly after being introduced. this "dana" of mine is my subordinate at work. she is blind, though not totally. she embraces her self determined victim status. she has a need to control everyone and everything, i believe, because she feels entitled at all times to preferential treatment because of that victim status. she can be quite charming, but she is like a ticking time bomb. she believes any problems she has are the fault of someone other than herself. her abuse is unbridled when provoked and absolutley anything or anybody can provoke her at any time. she has no conception of appropriate boundries in any situation. at first, people are charmed, impressed and dazzled by her abilities at work and "cutting" jokes. she is so competent and gifted at her job, many who first meet her have no inkling of her vision impairment. after knowing her for a period of time, one gets treated to her underlying self which is abusive, surly and dark. i have to work with this person and attempt to supervise her each day. it is truly an education and a challenge...a challenge that i would not mind doing without. however, i am very pleased to find this site. i know i have some personality issues myself because i always seem to find myself in situations with narcissists...i lived with one man in a horrific life for three + years. thankfully, i have escaped him. but now i have this female to deal with. of course, i cannot diagnose, but i would bet a bundle that this "dana" has npd. she is a rather masculine acting and appearing lesbian, so she does not use her beauty to control. i believe what she uses instead is her ability to do a very good job at work and her difficult life experiences. anyway, thanks for being here. not many people to talk to who understand...kris