Comments to Recognizing Abuse in Therapy
Material posted here is
intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute
for informed advice from your own health care provider.
Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos
Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for
non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For
commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 07, 2000
S1
My experience with 2 therapists: Impatience toward the victim, i.e., "Why don't you just stand up for yourself?" as if it were as simple as that. The abuse escalated when I (the V) stood up for my self. One therapist suggested simple anger management skills to the A. They didn't help. The other therapist managed the (single session) as if we had a dispute which could be resolved by talking about our differences. In neither case was the abuse recognized. The A continued to blame the V. The therapists operated as if A and V were equals, had equal power in the relationship and shared the blame for the "conflicts". When told about incidents of abuse, they bought into the idea that V must have done something to instigate it. Maybe because A presented a calm rational front in therapy while V became emotionally distraught. I went on blaming myself until I found this website. Ugh. I'm glad you found us. Welcome aboard. Dr. Irene
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 07, 2000
S1
We went to counseling after a particularly painful evening in which my husband belittled me in front of his brother and sister-in-law and I told him we had to go to a therapist or I would leave. We spent a year in largely unsuccessful couples therapy. Looking back now, I am angry, and feel that I was a victim of my husband's manipulations and the therapist's ignorance. Blame the professions rather than the therapist.
At first the therapist, after meeting with me once and getting a brief history, decided that because of the verbal abuse in my childhood that perhaps I was "too sensitive" - until I pointed out to her that both my sister-in-law and brother-in-law had told me they didn't know why I put up with my h. and that his comments often made them angry enough that they left the room. Why didn't she think that if I had been verbally abused growing up that perhaps I was in the same sort of situation now??? Blame the therapist.
Before I found this site, I had found something about how some people use communication to control, not communicate, and took it in. It seemed to me to be exactly what was going on, and we had been working on "communication." She dismissed it. She knew no better.
The therapist gave me the Patricia Evans book The Verbally Abusive Relationship to read, to see if there was abuse going on GOOD FOR HER! She gets points for that! , but what was happening was too subtle for me to see - except for the obvious put-downs. Yes. I honestly didn't know, even after a year of couples therapy, why felt so lousy, until I found Evan's second book, Survivors of Verbal Abuse Speak Out on the bargain table of our bookstore. My hand reached for it, although as I reached for it I was telling myself that the verbal abuse (the obvious stuff) had stopped. My hand was a lot smarter than I was--and smarter than the therapist! I opened it and everything the survivors wrote sounded like I could have written it! The day after buying the book I found this site, and it's helped me enormously.
I am now in counseling (alone) with someone recommended by the women's shelter. Getting stronger and less co-dependent, and seeing more each day. :) Thanks for sharing.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 08, 2000
S1
YES! My husband and I are now in therapy, both joint and individual, and are addressing our relationship as an abusive one. Thank god - since I am now seeing that he is beginning to use his tactics on our oldest child (3 years old). However, our first foray into counseling was just as bad as what has been described. When I complained that he treated me with contempt and rudeness, I was told that I was just too emotionally needy and that I needed to recognize that my husband just couldn't give me the intimacy I was seeking. I was also treated as if I was high maintenance for complaining about him - I was told that my husband had a right to vent some stress after work, that my home was HIS safe haven and if that was the only place he felt like he could truly be himself, I shouldn't take that away from him. My husband, who is the classic abuser - a real charmer outside of our relationship, came off as a great guy. Needless to say, I was VERY CONFUSED, and questioned myself even more after three months of that. We stopped going and after several months of searching for an answer, I stumbled across Dr. Irene's site. I now feel like my eyes are truly open for the first time in 7 years! I now know why I question every thought or opinion I have before, and even sometimes after, I say it. I now know why I have been avoiding social situations - because my husband has time and again told me that I can't handle myself properly in public. And, I have a lot of anger, not only at my husband who I see, right now, as a threat to my emotional well-being rather than a marriage partner, but also at the first therapist. He, without knowing it, actually contributed to it and validated my husband's actions! I actually would really like to go back and see him and tell him how "off the mark" he was and urge him to get some training in abuse issues!
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 08, 2000
S1
Dr. Irene:
I went to a Dr. LaXXX he is Sky's counselor and I left feeling angry and offended. He basically told me he sided with Sky because he knew him better. At least he was honest. Then when I would bring up an issue he would tell me "Men just don't do that". If Sky would bring up an issue he would tell me I needed to change.
I told this Doctor that Sky had hit me 5 times and his verbal abuse was terrible. He just ignored what I said. Sky left the session with his usual confidence that he is just a nice guy. No one sees his abuse except me. Dr. LaXXX does not understand abuse.
I have insisted on counseling for our relationship and every time Sky will recommend this Doctor. This guy is clueless and I told Sky I think he just tells you what you want to hear. Sky defends him and why not. Sky is a serious verbal and emotional abuser and here is a Doctor telling him he is ok. I said to Sky you filter the information you want him to hear. You should both feel OK with the counselor.
I think it is very hard for any counselor to see one person and discover the real issues. Sky is smooth in public. He is polite and a perfect gentleman. No one would ever know that in private he will torture the person who lives with him. An abuse counselor knows this...
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 08, 2000
S1
Dr. Irene:
I had a similar experience with "marriage" counseling. My husband and I have been married for 15 years. We entered into counseling as a last resort (I had asked my husband to leave.) because my emotionally and verbally husband refused to see that he had any responsibility for our marital difficulties.
I love to read, and about 1 1/2 years ago began reading and discovering that there was such a thing as verbal/emotional abuse. I felt so unhappy, depressed for years and years (have been medicated for about 4 years), and felt like there was something horribly wrong with me because no matter how hard I tried I could do nothing right. Then I noticed that I felt this way FOR YEARS!!! Whether I was working in a professional position, or at home running my day-care business, I didn't do enough, and never did enough right. No matter what happened, I was wrong. Everything was my fault....... I'll skip over all that, and just say that he agreed to go to counseling only after I asked him to leave, and basically told him there was no hope for our relationship. He went to counseling - only for 2 or 3 sessions. I felt unsafe there. I had to relive my worst moments and worst experiences with my husband in order to get the counselor to see that we didn't just have a difference of opinion over issues. He didn't see the abuse, and when I spoke up or interrupted to interject a thought, I was told to be quiet and let my husband speak. When I told the therapist I felt I couldn't be close to my husband and trust him entirely, because I had been hurt too often and too deeply by him, he addressed my husband and said "Do you feel that your wife has put you in a position where, if you make one mistake, you are out?" I couldn't believe my ears!
After the 2nd or 3rd session, we did not go back. My husband never brought it up again, until the next time I told him he needed to leave our home. I know in my heart that the things the therapist did, although well intentioned, were very damaging for me, as they made my husband feel totally validated in his behavior. At one point he told the therapist he could never abuse me, he could never hit me. The therapist responded that he could look in my husbands eyes and see that he was so in love with me and was not that type of person.
Several months later we were on a family trip to a corn maze where we were joking and having fun (or so I thought). I joked about my husbands' leading us down the wrong path several times, and jokingly gave my 7 yr old son the "leader" title. For the first time in a long time I was genuinely having fun and meant no harm by my poking fun. My son was thrilled and ran ahead of his dad, stopping to wait for us at the next turn. As I approached my husband, I realized that he had stopped, and was blocking my way. I wondered why, and as I went to duck around him and pass him - he took is hand and whacked me in the side of the head. I was stunned! and angry! I told him I could call the police and get a protective order for what he did. Then he was all apologies as he chased after me, but even his apology was half-hearted as he included a remark on how "I moved - he didn't mean to hit me like that." I never thought he would hit me, so this action was a shock to me.
My son goes to the same therapist (he's got Asperger's disorder and has a lot of emotional difficulties), and TOLD him that his dad had hit me. I had the opportunity to meet with the therapist when my son was sick. I forced myself to overcome my discomfort, and went to the appointment when my son was sick and couldn't make it. I sat down and we spoke for a few minutes about my son's progress. The therapist then asked me what happened in the corn maze (my son told him the story).... I took a deep breath and told him everything. At that point, he told me my husband was abusive. I had the opportunity to say "I tried to tell you that and you couldn't see it. You made him feel like he was right, and I was the problem." The therapist apologized, and said he felt my husband was so deep within himself that he couldn't get him to recognize his own emotion. I guess his sole focus was to get him to know what he was feeling and why. Good for the therapist. He was honest with you about his error.
Now my husband and I are back in counseling by order of the court. After a night of rage, he threatened our son, and I called the police. There was a no-contact order put into effect at my request, which was nulled 3 days later at my request. During the time of the no-contact order, my son (with special needs) was unable to handle the idea of not seeing or speaking with his dad for 2.5 weeks, and I was fearful of his having to be hospitalized due to his raw emotion. The judge put a "90 day stay" on my husband's hearing, and told him and I to go to counseling and they would see what progress was being made at that point. The charges will be dropped if there are no problems. My husband bent over backwards at that point to say the right things about mending our relationship and changing his ways. Now it is not even 2 months since our court date and the red flags are flying for me! Even in counseling, he cannot admit that he was abusive. I have been pouring my heart out to him in a "safer" counseling environment, but he is unable to admit that he's hurt me or been abusive in the past. The word "abuse" sends him out of the room. If he sees me reading any abuse material, he leaves the room. Now he's just better at telling me his feelings at totally inappropriate times, irregardless of my feelings! I find myself pulling away again emotionally, while he's telling me he "wants sex more than once a week". Oh, he told me that the night before I went in for an endometrial biopsy, which I was very worried about.
I know I've rambled on, and I know I'm far from perfect. I feel I have codependent tendencies, and I am working hard to set boundaries so I can live a healthier life and teach my children to do so. I just wanted to share that the second time around in counseling isn't much better. My husbands goal is to have the charges dropped and then pay a lawyer to erase all evidence that the charges and the arrest were ever made. We are in the process of filing for bankruptcy, and have no money - let alone the $1000 for this legal fee. I feel like he's lived his life that way and treated me like those charges for 15 years. I'm still confused and scared and unsure of the future of my marriage (I have my doubts) and all this counseling hasn't helped us.
Thanks for listening, and I hope this helps someone. If you do enter counseling with your abuser, please keep yourself safe! Good luck to you and yours...
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 08, 2000
S1
I posted my experience with 2 therapists above. Another thought - even when the victim, abuser, and therapist all agreed that some incident was abusive and even perhaps that the victim did not cause it, the therapist's focus was "why did you put up with that?" No questions for the abuser.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 08, 2000
S1
Sadly, I have been told that my husband is not abusive, but that I am just too sensitive. My husband has a closed system of logic that does not allow any further dialogue on any issue. I am frightened of him. Also, I believe that my husband thinks that he is the subject, the object and the standard for his life and mine.
I am a victim of his wrath, vs his physical illness and because his illness is serious, I feel I must endure. Does anybody have any answers? Mckeegan4u@aol.com You don't endure...
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000
S1
One time my brother's therapist asked me if our problems may be sibling rivalry. This was when my brother was on parole after I had him arrested, his second time in prison. This was after the substance abuse clinic and his parole officer referred him to the mental health clinic because his paranoia was abnormal. Sure, it's all just sibling rivalry! Months later this same therapist discharged my brother from the clinic because he suspected he was drinking. He referred him back to the substance abuse clinic. My brother was left hanging with no medication! This put me into a very dangerous situation, and I would have sued the clinic if he had harmed me.
I had to do my own research on how to treat a mentally ill person (he has a paranoid personality disorder) and a substance abuse problem. His disorder is the primary problem, dropping him from that support was stupid! If his therapist suspected him of drinking, he should have asked my brother what was causing stress, not dump him back to the substance abuse clinic who referred him to mental health in the first place! I'm not saying don't treat the substance abuse, but treat the primary problem along with it! I called the state's quality control board and found out that the discharge was illegal. He is back in therapy with a new counselor. Wow! Good for you - and your brother - for being proactive...
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000
S1
Dear Dr. Irene, I had gone to a counselor with my husband. I found him very unsupportive nor did he even the mention of possibility of emotional abuse. He suggested that I needed medication, even though he could not prescribe drugs. I then ended up going to a Psychiatrist, and described the things that had been related to the previous counselor, and was told that sounded like a controlling and emotionally abusive situation. My husband still contends to this day that I am mentally ill because this counselor suggested that I needed medication. Your husband is misguided. My marriage needed help at that time, and I feel that perhaps if this counselor had been more in tune, rather than labeling me my marriage might have a chance of surviving rather than ending in divorce. It is like he gave my husband the green light to go ahead and free wheel however he wanted.:-( I'm sorry...
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000
S1
I was with a counselor that seemed more frustrated with me than anything. he wouldn't answer my questions or let me progress at my own pace. I finally found a counselor that has helped me a lot and listens well. The problem with being in a verbally abusive relationship for as long as I was, 24 years, is that you don't trust your perceptions about anything - so a bad counselor can do a lot of damage. I found that a women is a lot better for this than a man. A Women just seems to have more empathy. I don't know about women having more empathy, but I know you are entirely on target with the not trusting yourself part. I'm glad you found someone you could connect with.
Good luck to everyone Elle
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000
S1
Based on a few things I've read elsewhere online, I've got some advice for anyone in a verbally abusive relationship who wants to get help. STAY AWAY from any therapist who is a John Gray (Mars-and-Venus books author) fan. This goes about triple if sex is one of the control issues. I'm quite serious here. Go read http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/women_rebuttal_from_uranus/spchless.htm and you'll see what I mean. Unfortunately. *shudder*
I'm so grateful that this is one problem my relationship does NOT have, and that we are in agreement about how harmful this particular breed of nonsense is!!
-AngryGirl Yikes! scary stuff as presented... Is it possible he's being taken out of context? Honestly, I don't know enough about his stuff to comment one way or the other.
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000
S1
I never really liked John Gray's books. Aren't we all from the planet Earth? After reading some of his answers from the Yahoo interview (found from the above referenced site), all I can say is, I'm glad I'm not his wife! YUK! You're right, AngryGirl! should we have sex when we don't feel like it? Like, when there is a crisis in your family, or a death, and you're feeling lousy? Your mate says he feels neglected instead of maybe wondering what's going on with you? Why you might not want sex? Lack of consideration for the other one's feelings. That's one of the reasons I left a relationship.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000
S1
What about a man being verbally abused by his wife? Same thing as a wife being verbally abused by her husband. Not OK.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000
S1
My husband and I went to counseling 11 years ago. I told the counselor about by husbands "anger" problems, and how they he had hit or choked me on several occasions in the past. This counseling incident was provoked by a coffee cup being thrown at me, I ducked, luckily. I was told that I knew when we was reaching his boiling point, don't go there!!!!! I quit attending the sessions after that. We are still married, but I don't really communicate because everything makes him angry. I feel hopelessly stuck. I want out of this 18 year relationship from hell, but don't know how to get out. You get out step by step, one foot in front on the other. But, you are the only one who can do it.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000
S1
It's unfortunate that John Gray's meaning and context have come across imprecisely. I've seen other people confused by this as well. I'm sure he doesn't mean anyone should be expected to have sex if they're seriously worried by some crisis or other distraction. Mostly it's two important distinctions that are missing. If you "don't feel like" having sex, what exactly does that mean? He's really talking about not feeling aroused. He points out that a number of women find if they start having sex anyway, they do get turned on once they get into it. Physiological difference, that's all. In addition to that, he's pointing out that if you can give a guy a backrub, then why not a hand job? You can do that without actually "having sex." It's just a nice thing to do for someone. Yes. This is plausible. Also, don't forget that the sex issues does not have the same meaning in a "normal" relationship, where the balance of power between the couple is pretty even.
But it does assume you feel some affection toward the guy in the first place. That's different from "not feeling like it" in the sense of harboring anger, or fear, or some other negative emotion toward the guy that actively inhibits sexual intimacy. Most important, the whole object of doing these things from a woman's viewpoint is that she should get some good vibes back from the guy. It can be a way of pumping up a so-so relationship. Correct.
Gray exaggerates gender differences to compensate for the reality that many people are less aware of them than they could be - especially after decades of denial about them. The fact that we're all from Earth doesn't mean we're all the same, but many people seem unable to perceive the nature of those differences. Exaggeration is one way of clarifying them, but Gray's science-fiction fantasy is also a way of inviting people to leave their earthbound preconceptions behind and go on a journey of exploration with open minds. It's a method of overcoming mental blocks.
However, the second important distinction is that Gray is dealing with the majority of ordinary relationships where couples don't always understand one another or interact with one another as well as they might. If you're in the minority of chronically abusive relationships, you may end up giving blowjobs until you're blue in the face, and all you'll get back is more abuse. For that matter, following Gray's advice could be part of a litmus test of whether you're in an abusive relationship or not, depending on what you do get back! All I can say is, try it if you like; but YMMV. That's not "Mars and Venus." That's "Your Mileage May Vary." :) Agreed.
- Gordon
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000
S1
Mayhap I shouldn't have opened this can of worms....
At the risk of sounding like Tex's Kali, I fail to see how there can be ANY ACCEPTABLE CONTEXT for this:
"That's all excuses. It takes two minutes. That's all complete baloney, and that attitude ruins marriages. Women make this big deal out of a two-minute hand job. They want him to go do something for her! They want him to go clean this up or do this or whatever. Two minutes! That's all it takes. Big deal! This can make [your husband's] day, make him feel happy, it can save your marriage. [You are] just pissed off because [you're] not getting what [you] want and [you're] using that as an excuse. [You would] get more of what you want if you would take the time for a quickie!"
That is just -- repulsive. Not to mention completely degrading toward women, and completely lacking any consideration for boundaries. There are SO MANY REASONS that a woman might not want to have sex at that moment, no matter how loving her relationship normally is, and here it seems that most of the posters are female victims of abuse. Going to a counselor who subscribes to this "quickies fix everything" mentality is only going to make things worse.
Not meant as a personal attack, but those who can't see that need to think with their brains and not their genitals. END OF STORY.
[/soapbox]
-AngryGirl
This is an excellent example of why "ordinary" couples techniques are inappropriate in abuse. In abuse, all the rules for ordinary counseling are lost. The aim of abuse counseling is to stop the abuse and balance the power in the relationship.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000
S1
I have been to three different counselors over the past year and a half. A waste of time, each of them. Why? I gave sex to my husband "on demand", while he complained we never "did it" enough. Over the years, each time he "demanded," the tougher it was for me to want or give it. When I didn't give it, he took it. Yuk. Finally, I was no more than a body for him to use, an empty shell. I had to detach to block out the emotional pain. I resent him using my body while emotionally I starve. The act of making love bonds two people through the most intimate of emotions, as well as touching. Making love does not even require intercourse. Yes. When a woman "gives sex" to a man to appease his biological urges, this tears them apart, separates them emotionally, and creates a chasm so great that not even the best counselor in the world can help. Sex, intimate touching to appease a horny man, can be torture to a tired, stressed woman who is starving for a man to touch her as his friend, his love, her comforter...not like a two bit hooker. Men have an amazing ability to equate "sex" with love.....sex, in itself, IS NOT LOVE. The man sits with the counselor thinking "she never gives me sex so how can I show her love". The woman sits there thinking "he never shows me love, so how can I give him sex". And the counselor sits there clueless. When the imbalance of abuse exists...
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 12, 2000
S1
To the previous poster: VERY well said. Gray's stuff is scary- in fact, I think that he encourages the abusive mindset- his books let me act however they want and basically tell women not to speak their minds for fear of sending their husband into his 'cave' but that no matter what he will return to his 'cave' and she just has to deal with it. Tough. Well, for those of us who deal with abusive men, they spend their lives in their 'cave' but we're being bad spouses if we think that we deserve a little more in a relationship? Not to mention that Gray has no credentials and has done no research on any of this. His views on men and women are just that- his views. Which would be fine if his book came with that warning, but it doesn't, it markets itself as an authority on relationships. -SatokoGirl
Gray's stuff is scary - when the counselor is unaware of abuse phenomena.
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 12, 2000
S1
I sympathize of course with the poster who "gave sex on demand." The whole trouble is that with this particular man you gave and gave, more and more, and got less and less back--in fact, nothing but criticism. When that happens, regardless of whether the issue is sex, or money, practical help, or love itself, anyone would feel used. Your last three sentences hit the nail on the head. Here are two people, both needing something of one another, but either unwilling or unable to give to the other--as if marriage, or life itself, were not dependent on exchange--"and the counselor sits there clueless."
But what if the counselor were John Gray? Could he sit there and tell you "the answer to your problem is sex on demand?" Hardly, since you were already doing that. So much of what he writes is also about what men ought to do for their wives, listening, supporting, complimenting, comforting: many ways of being loving. Gray would have to say your husband had gross shortcomings; it's obvious the man wasn't doing any of that, and nothing you were doing was getting your needs met. That almost defines an abusive relationship.
So now I come to think of it, maybe Gray's books aren't valueless after all to someone in an abusive relationship. His normal premise is that "if you do your part, your marriage ought to work better." But if you're doing that anyway and nothing is getting better, take a look at all the things Gray would advise your partner to do for you--because that's about your own needs. The contrast there alone could be an eye-opener to anyone with an abusive partner. (I'm not suggesting a woman is "abusive" because she doesn't like the "quickie" part, a mere option that people overemphasize anyway; I mean take it as a whole.) And if the partner won't listen, rejects it all out of hand, won't change anything, that might be a big clue to what kind of relationship you're in. I agree.
- Gordon
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000
S1
I have not only felt lack of compassion from counselors, but also from leaders in support groups. What would you call it when after 20 yrs. of marriage I ask my husband to please take his clothes upstairs to be put away in our bedroom - because we now lived in a tri-level house and I felt this wasn't asking too much of him, only to have him leave the pile I had just washed, ironed and folded either lying in the family room where I folded them, took them upstairs, but left them on the bed or floor, or only put on what he needed for that day? Or asking my husband to please eat in the kitchen where he could still watch TV and not in the family room because I wanted our brand new house to stay nice only to be told, "I will eat WHERE I WANT!"?
I call this abusive. Why am I told I could get a job if I really WANTED to? This is true, but I didn't want to work for McDonald's. This was told to me in a support group setting by one of the leaders.
I am still struggling to end this relationship. : ( This may or may not be abuse...not enough info here.
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000
S1
Concerning the previous poster whose husband doesn't pick up his laundry or eat in the kitchen: It seems a stretch to call that abusive. Inconsiderate and perhaps even hostile, but abusive? The group leader who told her she could get a job if she "really wanted to" might be ill-informed , maybe just blunt and unfeeling, but abusive?? Where do we draw the line? - SG
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000
S1
Just over a year ago, my husband and I went to couples counseling through my EAP (employee assistance program). We were referred to a woman, who saw us three times, and despite being told that my husband had a volatile temper and that he had sent a bag of groceries sailing earlier (the same day as the third counseling session), she pronounced that we were both depressed, and that I was more depressed than him. Well, she was probably right, though she may have missed the boat... She wanted me to see a psychiatrist to have my antidepressant increased and for additional counseling. However, for him counseling was OPTIONAL! She also was aware that he smoked pot (but seemed to believe him when he said he was no longer smoking, which I knew wasn't true). There's more, but you get the idea. Yuk.
How did I handle it? At the time, I knew nothing about verbal abuse or about Patricia Evans. I told my friends and family about the counselor's advice, and no one who knew us could believe that she had come to that conclusion. I did call my primary care physician and she did increase the dosage of my anti-depressant, but I did not follow up on the counselor's advice to get additional counseling. In fact, after that incident, I have resisted counseling whenever it has been suggested. It wasn't until I had been on one of the e-mail lists for a period of time that I realized what had actually happened! Don't look at counseling as a pronouncement of being sicker than he is.
Meanwhile, my husband has never missed an opportunity to bring that up as "proof" that I am "responsible" for our situation, and that I think she is an idiot solely because she didn't agree with me.
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 14, 2000
S1
Re SB's $0.02 worth. Yes, and please be fair. Imagine, you work hard to earn the money to buy a house. You choose to share your house with a partner who doesn't earn income, so you pay all the bills. But you can't relax in your own home, slouch in the family-room Barcalounger you also bought, with the TV, a beer, and a pizza (isn't that what the family room is FOR?) because your partner has somehow assumed the right to dictate where you can and can't eat.
"I will eat where I want" isn't abuse. It's a man defending his own boundaries, his own rights in the bit of real estate he labors for years to pay for. If he sounds grumpy about it, could that be because he's fed up with shooing away trespassers?
If the issue is that you do the housework and his eating makes a mess for you, fine, tell him to clean it up himself.
Our house has a plaque on the wall, facing anyone who comes in the back door as friends usually do. It says "Our house is CLEAN enough to be HEALTHY, and DIRTY enough to be HAPPY." We may live in more mess than some, but we're free to enjoy ourselves in it.
To be just as fair, the same goes for all those bitching about "if only the house was clean." You've got two sensible choices: pitch in and help clean it, or quitcherbellyachin' and make love in the dirt instead.
"Why can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King. :)
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000
S1
I have had several experiences with marriage counselors where the abuse issues have not been addressed. My husband and I are seeing our 4th therapist currently. It has been very frustrating for me as the sessions usually have involved him trying to convince the counselor how terrible I am.....more abuse really. I defend myself and try to tell my side of the story as I find that he usually exaggerates and tells blatant lies about me.
One of the problems that I see with traditional couples counseling is that the therapist does not want any blame to be placed nor do they allow for ongoing discussion of past incidents of abuse. I have found that this approach left me feeling as if there was no way to even have them see that the abuse occurred. It seems to be more important to them to keep the abuser comfortable in counseling when in my opinion they need to be confronted with the destructiveness of their behavior. My husband does get very angry in counseling when I tell it like it is. It blows my mind that the counselor does not call him on it and suggest ways for him to get control of his angry feelings. It is frustrating because no one seems to have the guts to call the abuse what is and to address it with him. Their solution is usually about negotiation of some sort meaning that I am to further try to accommodate him and adjust my tone of voice or whatever else it is that he says causes him to be angry. None of the counselors have even so much as asked him to examine his anger personally. When I have expressed my own anger towards my husband for his treatment of me, I do not think that it is acknowledged and validated as even in the session his reaction to my righteous anger becomes the focus. He takes the floor and what I say is swept under the rug. Once again, he turns it all back on me. This has happened repeatedly even though I have clearly stated that I believe that I have been emotionally and verbally abused. He responds with all his BS about how I am the one who has abused him. Again, it is turned back on me.
We have just recently started with a new therapist and his approach so far has been to have us take a personality test to try to show my husband that we are different and that differences are not bad. One of his major problems is his need to have others, especially me, to agree with him on everything. Sure enough we were different in all four categories of personality. My husband saw this as justification for his attitude towards me and more reason why I am not good enough for him. I saw it as a tool to help us to understand and accept the differences better. I am working towards acceptance and tolerance ( not of abuse though) and he is working towards justifying his abuse. This therapist did point out to my husband last week that because of his personality it is very hard for him to see other people point of views and that this is a blind spot to him in relationships. He also told him that he was critical and demanding of others and himself. He told him that he needed to make a decision about whether he is willing to work on becoming less critical of me because if he wasn't then the marriage would not work. His response to this later was that he may be incapable of being less critical because I am so different from him, more of I am like this because you make me. He saw it as a way out of the marriage....just needs to decide that he doesn't want to change. I told him that he had a choice to make, that he could take responsibility and learn to become a more tolerant and kinder person now or he could leave and find that his next partner will not like his attitude either. I think he truly believes that if he had a different partner that he would not get angry. I don't believe this for a second. I am sure that it would be just a matter of time before she was the object of his abuse and criticism. It is the classic....you change to accommodate me so that I do not have to. I know first hand that there is no way to accommodate this man as he is, that no matter what I have done in response to his complaints was never enough, that he will always find something new to complain about. God knows I have tried this!!!
So, it is my hope that our new therapist will be able to help him to see how destructive his behavior is in our marriage. He also told him last week that if he did not choose to work on becoming less critical that my spending my life with him would be no way for me to live my life, that it would be a terrible life for me. How true is that???
I have and will continue to stand up for myself and use our therapy sessions to confront him on the abuse. Ultimately, I will leave the marriage if he chooses not to address his issues. I will not accept the abuse as okay!! I think that our new therapist is helping me to see that his admitted lack of respect and constant criticism is not acceptable and for that I am grateful! :)
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000
S1
I wrote the last post and then read all the others and want to post again now....
The SEX thing......an abuser will use whatever he can to make the other inadequate in order to justify his anger. He claims that I am the best lover that he has ever had. I believe that is true as I am very attentive and skilled ;). On the other hand, he has accused me of withholding sex to manipulate him. I have brought this up in therapy. I have never done this. It is as if he doesn't think that I should ever not be in the mood. He accused me of this a week after giving birth. MAN!!! I knew that he was just trying to hurt me. Our therapist at that time asked about frequency and at the time it was at least 3 times a week. She told him that he ought to be grateful because most couples our age with children do not get it so often.. LOL! He didn't believe her.
About Meds....He has also used the fact that I was depressed after a couple of years of trying to make our marriage work as proof that I was the one with the problem. Got mad at me for not staying on Prozac when I found that it did not help me. I simply decided that I was depressed because I was abused and the answer for me was not medication to cover the natural symptoms but to do something to change the situation. Sorry but for me, taking prescription drugs to avoid legitimate feelings is no different than using alcohol or other addictive substances. I am not saying that Anti depressants don't serve others well but simply that I saw them as a way to stay in denial rather than deal with my reality. The irony of his accusations here is that he was prescribed Anxiety medication that was really helping him but quit because he didn't want people to think that something was wrong with him. This doesn't jive with his belief that I am cause of all the problems and that he is fine.
About the Mars and Venus topic....we do need to learn about the differences and I actually there was a time when my husband and I were listening to JG tapes and my husband for the first time was able to laugh at himself and at me. It helped with the lack of tolerance that he has for our differences. It validated my idea that differences are okay and expected!! MD You used your tapes in a way that balanced your power! Good!
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000
S1
When I went to marriage counseling, everything got turned around to be MY problem. Granted, I am not blameless, but NO words about abuse were spoken. I am unsure if I want to continue with the counseling, I think separation counseling might be best at this point.
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000
S1
After 5 years of trying hard to maintain in my relationship with a man that works on the road 85 -95% of the time all the while acquiring children (4 now the last three eighteen months) apart. Left at home alone with all the responsibilities, my husband came home with all the classic comments from the list of abusive behaviors. Of course My first response was to think it was me. After reading one self help book after another, I realized I had dealt with accepted and chose not to live as a victim to any misspent youthful beliefs. So then I read all the marriage books I could possibly read, knowing I had not had a good example to emulate. This only left me crying alone at night because it was only fortifying the fact it takes two to have a relationship and I was clearly alone.
I refer to the series of events in the 6th year of marriage as what I called the eye opening experience, and began to detach myself and preparing to take control of my life. This was sure to be difficult with the fixed "allowance" , four small children and nothing in my name nor a marketable education. I took the initiative and purchased a computer thru a student loan. When I look back and see the things that I accomplished and how I did them, I was proud of myself. :) As I am taking control of my life because I no longer choose to be manipulated by a man who married me and left me alone to accept the neglect and the abuse (which has taken on the cycles of physical abuse), the opposition is getting more intense. Once I was willing to accept any of the consequences for just getting out after years of me suggesting marriage counseling, he decides we needed to go to marriage counseling. I almost begrudgingly agreed, but did it as long as he knew it was with the understanding that this was not a guarantee nor a promise it was going to work.
After about six visits of course it was obvious if you can't be home from work 95 - 85% of the time, you can't attend counseling either. The counselor offered to do it by phone with him - of course he had an excuse as well as one for no correspondence. Of course there is a pattern to how hard he would try. It lasted from a couple of weeks to sometimes a month or two. As far as the counseling goes, I felt very cheated. During the last visit with the three of us sitting there, the counselor made the announcement at least four times "You need him. You need him!" I was devastated by this whole session; it only gave my husband more fuel. I needed him! I'm thinking who needs this.
Now, ten years of crap from a man who takes sheer pleasure in dishing it out, I would like to say that this computer was probably the greatest debt I ever acquired! It has enabled me to find the resources I needed to help myself (and my children), because I know one of the reasons my husband's and my relationship has become almost intolerable even after counseling. I refuse to be a victim and before I become an angry abuser/victim in retaliation, I am finding away out. I must admit with my compassion and with the genuine love I have for my husband as a human being, I am not (yet) bitter; very careful not to make excuses for him and his behavior; am going to share some of the information I have found and printed, with as little discussion as possible, so not to get drawn into his games and walk away letting him make a choice to do something for himself. I still find myself second guessing my confidence so in your personal opinion although I know you don't know the whole circumstance do you perceive someone that may be a victim, abuser/victim or abuser? I'm not sure I understand your question, but if you are asking if a victim can behave like an abuser, the answer is yes. Anybody can misbehave!
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000
S1
Seven years of marriage and six counselors..... at the end of one session, my husband was getting so angry his veins stuck out and he was literally foaming at the mouth. The counselor said, "times up." I said, "excuse me, I'm too terrified to leave right now with this angry person. I don't know what he might do. He's so very angry. I'm really scared.." But too bad, end of the day, no help offered. I felt I had to leave with my husband, in our car. Another counselor suggested the "meet him halfway" thing. What on earth do you think I'd been doing? Meeting him halfway. Then again halfway. Then closing the gap again halfway. He never moved an inch towards me, and I was doing all the accommodating. Counselors never saw this.
I also got the "give him sex on demand" prescription. And "try watching erotic films together to help you get turned on." One counselor suggested that we read a John Gray book together. Boy, that sure sent us down the wrong path. I actually did try all of these things in good faith, and they only made our relationship worse.
When I told the counselor I was unhappy because my husband criticized me often, and that it seemed I could do no right, the counselor validated my husband by saying, "well, if I worked hard all day, of course I'd want to come home to a clean house..." This counselor is male, unmarried, no children. (I'm sure there are excellent counselors fitting this description, but this wasn't one of them -- disclaimer)
Then I tried the Christian thing. I thought if I submitted or was a godly woman, that God would somehow reach my husband through me, and that everything would be all right. I had faith.
I was made to feel that I was the problem. I believed the counselors for many years, and just kept trying harder. I wish it had just been one or two counselors; could have dismissed that, maybe. But can six out of six counselors be wrong? Now, I know that they can.
It really makes me laugh when I tell people our marriage is over and we're getting divorced, and they say, "oh, have you tried counselling?"
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000
S1
Sometimes my husband of 3 years will walk away from me and sulk at social gatherings that we attend together if he feels I'm not giving him enough attention. In marriage counselling, our therapist said that I need to reassure him more that he is important to me and give him more attention. I have been working so hard at learning not to take care of other people's feelings. I think that as long as I am considerate and kind and don't ignore him, that that is the extent of my responsibility. I feel that the therapist is blaming me for my husband's feelings, instead of working with him on his insecurities and teaching him how to take care of himself. I'm so frustrated!
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000
S1
Have I had experience in counseling where the abuse issues were not met? YOU BET!!!!
I convinced my husband to go to a husband/wife counseling team after 10 years of marriage. I had never heard of "verbal/emotional abuse". I called my husband's actions "double standards". i.e., he treated everyone nice but me.
When I brought this up to the counselors, the husband asked me to list them. I took two weeks to carefully list 10 years of examples. When we returned, the husband was home sick, the wife had a cold, too, and I had to remind her of my list that we were supposed to discuss. She told me to read it out loud. I did. Then she look at me and said, "So . . . what do you want to do about it?"
I was floored.
We (I) dropped these people. We next went to a psychologist who had treated me for panic attacks. By this time, I had stumbled onto Patricia Evans' book and now knew what the problem was. I told the psychologist, in front of my husband, that this was the problem and to read this book. He then proceeded to advise us to "go out on dates". I was flabbergasted. I made an appointment to see him alone and took him to task. I said, "Why would I want to hire a babysitter and go out to be abused? I can stay home for free and be abused. We need to STOP the abuse before we go out on dates." He indicated to me that he had no proof that my husband was abusive. I dropped him.
Next, we went to a woman psychologist. I went to her first and asked if she were familiar with verbal abuse. She assured me that she was. She borrowed my Patricia Evans book. I gave her my list of examples of abuse. I gave her a tape recording of my husband ranting at me. My husband and I were seeing her separately. I thought we had finally found the help we needed. Imagine my surprise when one night my husband told me his distress that he had asked this woman to apportion the blame in our marriage. [what a question! Shows where his heart was.] And she answered [what kind of professional would answer this question???] that she thought *I* was 60% at fault and he was 40% at fault!!!!!! My husband was upset because he thought she would say that I was at least 90% at fault.
We quit her. I thought long and hard about filing a complaint with the licensing board against this woman who assured me that she understood verbal abuse and then gave my abuser ammunition.
Oh! And did I mention our minister who had counseled us together and separately, who went to my husband and told him EVERYTHING I had ever said to him? Oh, yes, that really helped. We switched churches.
As far as I'm concerned, counseling is out forever. My only support right now is this board. I am grateful for it.
Marie
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000
S1
My husband verbally abused me DURING couseling! Ranted and raved about my alleged infidelities and my problems with satisfying him sexually. I was sent home to work on my "intimacy issues."
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000
S1
My AH(abuser/husband) moved out at the end of March. We have been married and in an increasingly abusive marriage for 26 years. For the past five years I tried to get him to go in for marriage counseling. Right up until the very day he left he refused. When I hired a lawyer and had a court date set he had a change of heart. Too late. I said that I needed to see him get long term therapy for his abusive behaviors and I had to see the results before I would now agree to couples counseling. I have been seeing a therapist since last fall. He told me last week that he talked to one therepist on his cell phone for 14 minutes and she told him it didn't sound like he was the one with the problem. He said he decided to get a second opinion, so he arranged to see another therepist for a "whole hour", but in the end was told that the only thing we needed was couples counseling. So now he has been validated in his belief that I am the one that is off base. He's right, I'm wrong. He said he will agree to go for marriage counseling, but that is all. No way, no how! I'm sticking with my decision.
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000
S1
I am writing this under stess and fear. I was getting ready to do an errand with my husband on the holiday and he became rageful because he dropped his cell phone and possibly broke it. He blamed me for his broken phone and then, He threw my things in the car around to cause an effect of fear. I asked to be handed my things and he said no. I got out of the car and refused to go with him anywhere. He threw all of my things out of my car and sped off. He is not use to me refusing his orders and his tantrum behavior. I am usually very quiet and ignore his outbursts. He has never hit me and I am not afraid of physical violence. I am afraid of his rage attacks. Teri
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000
S1
I am writing this under stess and fear. I was getting ready to do an errand with my husband on the holiday and he became rageful because he dropped his cell phone and possibly broke it. He blamed me for his broken phone and then, He threw my things in the car around to cause an effect of fear. I asked to be handed my things and he said no. I got out of the car and refused to go with him anywhere. He threw all of my things out of my car and sped off. He is not use to me refusing his orders and his tantrum behavior. I am usually very quiet and ignore his outbursts. He has never hit me and I am not afraid of physical violence. I am afraid of his rage attacks. We did have one hour of couple therapy 13 years ago and the counselor was very condescending to me and told me my husband did not have a problem showing his loving feelings and being intimate. He is a charming person to many people and he is also a rageaholic in private. I found the counselor to be of no help to me and quite frankly more hurtful because he basically joined my husband in trying to make me the one with a problem Teri
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Date: Friday, June 02, 2000
S1
Yes, when taking a psychological history I indicated to the psychiatrist that I was divorced. I cited my then husband's unpredicatable behaviour due to alcoholism. He replied that his alcoholism was not my problem. I replied that it was my problem since I suffered a broken collar bone from an uncharacteristic physical assault. Needless to say, I changed therapists.
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, June 02, 2000
S1
Yes, when taking a psychological history I indicated to the psychiatrist that I was divorced. I cited my then husband's unpredicatable behaviour due to alcoholism. He replied that his alcoholism was not my problem. I replied that it was my problem since I suffered a broken collar bone from an uncharacteristic physical assault. Needless to say, I changed therapists.
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, June 03, 2000
S1
When my first marriage was ending my abusive husband and I went to some counseling...I was already bent on leaving because I couldn't take anymore but I went anyhow. I was basically told that it was my fault that he was depressed and mean. The counselor did this one exercize that just killed me (we were already separated at the time). She had me think of a situation in which I was happily married...then she asked me if I knew who the person was that I saw. I said no, and she said, well good, that means there's still room for John (not his real name). How did I handle it? I simply didn't go back. I had enough by that time. He conned 2 counselors plus a child custody evaluator...and he conned me for 5 years. He would threaten suicide...throw things...tell me how awful I was...and still...I was supposed to leave room for him in my dreams...ICK.
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000
S1
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, June 09, 2000
S1
I went to a marriage counselor shortly after I was arrested for domestic violence. (I am a 110 lb 42 yr old woman with no past record whatsoever. My husband is 18 years my senior whom I've been with since I was 23.) I went to this man 3 times, each time requesting or suggesting that maybe I should be on medication. I told him that I had no intention of continuing my marriage. However, I wanted him to see my husband too, since we have 3 children and a family business and needed to continue with at least an amicable relationship. I told him that my husband is a very nice man, which he is. His verbal abuse had escalated to public humiliation which I could no longer tolerate. It was unbearable. He met with my husband. My husband was hoping for reconciliation. On my fourth visit to the counselor he was hostile towards me. He confronted me on several minor issues where I found myself feeling the need to defend myself. He told me that I should be seeing him at least twice a week, that I should see a psychiatrist because I may be bi-polar and should be put on medication. I'm not bi-polar as it turns out. Nor am I mentally ill in any way. I was in an abusive, controlling relationship and now have the courage to put an end to it. After 18 years of having my husband convince me that I was completely to blame I had finally gotten him into counselling. This counsellor (who was 3 times married) had no business counselling couples. His misogynistic attitude was apparent from the onset. It turns out that my husband & my divorce attorney were in collusion in regards to getting me arrested so that my husband would look better in court when trying to keep our business. It's a long sordid tale, I fell into their trap but I'm no dumb bunny. I'll be suing the pants off of my lawyer. The counsellor was someone he referred me to. Unbelieveable, huh?
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, June 19, 2000
S1
I too have had the experience of seeing an ineffective counselor. I won't go into the details, but my husband exhibited all of the classic signs of verbal abuse. I had read Patricia Evans book and was relieved and amazed to finally understand what I was living with, but I hadn't gotten up the nerve to discuss it with my husband. We began seeing a counselor as what I considered a last resort. While talking with the counselor separate from my husband, I handed her my copy of Patricia Evans book, complete with highlights and post-its. Even if she was familiar with the book, I thought she would be interested in knowing what I chose to highlight. I told her what an impact this book had made on me - that I felt like the book did more than shed a little light on our relationship, it defined it. Her response was that she thought they had that book around somewhere and she immediately handed it back to me. If that were to happen again now, I would know it was time to leave. At that point, I was in the angry stage. (By the way, your stages are right on target!!!). The counseling continued, with my husband saying the right things while he was there and then treating me awful at home and no one but me finding his behavior to be a problem. Finally, I chose to stop seeing the counselor because the only effect was keeping me emotionally upset all the time. The good news is that I have recently seen a counselor for individual counseling that I believe will prove to be drastically more helpful. I have only seen her once so far, but it was obvious from the first five minutes that she understood what I was living with. The ironic thing is that I found this counselor only by taking the initiative to ask someone in my office about her recent divorce and to admit to her what I was dealing with. So I guess the message it this: trust your instincts, don't be afraid to open up to others, and don't be afraid to try different counselors until you find one who understands.
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000
S1
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, June 22, 2000
S1
My husband and I have been thru marital counseling twice. Both times, although we never followed thru it did not help much. In fact, the last time they split us up and he came home telling me the therapist said he was perfectly fine there is nothing wrong with him and he wasn't going back cuz there was nothing to talk about anymore. He now says therapy doesn't help and he is not going back and that I should go. I will because he has already destroyed my self-confidence which I am slowly getting back, he had taken away my friends and now I am making new but still tries to sabotage that and anything else I try to do to make myself feel good. Trouble is I need to be sure this counselor will make a difference and I don't know how if most are not that versed in this area.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, June 26, 2000
S1
When I've been to ordinary counselling it appears that no one really understands your position. For six years I have tried counselling and each counsellor has finsished saying chose "stay and put up with it, or leave." Its not easy to say to someone who feels so low and is scared. The only option is leave.
Not one said how I could rid my self of co-dependency, each one blamed my partners childhood, infact they made excuses for him, like its just the way he is. He isn't comfortable showing emotion, its not surprising.
No one can change I was told, people are what they are, you have to learn acceptance. Or some people moan its just because they are perfectionist, just live with it. they can't help it.
Listen lady one counsellor said "he is tired, he works long hours, you also would be short fused if you had his lifestyle.
Others would yarn on and on about childhoods, none of them were able to give me some positive steps to heal me.
Even today I have read and read books and books from your site also but some of them are fine for the confident, but for those of us out here that are frightened of the future, have little money or security, its hard to take this advice.
Counselling is so expensive also. I mean if you want to get help chances are you are skint. Then the counselling is only available to the middle class. What do poor working class do?
No seriously the endless monies spent on talking and talking over and over all my life hasn't help a bit.
Techniques which are realistic are what's needed!!!!!
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, June 27, 2000
S1
To this day, five years after my divorce from my first husband, I am terrified of marriage counseling. I was married for 13 years to an extreme emotional abuser. (Three weeks after we got married he screamed at me for stubbing my toe on some furniture and then excused it by saying it was just because he loved me so much and when I was hurt it scared him and his fear came out as anger. For the entire duration of our marriage I walked on eggshells, constantly afraid to talk to my husband about anything - once I told him, after spending all day trying to think how to do so, that the microwave was broken and he went into a rage, accusing me of implying somehow that it was his fault.) We went to at least 6 counselors during our marriage and in every case, they asked me what I had said/done to cause him to react to me that way. Or they told me he'd probably just had a bad day and I should overlook it. Not one ever validated my experience with the title of "abuse." It was ALWAYS either my fault, or a normal relationship quirk. Of course, my husband gloated over his exonerations and metaphorically "patted me on the head" and let it be known that I was the one that was sick. See! the therapist said so! After 10 years of this, I became severely clinically depressed and lost all joy in life and even tried to kill myself. I finally realized I had to get therapy for myself, but I adamantly refused to go to marriage counseling. I went to a therapist by myself, without my husband. After describing three events in our marriage, this therapist immediately used the word "abuse" to describe the experiences. It was like an enormous weight was lifted off my shoulders. It took two years of personal therapy for me to get well enough to decide to never tolerate the abuse again and finally, I left him. Unfortunately, I am again involved in an abusive marriage. The cycle is extremely hard to break. However, this time, I see it it clearly, I know my perceptions are valid, and I will not tolerate it the way I did before. Never will I sink to the level of despair I was in before. But also, I will never seek marriage counseling again because of the fear of being placed in the same situation as the first time. So my husband's family thinks it's all my fault and I'm the the one in the wrong or I wouldn't be afraid to get counseling. I don't care...well, I do, but I'm not going to let their judgments interfere with what I know I have to do to protect my own sanity.
Marji
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, July 08, 2000
S1
When I was married to a physically, emotionally, and verbally abusive man, the family doctor referred us to a Phd. He only spoke to my husband twice. The dr. didn't address his alcoholism or the abuse but told me that I was frigid and that was the problem for all our problems. In addition, this dr. only wanted to know in detail, every single thing about our sex life. He only made the comment of my being frigid and insisted I talk the rest of the time about sex.
After this treatment for about 4 times I called the dr. and said this was not helping and would not come back. I also never went back to the family physician. My abusive husband used this "frigid" issue as an excuse for whatever he thought he was entitled to do. I almost reported this dr. but I didn't. Knowing what I know now, I would have. I actually think he got his "Kicks" talking about others sex lives now. It was a demeaning, scary experience as I was so young and without resources of any kind.
Thank you for letting me think about this-I still need to heal this experience.
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, July 09, 2000
S1
My husband took me to counseling to 'smooth out our problems' which he wouldn't dicuss why he wanted me to go. I only went because he badgered me to go. (I felt like he was trying to control me via the counselor). Well, when we got to her office she asked us to show her our argument style so we started arguing for her and didn't stop until the counselor stood on a chair and blew a whistle for us to stop...Needless to say we were confused and humiliated. When we left her office, he said he would "never do that to me again." I never asked him what he meant by that. We didn't return to that counselor, but, as time passed, he did it again; badgering me to go to a counselor. I went and after a few visits (which she never figured out we were there as a means for him to control me via the counselor) the counselor, said it was him and his semantics, just a matter of linguistics. He decided he didn't want to go back. It happened again much in the same way and for the same reasons. Not one of them addressed co-dependency, Or abuse (even though I complained to all of them that he was too pushy) None of them addressed boundaries or anything real. Thet only made matters worse because I became confused and dis-empowered. Up until then I was doing o.k. with my boundaries and not being controlled or abused. I was asking for what I needed in the relationship, even though my husband was 'projecting' constantly on me. After the counselor visits, I definitely changed, and the abuse kicked in because I became resigned...I still don't understand it completely, but, It felt like in all these case the counselor was abusive. It brought me alot of shame that I kept inside. rjg
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, August 02, 2000
S1
I have been in couples therapy. We just finished a couple of weeks ago. I made copies of some of the articles here at this site and brought them with me. The counselor, who was a she, as I am, was different when I went to her one on one, and when my husband and I went together. She was like a Dr. Jekel and Mr. Hyde. I could not figure her out. My husband is very good at making others believe that he is Mr. Wonderful. So kind and polite to them, and twisting everything I would say to make me look like the one with the problem. We barely discussed the articles. They were basically set aside. I brought up an example which was twisted and thrown back in my face. Here is the ex: Since I have brought up in our counseling that I feel my husband is verbally abusive, he has tried to do things around the house so that when we go back for our session, he has something to say - 'I did this to help' 'I always help you around the house, what did I do this weekend' - so that he looks as if he is so thoughtful and helpful. What he left out were the comments he made while he was actually helping, which I brought up, only to have them twisted around and make it appear as if I am the one who is always taking things the wrong way. Or he comes back with, "I was only kidding." The counselor looks at me as if I am the one with the problem, even commenting on how sometimes when a person is concerned it may come across to the other person as controlling. Anyway, the example which I never really explained was this: My husband did the dishes all weekend long. Four days straight. It was the July 4th weekend. I told him that I really appreciated his help and I also asked him in a joking manner, "What has gotten into you?" Wrong question. He came back with - I always help you out around this house when I am not working. I always try to help. I agreed that yes, he did help me at times. And, yes, he has done the dishes for me before and other things around the house, but that it wasn't for four days in a row. Maybe once or twice the entire weekend, just not everyday. I was just curious as to why all of a sudden the change. Well, he responds to that with - Well, when you get that $25 an hour job, then I will stay home with the kids and take care of things around this house the way they are supposed to be done, and things will look really nice. I said that it sounded good to me. Hopefully, I could find such a job. (But, internally, I was fuming. How dare he. To me what he was saying was that I do not do as good of a job as he does.) I wanted to ask him what he meant by that statement, but I was afraid to say anything because I was so angry. I did not want to react to that, so I bit my tongue and pretended as if all was fine. He also said a couple of other snide remarks, but I just ignored them, and I cannot remember what they were now. Anyway, I brought that up during one of our sessions. I asked him what he meant by what he said in front of the counselor, even commenting on the fact that we both do not have to do things the same way. We can each do the dishes the way we want to. He comes back with - I was only trying to help. I am always helping out around the house as much as I can. If I want to do the dishes and dry them, then put them away, I can. If I want to clean out the drain plug and put the mat, washrag, and dish drain away afterwards, then I can. You can do the dishes the way that you want to. It doesn't make a difference. I did not mean anything by what I said, you are always taking things the wrong way. The couselor just looked at me like I was the one with the problem. I wanted to slap that stupid grin off of her face, which of course, I did not do. I felt totally ganged up on. (He changed everything around in the kitchen because he was inadvertantly telling me that is how it should be done. He does that all of the time. Shows me 'this is the way it should be done.' As if I am incapable, which I am not. I left the session feeling even worse than when I had arrived. He was so happy. He comment while we were walking to the car was, "She likes me a lot. She really likes me." Privately, she told me that she thinks my husband suffers from paranoia and should possibly be on some form of medication, but does she tell him that? No! I first started seeing her privately about sexual abuse, and then we started going as a couple for couples therapy. She knew my history, she knew my deepest, darkest secrets, and yet she did not make me feel that I had her support. I feel worse now than when I first went to her. What is wrong with this picture? Believe me, there is much more to this whole picture than meets the eye. I just am really feeling worn down and question myself even more.
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, August 04, 2000
S1
I made an appointment with a male marriage counsellor hoping that it would make my husband feel more comfortable speaking to a man rather than a woman. (I had gone to a woman in the past.)My objective was simply to get him into counselling so that he could understand that I was not the only one with the problem as he had believed and even had me believing for 15 years of our relationship. I went alone for the first visit to this counsellor. When I walked into his office he was on the telephone with a client. I had a seat while waiting for him to finish with his call. When he hung up the phone he said to me, "That women is always threatening suicide. I wish she'd just do it". Clearly this women was annoying him. I tried to casually laugh it off since his comment was obviously meant to be humorous. I was more shocked than anything else. I mean, this was my first visit! And this was his flippant, back-stabbing response regarding a woman in pain! I should've walked out then and there. But I didn't. I asked him how long he'd been counselling her. He said, "Three years". I thought that the poor woman should be referred to someone else since he obviously wasn't helping her. My husband was verbally abusive. The counsellor's response to this was, "If what he says isn't true, then it doesn't mean anything. It's harmless". I was bothered by that remark. I begged to differ with him but he was not receptive to my comments and basically blew off what I had to say. My husband is a soft spoken, nice man. But his techniques for arguing consist of "ad hominem"(against the man) rather than "ad rem"(to the matter at hand). This, of course, had been the criterion for the disintegration of our marriage. Assassinating my character had been extremely effective as my gentle husband's method of control. The hostility he perpetuated via "public humiliation & slander" came at me from complete strangers. And, believe me, from total strangers I was subjected to more damage and danger than I could have ever experienced from any physically abusive man. My husband had others do his dirty work for him. He's that plausible, eloquent and sincere when he speaks. The destruction has been irreparable. During the first 3 sessions, the counsellor told me that I was doing the right thing by leaving my husband, that my husband WAS NOT a nice man (as I had maintained) and that, NO, I did not need to be on medication as I had inquired about consistently. Then, my husband went to see him alone. On my next visit, alone, the counsellor said that my husband was indeed a nice man and was very, very plausible. For the remainder of the session I felt attacked, defenseless and dumbfounded. The counsellor suggested that I may be manic-depressive, that I should be seeing him at least twice a week and that I should be seeing a psychiatrist for medication. I was totally shaken by this experience. I knew that manic-depression was serious but didn't know much about it. I couldn't get in right away for an appointment with the Dr. he recommended, so, I went to the bookstore to find out everything I could about the illness. "The Unquiet Mind" by Kay Redfield Jamison is the book I bought. It was an excellent source. I was relieved to discover that I AM NOT manic-depressive. I had rage, yes, but it was rightful rage regarding my circumstances. And based on what my husband probably told the counsellor, a person of such a description would be mentally ill. That's how believable my husband is. The last thing the counsellor said to me was that counsellors are supposed to remain unbiased and non-judgmental. I just sat there and smiled at him thinking to myself that he was doing just the opposite! What a hypocrite! I subsequently discovered that this counsellor not only didn't have a Ph.D., he didn't have a masters degree! He had a chain of letters after his name on his business card: EdM, LPC, CAC, CDVC and DABFC and last but not least, President! To put it succinctly and in "his own" words, It doesn't mean anything!
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, August 04, 2000
S1
Oooops! Addendum to submission: Aug. 4, 2000 The counsellor had a masters in Education. (Which isn't a big deal.) What I meant to say is that he was basically operating under the LPC. But if a counsellor doesn't have a Ph.D., then find someone else.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, August 07, 2000
S1
Yes, my therapist told us that there is an imbalance of control in our relationship and I have all of it. He has told my husband in one on one relationship that my husband has been very calm throughout of our sessions. When I asked my husband what that meant, he told me to figure it out. I couldn't because I wasn't there. But what I do know from researching this web page is that I was angry, frustrated, and confused. I wanted an answer and I wanted my husband to realize what he was doing. My solution was that I left the marriage. I was not going to put up with the therapist telling me that I had all the control. Thank you so much for this website. You helped me hit the nail on the head!
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, August 17, 2000
S1
My husband's therapist talked me into using him as our relationship therapist, assuring me that he would have no bias toward my husband (he told me that he just happens to be good at not taking sides, even when one of the people had been his individual client--and I fell for it!) When I told him how verbally abusive my husband becomes whenever he's stressed, and whenever we'd argue, he told me that I needed to stay physically present (meaning not leave the room, much less the house); in other words, just stay there and take it and try to reason. After a couple of months of this "technique," my husband, during one of our arguments, threw me to the ground and held me there, squeezing me to the point where I could hardly breathe, and probably bruised my ribcage (I didn't go to the hospital, because he's a doctor and I thought someone in the ER would know him, etc.). When I told the counselor about it, and told him that in the next session I wanted him to help me sever my relationship with my husband (wanting a safe place to do this), the counselor was silent. I asked him if he would please help me, and he said, "Well, that's not really the way I'd choose to spend my Friday afternoon." I never went back to that therapist. However, I never left my husband, either. I've been too afraid.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, August 31, 2000
S1
Were the abuse issues in my marriage addressed? Definitely not. I was an Adult Child of Alcoholics; therefore, I needed to work on myself, change my ways of thinking and responding, reframe, re-everything!! All my therapy was geared to making adjustments in myself so that I could continue to stay sane in an insane situation. I clearly recall the visit during which I told my psychiatrist about my readings on emotional and verbal abuse. When she asked me if I felt abused, I responded yes. End of discussion. She never mentioned it again. When I'd run out of professionals to go to, an advocate at the local women's shelter finally set me straight on abuse issues. Less than two months later, I filed for divorce. A dozen years of therapy and an emergency hospitalization, and I still thought (an no one disabused me of this notion) that it was all my fault -- I just wasn't trying hard enough, hadn't read the right book, just needed a few more sessions.....nearly 20 years of my life, my sense of se