Comments to The Controlling Caregiver

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos  Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000

S1

Who's been talking to my controlling caregiver? The description in blue fit mine to a tee and yes, he is always giving my things away to other people - "you don't use it so why shouldn't I give it away". He has turned our house into a boarding house with his adult children living there for free along with an overseas visitor. I had no say in the matter, although I pay all the utilities, and he also wants me to take care of all the groceries and feed them. It's only my house when it's dirty and needs attention or we are out of something that we all use, (of course, I'm the only one that can do this) and my goodness, I'm the only one that knows how to clean the bathroom, otherwise it's his house and I have no say in what goes on in it.

I'm always made out to be the bad guy, enemy or whatever and of course, he is "terrific" or they think the world of me." (usually referring to what his women friends think of him). He has even told me that no one likes me.

I can't wait to read more about this type of individual. Perhaps some hints on how to deal with them as well would be helpful.

Thanks ls  Good searching ls! You found this page while it was under construction - 10 days prior to finally getting finished! Good thing I didn't say anything incriminating! Dr. Irene

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

I wasn't sure if this is the right place to ask, but are there controlling victims who fall under this behavior, too? Oh yes! Some of the awfulest controlling caregivers are the newly empowered  victims of abuse in early recovery. Sometimes, these people get stuck in this self-righteous mode... But that's another article.

I am concerned about a friend of mine, we both feel she is being abused, but her attitude is, "All he has to do is what I say and he will get better because I have read so much on abusers that I know what he needs to do. I point it out to him all the time, and I get so mad that he just doesn't get it!"

Well, as a codependent myself, I want to be supportive without butting in, but I don't see how her behavior differs too much from his on some levels. They both think they know what is best for the other, they both want to fix the other, they both insist that they are the only right one, and both become angry because their expectations are not met. Is there any solution to this? Thanks.  None that you can implement. This is an example my position: People abused in childhood can go both ways... Scary stuff. Live and let live.

 B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

I am a care-taker/controller! Wow, that is hard to swallow, but I see it in myself very clearly. Great! What I want to know is how to stop the behavior? Pay attention to yourself and don't act out. I think the answer is to love and to give without expecting anything in return. That is a big part of it. My dilemma is that I am married to a man who uses alcohol. I believe he is an alcoholic. So I wonder if my behavior stems from wishing and desiring a connection with someone who can't. How could it not? I need to feel safe in this world, I know. 

I wish I had more self-confidence and self-wholeness not to NEED someone to fill me up. How can I feel safe when I can't count on my mate? By counting on yourself... Also, I have 2 children, and it is hard not to control their behavior. What do I do with all this anger? I get really mad when my husband or my children don't do what I ask/demand. I learned this technique from my family. My mother is a controller. I know she did the best she could with the knowledge she had at the time. I would like to be more healthy. It is hard to get there when you live with an alcoholic. I guess I am constantly focused on him instead of me. Wishing he would treat me a certain way. Thanks, Trying to Let Go 

Constantly remind yourself of the consequences associated with control: rebellious, resentful, and passive aggressive children and partners. Is it really worth it? Pay attention to you. Don't act out. Give others choices. By the way, Assertive Discipline for Children would be an excellent book re: your kids. , Codependent No More  will help you disengage from controlling your husband. Good luck to you...

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Dear Confused Victim, You sound very much like my husband. From his point of view, I am "controlling"-maybe that is true. I worked very hard at trying to control myself, described by him as too sensitive, not sensitive enough, too easy, too hard-very confusing. In areas I once felt sure of myself, more and more doubt was instilled. Being conscientious and too responsible and wanting to do things "right", I'd bend to try and conform to his expectations so much that I felt like a pretzel. It no longer seemed okay just to be myself. He'd also set rules for our boys, but be the first one to break them (e.g. no rough housing). Our boys grew up with mixed messages. They were also afraid to say things to dad "because he might get mad", so I also became the mediator, the messenger, the peacekeeper, dad's protector/justifier (because of his family background of abuse and neglect), the encourager, the supporter. I tried too hard to be "perfect", to keep everyone happy. I put my own needs and desires aside to make my family number one. to to fit his mold. But I always somehow missed the "mark". 

When I did do something for myself, or made a mistake, it was later thrown in my face during arguments - another stab, another "gotcha". As our boys grew older, having observed dad's models of behavior, seeing me back down more and more, they pushed my limits in the same way too. Mainly guilt trips because they knew mom was easy. Often arguing "Dad does it" or "Doesn't do it that way." Because I don't believe in double standards or that kids should be seen and not heard, not be entitled to opinions, "second class citizen's as one son said, I had a hard time justifying and sometimes supporting dad. 

When a "healthy" caretaker gives, it is with the intent of mutuality-wanting to bring love, joy and nurturing to others unconditionally. The "reward" is in seeing the other person happy. In our situation, he initially made me feel very loved, but was also moody, insecure about himself, unable to ever apologize, and his tremendous anger (yelling over me, holes in walls) became very intimidating. I often cried "uncle" just to stop the confrontation. It was scary for me to see such displays of anger. Then he'd be loving-he'd gotten his way, showed me how he was right all along. In a way, I "controlled" by learning to manage the situation. Walking on eggshells so as not to inadvertently set things off. Trying to anticipate needs to avoid being criticized for not giving enough, knocking myself out to try and be his image of a good wife and mother. I was "put in charge" of keeping things running as smoothly as possible>Taking care of everyone but myself-and I really have only myself to blame for allowing things to get in that unbalanced a relationship. It seemed the more I did, the less he did. I felt more used than loved. I did become more and more angry and resentful, but "stuffed" the feelings often because they weren't natural or acceptable ways for me to feel. And I was told many times "I don't care how you feel." (obviously) or when I'd explain/defend my actions or words-"That's not why you did it or said it" (amazing he'd know my thoughts and feelings better than me-more like he just couldn't relate to anything/anyone not just like him. He'd say "You're not my mother" yet that's what I began to feel like, but didn't want to be. Upset feelings were not shared nor empathized with. Only blame leveled. I tried fighting back his way, but felt horrible later and would apologize. I'd do something stupid out of hurt and anger, trying to retaliate, but then later back down or apologize in shame of my behavior. That only gave him more ammunition. He said how he "always supported me" - not really! Only when what I did was approved of by him. It was a no-win situation, Captain Kirk! The aggression fostered feelings of aggression, the lack of empathy or attempts to understand me, led to distance, reducing feelings of intimacy such that "lovemaking" felt more like an obligation rather than a tender exchange-passion was extinguished. My philosophy is that people are like glasses filling others and needing to be filled in return. My glass gradually and nearly emptied. I held on desperately to the little that remained. At that point I was considered "not uncaring enough" about his needs. Sorry, but I couldn't give up my soul, I couldn't go on feeling like a possession, an object. 

So, "confused victim" were you happy to take and take? Did you need so much more than you could give in return. Sounds like you viewed this giving as another "competition", "keeping score" and because you weren't about "to lose" or let her be "one up" in your mind, she naturally was "wrong" again. How did you show appreciation? What did you give back to fill her again? Was there ever the true give-and-take that is the basis for friendship-your partner should be your best friend. Do you treat your "friends" the same way? Sunshine (nickname I chose because I love the sun and warmth, always try to keep a positive sunny outlook and never stay down for too long).

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene:

What an insight. I just left a relationship with a controller/caregiver. When I met him he did everything no one ever did for me before. He used to get down and tie my shoes. I didn't ask; he just saw one day my shoe was untied and did it. Wow! I thought how wonderful for someone to care so much. I had no idea that the other side of that caring was abuse like I had never known.

I wanted a relationship with him because I thought he would love me like that and build a life with me. I thought he would allow me to love him in return and when I tried no matter what I did it was wrong.

He was a caregiver and as he told me, I do what I want to do. He was telling the truth. He gave me what he wanted to give. If he gave it, ok. But if I wanted something else, all hell broke loose and the battle was on to keep it from me. He never really offered anything to me and constantly controlled every resource he could have shared.

It was so strange how he would tell me I didn't ask. So I would ask and then he would tell me I did it wrong and then I would say what behavior would feel right to you. He would say I can't tell you I'm not safe. Then if he would listen to my request he would plea ignorance and state he didn't know what on earth I wanted. Sorry Charlie, I saw him do this one at work. He would "act" like he didn't understand an assignment and eventually his boss would give it to someone else. He was devastated when he was fired on the spot after 14 years of service. I really don't believe he made the connection between his behavior toward work assignments and getting fired.

Let me take a leap here. I really don't believe he makes the connection between how he treats me and how I respond. He constantly tells me how hurt he is while negating my input about his behavior 100%. He can't get out of his own long long enough to see your point of view.

It is just my opinion, it seemed like he took great pride in making me want and making it my fault for wanting. He told me so many times I can't count if only I would ________ , then he would give me exactly what I wanted. Sounds as realistic as, "If I only lost 10 pounds / had a nose job / etc., I'd be happy..." 

Is this what makes the abuse cycle? Adult caregiver makes an effort and the child gets upset and gets abusive? Kind of. The kid doesn't get what he/she thinks he/she should have. Watch out!

After a while I couldn't enjoy the good because it felt like a worm with a hook. I felt like this is just a set-up so he can get on my good side. For over two years he would hurt me and then be wonderful, until I became warm and open to him then it would happen again.

It is hard for me to believe no one can make you feel angry. I accept the guilty part but angry I'm not sure. He did so much crap to me, I feel angry. Is this what your talking about? Your anger is a healthy signal that something is wrong. What is most important is what you do (or don't do) with that anger. How you behave. I do know how to stop feeling angry. Stay away from him. It is tuff because  miss the wonderful part of him, but I couldn't stand one more day with the abuser part of him. Sad, isn't it...

I was just thinking today that he might be a multiple personality. Actually a dual personality. One kind, generous, funny, loving and good the other selfish, hateful, vengeful, angry, sadistic and would cut your heart out and watch it beat in his hand. This is the God's truth, if you yelled and cried because your heart had just been removed and was missing, he would say can't you shut up all that wailing your making me miserable with your behavior. Then if he would be wonderful for a few days and I would paddle down that river in Egypt (De Nile) and say something about our future together he would say I can't marry you "YOU HAVE BEHAVIORS I CAN'T MANAGE"! Yea, like I cry when I'm hurt and I am afraid of someone who would hurt me. These to him were "reasons not to marry me". Wow! This is the adult and the kid... Very split off pieces... Not that far off from a multiple, but not as far gone.

It was so painful to look at him and listen to him after a while because when he was good. He was very, very good, and when he was bad he was horrid. I began to associate him with pain and suffering. The good caregiving didn't fix the memory of how he would torture me.

A few of his behaviors were consistently negative. He never had any empathy or compassion for anyone. If it happened to him, he would sulk and pout and be sad and drag around like a lost little boy. I should clarify: if he did something to someone else he would pout, be sad and drag around because the other person hurt him by being hurt. It's wild, isn't it? If it happened to anyone else it was their fault. He would only admit he was wrong after I made an issue of it, and then he would scream in my face: I'm wrong; are you happy now!!! He would tear me down for a behavior he hated for me to do. Guess what? He would be doing the very behavior he was telling me was unacceptable. "Projection" is the psych term for that. Cast-off parts of himself he does not recognize... I would say to him, "Isn't that exactly what your doing right now?" He would loose it then. He never admitted he did anything. Finally, you are seeing things clearly.

I agree the victim doesn't have to bite, and for me that meant being away from him. No matter how hard I tried he could figure a new way to abuse me that he hadn't done before. He could do things that I would react to, even thought I didn't want to react. Yes. You are not alone; this is a typical complaint.  

I will give myself credit. I learned to stop and say enough. :) I learned his words had no meaning. Example: He would look at me and say, "I wish I could talk to you." Then, I would work really hard at listening to him while he launched the next abuse attack. I spent 2 years being screamed to the floor almost every day because I was trying to listen to him. I wanted him to know even though he had been hurt, I loved him enough to listen. Yeah, he verbally beat me down - and guess what happened when I got tired of crying and begging him to stop? When I got off the floor and said, "Maybe it is time for a few changes from you." He would ignore my every word and get his stuff and promptly walk out the door. Every time! Now you're catching on.

I do need to thank him. Before him I didn't know how to stop myself from talking, and after the severity of his abuse and trying to please him, I learned to shut up and be quiet. I wasn't always able to keep a secret, and after living with my partner, the secret service guy, I can. Yes, I can tell you, but then I will have to kill you. I can keep anything from anyone. I don't, but I can. He also taught me being alone, which I am terrified of, is better than being with him and being terrified of his next abuse. Last but not least, he taught me to never and I do mean never, allow anyone to talk to me like a dog: yell, cuss, scream, hit, diminish, blame, withhold, obit, disregard me, or anything else abusers do. If someone wants a piece of me, I get out of Dodge fast. You are one wonderful lady who grew and become more whole as a result of your time in hell...

What is sad: I love him and maybe I always will. I wake up and miss him and I miss him all day long and when I go to sleep at night I miss him again. Hold on Faith. The more distance you have from him, the better you will feel. At some point, you will count your lucky stars you got out.

I had hoped somehow he would look at your site and see something that would change his mind. He is just a poor victim and I am the abuser. He doesn't see what he does to others. All he sees is what they do to him and if they are responding to his abuse he thinks it is not anything to do with his behavior. 

His denial is so thick you couldn't cut it with a chain saw. He told me the other day that he could be close and loving with someone safe. Yes. With the fictional perfect mother-woman.

Maybe you could give some hints on how to respond to this adult/ child person. You responded very well. You gave every benefit of the doubt, and beyond. You can't do anything about his broken pieces. Only he can.

I have tried everything. I believed when I met him that everyone was a lock and if you could find the right key you could open them. Nope, I was dead wrong. Some people are a lock left in the rain and snow so long that is rusted and stuck even if you find the key the lock doesn't work anymore. He is the only one who can turn that lock...

Sincerely, Faith 

Why not take me up on my offer Faith?

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

To me, these types are what I refer to as "Pirates". The analogy that I visualize is this: You're the captain of your sailboat in the sea of life. Your sailing along minding your own business, when another sailboat pulls along side of you in a friendly manner. You think great.....company on my journey of life...and invite the other captain on board as a guest. You are enjoying yourself and are being the best host you know how. The problem is, this person whom you think is a guest, isn't. This other captain climbed aboard your ship with a hidden agenda. That agenda being is to become the captain of your ship...and reduce you to a hand deck. Nice analogy!

The next thing you know, your guest is now rearranging your sails and refuses to let you have the wheel. Tells you what a lousy sailor you are and takes over your ship. You watch in horror as your guest throws your belongings overboard. The next thing you know is, you have declared mutiny on your guest....and throw him overboard. 

While getting your ship back into ship shape...you realize...what an idiot your guest was...and what nerve they had. You also think, how could they not realize, that you can't sail two ships at once. If they were so busy sailing your ship... who was sailing theirs?

The moral of the story is......these "Pirates" can't live their own lives...they live vicariously through living others lives. I find them selfish...yet very amusing. We each get only life to live at a time....this sense of entitlement to live more than one life at a time is just so needy and greedy.

I will admit that when I do run into this type ....I think to myself...uh..okay I got your number....laugh to myself...actually LMAO..and think oh no you don't...... drop dead.....I'm the captain of my own ship...no matter what you say or do. Then I chuckle to myself again and wonder if they are the nosy neighbor that others talk about and make fun of.

Perhaps I'm a little quirky with how I view this type...but I find them very funny, because their behavior is so absurd to me. But then again, a sense of humor can be a good thing when dealing with annoying people.

Very nice! And good for you! How do you identify these people? That's been the topic of lots of questions lately. Any sage observations "Captain Lady"?

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

I used to think of myself as a loving and giving person - three years with someone who gives on his own agenda, screams when I don't notice, refuses to give what is asked for or to accept any gifts in return - have turned my heart hard and empty. Holidays? you can be sure he will ruin them with his anxiety over preparations, call me "disorganized" and criticize everything I buy or chose to give. Birthdays? Either I will ask for something and be damned sure NOT to get it or I will get a grand gesture and not behave the way he wants and be on the other side of a verbal tirade, wondering what I did for days. God knows I am not allowed to give to him or celebrate him in any way. He would return whatever to the store or tell me he didn't need it or put it in the closet and never use it or leave it in the box on the dining room table for months where I would have to look at it I found myself wondering what I did wrong- why he didn't love me. I assume that now you know that it is himself he did not love...

When I want a hug I damn well better be able to settle for an oil change or folded laundry. If he does ANYTHING he logs it in his memory bank, and it is fodder for years. When I ask for anything, a nice word, a trip to the movies, I will hear "But I did ..." - yeah, three years ago!

Don't get me wrong - I don't want much. I didn't ask him to throw his life at me and blame me for not appreciating his sacrifice. Many times I have asked him to let me do things - I was capable before I met him, I think (although I am no longer so sure), begged him to STOP fixing things and to just BE WITH ME. He never could. He was always making lists for me but I was never on the list. And if I dared say anything I was beat down verbally so badly sometimes I don't know which way is up. I think you know which way is up now.

It took so much insight for whomever to see the combination of controlling caregiver in themselves or their partner - thank you for pointing this out to me. I believe I can see the source of my abuse now. :)  Thanks, but the idea for this piece came from the writer of the original email.

I have noticed that we are not able to plan ANYTHING together- shopping trip, vacation, a savings account- any insight on this? Is it related to the controlling abuser or is it a trait of all abusers? Thanks. Most abusers, because they will not / cannot be a partner, make it very difficult to work together on anything! 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Some behavior, however oppressive, is so endemic and widespread that we almost have to call it "normal." Is this disease curable? Even if we don't live in an abusive home, we all know one of these Controlling Caregivers. That is so true... I often toy with the idea of abuse as "normal." It's so prevalent, I think we - people - are typically broken, disconnected from our inner selves, and often clueless about meeting the tasks we need to master in order to fulfill our very individual human potential...

We may not match his standard of caregiving, but we can pay a terrible price for it. Yes. But, so does the abuser.

He is exquisitely tuned in to what we think of him, looking for "needs" and "problems" we have and using them to manipulate us, to push his "solutions" on us whether we like it or not. He's fixed so many of our problems, that we might wonder how we ever did without so much of his "help." Only some of his victims realize why it is they feel so angry or depressed in spite of it all, why their lives are still "never quite right," and often worse - which only gives the Controlling Caregiver more excuses to interfere.  

He in turn wants to know every detail of our lives, who we are, what we're doing and why--and what we might be doing "wrong." He always knows what's "best" for us. He fusses over whether we're "eating properly" and "looking after ourselves" the way he wants us to. Sometimes when we don't, he contrives ways of punishing us for it, although it's none of his business.

He pushes his care on us while demanding that we pay for it. And yes, he will give someone else the shirt off our back, calling it "his" as he does so. What's worse, we can't leave him, because he stalks us wherever we go.

Our job is to set clear, firm limits on what is acceptable from him. Yet even when we've done just that, he finds ways to "reinterpret" those limits, trespassing further over our boundaries on the pretense that "we didn't really mean what we said earlier." Sometimes we get angry at this and compel him to back off for a while. Yet always he returns, looking for still more ways to control us.

The only excuse I can find for such a person is that he may not be fully capable of taking responsibility for himself. When Controlling Caregiver behavior is endemic and widespread, too many people, far from setting limits, encourage him to act the way he does. Yes. I think there is a real problem with the way our society thinks and how we teach our children to become cut off from their inherent inner wisdom.

He may be our big brother, though often we see him in female form, which we call some name like "Nanny." But he knows who he is, and that he's really our Uncle. That's right, Sam, I'm talking about *you*!  

- Gordon   

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Hi Dr. Irene,

I'm glad you liked my analogy of the controlling caretaker. That's a good question, how do you spot them. I will do my best to explain it. But I find it somewhat difficult to do...as it's like a recipe you have in your head...that doesnt't use exact measurements...but instead uses pintches of this an that.

You won't spot them instantly. But you can within a few weeks. It's no one particular thing they do but a combination of them and to what to degree. I've met this type mostly in the business world....and I have dated this type also...but they never lasted long with me.

I will explain what goes through my mind...I think this is the best way to explain it.

First it's a feeling I get. They seem to eager to help you and please you. Their help and advise is not sought after by you....instead it's served to you on a silver platter. Then I think to myself...hmm...wonder how much they are charging me for this...I envision....this incredibly expensive invisible bill they are writing up.

They act superior to you...they are know it alls....they are critics. They don't exchanged ideas with you....they give you orders. They are extrememly opinionated.

When I observe their interaction with others, I notice......they are not relaxed.... they are always watching others to the point of spying on them and ease dropping on their conversations. I call them the noisy buttinski.

I can feel the vibes they give off. It feels like uptight....negative..smothering. They ask tons of questions and second guess every single stinking thing you say or do.

I feel like they are not trying to connect with you.....but merge and meld with you... sort of like the a sci-fi movie...the body invaders..hehe. They want to conquer you... not team up and join forces with you. Independance...is a dirty word to them. And they do not respect boundaries. Their goal is to make you so dependant on them so they can make you subserviant to them. They are very possesive....as well as insecure and very jealous/envious.

To me....I see a very insecure terrified person...scurring around desperate for a conquest. The energy they expend sticking their nose in and minding everyone elses business..I find incredible..and can't believe they don't end up dropping dead of exhaustion.

They keep their distance if they know you got their number. They do not tangle with certain personality types. Of course there are excepts to that rule.

This is how I handle them. I tell them...I am only going to say this to you once..... I am the type of person who has strict boundaries... I take great offense when they are are crossed. I view whatever has invaded my boundaries as mine...and I will do with them as I damn well please and without mercy. I will warn you only once to immediately get out and back off. If you ignore that warning you will regret it. If you continue to ignore the warnings....I won't warn you anymore.....I'll just attack with increasing ammunition till you either withdraw for good or get anniliated. I cannot and will not have you messing with my ship.

I hope this answers you question.

The lady captain.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Lady Captain,

You say independence is a dirty word to controlling caregivers- I agree with you as long as your not talking about their independence. I feel that they think they need their independence in order to be able to do everything, including thinking of the best way for everyone else to do things.

I have noticed that my guy wants to help me in every little way to the point that I do not have to make decisions. However I best not ask him to do anything specific for me or be anywhere at a specific time that interferes with his independence. It's his way or no way. He is free to tell me how he will help and do everything. I am free (as far as he is concerned) to take his advice or let him do it his way.

He gets to be independent, without any need for my input or advice. I get to depend on him for everything. He will do IT ALL with a flourish, just don't ask to help or suggest a better way. He believes the best decisions come right out of his little head (yes, he has even told me this) with no input or outside help. He refuses to depend on anyone. He expects that he should be able to do everything and heaven forbid if I don't notice everything he has done- I will hear about it.

Next time I will keep my antennae up. Men of action are great to have around so long as you don't ever want to do anything on your own.

Thanks,

Donna

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Hi. I recently ended a relationship with just such a controller. He gave me so much of what I never asked for, like coming over with his tools and fixing my house. He made me tapes of his favorite music, brought me flowers, but later complained that I bought a bad house and that I didn't appreciate the flowers and he could have spent the money for his children's college tuition. He gave with one hand and took with the other. When I gave him gifts, he wanted me to return them. I bought him some new sweatclothes to sleep in because he only had rags, and he said he would donate them to charity. He had a huge issue with money, and comdemned anyone who spent money on "toys" such as CD players, VCR's or even microwave ovens. He disapproved of my "farming out" work on my house, and acted like a burdened beast, as if he had to do all the work, when I had the money to have the work done professionally and never expected him to do anything!

You spoke of the agenda. This man always had an agenda, whether it was sexual or about where we would go or what we would do. Even after over a year of dating, he could never just come over and relax at my house, where I lived alone, just do laundry and rent a movie or watch TV. We always had to go somewhere, work on a house project, etc. When he was at my house he was either making love, asleep, eating, washing dishes or in the bathroom. There was never any relaxed, non-sexual down time. He had to go home to do that. I tried so hard to please him, thinking of food he liked to eat, being totally available sexually, listening as he ranted on and on about people with money who think that throwing money at a problem solves everything. He was very jealous and suspicious of other men hitting on me, but he was unable to make a commitment. I didn't need him to live with me, but I wanted the easy intimacy of just getting together in a relaxed, impromtu fashion to make dinner and hang out. Whenever he tried to please me by spending more time together, I would always pay for his concession by some form of verbal abuse. He was incredibly complimentary, and very seductive. I was told that I was the best woman that had come along in the eighteen years since his divorce, he would have had babies with me, I was the love of his life, etc., yet for eight months I never saw him on Friday nights unless there was a party he wanted me to go to with him. Otherwise he insisted on doing his laundry at the laundramat, had chores on Saturday and I didn't see him until Saturday night into Sunday. The words just didn't match the actions. When he agreed that I could come over after he finished the laundry on Friday nights, the first time we tried this he came out in a rage about people of my religion and how they had cheated the poor people in his neighborhood when he was a kid.

He had several major rages during the on and off year and a half of dating him, and many other times when he would rant about specific people who he felt had hurt him. More and more, I became the target of his rage. This man has been around Twelve Step rooms for many years but hasn't ever worked a program. He knew enough to call me a love addict/codenpendent, needy person, drama queen, etc. He would rage, then gradually apologize and want to be very close again. Over and over I took him back. I continued to work on myself in my own program and little by little I started to insist that he enter therapy both individually and with me in order to work on the wounds in his childhood that caused him to get triggered so easily. He didn't want to do that. It was easier to label me an addict, a Type A personality, too demanding, too sensitive, etc. After a bout with his dysfunctional mother, he ranted on the phone about how women weren't worth it, it was too much trouble to have "one of them" around. After over a year, it cut me to the bone to be put in a category like that. I told him the next day, after a sleepless night, how hurt I was, and his response was basically to forget the relationship.

He called a few more times and we rehashed the problems, and twice I slipped and was sexually intimate with him. Each time I saw him he promised to go to the therapist, and then reneged. Finally, he just said that he didn't want to be in a relationship with me, but that he as very attracted to me and it was a hard decision. He started to explain how close a decision it was. I finally had had enough. Instead of doing my dance and trying to convince him to change his mind, I cut him off and told him to leave me the ^%$# alone.

This man was verbally abusive, passive aggressive, and I was always off balance with him. It really hurts to know how hard I tried to be close, and I thought we were for so long, but his periodic episodes of abuse could leave me in a state of shock, confusion and shame. I felt like there was always something that I did or said that set him off. I think my real crime was being human, and being a woman. I'm resisting the urge to "run into" him and try to set it right, because there is no winning with this man. Help!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Dear Lady Captain:

You wrote:

"This is how I handle them. I tell them...I am only going to say this to you once..... I am the type of person who has strict boundaries... I take great offense when they are are crossed. I view whatever has invaded my boundaries as mine...and I will do with them as I damn well please and without mercy. I will warn you only once to immediately get out and back off. If you ignore that warning you will regret it. If you continue to ignore the warnings....I won't warn you anymore.....I'll just attack with increasing ammunition till you either withdraw for good or get anniliated. I cannot and will not have you messing with my ship.

I hope this answers you question.

The lady captain."

I find your words inspiring!!! Isn't it great not to have to apologize for ourselves anymore? You've just reminded me that's it's all about me!!!!! Thanx!!!!!!

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

The controlling caregiver is not the least bit interested in your needing and wanting these things:

1) Respect

2) mutality

3) resiprocity

4) automony

They are dictators...and they have chosen you to be one of their lowly loyal subjects. Unlucky you.

If you ever hear yourself thinking or saying often...hey...what are you.. my mother? This is a red flag...this person is a pirate.

In order to be able to maintain stict boundaries you need to understand yourself very well. But even then there will be times (few and far between) that you accidentally or intentionally cross someone elses boundaries.

When someone crosses your boundaries...and you bring it immediately to their attention......they should stop on the spot...back out and apologize. That is how I handle it...if I accidentally over step my bounds. I also have the person explain to me how they knew I was in their boundaries...and think about what made me behave that way. None of us are perfect....but it's always a good idea to really learn from ones mistakes.....especially when it comes to boundaries. And since I have such strict boundaries....I am very concious of others boundaries.

You need to consult and consider the other person in decision's with them present. Each states their needs and wants...then you figure out a way to meet them. This lets you have sooth sailing.

I don't really have a good understanding of all the psychological labels and terms. I look at it in more simple terms. To me, codepedency is one who tolerates BS..... and an abuser is a BS artist. If someone gives you BS...it's their doing.....not yours. Just as if you tolerate it...it's your doing, not theirs. So put your foot down... it's a GOOD thing. And if some man is going to leave you because you put your foot down....well then you are better off. Why? Because it's easy to treat people like crap...and those that do .......they are dime a dozen.....you don't have to go out of your way at all to get treated like that.

Don't focus on what the guy gets if he's nice to you......and how to get him to be nice to you. The trick is to focus on what he gets if he's not nice to you. Actions speak louder than words....watch his actions......for they speak the truth.

The captain lady

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

Captain Lady-

You are my hero. Preach! Preach! (Not being sarcastic, folks, just really impressed :)).

I must confess, I am not sure who we are talking to here, but let me say this----

We all can change!!!! We can grow stronger! And we all have to change first, for our abusers to have even a hope of changing!!! As we change, we have to be alert for THE ABUSER IN ALL OF US (Well, this is true in my case, so I'm extrapolating!)

Well, whoever's on the receiving end of this advice, good luck!!! It's a long, tough road, but you take it one day at a time. No matter how many accusations are thrown your way, just keep telling yourself, "I'm OK" again, and again, and again......in fact never stop doing this. You have the courage of a lion in you, I know it! The lion is waiting to roar!!!!!

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

This sounds great and I understand it all, but I don't quite understand how I could practice these techniques with the person still in my life. And yet I love this person and want him in my life.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

I can't tell you how to change your partner, because I don't believe you can change people. I am of the belief that you have three options if you do not like they way you are treated. You chose to either: 1) put your foot down, 2) suck it up, 3) leave.

I also believe that the crux of the problem with these bad relationships is due to low self esteem.

When I was out there in the dating game, I made sure I took inventory of the condition the other captains ship was in. Those that pulled along side me, who's ships had tears in the sails, unpolished woodwork and too many barnacles on the hule, were not allowed to tether their ropes to my ship. I just waved and sailed on.

Sometimes a ship looked great on the outside, but once you were below deck, you found they were lacking in provisions and it was messy. I then untethered my ship and sailed off. I did notice that those captains gave back handed compliments to how nice my ship was kept. Refering to my ship as high maintenance. This when is when I thought to myself...ya right...you're just jealous....get lost.

I sailed for many years alone, finding some other nice ships along the way, but none that impressed me. Till one day, this other ship approached. Hmmmm I said to myself....this ship looks as good as mine. I'd really like to go aboard and check it out, so I did. Once aboard I was very happy to see he had it stocked with all the same provisions I had. It was neat and clean, but it was plain. Then I saw his charts, they were immaculate and extremely well done. I was very impressed.

So I invited him aboard my ship. When he went below, he thought it was the shiniest, cleanest and best decorated he'd ever seen. He was very impressed. He looked at my charts, and thought...good...but nothing special...he did them better than I did.

So I asked him to teach me how to make such nice charts. He did and was very nice about it. He inturn asked me to show him how to make his cabin shiny and attractive. So I did. I will never be able to do the charts as fabulously as he does them, but I can do them better now than I did before. He can now make his cabin shiny and nice, he can't do it as well as me, but better than he did it before.

We now sail through life together. I won't say it's perfect, cause it's not. But we are better off together than we are alone. I have my moments when I say... MEN!!!!..and complain to my girlfriends. But he is a person of quality.....he can't help it that the Y chromosome makes him an idiot at times. And so the battle of the sexes rages on. I sometimes wonder.....poor Eve, she had no girlfriends to commiserate with. Hmmm...perhaps that's why she made Adam eat the apple.

The moral of the story is....work on your own ship....and don't accept less. They will never treat your ship better than they treat their own. What you see is what you get. I'm not a pessimist nor an optimist....I'm a realist. I believe that water seeks it's own level.

Learn how to develop a healthy amount of self esteem. This will protect you from getting treated like crap. I'm not qualified to teach you how to do this...but Dr. Irene is. I can only tell you what worked and works for me.

I kept and keep my ship nice because I wanted to and because I wanted to attract and keep another nice ship.

The lady captain

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

What do you suggest when you take a step forward and you've been knocked down two? The time it takes me to get a grip and get back on track, I feel at times I'm not going to make it. What can a person do to take their mind off that down time?Sometimes it's a day or two other times it's been weeks. When it was weeks I felt great because I finally got off the eggshells I 've been walking on for 3 years now. To be totally honest I feel like I'm whining. And I'm tired of whining. I want to take control of my life and live happily ever after. I'm exhausted. I have 2 children to tend to, if I wanted 3 I would have had another. I want him to get off my case and go bother someone else when he get's whatever he has on his chest off than he can come home. I'm a good mom, a good friend, a good neighbor and if he don't like who I am how the heck can he love me? Were does he get off judging me and every move I make? Maybe he didn't eat right or enough(he's diabetic)maybe he forgot to take a pill(he's on prescription medicine for head injury)(which he abuses)I'm done with the excuses. I can't be responsible for someone who can't be responsible for themselves. I'm not going to be his scapegoat any longer. Okay now what? i don't want to fall into another similar situation I'm on my second one now. I want to be strong, I want to hold my head high. I just don't know how I'm going to do it

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000

S1

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000

S1

Dear Sunshine,

I would like to say in assisting in the understanding of my situation that am not happy constantly taking and taking even though it is not a not one way street. I did not need more than I could return, in fact I not only needed a lot less than I received but I could not use all of it at times. A competitive situation has evolved over the years because I have often been criticized by her for not measuring up to what she does or what she thinks others do and for not doing even more. Believe me, she keeps score and has a very vivid memory to match. I have given back all that I can but as the saying goes, one can not fill a bottomless pit. The more she does the higher her expectations get. Her extreme care giving, as seen in some examples above, does not always stop with our immediate household. It has extended to close relatives at times that did not need it ether to the point of burning her out and resulting in anger taken out at me. There was a give and take in our relationship in the beginning but as the years passed a viscous cycle developed where the anger and control grows to the point of creating real barriers to mutual give and take. I have tried to prevail anyway. I can not begin to remember all the times I have done something for her that I have hated to be doing because of recent verbal bashings and humiliations but I did because I though that later on it would be appreciated. These periods of verbal abuses have very often occurred at holidays and events like birthdays where she knows I would be doing something for her. Over the years I have lost my best friend. I can not be completely candid with my ideas and feelings without having them harshly judged or quickly dismissed. She is the controller who always knows best. As far as friends go, I don’t have any friends I can call my own. They must always be friends of both of us that she approves of. They are treated nicely as friends but that is as far as it goes. She gets much more consideration than any friend from me.

This is not a simple situation of care taking and appreciation. There are other problems in our relationship consisting of compulsive control and verbal abuse from anger.

I am not perfect by any measure but who is? There are always times we could act or say something better but I have not caused this to happen and have done the best I could overall.

You have a great nickname and an equally fine outlook on life.

Sincerly,

Confused Victim

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000

S1

Interesting. I fit in here somewhere but I can't put my finger on it. I am the one with some insecurity and therefore want to feel like I have somewhat of a handle on things..I (some control). However, my husband is the overreaching caregiver who will do do do what he thinks you should want but the one think he won't do is understand it when you didn't want him to do that at all. And most aggravating when you tell him what you want him to do that's definitely what he won't do no matter if you tell him it's the most important thing to you. Sorry for the vagueness but I am really in a mental and emotional bind and have been for so long I just don't know which end is up.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000

S1

Ladies, men, I just want to say something here, but very gently, as no one is asking for my advice. It seems that you all have had enough thrown in your faces. Can I very gently suggest, that, after we learn the labels thoroughly, about controller/caregiver, as well as abuser/victim, we start to peek behind the labels, and look for our confused selves there? I've been reading this page, and to be honest I see so much confusion, people wondering "what" they are, are they controllers, victims, what are they?

I am wondering, are you doing this because you want to, or because you feel you have to? I think it's ok not to label yourself at all. Someone may demand that you identify yourself. Sometimes you may even demand of yourself, a label. But I don't think you need to have one.

I may be way off base here, so for whatever this was worth.......

Dan

PS Sunshine I felt truly blessed reading your post. Your metaphor of filling each others cups was beautiful. May I suggest, though, that you keep a special cup aside for just you :):)

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000

S1

Hi Lady Captain here. My intent and purpose of my posts were to show you that good things can and do happen to you when you refuse to tolerate anothers BS. I won't lie to you and says it's easy in the short run, but I have found it's worth it in the long run.

My concern is that some of you put up with BS from your significant others because you are afraid to be alone and lonely. I've had my share of lonely saturday nights, but I refused to date a jerk rather than sit home and look at the four walls. I mean why bother eating fattening food you don't even like and are not enjoying.....I refer to it as empty calories. And the thought of all those sit ups that were now due...made me sick.

It's okay to be picky. It's okay to be alone on saturday night..I never grew a third eye from doing that....I swear.

This is what my mother told me. If he's not nice to you, doesn't care about your feelings and disrepects you.....dump his ass. Of course she's talking about the dating game here. Because once you marry them......they either stay the same or get worse.....they never get better. Don't waste your time with a jerk....when you could be spending it looking for Mr. Right. She also told me to join a club.... something you like to do...this is the best hunting grounds. I always used to picture myself hauling traps behind me when she used to preach this to me. Whenever I acted out these visions of mine....she'd laugh and call me a brat with a wicked sense of humor.

Mother was right....and to be fair...I gave credit where credit was due. She's still gloating about it to this day. She loves to tell me ...."see see...mother was right... aren't you glad you listened to me". Well, she did do an excellent job at picking out my dad.....however....I wish she'd would put a sock in it already. See, we all have our crosses to bare...ugh.

I hope I have imparted some knowledge here that will enable you all to find the happiness you deserve. Happy sailing to your new destination......the ocean of self esteem.

The Lady Captain

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000

S1

Captain Lady, you are right about victims putting up with BS from significant others because they are afraid of being alone. I know plenty of people like that, and some are men, not just women. You are right, until we learn to be comfortable ALONE, and get it in our gut that it's OKAY to be alone, we'll stay in bad relationships. I would rather be alone than in a bad relationship. Sis

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000

S1

This site always surprises me! Little did I know that me, a victim of a verbally abusive relationship in the past, would turn out to be controlling. I am one of those recovering victims who tries to control everything. I felt a lot of support when I finally realized what had happened to me, but was shocked when I realized that I had control issues...

I posted to the Message Board not too long ago about a guy I had started seeing. I was on the lookout for manipulative behaviors, potential abuse, etc. I asked for some advice about my new guy and boy did I get it! I was told to run from this guy and to get rid of him fast. I cried - I was angry that I had let myself get into another abusive situation...or had I? My best friend intervened after I had forwarded an email to her that he had sent me and she told me I should reconsider my anger (Because I got very angry at him for not responding to me the way "I" thought he should). This is when I realized that I was trying to control EVERYTHING. Granted my new guy is not perfect, but I realized that I was squeezing the life out of our inital spark of attraction. He of course became very turned off to me even after I apologized. I ended up dicussing with him how he felt and once I acknowledged what I had done and stating that I knew I could not fix it, he tranformed, as if lifted from a heavy burden (because it is isn't it?!). I had no idea that I had any control issues until now. I thought that because I was a victim of verbal and emotional abuse, I could do no wrong. I don't mean to diminish the advice I was given by obviously concerned posters, but I realized that I had some work to do and running from this guy wasn't going to solve my issues.

I am still dating this guy and I have tried to relax more and let things develop at their own pace. I promised my new guy that I would be less hard on him and stop picking him apart looking for flaws (because no matter how hard he tried to convince me, I was sure he was out to get me). I don't know where this relationship will go, but then again, who does? Hopefully I can learn to be less controlling so I can enjoy my life and an intimate relationship.

Thanks Dr. Irene for this wonderful site! Disillusionment, though negative in some people's eyes can really help people (like myself) grow into more loving human beings.

Robin A

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

Dr. Irene, This description of Controlling/Caregiver is exactly what I have experienced and left 7 months ago. I haven't read or heard anything as clear as this, even through years of therapy, just hearing about his irrationality and codependence. I couldn't even recognize for a long time, that it was verbal abuse. Seven months ago I left, the third time and last, but he is now harrassing me through the court system. He is obsessed with suing me on every false charge he can think of. Also he made a false charge by saying I slapped him and I was arrested and put in jail overnight. He has had third parties sue me, people I never even met. I wish I knew how to get the legal system to make him stop. Or to just see what he is doing, stalking through the court system. Mary Carter

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 27, 2000

S1

Dan- Just logged on again after a few days of seein if I'd get response to my comments. Kept reading and rereading my own posting-wondering if I was sounding too much like a martyr. Realizing there was a time when I was in a "pity-pot." It was of my own making, I could've stopped it by putting my foot down, saying "no", but that's always been a hard one for me, especially with people I care about or needed to feel "approved" by. I always had a hard time filling "my own cup" first. In retrospect, more carefully observing my own parents, my mom has always been a huge caretaker and martyr, while my dad was very controlling and laid lots of guilt trips. I grew up hearing complaints about my dad yet observing mom always putting herself last. Dad "loved me very much" (per mom), but I sensed it was only when I agree with him, was the perfect daughter. A simple look of disaproval made me feel shame or guilt for disagreeing, going against their wishes or incurring "disappointment." My "self-esteem" developed by always trying to be "responsible", "giving", "patient", "a good girl". As an only-child, I was often "triangulated", accused of "being on your mother's side" or "not understanding what your father has put me through." And "family" took care of eachother, more specfically "others first", otherwise I was called "selfish" . As I grew into "an adult", I was told "you'll always be my little girl"(mom)when I reminded her I was old enough to make my own choices or given looks of disapproval, head shakes, by dad, if I or others acted in ways he didn't like. Well, I learned my role well, gave myself over to my husband who was very insecure, needed unconditional acceptance, brought out my total "empathetic", "rescuer" "non-judgmental" "unselfish" nature by blaming the world for his woes. Yet he was terrified of feeing "controlled"-I had never felt like a "controller", never felt the need to compete, wanted to soothe. This poor "child-victim"-I thought my unconditional love and support would save him. The along come both my parents and his (!!!) who stirred resentments in me by criticing my husband-not to him, but to me! So I fluctuate between anger towards him and the "need to protect" him. I got stuck in the middle all the time-even between dad and children, trying to soothe, make excuses, protect all except myself. I was such a "caregiver" I feel pathetic to myself now-I respected others wishesabove my own, I thought I was being strong, but was really being weak. When exhausted, I'd sometimes lash back, could be verbally abusive, lost my patience (GOD FORBID!!!) When this happened, I wasn't living up to the "perfect" person I was taught I should be. Hence, as I have always been too quick to take blame, I spotted my "imperfections", how I might have "abused" or "controlled" but was also "victimized." You see, I didn't want to "unfairly" (and I try so hard to be fair) put all the blame on my husband. It can all become very confusing. No, I wasn't always the perfect wife, mother-but I do admit to it, can sincerely apologize. And I have become more "controlling" in terms of "self-control", "setting boundaries", not giving into feelings of "guilt" about doing something "selfish" or more accurately, self-preserving. And I am having trouble "letting go" of my husband. I still try to get him to look at himself, the "broken pieces" he "needs" (controlling caregiver?) to address rather than blame me. I'm still trying to "fix" him by offering resources, and I'm angry he won't listen to me, because his actions (e.g-divorce)are affecting me. So I pass on my "legacy" of instilling "guilt", thinking I have found the answers (rescuer) and he should listen to me for once (I'm a teacher by profession). So, are we not all victims, abusers, controllers, caretakers just coming from different life perspectives? I wish I knew the answer, I keep looking for them- always looked to as the "problem-solver"-a hard identity to give up. Unable to "control" my environment", those I love and NEED in my life leaves me feeling "powerless" at this time, feeling "out of control." It's very painful-being alone, lonely, not really having a strong "identity" after 22 years of having tried to mold myself to ft someone else's image of "perfection". My integrity is returning, my boundaries are firming-but I'm grieving at the loss of my dreams, the illusions clung to. How I wish it could all be "perfect." Sunshine (on a cloudy day)

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000

S1

Ouch this is eavy (for me)

Please bear with me, english is my second lanquage, I am one of those french guys...

Iknow this is not a divorce/separation site, but...

We were married 13 years (now separated and on course for divorce)

She was abused by her father at the age of 7, and comes from a dysfonctional familly caused by alcoholism of the father.

She had multiple depressions and burnouts, she consulted psychologists and did a therapy for survivors of abuse. She worked hard on herself for awhile, but never got rid of the things that hant her.

We were happy, good education, good jobs, nice home etc. (No kids)

I lost my mother in june 99 (last parent), and I was not there emotianaly for my wife until she left me for this man...

She saw him for the first time back in march 99 for a Reiki course. September she had another depression and consulted him as a psychotherapist (one of the another things he does in life). He told her in a 1 hours cession to confront her father, She did and started to fall in love with this man. She is 35, her is 57, her father is 62. (I am 35). She left me march 8, and refused al my offers to try to save our marriage.

Anyway..

I am glad I found your site (someone suggested it on another site..WillingSpirits.

Co-dependant care taker that is me to a T. I always loved her very much, but never really received back her love. I took care of her, I was the caretaker and very co-dependant. We did almost everything her way, we saw who she wanted to see and when she wanted, she went places she wanted, I let her do things she wanted to do. It always as been about her, not me or us. She wanted a dog, we got a dog despite my concerns, she wanted a huge deck for the pool, we got a huge deck for the pool. This was her beahavior all the time, I always had to be there for her, always had to think ahead for her, it's always been about her. She could never accept responsabilty for her actions, she never accepted people the way they are.

I realize lots of things about us, and about her, she let her inner child take control of her life and our marriage. The one time I truly needed her (to confort me with my lost), she was not really there. And since I was not ther for her for awhile she concluded that I had abondond her and our marriage, this "child" reacted by running from the problem. She leaves for an older man, she wants to marry him and have his children, she does not talk much to her familly now, she as stop her part of the payment for the mortgage. It seems to me she is running away from things that were once her life and things she loved dearly. I truly think that her inner child as taken full control now of her life and is putting her on a path of destruction.

Anyway, true all this I am finding out that I am co-dependant, I am learning about me, I am learning what went wrong in our realationship, I am finding in myself a new man, one that does not need to be validated by anyone to be happy in life, I am seing a spychologist and working hard on myself.

Thanks.

Pierre the french guy.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 29, 2000

S1

Hi my name is Liz. I was brousing and came across this sight, very interesting. I've been in a relationship off and on for 4 yrs. there is codepency and abuse. We tried counseling I have gone to codepency meetings and some anger management workshops. All of these programs have helped and made me aware of all sorts of issues w/me and my partner. I've done some family of origin work, and some healing for myself. I grew up witnessing my mother being abused verbally, emotionally and physically. My brother and I were abused in all areas as well. So the inevitable I picked abusive relationships where I was abused and I am an abuser. It has been a constant battle for me to become a healthy person and partner. I am a controlling caretaker, have been the victom and the perpitrator. I relate to some of the symptoms of a controlling caretaker, however I am someone who will admit to my partner I am abusive I was wrong, there is no excuse. This is not a question but maybe a statement. What about the many people out there who are in both roles of being abused and abusing in a codependent relationship and admit there wrongs and try to make amends and try to seek counseling to change there unhealthy behavior but their partner doesn't acknowledge this and continues the never ending cycle of dysfunction and says "I want to make this work and doesn't show by action, but by words" So does this mean because I'm a controlling caretaker, what they do is never good enough and never will be..or it's just time to get out, becouse it's just not a 50/50 effort. I know if your not happy and you've tried to make it work the best you can, people say it's time to let go and get out. It is difficult when each partner switches roles from victum to perpitrator, it just seems like a never ending battle with that combination. I recently decided to get out because I feel like I'm treading water and not getting anywhere with this person. There are too many triggers for both of us. Our codependency has masked our true love, it is sad and painful but a part of healing and taking care of me. I don't want to be an abusive person or abused anymore

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Date: Monday, May 29, 2000

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Date: Friday, June 02, 2000

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I have found you cannot set limits with verbal abusers. They go bonkers. Their need is to be the "authority" on everything, so they cannot allow you to have limits--they did not set them. Pat Harris-Pascale, MA

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Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

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Wow, this sounds familiar. The perfect spouse who makes me look like dirt even though I am a pretty good person. And about the pity parties, what sort of childhood experiances cause this constant need (it seems) to be felt sorry for?

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Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

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I work with some one who is self - Narcistic. Please explore this kind of behavior.

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Date: Tuesday, June 06, 2000

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Dr. Irene...As a child I was sexually and emotionally abused. I moved to be with my mother when 10 and lived with alcoholism until leaving home. It was a walk through hell. I thought when I married and left home it was behind me. What I discovered was that it drove decisions throughout adult life. Now that I am married to someone who has turned out to be a verbal abuser, I have found that this taps into those early years of CNS damage which has effected a type of hypervigilence in the nervous system. He will aggitate on and on until he sees there is ANS arousal, and only then will he back off. Nothing stopped him--I have tried every method. Many of his verbal outburts bordered on sadistic. I attribute his military training to offering him methods to throw the other person off balance--and no matter how much logic and wisdom I used to counter, he knew a better method the next time. When I confronted him with this, he denied and acted disgusted. In the past couple of years since moving to the southwest where I have been validated by others he has subsided in this behavior somewhat. I attribute this not only to the validation, but to an increasing improvement in health as I move out of his influence. What I do believe, however, is that if I ever get sick again, he will once again bully me. As I am over 60 now, I find this a chilling throught.

I am currently beginning to build a financial account to offer some stability--even though his behavior has improved dramatically. I cannot foresee it reaching a level of security that would offer relief from worry; on the other hand if I can achieve enough income to survive with basic needs, I feel this is better than risking another bout of ill health while with him. Leaving him without familial support at this age is a dreadful thought. On the other hand, I feel I must do something.

He refuses a separation, refuses to give alimoney (we have been married for 12 years, together for 15). And he knows that I am tied to him with medical insurance (military) so he thinks I cannot make that move. Once when I stated no amount of money was worth staying, he backed off. Yet even my neighbor sees him treat me with disdain and then turn around and smooze her with charm--all in the same interval. Clearly he has been using his financial support as a club over my head to keep me in the relationship, and to keep abusing me in whatever ways he can.

I understand his control methods, I am building new strengths, and like some others who post, I have appreciation for the new skills built while dealing with this situation. As I begin to build secure areas for myself, I feel less reactive to his bouts of abuse.

This is a second marriage. When I left the first I felt a failure. With this one I feel freer and more aware of who I am. Strenght came from the validation finally offered--yet neither from family nor long-term friends who would have given me much if they had just responded to my comments when I began to talk to them about the devil behind closed doors. Many of them witnessed his behavior--and still said what a wonderful man he was, etc.--pointing to the false image he projected and his accomplishments. I felt as I did when a child and no one believed or validated me. At this location everyone says what they witness--it has been a blessing to me that is powerful, offering strength and conviction. I have had trouble forgiving family and friends on the Coast for withholding this important support.

Everything right now is in the quiet stage--like the calm before a storm. I only know one thing--I would like to live my final years in peace with laughter and fun, making contributions to others as I am able. Right now I am building strengh and hopefully a little better financial position, clearing bills and fixing health problems. I do not have family to rely on. I recall a motto on my high-school auditorium wall--I will study and get ready and perhaps some day my chance will come. And so it is for me. As long as I have a reprive I can build. However, leaving is not that simple--no matter how right one thinks they are, there are psychological matters to address that have to do with living alone at my age. And so I admit I am fearful about the future that is out of my view.

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Date: Friday, June 16, 2000

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My MOm is just like this, it is a very dificult and unhappy way to grow up. As a child, i never developed any kind of personality and now i feel self pity because i have wanted my mother to die for most of my life and even now,i always wish she would die so she would finally be gone and no longer a part of me. No one in my family talks to her, she is so so difficult and always very sharp tongue and critical. She always told me when i was young that she wished i was dead and that she hated me so so much. It was a very wierd way to grow up and i had so much shame becuase everyone in the neighborhood thought i had the strangest mom and no one wanted to be around me....it was quite awful...quite awful.

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Date: Thursday, June 29, 2000

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This article could have been written about a person I met about 2 months ago. We started dating and the very first week we made plans to get together and he didn't show or call. When I expressed my feelings about this incident I was told that I was right and that I didn't deserve to be treated that way. Unfortunately, after that it was the only way. About a week ago we were discussing this problem. All I was asking for was a call if he was running late. He said he refused to be told what to do. I didn't see how making plans and agreeing on a time to get together was telling him what to do. The discussion got more heated than necessary and has resulted in the decision that a relationship would never work between us. He had become quite angry with me for disagreeing with him and I was angry and frustrated at trying to make myself understood. I haven't been blind to things that have been said prior to that and I suddenly realized I felt oddly familiar with the situation. My brother and ex-husband behave in a similar manner and I knew a guy a few years ago (who had a drinking problem as well) who behaved this way. They had all at one time told me to shut-up and quit nagging them. I always felt I was attempting to communicate and had no intentions of starting anything. When I was on line I thought I would look up some information about people with controlling personalities. I found what I was looking for as well as information about myself. I am codependant. Almost every characteristic listed about a codependant is about me. I thought I would be helping this person by getting information and trying to present it to him that could help him see how he was behaving. Now I know why I wanted to do this and have no plans of following through. I can only hope for him that he realizes what he is doing to himself and others and do something about his problem. I feel relieved that I have identified mine and can start changing today!

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Date: Sunday, July 02, 2000

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I am adding an extreme anti-social verbally abusive to this "picture of a controller" and coming up with zero ideas for a calming the huperactive/proclivity for the culprit! I wonder what are some of the best choices for self defense against the extreme kind of verbal abuse? Also what line is drawn when such assaulting statements are made out-of-the-blue at odd moments and directly after "being sooo kind" for 5 minutes to the next(even after lovemaking?)

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Date: Tuesday, August 22, 2000

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Dear Dr. Irene, Amen! Everything you wrote has hit the nail on the head. I am in the process of working on empowering myself. I've been visiting your site every day and reading everything I can. Thank you for this site and for all the people that have posted here. Everyone I know thinks I am a strong independent woman. Only a few know that I have set myself up as a victim of verbal abuse. I'm too embarrassed to let anyone know. I have been in this relationship for 8 years. (Way too long). I know being a victim and saver goes back to my childhood. I was always trying to save and be loved by my abusive mother. I am so grateful that I have people to learn from and share with now. Your site! I want to learn to love myself enough so I won't let myself be involved in an abusive relationship ever again.And get out of this one! Thank you, Nicole

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Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2000

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Date: Friday, September 22, 2000

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Dr. Irene,

I would like to thank you, as I see many have also, for this site and just like many victims/abusers came to this by chance. I have been reading and replying on the message board for a few weeks now. It is comforting, and yet sad at the same time, that there are so many victims out there. For this means that there is just as many abusers.

So many stories sound too familiar it is almost errie. I sometime wonder if my boyfriend has clones or living other lives. Obliviously I am not the only one. I read this observation several times and you couldn't have nailed it closer if you tried. I would like to add to your observation if I may. I find that not only do I not respond in the "proper" manner when recieving ANYTHING from my abusive partner, but it is expected to always, and I do mean always, to return my gratitude. His idea of gratitude it usually matters of the heart. He truly expects that I owe him either love, passion and even sexual favors. I have quite often felt that I was being treated as if I were a whore, only she (or he) is probably getting paid much differently than I. For instance, I needed $20 to pay for a weekly womens group I attend. As I was walking out the door I asked (not demanded) for money - I was running late. He paused and then looked at me and replied "So what are you going to give to me?" I know this may not sound like a big deal, I have a lifetime of examples to share if you like. Sex has turned into a barter. I often give in just so the badgering and abuse will stop. My point is that in his eyes I am never gratefull enough, nor do I respond properly (his way - which varies) and half the time admittedly expects and deserves something, anything, in return. He thinks that I am "ate up" because I get true enjoyment from giving to others and helping people out. How in the world, knowing that I can not fix him, do I lead the water to the horse so he'll take a drink. I'm rambling. Bet that never happens here!! I am getting closer and closer to actually telling my story now that I've gained some trust in some of the readers and worked up the courage. I would be grateful for any advise. I came to the abusers site instead of the victims for this purpose. If a person has never been an abuser, how can they know how THEY feel. I am not in any way, shape or form giving justification for my abuser. Since I have decided to admit the problem instead of ingoring it I have found that things are getting worse. He doesn't like it when I stand my ground - and that's what I am doing. I know it will be a long road traveled, but I need to know that I have done all I could. I wouldn't want anyone to turn their back on me if there were a problem (perhaps their awareness is cloudy) and any one person is capable of learning. It took a long time to master his trade, what's to say that he can be re-trained. I just don't know how to approach this effectively (I remind him constantly) and help me, not make him, see what an ugly, disrepectful little man he is. Is there any abusers that might be able to offer a poor and frustrated woman advise. I really don't want to leave, and I don't want to not love him anymore. I have a big and compassionate heart; however, I am finding that instead of my positive qualities affecting him (these has always been strong ones) his negativity is seeping into me. It must be a nightmare always seeing the worst and finding the negative in life. What can I as the victim do or say to not lead, but steer him in a more positive and healthy direction? Thanks all for letting me vent. I will post my story soon and hope that I recieve the advice and support as many others have appreciated.

jenn

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Date: Thursday, October 12, 2000

S1

Hello. Thank you. Dr. Irene and everyone. This site has opened my eyes to my codependency/"victim" status, coupled with a need to control my "abuser." I was shamed at how SOME of my behaviors were abusive. I would say I was 15 percent abusive, 85 percent abused. I'm still trying to figure it all out, even though I left my boyfriend/father of my kid one month ago. As part of my own therapy, I wrote the following few (actually several) paragraphs on my take on what my abuser thought. It was very therapeutic to write and I thought I would share it. I got the idea to do it from someone else's post -- so thank you!

I should avoid emotional closeness, because it leaves me vulnerable and open to hurt. I will adopt an attitude of aloofness and indifference to keep my partner from getting a piece of me. Besides, if I let my partner get into my head, I will be under her rule and will be smothered. I will lose myself. To prevent this, I will subconsciously and consciously distance myself from my partner to keep her from overtaking me, while giving her fleeting moments of tenderness to keep her near me.

Here's how I'll go about it.

I will put off her requests for closeness, for talks and for time alone together. I will interrupt her and dismiss her opinions. I will show little interest when she wants to share an insight or a story from her day, and I will not share mine. When she hears me share something with someone else and asks "Why didn't you tell me that?" I will say "I didn't think you'd be interested" or "I forgot." I will scoff at her interests as well as her choices and habits. Also, I will make sure I don't miss a chance to point out - with a tone of superiority and "rightness"-- how opposite or different her choices and habits are from mine. This helps prove that any attempts at "working" on our relationship will likely fail, since we are so different and thereby gives me more reason to distance myself.

I will spend my time at home on house projects, watching TV, reading magazines or playing with the kids - anything and everything to leave no time for us to have a private moment. I will stay up each night later than her to avoid any closeness when we go to bed, then tell her she needs too much sleep. If I want to have sex, I will wake her from her sleep and began touching her, knowing she'll respond because I've minimized affection and she's craving any intimacy I'll offer. When I am not at home avoiding her, I will pursue activities outside the home and not include her of "forget" to tell her about my activities until the day of the event, thereby leaving little possibility that she can attend with me.

To keep her within arm's reach, I will occasionally throw out a "we should do X…" I may even really mean to do something with her, but I won't ever make it a priority so that other "things" I have to do will also come first.. I will leave my schedule open to attend whatever event I want, or go out with friends, but I will raise a fuss when she does the same. After all, she always checks with me before she does anything, so if she doesn't check, she must be punishing me, and I will call her on it.

If she asks that we have a "talk," I will put on my game face of mild irritation at her demand that I share. I will let her run the talk, not offering much input and not validating her opinions. If she pushes ANY buttons or requests any changes in my behavior, I will unleash my rage and feel it is my entitlement to cut her, criticize, accuse her of "riding" me and then leave the room or the house, so that she can't continue "talking" to me. Her "talking" is just a cover to get a chance to bitch at me anyway. When she sets up a session with a counselor, I will go so that no one can place blame on me for not going. Then I will tell the counselor that the reasons we have problems is because we are "very different people so we can't communicate with each other."

Once in a while, I will throw her a crumb and share a thought or a hug with her. Or, at the spur of the moment, I will decide -- without asking her first -- to take her out to dinner so that she can't say to her friends or my family "He NEVER spends time alone with me." I will subvert any attempts from her to talk about us spending more time together during these rare occasions when I do spend a night with her.

I will show disgust at her lack of confidence and insecurities. Then I will bring up her tender spots (insecurities) whenever it helps me gain the upper hand or control in an uncomfortable situation. That way, the focus of whatever comes up is shifted away from me and on to her unreasonable insecurities.

When she reacts to any of this with anger or other high emotions (yelling, getting hysterical, crying, bawling, or walks around joyless and bitter), I will offer very little comfort, concern, reassurance or attention. After all, she is trying to punish me with all her hysterical and depressing emotions, and I don't need the hassle.

Her anger and emotional reactions provide "good reasons" to keep distancing myself from such an intentionally hurtful person. I will make sure I tell my friends and family that her only moods are depressed, hysterical, joyless and bitter, and nothing I do is ever enough for her. That way I can make an ironclad case that proves to everyone, including myself, that is her fault when she leaves me. -DJ

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Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

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Ok, I'm with you so far. Any tips on finding that "hurt child inside" and figuring out what the hurt was?

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Date: Friday, November 10, 2000

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My husband acts like child when things don't go is way. He gets angry if he tells you do something and you don't do right then. Yesterday he was involved in and accident No one was hurt, but I know it was scary. He was in a Tractor Trailer and a car spun out in front of him and he had no choice but to hit her. He was okay and everyone in the accident wasn't hurt. Anyway when he got thru he called me and told me that he would be at the lot to come pick him up. I was 15 minutes late picking him up and he cussed me out for I tried not to say anything Cause I knew he was so upset, But he said terrible things to me, Told me everytime He needed me I wasn't there. This happens all the time, everytime something happens to him everyone suppose to drop everything. I can be working on our books and stuff and if he needs me I have to stop whatever I'm doing and do it. You can't say I'll do it when I'm thru with this, or he'll make you feel so bad. I know I should get out but, I have 2 children and I'm afraid I can't support them on my own.

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Date: Thursday, November 30, 2000

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Date: Saturday, December 02, 2000

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I've only been married for a little over a year but have known something is very wrong with my marriage for quite a while. My husband has "changed". He has gone from the wonderful, perfect man for me - saying and doing all the right things, making me feel so special- to a man who makes condescending and hurtfull comments to me. Sometimes in front of others. He's recently done it in front of his parents, and my mother. Last year he was condescending to me in front of a co-worker who said to me the next day at work that it hurt her very much to see someone she cares about being spoken to like that. It's so embarrasing. I've tried to talk to him but I feel like I need to read off of a script in order to say something without being snapped at or blamed. I've been snapped at for things as little as filling the cats water dish too high and leaving the outside light off when he wasn't home yet. Sometimes when I call his name he'll snap at me just for calling him because he's busy watching a tv show or playing a computer game. I have to walk on eggshells. He always has to be right. He seems to want to even control what I do; ie- I was reading a newsletter the other day and he repeatedly told me to read the middle section of the letter and seemed to become slightly annoyed when I continued to read the front of the letter. I told him he didn't have to keep telling me to read the middle section, I would get to it when I was done reading what I wanted on the front. He understood that but so many other times a simple encounter like that one ends up with him not speaking to me. Recently I asked him why he was so condescending to me and he said because I made him have to be. When I asked why, he stated it was because when he had asked a simple question and I gave an incorrect answer.

I'm very aware of this problem and now. I spoke with his mom about it to see if he was like this before we got married or if it was something I may have actually caused. She said his father is like that and he got that behaviour from him. She said I shouldn't put up with it the way she did. She said she didn't handle it right. She's been married over 30 years now. Thank you for your web site. It gave me some comfort to read about other people's stories. I most appreciated the checklist to see if you are in a verbally abusive relationship. There is no physical abuse but I was able to say "yes" to almost every one of your questions. I really don't know what to do about this horrible problem because I love my husband, but I just turned 30. I'm still young and don't want to waste my life fighting for respect. I can't even have children with this person because I'm afraid as they grow up they'll treat me the way he does. I don't think I could stand having my own children treat my so disrespecfully. My husband doesn't think he has a problem. He says I've lost my sense of humor and can't take a joke anymore. I don't know what to do.

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Date: Monday, December 18, 2000

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I have been re-reading the posts. My husband fits the controlling caregiver to a 't'. The caregiver part is good. The controlling is bad. So the dilemma is great. This type of person makes you feel guilty if you respond to his caregiving in a manner he is not expecting. And the guilt is overwhelming at times because it feels as if he is trying so hard yet I feel manipulated and controlled by the care and the 'love' (??) that he tries to bestow on me. It diminishes me as a person because I feel like maybe I am the one with the problem if I cannot be 'happy' with this perfect man. He bowled me over in our dating days. I really did believe that he was all I could ever ask for. The problem came when I did ask for anything. If it was not on his pre-planned agenda, then I couldn't possibly want it. After all- he knows what's best for him, for me, for our family. And all the while, I had this nagging doubt. Did he really love me? or does he love the validation he gets from doing things FOR me. I cannot ask him to do something. He doesn't do it, but if I make him think it was his idea all along, he will come on like gangbusters. So I don't really think I have a partner, but a caretaker. So I guess in the end, the caretaker part is not all that good either! - Jean

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Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001

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Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001

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Date: Friday, January 19, 2001

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Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

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This situation of overgiving--and not being satisfied in return is going on between my husband and his "best friend". This (male) friend gives my husband very expensive gifts for Christmas and his birthday, has taken him (and paid for it all) on vacations (just the two of them)to Puerto Rico and the like. This friend will come and stay with us for a week or more at a time, completely unannounced, and expects for this to be okay, since he does so much for "us". My husband won't talk to him about how manipulative he is because he feels he owes this friend something. The more I have learned about this friendship (started about 6 years before I met my husband), the more I realize this guy never was his friend. He was in love with my husband, who didn't reciprocate the feeling, and to win over his "friendship", he began doing really, truly outrageous things for him that I wouldn't do without asking (like sending out college applications for my husband,without asking or being asked. There are many, many more things happening here--including that this man really doesn't like me. He says terrible things about me to my husband, like that I am a bad mother and "white trash", which is uncalled for and completely out of nowhere. Should I insist that something be done here, maybe even talk to the friend myself? What would you do?

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Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001

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Sunshine, you must've been married to my husband. I can't believe how similar our stories are. We are going through the process of divorce after I reached the point of feeling like a doormat. But he is throwing the accusations of being a "controlling whore" back at me. My question is this...where does the "do unto others as you'd like them to do unto you" end and the controlling caretaker begin? I truly enjoyed having him do things for me -- and made sure I expressed my gratitude. I always thought that he didn't have good role models, as he had trouble being romantic, thoughtful and tended toward the self-centered. Only recently did he admit that doing those "little things" (and some big ones) felt like begging to him.

I have been guilty of trying to "fix things/people." I like things to run smoothly (house clean, bills paid, rent in on time) and I was the one to attend to these things. I helped my husband achieve his current professional status, and was happy to do it, thinking he would do the same for me (when my time came he complained that I was too busy/preoccupied/depressed with my own work) though did offer support. I went through our marriage assuming that he was one to look at the big picture, while I attended to details (which he abhores). Only recently did I start to hear that I was controlling, frustrating him to the point of anger, manipulative and untrustworthy. Either I'm completely delusional or I'm none of these things. In fact, I thought we were doing fine.

Any response would be appreciated. I do still love him (feel badly for 'hurting' him, want to fix that too). I am on my own and working on