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11/7 Interactive Board: Is This Abusive?

12/29 Interactive Board: There Goes the Wife...

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Doc@DrIrene.com

Comments for Guy's Pain

Comments for Guy's Pain

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

Alan, Run, not walk to the nearest relationship exit. She has her hubby *and* you. You say that she has "been working on it" (ending her marriage) Truth is, if she was working on it, she would be divorced by now! She is verbally Abusive. As you have read on this site, it will only get worse over time. The likelihood of recovery remote. I congratulate you on realizing your own inappropriate behavior, but doing penance by accepting same from another won't bring you peace either. I wish I had recognized my abuser's ways that early in my relationship. I would have never looked back. I am planning my escape now after 10 years of living h*ll. Keep your head up, there is a better world out there for you. :-)

Dianne

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

Alan - here is the advice that you don't want to hear but that you need to hear. If you want a healthy relationship, then you must look for a healthy partner. This is a married woman who is controlling and manipulating two different men.

I have just been through this with my own husband, who told me that he wanted to be married to me but that he also wanted to be free to love another woman. Talk about control!

You simply cannot change another person - you cannot make them give you what you think they should give you. I am not saying don't ask for what you need, but realize that is all you can do - ask.

You have taken a bold step in posting here - now keep taking care of yourself. Get out and read Codependent No More and really do the exercises. Think of how good it will feel when you are not trying desperately to control a situation that is out of your control.

Loss of a love feels a lot like the grief of death. You want her back, and I wish that my parents were still here. But the difference with death is that you *know* they aren't coming back, so most people can ultimately deal with this. But a "lost love" always leaves that thread of hope - that somehow it will be how it was. The reality is that you can't change her behavior any more than I can make my son be an infant any more, as much as I loved that time we had together.

So take that deep breath, read, be gentle with yourself, and know that you can do it. You can do it. You can.

--A friend in Alaska

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, December 28, 2000

S1

Alan,

I have been married for 2 years now and lets just say it isn't easy. You are not married to this woman, you don't have kids with her. Get out _now_ with what you have learned and move on to the next relationship.

Good luck Lenny

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

I know how much you love her, I know how much it hurts right now, but what I am going to say is probably going to hurt you still more (not intentionally) but I feel that 'it' is over between you. Whatever 'it' was in the first place. You need to let go. She has 'used' you, but she doesn't know that she has. Life is messy, love is even messier, you'll never tidy it up. You win some and lose some. And I hope that one day you'll meet someone who truly wants to build a happy and healthy relationship with you, but Lee is not that person. If she was you would be doing it NOW.

I have been in a very similar (well identical) position to you over the past 3 years. I have been seeing a man who I ADORE and really wanted) to marry. Unfortunately he was still living with someone else... Although by all accounts it was over when our affair started up. We've had loads of 'rows', I have been accused of all sorts of things, I battle to get a word in edgeways, and it usually is "I love you".. Now I too am learning the art of verbal abuse, I fight back with vitriol but that's not who I want to be and Boy doesn't it make things worst. Well to round my story up, yep, my man and his ex have finally parted... the day after we met up and within an hour or so I had been accused of chatting up some other guy, my man stropping around etc. we parted that night rowed on the phone for hours for the next week or so Christmas was cancelled and ruined, he still plays games when we speak and I have to realise one thing... He doesn't NEED me anymore. For the last three years he has I was the only mug to stick around loving him and putting up with his problems; now they (she) has gone he can look forward to his future. Why not with me? you may well ask, that's easy to explain because I have put up with so much S**T from him he has no respect for me. He didn't truly love me, and I have done myself no favors in his eyes in tolerating his bad behaviour and worst still acting out to it. You may well do anything to hear her say that she loves you.. she isn't saying it... you can't make her.. "victims" control too. Wouldn't it be fresher and cleaner and a million times happier to hear someone say that they love you spontaneously? Wouldn't that turn you on?

You'll only let her go when you are ready to. Sometimes it takes ages. She'll have to become crueler and crueler towards you so that you let go. This is how it works, and ironically as she probably still NEEDS you at this moment in time if you suddenly out of the blue announced that you didn't want to see her anymore she'd be all over you like a rash (so be prepared). You'll fall for that instantly BUT it will NOT LAST. So my advice is to slip away quietly (if you can) re-group physiologically and let her go. I am only trying to save you from still further pain. My heart goes out to you as I know how painful this can be. I'm only just starting out again. Be strong. This web-site is really the most informative site about these issues and in easy to understand language, stick with Dr. Irene she has been a life line to me. Don't be harsh on yourself, and finally if you can't let Lee go that's OK too, it is just not your time yet to move on. Hope things work out really well for you and 2001 is fantastic (and for all other readers of this web site).

 B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

He's dating someone who is cheating, Good people do not cheat. Lee is not a good person. Break it off and find someone else. I'm sure her current partner "doesn't understand her" but that is such a tired line. Alan should do what she says and f- off and get on with his own life. He cannot atone for being verbally abusive in his marriage by finding a woman to tyrannize him this time around.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Alan,

I have been involved in an abusive relationship as well. All I can think of is, and I am sorry, is move on. Develop a healthy relationship. To me that means, a woman who is not married, who is not involved and who is willing to discuss feelings.

The best way I learned to stand up for myself was finding and committing to a good therapist.

When you have to tools to find a healthy relationship, then you wont be in misery. I believe that you would do anything for her affections. You have. Now find a woman who will recognize and celebrate that.

Peace,

David

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Alan,

I can understand some of the feelings you have--I dated a married man at the end of my relationship with my husband. It won't do you any good to hang on to her if she's not ready to leave her marriage, and even then, she'll need some time to herself to sort things out (and you probably should, too). What struck me was your comment that you never felt this close to anyone before, and you worried that you never would again. I felt that way with my "other man" (OM for short). But I forced myself to separate from him anyway, knowing he would probably never leave his wife, and knowing I would always be second to her (I couldn't go to parties or any other events with him, and had to wait until she was gone to see him). I found myself waiting by the phone all the time for him to call. Do yourself a big favor--tell her you need some time away from her, and you'll contact her again when you're ready. Give yourself time to learn to love being with yourself. When I did this, I went back to OM later, and the neediness I felt before was gone. Now I realize that there WILL be other men who love me as much or more than he did, and will be able to treat me as I need to be treated. As long as you love yourself enough, that is.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

RUN DON'T WALK. First off affairs are the beginning signs of problems in her marriage. She is responsible for her own actions, you are not. I will not condemn someone who has an affair, but I will say that until she decides to either leave her H or quit cheating and work on her marriage you need to not be involved with her. I think you have some issues that you need to deal with. Why do you value yourself so little that you want someone who abuses you, you deserve to be treated with love and respect. You need to find self love and be happy with yourself before you can truly love another person, this is easily said, but I know it is harder done. I am separated from my H and learning all about who I am and why I deserve to be treated in a loving way. There are some excellent writings on this site and some book for suggested reading. A few I have read myself and would like to suggest to you are P. Evans, The Verbally Abusive relationship, The Dance of the wounded souls, Forgiveness, and Co-Depedent no more. I hope you find the happiness and peace you deserve, as we all do. Best Wishes, Nuts

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Dear Alan,

I'd do anything to hear her say that she loves me... for her to treat me the way she used to. But it feels like that person is gone...and so is the happy and easygoing person that I was when I was with her.>

It sounds like you are doing what a lot of us do, which is give way too much power to another human being. It may be hard and painful to hear this, but perhaps you need to back off, and I mean completely, from Lee. If not for your own emotional well being, then for her. The feeling I get is that this lady, for whatever reason, is wanting to be left alone by you. The fact that she is still with her husband could mean anything, but it remains a fact, nonetheless.

You said that when you met you realized that you both were in similar marriages. Did that mean you were both the abuser in the respective relationships? You also said that she was still trying to work on her marriage. Does that mean working on getting out of it, or working on making it better?

You said you verbally abused your first wife, but that you were sorry and took steps to remedy the situation. What steps? Did you seek help from a professional who was familiar with verbal/emotional abuse? Or was finding Dr. I.'s site the first time you REALLY understood verbal abuse?

Take time for yourself. Read everything you can get your hands on! Realize that you will be that happy and easygoing person...with or without Lee. Work on your own stuff, and let her work on hers.

Best wishes,

Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Dear Alan, I have never been in your situation, but just from reading your post, and visiting this site for many months, I can see you are on the wrong road. She is married, and that alone should be the biggest red flag for you to pay attention to. Whatever is not working in her marriage that is causing her to seek an outside relationship is a moot point. She's married, and that's a fact. On top of that she is verbally and emotionally abusive to you, and my guess is she is the same to her husband. Do you want to end up with someone like that?

You need to take care of yourSelf, and get yourself healthy. You have just come out of a marriage yourself, and my guess is you have a lot to heal from that situation. Why compound that with an abuser? RUN, as fast as you can from this woman. She is controlling, manipulative, and sick. Please don't take what I am about to say as an insult, as it is not meant in that context. But you sound so needy to me, and I for one feel that is a big turnoff in a healthy relationship. On the other hand, this is not a healthy relationship and she is feeding off your neediness, as it gives her power and control over you.

Do what you must to heal yourSelf, read all the material on this site as well as the books, and go to therapy. I PROMISE you, you will find the happiness you are looking for with a woman who will appreciate you once you are in an emotionally healthy place.

Good Luck to you! Cyn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 29, 2000

S1

Alan. This relationship was doomed from the beginning! She is abusive and married, and she is using you! I think you need a reality check! You should be a happy and easy going with or without her! Stop and ask yourself. do you think she will ever get a divorce, and change who she is? If not get out of this relationship. <I know easier said then done>

 

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 30, 2000

S1

Dear Alan,

You should stick with this relationship. I think she enjoys being "desired" by another person and sneaking around behind her husband's back in order to "get even" with him.

I think you enjoy having her abuse and punish you so that you can feel rotten about having failed your marriage and that earlier relationship. By continuing this relationship with an abusive person you can wallow around in all your frustration and awful feelings, thereby paying for your "sins."

You are treating yourself like a dog because that is how you perceive yourself right now. Since you have no self-respect, why should you risk getting well and feeling better by leaving this awful woman? I don't think you are ready.

Please just stay right where you are and make sure you are sufficiently miserable before you decide you have had enough. At that point, when you have finally hit bottom, you may have a remote chance of regaining your self-respect and a new life with healthier people.

 

Sincerely, 501946

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 30, 2000

S1

It sounds like you may have reversed roles with your exwife. If you were verbally abusive to her and she put up with it the way you are putting up with your girlfriend's verbal abuse it sounds like you are playing the other side of the coin since the girlfriend is not available. Was your exwife available? Must have been more so than the girlfriend. And so you were angry with her for being too close. You cannot feel pressured/angry for the girlfriend being too close since she is far away.

I don't know, just what it sounds like to me. The role reversal is what is so striking to me. I do wonder why you and your ex divorced and why you were so angry with her. Sandra

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 31, 2000

S1

Alan,

You have done all the taboos in divorce recovery! You need to allow yourself time to heal from each relationship. That includes examining your part in the demise, and learning how to circumvent that in the future. That takes time. You rushed into a second relationship before you even ended the first, and set yourself up in the path of an avalanche. A lot of what you are feeling now is the delayed reaction to ending your first relationship. If you really want a healthy relationship as you say, you are going to have to get healthy first.

Trust your instincts and listen to your own words: "At this point, she has all the control, and I know my best resort is to stop my own communication with her, to take care of myself and value myself more than what I have." Do you really need anyone else to tell you what to do... you already know! I keep hearing "it's easier said than done", which is simply not true...It's easy to do-Just painful to live through. But I doubt it will be nearly as painful as what you will be leaving yourself open to in the future if you try to maintain this relationship.

The first part of your statement: "At this point, she has all the control", is bull! It should read: "At this point, I'm to weak to stand up for myself". Which is completely understandable under the circumstances. Take some time to regain your strength, examine your own actions, and take care of yourself.

One last thing to consider- She has told you that she wants to "make sure that she has given her marriage the best shot possible." How can she possibly do that and maintain a relationship with you? Somebody is going to get slighted...and guess who that will be?

Debbie

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 31, 2000

S1

This is junk!!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 31, 2000

S1

Alan: My brother, the best, truest, and most loving thing you can do, for both of you, is to walk away. It's simple. As long as you stay, to endure/enjoy the abuse, she has no reason to change, and she suffers no actual consequences for her behavior. Second, you deserve better. There are a million Al-Anon cliches I could spout (most of them true) about the situation, but here's one that comes to mind: "Self-care is the beginning of self-love." Alan, you wouldn't treat a dog the way you allow her to treat you. As long as you continue to be in a position to experience that abuse, your self-esteem, confidence, etc., will continue to be worn away, both by her behavior, and by your own internal dissonance at staying in what you know, objectively, is an incredibly unhealthy, unfair, unjust situation. Bag it, and get yourself to either an Al-Anon or CODA meeting. You need to focus on yourself, and see why you'd be in that kind of miserable situation to begin with. Take care. This is Tex, my pages are here on the site courtesy of Dr. Irene. I've been there and done that, as the saying goes, and I don't have to do it anymore. Neither do you.

 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 31, 2000

S1

Alan: My brother, the best, truest, and most loving thing you can do, for both of you, is to walk away. It's simple. As long as you stay, to endure/enjoy the abuse, she has no reason to change, and she suffers no actual consequences for her behavior. Second, you deserve better. There are a million Al-Anon clichés I could spout (most of them true) about the situation, but here's one that comes to mind: "Self-care is the beginning of self-love." Alan, you wouldn't treat a dog the way you allow her to treat you. As long as you continue to be in a position to experience that abuse, your self-esteem, confidence, etc., will continue to be worn away, both by her behavior, and by your own internal dissonance at staying in what you know, objectively, is an incredibly unhealthy, unfair, unjust situation. Bag it, and get yourself to either an Al-Anon or CODA meeting. You need to focus on yourself, and see why you'd be in that kind of miserable situation to begin with. Take care. This is Tex, my pages are here on the site courtesy of Dr. Irene. I've been there and done that, as the saying goes, and I don't have to do it anymore. Neither do you.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001

S1

Alan,

I've been in and out of relationship for the last 7 years with someone like you describe. It never gets better, only worse. after the last time, I guess I didn't learn enough, so now I am looking at losing my house to her after living together for the last 4 months (my fault, of course).

As others have said, RUN, DON'T WALK!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001

S1

I don't think you will ever regain the feeling of love and closeness you say that you had in the beginning. This reminds me of some of the things that go on in my marriage. I get so confused sometimes and can't even remember what started the arguments and find my self apologizing just to make the peace. Other times I feel guilty for responding in a hostile manner when in reality I am defending myself. I am not talking about striking out but about some real intense arguments. I went to a shrink once and he said that when my wife tries to argue to not buy into it and keep telling myself that I am not going to argue. I tell her that also and that's when she starts to hit below the belt. If you can live without this kind of relationship now is the time to break away. She probably won't leave her husband. Why should she if you keep hanging in there. I dated married women when I was single and they only wanted one thing. You are safe to her and she will get her security from her husband and the sex from you. As long as you know that and enjoy the sex why would you want to marry someone that does that kind of stuff? I say enjoy it for what it is or get out of it.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001

S1

Dear Alan,

This is Dan. I am in exactly the same position as you are. I can't offer you that much advice, except to tell you to hang in there, work on you, and lessen the contact with Lee. I would advise you not to cut her off completely, I would advise you not to make any permanent final decisions about anything right now. You are hurting too much, and are liable to lash out in anger later on. Here's what I do:

Every single time I "want" to talk to my friend (we'll call her Sara) I ask myself:

What, if anything, do I really want to say to her?

Often I realize that I am just looking to start a fight. This is very subtle, these wants of mine, but I have to admit that they are there.

So if these are my intentions, then I simply do not speak to my Sara. Believe me, this has been a slow long learning process for me, and I have had to learn to emotionally give her up, in a sense. I cannot control the future, not one bit of it. I have had to force myself to stop thinking of her, and focus on me. This is very, very hard, but it has to be done. It is the only chance I have at happiness.

Best wishes for the new year, Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001

S1

Alan,

It isn't going to get better, especially not as long as you pursue and she distances. The love and affection and closeness will not come back. She "meant it" at the time, but she was in love with an image in her head. The Jungians say we have a "contrasexual" self in our subconscious (the "Anima" for a man and the "Animus" inside a woman), and when we fall in love it is with someone who, we think, is a reflection of our own Anima or Animus. Now that she knows you as a real person, she knows you aren't a perfect reflection of her masculine side, and she is disillusioned and unhappy, and will take it out on you. If you want to continue having a relationship with her it will have to be you who changes. You have to learn how to respond to abusive people without engaging, without getting into the dance. You can get ideas from the Patricia Evans books, and also from Harriet Lerner's *The Dance of Anger.* Consider the possibility that you are addicted to love and possibly other behaviors/substances and see if a 12 Step Group is helpful for you. Learn to think in terms of what's best for you, what you really need. This relationship is exciting and captivating, but you're already figuring out it isn't good for you.

Everyone in your life is there for a reason, and there to teach you something. Maybe you needed to be with her so you could experience the "flip side" of verbal abuse. It sounds like she's been a really good teacher for you! Maybe it's time to "graduate," or maybe you need more "lessons" from her. Only you can decide.

One thing we can say when someone turns a conversation about their behavior into an attack on us is, "That may be true, but we were discussing what you just said to me." Another technique of acknowledging that you heard something without agreeing with it or "letting it in" to hurt you is to say "you think. . ." For example, "you think I'm selfish." "You think I shouldn't feel hurt."

These people are crazy-makers. They are so good at confusing and frustrating us. They push our buttons. Guess what? They're still your buttons. This is how you find out where you need to work on yourself. What you love or hate about another person is a reflection of you. She's so good at getting you "going" because she is a mirror. You may think you'd be happier if she acted nicer. Probably, over the short run, but you still have those character defects to deal with. I suggest you quit worrying about the relationship and start working on you. She might then change in response (or not) but you will be concentrating on what it is actually possible for you, and not trying to change things you can't change. You want her to love and accept you. Chances are, she's just not capable of doing that. Chances are, she tends to distract herself from her own pain by falling in love with new men, other than her husband. You need to ask yourself if that's OK with you. But you're going to keep getting into verbally abusive relationships until you heal your own wounds and start loving yourself.

Good luck.

Amy

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001

S1

Dear Allen, You'd better run for your life, run for all the good years you have left. While you are living off of hopes and dreams, she is having the best of both worlds. She will always be attached to her Husband in one way or another. She is a talker, and a dreamer and feeding you a line of crap. I too was involved with a married man for 8 yrs. He left her, but we never married or lived together. I caught him several times Going up to her house. He always had an excuse, Trust me, this woman does not have the courage of her convictions and never will. Yours sincerely, Marty

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001

S1

YOU ARE INVOLVED WITH ANOTHER PERSON'S SPOUSE. Indeed, those who commit adultery are in misery! And really, I am not speaking as a religious person, it's just common sense. It's harsh, and that is an unfeeling response to your sincere heartache, but call a spade a spade. She's a nut, and somebody else's nut at that. You are punishing yourself by associating with this person. You must love yourself before you can have a normal relationship with anyone else. You could benefit by individual counseling. Why would you do "anything" for the affection of this awful person? What on earth do you see in HER? You enjoy how YOU FEEL around her sometimes, but it's you and your own feelings, not her, that you are enjoying. Run from this dame as fast as you can.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001

S1

Dear Alan,

Real love does not supposed to hurt. Sounds like you're heavily infatuated with an emotionally and physically unavailable person. This lady is clearly abusive to you. On this site, you'll find info on borderline personality disorder. Your description of the false assumptions, inappropriate rage, walking on eggshells point to that. You have no control over this lady's anger. You will never be able to please her. The only thing you can do is to take care of yourself and set firm boundaries. Concentrate on what you have to do with yourself, to make you a whole person, who is not that vulnerable. I wish you all the best, and please take care of yourself. Nina

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, January 04, 2001

S1

Dear Alan,

I have also been in a similar situation; however, my lover was not verbally or physically abusive. Rather, I would call him emotionally abusive. He would make decisions to terminate his marriage but never follow through with them. Instead, he would move the wife and children to different parts of the country in order help her build a new life on her own. Unfortunately, she kept obsessively calling my house to yell at him about what an awful husband he was. This behavior never stopped, and he never controlled the situation.

These actions made me finally realize that the relationship was extremely unhealthy, and I now realize the lies he told to his wife and me. I finally broke it off, and he now lives in another state, which is the best thing that could have ever happened. I now am pursuing a degree in MIT and plan to finish my MBA. I am currently single and trying to figure out what I want out of life, and through my work and school, I have made some very supportive friends.

My advice is to urge you to break the ties with this woman. She doesn't sound very nice to you, and you don't trust her. I did the same exact thing; I would consistently accuse my lover of cheating, and my gut told me that he may not have been cheating, but he was definitely lying. In addition, if she truly wanted to be with you, she would divorce her husband. Go out and find some new friends. Even if you don't think a relationship will come out of hanging with new people, these people always know other people, and your true love could be one of them.

Good luck!

Kayla

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, January 04, 2001

S1

Alan,

Here's the advice you're not wanting to hear: MOVE ON!. Until she realizes that she has a problem, there is nothing you can do to make the situation better. There is absolutely nothing you can say or do that will make her suddenly change. No matter what you do or say that you think it is what she wants, there will be something else to make her mad.

She has to accept that she is abusive and then really want to change. I mean REALLY REALLY want to change like she's never wanted anything in her life. And even then, there's no guarantee that she will be able to change herself no matter how badly she wants to change.

Trust me, there is someone out there for you that will treat you the way a human being should be treated. All her abuse is going to do to you is run you into the ground. I hate to say this, but I think it would be a waste of your time to keep pursuing a relationship that will do no good for you.

P

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, January 06, 2001

S1

Alan,

I notice that nobody has responded to your post yet. I'll take one guess at the reasons: some of your words mirror my own verbally-abusive husband's words. For example: "I told her that I knew she loved me, but that it was hard to feel secure in our relationship..." My husband said the same, even though we lived in the same house. I could not fill the bottomless pit of his need for reassurance.

Example: "I have tried to do everything to make her happy." My husband's words, too. And yet, "trying" has only resulted in unfulfilled promises and good intentions. His behavior targeting *my* happiness has generally had very little to do with *me*, but rather with what his first wife wanted, what he figured I *should* have wanted, or what *he* wanted.

Example: "She says she doesn't want to hear excuses." Same here. My husband always had an excuse for his misbehaviour. After a while, a pattern becomes evident --- that the road to hell is paved with good intentions and excuses. Behavior is what counts.

Example: "She says she still loves me, but only when I ask her or volunteer that first." Gee, Alan, you sure you aren't my soon-to-be-ex? My husband's behavior gradually battered away any feelings of love I once had for him. Perhaps if he weren't so insistent on how often I told him I loved him, unsolicited. Perhaps if he weren't so unpredictable and demanding and abusive, I might have said "I love you" more often. Perhaps if those words didn't feel like such an emotional trap...

Example: "I NEVER felt so close to another human being in my life and I'm so afraid to lose that...and also that I won't feel that way again." My husband's words following his last abusive tantrum and his leaving our home. This seems to be the golden afterglow of nostalgia. He remembers how "wonderful and loving" things were. I remember being terrified and bullied. He remembers how "close" we were. I remember spending hours, days, weeks, months and years expending emotional energy to placate him --- all to ensure my own safety from his explosive temper.

Final example: "I would do anything..." Sorry, but this sounds like the same load of crap my own soon-to-be-ex has been spouting. Truth is, if you would do anything, then you would have DONE anything, and obviously you didn't. So drop the "I'm-such-a-nice-guy-who's-merely-controlled-by-unrequited-love" act, please. Quit acting it out for the world, and most importantly, quit fooling yourself.

Alan, if you are in misery now, then help yourself. Stop yourself from focusing on her and your relationship, and focus on YOU. Get therapeutic help. Dig deep for some insight into your own behavior and attitudes. Learn to take responsibility for your behavior and don't allow yourself to make excuses. Let go, Alan. Let go of what she does or did or didn't do. Focus on what YOU do. That is what counts. And that is the only path to any kind of happiness for you, with or without her. -Cybervoice

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, January 06, 2001

S1

Hey Alan sounds like your in a very hard situation and one I can relate to even having a child in the middle-thinking I was to blame for him getting hurt when she was so unreasonable like it sounds in your situation with Lee. I read a book by Scott Wetzler Living with the Passive Aggressive Man and just applied it to a women. This helped me out a lot but it just seems you have to accept her as she is-passive aggressive-she wont change and the only way it seems to have a chance to see if she would change is to leave her. If it doesn't find someone else-who would offer you more because she clearly isn't going to be reasonable no matter what you do or say. That is just the way they (passive aggressive people) think. Don't fall for her blame etc.-you sound like your rationally trying to work it out while she is being so closed up and not doing anything at all. Take that for what it is-she doesn't want to work on the relationship through no fault of your own but with her own issues that have nothing to do with you at all. Another Wetzel book Who is to blame is good and talks about the passive aggressive issue. Good luck.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001

S1

Alan stop seeing a married woman. start setting Healthy boundaries with your self and her. You are not a cause of her anger she is responsible for her feelings, as we all are for our feelings. Chances are this is just a rebound affair since it happened while you were going through divorce or just after your divorce. Give your self some time to heal and recover before starting in another relationship. Read a book titled "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. Don’t take on the responsibly of her feelings. Find a free Woman to have a relationship with, and Good luck

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001

S1

Alan stop seeing a married woman. start setting Healthy boundaries with your self and her. You are not a cause of her anger she is responsible for her feelings, as we all are for our feelings. Chances are this is just a rebound affair since it happened while you were going through divorce or just after your divorce. Give your self some time to heal and recover before starting in another relationship. Read a book titled "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. Don’t take on the responsibly of her feelings. Find a free Woman to have a relationship with, and Good luck

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001

S1

You jumped from the fire into the frying pan. It's time to cool it and take the necessary time to explore who you are. If you would do anything for her affection, you may very well find yourself jumping off a building one day without realizing exactly why until your pathetic little carcass is Jell-O on the pavement.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001

S1

Alan, I very much empathize with you. Being a female who has been in similar situations with men, I know how frustrating it is to hope that someone will change their ways so you can be more happy with them. Unfortunately, and I'm sure you're aware of this, the only person you can change is yourself. What if you stop accepting the blaming, angry, controlling words from "Lee?" What if you stand up for your feelings, distance yourself from her, and pursue other interests? My guess is that either she will protest, and try to get you back to the reactive mode, or she will be so uncomfortable with your new assertive, confident self that she will back off altogether. Or she may change decide to change her own situation. As far as the trust factor, technically you are involved with an unavailable woman. Maybe you need to work on being able to trust yourself before trusting someone else. No matter the outcome, by distancing yourself and focusing more on resolving your own issues and needs, I believe you'll eventually and gradually get out of the frustrating cycle that you're in. Good luck to you....

 B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Get the book called "Facing Love Addiction" by Pia Mellody, I think you will connect with it in the first 30 pages. It helped me realize that I had a lot to work on with myself. Check it out, you won't be disappointed.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

THIS IS ALAN! Thank you all for your posts! I checked back here regularly for a few days after my initial post and didn't see any there. Now today (1/10) I read a whole boat-load! And I read every single one. Interesting that the last post was from somebody recommending the Pia Mellody book (it arrived LAST week!)

I have greatly benefited from the time I took to reflect on my post, and from reading your responses. I know that the key is taking care of myself, and I'm doing my best to focus on that now. I know that I deserve far better than what this woman has given me, and that she is most likely unable, but also unwilling at this point to want to meet my needs. I want to be healthy first, and then pursue a relationship later. I know that I have a LOT to offer a woman...I just need to get my head screwed on straight first.

Thank you again to EVERYONE who posted. :) I will read them over again for inspiration.

Alan

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Honor yourself. Trust your intuition.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear Alan,

Aside from all of the nasty emotional stuff, for which you've already received some great support and advice... S/he who marries their extra-marital lover creates a vacancy to be filled later...

I wish you the best, share that great guy that you liked so much with yourself. He's in there, he is not gone! Although, it feels a little guilty when you find him sometimes, doesn't it?

Best to you...

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, January 12, 2001

S1

Alan,

You're right, it does sound like the typical abuser/codependent relationship. It also sounds like you know what you need to do to take care of yourself.

I spent 4 1/2 years hoping he would change, feeling that if I could just get my part right that things would get better and that I was responsible for his behavior. I searched here and many places for answers and heard all the advice, but I wasn't going to leave until I was ready to leave. Until I had enough, and loved myself enough, to let go.

After I left, I realized I had a lot of healing to do. I did EMDR therapy which was wonderful and helped me move forward in leaps! I still have to work on my own issues daily, but now I can trust myself to make healthy choices. I still miss things about our relationship, that I may never find with anyone else. Now I am in a relationship with a wonderful and healthy man. It isn't at all like the abusive relationship - I am truly happy and at peace. I feel loved and supported in words and actions. I feel I am allowed to be myself and have my feelings without criticism. What a blessing!!

Take care of you,

Suzanne

 

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 16, 2001

S1

Alan, get away from her and stay away!! It's almost like she is a very addictive drug that you cannot get enough of, yet which will harm you irreparably if you don't get away from it. I was married to a woman for 17 years who fits the description you gave. I tried the entire time to make it work, to please her, etc. It didn't work, but mostly because (1) I didn't know what I was dealing with and (2) she never acknowledged that she had a problem at all. It took me a long time to realize that the person I had always thought she was was just one side of her, and she just didn't show that side often enough to keep the relationship alive for me.

Paul

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 17, 2001


I'm leaving these next 2 posts in, after cleaning up the language, to illustrate how a very very angry, abusive person thinks. This is sad stuff folks. Check out the attitude:

S1

hey alan -- wake up - the b%&ch has her cake and eatin' it too -- she's got you tied up in a little ball and rolls you around when she wants too--CONTROL--that's her game--i bet every time she gets pissed and wants her way she starts her little game and you turn into a little baby crying and sucking her a%^--she's got you where she wants your a%$--i bet she s%$#$%s her man right before she comes to see you just so she can shove his a%# in your face too--and alan you have got to learn to like yourself--cause when you do, you won't be having ANY women in your life like her--you CAN like yourself without turning into MR. HYDE. I'LL MAKE YOU A BET--BUT YOU WILL BE THE ONLY ONE THAT KNOWS THE TRUE OUTCOME--SO BE TRUE TO YOURSELF----SO HERE GOES - YOU MUST BE VIGILANTE AND STAND YOUR GROUND---JUST TURN AROUND AND WALK AWAY AND KEEP WALKING-DON'T CALL HER DON'T RETURN HER CALLS DON'T DO ANYTHING THAT INVOLVES HER-AND ABOVE ALL DON'T EVEN RAISE YOUR VOICE A FRACTION-EVERY THING MATTER-A-FACTLY-BE PATIENT-THIS WON'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT-BUT EVENTUALLY S%$T WILL HAPPEN---AND WHEN IT DOES YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT 180 REALLY MEANS-THIS GIRL I USED TO BE WITH USED TO JUST PISS ME OFF WITH HER ANTICS--- SO I STARTED TO DO THIS "THING" ----- WHEN SHE WOULD START SOMETHING, I WOULD SORTA LEAN TO ONE SIDE AND FOCUS MY SIGHT ON SOMETHING (NOTHING REALLY) WAY BEYOND AND BEHIND HER, LO AND BEHOLD WHEN SHE WOULD TURN AROUND TO SEE WHAT I WAS "LOOKING" AT, THAT'S WHEN I WOULD TURN AROUND MYSELF AND TAKE OFF WALKING AWAY, SO WHEN "SHE" WOULD TURN BACK AROUND THE "MAN" WAS "GONE"--SHE FINALLY GOT THE MESSAGE--WHEN YOU START SH^%$$WN' ON ME I WILL TURN AROUND AND REMOVE MYSELF FROM THE SITUATION--REFUSE TO BE A PARTICIPANT -- OH BY THE WAY NOT ONE SECOND OF YELLIN' AND SCREAMING NO FIGHTING -- NOTHING--SHE FOUND OUT THAT I LIKE MYSELF TOO MUCH AND I DON'T PUT UP WITH SHIT. REFUSE TO BATTLE WITH WOMEN YOU WILL STILL LOSE WHEN YOU WIN--GO FIGURE--AND BY THE WAY I AM A SINGLE PARENT-THEY ARE GROWN WITH THEIR OWN-I RAISED THEM FROM DIAPERS, WELL 2 OF THEM WERE STILL IN DIAPERS (TWINS) BEAUTIFUL KIDS RESPONSIBLE AND THEY ALL HAVE NEW CARS, SOMETHING I'VE NEVER HAD-PROBABLY CAUSE I LIKE CLASSICS-ANYWAY--BEST ADVICE DON'T FIGHT, ARGUE, YELL, SCREAM, OR WHATEVER WITH WOMEN IN ANY NEGATIVE WAY YOU (MAN) WILL ALWAYS LOSE---AND REFUSE TO ABUSE!! I don't think you can help but abuse... SOMETIMES I GET THESE WEIRD THOUGHTS THAT "DO THESE WOMEN WANT (OR LIKE) TO GET INTO THESE SITUATIONS!??" THEN I JUST SWITCH THOUGHTS TO SOMETHING ELSE AND QUIT WASTING TIME ON SOMETHING THAT DOES JUST THAT "WASTE VALUABLE TIME"--SO ALAN HERE I AM-----AND NOW THERE I GO --GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 17, 2001

S1

AND BY THE WAY ALAN -- ME AGAIN -- HERE'S SOME VERY IMPORTANT THINGS THAT I PRACTICE INVOLVING WOMEN THAT REAP REWARDS -------- DON'T EVER GO INTO THEIR PURSE FOR ANYTHING FOR ANY REASON EVEN IF THEY SAY SO, IF THEY ASK YOU TO GET THEM SOMETHING OUT OF IT, JUST TAKE THE PURSE TO THEM--------STAY OUT OF THEIR DRAWERS------DON'T EVER EVER PISS ON THE TOILET SEAT AND LEAVE IT------IF YOU HAVE TO COP TO SOMETHING PAY "YOUR" DUES AND NOT EVERYBODY ELSE'S TOO, IF YOU HAVE TO APOLOGIZE FOR SOMETHING THEN APOLOGIZE ONCE, TWICE AT THE MOST, IF YOU CONTINUE TO DO SO, THEN YOU WILL SOON FIND YOURSELF A PRISONER TO HER WHIMS, JUST LET HER COOL AWHILE AND LEAVE HER TO HERSELF, SHE WILL DECIDE WHEN SHE'S COOLED OFF, NOT YOU-------AND LET HER MAKE HER OWN DECISIONS, YOU WILL LIKE HER MORE-------WELL, MORE LATER MAYBE, WHEN I REMEMBER MORE, THESE ARE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. LATER, DEAN UNLESS SOMEONE POSTED RIGHT AFTER MY FIRST POST, THE LAST POST, OR THE POST RIGHT BEFORE THIS POST IS MY POST ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW DOES THAT GRAB YOU!!?? PS.....HERE'S A POEM THAT I THREW AT SOME FRIENDS ONE NIGHT AND THEY WENT SLACK-JAWED--THAT MEANS THEY REALLY LIKED IT, AND ASKED WHERE I GOT IT, SAID IN A BOX OF HONEYNUT CHERRIOS---JUST KIDDING---I TOLD THEM I DIDN'T GET IT, THAT "I" JUST GAVE IT!!!!!!! WHEN I GIVE-IT'S GIVEN WHEN I LOAN-IT'S NOT WHEN I'M GIVEN-WE'RE STILL EVEN WHEN I BORROW-WE'RE NOT I GIVE AND GIVE WHATEVER I GOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOW DO YOU LIKE IT??????? CHEVYPUMAN7096@AOL.COM CHEVYPUMAN7096@HOTMAIL.COM

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, January 18, 2001

S1

Alan, I've read details about your relationship with Lee. The paragraph before the last paragraph that says about your wife and then u said that Lee does none of that. I think you showed the importance of apology and acceptance which I understand but I think you are just looking at Lee the way you would want her be for you . That wouldn't be her if she would do this for you not for herself. She would probably hate herself if she would do for you because I think she wouldn't feel being herself.. as not being in "Control". I admit that my boyfriend of about 15 yrs or so wouldn't literally apologize to me for about anything. He has not even sat down to console my feelings . In over time, it has made me feel more like I don't have feelings . However, my mind keeps telling me that that I do have feelings and they are true. I don't know how u feel about your feelings but I notice that you want someone like myself or anyone to help you responding u with feedback. I want you to know that your feelings are there enough for you to believe whatever u said to Lee or even to your first wife or to anyone else that you have always been heard!! Whether your statement to the person is justified or not, its been heard. I have sometimes felt like a jerk when talking to my family or friends about something then later realized more about the way I talked to them... sounded myself like I need opinions of theirs or seeing if its ok in a way.. Because I know that I have feelings but are they heard? YES.. anyway.. pls keep in mind that when you talk to someone.. try to feel heard even though if you have doubts.. The reason why I'm telling you this is because I don't want anyone to think that you are easy to control .by seeing you having doubts.. So, to stand up for yourself as you want .. don't let the listeners feel responsible to answer you or to share that you expect without saying so.. If u want to express, vent out feelings, continue this email to people like us or someone you really trust. It'd probably be a good start if u want to be strong and move beyond.. Keep in touch Pat

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, January 19, 2001

S1

Dear Alan,

The only thing I can say is, I totally relate to your entire letter and run like hell, the person you loved does not exist!

Diane

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, January 21, 2001

S1

 

My relationship with this man started 31/2 years ago. My father had passed two years earlier which I was still dealing with -- maybe loneliness. I met this guy at work. I did not think much of him at first, but he was so nice. As time went on, we started seeing each other on a regular basis. Six months later, he moved in with me.

It was strange, because here I was living with this person, but yet I still felt so lonely. It was like he would talk and talk, I could not get in a word, but when I finally did, it was never heard. I cried all the time, but I was not quite sure why.

Over the past year, things got really bad. Last February, he went on a vacation by himself, as he had a free plane ticket, and I could not get out of work. He called to inform me that he was going to the beach with another woman. I told him that I did not appreciate that, and he still kept doing things with her. When he got home and got his picture's developed, there she was in a bikini. I got over it and he tore the picture's up. Then about 7 months later he had the pictures reprinted. I told him that it was nothing about the woman, but if he knew that it hurt my feelings, why would he do that.

I started pulling away and not wanting to do things with him, which made him furious. He said that I was like his mother, which I had to be because he acted like he was 12. He could never make a decision on his own. He never liked to learn anything new. I was always "on his case", according to him. He let me know that I ruined 3 of his Christmas's, and all of the vacations that we took together. For a while, I thought I was sick, all I did was work, then come home and go right to bed, I felt so drained all the time. My self esteem had really dropped.

In December, I had a friend vesting from out of town. One Sunday morning, I took her to the airport, when I returned, he had left me a note that he could not take the fighting anymore and that he was moving out. The first two weeks, I was devastated, I went to see him everyday at work. One day he was so mean to me, that I told myself, I will never go see him again. Then, he started coming to see me. He said he wants to be friends. We did a couple of movies together, etc... I still found that he was not listening. He never took all his stuff, and when I move it or pack it, he has something to say about that. He did take some stuff the other day, but when he got back to he Brothers and Dad's house (where he is staying), he realized that some pictures we had taken were not with his stuff. He called me with a raised tone of voice, to let me know that I was taking something that was his. I said you can make copies if you wish. He would not let the topic die for 20 minutes.

The next day at work, I brought him all the pictures that he was in, plus the little plastic things they were in, which he had requested. He called me a B----, and a H---, for no reason. I have appeased him in everyway possible and that's what I get. I told him that he needs to get some help.

He still has stuff here, he has not called and I don't want to call. Do you think he will just show up one day, or leave the stuff here as a foot in the door?

I'm much better, but my feelings change, some days are good, others are not so good. I keep relaying everything in my head, trying to figure out why. Is it me? Why do I feel guilty?

Delany

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, January 22, 2001

S1

Alan, I just want to say I think I know exactly how you feel. I've been in a relationship for over two years. I love the man I with more than any thing but Im comming to realize he is not the same guy i fell in live with. I am holing on with all ive got thinking the man i met will one day come back. we have been trying to save our relationship for months now and we just continue to hurt one another. he has caused me more pain than I thought i could ever handle. The word suicide crosses my mind to often. I try and think of any thing i can do to make him love and respect me the way he once did. I think that things have gotten out of control and cannot be fixed but i still try. I am not one to give up with out a fight and its very scary to feel the fight draining out of me and that im not winning. I pray that we will work every thing out and share the unconditional love we once felt but is seems hope less. I am at a loss. i feel that i may be in denial to the fact that love was list long ago i believe it can be found again but every day I'm proved wrong.   i just want you to know that someone feels the same and i think that in the near future i will let go. it hurts me so much to think of loosing him but i think letting him go will hurt less that being abused every day.

 

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, January 27, 2001

S1

This is Alan again. Thank you all once again for your posts. I have returned to them several times, and again tonight as I was reeling from missing her this evening. I have been doing better lately...enjoying times with friends and becoming more productive at work and with a class I'm taking. It has been nice to get her off of my mind and to focus on the task of getting my life together. Tonight I'm just feeling weak and in a lot of pain and needed to reread your posts which are very inspiring and wise.

I can't thank you enough for all of your support and sharing your own stories. I KNOW I am doing the right thing. I want so much to be with a healthy partner...it's just difficult to let go when you love someone as much I did. At least I'm on the right track now. Time will heal me, and I will be better equipped in my future relationships as a result of all I've learned. I know I have a LOT to offer a woman...I need to get in touch with those things and take care of myself and love myself first, though. I am so good at beating myself up over little things (perfectionistic qualities). I'm so sick of it!!! Time to move on! :)

Thanks again, everyone. I appreciate it more than you know.

Alan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, January 28, 2001

S1

Alan, Time to move on, if she has not left the marriage by now she probably wont! We only have but one life to live. And ur wasting urs by staying in a relationship with a married women. Not to mention ur doing it long distance. I to am in an abusive relationship. But mine is more covert, and he is passive aggressive. You can't change her! But I have changed my self. And seems that he is following suit. I stopped letting him get away with the things he did to destroy my self esteem, my sprit. You have to do that also!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 31, 2001

S1

Alan,

How sad to hear that you don't feel deserving of someone who has the strength and consideration to work on a relationship. First, Lee is NOT available; realize that. Although you two may have thought you were soul mates, you aren't. Soul mates are available at the same time, emotionally and without ties to another. Second, you have let her steal your confidence; you know what you are looking for, but you let another control you. She has squelched your esteem and you feel helpless. You are able to apologize for wrongful words or mistaken actions, but Lee is not. Is she REALLY your soul mate? It sounds as though you're caught up in a fantasy of what was in the beginning. Everyone puts their best foot forward in the beginning but eventually their true self shines through. Lee's true self is inconsiderate, selfish, arrogant, and so on. I'm not saying she is a bad person, but she has a lot of issues she is not ready to face. She may get angry with you because you represent change...change in her marital status, something she's not obviously not willing to do, at least not now. The age-old cliché "if you love someone let them go, if it's meant to be they'll return." Find your inner strength to face your fear of losing her...she will either leave her partner and return to you, or she won't. Either direction, you will have her answer, even if she doesn't verbally tell you, her actions will. Fear is the worst fear of all, but we'll never know unless we face it. I wish you peace, love, happiness and harmony with your soul.

Linda

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Alan:

You are both sharing a deceitful relationship. Neither of you are trustworthy and therefore do not trust each other. Follow the rules of honesty and integrity, and you will know that the right thing to do is not communicate with Lee until she has made the decision to leave her husband. That is the only way for you to move forward, and even then, I would do so with caution.

N.A.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

If a thousand other people haven't already told him this, Alan needs to "get out of the pot before it boils." When there is no acknowledgement and no responsibility for one's behavior, they are to be avoided. First of all, she is married--so she is first of all avoiding that responsibility. That should be Alan's FIRST RED FLAG. The SECOND is the anger, which he is fortunate to be able to recognize. Many of us naively put up with it until it was late and some are trapped in a very bad situation. Red flags all over the place mean STOP!!! Those of us who didn't recognize the red flags for what they were have paid for that in years of heartache trying to understand how "the nicest person in the world" could treat us so hatefully in their Jekyl/Hyde personality. Alan should RUN and not stop until he's free of this situation. Strength will return after he's able to be thankful for what he got out of. If he's a Christian, he should ask God to help him through these trials and give him wisdom to overcome them. It will happen.

 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Alan, I'm going through the same thing! I wish I knew how to contact you. I'm a lot younger than you but after reading what you wrote, it felt like you wrote a story about me. Everything will be ok.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Hello, to the previous poster. Feel free to email me at aladevo@yahoo.com. Thanks for your post, and hope to hear from you soon.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

S1

In this world of billions of people it is not reasonable to think that Lee is the only one who could love you the way you want. It is obvious to me that you and Lee are not soulmates. Perhaps you are serving penance for the things you did in you first marriage. Move on I don't believe Lee will ever leave her current marriage, help her give it her best shot by leaving her alone. One can not give their marriage the best shot by carrying on an affair. Move On!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 15, 2001

S1

Alan, you need to leave Lee. She is an angry person with problems of her own to deal with. You also have problems you need to deal with. Two problematic people with emotional and anger issues do not a healthy couple make. As for trying and trying to regain her love and affection, stop trying. This is a control thing. She withholds the love and affection you need. This keeps her on top and you on the bottom. She may not be doing this consciously, but she is doing it nonetheless. I don't know what her past relationships were like, but again, she seems to be an angry person who is also a controlling person. How do I know this? Because she is the female counterpart of my ex, and you appear to be the male counterpart of me when I was with my ex. The pleading for love, the asking if my significant other loves me, the lukewarm response back, the vicious verbal barrage from my ex, leaving me feeling like yesterday's trash that had been sitting in the rain for 12 hours -- all too familiar to me. Perhaps also, you are with Lee to "punish" yourself for how you treated your wife. Guess what? I think I chose my ex to "punish" myself for how I treated my ex-husband. I was verbally abusive to him and he never once returned that abuse. So what do I do after the divorce? I choose a controlling, verbally and emotionally abusive man who lets me know how a clingy, insecure person I am who is driving him nuts. Alan, you may say you love Lee, but from where I'm standing, it sounds more like addiction, codependency and self-flagellation for how you treated your ex-wife. You need to forgive yourself for past errors and stop the abuse. There is another thing you need to know. You say "I'd do anything to hear her say that she loves me...for her to treat me the way she used to. But it feels like that person is gone." That is right, Alan, that person is gone and is not going to return. There is nothing you can do about that, and it is NOT YOUR FAULT THAT THAT LOVING PERSON DEPARTED. Trust me on this one --- I tried for a year to get that warm, loving man who was in love with me back. It didn't work. I blamed myself, saying, "If only I hadn't done this/said that/been so clingy" etc. My abuser echoed these thoughts. Now I know he echoed these thoughts because it was a convenient excuse for his continuing coldness, verbal abuse, reluctance to work on the relationship, etc. It was also his way of denying that HE CANNOT LOVE IN A HEALTHY WAY OR ACHIEVE TRUE INTIMACY IN A HEALTHY WAY FOR ANY SUSTAINED AMOUNT OF TIME. My ex could always point to "the rosy beginning" of the relationship and blame me for how he developed into a verbally abusive person later on. This was easier than facing the truth: It didn't matter what I did or what any of his other lovers had done. He can't sustain true love. Alan, I suspect even if you were the very picture of the dream man, Lee also would not return to the way she was. NEITHER LEE NOR MY EX WERE EVER REALLY THAT PERSON, DEEP DOWN INSIDE WHERE IT COUNTS. They were just in the heady stages of infatuation and on their best behavior. Alan, stop the self-flagellation, stop the obsession with Lee, a very troubled woman. I know you "feel very weak" but you have more power and control than you realize. Take that control back and put your life back on track. Remember too, that for every time that she abuses you and you accept it, you reinforce her behavior. How does this help her in the long run? Alan, please let me know how you are doing. Good luck. Anna Thanks Anna.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

Thank you so much, Anna. There wasn't anything you wrote that I did not agree with 100%. And you put it in such a way that clearly illustrates what my responsibilities are vs. Lee's.

I had not had any contact with her for several weeks...but then swapped some emails this week. She's now pregnant with her husband. I have been flooded with so many feelings upon hearing this, but most of all plain disbelief. You are right...the person I loved, and that person who loved me, are definitely no longer there...and for that matter, may have never been there. This was infatuation on her part...not true lasting love. For her baby's sake, I hope she's taken a crash course on several key issues over the past few months...but I know in my heart that's not the case. She's literally a 15 year old girl living in a 28 year old woman's body.

I must move on and value myself more. I must stop punishing myself for my past failings, and put all of my energies into the here and now with a firm grasp of who I am and all I have to offer. The past is dead and gone...the future can be as bright as I make it. I am so thankful for your post, Anna. I will refer back to it often as I continue my personal work. Thank you!!!

Alan

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

alan, you sound like a caring and compassionate person. i am not sure why she is so angry, when she is the one wearing the ring... if she is your soul mate, she will fight tooth and nail to be with you, no matter the objects, in the way. there is someone lucky out there, with no built up anger, who will love and respect you, and treat you how you deserve to be treated. viviane

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

alan, you sound like a caring and compassionate person. i am not sure why she is so angry, when she is the one wearing the ring... if she is your soul mate, she will fight tooth and nail to be with you, no matter the objects, in the way. there is someone lucky out there, with no built up anger, who will love and respect you, and treat you how you deserve to be treated. viviane

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 16, 2001

S1

alan, you sound like a caring and compassionate person. i am not sure why she is so angry, when she is the one wearing the ring... if she is your soul mate, she will fight tooth and nail to be with you, no matter the objects, in the way. there is someone lucky out there, with no built up anger, who will love and respect you, and treat you how you deserve to be treated. viviane

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 22, 2001

S1

I agree with the Cyber voice posting. I think you're staying with Lee because you can feel like a victim and then look down on her as the abuser. I don't think ther're is a victim in this story except Lee's husband.

oracle

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 22, 2001

S1

Alan,

What are you getting out of this "bad" relationship? Do you want to be healthy? If you are sick and tired enough of feeling the way you do, you will listen to all of the healthy advice given and start to heal.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001

S1

Leave her. You can do better with lesser effort in a new relationship. You're blind to how hurt you are; this will only remedy once you leave the situation. You cannot change people 100% and most people are not willing to change enough to accomodate another person. Find someone WORTHY of the love/empathy/compassion you can obviously feel towards another person. You are not indebted to a person who seems to care so little about what effect she has on your mental well-being.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001

S1

alan, lee sounds like a narcisist. go to the internet type narcisist (use only the aol search engine not www), there is a wonderful trascript of a conversation with a narcisist complete with questions and answers about this dibiliting personality disorder and how vicitms of narcisits are in a dead end zone. email me anytime. get out and stay far away.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 13, 2002

S1

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, September 18, 2002

S1