Comments for Never Neat Enough
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intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute
for informed advice from your own health care provider.
Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this
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OK, most posts have been restored! Dr. Irene 4/25/00
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 20, 2000
S1
Doreen,
(((((hugs))))) You sound strong. Emotionally sound and Intelligent.
Focus on YOU! You knew that already. Finish that degree.
Talk with the kids. They are old enough to be part of a major decision. Are you considering leaving again? If NOT!-- HIRE A MAID TO COME IN BI-WEEKLY. That will 'look' good and be sanitary.
Get your children into counseling. Be sure you let them know how much YOU LOVE THEM.
Keep us posted.
Peggy
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 20, 2000
S1
Doreen,
Obviously your husband is a super control freak and a rageaholic. But never mind him.... and why he behaves this way...and getting him to change his ways. Why? Cause this won't solve your problem. Why? Because you're asking the wrong questions. The question you should be asking, are of yourself. Ask yourself why do you stay with him. Or better yet, ask yourself the famous Ann Landers question...am I better of with him or without him.
My opinion is that ........................YOU........................... deserve better than to have to tolerate his bullshit. The sooner you realize this....the better off you will be. Forget about him .....and take care of YOU!!!!!! And stop feeling sorry for him......he's not a stray animal that you have taken pity on and taken in....he is a grown man, who can fend for himself.
And one last thing.....deep down inside your husband knows what a horror he is to live with, and doesn't want to lose his human punching bags. Don't ever think otherwise.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 20, 2000
S1
Doreen, Your kids are living in a concentration camp, and you have the key. Use it.
Been there, Nell
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 20, 2000
S1
Doreen,
You don't love him and he is turning your children into total messes that will probably require a lot of therapy and hard work to get them back on track. So why do you go back to him? why do you choose to be with him? because its your CHOICE to be there. I have done the same and when I asked myself these questions the true answers didn't have anything to do with me! it was all about him! his feelings, his hurt, his suicide threats, his tears, his pain. you know what had to do with me was my guilt! I didn't want to hurt him! oh so instead I CHOSE to hurt myself and my children so he wouldn't hurt. does that sound right?
Do you really believe you and your children should be sacrificed for his happiness? and yet he doesn't sound very happy to me! so you are all miserable! for what? he is responsible for his actions! if he actually does attempt suicide that's his doing not yours! I know that sounds so harsh and so mean but its the truth. I gave into that for far to long. before I finally got the strength to kick his sorry abuser butt out my beliefs were ignorant. I didn't realize what kind of damage was happening to the children. I thought I was sacrificing me for them. my happiness for theirs and his seemed reasonable to me, because after all I made a VOW, I made my bed now I have to lay in it, I wanted to give my children a whole family, mother and father under the same roof and a happy stable complete childhood that I never had. what wouldn't a mother do for her children, we would fight to the death and beyond for them. this was my thinking! my promises to God and my children come before anything was my very strong beliefs. I lost myself! its been a darn hard struggle for the last couple years to find me again. I had to do a lot of soul searching and reflecting and finding answers. educating myself to my circumstances so I could make better decisions. I did the best I could from the knowledge I had but obviously it wasn't quite right because my life was such a mess. I was given the advice that what's ever best for me IS what is best for my children.
Then I began educating myself! its ironic but the very thing that kept me so chained to this marriage was the biggest motivator in why I should get out. The children! its damaging them further by staying! them seeing or hearing me being abused is abusive to them. the dysfunctional family creates unhealthy dysfunctional people. Even if you tell the kids hey your father is a total lunatic what he does is wrong. deep inside their unconscious their home life is forming their beliefs. children learn about the world through their home. what goes on in the home is what is normal and what the rest of the world is like, to them. no matter how many times you tell them its wrong. the fact you are remaining there is teaching them that its not all that wrong. like the speed limit. we all know what it is, but who really abides it? sure its wrong to go over it but its acceptable to. it took me a long time to realize where I got that my husbands rage was "normal" that everyone loses control when angry enough and you do something to cause them to be that angry.
you can already see what's going on in your home. you wrote it out! I didn't see you listing all the positives. because you know this is wrong!
As far as Vows go, do you believe this a marriage God would approve of? your number one priority above your marriage is your children.
best wishes to you! ~Suz
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 20, 2000
S1
What a pity. Why are you doing this to yourself and your children? This man is very ill and at his age there's not much hope for change. I never quite understand the advice given on "setting boundaries or limitations". The very problem with these abusive personalities is that they know NO BOUNDARIES, which is why the relationship doesn't work!! They just don't give a damn about anything but themselves, obviously, or we victims wouldn't constantly walk around feeling unhappy, disrespected, scared, confused, frustrated, etc. The only thing we as victims are responsible for is STAYING...in a sense we deserve it because we stay. But I'm learning... and you can learn too!
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, April 21, 2000
S1
To the previous post:
"I never quite understand the advice given on "setting boundaries or limitations". The very problem with these abusive personalities is that they know NO BOUNDARIES, which is why the relationship doesn't work!!"
Along with setting boundaries and limitations comes ENFORCING them. My understanding is if they do not respond to the setting of boundaries then you must enforce, by making sure you follow through with the consequence mentioned. if it boils down to they are too self centered to learn to respect boundaries then you leave.
the reason the relationship doesn't work is not solely on the shoulders of the one who knows no boundaries. there is a reason they know no boundaries, they have been allowed to behave that way. when we give in it rewards and encourages their behavior.
The child who was spoiled rotten by the parents that chose to give in, rather then go the extra mile to teach delayed gratification, discipline and limits has been wronged by his/her parents. In trying to make their own lives easier they have made his/hers more difficult with many obstacles and much pain in their future. The parents created the monster, however they are still responsible for taking responsibility for themselves. unfortunately they too often find codependents who continue to do them the injustice that the parents started. You must allow them to feel the consequences of their actions so they can grow.
IMHO ~Suz
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, April 21, 2000
S1
I am in need of help but from a different view point all together. I have recently married a woman that I love tremendously. I am very loving, affectionate, and responsive to her needs. I feel she loves me very much and she treats me very well. Abuse between us is non-exist ant, as far as I can tell. The problem is, she was married to a man that was incredibly verbally abusive. He is exactly what you described your husband to be. Every word you have said, describes him. He will call her and he sends her into a deep depression and she cries after he sends an email. He is so manipulative, and she falls for his crap all the time. She almost went back to him 2 months ago and I just don't understand why she would do that. She tells me she is so happy with me and she loves me with all her heart, but she talks to him and she feels so bad that she wants to go back. How can this be possible? I talked to him last weekend for the first time ever and said, "you will never call, fax, or email my wife again. Well, guess what, there was an email 2 days later from him. I called him and demanded he not do that again. He said he understood, but I know he doesn't. If he contacts her, he will depress her over and over. I need help. What do I do to end this jerks power over my wife?
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, April 21, 2000
S1
In response to the above post:
There are several issues to address with your wife. First, she needs to dump the guilt. That is why she listens to him and he subsequently makes HER feel depressed. She is not responsible for him or his feelings. She must "disengage" from him should he attempt communication with her. It is a control issue. HE KNOWS he is making her feel bad and that is exactly what he wants. Since he can still make her feel bad, he still has control. Your wife needs to recognize this and take appropriate actions herself. You cannot do this for her, even though you wish to protect her. If children are involved, not communicating with him at all would be difficult. She must set her boundaries with him. If there are no kids involved, there is no reason to communicate with him at all. It's very easy to change your e-mail address and your phone number. The bottom line is your wife needs to address why she is letting him get to her. She must develop the skills to let her ex know that his communications are not acceptable. There are many good books on assertiveness. You both sound like a caring couple, and you are right in voicing your concern. If she does not know how to deal with him, she needs to get help. I speak from experience on this one. If it were not for my children, I would have no contact with my ex. He gave me hell. As soon as he would start something, I had to consciously say to myself, "disengage, disengage!" and remove myself from his presence. It has been nearly three years for me, and I'm still not 100% over the trauma of dealing with him. I'm not sure I ever will be totally. Sometimes I'm not sure he's finished with me yet. It has been hard, but I at least am not constantly wondering what he might do or say next. Let his new wife deal with it. But the only way I got through it was with counseling, medication and a supportive family. Even with that-I still had to do it myself, as your wife needs to. Have patience with her. She may still fear him and threats he has made. Fear is very powerful and quite an obstacle to overcome. I wish you the very best!
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, April 21, 2000
S1
In response to response to my wife's jerk ex. Thank you so much. I think you are right that she cannot rely on me to take him our of her life. She needs to find the strength to do that on her own. I am going to talk to her and tell her that she needs to learn to disengage in a conversation from him. She has such a hard time doing that. She has to learn to do that, I know. Thank you so much for your advice. Randy
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, April 21, 2000
S1
Please, Please leave for your kids sake. Sounds like you can support them. If you can't do it for yourself do it for them. Sometimes we can't help ourselves but when the kids are involved we get a lot stronger. Good luck, they are depending on you.
Elle
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, April 24, 2000
S1
Men can and also are many times victims of verbal abuse but I seldom if ever see anything on this perhaps we need to explore this with more articles and start recognizing that men need your advise as well. whenever
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2000
S1
Thanks to all who responded to my letter to Dr. Irene. I think what helps so much is that others agree that "things are wrong"! I knew it all along--but yet wasn't quite sure. You read all kinds of stuff about abuse and think "Well, he's not THAT bad!" "Well, at least he doesn't do THAT". Then you start to convince yourself that maybe you don't have it so bad after all--there are so many who have it worse. That's what so weird about VERBAL abuse---it's too easy to discount as "not THAT bad". The validation from all who responded, including you, Dr. Irene, has given me more strength that you can know. I'm putting together how I'm going to talk to the kids--looking into getting some counseling for them. I guess I didn't think they KNEW--but I was just kidding myself. I'm getting stronger--and smarter every day! THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE. (Dorene) Knowledge is power! Dr. Irene
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2000
S1
Listen to yourself -- you know if you are happy or not. Sure, some people have it worse, but that doesn't mean that you're happy!
You deserve to feel good. :)
(To the person above, with the wife's ex... You should encourage your wife to get counseling, therapy, medication, whatever. She still has issues with this man *and* with herself. She needs help to fix herself.)
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2000
S1
I feel so bad for you. I am in the same type of situation, and it's very hard to get out, especially when kids are involved. one thing that I know is that I will not make the same mistake as you, and stay for so long, and let him abuse my child. for god sake, if anything think about what he's doing to your kids! it's not fair to them. I know you're afraid to leave, but do it for yourself, and your children. you all deserve better!
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 03, 2000
S1
Sounds familiar but in reverse. My wife is the perfectionist. First few years against me, then as our children got older, my daughter in particular; she started calling them names such as: idiot, stupid, worthless, brat, shit, bitch. In casual conversations she would make snide remarks about me. I was supposed to be united in front of the children, so I would not respond back. My daughter is now 15 and will not take it anymore and answers back, sometimes inappropriately. Mom taught her how... Verbal assaults have turned into my wife physically attacking my daughter ugh..., when I intervene she attacks me. Social services gets involved and writes it off as a misbehaving teenager. Thus, this is all my fault because I will not support my wife.
I hope this is not the direction your headed; a drastic change is necessary to prevent it. Your advantage is society will believe you as a woman, but if you were a man, take it like a man.
Best of luck, Dale Dale - don't use your gender as an excuse to give up, feel sorry for yourself, etc. Take your power. Your job is really no different than the job the female victim has. Promise... Dr. Irene
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000
S1
Why Oh Why do we stay as long as we do? I have a college degree and make $59K annually. My verbally abusive boyfriend of ten years and I have one son and I know our arguments are adversely affecting him. I have a few bills but I'm paying them off. My sense is not to wait until I can afford a house to buy (we live in his). My senses tell me leave now, get the house later. Why can't my brain connect to my feet. I had a shitty mother's day. I'm sick of feeling sorry for myself. I WANT OUT. If I feel if I could make good one escape from here like Doreen, I'd never come back.
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 27, 2002
S1
Doreen, I too am married to a man who is Obsessive Compulsive Personality disorder. Medication wont help this disorder, only therapy, and what makes it frustrating is they wont admit/see they have a problem (its always everyone else with the problem) They live by what they think is "logic" their "rules", so they will never see they have a problem and so will never seek help of their own accord... I have been with my husband for 3 years, and am about to leave him. I'm tired of being criticised, controlled, spoken to like a second rate citizen, he's mean with money and his belongings, and is verbally abusive, and is the biggest hypocrit god put on this earth. Super sensative to any thing negative anyone has to say. He is routine and 'rule' addictive, is a perfectionist, procrastinator, no body else can do it like him (eg. your husband and the beds). His way is the only way... Nothing will change him, in my opinion assertiveness training wont help the situation with your husband, because he will only get more abusive to gain and keep control...(It will help you with other relationships though)If I were you protect your children, you are being defensive for them, to compensate for his abuse towards them. Stop any more damage to yourself and especially your children - they deserve peace and to learn how to assert themselves in a normal relationship with people - your husband has a personality disorder, get out now! It seems to me that you are a very competent woman, you wont lie down and die, but he will. He will never change, believe me - Im doing the same thing myself. I have finally given up. Dr. Do you know much on the subject of Obsessive compuslive PERSONALITY disorder, as opposed to obsessive compulsive disorder?? I would love to know about your experiences with these people or advice? regards, Annie from Australia.