Comments: A Guy's Breaking Point

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Thursday May 09, 2002

My Dear Bryan, I read your letter and wish you had given more detail about your previous 3 marriages. Have you had any counseling? I’m not sure you will hear or understand anything I may say. I will start with the ending of your letter. You said, “Sometimes I truly feel these are the cards I've been dealt and I just need to tough it out and learn to adapt. But.......I want to be happy so badly...I want to freely give and receive love, no limitations, no hesitation, no more confusion. I wonder constantly if I am getting closer to that breaking point or actually further away. It's all beginning to feel truly hopeless”. It does seem you are the victim. Amazing that you keep getting into all these card games over the years and keep getting bad hands. Reminds me of the women that was always getting beaten up by her different boyfriends. She was asked where does she find these guys. She answered, “the bikers bar down town”. But, I don’t buy your story. Where are love, compassion, and understanding in any of these marriages? I do hear blame. Of course you are guilty of only being a caretaker. (Not a good one at that). You stated, “My wife was sexually abused by her father as a child and is still VERY angry, although she has been in counseling twice in 10 years (a year each time) and says she is fine with all of it now”. Her trust was violated as a little girl. She fears trusting again. (Any man). Daughters with healthy, close ties to their fathers have better chances of successful relationships. A father helps a girl grow into a strong, independent woman. As daughters grow older, fathers that had treated them as equals help build their self-confidence and self-esteem. When this happens a women has a better chance (still must pick the right guy) of having a close, loving relationship. My point is you have not gained her trust. If anything you have fed her fears. You are like her father and she cannot trust you with her love just as she could not trust her own father with her love. No, you will not protect her and give her the support she needs. So she will never open up and become vulnerable. You cannot be trusted.

Instead of feeling hopeless, try taking control of your life. Set a goal. Don’t play a game of chance. Tell her you want to work on this problem with her. Suggest going to counseling together. Make your mind up that you want this marriage to work. That you want her to trust your love (after you earn it). Work with her, get close, share moments, and ask her what she needs from you. Once she tells you do your best to fulfill her needs. If you and she can become a team working for the same goal, you may experience for the first time in all your marriages what was missing and that was—you and you love.

Wayne L. Misner

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Thursday May 09, 2002

Wayne L. Misner

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Thursday May 09, 2002

Wayne L. Misner

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Thursday May 09, 2002

Dear Bryan,

I happen to agree with Wayne that the ONLY thing that is within your power to change is yourself.

Having had the experience of "picking" women with a history of emotional incest, incest or sexual molestation, I (finally) came to the awareness that the common denominator in these ALL relationships was ME. What eventually entered my mindfulness was the realization that I was bringing these women into my life so that I COULD HEAL. For me, this has taken the course of getting sober, doing the inventories (resentment, sex and FEAR) that I needed to do to come to the understanding of who I was and begining to CHANGE what I believed about myself. This journey has taken me, at EXACTLY the right moment, to other sources of help, inspiration, empathy, compassion and growth.

ALL of the answers to the questions that are being asked lie within Bryan...uncover, discover and discard.

I am unable to GIVE what I do not HAVE.

That means: in order to TRUST, I must first trust myself, in order to LOVE, I must first love myself. WE ATTRACT WHAT WE ARE.

I too, would like to hear more about the other marriages. As we get older, repeating the same things, over and over, that do not WORK - the hammer that drops on our heads gets heavier ( it's MY hammer). I would view this as an opportunity rather than a problem. What is the message the UNIVERSE is sending to Bryan?

What does that 11th. Step prayer tell me:

" Lord, make me a channel of thy peace - that where there is hatred, I may bring love - that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness - that where there is discord, I may bring harmony - that where there is error, I may bring truth - that where there is doubt, I may bring faith - that where there is despair, I may bring hope - that where there are shadows, I may bring light - that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Lord, grant that I may seek to comfort than to be comforted - to understand, than to be understood - to love, than to be loved. For it is self-forgetting that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to Eternal Life. Amen." (12x12, pg.99)

Again, The Kingdom lies within... healing and growth are an INSIDE job.

planettrout

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Thursday May 09, 2002

Dear Bryan,

I happen to agree with Wayne that the ONLY thing that is within your power to change is yourself.

Having had the experience of "picking" women with a history of emotional incest, incest or sexual molestation, I (finally) came to the awareness that the common denominator in all these relationships was ME. What eventually entered my mindfulness was the realization that I was bringing these women into my life so that I COULD HEAL. For me, this has taken the course of getting sober, doing the inventories (resentment, sex and FEAR) that I needed to do to come to the understanding of who I was and begining to CHANGE what I believed about myself. This journey has taken me, at EXACTLY the right moment, to other sources of help, inspiration, empathy, compassion and growth.

ALL of the answers to the questions that are being asked lie within Bryan...uncover, discover and discard.

I am unable to GIVE what I do not HAVE.

That means: in order to TRUST, I must first trust myself, in order to LOVE, I must first love myself. WE ATTRACT WHAT WE ARE.

What does that 11th. Step prayer tell me:

Again, The Kingdom lies within... healing and growth are an INSIDE job.

planettrout

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Thursday May 09, 2002

Hello....I was going to reply but stopped dead in my tracks when Wayne said you "cannot be trusted". What did I miss? It seems we all got to where we were and to this site for something we missed. So, what is it here? I'd like to know because I cannot find it in re-reading his letter.

Thank you

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Thursday May 09, 2002

Hi, this is Bryan. I have to admit I was a little dismayed at Waynes reply. I don't know why you feel I can not be trusted when you don't know me personally. My Story may not have been written very well, I'm not much of a writer and wasn't sure where to stop. But I'd be happy to explain more about my marriages. And I do know I am to blame, as I wrote. I don't blame my wife, I know I allow what goes on. My Story was written mostly in hopes of helping others who may not be as deep in yet. I wanted to show them how fast it can snowball when no action is taken. I accept my codependency and realize I am at fault....I just wanted to show others that they don't ever have to get to that point of feeling paralyzed, as I have. I was very young when I first married, 19. She was my high school sweetheart. As soon as we married, everything changed. She had friends in college who constantly invited her out to parties and I believe she came to a point where she felt she was missing something by getting married so young. Sometimes I'd be invited to the parties, but as time went on I was invited less and less. Told it was "girls night out". I had no problem with that until she started coming home not just tipsy, but very drunk. And then that slowly turned to cocaine use. I am aware of no abuse at all from her past, her family seemed very concerned when this started. Even she couldn't answer when asked "why"? Over the next couple years, she went into rehab twice. I visited her every visitors day without fail, and did everything I could to cheer her. I took along some of her friends with me as surprises, and sat with her many hours crying with her. I would speak to her counselors and they would say she seemed better and could safely be released. Then slowly it would start again. The last time was worse than ever. I ended up being told by my employer that I would be let go if I missed many more days of work, (stayed home with her a lot on her bad days..I was afraid to leave). One day I came home and she was gone. She did call later to say she was safe with a friend out of town, but she said she did not want to talk about her problems anymore. I still hung on for months, I missed her desperately (the old her) but finally at the urging of my employer, friends, parents and believe it or not, even her parents, I filed for divorce. We had no children and no real assets and it was over quickly. We were married 3 1/2 years. I understand that now, 21 years later, she is doing well, married with children, but we have not spoken since then. And yes, sometimes I still wonder, "maybe if I had just waited a little longer". After that, I was pretty depressed for awhile. Fortunately my family lives in the same town and they were all very supportive. This is when I got into exercise. It was the healthiest stress release I could find. Granted, drugs crossed my mind a few times but after seeing what they could do, I was more afraid of them than intrigued. Didn't date for years....just got busier at work. Finally about 9 years later, I did marry again. This one lasted about 2 years. She was beautiful and funny and warm hearted and I thought all my waiting had really paid off. After we married, she began slowly mentioning things about her childhood that she had left out of conversations before we were married. Her parents divorced when she was very young and her and her mother struggled for years. I felt very sorry for her. Over time the credit card balances slowly went sky high. We had constant arguements about her spending habits. She'd be remorsesful, then turn around and do it again. After awhile she was completely out of control and boy were we in debt. I always listened to her reasons and believed her (yes I know that was stupid!)so unfortunately it took being in deep debt before I stood my ground. As you may have guessed, she didn't like that too much. To rebel (I guess) she just up and quit her job one day and sat around the house getting more depressed. 3 months later an old friend felt he had to break the news to me that she was having an affair. She denied it all, said she loved me "dearly" and wanted to work it out and a month later, I saw them myself together. I filed for divorce the following week. All I know to date is she stayed with him for awhile, but married another man a few years ago, a corporate executive. I was 34 then and still could not see my part in any of it. I met my third wife, she became pregnant (while on the pill???) and I believed it was right to marry her. We had a quick, small wedding and 6 weeks later she miscarried. I still haven't quite figured this one out, all I know is she became very different all of a sudden. I assumed it was depression, rightly so, and tried very hard to be loving and kind. One day she went away for a weekend with her sister and a few hours later I was served divorce papers. I went a little bonkers myself after that......and ended up in counseling. The counselor helped me understand for the first time about codependency and that I was obviously trying to heal some hole inside of me by marrying woman with problems. I stayed in counseling about 5 months, and left with a lot of new knowledge but not much of a grip yet on where this "hole" inside me came from. To be honest, I still can't figure it out. My childhood was not rough at all, parents still married, no addictions (well except me)and we all get along fine. My counselor did say once that sometimes it turns out to be something that is not knowingly traumatic, (like incest, or physical abuse, etc) that causes the hole inside of us. Like having a working mom and just needing more attention than the others, or having a close relative die that we dearly loved and wanted to help but couldn't. So I guess I finally decided that I'd go crazy trying to figure out what it was so I just vowed to be very cautious at the start of relationships from then on. When I met my current wife I DID see, from the start, that she also seemed like a lost soul, still hurting from her past.....but I jumped right in again. It wasn't until recently that I learned this is actually a kind of addiction and I was hooked once again. I am still amazed at how I could justify in my mind that this time was going to be different. Then, things started to change right after she moved in with me.....and the more I thought of leaving, the more I dug in my heels. I seemed to have fear worse than ever before of hurting her feelings. You say I have not earned her love and trust, but I have tried to very hard, the best way I know how. I do not even look at other woman, magazines, catalogs...all removed from our house. She loves white daisies....I send them to her at work probably once a month. I have given more foot and back massages than I can even count, hold her when she crys,listen attentively to all her woes, keep my mouth shut when she is in a bad mood. When she wants to go somewhere we go. I do not complain, I just try to make her happy. I clean the house on the weekends, make 6 out of 7 dinners weekly, am nice and polite to all her friends and have done every "favor" she has ever asked. Also, in the beginning of our relationship sex was great. Then one day she announced "that romantic stuff" wasn't nessesary anymore. I asked if it was anything I did, she said no.....I asked if it brought back painful memories of her past, she said no, I asked if she was interested in someone else, she said no. I decided it had to have something to do with her past and vowed to be forever patient. I felt like one day she would see how patient and selfless I had been and want to show her love for me in a physical way as well. But that day has not come yet. And as much as I hate it, I have read that woman who were sexually abused as little girls sometimes grow up to be promiscuous so I have even resorted to telling myself that the cheating I know she has done (but can't prove) is something she can't help. As I said before, the main reason I wrote was to just try to be a living example of someone who still can't find the guts and hope it would urge others to NOT follow my example. Wayne, you mentioned counseling. We did do counseling (I think I put that in My Story)at my urging. She didn't even go the first 3 months (she said because our problems were not her fault and she didn't need counseling.) We went for a year and we finally stopped going when her and the counselor decided that she was who she was and I either had to put up with it or leave. I have endlessly told her that I want this marriage to work, I have tried "getting close" every way I can imagine, usually get pushed away. I support her hobbies and her dreams. I try to share every waking moment with her when I'm not at work. If I even hint going to the movie with a buddy or my brother, she has a fit, saying I don't want to be with her. So I stay home and try to plan something she would like. She freezes up then and says I'm only doing that out of guilt. I have tried long heart to heart talks hundreds of times. She's okay talking about herself, but when I start to bring up my fears or sorrows or dreams she becomes sleepy and says we'll continue tomorrow, which rarely happens. And lastly, I have endlessly asked her how I can fulfill her needs. She then says "I'm perfectly happy and don't have a clue what your problem is". My brother finally lashed out one day and told me "well of course you meet her needs, you do everything she wants"!! So....I guess I don't know how to become a "team". Like I said in My Story.....we pretty much just go through the motions now. We work, eat lunch and dinner together everyday, go grocery shopping together, sometimes go to the movies, sometimes visit her family for an evening, go to bed, get up the next day, repeat. I KNOW I am responsible for my own feelings, I know I have quite a problem, but if absolutely nothing else, I do believe I'm a nice and decent person and deserve better. But if I knew HOW to leave without feeling like I would literally die of the guilt, shame, and fear then I wouldn't have felt the need to write to this web site in the first place. I truly do feel stuck for life. My head knows I'm not but my heart seems to always rule and I am having a very hard time with it. I hope this helped explain things better. I'm sorry it's so long. And thank you for your replys and concern, Bryan

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Friday May 10, 2002

Bryan, You said, “I have to admit I was a little dismayed at Waynes reply. I don't know why you feel I can not be trusted when you don't know me personally.” True I don’t know you. So I must guess what the problem may be from HER eyes, not yours. You say, “She is a master at avoiding anything she doesn't want to do: talking, sex, going someplace I want to go, etc... She virtually ignores me when I am upset and want to talk about something that's bothering me. She will chat with me, but if or when it turns into a serious discussion, she just throws her arms up and walks away. She tells me all the time that I am selfish and mean and arrogant and a jerk and frustrating and hard to live with. Can't help but wonder if that's at least some kind of modified verbal abuse.” My point is she may not trust you. (Not me!) That she feels you cannot be trusted. (By the way, many women who have been abused when young girls have trouble trusting men when they grow up).

She may be testing you and your love. HERE ARE SOME POSSIBILITIES:

· Fear that she is not lovable. · Fear of failure. · Fear of not being in control. · Fear of not knowing. · Fear of rejection. · Fear that if you find out who she really is you will not want her. · Fear of abandonment.

It’s very possible that she feel worthless, guilty and ashamed. I was physically abused as a little boy growing up. Then my father abandoned me when I was nine years old. The lack of a father to help validate me, to love me, and a man I could love, left a void and empty hole inside of me which I will never be able to fill. I have learned to live with it, but to be abandoned emotionally is to struggle the rest of your life to be validated. It also implants a fear that all those you will love in the future will also abandon you. I believe that those women who get angry and push their significant others away are subconsciously testing them to see if they will leave or if they really do love them and will stay. This is a self-defeating method that erodes the love of the significant other until there is no love left and he does walk away--another self-fulfilling prophecy.

You also said, “She has wanted to have a baby for several years now but so far we have had no luck. Of course, she blames me solely for this too”. Have you both been tested? If not, why not? If this is important to her (& it sounds like it from what you wrote) it should be important to you. If you wanted to work with her on this issue maybe she would “Trust” you more.

I was talking about her trust not anyone else.

Wayne L. Misner

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Friday May 10, 2002

She may be testing you and your love. HERE ARE SOME POSSIBILITIES:

I was talking about her trust not anyone else.

Wayne L. Misner

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Friday May 10, 2002

Dear Bryan,

Thanks for providing additional information on your previous marriages.

It seems to me that there is a CONSISTENT pattern in YOUR choice of partners:

Wife # 1. substance abuser - emotionally UNAVAILABLE Wife # 2. spending addiction/ possible sex addict - emotionally UNAVAILABLE Wife # 3. emotionally UNAVAILABLE Wife # 4. incest survivor - emotionally UNAVAILABLE

As BOTH John Bradshaw and Robert Burney point out, unless I do MY family of origin work, heal from MY codepedency, address MY addictions...nothing changes. And if nothing changes, nothing CHANGES.

In AA it is called, " doing the same things over and over again, expecting different results." It is applicable to ALL things in my life. To learn this lesson, I substitute the word THINKING for drinking, THINK for drink, in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. My THINKER is BROKEN.

I choose emotionally unavailable women because I am emotionally unavailable.

Another wonderful axiom posited to me by numerous hardcore oldtimers was: " Two sickies do not make a wellie."

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Friday May 10, 2002

...cont. (apologies to Bryan and Trubble, fishing buddy called, my attention turned to trout and I hit the submit button.)

What these people were teaching me was: that I must heal myself. Everything that I knew THEN was written on the inside of the cover of the Big Book... and it is blank.

Five months with a therapist does not a healing make. I will pose it to you Bryan the same way it was posed to me: How long did it take you to walk into the forrest? How long do you think it will take you to walk out?

There are support groups for partners of incest survivors.

There are 12 Step groups for codependents.

There are many useful book titles in this website's bookshelf.

Robert Burney's website is a warehouse of wisdom.

There is a GOD inside of Bryan who loves him and wants the best for him...there is a GOD inside of Bryan's wife who loves her and wants the best for her. Both of you are his kids.

There is no Chapter in the Big Book called "in to thinking". There is one titled "In To Action".

Chuck C., wrote a wonderful book titled: " A New Pair of Glasses. It was based on a series of talks he gave in Palm Springs many, many years ago. Find it,read it. Look for the section where he speaks to a friend (non-alcoholic) who tells him that he loves his wife, but is not "in love" with his wife. His friend asks him, " What should I do?"

Chuck C. begins his reply with, " You're not gonna' like what I'm going to tell you...

But then, I'd spoil it.

Best to you, join us on the path.

planettrout

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Friday May 10, 2002

Your wife sounds like my husband in many ways. She also sounds exactly like D's mother. You seem to me to be very codependent (takes one to know one). I think self-help is good but have you gone to counseling?

This woman is abusing and controlling you. You need to get help before you wear down anymore. I do know how you feel. You need to take responsibility for your own happiness. You are not responsible for hers. It is not your job to be her crutch to fulfill her or cure her problems. She is happy with the way things are because she is in total control. Gives with one hand and takes with the other. It helped me to move out. Without D there everyday wearing me down I started to get perspective.

She has been in therapy for many years. Do you think you your love alone will cure her? You have to decide if you want to live this way forever and then bring a baby into a non healthy environment. It doesn't sound good to me. I fell in love with a fantasy person, now I see him clearer.

I feel this will only get worse with time. If you do leave her make sure you get help and heal before moving on to a new love. You may end up just where you started with someone new.

Rissa

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Saturday May 11, 2002

Dear Bryan, Portia Nelson wrote, “ There’s a Hole in My Sidewalk”, Beyond Words Publishing, Hillsboro, Oregon.

Autobiography in Five Short Chapters

I I walk down the street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I fall in. I am lost…I am helpless. It is not my fault. It takes forever to find my way out.

II I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I pretend I don’t see it. I fall in. I can’t believe I am in the same place. But it isn’t my fault. It still takes a long time to get out.

III I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I see it there. I still fall in…It’s a habit. My eyes are open. I know where I am. It is my fault. I get out immediately.

IV I walk down the same street. There is a deep hole in the sidewalk. I walk around it.

V I walk down another street.

Wayne L. Misner

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Saturday May 11, 2002

The feeling of relief you felt when you imagined not going through with the wedding and the turmoil you now feel on a regular basis, tell me that it might be healthier for you to be on your own. Even if you have to be alone, you won't lose anything. You will gain a healthier emotional state of mind on a regular basis and you can use this to accomplish more in life and in your relationships with others. The amount of stress you talk about is just too sad.

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Saturday May 11, 2002

Bryan, Reading about what this woman has been doing to you, her selfish ways, is making me angry, but you are the one who needs to get angry at her mis-treatment. I understand that part of the appeal is that she is the supreme challenge- the challenge to get her to finally show that she loves you. You have tried so hard, invested so much, I can see why it is difficult to call it quits. But, wouldn't it be so much better to find someone who will return the love, who will listen to you talk about your day, who will not drain every drop of blood from you, who will fill you up, not drain you dry. Bryan, please, I know you have the strength. Don't give up on yourself. File for divorce. Find that relief your soul really craves.

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Sunday May 12, 2002

Bryan,

I was sexually abused as a child. I agree with Wayne that she may not be able to trust. I lived in a situation that I realized I did not trust myself eithor or my ability to assess dangerous situations. My perceptions were messed with as a child. I was living with someone that was not trustworthy. Once I learned to trust myself then trusting others fell into place. It was not so much that I could trust them, but that I could trust that I would be able to cope with what ever hand I was dealt.

I was married for 9 1/2 years trying to "make" him happy. It was like filling a bucket with holes in the bottom. He had this empty hole that only he could fill up. I was drained emotionally. Not to mention that I had my own hole that needed attention. I did not learn as a child how to cope and walk away from that which hurts.

Now that I have learned to take care of myself, and fill my own hole. The empty hole is still there but I can nurture it in healthy ways. I am able to cope with it. I know the feeling and can identify it. I am feeling more able to extend my love to another. As long as that person can allow me enough space to nurture myself.

I had to be separated from my husband since he was a narcissist. He needed me. He engulfed me. When I pulled away to take care of my own needs he flipped out. I had to do what was necessary to take care of myself. I felt like we were both drowning. One of us had to let go or we would both drown.

I have learned how to accept the powerlessness over others. Have faith in myself. I understand now that the only person that I can control or make happy is myself. Some people just can't be happy due to high expectations. Another person is icing on the cake. If that person is not whole or does not have the ability to stand on his own then I know I can't do it for him. He will forever be leaning on me.

What would it feel like to you to be happy or take care of your own needs? Let her cope with her own stuff. What do you do to nurture yourself?

Keep reading and learning...It's worth it :)

methinksfree

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Monday May 13, 2002

Dear Bryan,

I guess you know as well as any that the way your wife behaves is NOT OK. You find excuses for both her behaviour and the bad behaviour of your past wifes. Though I think it is good to try and find out why other people do what they do, it is not good to use that udnerstanding as an excuse. Every one is responsable for their own behaviour, no matter what the reasons are and finding excuses for them is typicaly codependent. But I think you already know that as well.

You say your wife claims theapy is not necesarry since whe does not have a problem. You have no sane option but to accepts that this for her is true (no matter how much you feel it would help). You an however continue to see a therapist for yourself, to help you sort out your codependent patterns. Knowing is not enough, it takes a lot of time and work to make a different live and live a different pattern (know that, been their, even though I am still in the same marriage). You cannot change her, only she can do that. You can change yourself however.

It might be wise to disatnce yourself soemwhat from her. I think you are just trying too hard and that sometimes can give people the feeling of being stiffled and anyway tells her that no matter what she does, you are still there and doing your best. It took me a long time to realise that this kind of behaviour sort of invites 'abusers' to be abusive. They are not able to control themselves and we, the 'victim's' don't even tell them to stop when they are hurting us.

Learn to take care of yourself, learn to love yourself, learn not to be too depedent on others for feeling good about yourself. And think hard about why you would want to be in a relationship that gives you nothing but hurt. There's more to live then that and you deserve it as well as any one else. You cannot help people who do not want to be helped and in trying to do so you will only help them to avoid the need to confront their own prolems.... Therefor, they will never heal!

Try posting on the Catbox or Trubble Yak to get some mor day to day help. Keep reading and don't run from your own feelings.

Good luck

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Monday May 13, 2002

Umm, Bryan...Grow a back-bone buddy!

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Monday May 13, 2002

"Grow a backbone..." Nice response! I have never seen such a hurtful, uncaring response to any woman posting on the Yak board. I've noticed that many of the responses to Bryan so far are extremely opposite of the caring concern shown to women posting similar repeated abusive relationship stories. Maybe the fact that Bryan is a man changes opinions. I agree that therapy to help with codependent patterns is a fabulous idea, but insults only further harm what must be an already damaged ego.

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Monday May 13, 2002

These posts are very interesting. I notice that being a man Bryan gets some responses without much empathy at all. Even the sidewalk response; I liked it but it was just in your face and nothing else. No support at all. Maybe that's guy speak!?

Bryan I can say this to you. You do have support on this page. You don't have children so you can be "selfish" and just think of yourself. Move on and take advantage of new opportunities. And by the way, which ever street you walk on there will always be holes in the sidewalk. I just think you should find a street where the holes are no bigger than tiddly-winks! You can't fall into those....just walk right on over them!

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Monday May 13, 2002

I completely agree with the sentiments of some of the most recent posters. There seems to some underlying assumption that if his wife is the abuser, it's somehow Bryans fault and he's not being understanding enough or he's suffocating her too much. I am a woman and was pretty suprised by the number of people who want to second guess Bryan. I take Bryans story at face value, regardless of previous marriages, this one is in big trouble and I feel for this man drowning in the difficulty he is having getting away from this very selfish abusive individual. She fits the profile of an abuser perfectly. Why that is not obvious to all shows us how much people see things through a very biased lense.

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Tuesday May 14, 2002

To all posters,

I noticed not everyone posting is signing their posts and I would like to ask you to do so, cause it will make it easier to respond.

As for the feeling that Bryan is not getting support, I would like to know how Bryan feels. I agree the first answer knocked me of my feet as weel, it felt rather agressive, but appertenly was not meant to be.

Sympathazing and validation are necesarry, but at the same time I feel that too much sypathizing gets too be victimizing the 'victim' even further. Sure Bryan's wife is behaving abusive and whatever the reasons for that, that is not ok. When I said something about stiffling and distancing and trying to be to good, I spoke form my own experience. I know I always tried just too hard and that did not help at all, neither me, nor my partner. I think, especially looking back on my own situation, that the best help you can get is the help that's empowering you, that's telling you you are not a powerless victim, but there are things you can do yourself to change the situation and to focus on those.

That's the help I got on these boards and which I in my turn will try to provide to others, male and female alike.

I do totally agree that just critizing will not do much good. Just sypathising will not either...

I suddenly realize I am sounding a bit defensive, sorry for that. I hope I have been able to express how I feel about this and I sure hope Bryan does not feel unsupported here. We wold welcome you on the otrher boards Bryan and I know you will get sympathy and support there!!!

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Tuesday May 14, 2002

To all posters,

I noticed not everyone posting is signing their posts and I would like to ask you to do so, cause it will make it easier to respond.

That's the help I got on these boards and which I in my turn will try to provide to others, male and female alike.

I do totally agree that just critizing will not do much good. Just sypathising will not either...

I suddenly realize I am sounding a bit defensive, sorry for that. I hope I have been able to express how I feel about this and I sure hope Bryan does not feel unsupported here.

I am sure you would be welcome on the other boards, Bryan (sad lack of males there :-))and I know you will get sympathy and support there and it's agreat help to sort things out when you talk to other people in the same kind of situation.

Bryan hang in there and you will sort this all out. You made the first step by coming here and you can walk the rest of it as well!

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Tuesday May 14, 2002

AJ, I completely agree with you that sympathy is not enough. I am the first person to try to sort and suggest what the abused person could be doing to turn it around. But, what I noticed was that there was more critisism of Bryan from the get-go, more assuming that his pattern in marriage was the problem than I have seen when the woman is the poster. I have been reading these posts for about 2 years now. The Cat Box, Trubble. Where ever someone is posting I read it. I bring this up only because I think it's something people are not even aware of. How quickly they assume if the man is being abused he is bringing it on himself, he's a wimp, there's something wrong with him, he's not allowing for the pain she's been through etc.

Lee K

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Wednesday May 15, 2002

Hello everyone, this is Bryan. First, I want to say thank you to everyone, regardless of what your opinion was. I asked, you answered, you have every right to speak your mind. Second, didn't mean to start any debates, sorry guys. I got something from each and every one of you. Granted, it's not nessesarily fun to be told to grow a backbone, or to be seen as more of the abuser, but before I sent My Story I realized there would be some dis-connects because communicating by writing is never as good as face-to -face and really getting to know the person first. And lastly, it would be great for you guys to also sign your name because I did find I had a lot of things I wanted to respond or answer to.

So here goes:

Wayne: You had a lot of good points. Thank you. Yes, I know she doesn't trust me. (I guess her telling me that to my face frequently was my first "clue".) But it wouldn't matter if I flat out cheated on her or kept myself like a hermit in our home, she still wouldn't trust me. I realize WHY she has a hard time with it.........but sometimes I actually think THAT is what keeps me from standing up for myself. I feel terribly sorry for the abuse and betrayal she endured. As her husband, I feel I should just be more compassionate and patient, and then maybe, just maybe......... well you get my point. I realize she has a lot of fears, but what I need to know is....we've been together EIGHT years....when is it her turn to be a little compassionate? How long will she "test" my love? Eight solid years of faithful devotion hasn't been enough?? As far as being tested for fertility problems......we did recently (first round, simple tests).....doctor found absolutely nothing wrong with either of us. (Apparantly he didn't think the 50+ pills she takes per day could be hindering conception) I've done absolutely everything I can possibly think of. Just seems she's always "stressed" or "pooped" or "tired" or "aching" or "pissed". This past weekend we passed a young, female co-worker of mine in the grocery store. I smiled and said "hi". That was it. I heard about it for THREE solid hours when we got home. I am not kidding.

Planettrout: I just don't know how long it took me to walk into the forest. I suppose my whole adult life. You mentioned the book "A New Pair of Glasses". I can pretty much guess what Chuck C's answer was. Maybe something like, "change yourself and you will then see your spouse differently". I have honestly tried to change. Granted there has been numerous starts and stops. But I try to wake up every morning with a good attitude and looking at things more through her eyes. At the risk of sounding like a spineless wimp.......that good attitude I wake up with is often squashed before I even step out of the shower. So I shake it off and start again....then wham!!! I was VERY sensitive as a child (and get told this constantly by her), so I try to take that into consideration and forget it. I have had long drawn out explanations for her behavior both in counseling and reading A LOT on the topic. It doesn't/didn't help any to know the mechanics......and it doesn't make sense to someone who hasn't been through what she has been through. The counselor we saw together turned out to be an abuse survivor herself......and said I seemed to be a very supportive and loving boyfriend (before we married) and I needed to practice patience and "substituting" other things for the things I felt were missing from our relationship. Again, I think I just need to take a compassion pill and chill.

Rissa: Yes, I did have counseling (years ago) with 2 wives......and counseling with this wife too. And counseling alone once for 5 months. Needless to say....here I am again....and more discouraged than ever to try yet another counselor. Mostly now days I just pray for a miracle. I am so out of energy. I guess the one thing a counselor can't give you is your rock bottom. At least I realize (now) that this is an addiction......and if addicts could just up and quit their "habit" then we wouldn't have very many addicts in this world. I know......I just have to get sick and tired of being sick and tired. But like I said earlier.....I'm scared TO DEATH that I am in too deep, deeper than ever........and THATS why it's been 8 years and I'm still here!!!! Seems I get WORSE with time, not smarter....and this truly terrifies me. ANY ENCOURAGEMENT THAT ANYONE COULD GIVE ON THIS PARTICULAR FEAR WOULD BE VERY APPRECIATED!!!!!???? Am I REALLY just getting further away from ever having the courage to stand up for myself and demand better treatment or leave??? Or is this hopeless?

To the 2 people who submitted on Sat. May 11th: I look back sometimes (when I dare go there) at the question my friend asked me before the wedding. God, how I wished I had listened. We had already managed to stay un-married for 7 years....what in the world was I thinking??? Yes, I guess she is sort of like a challenge. I admit I would give almost anything if she would just SHOW her love, not just say the words (which usually has to be prompted anyway). This may seem like a stupid question.....but you know, I have read so many postings on Docs discussion boards lately and obviously see that the majority of abuse is directed at women. And it also seemed like most woman who finally had enough and were filing for divorce were the ones who were physically abused and also had children to look out for. Well I can honestly say she's never physically abused me (unless you count remote controls and sofa pillows flying past your head). She's never laid one hand on me...and we also don't have children....so I guess I'm also thinking that the emotional/mental abuse has been easier to justify/ignore, than visible scars would be and that is yet another reason why I stay. What do you think?

Methinksfree: You said you eventually became drained emotionally. Could you share with me how that evolved? I am (believe it or not) in a management position and have many employees who depend on me to hold it all together. I worry a lot about cracking at work. You also said your husband flipped out when you left. My wife has threatened suicide a couple times, (so upset over an arguement or something that she could hardly speak through the hyperventilating, sobbing and shaking). Right now....even the thought of leaving scares the living hell out me. I admit....I fantasize about her leaving me probably a lot more than I should. What do I do to nurture myself? Oh heck...I don't know. I work out every day and find it keeps me somewhat stable emotionally. I'd rather be shot than have to stop. I also read a lot...that is relaxing. I have many hobbies, but do very little anymore with family or friends. I have a feeling you can guess why.

AJ: I didn't think I was making excuses for her by telling that she was abused as a child and is still angry and hurting from that. I figured that was essential to telling My Story. I know she is responsible for her own happiness.......well my head knows that....my heart hasn't caught up yet I guess. But with her emotional and physical limitations, I guess I figured she's working at her problems about as fast as she can. I wish I could "distance" myself from her for awhile....God how I wish. But if I could, I probably wouldn't have the need to be writing here.

To the person who told me to grow a backbone: You're absolutely right. It's not that I don't know it. But how do I LITERALLY do that without feeling as if I will die? Like I said earlier, if addictions were that easy to walk away from, we wouldn't have many addictions in this world.

To the person who defended me against that comment: Thank you...that was very kind of you. It does sometimes seem like there is more gentle support for woman, than men. I accept that. I know woman are abused far more than men and I hate that. My mom and dad are still married after 52 years. They still hold hands and giggle. My dad taught us boys that there are NO exceptions for abuse. I don't know....maybe I was also taught to not make waves, I truly don't remember.

AJ and Lee K: I agree that just sympathy will not help at all. Granted, as a human, it sure feels good....especially when you feel your emotions are consistently beaten to a bloody pulp. I have a couple die-hard friends who still try occasionally to make me aware of my options, and how I really am not powerless, even though it feels so much so. I find it so strange how (at times ) I want to just lash out and tell them that they do not understand what my wife has been through or what I've been through in previous marriages and all the horrible, long-standing pain and turmoil that was caused spouses and families. I know I am not powerless.....but at the exact same time, I don't think I could bear leaving either. I know it seems weird to know both those things at the same time. It's a paradox that has me VERY confused.

My wife is away on business travel this week. Just talked to her on the phone. Said she was leaving to catch dinner with some girlfriends. She sounded in a very good mood. I told her I've had a weird headache all day....she said "me too" (nothing else). I asked her how she had been sleeping on the hotel bed...she said, "pretty good, nice to not hear you snoring" (then she laughs). We talked a little about an upcoming business trip that I have, what I had for dinner, about the dog chewing up a sprinkler head again......and I then tried (silly me!)...."so what are you wearing"? Dead silence, heavy sigh....then "whatever...I gotta go". And this was an average conversation!!!

Well folks......guess I better shut up for now. I THANK YOU ALL for your responses........your compassion, your advice and your honesty. I hope I hear back from all of you.

Sincerely, Bryan

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Wednesday May 15, 2002

Dear Bryan,

don't worry about starting a discussion, that's what these boards are for more or less anyway :-). You wrote: "AJ: I didn't think I was making excuses for her by telling that she was abused as a child and is still angry and hurting from that. I know she is responsible for her own happiness.......well my head knows that....my heart hasn't caught up yet I guess. But with her emotional and physical limitations, I guess I figured she's working at her problems about as fast as she can. "

It's something a lot of us codependents do: we are just too understanding. It's very sweet of you to understand, but understanding does not mean putting up with abuse towards yourself! That's what I meant to say and I have learned it the ahrd way too, believe me. My H (C) has had a very hard childhood, and had just come from another country with a vastly diferent culture and language to my country to study there. I understaood it was hard for him, I understood he would be sensitive on certain issues, would need time to sort things out. But understanding and excusing his abusive and agressive behaviour did not help him! And it made me feel bad for beeing yelled at and taken for granted etc...

C actually agrees helpig him all the time did not help him at all and says I should have put my foot daown much earlier. People with a difficult youth are sometime like children I guess: they crave boundaries and clearness..... They need to know they are responsable for theirselves even though they may of course ask for help.

Somewhere else in your post you say you are feeling you are only getting worse and getting in deeper. Do you think this might have something to do with being more aware of what is actually happening. Your eyes where more or less closed before, so it owuld be only logical to think things are worse now that that you can see more clear. Also, abusive people have a tendency to get more abusive over the time and continuous abuse leaves you feel drained and very insecure of yourself.

I think you did very well in taking the step of coming here, being open to what others have to say, being open to learning. You do not have to leave ritgh away, you do not have to leave ever, if you don't feel like it. But you do have a right to a more fullfilling live and I understand you would prefer it to happen with her, but changes are huge nothing will change, if you do not start changing yourself. It's not your fault your wife as abused as a child, it is great you are so understanding, but you need to stop putting your wifes needs and wishes always above yours.

Writing will help you distance, will help you get more clear what you need and want yourself. it's a slow process and it's one step forwards, two back some of the time. but in the end we all get there, and my experience is that once you take the first step on this road of selfawareness, there is no turning back. There maybe times you had not taken the first step, caus it is hard work. But beleive me, it is definitly worth it to regrain your sense of Self and have a Life, with or without you present wife.