Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2006. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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December 28, 2005
08:23 PM

Dear Alan......It is nice to see that you are willing to understand why you are doing this......and that you are willing to understand and correct it for yourself......Sorry that it ended a marriage.......I was on the other side of this.....your wife's side.....and I understand what she is going through.....I hope that you will be able to heal and your wife also!!! I think you will be able to reach it with honesty and openness in your heart and soul......Because this is a Soul Searching process....to say the least.....Good Luck.....BeenThereDoneThat

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December 28, 2005
09:17 PM

Myself personally I believe there is a deep seeded rage within people that abuse, and they are unwilling or unable to reach it. Until that rage is found and dealt with, Anger Management and the rest is the start of a band aid that will cover the wound. It will do more good to find out WHY you have this pull to mow over people - especially those you state you love. Unless you find that "WHY" and find ways of acknowledging it and dealing with it - you are just spinning your wheels. It will come up again and again. If it is people or periods of ugly or whatever - you need to place it to rest somehow. People that have hurt you in the past, situations, whatever.. find a way to accept and move on. I think everyone has those - some more ugly than others - some sound small to others that are actually big to us - doesn't make a difference. It affects you and that is all that matters. The anger management and the rest - okay it will help but the bigger issues can't be ignored. After all it isn't an anger problem - it is an abuse problem. Alan you have a big hill to climb. Until you climb that hill and conquer it somehow - your wife will always be scared even if she does give you that second chance you are hoping for. LOL You have to remember its your second chance to you....but is it to her? Your opinion on that matter doesn't count - her's does! Do it and not ask for to much acknowledgement and recognition! At first she really won't care the way you want her to. In time you will not need that, and that is when it will make the difference. Don't look for the difference - it will show itself if it happens. If it doesn't happen, go on anyway. Remember this for you and your life. That internal rage will pop up in the future in a difference circumstance if you don't....it won't be easy and it WILL be a long road! The ending...LOL Well that is up to you no matter what she does!

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December 28, 2005
09:39 PM

Alan, Hi. I'm so glad that you are taking this seriously and that you do want to stop this. I have also been on the receiving end of this and it is very hard. Abuse kills a persons spirit. It puts them into depression, and sometimes depression is the best place you can be when trying to live with someone who is abusive. My biggest problem in my marriage is how my husband always has to blame me for everything wrong in our marriage and everything wrong in his life. I think this is the biggest thing you have to think about. You cannot continue to blame her. The blame thing did not come up in your letter but this is one of the ways you always thought and this you need to change. I really do hope you do the hard work and keep up with it. Best Wishes

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December 29, 2005
12:45 AM

Alan! Come to the Catbox and interact with us. Yes! Go! It's proof in the pudding, Buster. If you're truly interested in healing yourself and your possibilities for a GOOD relationship, you'll stick around and LEARN. If not, then yer just in it for the outcome and have no interest in the journey. IOW, your song and dance has made no impression on me. Am I a tough cookie? No. I'm really not. I look for a genuine soul. If you're sincere, you'll stick around here. You've tugged at Dr. Irene's heartstrings. For the life of me, I don't know HOW you accomplished that. Pfffffffft. Tallulah Oh, Tallulah... I should have known :) (Actually, what Alan needs is both tough and soft. Soft that tows tough lines.)

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December 29, 2005
04:03 AM

Alan .... yeah I tend agree with Tallulah .... I was thinking same thing as I was reading your letter to Dr Irene ......"The proof is in the pudding!" Sorry mate ... but you made you bed & you now lie in it!!!! Work on yourself ....??? yep great ... but you have hurt someone .... live & learn to live with it! NOW you see the light? Maybe you destroyed the batteries of the light for your wife had for you! & that will be her choice ... Read Dr Irene's words again ..."Yes; and you had no sane choice but to give her the space she wanted. Anything else would have been controlling behavior on your part" Sound harsh? Oh yes I totally agree ..... but so is ABUSE! DMC

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December 29, 2005
09:17 AM

Hi Alan- I commend you for facing your demons and wanting to change. There are many, many people who control and abuse who will never even see, let alone admit and want to change, their destructive behavior. Dr. Irene has many, many great articles on her website, read them! Therapy and a 12-step program may also be options. Do it for yourself, and not to get your wife back. The improvements you will make in your own life will be well worth it. Peace, Mandebrotforever

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December 29, 2005
09:33 AM

Congratulation on being willing to work on it! My husband and I are in a similar space. You guys CAN get through it, but it takes big change- from both of you. Your wife needs to know that you WANT this to change, and you support her changes, her doing what it takes to fix it, want to hear her needs, and are willing to change yourself. You're listening. That's great. We found that for my husband, one of the greatest realizations was that it wasn't that he needed not to get angry- though that was true- for his sake, he needed to work on it. For my sake, it was all behaviour. He could get as angry as he wanted and needed- anger is a sign that's something's wrong, and you need to pay attention. BUT, he needed to treat ME well in his anger. That meant respecting my choices, my differences, supporting my decisions, and letting me express my feelings, opinions, thoughts, desires for behaviour changes. And when he was talking to me, it ws okay for him to say "I'm angry" or "I'm upset", but not to pound the walls, to ask for behavior changes, but not demand them, blame me (and seeing blame is HARD). He needed (it's still a journey) to take responsibility for his feelings- I do not MAKE him feel any particular way, and he needs to deal with those feelings by being respectful of ME in the process. He needed to learn to separate to cool down when needed- in short, refuse to rage. Excellent synopsis of a good outcome. Congratulations to you guys! And congratulations to you - because it's too easy for the abused person to become sooooo angry, they will never forgive. Repair of an abusive marriage requires change in both partners. We're still in the process. But it has been so good for him- and so good for me to learn that this kind of behavior is not acceptable to either of us. If you an be on the same team, working on this- your wife on saying, "no, I won't take this", and you on "no, I won't do this", and you can submit yourself to hearing from her and meeting her needs and at the same time, take care of yourself, there's hope. It's hard work, but worth it for both of you.

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December 29, 2005
09:44 AM

Its the need to CONTROL that you need to work on and not so much the anger. Anger is just another way to control. You need to delve into WHY you need to control. I have to agree with Tallulah and DMC - if you're really serious, you'll interact with us on the board. I think its so easy to tell the person you've been abusing AND yourself that you're going to change but more often than not its just another way of controlling the situation. The proof IS in the pudding (banana, by the way, and if you look carefully there are many toes floating around in it). These ladies will certainly be tough on you Alan, and that's OK, because others will be soft. You need both. I hope you join the Catbox. For the record, given my theoretical orientation, while it's important to understand the WHY to give you insight and inner direction, it's paramount to learn the HOW (skills) to change your thoughts and feelings, as well as behavior.

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December 29, 2005
12:47 PM

Alan, I want to believe you, I truly do. But, having lived on your wife's side of the fence, I fear you are only sorry for yourself for having lost the best thing in your life. True, this is huge, but it does nothing for your wife. It doesn't remove any of the scars that you placed there with your raging. She still feels the pain of the jabs you've long forgotten about. Your remorse now is, for her, too little, too late. The pain you're feeling now is only a sample of what she's been feeling for eight long years of torment that she didn't deserve. I hope you meant it when you said you want to change. You need to change those attitudes, regardless of whether your wife comes back or not. Ginger

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December 29, 2005
02:42 PM

Alan, Thank you for your honesty. I am newly married to a man who behaves this way to me. I feel despair when he does not even seem to realize his part in what is happening and how his accusations and ridicule affect me. I try so hard to please him and follow and anticipate his wishes, but it is never enough. He immediately moves past what I have accomplished to what still needs to be addressed or that I perhaps approached completion of the task I was assigned without following the exact specifications I was given. I hope he realizes, before it is too late, how that sparkle in my eye for him is drowning in the tears I am crying daily. Unfortunately, it's unlikely he'll realize it until you've had enough... So do yourSelf and your marriage a favor and try to get there before you become too angry, too crushed. I wish you wellness and success with your reconciliation efforts, or in your next relationship. I bet, like my husband, your behaviors served a meaningful purpose of survival at one time through hurts of your own life before you met your wife. It is sad that those hurts kept you from the happiness you finally had found. Best wishes to you and your wife. SW

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December 29, 2005
03:00 PM

I have a question for you, Alan. My partner emotionally abuses me. She has acknowledged (once) that she has some unrealistic expectations which cause her to get angry with me a lot more than with anyone else in her life. That gave me hope, but I haven't seen much change since then. Any time I try to tell her she's hurting me, she gets very angry that I am "accusing" and "blaming" her. Lately, when I tell her that something she's doing is hurtful to me -- for example, snapping at me, giving me the "cold shoulder" or "silent treatment", looking through a book while we're trying to have a talk, crossing her arms, repeating my name at the end of every phrase -- she says I'm "trying to control her", "trying to control her body", "trying to take away her right to do what she wants with her own body", etc. If I ask her *why* she just did, or is doing, something hurtful, or *why* she is angry, she gets angry and says I am "picking on her" and hurting her. After I started telling her I am afraid of her anger and angry behavior and that I walk on eggs all the time to try to avoid setting off her anger, she started telling me that she is afraid of *me* and my accusations, and that she walks on eggs afraid of what I'll accuse her of next. I know that she is so deep in denial, there's not much hope of getting through to her. But while I know that most abusive people never change, I see people like you, who have woke up to what you were doing and decided to change (yay you!). And of course I think, if some people *do* change, then why can't my partner be one of them? So what was it that caused you to finally hear your wife, and understand what you had been doing? And if there was anything she could have said or done that would have helped you to see yourself before -- years ago -- what would it have been? -- Angi, in pain

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December 29, 2005
03:44 PM

Wow, I want to believe you too! But there is no Santa Claus. I hope that you find some way to make things better in your life... good luck. I am proud of your wife for knowing that she deserves better.

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December 29, 2005
04:55 PM

Hello; I can relate to your story Alan, and at first I thought it was my husband writing. I felt sickened and scared to see what I was seeing. After 8 years of abuse I felt the panic attacks stronger and the need to run for my life in March. That is why I left. I did not feel safe anymore. I still live in fear and intimidation of him, and now I am getting a divorce because his anger keeps pushing me farther away.. I am alone and have lost my home, all my friends, family, and business friends because they believe his lies. They only see the nice funny guy. The intimidation doesn't stop. He still sends me threatening emails and calls my work backline to leave me hateful words. I just hope one day he will see his hate for me and stop trying to ruin my life. I still care for him but his anger towards me is more important to him. Everything and everyone else was more important to him. I was a wonderful loving wife. I laid my life down for him everyday in love and he stomped on it. I don't know if you will ever be able to undo what you have done. The scares are too deep. J Sounds like your H is one of those who will never "get it." :(

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December 29, 2005
06:37 PM

Thank you all for your comments. They have all been insightful – some harder to hear than others, but all necessary. Yes. I guess rather than send a really long e-mail I will be sending comments back over the next few days. You all have such courage in making such huge changes in your life. I first would like to comment to SW and Agni specifically because they are in the middle of trying to save their relationships now. I am so sorry you are being treated the same way my wife was. I don’t know if you have read any of the books Dr. Irene mentioned – please do! There is so much information on setting boundaries. I started with The Verbally Abuse Relationship by Patricia Evans. I think it really helped clarify what I was doing. Although I am fully to blame for all of my actions – I do wish that I saw it this clearly earlier. Possibly you can initiate this in your relationships? Unfortunately we had no boundaries in our relationship so I just kept going as if it was OK to yell. I hate to say it – but I didn’t see it – truly! I was living in a different reality and seeing with different eyes. I was so wrapped up in my own thoughts that I truly never even thought – “I wonder how she is feeling when I do this” I simply thought of it as the way we argued! I never once heard or thought of the word ‘abuse’. Please set your boundaries and tell your husband/wife IMMEDIATELY! If she/he sees how serious you are maybe he/she will start to understand and then you both can take steps to build your happiness again ( that is if its not too late!) If your partner is willing to go to counseling – please find one that specializes in marriage counseling – maybe Dr. Irene or someone else knows more terms of types of councelors? And for J – thank goodness you got out of there. It must have taken so much courage to do what you have done. I see so much courage in my wife for doing the same. You mention that he is sending you threatening e-mails. You can block his e-mails from your account so you don’t get them. I am sure this makes it very difficult for you to move on. I am so sorry for what I have done. Alan I like the empathy you're demonstrating Alan. Excellent!

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December 29, 2005
06:51 PM

Dr. Irene and a few of the others suggested I need to find the “WHY”. I was searching for the “WHY” adamantly for the first week after she left. I really couldn’t understand her feelings yet and once she said “abuse” I started to recognize it. Then the deeper I looked I started to find all of these patterns. Patterns that date back before her, before I was a teenager even. Yes. I started to remember things my parents would say to me like “Your being too sensitive” and “not now Alan” I was constantly being put on hold. I was third born and was always looking for attention but not getting enough. Yes. I bet at some level you felt this was unfair. I am not removing my blame - because I was the one who treated my wife so poorly - I have to live with that and the consequences. What kills me is that I used to constantly tell me wife “Your not listening to me” – guess who I was really talking to .. my parents. Bingo! Although my therapist acknowledged this – he urged me not to concentrate on the WHY I was doing it but would rather that I concentrate on how not to do it again. DO I need a different type of therapy? No. The WHY is consistent with psychodynamic therapies, which in my opinion, have some usefulness especially in understanding yourself and helping you develop important mindfulness skills, but don't get you there unless you somehow manage to find your way. The HOW therapies, the behavioral therapies, get you there. The therapists guides you there instead of letting you flounder. There is evidence-based outcome research supporting behavioral approaches for many problem types. You can't argue with results, and results are pouring in all the time. Unfortunately, old habits die hard - so many counselors are trained in WHY therapies. They don't understand and minimize the HOW approach. They think that unless you do WHY, you're not really doing anything. Having trained both psychodynamically (WHY) and behaviorally (WHY), this is my opinion. Keep in mind that this is an old, ongoing battle between the therapeutic orientations and my statement is way oversimplified. Or is there more to the "WHY" - I will learn more in the weeks to come I do want to get better – I do badly – and I am. I may lose my wife in the process and I will have to accept that. The past 15 days my eyes have opened to a different reality. I have read a few books before these recommendations and am learning a lot of new ways to discuss, listen and behave. Including joining one of the chat groups. I_am_responsible@yahoo.com. They have been very supportive and cut me no slack. It has been the most difficult 15 days of my life since she left. For anyone out there who just thinks they "get in fights" with their mate - please take the time to think about your actions. You may be causing much more damage than you realize. Alan

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December 29, 2005
08:24 PM

Finding the "why" versus concentrating on the "how" (to stop): I think you need to do both. Right. The "third wave" of behavior therapies certainly put more emphasis on the WHY, without compromising the HOW. "Mindfulness" is one powerful technique that, among other things, helps one get to the WHY. Some therapists just focus on the "how", but I think you can only go so far with changing your behavior without getting at the root causes of the feelings behind that behavior. I've certainly found that in my practice as a HOW therapist. For example, if you have a lot of anger, you can learn to "manage" it and not act in abusive ways when angry, and you can learn to not let things get you as angry... but the underlying anger, whatever you're *really* angry about, will still be there. You won't have peace until you face it.

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December 30, 2005
01:00 AM

Here are some responses to Dr. Irene's advice Dr. Irene, this paragraph you wrote really made me shake. "What if my loved one left me? Oh no! I can't give them that kind of power over me, so I'd better not let myself get too dependent on my partner. OK to not let them know how much I really care." Some think if you treat your partner too lovingly, they will end up being taken advantage of, so they never really give of themselves out of fear. Yes...

I remember when we first started dating. Even when I knew I loved her – I could not say it – I chose not to. It was almost as if I was playing a game. This feeling carried with me – I was constantly not showing more love than I thought I should – in fear I guess. Yes. In fear. In terror. I always had a strange feeling – like I wanted to save it all up for that special day or something really stupid like that. The whole time I was holding myself back out of fear? Yes. It sounds so juvenile and stupid. I never understood why I had these strange feelings. Why shouldn't you have them? Your parents kept you wanting, never giving it to you from what you say. So, you grow up thinking that to keep somebody loving you, you have to hold it back from them, or something like that. Your parents modeled behaviors that you learned! And these thoughts and feelings silently lurk in the back of your mind. They run your life, and you don't even realize it because it seems so "normal," like breathing! Becoming more mindful of what is lurking, and overcoming the fear of feeling it, helps you automatically "repair" as well as understand what you have to target.

I'm really in shock. I was such a child – only if I saw how small I was – I would like to go back and tell that kid to “grow up and learn to love his wife like a man.” Please instead tell that child that he had every right to feel as he did. He was not being treated very well. He should hurt! Allow that adult kid to feel the pain and fear of loss. I care for her so much. I took everything for granted. Always I would watch her from a distance and have such love and respect for her. I was always so confused with my actions after a fight. I never understood my behaviour and I wish I clued in that I needed to fix it. I thought I could do it on my own. I really showed myself didn’t I?

Dr Irene wrote: "You may have even thought, at some level, that it was your "job" to steer her." Dr. Irene, you are right again. I thought I knew better and I thought it was my “job” to steer her. What a horrible thing to read and say. I cant believe how controlling I was. Yes, and the funny part is that in your unconscious, unknowing mind, you were doing the best thing for her! Its like a light went off in my head and the mirror is right in front of me. Great! It really is sick and scary. It's pretty common stuff; accept it even though you hate it; feel it; don't deny it. Recognizing this stuff and owning it is the road to change. Im trying not to take it out on myself but its hard. Yes. Please read Wherever You Go, There You Are : Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life by Jon Kabat-Zinn. It will help you get to and accept and face and feel the WHY without judgment. Don't just read this book. Read it in small doses, digest it, re-read it. And most important, practice what it preaches every day. Even 5 minutes a day before you go to sleep each night will help you tremendously over time. I had gruesome behaviour. I never want to repeat it again – I wont. Once you start seeing this stuff, it's hard to go back. But, you will repeat it again, at least inside your head, because there's lots of it in there, and it's OK that you do - because that is how you will find your way out. Then you will get to a point where you think it is all gone, and you will find it operating at more subtle levels. Give yourself time. Love yourSelf enough to give yourself the time you need. Just keep at it.

"Work on yourself, and one day you will be able to tell us what was going on in the back of your mind." This is a hard one. How do I find these answers? Getting to the depth of it all. How does one get to it if its hidden way back? I will read the books – I want to understand it so that I can abolish it out of my brain forever. Alan Besides anything written by Jon Kabat-Zinn, psychology's mindfulness guru (This guy is a PhD of the "evidence-based" school; the techniques work. He has applied mindfulness extensively to pain management; the techniques, born of eastern philosphy, can be applied to anything.), the touchy-feely self-help books will help you get to the WHY - and the Self acceptance.

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December 30, 2005
10:27 AM

Finding the "why" versus concentrating on the "how" (to stop): I think you need to do both. Some therapists just focus on the "how", but I think you can only go so far with changing your behavior without getting at the root causes of the feelings behind that behavior. For example, if you have a lot of anger, you can learn to "manage" it and not act in abusive ways when angry, and you can learn to not let things get you as angry... but the underlying anger, whatever you're *really* angry about, will still be there. You won't have peace until you face it.

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December 31, 2005
12:23 PM

Someone mentioned blame – yes– when I yelled I was accusing or blaming. It was like – when I felt myself get hot - I had to find something that was wrong. I cant believe how easily it would happen and I would have no control at all – I would allow this feeling to come from wherever it came from, turned my eyebrows down and shoot out my mouth until the walls shook. Even a few times I started hitting the steering wheel or the dashboard – I had no control over me – only wanted control over her. Good for you for seeing this! I am so ashamed by what I did. It was so horrible for her – for so many years too. I am glad she had the courage to step out. I recently looked in the mirror and tried to recreate that face. It was scary –horrifying - I couldn’t look at myself anymore. Very cool! Therapists sometimes use video cameras to help their clients see this stuff! Even up until before she left – I wanted to control where she was going. I thought if she returned home than she might realize how good we had it here. This was only 20 days ago! I feel so absurd and horrible. I don’t know how I didn’t see this clearly. I get sick to my stomach everyday thinking about it. I have been told be the group that dealing with it is part of the process. It hurts bad – but I cant imagine how bad it is for her. Again, I like the empathy. Make sure you have empathy for yourself as well. I am so sorry for what I have done, I'm in the middle of reading Lundy Bancroft's book - it makes my insides wretch thinking that he is describing me in parts of this book. Alan This guy is good. Take a look at his website: http://www.lundybancroft.com/

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December 31, 2005
02:12 PM

My wife e-mailed me after seeing the site and the posts. She said that she was hurt that I wasn't honest enough with what I have done to her. Ever since she left I have been keeping a list each time I recall or am reminded of my horrible abusive behaviour. It is a really long list so I don't know if it will post - but I feel I need to admit these horrible things. Tomorrow will be a new year and I would like to remind myself of these atrocities so that I never do them again.

What I did to her • Made fun of her for not wanting to play for points – a power over attitude • Everything I said up until now was the wrong way of thinking – I was always trying to win – I always felt I had the right to be THAT angry • When planning out life goals I would demand her to let me know where we are going – every semester it seemed like I was demanding this – as if I was waiting for her to decide for us and my life was on hold because of it. • I became stuck on verbage and angry when she said words she didn’t mean • my wife asked a few times if she was crazy – I immediately thought no – but actually pondered this fear as coming from her family • I was always telling her “Your not listening to me” – this was a manipulation to let her know that what she was telling herself was false – incidentally I always said this to my mother growing up • my wife would feel inadequate when she cried – when she was young her father told her it was wrong – I started telling her she is crying too much • I remember my wife getting upset because we were fighting in the car and then I had to “turn it off” because a student was approaching – this became fake • If I was angry – I sometimes gave her looks or became frustrated with her in public – this must have been totally embarrassing for her – especially if she thought other people were watching – how horrible this must have been • When everything was fine with her I might start in on something and come out of nowhere – this must have totally taken her by surprise – shocked her and continued to damage her system • Sometimes shell ask me what's wrong and instead of engaging with her – Ill just say “Its too complicated “ and Ill say it really short, and cut off any continued conversation – I see now how much that would hurt - and how conceited that was • I asked her to be in control of the budget and then when she started doing it – as soon as she had a question I would get angry and frustrated that she doesn’t know – this would cause her to not want to do it anymore • When she would ask if we could buy something – in the past I would just buy it and say no problem – lately every time she asks I get upset because I don’t want the responsibility of making that decision – I would rather her be in charge of the finances so she wouldn’t have to ask my permission • I remember if I was in a bad mood – jumping on her when she asked an innocent question – like “can I help” – I cant believe how many times I beat her down with words – this is horrible • I remember often that I would get more upset when she would “rebuttle” what I am talking about – this would cause me to get angrier and want to continue arguing – I wonder if my advice to her was actually right – if she would not stoop to my reality then there would be nothing for me to continue my ranting about • When we were walking home from the a bar – she was expressing to me that she didn’t get a good sense that this friend was a good man to his family. Rather than respecting my wife’s opinion I tried to convince her that she was wrong and was being judgmental. This was also after she didn’t even want to be at the party in the first place. • Not giving my wife respect enough to share Christmas in our house - for some stupid reason that I felt uncomfortable with a holiday I didn't grow up with • I was constantly impatient – if she was taking to long in the bathroom and I wanted to start the DVD – I would say ““Im starting the DVD without you…” Getting ready for work would always be so stressful. “where’s my keys, wallet etc.” “Hurry were going to be late” “I guess its too late for breakfast ( almost as if it was her fault) • WITHHOLDING – not sharing or conversing with your partner – I thought I shared with her? – sometimes I would have a lot on my mind and be thinking about what I was going to say next – OR want to jump in on the conversation and not have the patience of letting her finish • Sometimes when I would yell I would go over and shut the window – this shows that part of me did know that I was doing something wrong that nobody else should hear • I controlled every decision – up until the flight home – I didn’t want her to go to her friends in fear that she would become taken away by their religion – I felt safer with her parents – but at the same time thought that she would feel comfortable and be able to remember the good in us. – I always wanted to be in control – I don’t want it anymore – I give up all control of everybody from now on • When I would be yelling I would try so hard to get my “point” across that I would continually repeat myself – by the end she would be so exhausted that she would just nod her head and say OK – the look in her face was that of a worn down woman – I did this to her – then I would get angry that she was feeling this way because I didn’t think I could do that to someone – so I immediately thought – no your thinking about it wrong ! It was bad - really bad • I said I loved her but didn't treat her with love • Sometimes I would call her and ask her what she is doing – if she didn’t sound like she was working on something I would get annoyed that I have to work so hard and she could go for walks, talk on the phone etc. I never gave her enough equality and respect that she can make her own decisions of how to spend her time. • I would become frustrated when she was on the phone – I really was threatened when she want giving me the attention • Making my wife feel like this “There were many times that I drove with you in the car, you yelling at me .(even before school).. I had to stop talking because I was in shock. I cried.. and you never cared enough to notice. It was all about your control. No kidding I wanted to die. My 'best friend' was silently killing me.- toxic • I was angry too many times – too often – sometimes several times a month – even several times a day • We didn’t have fights – they were attacks – from me – a few times it would get so bad that my wife would be hyperventilating – she says she felt like dying – why didn’t I do anything about it? • Not cherishing my wife like I promised in our vows • She mentioned abuse 5 years ago – it was an ugly word – I didn’t take it seriously – we could have seen it then and stopped it - why didn’t I see it? It took my wife leaving to actually see it – that is so pathetic • Watching my wife hurt – stripping her spirit, soul, dignity, ego, - all from the sound of my yelling • Yelling at my wife while she was trying her best to find us a house to rent – all I could think about was me – and the stress of my job – and not giving her the respect to make her own decisions • Nagging her in the kitchen – when she painted – when she didn’t paint – always had to say something to bring her down • Not respecting her morals to do the best she could no matter what. • Having a terrible attitude • Being a bully • Not treating her as an equal • Yelling at my wife two nights before our wedding day • Calling her “too sensitive” • Telling her what to say on the phone This behaviour is disgusting. I will NEVER repeat these mistakes for as long as I shall live. Alan

EXCELLENT! Here's an exercise for you: Go back to each point you made. Figure out how you would handle the situation now - knowing what you know now. Take your time with this and pay attention to your thoughts and feelings, especially what resentments pop. Find a way to log all this. By the way, it's OK to have anger and the resentments. Feel it; don't deny it. Most of your anger will "old stuff." But sit with it and you will find that some of it will be valid and based on the current situation. Try to distinguish between the two. Current-day anger is a healthy internal signal. You will need to learn how to use that information to assert yourself in healthy ways (vs. acting out behaviorally).

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January 01, 2006
02:49 AM

Alan, I am exhausted reading your last e-mail, because I feel the exasperation your wife felt. I love reading your posts. I am constantly striving for the "why" in my husband. Tonight is New Years eve and my husband went to bed screaming because the garbage wasn't taken out and I should have eaten the left overs. He tries to control every aspect of our lives and if he can't control us (myself and two children) he yells to gain control. My son (12) went to bed tonight and I said, "Happy New Year" and he said, "how can it be happy with dad yelling". This was heart wrenching and a wake up call for me. I have been married to him for 15 years and he has been abusive verbally for all of them. I sat crying because it is New Years Eve and I am sitting alone in a secluded world. He chases people away with his anger and we don't invite people over because he embarrasses us with yelling or rude comments. Friends eventually stop calling or visiting. I left him once and he did get anger management counseling. He is back to his old self. He feels he has every right to act in such a way. I am intrigued with your posts, because you I really want to know - can you honestly say you had "no idea" you acted so badly at the time? I want to understand his mind. I can honestly say I am emotionally divorced and it is only a matter of time before I take the same steps as your wife did. I for whatever reason have a tiny shred of fight in me to save our marriage. I now call him on his behaviors and call it as I see it. I am brutally honest with the kids regarding his behavior and make no excuses for him. They need to know it is wrong. They are now confronting him lovingly as well. If he does not see the truth soon, we will have to give up on him. Maybe that is the only way he will really believe it. Happy New Year! LuAnn

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January 01, 2006
03:10 PM

LuAnn I am terribly sorry for what you are going through. It must be so frightening for you – especially for your children. As I read more about verbal/emotional abuse I get so scared as to where it might have gone if my wife hadn’t had the courage to take such a giant step. I also have to correct myself from a previous e-mail. My wife pointed out this to me. I said I started to realize what it was when she said “abuse”. In fact it took her leaving AND saying it was “abuse” for me to realize the depth of it all and how serious it really was. She reminded me that she brought up “abuse” about 5 years ago when she was working for a therapist. When she told me I did remember her saying that and not thinking there could be any way that that was us. I feel so angry towards my attitude for not doing anything about it. I am ashamed of what I didn’t see. This is my reality and the answer I can give you. I don’t know about your husband, but I am in a state of shock right now. It is if a floodgate has opened up and I am seeing face to face what I have done. My wife’s epiphany allowed her to see how horrible my behaviour/attitude was. I am glad she kept communicating with me – or else I would still be thinking that she just had a “breakdown”. I can tell you honestly that I had no idea how severe my behaviour was. I really only thought – “well this is how we argue”. I come from a family where yelling is the norm and no one openly cherishes their wife in the way we should. I never even considered her feelings – I thought I did – but now I realize I was only considering how I thought she would feel. All the decisions I would make were about how I saw it – it was all control. And I think when you're living in that reality, you believe it to be true!. God – if I could have only stopped for one second – actually watched my wife crying, trembling sometimes, I would have possibly realized – HEY –THIS IS VERY WRONG _ STOP IT NOW! NEVER DO IT AGAIN! Unfortunately that never happened. So I am paying the consequences for not waking up before she did. It doesn’t sound like your husband is willing to change – if he has already gone though an anger management program, and you are constantly setting your boundaries – matter of factly with him and not “entertaining” his reality, then I don’t see anything else you can do. I think this should be advice more from a Dr. though. I assume you guys are going to marriage counseling? Hope that helps? Alan

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January 01, 2006
03:39 PM

I am brutally honest with the kids regarding his behavior and make no excuses for him. They need to know it is wrong. They are now confronting him lovingly as well. If he does not see the truth soon, we will have to give up on him. Maybe that is the only way he will really believe it. Happy New Year! LuAnn LuAnn why don't you give your kids a real new years and open your phone book and call the nearest Domestic violence Center and get your kids away from him. The only thing you are teaching your kids by staying is how to be abusive themselves!!!!!!!!!

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January 01, 2006
08:38 PM

Alan- 3 months ago, I left my wife of 24 years, taking our teenager daughter with me. My daughter and I had both put up with years of control, and verbal and emotional abuse, and neglect. Years of marriage counseling, and psychiatric and spiritual help did nothing to change her behavior. I was very blunt about the consequences. I told her in every possible way that we would leave unless she stopped. When we finally left, she acted like it was a shock, and she didn't see it coming. While we are in the process of the divorce, she keeps trying to convince me to reconsider. What she doesn't even see, is that she is using the same tactics of control and manipulation to try and get me to reconsider. So now, I don't even take her calls. Please don't make this mistake in your situation. If you really can change, and are willing to eat dirt (Gee, I don't see it as "eating dirt." More like owning your stuff!) and get help, and she is willing to come back, that's great. But don't try to talk her into it. All you can do is make the changes you need for yourself, whether or not it wins her back. If she sees the changes, and comes back because it's her idea, then you might have a shot. But be prepared that it may not happen. Once someone is fed up enough to leave, well, she could be like me... past the point of no return. I hope for the best for both of you; as individuals first of all. You are on the right track by facing the hard truth of your behavior. You have to come to a place of peace within yourself before you can have a peaceful relationship with anyone else. Good luck! :) Jef

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January 01, 2006
11:00 PM

Alan, I am glad you are in enough pain to want to understand what your behavior has done to your wife and your marriage. You can work things out if you will work hard in counseling and believe what you hear. Your actions will speak louder than your words if your wife see's that you are truly trying to understand your behavior and its affects on your wife. Abuse does kill the spirit of a person. Find out what happened in your childhood that is keeping you in this need to control. My ex abused me for 23 years, very covertly. I had no idea until divorce that I was experiencing so many physical and emotional affects of this abuse. Then I watched my daughter experience young abusive men in her life, typical in marriages where she watched how I was treated and I did not have appropriate boundaries. She and I are both in counseling and it does work. You have to believe what the experts tell you about yourself and the abusive behavior. It may be too late but you will learn and become more in tune with your behavior which will lead you to a very rich relationship even if it will not be your current wife. She has her own work to do, too, so that she doesn't attract another abuser in her life. You see, we all have work to do in the abusive relationships. There is some reason why we stay in the abuse. Not a good thing. I hope you will make a good commitment to counseling; 3-5 years. You will be glad you did. My ex still today does not take any responsibility for his abusive nature. He's is just the "nice guy", and as far as he was concerned I was so lucky to have him in my life. Wont even do the work for his daughter's sake. Really sad. Respect yourself enough to get the help. Take care!

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January 02, 2006
06:39 PM

Alan, Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I am in a similar situation I believe. Although my Wife hasn't yet left, she is struggling to deal with her co-dependency. We co-habitate now, a far cry from the marriage we once had. I owe most of the blame to my angry, controlling behavior. I am just starting to realize that I am the "causer" of most of our issues. I have a few issues that are different from yours however the overall scope is very similar, and I want to find ways to deal with these issues and learn to accept me and her for who we are and allow u to work in unison and improving ourselves, thus improving our relationship, if it isn't already too late. It seems that this is a very common problem and I am hoping to receive information and resources that will help me to understand these habits and how to deal with and grow away from them. I hope I am not asking too much of any of you and hope that the more educated of you is able to offer sincere help. I really want to give my Wife the husband she deserves. Thanks, Greg H

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January 02, 2006
08:26 PM

Hello Alan, Glad to read your words and glad for your wife finally, to find the voice where you can hear her words too. I had to read your letter deeply because your situation is similar to mine and my husbands, (in the timeframe anyhow.) He and I had married this last March and have been together off and on 8 years. However, we are seeking separate counseling and even though I have a separate apartment he is still controlling by not giving me the time to breath that I so desperately need. Because of his lack of allowing me the freedom to heal and the space to heal and to give me time to build trust for him again, I am in contact with a divorce lawyer. Even though he is in counseling and I want to believe him, his actions speak louder than words. I would like to encourage you to continue to allow your wife her space and for her to explore her own reality without any advice or discouragement from yourself. It really sounds that you are in a place of respect, (although hard on yourself, my husband is brutally hard on himself too yet, he will not stop asking me to just basically 'erase' it and give him a clean slate). I wish you the best in building trust with your wife and even if you both end up separate truly do consider what you are trying to do as elevating both her and you to a much healthier place. Alan, thank you for sharing and thank you also for allowing me to respond as this was helpful for me very much. Good luck to your wife also. J.

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January 02, 2006
10:17 PM

Greg, My wife leaving was the hardest thing in the world for me to accept. I had no choice and if I did I probably would have asked her to stay to work it out. I don’t know how that would have turned out, however, I do know that the distance that we have has been a blessing in disguise. I didn’t clearly see how much hurt my wife was in until she was able to get her own space. All the emotions came out – hurt, anger, fear, pain – as she remembered every incident – she told me in whatever way possible ( phone calls, e-mails – and believe me they aren’t fun to endure – but it was much worse for her to experience it over the past 8 years). I can tell you it hurt more than anything in my life, but I am so lucky to have a wife like her to share her experience with me.

If she left and never said a word I would be totally lost, and probably in denial right now thinking that it was just a “breakdown”. I “woke up” ever since I took the “abuse” seriously. I have learned/read more in the past 18 days than I thought I could – It became a full time job to understand what I have done. All the information is out there Greg – go after it – read Dr. Irene’s pages and her book recommendations. They are helping immensely! Although the pain of this loss will not go away – I feel a renewed strength with this knowledge. I know I can change it with time and patience. In the grand scope of our lives a few years is nothing to turn me into a better person! Find a counselor to help guide you and read, read, read ( take lots of notes to – your studying to get your life back! Work hard!) PS –Last night my wife called to let me know she wasn't angry - mostly hurt – her emotional scars are deep – hearing her voice again fuelled me to work hard for the entire year of 2006! I will become a better person. Alan :)

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January 02, 2006
11:46 PM

J – I don’t know if you wanted a response so ignore if you don’t. The timeframe is really close. We were married in July! And we have been together for 9 years! I cant tell you how your husband thinks, but I can try and give some perspective of how I thought. The idea that I was being controlling didn’t come easy to me. It’s ridiculous when I look at it now because it was so obvious. At the time however, I was only stuck on what I wanted. Not consciously though. See, I thought I was a ‘good guy’ and looking out for the best interest of my wife: making sure our lunches were ready in the morning, reminding her constantly about stuff, paying attention to bills and bank statements, planning our trips, choosing the movies, cooking OR watching her cook if I couldn’t.

To me it was my “way of caring” – now that my eyes have opened - total crap! :) I was being my mother. A little of my brother too. I was youngest of three boys and always was watched, told what to do and often a scapegoat. As I educate myself I am starting to recognize the patterns and it makes it easy to see where I was totally wrong and allows me to clearly see how to fix it. After talking to my therapist today we agreed that it would take some time to eradicate my behaviours as I have been used to them for so many years ( and grew up in the same environment). However it is possible and that’s what will keep me going to succeed. Point of all this I guess is – maybe the light switch hasn’t gone off in your husband yet. It seems he is doing the right things, therapist, working hard – but who knows what the therapist is telling him. Dr.Irene’s website was an eye opener for me. Reading the experts take gave me an understanding on what my wife was going through AND what I was doing. It made it human and I could accept that. Reading the stories from other experiences let me understand that our situation wasn’t the only one. Along with the intense reading, note taking and therapy it all started to click. I don’t know if this helps, but maybe your husband is trying but just not finding the right resources.. OR maybe he really doesn’t want to succeed ( or doesn’t know what the stakes are) Happy New Year Alan

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January 03, 2006
01:03 AM

Alan, Hi again, I'm the one that brought up the constant blaming before. I can see from your responses that you are really trying and I am very proud of you for that. You seem to be getting a lot of insight into this and it must be very overwhelming for you at this point. The only way though to make a change is constant awareness. A trip to the therapist every 2 weeks isn't going to do it. It needs to be something you do daily. So far, you are doing the work. I really do hope you keep it up. A lot of us here have given up any hopes for the marriage, but that does not stop us from trying to help someone that wants to change. I just thought that once in awhile you might need a little encouragement. Amy

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January 03, 2006
08:30 AM

I sure wish my husband would come to this realization! No hope for that, as far as I can see. TK

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January 03, 2006
05:14 PM

I just finished reading Dr. Irene's recommendation Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. I took many notes and recognized where I could apply my own behaviours at times. However I was confused about a few things. He mentions that abusers have tactics and seldom change - if I understood him right than all my abuse was intentional. At the time, your abuse was intentional in that it accomplished its purpose of shifting blame, etc. Whether or not you were aware of it is another story. Furthermore, recognize that not all abusers are the same. The psychological components vary and the severity of those components vary. We don't yet understand who changes and who doesn't, let alone how to classify/diagnose the abuser, though the direction you're going in tells me you are on excellent footing and have the capacity to change. Go for it!

I understand what I have done and see the damage and I am taking responsibility for it. I am struggling with the notion that I abused my wife intentionally. Although, no one else was making me do it - I always saw it as "reacting" - (very poorly) and not seeing how she felt. I don't remember thinking about how I was going to abuse her next. Am I understanding this wrong? Yes. Just because it was unconscious/unintentional does not take away from the fact that you did it and it accomplished its purpose. You have to take responsibility for that and not get caught up here. Don't judge; you did the best you knew how to do at the time. He also mentions that abusers rarely change - this scares me. Rarely change is different from never change. That abusers rarely change is what the research suggests, but then again, we don't have nearly enough research in this relatively new field, nor do we know what type of abuser changes and doesn't change, so don't go there. You ARE changing. That's all you need concern yourself with.

I feel I am changing and desperately want to eradicate any abusive attitude/behaviour that I have. It took me this long to see everything that I have done to my wife - I am just worried that if it took me this long, then part of me is still blocking my ability to change without me knowing it - how can I tell? I promise you that is happening; it is a normal part of the process. Being mindful of yourself will help you uncover this, as will feedback from your therapist, your wife, and anybody else who you've behaved poorly towards. Bancroft also writes " I have yet to meet an abuser who has made any meaningful and lasting changes in his behaviour toward female partners through therapy - when he is finished he will be a happy, well-adjusted ABUSER" he then suggests the only method is an abuser program. That is his opinion. That's like saying you can't fix alcoholism without AA, which is simply not true. The reality is that we don't know enough yet, in my opinion, to make blanket statements. Work this one out individually with your therapist.

I'm having a hard time trusting my own judgments right now. Excellent! The ground is being shifted from under you; of course you don't trust your judgments now! That you feel this way is an excellent sign that you are changing. Excellent!

I want to rid my abusive behaviours - so I guess the abuser program is the next step. I am in therapy twice a week - should I stop? No! You talk to your therapist. Even if you do an abuser program, there is no reason why you can't remain with your therapist. If you continue working as you have, you may not need a program. Has anyone had any experience with these programs? I have read that I should look for an "Emerge-model" or Duluth model program. Thoughts, Advice? Alan Advice: print this whole thing out and bring it to your therapist. Deal with your anxiety and recognize that you don't have to answer all these questions today - and doing so will be part of your recovery.

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January 03, 2006
06:34 PM

Alan, I think I think "most abusers don't change" is intended as a piece of reality for people who are hoping their partners will change. Also you should take that as forewarning that change is HARD. Do you want it badly enough to see it through, no matter how hard it gets? Only you can answer that question. Most abusers ultimately don't. But you don't have to be like most abusers. The choice is entirely yours.

"The choice is yours..." Yes Alan, it is. And you are in a great space and direction. You will have doubts; you will have fears, and it is OK to have them. Feel the feelings, don't react. Things are going well; there is no reason to jump any guns here even though you may feel like it. Impulsivity is part of what you want to curb.

Dear Readers, feel free to continue chatting here, or, of course, take it to the CatBox. Many thanks to each and every one of you for your great feedback and support of Alan - including those of you who are "tough" on him! :)

May God bless you and yours and may your 2006 be the best year ever for you and your family. Dr. Irene, January 5, 2006.

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January 06, 2006
08:34 AM

Alan, This is not going to be an easy process. You will have these creepy feelings for a very long time. It is part of the change. You are wanting relief. The only way to get it, is to do the work. Trust me, I have been on the other end of the abuse, but I am hear to tell you, the abuser can be successful and have a fabulous relationship, if he will commit to the work. It's like trying to diet, you have to stick with it for years. Stay with your therapist despite the other work that you do. Keep a balanced life. Find a good male friend to support and encourage you. One who can truly be honest and loving. Start eating and exercising, cause this will help release good nurturing to you. You probably dont have very good self care right now, cause you dont think you deserve it, but you do. Make sure your therapist is qualified and skilled in the areas of abuse. I dont support my ex anymore cause he didnt and doesnt today, want to see his ways. But, I will support and encourage the abuser, if I see he truly accepts responsibility. Most people will. Take care, and keep writing, it will move you forward.

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January 06, 2006
05:00 PM

Well Thank you again for all the great comments and advice. Dr. Irene your experience shines! I am re-reading all of your comments and everyone else’s several times. I am finding that as I progress – digress – regress - and progress through this – I am able to look at certain sentences and really start to understand them and relate to what is happening to me. Logically I think I understand most of it – but I am starting to notice when it has effect by the way the words have an impact on me. I think it means I’m starting to change. I see my therapist twice a week, chat on the I_am_responsible@yahoo.com message board several times a day ( they are great – soft that tow tough lines!) and I am slowly going through all of the book recommendations. I have started to eat well and exercise. The last writer picked up on my emptiness – but I am taking care of my body figuring that it will keep my mind healthy to be able to sort all of this out. Keeping busy seems to work most of the time. Mornings and sleep is the worst. I really feel the isolation now. I think the shock is wearing off and its getting harder and harder to focus. It hurts badly - worse than I imagined. I am sure this is all part of the process. I want to call my wife and tell her how sorry I am, tell her that I am changing and tell her to be here. However, I know I cant do this. I need to experience this alone for myself and she needs her time to make her own decisions. It is just hard to be alone. On the other hand, I am starting to feel scared for the possibility that my wife may reconsider and come back at some point. More than anything I want to be with her again, however, I don’t want to be as I was before. I sense my behaviours changing but I guess I wont know until I have the relationship to test it in. This gives me fear and uncertaintly, almost like someone watching a film that is only in progress and forming an opinion on it. Im am starting to understand more of the WHY. I am remembering parts of my growing up more and seeing the patterns develop. I can feel the angry/resentful kid inside of me. Yesterday I became frustrated at something – I sat with it for a while and then realized there was nothing I could do about the situation. However, the heat was still there. So I tried something new that my therapist recommended–I told myself that I am 30 years old and that I don’t need to react. The feeling went away! It was incredible to be able to control this feeling and not allow it to continue! A little later when I had the space - I did as Dr. Irene recommended and I told the “kid” that it’s OK that he was feeling the way he was. I sat with it and cried, and cried some more. Thank you for the advice – I can tell its working. Thank you all for your insight and encouragement. I am sorry to hear that some of you have relationships that are beyond repair. Hopefully you are finding strength in your own work. Your words and experience have helped me in more ways than you may know Sincerely, Alan

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January 07, 2006
05:51 AM

Hi Alan, J here. Clearly after the last few days I can see that there is not chance left with my husband, at all. He went over the top and his work with the counselor seems more to have been aimed at being ammunition for him to continue fighting with me. Hours on end...Yet, relentless. He called the other day at 2:45 in the morning, (he knows that I will answer the phone in my sleep AND, i didn't turn it off). He did a jekyll and Hyde manuever from his earlier conversation which had started off nicely but ended with him manipulating the heck out of me. Now I can clearly see how innappropriate he was and he escelated to the point where I have gone true No CONTACT. I got a police escort to get the last of my things out of our apartment. I do not know how he got the landlords to lock me out, (the police said that was a major no no and that it was my address and they cannot lock me out). Yet, even though the landlords told me he was crazy and he left them many messages, they refused to let me in without the police. Not every abuser who goes to counselling is seeking to truly work on themselves, Alan, unlike what you are experiencing. Many only do it as a ruse to keep a connection to their victim and to prolong their manipulation. Glad to end his/my cycle. J, (jennifer) p.s. best wishes for you and your wife

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January 07, 2006
10:31 PM

Alan, I was the one who wrote about eating healthy and working out. You see, you do need to feel the pain of aloneness, cause you have been in a relationship that was unhealthy. It doesnt matter which side of the relationship, abuse or abuser, we all have to go through the same steps to heal. It is almost the same work for both parties. You do have to spend alot of time alone, so that you get to know who you really are. You may even go through some Post Traumatic Shock Syndrome PTSS, before it is over. It is unbelievealbe that you would find yourself in this situation but it happens, alot, in relationships, unfortunately. Our lives are very parallel sometimes. That is why therapists know us long before we ever hit the counselor chair. They see these patterns of behaviors all the time. It is actually healing to know that they already know us, cause they actually can make us feel better that we arent alone in this madness. You are not alone, and neither is your wife. I hope she is on this site and is learning both sides of the abusive relationship. I applaud your efforts, once again, cause I found this site and tried to get my ex to see that I dont blame him for his past behavior, I just became privy to the knowledge that we both had significant childhoods/past experiences that helped create our unhealthiness. If we both would have done the work, we probably could have had a fabulous, honest, and open relationship and been freed up from all of the weight that was on us long before we realized it. But I respect that it was going to be too painful for him to uncover all of those buried hurts/pains so I moved on without him, his choice. He is not moving forward at all. It is very sad. He is so numbed out, and it is hurting all of his relationships. Sounds like you are making a different choice. You have to do your own work. You need to focus on you and go through all of the stages to recover and heal from this unfortunate awareness. But day by day you will free yourself up from the pain. It will be lifelong work, but it gets easier, and you will slip at times, but keep it up. I have been at it for 4 years. I have learned, applied and accepted the things I could not change and life became so much better. I think I can empathize cause when you describe your feelings, I was right there, too. I never thought I would ever smile again, or feel like living fully. But, I am hear to tell you with a lot of work, honesty and getting real with yourself, you will be amazed where it will get you. My relationship in my marriage was so painful, I didnt even want to think about dating or marriage again. I am here to say, that I am in a healthy relationship today, and it is so completely different than the codependent, abusive relationship I was in. It is a choice. Trust me, you want to experience a good one. I shared my painful story to two 90 year old neighbors, who were so kind to me, and they just laughed that I thought life was over. My head and my heart couldn't match up, then. Now I laugh at myself for believing that life could really be over. Grow from the experience and commit to the long haul. You will reap what you sow. Keep getting it out. It is moving you forward. For all of you out there on both sides, do the work. Just do the work. It pays off. It takes a while to just get it. You cannot trick this crazy stuff. You have to go through it and hit it head on. Think spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and physically. No short cuts. I wish all of you peace. Make this the best year of your life. It is a choice.

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January 08, 2006
08:57 PM

Hello, This post is for the person who responded last, about working out and exercise and how it is necessary to have alone time. I do not want to SKIP any steps and probably have a dumb question. Even though I had been living apart from my husband since the end of August and have had limited contact with him, our true and final separation with no contact for good started this Jan 4th. Yes, I feel the pangs of lonliness and even though they are familiar since these last few months they are new, (because they are the final ones and I know this.) Well, I am worried because I am about to adopt a "rescue" cat who had been abused and abondanded. See, even though I had been considering adopting a cat since September, (I have been without one for 9 years) I am a little afraid that this may interfere with my 'alone' time for recovery. Okay, am I just thinking stupid here? I mean, she is an adorable 5 year old cat that needs a loving home and someone to spoil her. I have a nice new apartment and would love to welcome her. I am trying to be rational here and know that I have longed to adopt a cat again for some time, and that the time is right, I found her through the rescue site, met her at the house that is fostering her, met her foster owners. Basically I also know that as much as I want to offer her, (especially with the whole abuse bond) I know that the companionship and sweetness that she will give me is alot, (now I wonder if I am being selfish). Aggh. Okay, okay, I think it is not displacing the lonliness but, that it IS a positive way to share my life and that I am at a place and time in my life where I am especially prong to appreciate it more than ever. Thanks for reading all this prattle! Jennifer B

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January 09, 2006
11:34 AM

Dr Irene and others, I am feeling hurt Most of my days since my wife left have been filled with sorrow and fueled by the need to get better – fix myself and my attitude and rid my abusive behaviours. The other day while reading through my wife’s recent e-mails I realized that I was being blamed for actions that I did not do. Originally, when I read them I passed them off because I only wanted to listen and hear her hurt and anger. However, these issues keep coming up and I feel I need to voice myself in fear that I don’t lose whatever integrity I have left. I don’t know if this is the right thing to do but I need to voice this concern. My wife claims that I allowed myself to be a target for other females. This hurts me deeply. My wife has been the only woman in my life since we met in college. We spent 2 years apart and for 3 years living together up until or marriage and now. I have only thought, lived, breathed and loved one woman since I met her. Even when I was on my own and had other females proposition me I refused. I only thought of a life together with my wife ( girlfriend at the time). I made life altering decisions with her and it made me and brought me to where I am today. I know she is filled with only hurt from the abuse right now and I don’t know if I have any business defending anything right now. I can accept that I had no control over my abusive behaviour towards her – which she may never get over. It hurts me deeply that she is altering my values in her pain and I fear that this is helping her to get over me. My wife also has a deep resentment for my family. She says we have too many differences and says now that she always felt this way from the beginning but never voiced it. She claims that there were people at our wedding that were only there because they were important people like Dr’s and Lawer’s – this just isn’t true either. I fear she is taking this out on me as well. I have no control over other people and how they choose to be. I wish she would have come clean to tell me everything that she felt so that I could have had a chance to change or find a solution. She is looking back at every experience we have ever had and tarnishing it – this hurts me beyond belief – because I can look at pictures and video and see she was happy, in love – saying words to me that she meant at the time. Am I reacting to something I shouldn’t? I have only been compelled to apologize and work on myself – these feelings I don’t know what I can do about. She is looking for divorce papers now and I don’t think there is anything I can do. Alan

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January 09, 2006
11:40 AM

Dr Irene and others, Most of my days since my wife left have been filled with sorrow and fueled by the need to get better – fix myself and my attitude and rid my abusive behaviours. The other day while reading through my wife’s recent e-mails I realized that I was being blamed for actions that I did not do. Originally, when I read them I passed them off because I only wanted to listen and hear her hurt and anger. However, these issues keep coming up and I feel I need to voice myself in fear that I don’t lose whatever integrity I have left. I don’t know if this is the right thing to do but I need to voice this concern. My wife claims that I allowed myself to be a target for other females. This hurts me deeply. My wife has been the only woman in my life since we met in college. We spent 2 years apart and for 3 years living together up until or marriage and now. I have only thought, lived, breathed and loved one woman since I met her. Even when I was on my own and had other females proposition me I refused. I only thought of a life together with my wife ( girlfriend at the time). I made life altering decisions with her and it made me and brought me to where I am today. I know she is filled with only hurt from the abuse right now and I don’t know if I have any business defending anything right now. I can accept that I had no control over my abusive behaviour towards her – which she may never get over. It hurts me deeply that she is altering my values in her pain and I fear that this is helping her to get over me. My wife also has a deep resentment for my family. She says we have too many differences and says now that she always felt this way from the beginning but never voiced it. She claims that there were people at our wedding that were only there because they were important people like Dr’s and Lawer’s – this just isn’t true either. I fear she is taking this out on me as well. I have no control over other people and how they choose to be. I wish she would have come clean to tell me everything that she felt so that I could have had a chance to change or find a solution. She is looking back at every experience we have ever had and tarnishing it – this hurts me beyond belief – because I can look at pictures and video and see she was happy, in love – saying words to me that she meant at the time. Am I reacting to something I shouldn’t? I have only been compelled to apologize and work on myself – these feelings I don’t know what I can do about. She is looking for divorce papers now and I don’t think there is anything I can do.

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January 09, 2006
11:41 AM

The previous message is from Alan by the way

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January 09, 2006
05:06 PM

Hello Alan, You wrote: "She is looking back at every experience we have ever had and tarnishing it – this hurts me beyond belief – because I can look at pictures and video and see she was happy, in love – saying words to me that she meant at the time. Am I reacting to something I shouldn’t? I have only been compelled to apologize and work on myself – these feelings I don’t know what I can do about. She is looking for divorce papers now and I don’t think there is anything I can do. " My answer is yes, you can leave her alone and let her control herself and you control only yourself. Let her work her things out, let her remember things and allow her HER version of reality wether or not you agree with it. You claim that she is tarnishing the past...You may not yet even have the vaguest clue of how hurtful the past really was for her in the first place. Yes, it is sad and all of that for you but, (and what I am about to say here is really a big deal) It is not about you, got it. IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU, (not for her it isn't). Good luck, try to stop obsessing or focusing on her and how she views your mutual past, work on yoruself only. Besides, how can you work on yourself if all you are doing is wondering or worrying about her? Huh? If she is looking for divorce papers then, well, allow her the freedom to consider it, (who knows how things will go but, one thing that is pretty sure, if you panic and try to control her, you will probably gaurantee that they will proceed in the very manner you are trying to control them NOT to go). I can only speak from experience because my husband always wanted to apologize, (for hours on end) and wanted me to see his version, (for hours) and wanted me to stay and on and on... Best wishes, Jennifer B. p.s. so what did you expect, a medal? So you worked on yourself and suffered for a few days or weeks, big deal, keep doing it for months on end to see how things go and if you can grow, (I know, sounds harsh)

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January 09, 2006
06:25 PM

Thank you Jennifer It was harsh - but real Thank you for pointing it out and re-inforcing it. I need to hear it constantly. I really do because it is easay to fall back into patterns. What I was trying to get at was not what should I do about her - no intention right now to control her- but what should I do about these feelings I have about it. Rather than react to them - by calling, apologizing, telling her etc. - I wanted to voice it to the group to get an opinion as to how other people have dealt with these feelings. Im certainly not looking for a medal - Im trying to find assistance for the right course because I have gone in the wrong course for the past 30 years! Thanks for the response

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January 09, 2006
09:43 PM

Alan, Divorce is not the issue here. It seems like it is, but it isnt. When my husband asked for divorce, I gave it to him. It was the most painful thing I had done in my life, but you cant make someone stay in a marriage no matter how hard you try to control it. The best thing you can do is let your ACTIONS demonstrate to her that you are serious about this and you are going to do the work to become a healthy person first, then a healthy partner second. You may not even need her in your life after you have had some time to grow through this unhealthiness. She may not choose to grow through her pain. Many victims dont want to change. And, sometimes it really scares them when they see their partner change cause they had really rather keep it the way it is. Abuser or victim, it is still a personal choice on what work gets done. Both are unhealthy people. You are choosing to become healthy. Set her free. She needs to be free anyway. You need to be free, too. You are in some bondage to her. Get out from under it. It's always possible that you may not have as much abusive nature if you are away from someone who dances with you. Get off the dance floor and learn new steps, and practice before you go on the dance floor. Trust me, I know exactly what you are experiencing. Here is the way I felt. It's like waking up in a different country. You look around and find out that everyone you thought you knew is now speaking a different language and you have to learn the language all over again. Well you are learning a new language, the language of being a healthy individual. It's a gift you give yourself, then others. Dont dwell on the divorce. There is always re-marriage. Anyone can re-marry at anytime both parties want to. There really is no real finality with divorce. No more than one person choosing to leave another and not going back. My ex was not going to come back. Never, he said. I wanted him to love me enough to come back. That is the unhealthiness talking. Keep a journal. Right down your feelings and express your desire for her to come back or repair the relationship, but dont give it to her. Just keep a record of your feelings and your thoughts about her. Does she read the post on this site?????? If so, will she post??? I wish, so that I could write to her. You dont know how many of us will support the abuser, who owns his stuff, cause most abusers dont. They will let you do all the work for years and still bumble along with their kids, their friends and act so innocent about their abusive nature. The scariest thing is that alot of abusers will never "get" that they were abusers. They will never see it. Therapist dont even want to work with them, cause they know the outcome is almost nil. The therapist spend alot of time trying to help the victim see that it isnt going to happen. They have to move the victim forward. Magical thinking. You can be the greatest person in the world but the abuser is never going to let you be the greatest person in the world. I am so glad that you keep writing and you havent given up. Most would by now. Keep going. You will be so glad you did. And Jennifer, get the Cat. Animals are a man's best friend. They wont hinder you spending time alone and getting with your feelings. That cat wont turn into a person. They are there to encourage and support your growth. They will heal your soul, where your soul has been wounded. It's a healthy dependent care. That's okay.

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January 09, 2006
11:27 PM

Thank you for the words - to the last person - I dont know your name I appreciate the sentiment "Divorce is not final" - thinking about it that way helps. I know I cant hold onto her - slowly every day Im letting her go bit by bit. Its hard to hold onto when I can feel and hear her wanting to be let go as well. Its sudden and shocking and thats what makes it hard. Seeing the results of my own behaviour makes it unbearable at times - this thought I'll probably hold onto longer - as it becomes a driving force for me to never repeat it. Its hard to look at yourself in the mirror. My understanding of it helps it become a tangible thing that I can grab hold of and deal with. All of the comments on this site, the chat group and the professionals have been more help than I can thank you all for. I will keep going - I wont allow anyone else to hurt by my lack of control of my behaviour. Alan

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January 10, 2006
05:37 AM

Hi Alan, What do you do abou those feelings? You feel them, deal with them and feel through them and keep claiming 100% responsibility for them, they are all yours and no one elses. You are the creator of those feelings and the sole owner. Also, remember that you create your feelings based on what you think, which means that you have control over your own feelings. So, again, deal with them and if they are too much, share them with your counselor and ask for his/her professional opinion. Jennifer B

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January 10, 2006
05:49 AM

Hi again to Alan and to the wonderful advice person, This thread is helping me as well and I thank you both. I called the cat's foster parents and the shelter that housed her yesterday and worked out some details and adopted her last night! I had to drive about 45 minutes with her in the car and was totally surprised by how good she was. Cats normally hate the car. All she did was give me a few mrawls to let me know how indignant it all was but, then rode like a queen for the next 40 minutes. What a good girl! I found out that she has had a tough string of bad luck with about 6 different homes in her 5 short years. Her last home truly loved her but, thought she would be happiest as a solo cat and not with 4 kitty roomates. She is still settling in as its been less than 12 hours but, when I woke up this morning and looked around for her she was sleeping underneath my bed, directly under where I was sleeping. Since she has been through so much in her life I know it will take time before she trusts but, I am happy to start this process with her. I mean, I would much, much rather aquiesce to a formerly abused cat who needs a loving home than to an abusive human who just needs someone to dance with. I don't do that dance anymore, I am going to learn some new steps and am not even concerned about taking the floor! Thank you, Jennifer B

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January 10, 2006
05:41 PM

Alan, Unfortuately, we all say things and turn things, aroung and into, what makes us feel better. Let her say what she needs to say. Your actions will still speak volumes about who you are. She is angry, hurt, sad and is just processing like you are. It doesnt last forever. I can look back and laugh at so much, now. When you get through the pain and begin to heal or recover, you will see truth you never wanted or could see. My ex and I are back where we were before we started dating. I told him the other day that we just never should have crossed the coffee table, but I was glad that we did cause we have two incredible kids that came from our relationship, healthy or unhealthy. Now we are teaching them early to pay attention to some things before they get too heavy into early relationships that are serious. He still doesnt see his part, but he figures I am not dumb so even though he cant see it, he knows there was something wrong. I am in a very healthy, satisfying in every way relationship, and I can truly see the difference. My counselor told me, one day, I would have this great experience and it would really ring true the poor relationship I was in. I was so glazed over with pain when he would say that, cause I thought I had the best thing and lost it. Duh!! We are always in the learning curve. Does she read the post??? Have an interest in the site, at all???? Jennifer, you go girl, with your cat. You will get on that dance floor again. You do it, in and on your own time. I bet it will be a great dance. I never thought I would dance again, but the last 6 months have proven to be a very good dance. I have had so many things happen that relate to what both of you are going through. I feel all of your pains, pangs, and fears. But I am hear to say, once again, do the work and you will reap what you so. As a good ole friend of mine use to say, "If you will do this, I will dance at your wedding." Well, guys, if you will keep doing your work, I will dance at your wedding. Do you go on the boards? I havent quite figured out how to do it. Too busy to sit and figure it out. Any advice??? I always forget to sign my name, so to take the mystery away, let me introduce myself as, Val. If you have any questions, I will try and tell you what I have learned through the mega resources I have on my shelf. I too, took this stuff very seriously, and have a whole library committed to resources. They are abundant. Dr. Irene puts in all in a nutshell and speaks on both sides of the issue. That really helps. Doc, if you are listening, thanks, you have helped me more than you know. I've been on the site for over a couple of years, I think. Time flies even when it isnt so fun. Thanks for the banter. It helps heal the spirit. Val

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January 10, 2006
06:26 PM

Hello Val, Thank you and also thank you to Alan for sharing your thread with me, (as your posts and responses back to mine were very helpful). Val, just this afternoon I was really surprised by some of the waves of grief I felt. These were as strong as when I first realized that my husband was abusing me and that my dream was a nightmare. You wrote, "cause I thought I had the best thing and lost it. Duh!!" Tonight I was having a little kitty snuggle and I was crying over what I thought I lost, (which in reality where things that I really never had). What I was grieving were the brief honeymoon time when I first moved in with him, after 7 years of off an on and then that 8 months living together where everything was hopes for the future. It was not rosy but, it was "hopeful", this is one of the things I think I may be grieving. I know it will get better but, for now, I am "going" through it. Jennifer B

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January 11, 2006
01:23 AM

Hi Val , Hi Jennifer B Thanks for sharing your stories and advice In my wife’s heart right now she thinks we were never right and says I never loved her. This kills me more than anything. I had a behaviour that recurred too many times and it overshadows everything. I messed up horribly – I didn’t pay attention. I think about it now and there is such a shift. I m mindful of every word I say now – every thought I think. I see how little time it takes to just be in the present moment rather than always thinking about what we need for the end of the month, next paycheck, end of the year, our lives etc. Its like looking back at a childhood and saying – I cant believe I thought those things or acted that way. It hurts to see who I was – just 26 days ago. Crazy to see it so differently in such a short time. The steps you guys have taken and my wife are so necessary – though painful it forces clarity. I don’t know if my wife is reading the posts. I told her about it but right now everything I tell her is rejected so I doubt it. Im so sorry for what I have done. Im sorry for anyone there who has been hurt by their best friend/closest intimate other. I can see how it can feel so horrible the trust she gave me and now feeling that I threw it all away. I will be forever learning to see properly. My eyes were fogged over by selfishness and what I thought was the right way to be. Yes Val I go on the boards. If you go to DR. Irene’s page – http://www.drirene.com/support_lists.htm there are three to choose from. I too have gotten a little confused in the catbox. Not sure where to post. The I_am_responsible chat group is great. Very supportive but very real. Give it a try. Alan

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January 13, 2006
09:06 AM

The other day I had a conversation with my wife. It was sthe first time we both were able to talk since she left 29 days ago. We listened to eachother, really listened. I was using all of the tools that I have been taught by this site and books and I found myself engaging and connecting in ways that I never have before. I could hear my wife relax some, and although there is still lots of hurt we were able to share and learn from eachothers experiences and what we have learned over the past month. I learned a lot from her and appreciate her opening up to me. I dont think she is able to forgive at this point however, she was able to listen and engage and that was wonderful to me. When I woke up this morning I felt a little bit different and Im a little bit nervous about it. I thought of life with my wife again - I felt comforted and filled with warmth and smiles. Then I thought about life without her and I didnt have the same usual response of sickness and fear. This worries me, I am scared that I am becoming a little complacent over her decision to return or not to. As if either way I could deal with. Does this mean I am getting over her? It feels much too soon. Advice? Alan

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January 14, 2006
06:06 AM

Good Grief Alan, It has only been 29 days and you are feeling the NEED for her to forgive you? Allow her time to greive, process and have HER time! Goodness' sakes, it is not about YOU, (for her). Jennifer B

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January 14, 2006
09:32 AM

Jennifer Its a difficult thing to live alone for 30 days straight after 8 years of companionship. Although it doesnt seem like much 30 days of being face to face with your own horrible behaviours and hearing only pain from my wife whom I thought I was loving with all my heart is the most difficult thing I have ever had to contend with. I guess it would have been easy to deny everything and resent her but I could not. I appreciate your perspective, I really do - I think about my wife everyday and talk and apologize my heart out and continue to work on myself. It is a difficult thing when you are by yourself for hours on end, only dealing with the mistakes you have made, not to think about yourself. Im not feeling sorry for myself its just what is - and Im trying my hardest to forgive myself. My wife is hurting badly. She has been hurting for 8 years and kept it quiet. I cant imagine the suffering she has gone through. I am the cause of her suffering for 8 YEARS! if that isnt enough to beat oneself down to the ground I dont know what is. Its painful and I cant deny that. Im trying to cope - and you say its not about me but I assure you its happening to me. I am using this and other groups to express myself because I have been on the wrong path for too long. I appreciate your candor to re-direct me but I am a human being. PS - In the previous e-mail I asked if I was getting over her - what I meant was - am I learning to cope without her? Alan

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January 14, 2006
11:33 AM

Jennifer I re-read my previous e-mail. I think I reacted there. It must have read as aggression towards you and I apologize. You are right I am wanting forgiveness and I should not expect it too soon - or at all for that matter. I'm in a whirlwind of doubt and Im constantly re-thinking my thoughts. Dont stop harping on me. I cant imagine how you must feel hearing an abuser talk about themself. Alan

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January 14, 2006
02:53 PM

Alan, I dont see you only thinking about yourself. I see you caring about your wife's feelings. I was on the abused side for 23+ years and I still had to take responsibility for my own actions. If you are truly a genuine, caring person, your wife will see it. She has to give you time to work on you, and she has to work on herself. It isnt all about you. She has to do and take some of the responsibility. You say you are hurting, you've made mistakes. We all do. We are human and very fallible. So, beating yourself up isnt going to solve anything but take you down to more depression. Just go to work on your inner self and try and look realistically from childhood on, where you were wounded? What was your family circustances and are you modeling someone else's behavior that was taught to you? My husband's father was a verbal, physical abuser and an alcoholic. My husband witnessed alot of horrible things. All of the kids were affected by it. My husband was an abuser in a covert way, very covert. He probably didnt want to be like his dad so he thought he wasnt cause it didnt look like the same way he saw his dad treat his mother. It was covert, not overt. He was probably in pain more than the rest of the siblings cause he always acted so macho and declared he scathed by and was above it all. Well guess what?? He wasnt. I have been living with a very dry drunk all this time and didnt realize it. He didnt drink alot. I believed he had scathed by it to. But, no, he didnt. When I started counseling for codependent behaviors, I had to come clean that my dad was a verbal abuser to my mother and myself. I have now put boundaries in place, but I dont blame my dad for having them. I cant change him but I can point out when his behavior is not acceptable to me and leave the room or house when I am there. Victims have alot of work to do, as well. I have been at it with a very good therapist and it will bring you a lot of joy. You will change, if you do the work. You will slip. I do every day. We all do, so dont go a thinking you are so bad you cant redeem yourself. You can and you will. Your wife does need alot of time. Even if you two were to stay together it can take up to 5 or so years to reap the benefits of change. Stick with it. If your wife cares enough, she will seek the other side and learn how to have good boundaries. It doesnt excuse the behavior on your part, but each party has 50% of the relationship, no matter what. Besides, we all can go down into self pity, feel a little pain, and grieve. Abusers get to grieve, too. It is a painful wakeup call. It will move you forward. It's all part of the growth to maturity and acceptance. You will become free and experience the joy of real freedom one day. Keep getting it out. I am reaping some of the greatest benefits of my work. It took a lot of time to get there. But I see many people struggling today and they dont want to see their behaviors or spend the time doing the work. Too lazy. So they get what they get each day. Work on empowerment. Alan, healthy balance. Exercise, nutrition, counseling, a good day at the office, a little spiritual meditation. Find your inner spirit, and let the spirit move you, too. We all are loveable, deserve love and when we fall, and we will, we need to remember the higher power is working more than we know. Thank goodness. It does feel kind of lonely but you know what, we have to learn to be good and single, alone and fulfilled before we can have a good relationship with another person. So work from that premise. I love my alone time and it isnt lonely. Keep pushing even when that big ole rock isnt moving. All you need to do is push. Take care!

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January 17, 2006
10:26 AM

I dont know if people are reading these posts anymore. Some of you recommended that my wife post her thoughts. I have to say that she probably will not and this is my fault. She showed me once again how I did not think about her and only myself. I encouraged my wife to post and she almost did - just when she built up some trust I shattered it once again. I sent this link to my family for the intention that they see what I have done to my wife so they can understand why she had to leave. Unfortunately I failed to see the violation of her privacy. On one of my posts I let her feeling be known and some of them were regarding my family. She did not ask me to do this. I cant believe I didnt think about this but this is my pattern. I have violated her rights to privacy and I am truely sorry for this. I can see how horrified she would feel This is a difficult road. Im trying to stay on course but the ground is shakey. Alan

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January 17, 2006
08:14 PM

Alan, She has to understand where you are coming from. Did she know you were on this site. The site explains both sides. She has to try and understand the patterns of behavior and allow time on both sides to process. I am sure she is angry. I was angry too. I had to learn and learn some more. It will be hard for her to understand at first, but she needs to know that there are alot of us out there who's spouses didnt acknowledge their behavior. I wish she would post, but you havent violated her privacy. No one knows who you are. You are a parallel couple who are dealing with an epidemic of relationships. You are not the only ones dealing with this. She has to understand that eventually. Sure, her family is going to take sides but you know what? Mine stayed neutral and let us work it out. Stop beating yourself up over every little thing. I believe you are trying. That is what matters. You are going to make mistakes. Keep working at it. She will see in time, your truth and forgiveness. It will take some time. I am still here with you, if you need support. I kick myself in the rear alot. You just will. Tell her to post. We dont know her. Vent it out. Val

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January 20, 2006
01:12 PM

Alan, I read your letter because I want to learn about what motivated my abusive ex husband. I wanted to know if my abusive ex husband had a kernel of awareness of how much I loved him and how confusing and destructive his abuse was to me. If he ever really saw me for who I am. I certainly cherished the good parts of him. Because my experince and your wife's are very similar, our responses to the situation are similar...the thing I would like recovering abusers to know is that no, trust in you agian is not likely. Why? because when the realization comes that we have been abused for the duration of the relationship, that we have been manipulated and controlled; it becomes impossible to distinguish between that and genuine happy memories. Abuse confounds all attempts to understand our past with the abuser and it remains frozen in turmoil. The past actually changes, and that is mind blowing and soul shattering. What was control and what was manipulation? Did he really love me? Is he Capable of love? That is my real question for Dr. Irene. Are abusive people capable of love? Or was I simply an object to use as a punching bag? An object to vent rage on? I read Alan's letter and he sounded a lot like my ex, for the first couple of lines, I thought it was him and I had hope again. I had hope that he finally saw me for who I am. I had hope that I could have my husband back, healthy and whole...but realistically, the damage is done, and he lacks Alan's insight (as well as his library)and he too is sleeping alone.

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January 20, 2006
01:40 PM

Is anyone else concerned that after only 30 days since he discovered he is a wife abuser (because his wife left him), Alan is the "expert" on this page? Does it concern any of the women who are dealing with co dependency issues, that a confirmed abused (for 8 years AT LEAST)is now our guru? Stop congratulating him ladies. As many of you have pointed out, he only figured it out because he lost his wife. It has only been a month. He is not in any position to have these kind of "advice" conversations (where he is giving answers, or controling) with abused women. STOP GIVING HIM POWER. Alan, share your story, but do it in a way and in a forum where you are not advising or leading potential victims. Don't think your new position as martyr on this page is not an extension of your PROBLEMS - it is not part of your healing

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January 20, 2006
07:34 PM

Everyone needs to speak for themselves. All ladies and gents (many men have been abused, too) it isnt a gender thing even though it happens to more women. It is unfortunate that we stay in these relationships and many times we didnt even realize to the magnitude of manipulation. It was done with such kindness or covert ways. I dont see Alan being an expert. Alan, you will have to be very honest with yourself, cause admitting your abuse and changing the behavior are two completely different things. The abuser and victim really are on different unhealthy rides. I hope the men and women who have been in abusive relationships have done the work to recognize the abusive nature, learn boundaries, and attract themselves to healthier people. It really is major work on both sides. Most of it came from the childhood relationship patterns, so you have to deal with the anger, it is on both sides (anger) and process it with a good abuse counselor. Most people will not recover without the help of a professional. We also have to take personal responsibility. Being separated and alone is good for both parties. Neither are really healthy enough to have a relationship without the work. I personally keep doing the work on recovery, balance it with healthy choices, and let my Higher Power, guide me through the peaks and valleys. It is a roller coaster. The outcomes of abusers recognizing and taking healthy action is difficult, but I believe some make it. It doesnt make me feel better to blast my ex for being the poison in the water. I have accepted that he cant see it, therefore he cant make better choices. I couldnt see my own abuse and it took me 6-10 months to recognize it myself. How long did it take some of you to get it????? I have just chosen to not be around him. That is my boundary. I have worked through forgiveness and it has opened my life up immensely. Great things are coming from it. So, I believe we all can have fruitful lives, and are deserving of fruit, when we all do our part to take personal responsibility. I have noticed, that those of us who were the victims, can still sabatoge ourselves. That is what I have to pay most attention to. I still catch myself believing I dont deserve to have quality of life. But I do and it is coming, ever so sweetly. Keep up the work.

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January 22, 2006
06:20 PM

Hello to the poster who wrote, "Is anyone else concerned that after only 30 days since he discovered he is a wife abuser (because his wife left him), Alan is the "expert" on this page? Does it concern any of the women who are dealing with co dependency issues, that a confirmed abused (for 8 years AT LEAST)is now our guru? Stop congratulating him ladies." Not all of us are congratulating him. Not all of us even continued to respond to his posts for attention and ammo. Jennifer B p.s. just today my best friend was telling me how after she caught her husband cheating, (oh he had a credit card charge to a hotel while she was in the HOSPITAL for her hysterectomy) that he wanted her to forgive him right away, like how dare she be upset because I mean after all, he WAS so sorry!!

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January 23, 2006
02:17 PM

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January 23, 2006
03:02 PM

I am the one who posted the really angry e-mail lambasting Alan and his "guru" status. I have to appologise for bringing an angry tone to the page. I stand by my words and thoughts. I am responsible though for bringing an aggressive tone and it was uncalled for. We have all had enough of that in our lives. As you can probably tell, I have just been let out of an abusive relationship. Where I was once a happy, laughing funny woman, filled with optimism (that is what he said he loved about me, my ability to be generous of spirit and positive) my abuser infected me with the suspicion, rage, hate and contempt he has for the world. What abusers should know is this: when the woman you love turns into "the same old nag, just like the other one's", it is because YOU have manipulated and bullied her into changing. You manipulated and bullied all of the women into becomming the same victim. THAT is the reason. M. violated my boundaries and I am having a hard time responding to things as I normally would. It is going to take some time before I can gage correctly what is appropraite and thought based, rather than emotional reaction. I am truly like a wounded dog and that is what terrifies me the most. I don't recognize myself. I am aware that I am "off", but I don't know how to get back to normal, and I am terrified I will remain this slightly crazy, inappropraite, emotional basket case. I am starting therapy, I have been a few times actually. The challenge I face right now is that I am afraid to leave the house because of outbursts like the post I did from the other day. I don't want to do that in public, but apparently I can't be trusted yet. It semmed ok at the time - the post. And now this whole e-mail sounds just like my abuser does. God please help me. What happened to me?

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January 23, 2006
04:15 PM

You do sound like you are on the early stages of abuse recognition. You are getting really good and angry and it comes out. That is what I said about everyone has their work to do. I think Alan has left the site. Alan, are you out there??? Even listening??? I hope you are with an abuse counselor cause it does make the difference. I find myself telling my counselor the differences you see when you are in the unhealthy abusive relationship vs the healthier relationship. WOW! He jumps right in the minute you distinquish the two. He gets it. He also an anger specialist and it is all about anger. Sorry you are feeling so aggressive. I never ever really got that way, but I can see where you can. I do hate that Alan left the site cause he does have some information for us. Have you tried to talk to your abuser?? They cant share anything that is helpful.

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January 24, 2006
10:45 AM

I am still here. I have mostly been reading the posts. It is difficult to respond to the harshness sometimes. I do need to hear it and have by others and my wife. Thank you all of sharing I am listening intently. The one person is right that it may not be my plasce to give any aort of advice to someone that has been abused. I have been reading a lot and learning from therapy ( he does deal with abusive people). At times I felt I wanted to share what I had learned, I truly did not mean any offence. There are also times where I need to listen to positive re-enforcement as well. I guess abusers have quite a challenge too. Overcoming a behaviour that has been ingrained and accepted over years is no easy task. Its hard to see yourself from the outside. It wasn’t easy to understand at first - I was in an unconscious relationship. It is like walking around dead. Assuming everything is normal – because this was normal for me and what I learned in my past. Now that I am “awake” it is a scary world. Its like being pulled out of a warm bath naked in the snow. There is nowhere to turn for comfort. I had to face myself and re-learn my very own way of thinking. After 30 years of conditioning this is hard to do. I am sure the abused partners have it similar. Trying to figure out why they took it for so long. Not being able to trust others. It is scary and painful that my wife is in such turmoil, I am so used to sharing everything with her and her me. Now we have ourselves. I have been grieving a lot and am now learning about being in the present. I am spending a lot of time healing and meditating. Asking a lot of questions about myself, discovering where the behaviours have come from and trying to understand them. I have no expectations at this point about any outcome with my wife and I. I question “love” a lot. One of the writers asked if abusers are capable of love. I know I am – at least I think I am. I feel love for many people. I thought I was a genuine person. I look at the people around me and I talk to them genuinely. I have love for my wife – more than she knows - I just didn’t know how to show it. Some of these actions and behaviours have to be taught. As my bad behaviours were taught. Love was expressed very differently in my family and this I accepted. My wife showed me love and I didn’t respond in the same way. This hurts me everyday. Now that I see it, it is almost so simple. I really did feel it. It was as if I was on auto pilot with all of my reactions. I never stopped – I was continually reacting and had constant thoughts of the future and what to do next, how to pay for this, how to achieve that goal etc. There was no stillness. I am learning that this is the only way to be aware. I hear other abused partners talk about wishing their husbands could have been aware. Im not sure it makes much of a difference. The damage has already been done. Like my wife you have bad memories and walk with pain. The person who was supposed to love you did not show it. I understand how that would hurt for a long time. I have heard change is possible for both. It is necessary for me to change my behaviour for myself, I wont go on walking dead – it is too horrifying to se