Comments for Self-Proclaimed Sociopath

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos  Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Larry-

Wow! You've sure been through a lot in the past few weeks. ANYONE in your position would be reeling right now. As you think about your relationship, with or without a therapist, remember that it takes two to tango! No matter what your wife says, she isn't all right, and you're not all wrong! Neither is the opposite true. Relationships are about working for the betterment of both people--- once someone tries to prove that they are right, they have already entered the treacherous ground of keeping score and holding grudges, not a healthy thing for anyone.

As for your comments about your antisocial, sociopathic disorder--Are you holding in horrible rage? What's going on? Please give us some more information! Remember, it's ok to vent on the page, and in your imagination, just not to real people and in real life. :):):)

As for your counseling----not all therapists are as cool as our good doc here;  :):) sadly you may have found one with an ax to grind, an agenda of his or her own, that prevents them from seeing the truth, or from saying things that are helpful, rather than throwing around phrases like "controlling" when they really have no idea what that means. What do you think Larry? Follow your instincts-- if you are wrong, you can try to change what you did. At least you know you are being yourself. The only exception is, never, ever, follow through on any impulses you may have to hurt somebody. Good for you for red flagging yourself, so to speak, when you feel the violence rising within you- as you write in your post, that you take timeouts, as you have trained yourself. However, when you feel that instant instinct to lash out, and you wisely suppress it, take a time out, like you do, ask yourself this---what genuinely disturbs me about this situation? It sounds like from your email, that you have started to do this with your wife. Keep up the good work! If you tell your wife what's bothering you, and she continues to accuse you of cowardice, withholding (maybe she wants a man to be abusive to her, sad as this sounds), you may just have to consider separating from her for a time OUCH! But it may just be what you'll have to do.

Now, what I just wrote may be helpful for you, or I may be off the mark. You, Larry, are the one to decide this. Just as you, Larry, are going to be the one to decide whether you like your marriage counselor, whether you and your wife can make it, how you want to try to cope or heal your sociopathic disorder, as you describe it. And if you make "mistakes", it will be you, Larry, who will hopefully decide to love yourself anyway, and move on. You can't cure anyone else--- No one! As for your wife, her illness is her illness, not yours..... God bless you and good luck! I have the weird feeling you'd like reading ", The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values, and Spiritual Growth" by M. Scott Peck. Cheers

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

I don't know Larry...something about your email makes me wonder if it isn't one of those hoax letters that Ann Landers sometimes gets from the students at Yale.

The red flag for me was how calm you where when your wife didn't come home for 36 hours and you had no idea where she was. I would think a normal reaction would be one of a frantic panicked worry that would leave one to frazzled and lathered to remain civil, never mind as calm you claim you where.

The other red flag is your background of the army requiring you to see a shrink....yet you are very sketchy as to why. Something is not quite right here. You've tried to make your behavior and responses seem to perfect. Uh...uh.....There's a lot more to your story than meets the eye.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

I agree with the previous post,

What gives Larry??? Tell us the whole story. Tell us the other side. Tim

  B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

You sound very "together" for someone with an anti-social personality. A disorder like that would take years of very hard work to overcome. I'm also curious as to who diagnosed you. As far as killing when you were a soldier; I can only relate to my father who was a paratrooper in World War II. He was in several horrible battles. Whenever he told war stories, he always said, "You wouldn't believe how easy it is to kill someone." He didn't enjoy killing, but. just that he felt nothing. After all, it was him or them. I don't know your circumstances of the killing in Somalia. Did you enjoy killing? Or just didn't feel remorse, which seems understandable for soldiers. Is this incident the reason why you believe you are an anti-social personality? Why did the V/A refer you to counseling?

What other problems have you had in your life? Anti-socials have very disruptive behavior at an early age. As Dr Irene pointed out, it's hard to tell if you are twisting the truth. If you heard my abusive brother talk about me, you would think I was some sort of psychotic monster because he lies and/or his perceptions are out of touch with reality. He believes his perceptions, that's why his stories can sound true. Also, if you are a true anti-social, then you would be very good at lying. On the other hand, living with someone who is bipolar is very stressful. I'm not sure what to think.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Hi everyone, Larry here. I read all your posts and thank you for the responses. I would like to address a few things from them but I'm not sure where to start. I guess I will start from the top.

First post -- From M. Scott. You're right. That was an excellent reply and I thank you for sharing it. It didn't happen over a few weeks though... This has been YEARS in the making. Also, I am fully aware that I am not innocent in all this. I did my fair share of dirty deeds to provoke her. I just can't find the wrong in some of the things I've been told I did wrong.

Second Post from anonymous -- Calm was not the word to describe me when she didn't come home. I was on the phone like a maniac calling hospitals, her friends, relatives, etc. I did finally figure out where she was but the fact is she just didn't come home or call. That was VERY wrong of her to do and I don't think I reacted out of line by telling her that I would have appreciated a call.

Also, as for my military background. I knew I should have left that part out! I did leave it vague on purpose. My data book was a little fuller than they expected, so my commander ordered me in for a psych-eval. I didn't commit any war crimes or anything so there is nothing to worry about.

Post 3 from Tim. Not sure what you mean "the other side".

Post 4 from anonymous: Thank you, I have been trying to get things "together" for quite a long time. I sound much more level than I really am though, I just got through needlessly biting one of my employees heads off for pestering me.

I wouldn't say I enjoyed killing, but the people on the receiving end meant nothing. They were just like the metal plates falling at the target range. I didn't pay them much attention actually. I guess that is why my data book was so chilling. I entered no description of the person just "combatant" and their approximate location relative to my position.

My psychologist later asked me to draw a picture of a person. The picture I drew was pretty plain. I put no face on it and gave it no gender. It was just an outline of a human form actually. I asked him about that sometime later and he never really did tell me whether it was right or wrong. He just asked "Is that how you see people? "

I was VERY disruptive at an early age. I was abused by a teacher and I swear that woman cut an evil streak through me. I was a rotten kid and had an uncontrolled rage that made people very afraid. You're also right about lying. I am very good at it.

But what benefit is lying to me? It would be a waste of time.

Thanks again, folks.

-Larry

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Larry, thank you for your replies.

Also, look here: Larry answers some more questions...

Gang, our buddy Larry apparently meets criteria for anti social personality. And he seems to fit the bill for controlling abuser as well. Now, how to help explain to him what parts are controlling and why - without some concrete examples?  Help us Larry. Dr. Irene

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Wow. What a ride that must have been! I can sympathize (quite a bit, I might add) since my ex-gf is bipolar and was off her meds the last time she and I were back together. Stressful is an understatement, though I am thankful that things never got THAT bad between us. *sigh of relief*

It's good that you and your ex-wife are still talking. Sounds like you both have a lot to deal with, and if you can be helpful to each other without getting caught up in each other's problems (yeah, yeah, I know, I'm guilty of that myself :)) you've both got a distinct advantage.

Good luck! *hugs*

-AngryGirl

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Hi Larry,

I'm glad you cleared up a few things. From reading your reply what I pick up on is that you are like a duality. One one hand you wear your rage on your sleeve... on the other hand you demonstrate apathy. Which could be a way of coping. This may sound strange, but I get the impression from your posts you seem to describe your behavior in a detached almost third party way. Sort of like hearing a narration.

I understand from hearing many stories what the life a sniper is like. My dad was one in the Korean War. He was a Marine and was also a front line gunner. Even though this happened 10 years before I was born, he has never talked about it in the detached way I find you do. As a matter of fact he can still recall what some of the men he killed where doing just before he shot them. When he killed he did so because it was his job... and it was kill or be killed. He didn't like it... but he did what he had to do... and he had remorse, because they were still human beings, even thought they were the enemy. You have no remorse... this I have to say unnerves me about you. My dad is very open and honest about just what the hell really went on during that war. So I am well aware of many atrocities of war that are rarely ever written about.

The only thing I have to offer you in the way of help is to point out to you that I find from your posts that you are not in touch at all with your feelings. I am completely at a loss as to how to even begin to explain to you empathy and remorse. I know these things... I apply them all the time... yet I have no clue how to teach them. I now ask myself now can you teach someone to have remorse.. hmm.... I wonder if you really can? Maybe it's not learned maybe it's biological.

I wish I could be of more help to you. But I have no idea on how to advise you. Best of luck to you in your journey for answers. 

But I can help: You can practice empathy skills training. Each and every time you open your mouth or do something, ask yourself how you would feel if you were in the shoes of the person you are about to interact with. If you keep it up, after a while, it becomes habitual.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Larry, Larry-

M. Scott here. Actually my name is Dan - M. Scott Peck is the name of a damn good author you might want to look into, in the self-help section of your local bookstore.

I must admit- I'm as confused as the rest about you, and I don't like being confused. I get nervous, insecure, angry, hesitant, unsure, ready to lash out. Yup, all this, Larry, just from a post like yours. Surprised? This is because you don't fit into my preconceived idea of reality. So I tell myself you must be a prankster trying to have some fun with us recovery saps. Hmmmmm.... do I talk more about myself, or about you? So I wonder, and I wonder, and I wonder, and I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, tell myself that you're writing us all on the up and up, and I try to get into your head, not to heal you, I cannot do this, just to understand, this perhaps I can do, or at least try. What is the problem here, Larry?

Do you know what the problem is? You are just not telling us anything about yourself, about your interior. You talk about yourself from a great distance, and use terms like "antisocial personality disorder". What does this mean? What does it mean, that you have no feelings? Is this how you feel? What do you feel, right now, as you read this? Rage, despair, nothing, blank, something that can't be explained in language, just some hazy images? It's ok, man, whatever it is, it's ok. Stay with whatever it is. :)

Allow me to "should" you, just once, and suggest something for you? My suggestion is--- forget about who's right, and who's wrong, as regards you and your wife, or ex-wife, I am not sure of her status. Just feel the pain behind these questions, the agony of trying to prove yourself. You see, those of us on the journey, that I pray you will join us on- we aint gonna judge you man. You wanna kill somebody? Been there. You wanna blow shit up sometimes? Done that. Join the club, bro. Get yourself out of that straightjacket they told you was being normal. Some big assholes who had the nerve to call themselves "adults" did you a whole lot of wrong at a time when you were very, very small. You deserve better dude. So does your ex-wife, incidentally, but that's got nothing to do with you, you've only been given you yourself on this earth to deal with. You deserve better. 

Stop defending yourself, stop defending yourself, stop defending yourself. You don't have to explain your actions to ANYONE. Do you see your ex-wife trying to justify her tirades? Not!!!!!! Stop trying to play the saint, man, stop being all "well I deserve credit because I'm so reasonable, and pity me, I'm with a woman with mental illness, and I try so hard, poor Me". This is what I'm reading from you dude. Just LET IT OUT!!! But not on other people, unless it's sanctioned, like in karate or boxing. Scream, yell, run, whatever!!!! Just do it!!! Write, rip notebooks, scrawl out illegible nonsense, rebel!!! Do it, you've been trapped for too long. Just make sure that you keep other people safe, and try not to scare anybody unnecessarily. Give yourself time!!! The time they never gave you as a child. Do what you need to do. Peace and love and anger and peace again and love again.

"It aint that good, but it's a whole lot better than it was" Hell yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(If you are a joker after all, what the hell, I had a lot of fun writing this one) -Big D Oh, good stuff!

And now, here's another email Larry sent after I asked him to give me information he apparently didn't have:

"The stuff I don't have.

Dear Dr Irene,

The last message I wrote filled in some of my background. The questions I answered said a lot about me, but they were things that I have already learned about myself. I realized them, accepted that I did them, apologized to my ex, forgave myself, and moved on to the next set of hurdles. I've also forgiven her for the things she has done, but again: Her problems aren't my problems. I still do have an issue here though... I'll get to it in a minute.

So what do I need in order to move on? First: I need to know how to switch it off. I run a fairly successful company and I manipulate and control people for a living. How do I go about controlling every aspect of my life from 9-5 and then NOT do it the other 16 hours of the day? Oh, but you do maintain control 24/7. You take control of yourself in each and every aspect of your life where it is to your advantage to do so. I'm not talking about running your life in a way where your objective is to gain momentary ego satisfaction. That's short-lived, temporary, and nowhere. I'm talking about running your life with your head in a way that maximizes the probability of getting what you want out of life - while enhancing your self-respect at the same time. The straight and narrow road.

You impose self-discipline on yourself because - why wouldn't you want to run your life? Why would  you want to walk around like a loose cannon that anybody can set off? Do you want people to be able to manipulate you by pushing your buttons? But you already know this, for you've already imposed self-discipline in many areas. You just haven't taken it far enough. The more self-control / self-discipline you impose, the stronger you become. In time, controlling yourself becomes second nature. It becomes the new habitual response. It's no longer hard to do; it just "happens". And, you have the pride and satisfaction of knowing that nobody but you runs your life. A really good sociopath - who runs a successful life - knows this. Only dumber types, like one President I love to hate, let their ego and physical wants override their objective.

Second: How do I keep from taking the abuse myself? Everyone is looking at this as the typical abuser/victim relationship. I assure you that is not the case. Sounds like 2 abusers, or she is a very angry victim who can behave abusively, or she is abusive when sick and emotionally out of it. I took every bit as much abuse as I gave. In fact the abuse I took was on a much grander scale because I was physically assaulted on several occasions. I also had personal property destroyed as punishment for not doing things her way. She was probably even more controlling than I was. If I wasn't home from work in 30 minutes my cell phone was ringing and she was mad. Ugh. If I played a gig on a weekend (I'm a guitarist), and she didn't go, (sometimes she went out on her own) I better be home right on time and better pass muster. Yuk. If she did go I had to dress in what she picked out, and I had better not go out into the crowd. I already mentioned about the grass having to be less than three inches tall or I was in for a chewing, so I won't go back into that. I also faced name-calling, slamming doors, throwing things, broken windows, and she even kicked one of the dogs! So how do I not do unto others as they are doing to me? This part is about self-caring... You use self-control to control your emotional life so that it does not override the objectives of the higher self. Mess with that higher self, and you pay big time emotionally and spiritually.

When I feel that I am being treated with disrespect I get angry. Sure. I can control my anger and it doesn't turn to rage like it used to, but I do have to remove myself from certain situations to maintain control. OK. I thought I did the right thing by making it perfectly clear that I have to do that. You did. Assuming you didn't do it with an attitude. And, if you did it with an attitude, it just means you need to get better at removing yourself.  Instead I heard comments like "Oh there he goes off to pout" or "Awwwww he's going to go throw a temper tantrum". I thought I explained a specific thing I needed to do to deal with things, but instead I just gave her ammo to shoot me in the @ss with. You also gifted her with the power to push your buttons and provoke you into dumb action that works against your stated objectives! If she's angrier than you are, perhaps you did give her ammo... Well, in the scheme of things, so what? On the other hand, stop acting out yourself. Maybe she'll wise up and self-correct.

If you stop it, and she doesn't, you don't need her in your life. On the other hand, if you are The Abuser, check yourself out: perhaps you subtly or not so subtly provoked her so that she lost it and her taunting, ugly side came out. Now you can point your finger and say, "See, she's crazy!" But, where will that get you? Feeling OK for a moment? And then what? More of the existential despair you know so well. You know, in most cases, victim and abuser are relative...

There was this one time when I let a pair of her dry clean only pants slip into the washing machine. She retaliated by putting my shoes in the microwave. Yuk. Vindictive little sweetheart, isn't she? Sure it ruined the shoes, but it also ruined the microwave and started a small fire. I heard her screaming and ran into the house. I put out the fire and asked what had happened. She just started screaming at me and flailing her shriveled pants around as if bees were attacking her. I looked into the microwave expecting to see some sort of charred foodstuff. Nope, there were my Nikes! I asked why she had put them in there, and she threw the pants at me. Actually it still didn't register what I had done, so I went on about my business thinking that she had burned up my shoes as some bizarre ritual. Perhaps my shoes offended her in some way? That made me an "insensitive uncaring lout" and I had no idea why until she sent me an email from work the next day saying that I must be an "illiterate dumbass" because I couldn't read laundry tags. Ooops! You let her push your buttons again and manipulate you into acting out.

How do I NOT get angry about things like that? Why wouldn't you feel angry? Anybody would - that's ridiculous behavior on her part! As always, it's what you do with the anger - how you behave, not how you feel. She did not handle her anger well; she behaved poorly. She mis-behaved. My question to you is: when somebody misbehaves like this, why the heck would you want to be with them? I don't think I can, and frankly I think I have a right to be angry about it. But when your partner is equally as unreasonable as you are, how do you communicate? How do I get through to her and make her understand? I saw no way; I still see no way. I worked around her as if she was an obstacle and in turn I controlled and manipulated her and forced her to submit to my will with trickery and deception. I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have HAD to do that, and more than likely I DIDN'T have to do that. I just knew no other way so I went with it. Whether it was right or wrong it was my path. She misbehaved and you dealt with it by misbehaving yourself. As though two wrongs somehow make a right. First, separate feeling angry from behaving angrily. The two are a world apart. Walk away and chill. Give her a chance to chill. If she doesn't approach you with some kind of explanation and apology, find a way to relate your outrage calmly. For example, "I'm sorry I washed your slacks; it was a mistake. I will replace them. There was no need for you to blast my sneakers." The end. The rest is up to her. Your only sane option is to accept whatever she does with it. If you don't like it, you are free to ask her to drop it, or to leave. (You can't ask her to drop it if you don't drop it. That's the pot calling the kettle black.)

How do you handle an abuser when it is so easy to abuse them back? Turnabout is NOT fair play in this situation.  Sometimes Larry, you don't handle them; they won't let you. Sometimes, you just walk away because there is no way you are going to get anywhere - unless you enjoy being engaged in constant battle. You don't seem to though. You certainly don't abuse them back! That's a virtual guarantee of more abuse in return. Simply tell the person calmly that you are not OK with their behavior and that you won't tolerate that kind of vindictive acting out. If the acting out continues despite your lack of same, you have to back off, perhaps permanently - unless your idea of fun is  being strapped in an emotional roller coaster. Each and every time you retaliate, you damage your own already lacking self-respect. While "getting" her may feel good momentarily, there is no lasting sense of I-am-OK that accompanies it. 

Easy stuff, I think - easier said than done.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

Dr. Irene- Re: you last response- great stuff! This makes a lot of sense to me and helps clarify an issue that a lot of victims have to deal with- our anger! :) In the beginning of my relationship with my boyfriend, he was controlling and abusive and angry - so I'd be angry back! We'd get in screaming matches and say horrible things to each other, and we'd only been dating a month! (actually, we had a fight like this before we were dating- when we were still just friends!) After a while this got old, though. I felt hurt by the things he'd said and done to me, and I felt guilty for the things I'd said and done to him. I knew that our behavior wasn't 'right'- normal couples don't interact like this! (However, he had been raised with this kind of interaction and didn't even recognize it as bad.) So we had a few discussions and we both agreed to 'fight fair' from now on. 

Well, I cleaned up my behavior real fast, and now instead of screaming matches, we had episodes where he screamed at me while I cried and cried. Not good. I had given up a lot of power in my attempt to 'fight fair' and became his verbal punching bag- each time I hoped he'd understand how much he hurt me, and wouldn't do it again, but that time never came. The fights got more and more frequent, and his abuse became worse, and I stared to lose control of my behavior too, except this time, it was worse. More screaming matches again, I had temper tantrum that I'd never known I was capable of before - serious stuff.

Unfortunately, as I learned, this stuff only gives him more reasons and excuses to abuse me, or for it to be 'our' problem, not his problem with abusiveness. So now I'm learning how NOT to act when I'm abused, and what's acceptable. One thing that seems common - victims, even abusive-acting-out ones will generally clean up their behavior when they realize that it's inappropriate or wrong, YES! Victims will clean up their act fast; abusers can't do this for long!  and never act out when they're not being abused. Yes. Victims want comeradie. Abusers will continue to abuse after they've been made aware of the abuse, and they will abuse with and without being 'provoked' by the victim. Thanks again for the insight, Dr. Irene! -SatokoGirl, ever struggling down the path... and doing quite well...

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

Dan, thanks for the response, and for clearing up my name mix up.

I can understand how you are confused about me, as I am every bit as confused about myself. I'm not sure I understand why it makes you feel the way you do. Two passages from an ancient piece of Chinese philosophy come to mind. (The Art of War by Sun Tzu)

"Do not oppose those who would not contend."

Even if I am just pulling a hoax (A very time consuming hoax) it would mean no harm to you. He knows that. He is just trying to help you. Actually you would benefit from it either way because these are all learning experiences. Doctor Irene is giving very good advice that would benefit anyone who reads it, not just me. Also, my situation is of no consequence to your life whatsoever. 

Second:

"Make no travels without great benefit."

¡§Nervous, insecure, angry, hesitant, unsure, and ready to lash out. That's a long row to hoe, brother! That's a lot of needless stuff to be juggling around in your noggin too. Especially when it is over some anonymous dude on the net. What benefit is it to you to wonder, and wonder, and wonder? What benefit is it to anyone if you wonder about me? I think you miss the point.

What exactly is your preconceived notion of reality? What is reality for that matter? This perplexes me as well, as I wonder if the response to my situation would have been different had I done a switcheroo on the genders. What if I posed myself as a female and my ex-wife as a male? Reality is relative, and certainly is more so on the Internet where it can be easily manipulated. Oh please, don't go here. 

Now for some of your questions:

>Do you know what the problem is?

Obviously I know what some of my problems are. I've dealt with them and moved on. But I'm at the point now where I am not sure what is a problem and what is not. I've actually come a very long way with this. I'm not saying that I am at the end of my journey because I don't know where that is, but I am certainly a long way from the beginning.

I'm not sure what more there is to tell about myself that I haven't already told. I'm really not that complex,  and I think my only issue is that I am bad with relationships. I have one failed marriage to my discredit, a list of ex-girlfriends a mile long, and my only friends pretty much match the criteria for ASPD too!

I am detached with myself though. I guess it is a mechanism I use to keep my rage in control. I distance myself from everything, including myself. Yes. But, if you want to reach the end of this journey, you stop this. It is like I am running my life from the safety of my living room via a play station.

You can't hurt me, you can't anger me, you can't do anything because it's like I'm not really there. That leads right into the next question:

Well, first... Nobody can hurt you. Nobody can anger you. Nobody can do anything to you - because these are all things one can only do to oneself. But, you don't know this. And, empowering others with this great power to hurt you, anger you, trick you, etc., you defend yourself by cutting yourself off. Your disconnection strategy only hurts you... You are protecting yourself from imagined harm and don't see where the real power rests.

>What does this mean? What, does it mean that you have no feelings?

I do have feelings. I just have them differently than other people. If I win I'm happy, if I lose I try harder to win the next time. It's as if there are no negative consequences for me. That is a good thing sometimes, but it is a problem in certain situations. We live in a society of rules and regulations and I can't go running roughshod through the streets feeding whatever impulse comes to mind. I do have strong impulses and sometimes they do slip through... I own my behavior but I haven't completely mastered it yet. Yes, correct. And you cannot begin to master it without connecting first with the self.

„« What do you feel, right now, as you read this? Rage, despair, nothing, blank, something that can't be explained in language, just some hazy images? It's ok, man, whatever it is, it's ok. Stay with whatever it is.

I feel absolutely nothing. It just causes me to reflect inward and try to explain what I see. Not as proof that I am  "normal¨ or "abnormal" but rather to understand more about myself. You cannot understand as long as you remain disjointed.

>Do you see your ex-wife trying to justify her tirades?

Yeah, you should see the email I just got. She visited the board like I asked, but apparently has nothing constructive to add. I don't care though. Yes you do. Otherwise, you would not have asked. You would not have written the letter you wrote. Wake up. You do care, buddy. She can  rant and rave all she wants. Call me every name she can think of, it doesn't matter. This isn't about her and it is no longer "Our" dirty laundry I am airing. It's mine. 

>Just make sure that you keep other people safe, and try not to scare anybody unnecessarily. Hahahaha. 

Larry  The joke's on you kiddo.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

>Actually it still didn't register what I had done, so I went on about my business thinking that she had burned up my shoes as some bizarre ritual. Perhaps my shoes offended her in some way? That made me an "insensitive uncaring lout" and I had no idea why until she sent me an email from work the next day saying that I must be an "illiterate dumbass" because I couldn't read laundry tags. Ooops! You let her push your buttons again and manipulate you into acting out.

Now there is an example of what I am talking about. You said that I “let her” push my buttons. I don’t see how I let that happen in that situation. I was just doing what I do at work (nothing) This "(nothing)" is another of your disconnected, I-am-above-it-all-ness. But it is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. This one was thrown in to impress your audience.  and in comes this email telling me how stupid I am over a pair of stupid slacks! I didn’t draw any lines in the sand and dare her to cross it, I didn’t shrivel her pants on purpose, I don’t see how I provoked her or offered her a button to push. It seems to me that she snuck up on me and pushed a button before I could react. She let you push her own reaction buttons for sure. But we're not talking about her. This is about you, and you did react to her: with studied nonchalance and disconnection. And you were insensitive. Your provocation was your Sin of Omission: If you didn't know what was bugging her, did you bother asking?  A "normal" person would ask what's wrong... 

The buttons are already there and everyone has them. I wouldn’t be able to react to various situations in daily life if I didn’t have them. It certainly doesn’t make sense that I should walk through life ever vigilant of a sneaky button pusher sneaking up behind me either. If I have to do that I might as well move to an isolated mountain villa and let my faithful servant, Igor, do my bidding for me. Wrong again. The buttons are there and you should not walk through life vigilant, as you do now, which is evidenced by your need to cut yourself off. The goal is for you to pull your buttons in, as opposed to pretending you are above it all and that they don't affect you.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

One quick question-- have you ever posted under the Internet handle "shaman"?

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

Hi folks, chatterbox Larry here again. This is a response to the above post about empathy.

A agree that I do talk about my behavior in a third party sense. As if I am really not the one behaving that way, but someone I am observing. But these are, after all, self-observations. I’m not sure how else they should sound. They "should" sound like they come from your perspective, whatever your heartfelt perspective is. That they don't just adds one more step to your recovery, since before you can begin to heal the inside, you have to own that you have it.

I hear what you are saying about your father in Korea. He was killing soldiers that were his counterparts. Every shot that he took could have effected a battle that saved thousands of lives on both sides. He was doing an honorable thing, but had to bear a heavy load to do it.

I wasn’t doing that. There is nothing wrong with not feeling remorse for killing Somalis. That may sound even more un-nerving but you said it yourself; your dad was killing human beings. We were cleaning stains off of the canvas of humanity. They ripped my friends head off and played soccer with it. They don't even qualify as animals. Don't you see you are doing the same exact thing "they" did? You view them as less than human because of what they did with your friend's head. They cut themselves off from any feelings of empathy with your friend's plight to be able to engage in such vile acts. Yet, you become exactly as savage and inhuman as they are when you cut off your own feelings of empathy for them and kill them as though they are insects - despite their heinous crimes. 

I can and do feel remorse; I can and do have empathy. It is just not as natural in me as it is in others. I have to do exactly as Dr Irene said, I have to consciously think about what I am going to do and how it would make me feel. Right. And don't start there, but at some point try and touch your empathy regarding the Somalis.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

I think I love you, Larry.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Will you marry me?

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

PSYCHE! (Sorry, bad pun.)

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Actually, the sociopath is starting to bore me. I just want to hear more about that cute darn cat!  Gee, if I had a Meow mpg, I'd upload it. Will you settle for an autographed pix? 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Hi, Larry again. Responding to Dr Irene's comments above.

>I was just doing what I do at work (nothing) This "(nothing)" is another of your disconnected, I-am-above-it-all-ness. But it is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand. This one was thrown in to impress your audience.

No, that seriously is a problem! This is another side of the coin and I wish I would have though of it earlier. I am overstaffed. I am so overstaffed that there is not enough work for everyone to do especially me. I sit on my ass all day watching other people work. Many people THINK they would love to do that. It is NOT fun, it is aggravating and makes you feel like you are not contributing to the success of your own company.

I have two options. Make the company grow or fire people. I don’t have the heart to fire people. I can’t even fire the employees that deserve fired because I know they have families and or separate dependants that would suffer. I know how I would feel if I was fired, especially if I had a family to support. What’s worse is that some of them WON’T support their family! I have to garnish their wages and send it off to social services. Is that not empathy? Why mention it Larry?

>She let you push her own reaction buttons for sure. But we're not talking about her. This is about you, and you did react to her: with studied nonchalance and disconnection. And you were insensitive. Your provocation was your Sin of Omission: If you didn't know what was bugging her, did you bother asking? A "normal" person would ask what's wrong...

That’s true. I would ask what’s wrong if it were anyone but her. I know her reactions and that would have led to a blow up. I see what you’re saying here. I kept a separate ruleset for dealing with her over other people. If my friends or family display anger towards me I make a point to find out why they are angry. With her I took the long way around because I knew the road would be rough. Yes.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

>Don't you see you are doing the same exact thing "they" did? You view them as less than human because of what they did with your friend's head. They cut themselves off from any feelings of empathy with your friend's plight to be able to engage in such vile acts. Yet, you become exactly as savage and inhuman as they are when you cut off your own feelings of empathy for them and kill them as though they are insects - despite their heinous crimes.

This is a tough one to stomach. This one hits me pretty hard and kind of rouses my inner monster. Yes.

A team of commandos was to storm a building and capture some faction leaders. Rangers were to rope in from choppers around the block and keep the crowd back while the prisoners were loaded into a convoy and hauled away. Fire teams were deployed to lay down harassing fire to keep the Somalis from lighting signal fires. I wasn’t there to kill any of them.

Someone from our embassy leaked word of the operation. The fires were lit well before dawn and just about every faction was already there hiding in wait for our guys. We were no threat to their way of life, we weren’t going to occupy their city and enslave them. They knew it perfectly well too, we were there on a relief mission! They were just there to kill us for shits and giggles. I didn’t cut any of their heads off. None of their body parts came home with me as a trophy. I didn’t pick any of them apart. I didn’t wound any of them. I didn’t wing any of them so they would flail around drawing out more targets. If I shot them it was clean and instantly lethal. I don’t celebrate October 3rd as the day we killed 1000 Somalis but they celebrate it as the day they killed 18 of us.

I have empathy. I sure wouldn’t like to be shot dead by someone I had no hope of shooting back at. I have more empathy for the American soldiers, who they were cutting to ribbons, than I do for the Somali gunmen. OK.

I just don’t feel guilty for it. Good! I don’t see how anyone could after that experience. If I had never seen total anarchy, and the complete lack of innocence, maybe I would.

Right. And don't start there, but at some point try and touch your empathy regarding the Somalis.

I’ve been thinking hard about this for a few hours now. The only empathy that I have for them is a direct rebound from myself. I wouldn’t like to be shot dead. Good. Should there be more? I hunt for food. I don’t eat commercially prepared meat because of all the toxic crap that is stuffed into it. I feel so much regret over shooting deer that I am selective over which ones I shoot. Anyone can have that empathy because they can picture a happy little deer frolicking in the grass. Perhaps you can do that for a Somali by picturing one of them hanging out by a campfire with their friends. Trust me, if you ever see the place you will never picture any of them in an innocent context again. The biblical description of hell doesn’t scare me, Mogadishu is far worse.

It's too soon for you to go here... Don't rush. Empathy is about being able to put yourself in another person's shoes, even if that person has hurt you - and does not take away from your anger towards them. You understand the hurt they create because deep down, you appreciate the hurt you inadvertently or purposefully put forth. 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

One quick question-- have you ever posted under the Internet handle "shaman"?

No. What does that have to do with this?

-Larry

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

>”Actually, the sociopath is starting to bore me.”

This dismissive comment shows me that I am not really going in circles but making real progress toward where I want to be.

Last year I would have flamed the crap out of this person. They would have seen rage written in a way that they had never seen before. I would have insulted them, their family, their friends, and anyone that they had walked by on their way to wherever they were. I would have seriously lashed out with the most profane display of vulgarity you could imagine. They certainly would have regret their rudeness and in the end I may have regret making an ass of myself.

Six months ago I would have been verbally dismissive in return. I would have said something like “who gives a rat’s ass?” or “I’m not here to amuse you”. Perhaps I would have said something belittling to make the person feel as though their comment really didn’t matter.

It doesn’t matter, to be honest with you, but I don’t have to tell them that. :) Today, normally I would just ignore it. But it really does show me that I have made progress with my anger and that I can maintain my composure even when someone else is disrespectful or dismissive toward me.

The anonymous angry person didn’t intend to contribute but they certainly did. I thank them. :) :) Ps., You have no way of knowing whether or not they intended to contribute...

-Larry

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Larry- Dan again. I am going to answer the questions that you posed to me, as well as add some comments which I think will be helpful. I would however, recommend that you reread the entirety of the posts that I sent you if you have not done so, not just the parts that cause you to react instantly. Good for you for questioning my post, by the way, that's what this process is all about, building a dialogue, and no one person is finally "right". Anyway, here we go.......

(Lined starting ">" are usually Larry's words that I (Dan) am responding to, and when there is ambiguity, because Larry left in my original questions, or I left in Dr. Irene's comments to Larry, I make every attempt to clarify who is talking. All my comments in this current post, me responding to Larry, are the lines starting without any ">". I apologize for any confusion, I don't know how to make the different comments different colors for greater ease of reading this.) You can't do the colors bit... Sorry.

>Dan, thanks for the response, and for clearing up >my name mix up.

Not a problem :)

>I can understand how you are confused about me, as >I am every bit as confused about myself. That's a start.

>I'm not sure I understand why it makes you feel the >way you do.

I claim no control over my feelings, only over my behaviors--- there is no why for me. Feelings happen to me...... I then react to them. If you wanna know the specifics, I'm a little scared of you. My feeling is that you have a lot of dangerous anger boiling up inside of you. Again, I have no control over my feelings whatsoever, I have a whole lot of control over how I convey them with my behaviors, or if I convey them at all. It's my judgment call. Read Dr. Irene's Turning Point, Giving Up Control, on the distinction between feelings and behaviors.

>Two passages from an ancient piece of Chinese >philosophy come to mind. (The Art of War by Sun >Tzu)

>"Do not oppose those who would not contend."

Again, the important thing for me is that I acknowledge that I have these things of opposition towards you, which are, as you point out, irrational. I can't do anything about it, Larry. It's like having a limp. My brain just reacts to things, and I just kinda sit there and watch the show. Learning to do just this has been a year and a half learning process for me, anchored by the principles in Jeffrey Schwartz's book "Brain Lock", which actually gives you a step by step method to accept what you cannot change about your thoughts and feelings. But now I delve into my personal story, let us continue..........

>Even if I am just pulling a hoax (A very time >consuming hoax) it would mean no harm to you.

>Dr. Irene responds: He knows that. He is just >trying to help you.

>Actually you would benefit from it either way >because these are all learning experiences.

Did you not read the last sentence I wrote in my last post, because what I said was that I had a lot of fun responding to you, Larry, whether your problem was real or fictional. From the ultimate standpoint, what are we all but narratives of our own making anyhow? (OK, I do fancy myself a writer, everyone can groan collectively at that last bit if they wish!!!!!)

>Doctor Irene is giving very good advice that would >benefit anyone who reads it, not just me.

This statement is true........Dr. Irene's advice to you would and does benefit anyone who reads it with an open mind.

>Also, my situation is of no consequence to your >life whatsoever.

Sorry pal, don't buy it. Especially since you run an office with lots of people, your behavior affects a lot of lives. And your employees' behaviors affects other peoples' lives, which leads to other people......eventually it gets to me, trust me. We are all tiny little pieces of one puzzle, the human puzzle.

>Second:

>"Make no travels without great benefit."

>¡§Nervous, insecure, angry, hesitant, unsure, and >ready to lash out. That's a long row to hoe, >brother! That's a lot of needless stuff to be >juggling around in your noggin too. Especially when >it is over some anonymous dude on the net. What >benefit is it to you to wonder, and wonder, and >wonder? What benefit is it to anyone if you wonder >about me?

>Dr. Irene responds to Larry with: I think you miss >the point.

Larry, I am a mess. But now I let myself be a mess. I used to always criticize myself for being a mess. Maybe someday I won't be a mess. But that day may never come. I was abused as a kid in a number of ways. It messed me up for a long while. Also, I just think differently than other people. Maybe because I'm left handed, I don't know. But for years I hated myself, thought no one understood etcetera. I only liked me when I was winning awards, when I was handsome, tall, good-looking. This equation worked till high school ended. Then in college, I wasn't the best anymore, and the bubble burst. Boy, did it burst. So I am a mess. Damnit, I love that mess :) :)

>What exactly is your preconceived notion of >reality? What is reality for that matter? This >perplexes me as well, as I wonder if the response >to my situation would have been different had I >done a switcheroo on the genders. What if I posed >myself as a female and my ex-wife as a male? >Reality is relative, and certainly is more so on >the Internet where it can be easily manipulated.

>Dr. Irene responds to Larry with: Oh please, don't >go here.

WOW! EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT POINT! It just so happens that today, as I was reading one of your follow-up posts, it clicked in my head "Gee, Larry sounds like........the stereotypically abused woman! Apparently, according to his posts, he does virtually nothing wrong, his wife is the prototypical monstrous man, straight out of Patricia Evans "Power Over" abuser mold! Larry claims that he "abuses" his wife by "controlling" her, but it sounds like that's just another thing his wife accused him of, as Larry can give us no concrete examples whatsoever of his EVER having actually tried to control his ex-wife. It sounds like poor Larry is completely dominated by her, up to the point where she even convinces him that HE IS THE ONE BEING ABUSIVE, WHEN HE IS DOING NOTHING ABUSIVE WHATSOEVER"! Sounds like she is even distorting his own reality, the poor guy" LARRY IS THIS TRUE? Are you really a saint, trying to hold everything together, even taking on the role of "abuser" in order to keep the peace? If so, and you buy into this, you were and are abused far more severely than you realize!!!!!!! Deal with this immediately, really! I don't mean run to the nearest shrink, I mean stay on the website with us, read "Facing CoDependence" by Pia Mellody, (good stuff about reality distortion there) please help yourself!

But, as you so aptly point out, so much is unknown, especially in the cyber world. I really do not have enough information. However, if I am right, please keep in touch with Dr. Irene (perhaps you are already) and help yourself, help yourself, help yourself.

>Now for some of your questions:

>Dan had asked:Do you know what the problem is?

Sorry, my bad, this question was a rhetorical device. What I meant was, "Do you know what my problem is, in trying to get a read on you?"

>Obviously I know what some of my problems are. I've >dealt with them and moved on. But I'm at the point >now where I am not sure what is a problem and what >is not. I've actually come a very long way with >this. I'm not saying that I am at the end of my >journey because I don't know where that is, but I >am certainly a long way from the beginning.

I like to hear this......Is there an end to the journey?

>I'm not sure what more there is to tell about >myself that I haven't already told. I'm really not >that complex, and I think my only issue is that I >am bad with relationships.

Well, to me relationships are very, very important. How about you?

>I have one failed marriage to my discredit,

Another way of putting it: You had a life lesson, you did the best you could at the time, now you are going to try to do WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU, from now on :)

>a list of ex-girlfriends a mile long, and my only >friends pretty much match the criteria for ASPD too!

THAT'S RIGHT, LOOK THE EVIDENCE SHOWS YOU'RE LOUSY, YOU HAVE LOUSY FRIENDS, YOU'RE A FLOP WITH GIRLFRIENDS, YOU'LL NEVER CHANGE! YOU HAVE A LIFELONG "REPRESSED SOCIOPATH" LABEL STAMPED ON YOUR FOREHEAD IN PERMANENT INK, A SCARLET LETTER! LET'S JUST WRITE YOU OFF! do you believe what you just read? Do you criticize yourself for the past? You don't have to! That's a choice you make, believe it or not.

>I am detached with myself though. I guess it is a >mechanism I use to keep my rage in control. I >distance myself from everything, including myself.

>Dr. Irene responds to Larry with:Yes. But, if you >want to reach the end of this journey, you stop >this

>It is like I am running my life from the safety of >my living room via a play station.

Ouch. I've been there. It is painful. Do you think you could sit down for a few minutes, and ask yourself what it is your afraid of? Be careful, and it's ok to stop if it gets too painful. But this might help...... although this is exactly the sort of thing that a lot of people like to do with a trusted therapist. I, personally, have such severe trust issues, that I am only able to do this by myself.....it's only far later I tell anyone else. But that's me.

>You can't hurt me, you can't anger me, you can't do >anything because it's like I'm not really there.

What kind of life is this? I used to read constantly, so I have a book to recommend for this comment as well. Try reading Alexander Lowen's "Narcissism"....... he really goes into detail on people who feel emotionally dead......

>That leads right into the next question:

>Dr. Irene responds to Larry with: Well, first... >Nobody can hurt you. Nobody can anger you. Nobody >can do anything to you - because these are all >things one can only do to oneself. But, you don't >know this. And, empowering others with this great >power to hurt you, anger you, trick you, etc., you >defend yourself by cutting yourself off. Your >disconnection strategy only hurts you... You are >protecting yourself from imagined harm and don't >see where the real power rests.) Right on!!!

>Dan's had asked: What does this mean? What, >does it mean that you have no feelings?

> I do have feelings. I just have them differently >than other people. If I win I'm happy, if I lose I >try harder to win the next time. It's as if there >are no negative consequences for me. That is a good >thing sometimes, but it is a problem in certain >situations. We live in a society of rules and >regulations and I can't go running roughshod >through the streets feeding whatever impulse comes >to mind. I do have strong impulses and sometimes >they do slip through... I own my behavior but I >haven't completely mastered it yet.

>Dr. Irene responds with: Yes, correct. And you >cannot begin to master it without connecting first >with the self.

Jeez, Larry, what is it you want to do? What deadly destructive urges are you holding back? It's ok to write it down, you know. Writing and doing are not the same thing. Look at Stephen King, he has all these sick, bizarre thoughts, but he gets it out on the page, and people love it! Look, we're a weird species, man, there's a lot of good and a lot of bad in all of us! IN OUR THOUGHTS, we can be murderers, and we can be saviors! But it's what we do, actually do that counts.

>Dan had asked: What do you feel, right now, as you read this? Rage, despair, nothing, blank, something that can't be explained in language, just some hazy >images? It's ok, man, whatever it is, it's ok. Stay >with whatever it is. (Dr. Irene says :) )

>I feel absolutely nothing. It just causes me to >reflect inward and try to explain what I see. Not >as proof that I am "normal¨ or "abnormal" but >rather to understand more about myself.

>Dr. Irene responds with: You cannot understand as long as you remain disjointed.)

Confusion......are you explaining things away, or are you being honest? Perhaps you aren't looking in the right direction--- ever tried Insight Meditation?

>Dan had asked: Do you see your ex-wife trying to justify her tirades?

>Yeah, you should see the email I just got. She >visited the board like I asked, but apparently has >nothing constructive to add. I don't care though.

>Dr. Irene responds: Yes you do. Otherwise, you >would not have asked. You would not have written >the letter you wrote. Wake up. You do care, buddy.

>Larry: She can rant and rave all she wants. Call >me every name she can think of, it doesn't matter. >This isn't about her and it is no longer "Our" >dirty laundry I am airing. It's mine.

>Dan had said: Just make sure that you keep other >people safe, and try not to scare anybody >unnecessarily.

>Larry had responded: Hahahaha.

Larry, what's that supposed to mean? Again, what are you holding back?

> Dr. Irene: Larry The joke's on you kiddo. 

Indeed.

Keep working at all this, Larry. The only fight lost is the fight not fought. Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Dan: thanks for the response. Next to Dr. Irene your posts cause me to reflect inward on myself the most. They also sort of force me to be in touch with myself otherwise I would just laugh and fluff some of the stuff off.

I pose a few questions and comments in return:

>My feeling is that you have a lot of dangerous anger boiling up inside of you.

The human is the most dangerous animal on the planet. There is nothing alive that we can’t kill and nothing inanimate that we can’t destroy. We’re all dangerous and everyone has anger inside of them. I know better than to let it boil though. I exercise, I train, I involve myself in a lot of hobbies where I can take out my aggressive tendencies in a positive manner. I’ve used my negative energy to my advantage and I am proud of some of my accomplishments. Unfortunately I have also let some of that energy cause harm to both others and myself. The accomplishment that I will be most proud of is to overcome that very tendency.

>>Also, my situation is of no consequence to your life whatsoever. >Sorry pal, don't buy it. Especially since you run an office with lots of people, your behavior affects a lot of lives. And your employees' behaviors affects other peoples' lives, which leads to other people... eventually it gets to me, trust me. We are all tiny little pieces of one puzzle, the human puzzle.

**Stands up to see if Dan is really Ray, his employee who spends as much time on the net as him**

No, that can’t be. If you did work for me you would know that the inmates run this prison. That’s a bad word to use because this place is a prison for no one. I have a very unique and very effective method of managing my best people. Leave them alone. They are responsible for their own destiny here. They have their own clients, if they lose them then they suffer the consequences. You know what Dan? They perform flawlessly. A few of them are monsters out there, they don’t just perform their duties they conquer them! I developed this method through EMPATHY. I would hate to have a boss nagging over me, tugging my reigns, telling me be here at 8am and don’t leave until 5pm. They come in when they want, they leave when they want, they wear what they want. As long as they don’t embarrass the company I don’t say a word about it.

I have a few bad seeds but I have an issue with tossing them out.

>This equation worked till high school ended. Then in college, I wasn't the best anymore, and the bubble burst. Boy, did it burst. So I am a mess. Damn it, I love that mess :)

I know that feeling all too well. When you are in that much of a structured environment it is easy to stroke your ego or have it stroked for you. It seems that once you hit the streets and the cold cruel world gets a whack at you that you suddenly realize that you’re not in Kansas anymore. When it happened to me I overcompensated. I picked up so many hobbies and activities that I ran myself ragged. If I didn’t succeed in all of them I became frustrated. I was like a tree that had so many branches that I couldn’t see the trunk anymore. I’ve “pruned” myself quite a bit.

Loving the mess is an important part. I don’t dislike myself. If I could come back as anyone or anything I would come back as me.

>… HE IS THE ONE BEING ABUSIVE, WHEN HE IS DOING NOTHING ABUSIVE WHATSOEVER"! Sounds like she is even distorting his own reality, the poor guy" LARRY IS THIS TRUE?

No Dan, you’re actually way off base. I’d like to call your attention to http://www.drirene.com/self_proclaimed_answers_questions.htm I’ve been a bad bad boy.

>I like to hear this......Is there an end to the journey?

We’re mortal. Everything comes to an end.

>Well, to me relationships are very, very important. How about you?

Of course they are. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here... I’d be living in a mountain villa letting my trusty servant, Igor, tend to my affairs.

>>I have one failed marriage to my discredit, >Another way of putting it: You had a life lesson, you did the best you could at the time, now you are going to try to do WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU, from now on :)

True. But I married some who is probably MORE messed up than I am and I ended up doing more damage to her. One should tread lightly on the roads that he travels. I left my footprints all over that poor girl, and yes I do feel REMORSE for doing it. Not only does she have to deal with her childhood issues that messed her up to begin with, but she has to deal with the damage I caused. I have to accept some culpability for the things I have done. I can’t just clean up my mess and have no one be the wiser. It’s my responsibility to make sure I realize exactly what I did and to make sure I don’t do it again. I’m not just doing this because I feel guilty because, as you’ve seen, I have hundreds of half-assed methods of whisking guilt right under the rug.

>THAT'S RIGHT, LOOK THE EVIDENCE SHOWS YOU'RE LOUSY, YOU HAVE LOUSY FRIENDS, YOU'RE A FLOP WITH GIRLFRIENDS, YOU'LL NEVER CHANGE! YOU HAVE A LIFELONG "REPRESSED SOCIOPATH" LABEL STAMPED ON YOUR FOREHEAD IN PERMANENT INK, A SCARLET LETTER! LET'S JUST WRITE YOU OFF! do you believe what you just read? Do you criticize yourself for the past? You don't have to! That's a choice you make, believe it or not.

And I know it! That stuff is my evidence which only I have the power to influence, and on the same token, no one has the power to “write me off”.

>Ouch. I've been there. It is painful. Do you think you could sit down for a few minutes, and ask yourself what it is you’re afraid of?

Yeah, actually I did it last night while I was out cycling. I have to admit that I really don’t have anything to be afraid of. I can’t come up with one valid answer! The closest I got was that I am afraid of what I don’t know. But I have the power to learn and to know whatever I want.

>What kind of life is this?

It’s a false shelter. It’s an act. The more I think about it the more needless it seems. I can’t explain it very well right now but I will figure it out after my ride tonight. Dr. Irene’s comment about “pulling in my buttons” suddenly became so obvious just now.

>Jeez, Larry, what is it you want to do? What deadly destructive urges are you holding back?

I’m planning on building a death ray on the moon and holding the world hostage until they pay me the sum of ONE MILLION DOLLARS! Okay, that wasn’t too original but it’s all I can come up with.

I have no deadly destructive urges, Dan. Just building a better beast. (me)

Confusion......are you explaining things away, or are you being honest? Perhaps you aren't looking in the right direction--- ever tried Insight Meditation?

>>Larry had responded: Hahahaha. >Larry, what's that supposed to mean? Again, what are you holding back?

No, it struck me as funny.

>Dr. Irene: Larry The joke's on you kiddo. 

Indeed.

I must have missed this joke. I really didn’t get this part. There is nothing funny about this stuff Larry. Absolutely nothing. That's why the joke's on you.

-Larry

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Larry- Dan Here.

Hmmm......... You know Larry, I read the answers to the questions, and I'm still like that commercial in the 80's, except instead of "Where's the beef?" it's like "Where's the abuse?".

Maybe I am too much like you, so I have my own blind spots, my own antisocial, or whatever, but based on your follow-up...... You acted normally, normally, normally! Certainly within the range of normality. If your emails about your ex are accurate, she has a mental illness, man. A mental illness. This has got ZERO to do with you. But you keep going and blaming yourself. Brother, you don't make that much of a difference!!! Listen, if you weren't in her life all these years, where do you think she'd have been? In some sort of healthy relationship? NOT!!!!   :)

Larry- Dan Here.

Scuse Me- Listbot cut off my eloquence here, gotta go from here again. This girl you love, for all you know, you could have been the best thing for her through the years.... sure you're not truly healthy.....but if you had been, you wouldn't have gone near her!!!!!!!! Listen, she may have ended up with an abuser who slapped her silly, and don't scoff because believe me this could have happened! She has a poor sense of boundaries. You, Larry, may have SAVED her from that fate, and you actually may have SPARED her suffering, in contrast to your feeling that you ADDED to your suffering. :)

You keep comparing yourself to the absolute best, as I used to! What about the worst? You know better than most humans, what the worst is. You have seen "men" play fucking volleyball, with the severed head of your friend in Somalia. You have actually been in hell. And as you say, you splattered that hell, blew them away. No judgment from me on that, either way. I'm a young punk--- Uncle Sam never made me put on a uniform, and grandpa had enough dough that I didn't have to go for financial reasons, or to afford college, whatever. So I'm not gonna judge where I haven't been, alright? My question to you, however, is this: Are you willing to realize, that you are not those men who were playing with your friends fucking severed head, that you are better than that? But are you willing to realize, also, that that could have been you, using EMPATHY as you say, and insofar as those soldiers were a part of our human race, that any of us could be in their says, given the right conditioning, the right training, the right pain? Are you willing to realize both these things? But why do I suspect that you know all these things already, Larry? Why do I suspect that this whole exercise with Dr. Irene, and now with me, is just one more game for you to declare victory in? Same here, Dan. I mean, you are obviously massively intelligent, and no matter what I tell you, you seem to already know and understand what I was going to say. I really like how you talk and write. But I just disagree with your basic premise for being here on the site. You say you are here because you have crummy relationships. I'm sure this is true, but I look at you and I see a brilliant, intellectual, athletic man who stakes his life on being correct. ????????

My theory, take it or leave it: If we weren't taken care of adequately as children, we have a neglected inner child inside of us forever, that is screaming at us, raging to get out. If we don't let it out, that child will punish us, and punish us, and punish us, just as we have punished him or her by trapping him or her.

All fine and well, and I'm full of crap, right? Well, no, actually......but the hard part is realizing that........the inner child is not who we think he (in your case) is!!!! In actuality, he is all the parts of us that were forced to shut off through the years! In many ways, the inner child is a photo negative of our idealized self. Example: do you think you're really smart, read Sun Tzu and all? Well, your inner child HATES Sun Tzu, and would rather go out and play. You wish you hadn't "hurt" your ex, or whatever? Well, your inner child wants to last out at your ex-wife so badly, it can't see straight!! Inner child knows what it wants to do, trust me. It goes on and on and on...... the trick is, really finding inner child, your own. You may want to call him "Little Larry", or whatever, but it's gotta be your find. You gotta harness that energy, make it work for you instead of against you.

I am impressed by your abilities handling an office. No, I am not Ray. This exercise is getting stranger and stranger, as you pointed out, we are both just writing into the ether. I have my own unabashed agenda, to work in what I have been through, because it worked so well for me in my life. And to me, you Larry are just random bits of data, out of which I am cobbling together an identity. Likewise am I to you. For all you know I could be the world's first sentient machine. Anyway, the point is that I've written myself out about "you" (my image of you!), and you don't need any more help from me, you can just read my old emails. I'll keep checking the board, so if you have any new questions I'll be happy to answer, but I think we're done for now. Again, great luck, warrior!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See the film "Gladiator", if you haven't yet! D.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Dan, Larry here. Thanks for that last post. I’ve just spent the last hour and a half riding 1-mile loops while totally wrapped up in this. Suddenly I looked down and I had gone 21 miles in a damn circle. My mind was so caught up in this I don’t remember one of them. The abuse I’m guilty of can happen the same way. I didn’t set out with some malicious agenda to cause my ex grief, I just did it while not paying attention to my own behavior. I didn’t think about how my actions would make her feel. Just because she did it too doesn’t make it okay.

Yeah, I still think I am the best thing that ever happened to her. Unfortunately, at the time I thought I was so damn great that her sheer luck in landing a guy of my caliber would wash away the pain of her crappy childhood. I was an idiot! I didn’t understand anything about myself at the time so how could I expect to understand her? I will never know what is best for another adult. I may know what’s best for a child about to stick their tongue in a light socket but that’s as far as my omnipotence goes.

You’re right. She has never been in a healthy relationship. The guy before me beat her, the guy after me beat her. The guy she was dating until a week ago committed a federal felony against her and she won’t press charges! Those are the facts; I’ll spare you my speculation on the subject. (I know she’s reading this BTW)

Dan, the point is that this is not about her. This is about me and my bad behavior. Just because your ship is sinking doesn’t mean you should ram another iceberg!

>But are you willing to realize, also, that that could have been you, using EMPATHY as you say, and insofar as those soldiers were a part of our human race, that any of us could be in their says, given the right conditioning, the right training, the right pain?

I’ll give you that any man can be turned into a vicious animal given their surroundings and conditioning. I’ll never call them soldiers though.

So okay, I shot a whole bunch of humans that day. I admit it, I did it, they aren’t coming back, and they’re gone. But if I could pull those bullets back out of the air and give them their lives back; I wouldn’t. I don’t feel bad for doing it, I really think they deserved it, and I would do it again with the same machine-like efficiency. Dan, you aren’t asking me to have respect for them are you?

>But why do I suspect that you know all these things already, Larry?

Possibly because you know that I am putting a lot into this and making progress.

>Why do I suspect that this whole exercise with Dr. Irene, and now with me, is just one more game for you to declare victory in?

Maybe you are viewing me through your own contentious streak. I think you've missed the point. Bye Larry. Dr. Irene In order for there to be victory the chance of defeat must be present. There is no defeat in this.

>My theory, take it or leave it: If we weren't taken care of adequately as children, we have a neglected inner child inside of us forever, that is screaming at us, raging to get out. If we don't let it out, that child will punish us, and punish us, and punish us, just as we have punished him or her by trapping him or her. All fine and well, and I'm full of crap, right?

Oh no, not at all. Believe me, my counselor and I have had epic battles about the inner child. I used to cry bullshit and tell him he was dead-assed wrong. I challenged him to find one shred of abuse in my childhood. I figured he would go right for my parents and run into brick wall. I am lucky as hell in the parent department and I knew damn well that he wouldn’t find shit. Low and behold he found it. My mom whipped out letters, court documents, police reports, the whole nine yards. My negative conditioning had come from a teacher. I remember that she used to paddle me daily but I could also remember my bad behavior in return. I remember challenging her to hit me harder because the last strike was sub par. She would call me stupid and I would call her names right back. Send me to the principle and I’d give her the finger and not go. Other kids would bring her an apple, I’d bring her a dead bird.

At the beginning of the year I was afraid of her and she would break me down until I cried. Calling me “stupid”, “idiot”, telling me I should be in the class with the kids wearing the foam hats. I just couldn’t pay attention! That woman bent me into a sick little unit and by the end of the year I was her worst nightmare. I had to go confront her about a year ago. I did it with the principle present and I did it with all the stuff my mom had collected. The woman was still abusing kids and she had actually been fired and rehired after the teachers union sued. As I recounted the whole story she sat there with this horrified look on her face, It thought she was about to cry. I apologized for my bad behavior toward her and she thanked me, excused herself and hauled ass.

That pissed me off! The house she was living in was for sale. I thought about buying it just so I could evict her ass. I got over it.

Anyways, I get what you’re saying and I thank you. I’ve learned a lot from this.

Now go take care of that inner child and remember we’re all here talking about our bad points. Before you go telling anyone else that you are messed up think about how the good things outweigh the things you consider messed up. I’m sure you’ll find that they do.

-Larry

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Hi Larry,

I'm sorry you had to experience the atrocities of war. What the Somalis did to your friend is beyond awful....but it's all part of war.....and war is a living hell. My dad saw that kind of horror to. He lived in fox holes for 6 weeks at a time. He used to worry he wouldn't be able to stop scratching from the lice long enough to fire his guns. He did that for 2 years. He also experienced having his best friends brains brownout and landing all over him.. and not realizing it for 15 minutes cause he couldn't take his eyes off what he was aiming at. He also would perform euthanasia on his own men. That isn't ever written about. But it is done. Seeing men with their arms and legs blown off begging you to shot and put them out their misery...some of them are your buddies. He did it...but he hated the fact that it was necessary. He tells me each company had a few men who did this Of course no one ever admits to it or reports it...but they know it goes on.

At times he was constantly wet and stuck in mud during monsoon reason. Your are constantly uncomfortable and you always worry when your number is up next. Seeing all those god awful things is very hard on the psyche. The one thing I do notice about my dad is that if you touch him to wake him up...he jumps up startled. My mom says this is an improvement...he used to wake up ready to swing at you.

I could be wrong, but I think part of your healing will require coming to terms with having had to witness these horrors and with having to kill. For I believe anyone who has no remorse whatsoever for taking a human life lacks a conscience.. and those that don't have one are beyond help in my opinion. But I don't think you lack a conscience. I don't think the average person of your generation understands just what you went through.. of course I am guessing you are about 30. Good luck with dealing with the demons of having participated in war. Personally I think the horrors of war are ineffable. But others have to come to terms with it, so it is doable.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

All right, I’m detecting more and more hostility here so I am going to say this and bail before you guys crush my groove here. I wondered what the hell some of these comments that were out of the blue were about. I happened across the links to the other boards in the index.

I guess that some of you suspect that I am someone else who has been making rude comments. Even Dr. Irene agreed with Dan’s comment that she believes I have some other agenda here, as if this were a game. Whatever, I’ll move on.

But I still don’t get this: “ Blah blah blah... I can’t fire people... blah blah blah... It makes me feel bad... blah blah blah... Is that not Empathy?” I said I can’t do something because it makes me feel bad, then asked if it was no empathy.

Dr. Irene replied “Why mention it Larry?”

Huh? That doesn’t register as an appropriate response.

“It's too soon for you to go here... Don't rush. Empathy is about being able to put yourself in another person's shoes, even if that person has hurt you - and does not take away from your anger towards them. You understand the hurt they create because deep down, you appreciate the hurt you inadvertently or purposefully put forth. “

This goes right back to exactly what I was ASKING. I do have empathy. I don’t run amok each day hurting people just to please some inner demon. I shot a bunch of pricks, who deserved it, way back in 1993 and this makes me a monster? I think not. If I hurt somebody I feel bad. I do make an effort not to hurt people! I admit that I haven’t always been this way but people DO change. Even us MEN can change.

So then I see these comments posted from someone obviously trolling for a negative response. They are clearly being an ass-plug but it doesn’t get to me. I think cool. I make a comment about it that is probably one of the first POSITIVE things in this thread.

What’s the response?

“ :) :) Ps., You have no way of knowing whether or not they intended to contribute...”

Come on Doc, I wasn’t born yesterday! They were being asshole, and we all know it.

Then we have this exchange:

Dan: Just make sure that you keep other people safe, and try not to scare anybody UNNECESSARILY. Larry: Hahahaha. Dr. Irene: Larry The joke's on you kiddo.

Is it ever necessary to scare someone? Would it really be constructive of me to throw a fit, scream, yell, break things, just as long as everyone is safe and no one is scared UNNECESSARILY?

Get it? Is it really a joke? Am I really laughing?

This feels just like my “marriage counseling” session. The counselor took two factors into consideration. 1. I’m a man 2. I had been previously diagnosed as anti-social, so I automatically must be bad. Wow, those two aspects plus a bad relationship and I am suddenly a scary monster. Get the net, and call the circus! That kind of thinking is ludicrous!

So where does that leave us? It brings us full circle and drops us back off at:

“Why mention it Larry?”

I can’t offer you a single good reason. I don’t have a damn thing to prove.

I thank you all for your time. You’ve really helped me a lot and I appreciate it. Dr Irene, it’s a great site you run here.

-Larry

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

This is getting ridiculous. It's been real everyone. -Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

Dr Irene,

I am interested in finding healthful recipes online. I've always been a little scared of things like tofu and bean sprouts but I'm willing to give them a try. Standard cookbooks intimidate me (I'm not much of a cook to begin with). Do you know of any recipes/ sites that would help me out? Thanks.

Timid in Tulsa

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

I'm lost. Maybe I'm just a naive codependent, but I don't get why Dr Irene said good-bye to Larry. Apparently, Dan sees the same thing. I've learned something on all of these sites, but feel lost about what's happening with Larry. Can someone explain? Thanks. Sis

Sis, You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

This Larry guy isn't paying for his email advice, right? Nope. Free.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

>This Larry guy isn't paying for his email advice, right? Nope. Free.

Well, you get what you pay for, it seems...

I was just wondering if he would have been dismissed so easily if he was a paying customer. Apparently he wouldn't have been. It's understandable-- capitalism in action, one could surmise. Actually, he would have been "dismissed" a long time ago. The email advice option limits the writer to just a few pages...

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

>Sis, You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

Bro, You can lead a cliché to water, but you can't make the level-headed buy it...

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

I wondered the same thing. Dr Irene invited Larry to chat all he wants but as soon as he started to chat about what she didn't want, she dismissed him. No. Only when it became evident he was not interested in learning. I boot clients who are not ready to learn out of my practice too. Even though I get paid whether they learn or not. Imagine that!

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

Isn't extortion illegal in New York and New Jersey? It seems like this "Dr. Irene" of yours has a pretty good racket - lure in troubled people with the offer of freebies (kinda like a drug dealer...) and then urge them to pay $50 in "hush money" for each very personal email advice - giving the person doesn't want plastered all over the web. A mere $50 bribe for each email seems to ensure that the already emotionally needy and scarred person even gets a reply at all. Gee, Irene, why don't you just take your "patient's" money, drown their puppies, and kick their grandmothers? Actually Larry, its now $100, about the price of a therapy session, which the email takes more time than. I imagine you work for free?

Not only does this cyber-practice seem blatantly unethical, but the fact that the webmaster (Dr. Irene) profits monetarily from each and every Amazon book referral is also troubling. You bet! Not only do books yield a small percentage, but so does anything else bought on their site when having entered through this site. 

So make sure you buy those books and get that virtual advice because "baby needs a new pair of shoes"... (remember, all major credit cards accepted) Thanks for the plug Larry!

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

Larry, did you post the above about extortion? If you did, I'm starting to understand why Dr Irene said you can lead a horse to water, etc.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Larry is looking for someone to debate his favorite topic with. That topic being...himself. His posts are extremely long winded... repetitive.... sarcastic.. and argumentative. Given the opportunity he will bore everyone to tears but himself. ENOUGH OF YOUR BORING BS ALREADY!!!!!!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Yes, he throws a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Hello all. Amy here (you may know me from the yak boards). Just to clear up any confusion, I was the one who posted the post about Irene's extortion. I acted alone. I expressed my opinion. My opinion, not necessarily anyone else's. Before you accuse me of being Larry, well, I'm not. My name is Amy and I have never posted under anything but my real name.

I was curious so I counted the number of books on Irene's kickback Amazon links. Isn't eighty-five a bit greedy, Irene? It is actually quite sickening (in addition to certainly being a conflict of interest). Gee, Irene, why don't you ALSO drown your "patients", kick their puppies, and take their grandmothers' money to boot?

Sure, this is rather hostile of me but somebody had to say it. Dr. Irene's reign of terror and "patient" fleecing surely must be ha