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Comments for Catbox 9

Comments for Cat box 9

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Hi, it's B. again.

I can't keep up with so many posts, but I'm thinking about you, and saving the posts, for slow reading back on my computer.

It was my birthday on Friday, October 27, so now I really feel run down. I'm so old (39) Gee, I wish I was that "old"!, and still in the same struggle - dear H did not even meet a therapist once (not really his fault), so I can't really TALK to him. He is very helpful, very loving and almost not abusive, but I still do much more than he does and I feel soooooo tired and so un-helped.

Dr. Irene, I wanted to let you know that St. John's wort is NOT for pregnant or lactating women. Probably unnecessary info for most on this site, but very relevant for me: I am nursing, and I want another child... (can't seem to get it! I think my stomach has still too much stress and anger to make room for a baby...).  Yes. NO medication just about is for pregnant or lactating women. That's why it's important to check with your doctor before taking anything!

I love you all, and I'll be back (poor you...). B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Dear B, Hi the rest,

Gee B, Lucky us! We've missed you. I can't chat right now. Dan just found out that the trip out of town is a 14 day assignment and he needs food and clothes packed as they will be staying in cabins. Busy, busy and busy today.

Happy Birthday B. We have/had a lot of birthdays this month. Happy Birthday to the Cat Box.

Got to run. I read the posts and Dr. Irene and Trubble, Glad you are here. Thanks.

Love to everyone and Happy Day today, you are all in my thoughts.

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Dear all Not feeling too well after a day with C. Went to his place for breakfast as he had invited me. Didn't feel welcome though. I decided that could very well be my own insecurity, so I sort of ignored the feeling. But no hugs, just a little kiss, and hey are you there already. Made a joke about my new clothes, which I didn't appreciate, so I said I had promised myself to hit him if he would do anything like that. So then I did, laughingly, but even so. Then after breakfast we went for a ride in his new car and after a while he asked me would I like to drive. I did, so far so good. Praised the car etc Then he started how he hated Sundays and how boring going out for a ride was actually. He did say it in general, but I really felt rotten about it. After getting to his house again, I said, sorry I got you stuck with such a boring afternoon, I'll go now, and leave you to do whatever you wanted (I know, blackmail probably, but I really felt bad). No, no he said and started kissing me. We ended up in bed, but I really felt yukkie afterwards when I drove home (he had a dinner appointment elsewhere). I feel very yukkie and haven't the faintest idea how to handle this. It makes me feel all responsible again for him having a nice afternoon, and like it's all my fault if it wasn't. I know I should not see him if I don't feel welcome, but it's so hard to discern whether it are just my own feelings of insecurity, and thus something I should fight, or whether it is him not acting nice and friendly enough. Let's put it this way: If he appeared yukky and insecure, I think you might go out of your way to reassure him. That's not to say you don't have insecurity issues, but, it is likely you are being provoked. Bad feelings anyway and I don't like it. I think I might send him an e-mail and tell him I don't like this kind of behavior,, that it is not very respectful when you're touring with someone on a Sunday, to tell how you hate Sundays and touring on Sundays. Yep. Especially since he knows you and he knows how sensitive you are (and I mean "sensitive" in a GOOD way, as in perceptive.)

Dear Asha, sorry about your one-man turkey dinner. I would have loved to come over, but I don't eat turkey :-). Hope you will be able to work it out. We also have a hard time talking about difficult issues. We either ignore the whole issue or start to kiss and hug, when a difficult subject comes up, so we won't feel so separate. Some thought about Steve's trips and your being annoyed about them. I wonder do you think you get personal issues and work issues mixed up sometimes? Cause I think being annoyed when he makes your work harder by leaving at such short notice, you should tell him so, but don't get it confused with you being angry because of being left alone on a short notice personally. Must be hard to keep the two things separate, cause I can imagine them getting easily entangled. But I think it is very important to keep them separate.

Dear Jay, hope your husband will keep up the good work, who knows. Love to all of you. I don't have anything uplifting to say right now, so I'll just quit and have a yukkie evening all by myself with a glass of port and the cats. At least they appreciate my company :-).

Hope tomorrow will be brighter.

Love, AJ

 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Dear B, I posted before reading: happy belated birthday and glad to have you back. Love, AJ Us too!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Hello, all,

Just want to let you know that I have not disappeared. I've been reading the posts, but haven't felt to talkative. Happy belated birthday, B! Mine was Saturday, and as for being old, how would you like to be 46!? All I can think is "Four more years 'til 50!"

I had an unhappy birthday; failed miserable at disengaging. Plans to be with my parents feel through, and I panicked at the thought of spending an entire day alone with H. I've felt this way lately, I think because of all of the times over the years that I've been trapped away from home with him and his hostility. When I ask him to back off, he escalates, and I've had some awful experiences.

I made the mistake of telling him how I felt and we were on a slippery slope from there. (He'd been so "good," I thought I was safe, so I took the bait when he asked what was wrong).

We did recoup enough to go out to a late lunch, to a mall and bookstore, but when he noticed me crying again after we got home, he ripped me. I was so worn down, I engaged big time. He'd promised before we'd left that he wouldn't do that, and here he was--! I fell apart, sobbing and sobbing between yelling. I'm so embarrassed that I did that!

Today I have a monster tension headache. He apologized and asked me what I wanted him to do; said he'd "try to do better." I broke down again. I've heard that before. He asked me to tell him specifically what I wanted him to do; I did, but as of last night he was still saying that he would not go to therapy unless I paid for it. I won't pay for his therapy; I'm not that desperate! He's got to be more responsible than that! Yes. So, if he asks you what you want him to do, and you spell it out, and he still has a problem, well... Pull away!

Anyway, I feel like a total dud today. I can tell by, among other things, the way I burst into tears so readily, and the way I sob, from way deep down, that I'm near some crisis point. I don't know if he really cares, or not, but I do!

Hope all is okay with everyone else. Lynn, I'm so jealous! Moose in your yard! We had a deer in our backyard a few years ago. Very surprising as we live smack in the middle of town, practically, and it had to have jumped out tall fence. We usually get raccoons and possums. Years ago I heard a racket outside. a mama coon had brought her babies to play on our back porch. I looked out the window to see assorted babies climbing the stair rails and sitting on the window air conditioner!

Take care all,

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Hi all:

B - nice to hear from you. What if you do your share of the work, and then ask him to pay a housekeeper to cover his share? Would he be open to that?

That was an issue with Steve and I as well, which would have to be resolved if we ever lived together again.

Lynn: Dan is gone for 14 days? How will all of us 'codependents' survive without him?

Just realized I really hate that word - codependent - it's so disempowering.

Dear AJ

<<I feel very yukkie and haven't the faintest idea how to handle this. It makes me feel all responsible again for him having a nice afternoon, and like it's all my fault if it wasn't.>>

What about you? Did *you* have a nice afternoon?

<< I know I should not see him if I don't feel welcome, but it's so hard to discern whether it are just my own feelings of insecurity, and thus something I should fight, or whether it is him not acting nice and friendly enough.>>

You said you felt yukky - think about what makes you feel yukky and whether it makes sense to feel yukky, if you were to look at it closely.

<< Bad feelings anyway and I don't like it. I think I might send him an e-mail and tell him I don't like this kind of behavior,, that it is not very respectful when you're touring with someone on Sunday, to tell how you hate Sundays and touring on Sundays.>>

I don't think that telling him he's disrespectful will help. Think of it from an "I" perspective. I felt unwelcome. I felt uneasy because you were saying you were bored. I was getting mixed messages from you - you hate touring on Sundays, but yet that's what you chose to do with me. I don't enjoy being around you when you say you are bored and disinterested with my company. In future, I won't choose to stay when you say these things.

much more empowering than - You are disrespectful. You make me mad. You are arrogant etc. etc.

<<Dear Asha, sorry about your one-man turkey dinner. I would have loved to come over, but I don't eat turkey :-)>>

Are you vegetarian? I eat birds and fish, but no other kinds of meat. :)

<<Some thought about Steve's trips and your being annoyed about them. I wonder do you think you get personal issues and work issues mixed up sometimes?>>

this is possible. though the trips are a personal choice.

<<Cause I think being annoyed when he makes your work harder by leaving at such short notice, you should tell him so, but don't get it confused with you being angry because of being left alone on a short notice personally.>>

Yes, it's more to do with what I think about once he's gone on such short notice. "Oh no, he was supposed to call so and so" or things like that. I don't have time to think about these things when I'm told at the very last minute.

<< Must be hard to keep the two things separate, cause I can imagine them getting easily entangled. But I think it is very important to keep them separate.>>

Sometimes the trips are personal trips, so there are 2 elements to them, but I agree with you.

<<I don't have anything uplifting to say right now, so I'll just quit and have a yukkie evening all by myself with a glass of port and the cats. At least they appreciate my company :-).>> Cuz cat-humans are smart!

Or you could come over and have some brussel sprouts and mashed potatoes? And Halloween candy for dessert? Your cats might enjoy the turkey. Think about it, and come on over if you feel like it.

take care all

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Becky

we were posting at the same time. (((hugs)))

It's my birthday too in a couple of weeks. What is it about that, is it our sun signs that put us all in this situation?

Wierd.

hang in there girlie. I'll send some positive vibes your way.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Another aside.

The trips Steve is taking do help him make money, which he really can use right now, and I understand and support that. I don't think our current issues are really to do with the trips, except that he does forget to ask me if I need anything from him work wise. I just mentioned it because I was trying to examine all the reasons I might have been upset.

I think that there are a whole gamut of issues that I am bothered by. This is where it gets complicated, because it started with one and now there are more issues to deal with.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

D ear All. This is the fourth time today I've written a long post and somehow managed to lose it - me pressing wrong buttons and not the site. I am just going to say Have a lovely day everyone and happy birthday B. If you are old then I am ancient (45).

and Becky your birthday sounds a bit like mine. I refused to celebrate it as I was so tearful and wound up. Had to give in in the evening as my best friend came round with a cake and meal.

My daughter is still not in touch with me. I got weepy today and had to stop myself buying her things. You can't give rewards to someone who has physically attacked you. I just hope she gets out of this phase again soon and falls out with everyone else.

Still puzzled by my husband. He told me to leave today. Then I said that I would but we needed to discuss it and he refused. Then he made me a cup of tea and has been pleasant since. Actually, I don't think I could really care less. The other weird thing is I put a bill of rights from a book on assertiveness on the door. Usually he would take this down, but this time he hasn't.

He spent the day doing housework...................!!!!!!!!!! even defrosted the fridge. I wish I knew why I feel so unnerved by this. Is he practicing to be on his own? Or does he just want to do his bit and am I being unfair. This has only happened since we have really fallen out.

It makes me feel somehow I am not good enough. Inadequate. Fearful.

Which means the childhood rejection tape is playing again. After all this is the year 2000 and if I can go back to work it will be really helpful if the housework and meals are shared.

Maybe the issue is mine and not his.

My real issue is that both my husband and daughter are throwing all their rage and anger at me and I know I am the scapegoat, But what on earth do you do to not be one?

Not accept their anger. ......How? How do you not be affected by what you find upsetting? Maybe you just get out of the way and cry alone so they can't see.......

Anyway, even if I don't know how, for both my children's sake I am finding out how.

Sorry, another post - ramble. Thinking out in the written word.

Lynn, 14 nights without Dan. It seems ages to me. I'm glad you saw the mooses ?what is the plural of moose? You seem one very strong person.

Dr. Irene, most of my posts were written before your email to me. Trubble if you stow away to England you can stay here and have trout in jam sauce. If Dr Irene explains what jam sauce is. We don't have that here. My parents in law have a whole swimming pool full of trout! love, Jay

So I feel weird. Like I am no longer used to

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 29, 2000

S1

Jay:

Send your hubby over here, my house could use the cleaning. He can defrost the fridge here too. :)

I would rather have this problem than the opposite. But I'm sure there is a reason for what you are feeling. What do you think his true intentions are? To clean the place, to share the household work, or to push a button? Or maybe something else.

If you can let go of your button around this, you might be able to enjoy it!

Also, I think if you act out of your higher strength (which is obvious that you have from your posts here), it will be harder and harder for you to get 'scapegoat'. Maybe on some level you were accepting their blame, which made it easier for them to blame you.

take care Jay

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

From the songs-stuck-in-one's-head department:

There is a fairly recent song getting much airplay on my usual station that is making me want to cry when I hear it. I think it's called "Wonderful" and I'm not sure which band sings it, but there is this one line in the chorus that just sticks with me:

"Promises mean everything when you're little and the world is so big."

Last time I heard it, I thought of Lynn's NOT MY DOG post.

Being lied to is an icky nasty horrible thing. Especially when it's about something serious. I was fortunate that my parents would never have tried to pull any variant of the not-my-dog thing on me -- admittedly, sometimes things went too far in the other direction, but I do like that I was "the little person" to my parents (especially Dad) even as a baby. And they didn't DO the "now this won't hurt a bit..." or anything like that. No stork stories for me, either. A picture book explaining where babies came from appeared in with the rest of my books at some point when I was fairly little.

I remember feeling sort of offended when, to cover up for putting onion soup (which her kids said they didn't like) into a meat loaf, the woman who usually babysat for me (Mommy #2) told her kids that she put GLUE in it! And they ate it up, literally and figuratively. This just disturbed me somehow; I was seven or eight at the time, and by that age was helping my parents go grocery shopping and make dinner. I was also in wannabe-nun phase and (I don't actually remember doing this, but my mother thinks it's funny and still tells the story) apparently told Mom #2's kids "Be grateful you have a hot meal to sit down to!"

I *was* a self-righteous little brat in those days, I guess. :)

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Hi all, the new positive won' t be a scapegoat and will let my husband carry on with the cleaning if he gets a kick out of it new me here.

Thanks Asha. Your words make sense and I am feeling strong.....I will enjoy it. you mean my higher strength is obvious. ....I keep getting told I am strong. I am going to live up to my reputation! I have no idea about my husband's motivation at all. If someone deliberately creates a fog, then they don't want you to see what they are doing.

The blocking thing is what happens all the time between us. He is the actor who continually blocks. Conversations go nowhere.

Dr. Irene. I am starting to like cleaning my own cat boxes. I may even get a cat. :)

Trubble I will feed it trout and jam sauce.

Wow, I have a whole load to feel down about and to be sad about but I am functioning o.k.

I recommend Ginkgo Billboard with Ginseng. In addition to the Kava.

Becky. I don't know if this helps you but my husband can only hurt me if I accept his hurt. You are such a lovely person and I am praying your crisis if it happens is creative.

Scary strong gales here. The train station is shut. Trees down. Floods. Roofs ripped off....The south has no power and people injured. Lots of flood warnings for the rivers down here. I am glad that I live higher up the road than the river is likely to rise. sunshine and showers and less wind for this afternoon. Isn't that like life. So quickly it changes?

Just kept calm in a metaphorical storm; wish I didn't have the feelings inside though. But it feels a good challenge to be coping with them.

Yes, Dr Irene I am changing.........I told you I move fast.

Love to you all, Jay

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene, Trubble and the rest of us. Lynn here and I'm going to be totally selfish and just post two things about me. Good! I've read the rest, the blue pencils and I do have thoughts, cheers, prayers and comments to a bunch, but it's 4 AM and I can't sleep so I'm trying to get healthy.

Dan had to go out of town and wasn't sure how long. Got a call yesterday that it was a 2 week job long ways away and probably not an access to a phone. We do this all the time. Just not like now ..... working here and on us.

Anyhow, we were both doing things yesterday, I mentioned the new tub in the room and over the drain, just not connected. I started cleaning and vacuuming (hoovering :) and I feel myself getting miffed. "Nothing" "Ever" gets finished around here! Stopped that and asked Dan to please get some trim and finish the woodwork, etc. He said OK, so OK. Thought I was ok with it. Then he asked me to please not finish installing the tub till he got home, because he started it and he wanted to finish it. I was fine with that, too. Then he started watering plants and came out and started in on which plants had water in them and which ones didn't and which ones he watered and why he didn't others and on and on and I (I hope this is a form of disengage) said, "Don't do this to me again. I was gone for two weeks and you started in on me and now you are going to be gone for two weeks so please don't start this again." Much better.

He left the room, engaged me a little by asking what I wanted done with the leftover stuffing and I said I didn't care.

Premature maybe Dr. Irene, but I said that there was so little of me left that I didn't need any more of this. I'm ready to get on to the next step. I don't want to spent the rest of my life "on guard" watching for these. Ok, kiss goodnight and don't know what, but this is strange to me, like I'm afraid I'll hurt his feelings (my mother). I felt strangely better, but totally unfamiliar doing this.

Re: Your blue pencil to my October 23rd post. Write down why I  I'm (grin, now I'm stuttering on paper) afraid to let go. I'm happier than all the cats in Egypt to let this go. I feel like I've had 4 years of Dan's telling me he'd go to therapy if I'd go with him. He'd do the workbook if I'd help him. He wouldn't read Bradshaw if I couldn't guarantee I would stay with him, because if I didn't promise to stay with him, what was the use of him doing all this work. So I think I've stuck it out trying to help "us." I can't. There is so little of me left that I don't feel like I can help myself tonight (I'll get strong again). I don't want to hold his hand through this, I can't fix this. 

If I put this into words, I think I'm starting to resent being the reason he'll do this. I feel like the scarier (sp?) this gets for him the more he lays on me and the more I take on and I don't like feeling like I should be responsible for his mental health. I'm not. This brings up real yukky attached at the hip withdrawals. Right. Because he can't put something on you that you don't accept, but you already see that.

His sister especially, and that is why I love this site. Dan has never shared any of this stuff with anyone but me before. Empathy (can't spell that either) once or twice, but really! I just ain't helping him get over this one and I was elated he got into this with the new lady. I'm happy he said it was ok for him to go without me. I wish I was healthy enough to have told him this 5 years ago.

I know he laid it on me (wrong) and I took it (two wrongs), but in retrospect, my going with him was preferable (in my thinking) than him not going at all and when he went a time or two alone he dropped out. We'd go back and then he'd go once and drop out again.

Getting way too wordy again, but I really have the need to vent. I think I've hated feeling responsible for his well being. I think I resent the "I'll do it for us." I resent the "I'll go if you'll come with me."

You asked why I was afraid to let him go? Just from the gut feelings, I'd be as happy as Trubble eating Salmon if he'd go and stick with it. I think if he goes and when it gets tough and if he starts laying it on me again I say NO and start to clean my own Cat Boxes. (And now he has to cancel for at least 2 more weeks).

I truly don't like feeling like it's my responsibility for US. Again, I know I took it, but it doesn't mean I liked it.

Brief subject change as I find myself very angry (at myself). One Moose or 13 Moose. Moose is Moose, unless we're talking Catnip moose (the French call it mousse). The same with crèche .... It costs $25 to buy a Nativity Set with the manger. $125 if you buy a Nativity set with a crèche. As for prat. One of my mothers dirtiest words. Tushie as in prat fall.

Ok, enough, back to I'm so angry that I did this to myself. I'm going to be 54 in a couple of weeks (got a bunch here) and I can learn new tricks, but I don't want to waste any more time. I don't want to die of Old Age still posting in the Cat Box. 

Moral. I truly hope Dan goes and sticks is out this time. I really think I need my own shrink. If Dan doesn't follow through I may have to see if Trubble wants to hitch his wagon to my broomstick and off we'll go flying with the Blue Angels or something. Anytime MommyDoc2!

5:23 AM and I still don't feel tired, just strung out ... 

Lynn

 

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene,

Lynn still here wide awake and just re read what you blue penciled to me.

I am so terribly depressed and I think the only way I can explain it is to say that I don't like Dan like this at all. I mean throwing this at me. This doesn't absolve me from taking it, but I think I kept going and kept pressuring and kept pushing is in the hopes that he would go to counseling and stick it out because I really and truly don't like him at all and the more I withdraw when he gets dependent on me, the further I withdraw and it is a vicious circle. Yet because I love him I see the potential and know how good he can be. I simply can't make him good for me (Lord knows, I've tried). He has to make him good for me.

This is a silly thought (maybe), but I feel I've been getting better. The living room looks like a room today and not someone's storage shed. Anyhow, I've been doing things I've neglected for a long time. Could this be threatening to Dan? I'm not an analyst, but is co dependence better than no dependence, because I feel like he's trying to drag me down. Sort of like if I fix my own tub (I can) and clean our own house I won't need him anymore? I can really feel the pressure, yet I don't know what's going on or why. I just don't want to get back into a 3 day depression and I feel myself slipping ... I didn't like the pressure the minute I got home and I don't like the pressure the minute he's leaving. Please go see the shrink without him...

Sorry guys, wallowing in a pity party here and I want to try and talk myself out of it. I haven't forgotten you and you all have my Love and Prayers. I wish someone had my headache and tears. Now that WAS selfish, you do. Poop.

Is this the point Dr. Irene? I don't have to know why he's messin' with me. I just have to know he's messin' with me and know it's not about me? Bingo!

Ok, so where do I go and what do I do here? This feels ? (can't find a word) ?

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene.

I just read your blue pencil on posts 8. I wasn't mad at you about the depression thing at all. Just answering the question I knew you would ask. I didn't mean to exclude you from my love either! Sorry. Nor going to have a guilt trip about screwing that up......

for creche read child care facility. Usually alongside a course.

I wouldn't do the psychology just yet as I would want to take it too far at this point in my life and I just don't think you should get into doing therapy for others if you do it to help get your  life sorted. I know I would want to go down that road. (Getting to be the psychologist, I mean). First I need to finish my research MA.

I wasn't going to but now I think I will.

Even if I never submit the thing.

Just for me.........

I am trying hard about my daughter. Still no contact and I have learnt that the only option is for her to stay in a bed and breakfast. it is near where we live and the situation is unlikely to change for a bit. I will give it a week and then write to her. She seems so set on not seeing me just now - but that is according to my husband.

I am ignoring a cat and mouse game now. But I am no longer the mouse so the cat will find it has been chasing air. - Sorry Trubble sure you catch the real thing. Hope this doesn't sound too crazy.

One minute I get treated well and the nest minute I don't as if he can't make up his mind. Mine is made up I am no longer the mouse I have evolved and become a cat too. Only I am choosing to be a pedigree and get treated well. Trubble we can share the trout.. ...

Sorry feeling like playing.......

Oh yes Lynn - I didn't mean Nativity sets!!! We have those too and call them mangers. See my post for Dr. Irene. Now I know about the mooses.

But seriously I think it is time Dan did stand on his own feet and go to the therapy for himself. At least he decided to go to this new therapist originally if you went or not. I really feel for you with the not sleeping bit as I did that 4.am thing or earlier for a long while. (What did we do before the computer?).

It seems to be connected with unresolved anger with me. What I have found is that it helps to have every possible relaxing oil. fragrance, bath oil, candle, pillow with herbs, prayers to read, things to sniff around handy for when I wake up. I got to know about "Judge Judy' shows when I couldn't sleep. Not sure why English TV sees fit to show an American Civil court in the small hours of the morning, but sometimes I couldn't stay mad as the problems seems sometimes at lest a lot more trivial than the ones causing my anger. (Well the one I remember most seemed to involve a dispute about a fish tank).

At last the wind has died down and I have stopped planning to get out my 'Little House on the Prairie' books to see how they survived the weather. Love, Jay/

 

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Hi all,

Well I've looked quickly through the posts since I am late into today.

The weekend was busy to say the least. Friday I went to my nan's and bought some food from the takeaway. Saturday my daughter dances and then off to the library and things to exchange at the shops. Then the car broke down so no more outings. My young nephew came to stay he kept me busy. He is 2 years old and has more energy than I ever could imagine. Sunday walk and more walking to get my daughter some sneakers.

We went her daddy's house to tell him that we'd be gone a while at the shops in case he came to pick her up. THEN something insightful happened. ANNOYING REALLY!!! You all know I asked my ex to leave my house the other night. Well my daughter said to her daddy, "YOU didn't come around on Friday" He said "Yeah I know, your mom kicked me out on Wednesday so I couldn't." My daughter said "Mommy your naughty, you shouldn't kick him out." I was stuck for words. None came out, I was livid. Why? does it always happen that I ended up being passed the blame????

I said to my daughter when we left her daddy's house. "I didn't kick him out, he had a choice to treat us nicely and not yell at us or the choice to go, his choice so no I didn't kick him out, he was in a mood and so I told him we me and you weren't gonna let him take it out on us."

She said "OH"

I was livid, so livid, I mean now he thinks it was my fault, now where is the lesson in that??? He was meant to realise that I wasn't tolerating his bad mood, now our daughter hasn't helped by helping him to shift the blame on to me. ARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!

(She's only 6 years old and she is helping her dad blame me!!!! This makes me feel angry!!!)

When am I gonna stop getting blame for his moodiness??? and to top it all off he grinned and told my daughter, I'll be around on Monday and Wednesday and Friday as usual. AND I never said "NO you won't be". Oh why didn't I say "NO this isn't a good idea" why do I not speak up and say NO, Your not coming around so the next time your in a mood I'll get the blame. YUKKKK I feel YUKK!!

What good has come from all this????

Thanks and hi to you all. Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

Lynn here again and I nearly got caught! Dan came into the TV room all concerned and upset, "Honey, what's the matter, couldn't you sleep?" I told him I just wanted to see him off and to tell him to have a good trip.

Theressa, I'm going to start with you, because I read you last. I'd say Hooray for you. You caught it! Would you have noticed this being done two weeks ago? At least you recognized it.

I think this is one of the toughest lessons for me to learn. I feel like if let my guard down for one minute Dan knows and Zooms in. I think that is what this mornings post was all about. Dr. Irene, We do get out of this stage don't we? I don't want to spend much more time waiting and watching for the next one.

And Theressa, on blame. Why do you always get it? Probably like me, you take it. Next step might be that now that we recognize it we can learn to pass it back.

How did the Birthday party go?

Dear Jay, Are you ok with the weather? Sounds scary, but we get different scary. All in what we're used to. Stay safe and a prayer for the people hurt and homeless. Makes me feel like a poop whining because Dan won't talk to me and people are being blown from their homes.

I'm glad Dr. Irene mentioned an illness that may be wrong with your daughter. Dan's daughter is diagnosed bi polar, yet the Psychologist at the state home thought it was a personality disorder. She is doing well finally and taking her meds and going to the Dr. regularly.

Jay, as for the housecleaning and the presents. Dan would do that. If I got mad and wanted to talk he'd either clean or get me a gift. This is how he thought he was pleasing me and making up. I'd get livid, but it seems that this is how he learned in childhood. Not necessarily bad, just doing the best they know how.

You think I'm strong, how? Because of the moose or because I can live without Dan for 2 weeks? Great question if it is about Dan. I think Dan gets threatened when I do fine without him. I try to reassure him that I do fine because he has me prepared. I was also single for years and learned to do a lot of my own "honey do's" Actually enjoyed tearing out the wall the other day. A crowbar is great therapy for me.

If it's about the moose, we have a healthy respect for them around here. As far as I'm concerned they can do anything they want to. Especially the mama with two 2 two year old calf's. We live in town, too, but also get bear roaming around down here in the garbage cans. We get used to them and give them a wide berth. I'd probably have the big one if I saw an alligator. Now those I'm not used to.

Dear AJ, I'm so sorry you feel so down. I don't blame you. Yuk about the sex. Just doesn't feel loving, does it? I stick to my guns on this one. If I don't feel loved in the kitchen I can't get loving in the bedroom. I do think men can use this as a way of trying to let us know they love us. A while back Dan told me if I'd let him take me back to the bedroom he'd show me how loving he could be. He was serious. I was speechless.

Love the wine and cats therapy. Trubble, do you recommend white or red? I can't do candles. My cats think it's fun to bat at the flame. Wine, cats and a flashlight loses something.

Take care AJ and we've probably all done the same.

Dear Becky, Happy belated Birthday! The moon must be unfavorable for us Scorpio's (and nearly Astrid). Don't know. Maybe when something aligns with another planet things will look better. Wishful thinking, but what the heck. It's our Birthday's and we can wish for whatever we want.

Next time hand him the keyboard and say quit messing with me until you read this.

Our neighbors feed every stray cat in the neighbor hood. Then they started getting this stinky little skunk coming into their porch and sharing. The skunk was fine with the cats. Wasn't fine when he saw people. Did you get pictures of the baby raccoons?

Dear B, SOS. I sure could have used some of your strength last night. Send us some strength and when the hubby's get in a house cleaning mode we'll lend them to you. I swear, some of Dan's cleaning lately has been self defense on his part. I made more progress the last 2 days than I had in the last 2 months. I'm thinking this is subconscious rebellion on my part. Doc? Could be...

Dear Astrid, It sounds like you had pretty healthy parents. My mother still referred to bathroom hygiene as wee and grunty. Even in her 70's. I can't remember her ever calling a period anything but the curse and referred to sex as "daddy tried to get familiar with me." Oh, Boy! :) Here's a Catholic one you should like. She suggested that I get on the pill and since she told me about it she'd take the "sin" for me.

Funny death story, too. Mom was in a coma for about a week and for the 1st time all week my dad's neighbor talked dad into going over to his house for some coffee. My sister and I were about talked out after a week and we were discussing (over the sick bed) how tough it was to talk sex with the children. Then we got into how mom told us. Talked about what mom told my sister. She handed her a book and told her to talk to me if she had any questions. Yea, well, I got the book, but nobody to ask. Chuckle and more along these lines. Well, mom sat up in bed, opened her eyes wide and opened her mouth and fell dead back on the pillow. We got the hysterical giggles. Thank goodness my dad wasn't there. We were laughing. Plum silly. Don't know what she was going to say to us, but.... Then they told us the hearing is the last thing to go.

By the way, my dog's name was Murphy. Both dogs, that is. :)

Dear Asha, Sorry I missed the acting part. Good one. Our old therapist had me "try" and pretend I was Dan. Just couldn't. I'm not Dan. I might not be able to act, but if you throw out the brussel sprouts I guess dinner's at your place. I liked what Dr. Irene said about the sides. Now why couldn't we have thought of that? See Doc, we still need you. And so simple, too.

For all you youngsters, I had the cure for the 50's blues. I was born in 1946, so when I do the math I tend to forget my birthday is at the end of the year. My daughter in law asked how old I was. I said 49. So they threw a 50th Birthday Party for me and it was great. Dan never said a word till we were driving home and then he asked how old I was. 50! Nope, I was only 49. Well, that was easy. So start to lie now and make yourselves a year older and then you can get the trauma behind you and when you really turn 50 it's no big deal. Really isn't anyhow. Age is just a number.

Dear Dr. Irene, Wow, what a bum night. I'm glad I didn't get into it worse as I wanted to scream, "quit messing with me!" I don't want to spend my life watching and being on guard. Does this pass? I see why separation can be therapeutic. I think you're PMSing... :)

Steve, you get to be Tarzan of the Cat Box. You better return and protect us.

Well, that's my book of the day. Trubble, I hear mommy is mad at you and you are only getting tuna. I think you deserve Caviar and Escargot. Thanks Pal. My REAL mommy R U!

Theressa, another baby, how many do you have? Do we get to pick names here? I vote for Kit or Kitty. What else?

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa

<<When am I gonna stop getting blame for his moodiness???>>

Probably when you stop blaming yourself. Ah, yesssss.

Of course it's easier for him to blame you than to take responsibility. I would be surprised if he *did* own up to his contribution to the problems. If you wait for him to agree that you were right in kicking him out, I think you'll be waiting an eternity. Just know for yourself what's right, and don't expect him to agree.

Your daughter may be siding with him in front of him, because she knows that that's how she gets his approval. If I was you, I would talk to her about that. Once I overheard Steve's kids saying really negative things about their visit with him in a phone call to their mom - that they were having a rotten time etc. etc. (it was obvious they weren't having a rotten time) Steve later spoke to them about it and I think it relieved a huge pressure from them. Your daughter will learn to say what daddy wants to hear unless you show her that it's not necessary. Also, she's hearing one version from him and another from you so she's probably testing you both to see what is true. But she knows that you will be there regardless of what she says about you, while he won't, necessarily. So she's probably learned to be 'careful' towards him. Yessssss! 

Lynn and Jay - please send both husbands here, when they are in 'cleaning mode'. Tell them it would really please you for them to do this for me. B and I could share. thanks.

Hi to all. More later.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Asha Dear,

I can't speak for Jay so I am sending Dan to you. I guess B gets Jay's H by default. Dan comes equipped with 7 cats, 2 dogs, 2 parakeets, 1 cockatiel and 3 aquariums. Turkey Trout is also his favorite food, so I know you'll give him a good home. 

Now that that's settled I think I might dis engage to Hawaii for the winter.

PS. No exchanges or refunds and I'm sorry about Steve, but I could only fit me (plus a cat) on my broomstick.

Thanks Asha, I needed a chuckle. Things always look better when I'm laughing.

My cape is packed and the alimony check is in the mail. Thanks.

And Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dr Irene

You have a wonderful ability to bring clarity to what seems so muddled. You are right. I am angry. More angry than I originally was aware of.

Dear all

I debated whether to post this or not, because Steve will find it hurtful. I'm at a point where I feel like being 100% honest about the source of my anger, and I think I need to be up front about it for my own sake, even if it's hurtful to Steve. We may just not be good for each other right now.

I walked down the street yesterday and saw a couple laughing and hanging up 'dead bodies' together on a close line outside their home for Halloween. I thought to myself, that would never happen with Steve and I.

I think about all the birthdays, Halloweens, and Christmases that I have let go by. I thought about how if I wanted to give a gift to the kids I had to run it by Steve first, or I'd be seen as challenging him. And how, even now, he was disinterested in my suggestion of pumpkin carving.

I couldn't invite the kids to carve pumpkins, watch a movie etc. instead of sitting around as you suggested Dr I., because it's Steve's choice whether they come here to visit. In order to do the carving, I have to plan to buy the pumpkins. So what it comes down to is that I can make plans for myself and let them do what they will. If I was to go ahead with an activity with the kids that Steve didn't pre-approve I risk being viewed as overriding his authority. Risk it. Steve also has the authority to end the activity and I don't want to start doing something if there's a chance he will take the kids elsewhere. Don't allow yourself to be manipulated, kids or no kids. We would need to be able to both agree on the activity, for me to feel comfortable with it. The problem is you think you need his approval. 

I do write out via email what I think my anger is about. Writing usually helps, except when I don't know what my anger is about. Sometimes I don't know for several days. The more you practice becoming aware, the faster and better you get at it.

I realize there are a myriad of issues. I feel as if Steve did a couple of weeks work on himself and then started acting like he should get his way again. He can act any way he wants. Why does this bother you so? In my head I still hear him saying that I'm seeing this all wrong. I realize it doesn't matter if I'm seeing it wrong. I can't deal with my plans being up in the air so often. Of course. So, if he can't commit to plans, exclude him. In a relationship, I want someone who is genuinely interested in *me*, not how I can serve their needs. I want someone who loves me for *my* highest potential, and I haven't even begun to realize that potential. I want to celebrate life; I want to accept, and say 'yes' to it. I don't want to be with someone who continually blocks my ideas and suggestions. Nobody has the power to block you! (Unless, of course, you let them.)

And sometimes yes, I do want to blather on, and for that to be okay! I don't mind my partner saying that a topic is upsetting him and I can respect those feelings. But I do want a partner who lets me blather on from time to time, just because he knows it makes me feel good! I have felt so controlled, so unable to express myself, that I do need to babble right now. Keep babbling then. Steve: let her babble. It's got nothing to do with you. I don't want to impose feelings, I just want to share my excitement, fears, happiness with someone. If I'm going to have someone in my life, I want someone who can handle that. If not, I'll find others who don't mind my babble. Translation: Steve, she loves you and wishes you could handle her babbling when she needs to.

My anger comes from any indication of 'control'. I know that Steve is doing his best right now. This is why I said that perhaps we're just not good for each other at the moment. And that's okay too. Yes.

Thanks for listening to my blathering babble.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Lynn back,

In retrospect, Dan was being co dependent plus, not abusive. And then when I wouldn't play the plant game, he tried the put the dinner away game. Still felt yukky. Still hope I didn't engage until he asked what was wrong. I told him and then dropped it. I hope. I'm new to this. Thanks, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

A P.S. from Asha

I was just thinking that when I talk to Steve about other people and other situations, some of the subject matter may push a button in him that I am absolutely unaware of. It would help me if he could tell me that he's uncomfortable with the topic, even if he doesn't know why. If I know he's uncomfortable, and if he explores why and can share this with me, then I can be more sensitive to his feelings. Otherwise I'm left feeling baffled and confused, and I'll likely be babbling about the same subject matter again, not knowing I'm hitting a raw nerve. With some subject matter this obvious to me, other subject matter isn't (especially stuff that has nothing to do with Steve or I). Ideally, he would tell you. But, what if he is uncomfortable, but is not only not aware of the whys of his discomfort, but is unaware of his discomfort period? If you sense discomfort on his part, why do  you need him to tell you he is uncomfortable? 

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Lynn

No offense to Dan, but I take back my earlier request. My house is too small. Here's a better idea - we on the cat box can all live communally so Dan and Jay's H can clean to make up for those who don't.

Can you imagine the fixing, controlling, codepending, PMSing, and SBU'ing that would go on if we were all together! (I hope this isn't too rude but SBU is a man's version of PMS - stands for sperm build up. hehe) :) But we'd have great birthday celebrations during October and November. We could throw some killer parties, don't you think?

What would we do about those of us who let our dogs sleep on our beds and others of us who don't want dogs in the house at all? We would have a lot of conflict resolution to deal with. Of course, Dr I. would be there to help us work it all out. And there would never be turkey dinners alone...

Consider it. Just Salmon and Trout, my two favorite mommys. I can't deal with the tuna anymore.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Sorry I thought my posts didn't submit earlier and seem to have put 4 On.

Just need to vent. My husband read this cat box over a week ago. Well sorry folks I didn't know this but I told you a pack of lies. He discussed it with his father...........Well I just hope he continues to read it. Perhaps one day he will get around to looking at what he does that is abusive.

Dear Husband. I won't name you here but you know I post as Jay. If you are reading this, then can I invite you to come on board. No one is out to get at you. All I want is some rational discussion on why our relationship is so destructive to you both. If you met others like Steve and Dan - if he eve can post again you would see that.

This isn't about judging. Though sometimes we vent. It is about finding ways forward. I guess you probably won't take the challenge, but it would be so healing if you did for both of us. love Jay whose real name you know.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Boards,

Lynn here. I Got It! I posted it and it went to limbo, so I'll try again.

The new therapist told us we had to give up the web while she was treating us. Dan said OK. I said I'd like to think on it overnight. Dan said it wasn't necessary, Cat Box fini. We get out to the car and he tells me, " That's OK, honey, if you don't like her, we'll find another one."

I bought into it again. I never said I didn't like her. I feel like Dan in one sentence quit the cat box and went out of town and then he fixed my tub (well, kinda) and started filling me with over helpful around here and now I feel here we are back at square one again. I think my instincts were right on. I had to fine tune my instincts because I am so gullible. (sp, and who cares?) This came from my childhood, too.

I wouldn't have been a bartender for 10 minutes if I didn't acquire good instincts. This whole thing with the therapist has smelled fishy to me since "we" went. Why? Because it was fishy! Dan still wants me to fix it, I think. Now he can't post in the Cat Box and he can't go to therapy because he isn't here and now he doesn't have to do either. Good mommy Lynn will fix it and poor daddy Dan can't right now, but we'll be over fixey in the house so she won't get mad at me.

I feel so stupid and this stuff makes me crazy. Very smart! Just don't fix his.

Asha, loved your post. Can't we just have a communal Cat House and "let" the guys come in and clean? At least we'd all have someone to talk to and babble with. What a Birthday Party, too. We could start with the last one and end with the first one. That would give us 2 weeks rest each year. Pour the wine and light the candles. I'm in.

Nearly Happy Halloween, too. How exciting. What costume/s are we all wearing this year? I think I'll pretend I'm a healthy human. Nobody'd recognize me in that costume. Time to put it on for good me thinks!

Love to All, Thanks to all, Prayers to all and Trick or Treat to all,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Lynn,

Your "cat house" idea: I suppose you know what cat house is slang for? Tee-hee!

"Deeper thoughts" later,

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

No, I don't. Explain please ...

Big grins, and yep, I am naive. Had to have SBU spelled out for me. Just not quite that naive.

Mighten't be a bad idea. If they were paying for it, I'll bet they'd take better care of it.

OK Trubble, we know better, it's just been one of those days.

TGTH and bye, gotta fly, Lynn Just watch those steep take offs...

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Lynn, I think your instincts are dead on re: Dan. Been through that both with family and with my ex. And with myself, to be fair.

[Technical note to the Doc: it might just be me, but Buddha board isn't word-wrapping properly and now neither is this post as I type it. Could this be looked into at some point?]

It's certainly not easy to keep on Dealing With Stuff. There's just so much of it. And as far as parents being healthy goes, in many ways yes, but in many other ways no.

Cleaning is a big one here too -- my dad used to sit in the middle of the room and make me clean, which I hated. My first year out of college, I held Thanksgiving dinner.

It went well, until he had a screaming fit about the grease buildup in the broiler. Must have been my housemate; I don't broil food generally. But Dad had a fit, and insisted on cleaning the oven.

Yuck.

So of late in my house, since it's completely to myself, the cat box is the ONLY thing that gets cleaned regularly, because I won't let others suffer for my messiness. Only me. *giggles*

Laundry has completely eaten my bedroom, my car is (two months later) still not completely unpacked from vacation, cat hair that never seems to completely come out of the living room rug and furniture, etc.

I'd love to have it cleaned, and I'd love to be motivated to clean it, but cleaning is so linked to getting yelled at for not doing it right (or not doing it at all). I guess I'm rebelling.

OTOH, Dad's been amazingly supportive lately. E-mail and snail mail clippings related to my various pet projects find their way to me with amazing regularity.

I'm one of the world's biggest suckers for little things. The new guy is still in the picture (though since we know we're BOTH not in the healthiest of states right now, things will go very slowly).

We went to dinner at our usual Applebee's Friday night, and he ordered mozzarella sticks. You know how they come in a basket with that paper liner that's a bit stronger than a napkin?

As we waited for the check, before the dishes were taken away, he used that to make me an origami flower, which now rests on my nightstand. :)

Every time I see that ridiculous flower, I just break out in this massive grin. I'm thinking of taking it to work to cheer me up.

I so completely love that kind of thing. Not money, but thought. Dad was always good at that, too. The best Christmas present of my life was one of his.

You know those shirts that say "Celebrate Freedom, Read a Banned Book"? I got the shirt -- and EVERY SINGLE BOOK on the shirt the Christmas I was ... *thinks*... 15.

Many of the books were from his old collection, and some were from used bookstores. But talk about thought counting! I'm a lifelong bookworm, and I HATE censorship with an intense passion.

It was the ultimate "I know my daughter!" gift.

Now if I could safely visit him without him insisting on vacuuming out my car before I leave, thereby delaying my departure for an extra hour or two..... :P

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000

S1

Dear Astrid,

I hear you about parents cleaning "our" houses. About 3 months ago (in old car) a girl friend bought 2 large boxes of stuff at a garage sale that she couldn't fit in her car. I still have her stuff in my new car. I tell people that that is why I had to buy a station wagon. Tooooo funny the people who tell her to get to out and the one's who ask me why I don't make her get it out. It's my car and I can carry her stuff around for the next 20 years if I so choose.

She and I have turned this into an art form. If she sees me at the grocery store she comes and says hello to her stuff. :)

My favorite T-shirt of the year. "I'm on a 30 day diet, and so far I've lost 15 days."

I'm a reader, too. I don't believe in banning either. About 10 years ago I found an old "Little Black Sambo" I gave it to my 1st grand son. We have the choice to read or not to read. I went to a used book store near Chicago and bought a bundle of used books and carried them home. That's why I don't need fancy luggage.

I posted a brief one to David at Buddha, too, and it didn't go through. I don't know what all that wrap stuff means. Don't need to.

Neat about the new friend. Just enjoy. You deserve it. Does this mean you aren't moving to Asha's with us? Lovely about the flower. I'm happy for you.

Take care and have a Happy Halloween. Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

S1

PS Astrid, I know about origami. I just got a book at the library book sale. :) Only books I got rid of were a box of witchcraft ones I got at a garage sale. They were too weird for me. Got a bundle, too, at a used Book Store. I have books that I buy just because I like the title. My favorite in that category is "The Neighbor's Are Scaring My Wolf."

Where would the cats sleep if we didn't keep laundry piles around the house? Think of it at cat care.

Say Goodnight Mooses, Goodnight Mooses,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

S1

Hi all. AK is posting lots of negative stuff about me lately - this for example:

"In a relationship, I want someone who is genuinely interested in *me*, not how I can serve their needs. I want someone who loves me for *my* highest potential, and I haven't even begun to realize that potential. I want to celebrate life; I want to accept, and say 'yes' to it. I don't want to be with someone who continually blocks my ideas and suggestions."

I'm sorry, but these kinds of posts are a pretty good indicator for me that there's nothing left.

Look carefully at what she is saying... Ooops! Steve, stop reacting. Just listen to what she is saying. Ignore her anger and just hear it. This is a good stretch for you...

Gee girl, get the hell out if that's how little you think of me.

Thanks for all your kind words AK/Asha or whatever your name is.

How encouraging...

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

S1

Dear Steve,

"How encouraging?" How? What are you saying here? Why does AK/Asha or whatever she calls herself have to make a decision. Don't you get to make one? What's going on here? I don't understand. I know I don't need to, but I'd like to understand if you feel like explaining it.

Something's wrong, isn't it? Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

S1

Hi Cat Box, B. here!

Again a quick note, since I'm stressed in time right now and I've only read up to the middle of posts No. 8...

Yes I saw there were many Scorpions here, as well as many Octobers (My H was born Oct. 18! And today his father has his birthday, and his brother's birthday is one day before mine - really, we were born day after day, same year too). Great! October is the best! No offense, others...

I'll write in detail soon about the problem I raised, but a housekeeper can't solve it. Besides, I can't stand strangers in my things, know what I mean?

Love you all, and talk to you later. Oh, and I find the discussion sooooo pertinent to me too. I really identify with you all. Plus I also have an H that says it's no use to feel so-and-so because you can't change whatever...

Can't have feelings because they mean only pain for him, but he denies that too... That's his choice. Let him...

Bye! Later! B.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

S1

Yes Lynn, there are many things wrong. I was being ironically sarcastic by saying "thanks for the kind words." and "how encouraging".

I felt her words here lately to be extremely HURTFUL Steve: Let her have her feelings; you don't have to have her support and approval all the time! and very DISCOURAGING Please don't go here. She is just setting her boundaries.. I don't have time to go into it all...but...

AK is angry most of the time. There's no way to work on things when she is so angry. Right. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of her always telling me I have to work on me when I know that it takes two to make a relationship. She refuses to get help for her anger. Of course she doesn't see it as a problem. (Remember? Only Steve has problems). No, both of you have problems. Steve has to get a handle on his problems first. Then it becomes her turn. Why? That's a whole article I should write.

All the anger...it's very unhealthy to be around. I cannot expose myself nor my kids to it anymore. Too much walking on eggshells waiting for the next bomb to go off. Especially if you give too much power to the bomber. Otherwise, you'd realize she is just human. Like you. Like Trubble.

When I say she is angry, I don't think I'm conveying the complete picture. She is "deaf/blind angry". To the point where she can't see anything but her own narrow viewpoint. She can't hear a word I say. I cannot reason with her. I cannot "be very gentle" because she'll just bite my head off even harder. Right.

I'm just throwing in the towel on this one. Stop reacting to her! Just let her vent without getting all tied up emotionally in her venting, which has nothing to do with you.

I used to thing my X had big problems with anger. Now her problems seem very small compared to what I see in AK/asha.

Oh how I wish I could tell you the whole story. I feel like the people here see AK as this innocent angel and me as the demon. No me.

Maybe someday, I'll fill you in better Lynn. Right now, just let me say, that what you hear from AK, isn't always the real story, is never the full story. Anyways, I'm tired of living next to one big long temper tantrum. You can't fix her. You can fix you. My suggestion: Let her be angry, let her vent. Why do you let her feelings get to you so much? Detach. Which is NOT throwing in the towel - which is no more than your own frustrated reaction to her reaction. Like dominos. Stop reacting to her reaction!

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Hi All,

Hi Lynn, I have only one baby. She is 6 years old and called Missy. My two sister's have children, the one I said is a manipulator is one year younger than me Mags, she has two kids. My youngest sister is Cat she has one baby I looked after him this weekend.

I'd never have had any more children to my ex after Missy, cos he made my life miserable, I was so wrong as a mom in his opinion, still am LOL.

Lynn I also know what you mean about passing back the responsibility to my ex. NEXT STEP RIGHT!!!!

Asha, Missy does feel it is okay to be herself with me. She pushes the limits with me, she seems to feel safe doing so. She'll say to me I know dad moan and is moody, though when she is in his presence she'll side with her daddy. FEAR in my opinion, she is affraid of not getting his approval. WIth me she knows I still love her whatever. I tell her this. I told her love is like glue it sticks no matter what we do. If your naughty your love in my heart stays all the time and the same happens for you, my love stays in your heart no matter what you do. She even feels safe saying mommy its not my fault you did xxxx, we are each responsible for our own actions. I taught her this, and she calls me on it, which is good. Though with her daddy she can't do this, she must just do as he says. So its like she can be healthy with me but not with her dad, with him she must be compliant no matter what, unless she wants to lose his approval.

I am not perfect and sometimes I feel awful cos when everything is running around in my head I just want to be alone, I end up feeling guilty cos I should be spending this time with Missy but I need to relax so I can think straight.

If only life was simple. If Missy would get dressed in the morning without tantrums, if I'd not end up yelling your going to bed early, we're late again. You see Missy is rebelling big time, she doesn't want to do anything that doesn't suit her. If I didn't feel so Yukkyy!!! I feel so sad sometimes and starting thinking what on earth am I doing. I left the chaos or so I thought, or did I?

Thanks all of you Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Dear Theressa, just a thought about the tantrums. Have you tried a reward chart for getting dressed without the tantrum? Missy might not be able to connect early bed times with what happens in the morning. I remember the tantrums bit well. We were always the family late for school. Also I think it is good if you do relax and take time out for yourself. No need to feel guilty.

Dear all, let's have the catbox, the mess and no husbands! Ohhh, somebody's mad...

Weird kind of day today. Sort of decided it is the rest of my life and ended up in a major tension situation with my H. Then just thought what on earth am I even wanting this to continue for.

Went to the doctors and got the female one I dislike. I thought 'you look stressed as hell and you want to look at my health. Then I thought I have had enough and went out straight from the doctor's surgery and registered with a new one. Can't decide if I was right or impulsive! 

Mainly, I just want to change everything and discover who I really am and what I am capable of. So then I went to a careers office and booked an appointment.

Then I decided I feel strong enough to insist on a separation from my husband and what was I doing in a relationship where I have basically felt unhappy for 20 years. Madness.

Then I asked my friend if she thought I had become a manic depressive but she said No you are doing fine. Experience your power. Feel it. Just go slowly so you are not impulsive. 

I halved my medication this morning so I really hope it is not a reaction to that.

And then I came back and couldn't resist the catbox.

Bears and raccoons and mooses. I think I want to come to the U.S! Here we have swans in the river and ducks and some horses nearby. Sometimes a hedgehog in the garden nut no bears at all. Or crocodiles , or raccoons. Except in the zoo.

Some how, Lynn your sharing has inspired me to a great sort out. I also have bags and bags of clothing that travels round with me for no better reason than someone threw it out for me to take to the Oxfam store. In fact it has even come out of the car and back into the house several times!

Really, Really missing my daughter now. Still no call. I tried talking to the doctor about her today and that is why I got so mad as she was dismissive. Actually I told her I felt she needed to take some responsibility for not listening to me in the first place. Glad I did. I wasn't rude, I just felt it needed saying.

Lynn, I think you are right. The whole housecleaning thing to me is a way of avoiding the real issues. I am just not fooled any more. Realised that all I can see left between me and my husband is the housecleaning. So metaphorically, I have found that all my husband ever does for me is clean the catbox. I can clean my own house (catbox). And mine too!

Steve, I wish you would look again at what Asha says. Like Dr. Irene, says, forget the anger.

lynn. You sound pretty down. I just want to send you lots of love and hugs and if there was one a cat proof candle.

trubble, if you can stow away, then I could do with borrowing a cat to cuddle right now. Only wait until the storms are passed.

More terrible storms forecast for tonight, I watched a little of what was going on elsewhere in the country on TV. Like England is turning into one vast ocean. It put things into perspective seeing how many people have lost everything. I am afout now to see what the river is doing and find my son who appears permanently attached to the basketball courts. (He's good! in the county team a year young.)

Love to you all. Keep smiling. While I was depressed I discovered it really is true: if you smile it does release a chemical. So now if I am really down, I make myself smile. Seems to work even if it is not really a smile at all. :)

Love and lots of hugs. Jay

 

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Jay said: "Dear all, let's have the catbox, the mess and no husbands!"

Jay, you seem to forget, there are husbands here. That comment is a little bit angry sounding.

Do you believe only men are abusers?

Steve Steve: She's just angry and venting. No harm. Let her. Don't personalize it. Human beings and cats do this.

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Dear Steve,

Hi the rest, I'll post later. Lynn here. In the first place, is there going to be a relationship to work on between you and AK/Asha? If not/never or a BIG NO are you ready to throw in the towel? If so, do and let both of you get on with your lives. (I thought you passed this to AK and was going to let her make the final decision).

If there is even the tiniest ray of hope I think you two need to back off from each other for a few minutes and reconoiter. Fall back and regroup. I'd even suggest no talking and no emails for a couple of days until both of you can sort out your thoughts. Toughie working together. White flag and truce and nothing but what definitely pertains to the business.

Think of it as a retreat. Then and only then do I think each of you can quit shouting long enough to hear each other. Yes.

I can't speak for all here, but I certainly never thought of AK/Asha as an Angel. Nor you as Lucifer. I hear two people who genuinely (I think) care for each other and have let so many issues from the past cloud their thinking that they are stuck there. I know these past issues have to be worked on, but I don't think either of you are in a position to stop, make goals, think rationally about the future and then organize a game plan for healing, nurturing or kissing any of the boo boo's and making them all better, yet.

Yet! I haven't given up on the two of you yet. I don't think either of you have yet either, because if it were over with no looking back one of you would have said an emphatic NO by now.

Ok. If we've both backed off ..... Your needs are just as important as AK/Asha's. What are they? I thought she stated hers loud and clear. (I also think she's like me and wants them yesterday). Rationally, though this isn't going to be better next week or next month and never if the two of you don't quit shouting.

1. Define a game plan for "Steve and AK/Asha. 2. What are Steve's wants and needs from the relationship? 3. What are AK/Asha's want and needs from the relationship? 4. Now take a breather. 3 days off from each other I'd say. Then see if you both feel a genuine commitment to each other and want to make an effort towards a future with each other.

Maybe write these down separately.

That's the easy part! If the answer is yes then the road ahead is full of traps, pitfalls, slips and just a bunch of other yukky stuff waiting to catch you and destroy you. I think you'd both have to make a genuine promise to each other that if the time isn't right to talk something over, then there HAS to be a "time out" respected by both sides to go back in your corners and develop another plan for the next round.

Is therapy out of the Q? I don't remember if you are in or not. Sorry.

Next, and the toughest for me is the past hurts. There will have to be times set aside to deal and heal with these. This is so hard because they keep cropping their ugly head in the middle to sabotage you. Yes. And the bad habits both of these two have where they bounce off each other. So reactive!

Then both of you have childhood issues that need to be faced and dealt with and worked on and resolved. I don't think either of you can do this for each other either. Look at the mess Dan and I keep getting into with this one.

Lots and lots more, but that's a start. Gee, you guys. Can't you see what you are doing to each other? I found my term for it. Pushing my buttons and engage and disengage wasn't making sense to me. I knew what to do when I felt Dan was "Just messin' with me." Put the feelings in your own words.

Ok, lecture over. Just my thoughts anyhow and if I knew so much I wouldn't be in the Cat Box either. I do know, and this I do know that if you both work on this relationship and make it work, 25 years down the road you will look back and not be able to imagine what the fuss was about. True intimacy is the heart to heart of two people who can be in a crowded room and get eye contact with each other and feel more in that look than most of the rest in the room feel in all their sexual embraces put together. You'll know it when you get it, but it takes hard work to get it. That I think is something a couple earns.

If I was too heavy on you, tough. I thought I was just as heavy on AK/Asha. I don't feel I have to tippie toe with you. I'm not trying to hurt either of you. I'd like to see you both stop hurting each other. Then decide if you each want to make the effort to commit to the rest of your lives.

I do love you both. Lynn ToughMommyDoc2! Good advice!

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Steve again, Lynn here. Posting together. No, men aren't only the abusers. We all had a rough day yesterday and got a little silly. In fact I was afraid you'd be angry because I wanted to send Dan to AK.

We're talking a communal home where AK cooks turkey dinners Dan and Jay's H clean and it's full of all of our cats and dogs and birds.

You are welcome to move into the Cat Box commune. You do have to contribute something of yourself though. Any suggestions? Grin.

Steve, truthfully, I can get VERY abusive. I say I'm just trying to get Dan to hear me, but I've said some truly unforgivable things to him. In fact when our ball started rolling I think we reversed roles completely. I didn't even like me like that.

Lynn with (((HUGS))

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Oh Boy, Lynn back,

I just reread my posts to Steve and I'm thinking. I'm talking about the "great" relationship my late husband and I had and I'm also talking earlier about the "great" love I had for my previous boyfriend. Dan will never be either of these men. Dan and I have our own relationship that is totally different, yet I'll bet I'm dragging some of these issues into this relationship, too.

Food for thought here, Always...

Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Dear Steve, I am so sorry. That was a thoughtless remark based on my own anger with my own husband at that time. If you look in 'Confessions" you will see that I came in thinking I was the abuser in the relationship I had with my husband. I don't think only men can be abusers at all. But you also sound angry? I think with Asha and not me?

Yeah Dr. Irene, I messed up. No guilt. Good! ( dr irene has been on at me about this!) Yes.

Lynn, I just wondered if we ever get free of all the junky stuff. Maybe we just have to learn to live with the bits of ourselves that won't change. I don't really know quite what I am trying to say here. actually no, that doesn't work. Maybe it is that once you se it you change, but only if you want to and there is a right time to see everything. Kind of like we don't see it until we are ready. If this makes no sense at all, put it down to the drug thing, Halloween and the impending storms!

love, jay

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box and Trubble,

Lynn here. I had to go to the store with my neighbor who is also a Scorpio! I never new very many till here. What a treat.

Thanks Trubble darlin" glad you are working. MommyDoc1 will give you a treat. If she has a problem with this, say, "Lynn said I could!" That outta work. ^-^ I'll try it. Otherwise, can you come get me out of here?

Dear Dr. Irene, I think I will call the "shrink." It's just a 130 mile drive WOW! on the round trip to hell road and I don't like to drive. Ah, there's the job for Steve. I could use a chauffer and I can sit in the back of my station wagon with my dogs and my friends "stuff" and go anywhere I wanted to.

A pat on the back for me, too. Dan's out of town and I didn't go shopping, gamboling or any of the destructive things I can tell myself I'm justified in doing. I have a quirk, too. I love Honkey Tonks and Country Music and Karaoke (sp) and just people in general. Don't need to drink. Dan says I just wake up when the Neon Lights come on. I do like Night Life and Night People. Cats & bats & vampires.

The critters behave for me. They are horrible when I'm gone. Giggle!

Steve, a brief comment. You said X was angry, too. Could this be a pattern of yours that makes all these other women angry? Wouldn't you be mad at Steve if he didn't let you be mad at him?

Jay, about the laughter. My step daughter sent me a phone number of a business and I called and Of course got the "menu." Press one for this, press two for that, etc. Press #7 if you want to hear a duck quack. I pressed #7 and heard, "Quack, quack, quack." Well, my silly train of thought and my apologies Dr. I, but Shrinks used to be called quacks and one silly thought led to another and I can hehe over this hours after I call. Toll free, and yes I call every couple of days. One never knows when one may need to hear a duck quack, does one?

Jay, I love the bags of clothes. I'm glad I do this at the thrift store. I go bags of clothes on dollar day, brig them home and wash and iron them and never wear them. I've got clothes from size 8 to size 14 and I am somewhere right now, but that is subject to change at any moment and so I go out and buy more bags. Goofy or therapeutic? I guess you and I get to be the Cat Box bag ladies.

Congrats to your son. ((HUGS)) to your daughter and it sounds like you know the direction you are heading with H. As for our Dr. I think you did the right thing. They work for us, remember. She may not be bad for everyone, but if she's not for you, that's OK. As for the manic depression, I think we all have a bit of that inside of us. I sure felt like it yesterday. Just tying to organize my thoughts.

Dear Theressa, I think I confused you with B on wanting another baby. Aren't you all glad that I'm not the stork? I think you are right. One by this guy is enough. You'll have to get your child rearing help from others. I used to tell my kids (I worked nights) that school was their responsibility and they had to set the alarm and get themselves up. Come wake me and kiss me good bye, but that was the best I could do. Your daughter may be a bit young for this, tho...

As for you, of course you're crabby. Who wouldn't be! Just reassure her that mums cranky, but not at her (unless you are).

Hi Astrid. Hi Becky and Hi AJ.

Dear B, Hi there. We're waiting. No rush. You haven't even conceived yet and I just gave the baby to Theressa. Sorry. How many others do you have?

Isn't it funny with our relationships? I can't see the nose in front of me when it comes to Dan. Good luck and I'd opt for the house keeper. A teenager who needs a couple of bucks, with room limits?

Dear Asha, I don't know what to say. Yes I do. I still think you two sound like Dan and I in reverse. That makes it funny to me, because I can hear what you are saying, I can hear what Steve is saying, but I can't hear Dan. I think that's why I love Steve's posts. He says exactly what I want to say to Dan. Even the words come out the same. This dynamic is sooooo interesting. Maybe it's the Cat Box way of telling me that no matter what sex we are, we all have the same problems. Not that I don't understand and hear the rest of you. It's just that I think like Steve and so this can't be gender related.

Steve, I was adopted. Do you suppose your folks gave me up? I was so glad to hear from you. How was the trip? PS. Someday I'd love to hear all of your story. Someday do you want to hear all of mine? After we all get a bit healthier maybe we can X change emails. I don't know why, but I don't think Dan is jealous. I think Dan would be of you. Just me thinks. This is silly because I think I'm old enough to be your mother, but (I used to say who knows what men think, but that doesn't work with you) ??? Are you up for adoption?

I love you all, Hope the weather clears in England. I'd love to share the bears and deer and moose with everyone. Just watching them is so peaceful.

Happy Birthday and Happy Halloween

Loves, hugs, peace, purrrs, tears, thanks,

Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Dear Jay,

I don't think one only can change in a relationship. If one does the other is forced to, just by the actions. But then there is no guarantee that the others change will be to our liking or come with us on the road we choose to travel.

Doesn't sound like this makes any more better sense either.

Love you, too,

Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Dear Jay, yea, and quit picking on Steve! :) Love and laughter on this one, Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Yeah Jay, quit picking on me. I'm very sensitive. Grin. Yeah!

Lynn, you said "Steve, a brief comment. You said X was angry, too. Could this be a pattern of yours that makes all these other women angry? "

I knew this would get a bite. I think anger is something we do, not something someone does to us. When I am angry, I have no-one to blame but myself. My X has many "reasons" to CHOOSE to be angry. It's a VERY long story about her childhood. And...Lynn, "my X" does not easily equate with "ALL THESE OTHER WOMEN". Who are you talking about? Grin.

It would be easy to say I'm responsible for my X's and AK's anger. But I don't think so, because then everyone in AK's past would be responsible for her anger, and she would be responsible for their anger at her, etc and on it goes - same for everyone in the world I guess. No, I think we are responsible for our own anger. Yes. And we are also responsible for our behavior when we are angry. Let's make a distinction between the feeling of anger and behaving angrily.

I can't make anyone angry. And no one can make me angry. Right.

By the way Lynn, your last few posts were pretty good. I don't think you have a problem with objectivity as far as AK and I go.

You are pretty fair. Although sometimes I think you miss the mark (usually because of lack of more information), you are very sincere in your attempt to see things clearly. It's hard to see a situation clearly though, if you only get one side. I don't seem to have as much time as AK to give my feelings around here. I would like to point out where AK has made mistakes in her posts regarding me, but I just don't have the time right now. Maybe soon.

Thanks for your input Lynn.

And Jay, apology accepted.

Steve

 

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Dear Steve,

The biggest problem I have with objectivity is when it relates to Dan and me. I want to shout I'm right and your are wrong and ... well! And quit or I'll work myself into another snit.

I have to run, too. I just have to add about the all the other women remark (Grins back at ya') that I have things that trigger the same responses from all my other men (Grin again).

I agree with you about the 2 sides to every story. I don't think any of us would be comfortable with it ALL here on the web for EVERYBODY to see. So it's hard to understand unless we get some input from each. That's why I'm especially glad you are here.

Take Care.

Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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Steve, giving you a bit of a break here, I'm not sure men are really comfortable sharing their feelings in the first place. I don't think boys are taught they can do this. You can, of course, but I think it's tougher for men. Stero ... Sign of weakness. Not so, but ... Just thinking aloud. Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000

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I'm back!

Lynn, "cat house" is slang for brothel, house of ill-repute, etc. Don't ask me how a sheltered Baptist girl knows this!

Astrid, Your dad sounds like a sweetie! I've been told that I was the apple of my dad's eye when i was a baby. I guess when I started growing up I lost my appeal! As I've mentioned in earlier posts, he was pretty hard on me, but I'm no longer angry about it, just sad. He does from time to time soften up; for example, when I graduated with my associates degree, I was one of a few who had a perfect 4.0 GPA. This seemed to impress him. he semi-hugged me and said "Good job." I was very touched by that.

Lynn again, i hope you are feeling less depressed. I understand, believe me!

Could you all give me some input? A page back, I talked about the pain of being called a leech, a mistake, being told I have a pea brain, etc., and asked how one could NOT feel upset about that. dr. Irene commented that maybe there were some things that he was saying that i should think about, but that I should focus on disengaging for now. (Not a direct quote, but I believe this is what she meant).

I don't think she means that I AM a leech, or a mistake, or have a pea brain, but she seems to be suggesting that there may be some truth to his comments. Or am i reading this wrong? Maybe it's the mood I'm in, but I kinda deflated when I read that.

I realize that there can be a kernel of truth in an abuser's remarks, but it's not acceptable to express that truth in an abusive way. I can tell my husband that I'm concerned about his health if he keeps putting on weight; if I say "You're getting so fat you're going to keel over!" that's abusive. He seems to choose the hurtful words more often than not.

I've also learned that it was a mistake to confide in him about certain things such as my past history of panic attacks (MUCH less frequent in recent years) and my unsettling childhood. He throws those things at me as in "Look how weak you are!" or "Well, I guess you ARE getting better--at least you aren't afraid to drive anymore!" This said in a disrespectful and derisive tone. The other night he latched on to a radio host's talking about "perpetual victims," telling me that I'm one of those; I have to have something to feel like I'm a victim of. He then brought up my childhood and belittled my feelings that I was abused in some ways. Told me to "get over it."

I am not a perpetual victim! And I've dealt with the childhood stuff in as much as I'm over the anger. I'm at the stage where I'm working to understand how my childhood has influenced me.

I've noticed that when he gets really nasty, he closes his eyes while he "spews." Anyone else notice this?

Gotta go. Losing my privacy.

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

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Hi, Jay here,

Dear Becky, I can't see it is right for your husband to call you names. Or to treat you like he does. I've noticed that as I try to disengage with my husband, then he tries harder to wind me up. Or maybe it is harder, in my case, not to think I am being wound up. When I get really wound up I end up calling my husband names out of sheer frustration at what he has said and done and believe me I think at times anyone would. But I can't see it was right for me to do so and I think the things your husband says about you are awful and I would be upset too. I do think though that maybe your husband acts like he does as he knows he can get a reaction from you. You bet!

Maybe worth looking again at Dr I's advice or asking for clarification?

I have had the bit about the childhood too thrown at me. And my husband refuses to come in the car unless it suits him although I am a really safe driver. Admittedly, I am not sure that while I was stressed this is true. I have learnt that the last person I talk about my childhood to or anything that I find upsetting is my husband and make sure I talk to a friend instead. It hurts it is like this as I wanted a caring life partner. But I find at least this way I offset things. I didn't know the meaning of cat house. I don't think we have that term in the u.k so I am glad I know now. Hugs and prayers and lots of thoughts. jay.

Lynn - glad you sound more upbeat. Guess what time it is. My fault for going to bed so early. (It is about 4pm). I think that the hardest thing in the world is to see your own situation. I know what you mean about as you change the other person does too. I changed and my husband certainly doesn't like it. I swear he wants me home in the kitchen whatever he says to the contrary. years ago he had a fellow PhD women's libber in an almost all male college. She was a good friend to both of us and into women's rights. He would agree with her while refusing to let me buy the washing machine. It used to make me so mad as I felt I was treated like that while we had these women's rights type conversations with her. What I can't believe about myself now is I just didn't do the sensible thing and got into argument after argument as I was too afraid to buy one. It was perfectly o.k when I finally did. But the change that wasn't liked was that I stopped being so stupid!

Cat box bag ladies? I love it. I don't gamble but I realised yesterday I buy things as a sort of retaliation if I get mad. I am hooked on buying perfume and make up. This is crazy as I hardly ever wear the stuff. I think it is something about getting attention and for years I was really finding it hard to spend money on myself. Last time I did this being yesterday. It is a long story as to why. It included thinking I had no money and then discovering I had and having an argument about money and then getting so mad I thought right, bother you. Which my whole make up bag is a tribute to the times I got mad at my husband. Which, writing it down like this is totally daft as he wouldn't even notice if I was wearing the stuff. And he wouldn't know it is bought when I feel angry at him. How stupid can I get!

Lynn I also have clothes in 3 different sizes. I have never ever seen the bright lights. I was on a fery a while back with my son and we watched the roulette table. I longed to have a go. Just once. but I don't think I had better. It probably wouldn't have been just once.......

Steve, It would be lovely to get where you are at with the anger. Only I am unsure whether this could happen to me on earth. People do things that make me feel angry and i can choose whether to act the anger out, but I can't choose the angry feelings. How do you get to that point?

Asha, I really hope things work out whatever way you decide to go. I can identify with the need to babble. Hugs.

Asha and Steve, I think Lynn's earlier post for both of you makes loads of sense.

Astrid, I think apart from the housecleaning your dad sounds cool. You are lucky having had such good parents and maybe that is why you seem so clear headed in your posts.

Everyone else. Hugs. Love and happy Wednesday.

Love, Jay

 

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box, Lynn here and I love it. It's still Tuesday where I'm at.

Steve 1st, can you rephrase this? "I would like to point out where AK has made mistakes in her posts regarding me." Lynn

Dear Becky, I knew that. Just checking. The other I really didn't. I thought maybe you knew I asked what it meant with a twinkle in my eye. Now, how does a nice Baptist girl know about things like that? When I was in high school that was considered a fun date. We'd go get some cokes and park in the alley behind the cat house and watch. I'm not sure I even knew what we were watching for.

First of all, let's get this straight. Are you a leech? Are you a mistake? Are you a pea brain? Are you etc.? I couldn't find the post so I don't know what Dr. Irene replied. I'm going on one Dan and I had like that. Maybe you are to agree with him in the sense if he thinks that, he thinks that. That is his side or his reality. Can you just not take these personally, because if you were a pea brain, etc. what is the oaf still doing with you. Doesn't say much about him. Why would a man with an IQ over his shoe size be staying with a woman with ALL these defects?

4.0 I'm impressed. Do you suppose he is too and threatened and this is why he's trying to intimidate you down to his level?

So agree with him. (I suspect he'll find another tactic) but simply say OK fine and let it roll off. Dan tried this once and he hit some that hit home with me. He called me a bad mother, he called me a bad daughter and on top of all that I was a sl**. Truthfully, I never told him anything different. I agreed with him and asked him what his problem was? Stopped him in his tracks. I think it made him look the fool. (See, these big ones I can get. The covert ones go over my head). So try the Doc's advice and agree with him. I doesn't mean you have to feel that way about yourself, too. I had a suggestion and erased. I'm going to engage for you. Big grin. Don't engage.^_^

As for the closed eyes, I threatened to knock Dan through the windows and into the parking lot if he EVER again rolled his eyeballs into the back of his head when I said or asked hi something. Isn't that stuff infuriating? And how demeaning, too, if you let it. Walk away. I'm talking a good game, I don't always, but if I recognize it it makes me furious! That's what he's after I think. If you don't react he has to try something else. And he will! Right Trubble? He probably wants to go back to where he's comfortable in the relationship and I think you are changing and I'd bet he feels threatened.

OK Lady, 2 jobs and a 4.0 and a very warm compassionate and caring person. I remember the 2 page post you helped me through just by listening to me. Now you tell me who has a problem?

He can only convince you of all of this if you let him. Look at yourself and I think you know better and don't believe for a minute that you aren't a beautiful person.

I Love You (((BECKY)))

Dear Jay, I should have taken notes. At least Becky liberated you with our lingo. The ladies of ill repute even have a union and around here there is an old cat house turned into a museum and the gals and the bikers gather once a year for a rally. Sounds like fun. Any excuse for a party.

I sure hear you with the compensations we can tell ourselves we are entitled to. How irresponsible! Shame on us, but don't it make it feel better if only for a minute? And why on earth would you not be able to get a washing machine? I'm assuming that you wash his clothes, too. We tread lightly on these because Dan does like to "tell" me what I can have. I've learned to ask and he always says yes, but he likes to be asked. I've got bigger things to argue with him about than this one!

I used to go out a gamble because it was the one thing that was sure to trip Dan's trigger. Once I got his attention I thought we might be able to talk. Didn't work. This road didn't lead to Rome. I had to go somewhere else.

B, Theressa, Astrid, AJ and Asha, I hope you are well. Steve and Jay, jump in and sent some positive vibes to Becky. Dr. Irene and Trubble, too.

See you all tomorrow. Or is it today? Or does that make it yesterday? There! Figure that one out.

Much Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Hi All,

You've all just probably gone to bed, NIGHTIE NIGHT!!!! Me I am at work. Its 11.am UK time.

Anyway, for when you all wake up. Here goes......

I went to visit the YAK board yesterday, don't know why really something I saw from DR Irene about the abuse and bashing going on there I had to take a peek!! She's absolutely right. OH BOY I used to sound just like this ANGRY ANGRY PEOPLE WHO BLAME AND TRY TO CONTROL OTHERS. What came out of it though was I was able to see how stuck I used to be, how far I've come. I remember only too well how it feels when your partner won't help you out. I posted to a lady who complained terribly about how her husband wouldn't do anything for her. Then she started to act out. She stopped cleaning, cooking and doing anything around the house, the house is now like a pigsty. Well my house never got that bad but I am not judging the lady. JUST THANKFUL THAT I NEVER LET IT GET THIS FAR!!!

My advice was this, what do you all think? I'd love to hear!!!

I told her to list all the jobs around the house that were important to her and would enrich her life and satisfaction if they were done. Then I told her she had two choices. She could keep on complaining and getting angry and not be satisfied, and blame her husband who obviously got a lot out of her reacting to his poor behaviour. OR she could act, she could do the jobs for herself, she could stop thinking of them as benefiting him, but do the things which benefited her, for her. DETACHING SORT OF!!! If he commented she should say I am happy with it this way, your opinion is your opinion.

I also suggested she had a fix it party, whereby she could ask friends and family to help out with any jobs they could sort for her. The rest she could choose to leave or pay to be done, or try to do herself.

I said when you forget others shoulds and do what is right for your own well-being you don't need to resent others.

I know how hard it is to do all this and eventually as I did you might realise that you want more than your getting, living with someone who doesn't want to be intimate. STEVE, DAN, I want to hold my glass up to you two, you both are working on yourselves so I certainly don't mean you two here!!!!

I didn't say this to the lady, I merely wanted to help her to survive until she is ready to make her own decisions, though others were pushing her to leave. And calling this husband of hers etc manufacturing anger.

I HAVE A QUESTION: 
we'll be back guys. good night.. so behind... 

Can any of you answer. STEVE AND DAN MAYBE!!! Is it possible to meet a man who can be emotionally honest about there feelings?? OR Is it true that men just don't talk about feelings, instead its better to give them space and work out things alone???

I am interested because I am not wanting to be expecting in the future the unexpectable. CAN DR IRENE COMMENT???? OR TRUBBLE???

Further, when we're going through inner child work - our histories in therapy and talking about our childhoods, where does our recent past come into it. WHY DO I ASK THIS??? Well if at any time I hear my ex use the word arsewipe, or any other name he used in the past even to others IT PUSHES MY BUTTONS!!!! If I hear him bantering, like joking like he might say your a tosser to a mate IT PUSHES MY BUTTONS even though its not directed at me. WHY DOES THIS HAPPEN??? [Dr Irene or anyone else???]

Speak to you all soon, Halloween here was fun, I took my daughter and my sisters took their kiddies to a halloween party, noisy fun. All of a sudden my mom walks into the party which was held at her local public house. In with her walked my ex, "Hi, do you want a cola" so I had a cola, he said "T, I just couldn't miss seeing Missy dressed up, so I got up and came down to see her." I said "Okay".

DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS STRANGE TO ME, THIS GUY FOR YEARS BEGRUDGED DOING LOTS OF THINGS, NOW HE IS DOING THEM WITHOUT ANY NAGGING. OH BOY!!!! MAYBE ME LEAVING HELPED MORE THAN I BELIEVED!!!!

Thanks to you all Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Hi Cat box family,

I want to share a terrific book with you all that is helping me to make the drastic changes I have been making. For years and YES years my office has been very untidy. Why well I didn't have a vision of how else it could be until I got this blue print shown at the end of my post.

Now its tidy and I like it tidy. I never thought I'd say that, more effective and PLEASED with myself. This amazing book is about NLP neurolingistic programming. I've looked around for along time to find a book on NLP that was easy to apply now I've found it. I am near the end of the book and boy its been worth reading. I am gonna go through it again to complete the exercises.

Here's the prize book: Mindworks : Unlock the Promise Within : Nlp Tools for Building a Better Life by Anne Linden, Kathrin Perutz. Mass Market Paperback (November 1998) Our Price:$6.29 You Save: $0.70 (10%)

Order from Amazon.com

Hope this can help you guy and gals as much as its helping me to make the changes I need. TIP change anything, and your life starts to change.

BLUEPRINT FOR SUCCESS HOW TO REACH YOUR SMART OUTCOME

Definition

1. What do I want? Answers must be stated in positives Answers must be under your control.

2. How? What or who? Where? When? With whom? How much? How long? Answers must be specific.

3. How will I know when I achieve my outcome? What will I Be doing, thinking, feeling? Answers must give evidence of success.

CHECK

4. How will my outcome affect my entire life? Family And my intimate relationships? Social life? Work? Health? Spiritual concerns? What are the advantages And disadvantages of achieving my outcome? Answers must be ecological for entire fabric of your life

IMPLEMENTATION

5. What resources do I have or could get to that would help me Achieve my outcome? (Resources creativity, patience, confidence, assertiveness, attitude, appitude, skills etc) Answers must label resources that you already have or could Get that would be specifically helpful.

6. Where am I now along the path to achieving my outcome? Answers must define how close or how far you are in relation To success and give the specific next steps you must take to Reach it.

SUMMARY A smart outcome is: stated in positives, under your control, Specific A smart outcome has: evidence of success, ecological Consequences, use of resources.

 

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Oh crumbs, I just went into the catbox. Sorry everyone my computer kept telling me I had failed to get through when I pressed the submit button. Testing..........Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Haven't found the post explaining how I got to press the submit button 4X. I'll leave the explanations for now. Just in case that post got through.

Theressa, thanks for the post. I will write that all down somewhere to use.

I think I am turning into my own person. Lynn, the reason I get in such a muddle is that I always did ask but always got the answer no even to things that were reasonable. It was a sort of religious problem for me. I got trained into that way of thinking by evangelical Christianity. I still have my faith but I also have my common sense now!

About the stuff on the Yak boards. Funnily enough when I looked this morning I had a bit of the same reaction as Theressa. But I think it is a good place to vent and I have used it like that. Sometimes you just want someone to say "there, there" and I don't think that Dr Irene is fortunately for us likely to do that. I do think it gets a bit overweighted on the anger side. But then that is part of the process of changing and I hope that the people who use it also read the site. Some of them do have real and serious needs and are just starting on the journey to healing. I had to vent my anger a lot before I got to thinking about changing. I do wish some of the people who post there would post here instead. But maybe we need a neighbouring catbox or there will be too many cats. I chose the catbox as I knew Dr. Irene was overseing it and I wasn't going to get away with staying stuck. I think that it is really important for hurt people to have a starting place.

Trubble - don't get on the ship yet still too many storms. One is brewing now I suspect. Also the ferries and presumably bigger boats can't dock!

Finally someone who might be able to do something about it got a handle on the situation with my daughter. It is a long week though when she stil hasn't phoned.

Dr Irene, HUGS. i am still evolving. Going overboard on not letting anyone mess with me..........Still thinking of being a psychologist. They might let me in as one of the mad ones - I am sure they have a quota for these. I used to work in a psychiatric hospital when I was very young (17). There were some there who were batty as fruitcakes. One watched me walk accross the grass to my her office one day, and then said "How did you get here?" There was no other way. I also worked on a ward where the ward sister made me take her blood pressure several times and had a little colony of patients meeting her every need. Control gone crazy. It is reassuring to know there are sane people like you in the world. I have no complaints about the psychologists I saw when I was ill. They were lovely.....

Lynn about the make up....yeah, actually I love getting it. I make sure I get somewthing with a free gift atached so I get more than one treat. I think I will actually start wearing it every day. I will have to to use it up before it is out of date. Why not also change my appearance. \

Mind you if I keep standing up for myself will I become a formiddable battleaxe!

Good grief I didn't mean cats as in American, as in "one cool cat."

did you know in England it is legal for a child under four or a sixteen year old to live in a brothel?

Seriously, I Just read that the mediction I have ben taking can have a really bad effect as you come off it. So if I get a bit stupid I am not reducing the dose in the right way. I will talk to the new doc tomorrow to check. I just want to know I am really better.... Can't work out why I feel so o.k but maybe it is because I am taking my own power.

love to everyone, Jay

 

 

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Dear all,

must have been some solar outburst to make us all feeling so out of sorts at the same time!! And all the birthdays.... HAPPY BIRTHDAY EVERYONE. I'm not a Scorpio, I'm right in the middle of Taurus and Twins. C. is a Scorpio though, if ever there was one. Troublesome people Sorpio's :) So there's some connection. I guess I just feel attracted to Scorpio's. Can I still join in and stay at the Cat House community once in a while? I bake great cakes and am very good with vegetables (yes Asha, I am a vegetarian, just an occasional fish)

I'm feeling a lot better and I do hope the rest of you also. I sorted out my anger at C. for what happenend. I still intend to speak to him about it, but most of the anger is gone. It was by far the worst feeling of anger I ever had, and very disproportional to what actually happened. There was quite a lot of old anger in it and I feel very relieved with that all gone.

It will probably pop up at some other occasion again, but what the heck, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I can almost laugh at my anger now. I called a few frineds and really vented at them, like C. was the worst SoaB ever to have walked the face of the earth.

Woow, I'm learning to be angry!!. Had the good sense not to contact him till I was sure what this was all about, but I started working on an e-mail, which was sort of a promise to myself that I would not let this thing slip by and it helped me to cool it. So I didn't act out, and yes Dr. I. this time I am very proud of myself. I felt very yukkie, but I really do feel so much better now. And by the way Lynn, I am sure you are right about men feeling that sex is somehow to make up. I know that's part of what happened, it even felt like an apology, especial in retrospect

 

Dear Becky, I think you may have understood Dr. I's comment wrong. I think she said the bad names were his problem and to leave it. That he might say some things worth thinking about, but even so, not to think about them right now. And really I am quite sure that she did not mean that he might be right in calling you pea brain or whatever and I think you really know that too. Hope you are feeling better now.

Lynn you said >>I truly don't like feeling like it's my responsibility for US. Again, I know I took it, but it doesn't mean I liked it. >> Oh, I do recognize this. When C. and I still lived togehter I always felt everything was my responsability. It was partly due to the circumstances (He was a foreigner here when we met and didn't speak the language or anything), but it sort of got common practice and I really hated it (so actually did he, that's why he finaly left, to get to stand on his own two feet). But is't so hard not to take that responsability, is it not?

And Steve, why are you baiting Asha? We (at least I) do not think she is an angel, nor you a demon and you problably know that too, just want to hear a compliment (:-)). I think you have every right to keep your children away from her if you feel it would not be good for them. But I do feel, you owe her the courtesy of explaining it to her. I am not sure why you are so mad. I reread Asha's post, and I cannot find things offensive enough to merrit so much anger. You explained she is like angry all the time. Maybe she acts like that, and if so, maybe she should not. But please remember she is fighting a battle too, she is also getting frustrated, cause she had really hoped for a family dinner and it was off again, apparently without any real explanation. But if you read her posts, you can see she is also questioning herself, she is not just blaming you, I feel, just searching, like you are.

But it's a tough fight, for both of you, for all of us. We can make it and as you said earlier, we are all learning so much, seeing new things in ourselves and our mates, so many hopes, dreams. Don't give up now, there's still so much learning and growing to do. Lots of love to both you and Asha and I go with Lynn: I still believe you'll make it, you love each other, If not, you wouldn't have gone to all the trouble so far!!! Take care.

Love to all the rest of you. I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the reading and not nearly enough time for writing. But as Lynn says: I am thinking of all of you and sending lots of love, hope and happiness.

Trubble, one Trout comming up.....

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box Family,

Lynn here with some thoughts. My 3 dayer I think. First of all with the language, the Lord's Name is one that makes me shudder. One of the Ten Commandments and believe me I can have language befitting of a cat house, but THAT I don't like other people to use.

Then I'd best apologize to Becky's husband. I didn't like him calling her names so I call him an oaf. Makes sense to me! Okay, I think he's acting like an oaf.

Theressa, Glad you had a fun party. And Jay, I got a clue about the clothes from your posts. Dan's been "helping" me with the laundry (unasked). He washes, drys and puts them on the bed and so I move them to the chair. You can't see the chair anymore. I can take care of my own laudry. I wish he'd seal up the trailer, seal the windows before winter, haul some wood in, there are tons of things he could be doing rather than the laundry. Maybe we should just each do our own.

Steve, this is because of you and a comment you made. You said that you wanted to point out where AK made mistakes about you. I keep doing this about Dan. I was hoping you would/could come up with another way of saying this.

If you read a bunch of postsand if Steve were signing his name "Alice" or something he sounds just like us! I'm keeping Dan out of this because I'm trying to untwine, but he may, too. I'll bet it's tough because we are so mad at our men, Asha included that I think you have shown great courage posting. Me thinks you should write your own post to Dr. Irene and take your chances getting a board that we're welcome to join. I'm not sure, but maybe the paid email can get posted.

We all have a story, we all have a gripe, I don't think ALL these are directed at Steve, but being male I think it might make you feel defensive and just have a need to defend the male gender.

This helped me so much though. I can't see beyond Dan and I, but I can relate to Steve and Asha.

Here are some things I've said: If Dan would only. If Dan doesn't. Here's where Dan is mistaken. I need Dan to. I can't stand it when Dan does. I wish Dan did. I wish Dan didn't. Etc., etc., etc.

What I think Dan knows about me. I'd do just about anything to change "his" thinking. I don't want to live without him. I am very dependent on him. I am very entwined with some of his family. I dont want a divorce, separation, whatever. I want to wake up with him in the bed next to me. I like having him take care of me.

The list goes on and on. Then I get into my needs. Back to square one. He really does more than clean the "Cat Boxes." So what is the problem? I want so bad to fix this (him) and make this all better. I think after all is said and done I don't want to separate. After the other night, though, with the co dependency plant episode I feel mentally detached (after 3 days spewing here). I see why a separation or a divorce can make this work. It is so hard to detach when you/we are under the same roof, in the same business. I'm just thoroughly discusted with him that I could cry. The 3 days off! At the moment I don't care if he ever comes back. I even let the dog sleep on his pillows last night. Big NO NO! Am I letting the dog be the alpha male in the house?

Ok, Trubble, I don't get myself confused with the terminology, but is there such a thing as a mental divorce? When I divorced the kids dad he had lost the ability to hurt me. He say something and I'd just shrug. It really didn't matter. I would have never gone back. He simply couldn't "reach" me anymore.

I think what I'm asking is if I let go (I'm durned close) is it possible to get the feelings of love back? Is this the disengage and detach? Let them go, if only in our minds? I think I am afraid that if I do I won't even or ever remember what was good here. I don't want to spend the rest of my life living detached (my parents). I also think that whatever problems I brought into this relationship I would just take into another (like Steve with ALL his women) ? Too tired to grin, Steve.

Capsulized, I'm thinking this is the first step toward THE END. Now it's up to Dan, because I've given all I can give ..... So now I sit back and share the house and see what happens next?

Just thinking guys, pass over if you want. I've always felt that Steve and AK were very much in love with each other because they were still yelling at each other.

Time for step 2. Quit yelling. Quitting everything does not necessarily mean it's over. Just quit thinking....... and doing..

I'll have to give it a bit of thought. I think this may be when the tacticts get heavier and stronger. Scary, because I am not a shut my mouth person.

Love to all of you and thanks,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Lynn again,

Is it as simple as if Dan wants to regain his position as the alpha male, he'll have to earn it? I can't bestow it upon him or even beat it into him? Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

PS. And dan can't bully, bluster or clean his way into alpha? I saw the lower case "d" and I think I'll leave it. This is the cat box, should the guys be in the dog house? Makes me feel melon collie. hehe. Time to cheer up.

Jay, yes I know. Prostitutes are not necessarially bad mothers. Some are probably better than some of the "normal" type moms.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Dear Steve and AJ,

This feels so great, becuse I just got a call from Dan and my first reaction was, "OH, you men!" Really stupid thinking on my part. As for you AJ, it is as dumb as saying, "OH you people who aren't Scorpio's!"

I just let Dan engage me again. He's in a real hurry, and would I please go to the courthouse and see about an absentee ballot for him and how he has to get one. Of course. I hopped right to it!

Now I'm mad at me. He knew he might have to go out of town, he knew when election day was/is. So why do I have to do this for him? Because he knows I will. Flag waving and apple pie and hot dogs and all the rest. How could I not let anyone vote. Too late for this one, but am I seeing the light?

Steve and AJ, just because you are a guy and becase you aren't a Scorpio doesn't mean diddly does it? I bought into this like it was an honor to do this for him/her the Gemini.

The rest of you. I love you. Boy, do I feel dumb. Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

PS again, mom taught me well. Be anything , but don't be a witch. Men don't like witchy women. Amen, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Hi all.

Becky

I think what the Doc was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we tend to think 'everything' is abusive or unconstructive when our mates often throw abuse at us. Sometimes they may be saying something useful, but don't agonize over whether something he says is true or not when you are still trying to build up your own self esteem - when something feels yukky, step back and take time to think what was yukky about it. This is where I think it's easier when you have some distance from the person. It's easier to work on your boundaries because when you are physically distant you can remove yourself much easier. The problem with an abusive person is that when you do own up to your areas that need improvement, they tend to use it against you (and they sometimes exaggerate things a little ;) So it's really hard to share these kinds of things with them until they get healthier. If I was you, I would put more energy into building yourself up, and creating some physical distance when necessary when you get the yukkies. When your boundaries are firmer, it's easier to be objective about criticism. We all have some valid concerns about our partner's behavior and the impact it has on us, and I'm sure underneath your H's abuse there are some valid ones - but for now focus on what *you* think you need to improve.

hope that helps.

Theressa - I like your suggestion about changing perspective on cleaning, fixing etc. I think it's a good idea but I still don't like to clean up after other people's messes. This is where the 'you have this half of the house' and I'll have mine, might come in handy. But it's true that we get ourselves worked up over ridiculous things sometimes. Should we separate the Cat Box House Community Commune with a messy side and a clean side? Can we have one little area where our dogs can be on the sofa? Pleeease Theressa. I'll be heart-broken without my dog. :)

AJ - You can be the cathouse head cook. I would rather eat vegetarian anyway. Where should we locate the cat house? Somewhere tropical?

Jay's Hubby - please join us. We need more men on these boards. I think that when you are saying that Jay 'lies' you are just saying that you see things differently. Please tell us how you see them.

*** Well, we spent some time talking and I think Steve and I have figured out what some of our latest issue is about. And I have figured out where the anger was coming from.

I realize that my anger comes from my fear of not having boundaries. The only way I know for sure to enforce my boundaries is to get mad. This because I don't trust myself to follow through and I fear that my feelings for Steve will override what I know is right for me. This is what I did in the past. So it's my lack of trust for *myself* that creates the anger. The anger is the only way I know to keep myself safe. Now that I know this I can work on it. I have to increase my self confidence around these boundary issues.

We also discussed how Steve gives power to my anger. i.e. He had planned to apologize about interrupting me, was going to invite me to watch his kids sports activity, and arrange for the turkey dinner along with a visit to friends. But when he heard my anger, he felt he 'couldn't'. I think he now sees how he gave my anger a power that it didn't originally have. I know I would have been okay in a day or two, once I figured out what it was I was feeling. I think Steve does want to compromise, hear me out etc. but I really fear the old patterns and I'm afraid that I myself will let things slip by not being firm when things are not okay for me. How Steve responds to that fear can make the relationship either better or worse. I think he gets frustrated that I don't 'believe in him' (which is also a waste of energy) and then we do slip back to the old stuff.

We made up for some of it by having a nice dinner last night and *carving pumpkins*! We can try to still do something nice for the kids because one of their birthdays is coming up.

Steve and I have a long way to go, but if we can just stay on this track.....! I don't think it's all going to be easy.

I think the solution is for me to acknowledge my anger and let Steve know that I need some space to figure it out, and for Steve not to know not to take that personally. If he make decisions that are not swayed by my anger then we will both be better off. If I'm *that* angry with Steve, I won't want to be around his kids anyway. I do think I could have been over it more quickly if Steve had not felt threatened by it. I also do feel that kids need to see that it's okay to have feelings and that things *can* be worked out. It's not healthy for them to see people blowing up at eachother, but I think it's healthy for them to see that we are open about it when there is a problem, and committed to finding a solution.

Thanks AJ and Lynn for your great faith in us. And thanks everybody else for your good thoughts and support.

Prayers & Good Wishes to All.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Update. Lynn again.

Steve and Asha, I wish you both the best. Good Luck, I know you care a lot about each other.

I just got a copy of Dan's sisters death certificate in the mail today. This is his story so please don't ask me any questions. It's just enough to know that the death was investigated, it was accidental and she was presumed dead before Dan even started looking for her. I shared this because of all the caring about this and also so we could all learn that after 36 years of guessing and gossip the story is really quit simple. It was just one of those accidents. One of those things that are unexplained yet happen in the best of families. No reason, just a tragic accident by a child playing hide and seek (on death cert) and not knowing the dangers of where she was hiding.

Thanks for your support to both of us on this. I'm greatly relieved, too. The gossip conjured up some ugly possiblities.

Prayers for Little Sister. I hope she can rest in peace now.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Becky, Have you read Recovery Map: Life during and after Abuse?

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 01, 2000

S1

Dear All,

I never thought that Dr. Irene was saying that it's okay for him to say nasty things to me, call me names, etc. I guess i was thinking this way: If he calls me a leech, maybe there's something legitimate in that that I should think about--maybe I am "using him" financially? I know I'm not! I didn't marry him to use him! This is one of his pet paranoias: women use men.

I'm convinced that his idea of who I am and who I should be has very little to do with reality. Example, I believe that he wants me to work for him because he believes that a man's wife should work in his business. His wanting me there has nothing to do with my abilities or what I have to contribute; he just wants me to do what he wants me to do--period, nothing more. I've told him that I need to know that I'm appreciated, that my particular abilities are valued. For example, I'm really good with people, I'm a good organizer, and I write well (couldn't tell it by these posts, though!). Conversely, I'm not so good at bookeeping or other record keeping; it bores me and I hate numbers.

Seems to me the sensible thing to have done in the beginning would have been to sit down and ask me if I wanted to work there, then ask what I wanted to do, and then find things for me to do that fit my abilities. I also wanted to be assured of his respectful treatment. But that didn't interest him, and he's held this against me for ten years.

Lynn, Your question as to why he would stay with someone as defective as I is a good one! He has told me that he stays because he knows I'd never make it on my own; I'd end up living at the rescue mission. How kind to put up with me to save me from poverty! YUK! Typical abuser talk: You'd never make it without me! Actually, I think he's afraid that I COULD!

When I was in college, he kept saying to me just wait until you get your first C. Wait until you work and work, but you can't get anything better than a C." (He had this experience in one of his courses). Well, I'm not bragging, but I never got a C, except in a below college level math course that I just died in for some reason. All the rest, including math, I got A's and B's. I graduated summa cum laude from community college, and magna cum laude from the private college I transferred into --and it's a tough school!

I'm proud of myself! I worked hard! I found out I had a brain! Sometimes he'd say he was proud, but other times he seemed bugged for want of a better word. Once he even remarked that I must be sleeping with my profs to get the good grades! I also found it odd that when I was ready to graduate from community college (Right before we married) he kept mentioning that he didn't bother going to his graduation, and that he enlisted and insisted on being shipped out before hand. I almost felt like he was implying that graduation from a junior college is trivial. Maybe not, but he kept telling me this story. When I graduated with my BA he hosted and paid for a dinner afterward for me and both our families, which was very nice. So, as always, I'm confused as to what his real feelings are!

Now, i want to apologize for talking about my grades, but I'll shake off the urge to feel guilty for giving myself credit for something !

A couple of you talked about how difficult it is to detach when you're still living together. So true! I am getting to the place where I wish we could separate just to give me some relief from the pain of sleeping next to a guy who just doesn't "get" what a big deal this problem is! Knowing that he's willing to coast from day to day, "trying", i.e. hoping that things will fall into place with little or no effort, really pains me physically and emotionally.

The time isn't right, though, but the idea of separation seems more plausible these days, and that's new. It may take awhile, another year anyway, but I know that despite the fact that I wish I could, I CANNOT live this way indefinately.

Lots of stuff to do for tomorrow, so better go. Sleep tight, everyone! (((((HUGS!))))

Becky

 

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Jay said: "Steve, It would be lovely to get where you are at with the anger. Only I am unsure whether this could happen to me on earth. People do things that make me feel angry and i can choose whether to act the anger out, but I can't choose the angry feelings. How do you get to that point?"

I'm not there yet Jay (but I think I can do it). I still get angry. I just recognize that I'm CHOOSING to be angry. I still have to work on choosing NOT to be angry. It's very challenging. I am very interested in it, especially at the exact moment when I am confronted with someone saying something that I feel offended by. I think it's fascinating to notice my own mind's workings as it travels its way to anger. I think it helps to allow the anger to form and watch HOW it forms. After that, I am getting better at throwing it off.

I had a big fight with the X last weekend and I felt I made a huge stride when I stopped, reached out my hand, and said sorry. She took my hand and said sorry as well. There were tears in her eyes...she knew we were hurting each other in a tit for tat fashion. All it took was for someone, anyone, to swallow their silly pride.

It's strange, but something about overcoming anger reminds me of overcoming shyness. There were times when I felt intimidated by some sort of situation and I just said to myself "Why?", and forced myself to face whatever I was "afraid" of. It's like knowing you should do something, and actually doing it, even though you have a fear of it. I think I may have a fear of NOT being angry. Weird eh?

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

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Becky said: "I've noticed that when he gets really nasty, he closes his eyes while he "spews." Anyone else notice this?"

I can't help but think of how a shark rolls it's eyes up just before it strikes. Grin.

I don't think Dr I thinks you are any of those things you mentioned. I think she probably wants you to think about what you could be doing that makes him want to be so cruel.

Is this during a heated fight that he calls you a pea-brain? If so, he is probably just doing the tit-for-tat, on the merry-go-round. Are you calling him a jerk/a$$hole etc before he does this? Obviously, he knows your buttons very well, just as you know his. Get rid of those buttons. I'm just about 100pct convinced that it's our own buttons that hurt us, not the person who pushes them.

Keep the faith Becky. We are all pulling for you. And your man.

Here's something that I remembered...some years ago I used to work on a boat, where people would get seasick very frequently. Our captain would come around as someone was throwing up over the railing and say to them - "Gee, no wonder you're sick, you had all that puke in your stomach!".

I'm wondering if that is a little bit like our buttons. Aren't they what's really making us sick? They make us feel hurt, and they make us hurt back. Very nasty things those buttons.

Steve

 

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Theressa: "Is it possible to meet a man who can be emotionally honest about there feelings?? OR Is it true that men just don't talk about feelings, instead its better to give them space and work out things alone??? "

This is tough. I'm not sure women are all emotionally "honest" about their feelings. Emotional yes, honest...not always. Men definitely are conditioned to suppress their feelings.

They like space anyways, just because it's safe. At least the men I know do. Times are getting scary for men. Most of the men I talk to are getting very wary of women in general. Instead of becoming more open to women, I see them getting more withdrawn.

There's been a lot of broken hearts and families, lots of men denied access to their children, and every guy knows some man (or has experienced it themselves) who has had his life ruined by the family courts and a vindictive woman. There's lots of fear out there now, and a lot of distrust.

I talk to men about this quite alot, and I think women are going to have to take a much more active role in changing this. Our societies have developed a very lucrative divorce/custody industry and it's tearing men and women apart.

Dr Irene would say it's my anger that makes me think this, and I would disagree with her - as I still do on the meds issue.

Men do talk about feelings, to each other. I've noticed this increasing very much in the last 10 years. We are still wary of exposing our feelings to women though, probably because we know we have a lot to lose. We are the underdogs when it comes to families and relationships, and we know it.

We are scared. Just scared.

Hopefully, women will start to understand this, and stop treating men so poorly in divorce/custody cases. Otherwise, things are likely to get worse before they get better. Just my opinion.

Steve

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Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

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Lynn...I am amazed at your suggestion for a "doghouse". I was just thinking that exact thing the other night. A place for men to moan and whimper about all their female-related woas. Grin.

Although I kind of like the challenge of facing all these wild-cats that frequent the cat-box.

I'm 2 tir3d to wrtie more tongiht.

Have a hoppy alloween boxing day everyhone.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

DEar Asha, I haven't got round to reading the posts really properly this morning, but I am so relieved you posted again. I was going to write and ask if you were o.k as I realisd we have all been talking to Steve which is great, but you had gone a bit silent. I am glad you two made it up. Hope it works out now.

I hope this post gets thrpugh as I am only pressing the button once. I wrote a long post last night and it didn't get through. On reflection, it was probably just as well as I was making a complete fool of myself as I had got so angry. It involved a suggestion that Lynn and I had a tug of war with some dirty washing with Dan nd my husband.......

This is because I climbed well and truly into the sandbox in an argument about the washing. The retaliation to my saying I would so my own was for my husband to take the car keys and say that he was taking them until he could do the washing as I said he couldn't use my washing machine....washing my dirty linenm in public here! There was obviously lots more behind this, but good grief talk about two kids. Sort of like that thing where kids snatch something and then there is a fight and they end up hitting one another. Trouble is we didn't have a grown up to separate us and take the toys away!

And I still feel angry. Woke up this morning thinking I had insomnia as I was so mad and then realised it was gone 7. Then the thought struck why don't I love myself and respect myself enough not to let myself get into these situations.

Going to see the new therapist later. Awful thing is I still haven't cancelled the old and more expensive one. She is just so good but I need a weekly input and I could never afford to do that with her. I just keep thinking one more time. We only have 2 more sessions anyway.

And guess what I did yesterday. Signed up for a course in counselling co dependents. Not that I intend to do this and as it is a distance learning thing then I doubt if the qualification is worth the paper it is writen on, but I made my decision while I am not working. I am going to study stress management, aromatherapy and get the advanced bit of the counselling skills. I already have some qualifications in this. But I guess first, it is a case of physician, heal thyself!

Becky - take your power on those qualifications. They mean something. You are one bright lady.

This is sharing about me, but it might be relevant to you. But I think I needed my husband's validation on my qualifications for years. Something to do with my own lack of confidence in myself. As if I didn't feel they were good enough and that I had succeeded in my own right. Now I am starting to think I can do it on my own. I can be good at something and my husband is not geting a look in at it. I got very similar treattment to you. It is confusing. But only confusing if there is a need for another persons approval. At least that is whjat I concluded for me. My husband is very very intelligent with all the letters after his name and I realised I don't need to fel inferior to him. I have different letters. They are just different and I can use my own qualities to improve my life and unles he can be supportive on a continual basis it is non of his business. I just don't need the negative junk.

 

Lynn - in my bedroom every surfaceis covered with clothes. If we didn't wear them in the cat house then we could solve a lot of problems! No stupid washing for a start.

Also, Trubble, I just wanted to check,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Hi All,

Asha - Glad you like my suggestion. Though don't get the idea I am mega tidy, I am not. Though am realising being organised somewhat doesn't have to be rigid and boring. You see for 7 years cleaning has been a HOT topic in my relationship with my ex, so I rebelled, this is why I knew how this lady felt, this is the beauty of already been through it, experience after the event so to speak. I know now how I helped create this problem, MY ROLE EH!!!!

No neither do I asha like cleaning up after others mess!!! Now I live alone it doesn't matter anymore, BUT I still get angry when my ex visits and I am relaxing and he says make a cuppa T, if I don't want to he will sulk and well now I am learning to let him sulk, and say I don't want to make a cuppa, you can if you want to.

THE only time I definitely wouldn't tidy up after someone else is, if they'd had a tantrum. ITS their mess, their tidy up unless they want to leave it their for eternity. I learnt this along time ago. NEVER CLEAN UP AFTER ANYONES TANTRUM, ONLY YOUR OWN. OTHER WISE YOU ENABLE THEM TO CONTINUE.

You see I understand having this half for you this half for me, though, I believe STRICTLY that if you can't both be reasonable long term, the RELATIONSHIP IS DOOMED and I just wouldn't live like that. This is why I moved out eventually, I just didn't want a relationship that was so unreasonable. HEY I DESERVE MUCH BETTER!!! LOL!!! Though a lady the other day, I asked, [she seems to be in a healthy relationship, I said "I don't get it? how'd you live with someone when you both have different values, ideas and ways of doing things? She said "Well I have my roles and my husband doesn't intervene in these areas, though he might say once in a while why do you do x? and I'll reply cos xxxx and he'll say oh would you try xxxxx? and I might say YEAH or NAR its not for me. THEN he leaves it. The same with his roles I keep out of them for the most part. YOU SEE RELATIONSHIPS HAVE TO HAVE TWO REASONABLE PEOPLE ALOT DO!!! I MEAN SOME THINGS ARE JUST NOT A BIG DEAL, IF THERE ARE THINGS which are a BIG DEAL then whoever thinks so will TAKE ON THIS ROLE or WE WILL SPLIT THE ROLES NO ONE WANTS TO DO, this is compromise, BUT some relationships which are destructive are all onesided this can't happen and they are DOOMED to be RUINED.]

So glad not all relationships are as destructive as mine was!!!

ASHA if your spouse is okay with the dog on the sofa why not!!!! You see in my opinion there is unhygienic, DIRTY cups all over the house, pots left in the sink for weeks on end, trash not put out for collection. AND there is untidy, A FEW BOOKS here and there out of place. A FEW CATs hair on the sofa. [But not in the kitchen LOL] The odd few crumbs on the carpet, NO BIG DEAL IN MY OPINION, THEY WON'T STOP YOU BEING HEALTHY, NOW a big personal boundary has got to be - Keep physically healthy and emotionally - SO THAT WHERE THIS COMES INTO SELF CARE!!!!

POEM:

THIS HOUSE IS CLEAN ENOUGHT TO BE HEALTHY, BUT UNTIDY ENOUGH TO BE HAPPY!!! is the key!!!

STEVE - I hear what your saying and I agree totally!!!! Men are given a tough RIDE sometimes. Well lets just say I learnt alot from hearing others stories. I learnt from their mistakes. When we separated I was determined that my daughter wouldn't miss out on either parent so she'll have a room at my home and a room at her dad's home. She can bring her toys, clothes and any of her possessions to either house. She helped set up when she visits her daddy, every second weekend starting soon as he moves in his new place. She helped work out that daddy could come three times in the week for an hour. I consult him regarding all major things, like hospital appointments. A friend's wife didn't do any of this, infact it was as petty as the child had to change clothes at whoevers house she was at. The swabbles have been a nightmare. YOU SEE ITS ME AND MY EX WHO SEPARATED NOT MY DAUGHTER AND HER PARENTS. WE'VE BEEN HONEST ALL ALONG THE WAY.

ITS NOT DIVORCE WHICH HURTS CHILDREN THE MOST, ITS THE SWABBLES OVER SILLY THINGS THAT HURT CHILDREN THE MOST.

Though Steve I must say that in very ABUSIVE HOMES SOMETIMES what is best is for the children to not see the VIOLENT, abusive partner whether man or woman.

Though I do believe women are naturally better at looking after the children from an emotional point of view. AM I GENERALISING, probably!!!! I don't know if any of you agree, though I think that being EQUAL means being valued as a wholesome human being regardless of your resources, you contribute however, you contribute in the world. THough I still believe that we are all good at different things and are here for different purposes, so I think men are physically stronger and some roles are better equipped for and women are communicators and good at problem solving so it is easier for them to mother children.

I HOPE I HAVEN'T OFFENDED ANYONE. THIS IS MY OPINION AND ISN'T FACT!!!!

I used to think staying together for the sake of the children no matter what, MATTERED MOST!!!! I've since through this value away. ITS is nonsense, what matters most is that children have a safe healthy environment and GOOD ROLEMODELS!!! ITS the quality of their environment not the CONTENTS.

Anyway less of the waffling, speak to you all later. Theressa school parents nights etc.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Hi Catbox family,

I wanted to share this with all of you.

 

LIFE ALWAYS GIVES BACK WHAT YOU GIVE OUT

From a story recently passed on to me...

 

A man and son were walking in the forest. Suddenly the boy trips and feeling a sharp pain he screams, "Ahhhhh."

Surprised, he hears a voice coming from the mountain, "Ahhhhh."

Filled with curiosity, he screams "Who are you?" but the only answer he receives is: "Who are you?"

This makes him angry so he screams: "You are a coward!" and the voice answers, "You are a coward!"

He looks a this father asking, "Dad, what is going on?"

Son, the man replies, "pay attention!". Then he screams, "I admire you!"

The voice answers ""I admire you!"

The father shouts, "You are wonderful!" and the voice answers, "You are wonderful!"

The boy is surprised, but still can't understand what is going on.

The father explains, "People call this 'Echo', but it is truly 'Life!' Life always gives you back what you give out! Life is a mirror of your actions.

If you want more Love, give more Love! If you want more kindness, give more kindness! If you want more understanding and respect, give more understanding and respect. If you want people to be patient and respectful to you, give patience and respect!

This rule of nature applies to every aspect of our lives"

Life always gives you back what you give out. Your life is not a coincidence, but a mirror of your own doings.

~ Author unknown

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

How to free yourself from your ego and live from your True self - your Spirit

By Paul Bauer

 

 

If we desire true freedom, freedom from any outside 'event' that seeks to tie us down, we need to understand the ongoing struggle that our egos intend to have with our True selves. Real freedom begins with the ability to understand that we are the thinker of the thoughts in our heads, but not we are not the thoughts themselves. We create these thoughts, they do not create us. We can exercise our ability to 'watch' these thoughts as they come in and watch them as they leave-and being aware that watching them is a state of strength in itself.

Q. What do you mean by the phrase "True Self" Answer. Your true self is your Spirit. The part of you that has no boundaries-no limitations. To understand this is to live your life with no fear. Only your ego fears anything. Your True self - your Spirit - knows that in order to truly free yourself from your ego and its ceaseless mind games, you must face your fears.

A quote from Guy Finley's insightful book "The Secret of Letting Go" reads:

"Just dare to proceed even while being afraid. But remember, your new aim isn't to be courageous or to try to act strong in the face of fear. No. We've seen that this won't work. You simply want to be be more curious about your frightened thoughts and feelings than you want to believe in them. If you follow this simple but Higher Instruction, not only will you start to see these habitual reactions that have been keeping you scared and running, you'll actually start seeing through them."

Try practicing this wisdom in your life. Try to step back from your thoughts and sense that you are the thinker of your thoughts, not the thoughts themselves.

 

Q. "How do I know the difference between my true self and my false self" (ego)? Answer. Ask yourself, "Which provides me more peace?" And sit back and watch and see how you react to your own routine thoughts and feelings. As you can do this, the light of your True self that once seemed dim will continue to brighten.

Q. "Isn't it better to just move on and not acknowledge the past or the pain?" Answer. Trying to move beyond a problem without first understanding it is like asking for directions from someone who has never traveled the land you seek - and with no map. They have been using a map based upon ego - What I call the "map of the ego".

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

I didn't get to finish my post this morning due to my son enterng the room and deciding that I was writing to internet lovers! Had to press the submit button in a hury and then failed to find the therapist. probably because the whole town was gridlocked due to the weather. I passed a swan earlier swimming happily 2 fields away from the river. At this rate we will need an Ark. Is it as bad where you live, Theressa? actually, I think a lot of towns are worse off than mine. Someone I know through the internet wrote to me earlier that Texas is crying out for rain. So is it really hot in the US?

Great time at lunch time with my friend who got out of being codependant before it got fashionable and has really become her own person. I just never realised that was what she was going through as we didn't have the terminology for it.

In fact, I just think most English people aren't too sure what I am on about.

I keep thinking what am I prepared to accept and not accept. What do I really want? I think RESPECT is what meand most to me and I just don't feel that whatever I have done it has been respected by the men in my life.

I don't want my needs to have more weight; just equal weight

I want to be listened to. have what I say considered and not to be agreed with all the time but be able to discuss rational pros and cons.

I want a relationship where I am not continually worn out by petty arguments about things no sane person would feel the need to argue. Where there is the abiluty on both sides to compromise.

I wnat to feel that I parent together with someone not that i am treated as the less important one.

I want my boundaries respected. But I don't really. yet have a clear definition of my boundaries.

I want no more put downs and not to feel controlled.

I want to be able to share life and have interesting and rational conversations about interesting things with a life partner.

I don't want any more than the validity of my emotions acknowledged.

Why is it love is such a low priority....? Maybe these things are the components of love?

Actually, awe, mystery and wonder would be nice.

and spontenaiety.

And a normal socialising interaction withthe rest of the world.

Trust - mutual

I just can't find any of these things in the relationship I am in.

I wish I could as I don't want a different man.

But I just can't see it happening. All I feel is totally blamed for all that is wrong.

Dr Irene, I don't have to accept the blame. That I am sure of. But it sure hangs heavy trying to live with it just now. Like yesterday I accepted I acted like a kid but my partner didn't. He doesn't think his actions are wrong. He feels justified. What is it that makes someone feel so threatened that they are afraid to accept responsibility? Could they be afraid I would then control them?

I never did get that controlling someone else right. Thank goodness. As a kid I always managed t be the one who was too afraid to lead. Then I grew up and gained a collaborative style of teaching. Even there when I have moved into taking the position of control it goes stupidly wrong. I once had to give a verbal warning in a teaching situation to a student who certainly deserved it. She had me wrapped round her little finger in seconds. I was as usual too empathic and felt too sorry for her. I make so many excuses for people. I am so sure I must be wrong. I wonder how you get it right. Some days I even get manipulated into thinking I am wrong when I am right.

I have to get through this to a stronger and wiser position. When I am right and told I am wrong, then I get a sort of whoosh of fear. I need to find the strength and subsatance and courage of my own convictions. I am always so frightened I might be wrong.

Why am I afraid to be wrong? I don't even think this came in as a part of my upbringing. I think that feeling was there as far back as I remember. Somme genetic disposition. I can remember as a young kid being puzzled how other kids my age couldn't do things like the shape sorter. Those things seemed obvious; but the emotional things; I have memories of being frightened to take the biscuit in Nursery just in case I wasn't meant to have one. No awareness all the other kids did. This is a stupid thought, BUT I WISH TO HELL I HAD GRABBRD THE WHOLE PLATE just to learn it was safe to be wrong. And I wish I had told my reception class teacher I could read JUST TO KNOW I COULD BE RIGHT. This post is getting stupid so I think it is time to end this train of thought.

Time to look at a self esteem questionnaire? Time to stop the "YOU are the odd one out and the difficult one thinking. I think I had better borrow Therresa's book and get cracking!

Maybe this mood is a result of living in a basin and the drip drip drip of the rain.

Trubble, stay in the US. It is toooo wet. Unless you fancy a long swim. Give it another day and the goldfish pond will flood. That will be a treat for the local cats.

The new doc was nice. So nice I forgave her being an hour behind schedule. She wasn't keen on my stopping the medication for another fortnight though. Something to do with the way it works. Rats.

If I was an hour behind my schedule I would be very cross with myself. How come i judge myself so harshly? I just thought how hard it must be for her to be so far behind. Yet I was the one who was nearly getting a parket ticket and I probably wouldn't have felt it was her fault. - Theressa, You are so wise. All my life I have cleared up after other people's tantrums. My husband always cleared up after my daughter's even if she refused. I got so mad over this. I tried to put my foot down.....

I am going to stop waffling and start being positive.

love, Jay

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

So I suppose I ought to be asking how my lack of certainty in my own convictions affects other people? I guess I am giving a rough deal of mixed messages. I say this, but I am frightened it might be that. How wearing for the person on the other end and how confusing.

A nd now I am thinking how introspective. I need to get out of this and evolve into a living person again. Or except I don't really believe in it, get reincarnated as a cat. Preferably a house cat due to the rain.

I could be the catbox cat. As I can't think of any useful function I could perform as a human just now........Ah, then I wouldn't need clothes and I would still be respectable. Only could Lynns dogs let me havce a pillow? I am sheding hair by the bucketfull post stress reaction according to the doc so I will need my husband to clean up the hairs. Theressa, I love your poem. This house is a bit like your poem and the mess is all mine.

Happy preferably unwet Wednesday. Love Jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Dear Steve, your post to me makes sense. I love the bit where you just reach out and say sorry. tells me that what the problem is about being frightened of being wrong or thought wrong when I am right is my pride.

Do you think that all these problems in relationships are because of the seven deadly sins? I think they might be.

Another thing not to beat myself up about.

Thanks, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Dear Becky, AJ here

you wrote H. saying that he doesn't leave you because he thinks you won't make it on your own. So what, what's that to him, he doesn't have to save you does he? Me thinks he is afraid that he himself won't make it on his own, Which he probably never admit though. As for the grades, I think he may feel treathened by them. They show him, oke he is earning the money, but you are clever enough to do that by your self and where will that leave him. You might leave him all alone!! Becky, I think he is mortaly afraid to loose you, so he has to keep you dependent and not feeling strong. For he can't see that you might just stay with him out of love. He has to control you to keep you staying (he feels).

Not that these thought wil help how to handleteh situation, but maybe it you can see his fear/insecurity, it will be easier to time and time again tell him what you expect. And he asks you for that. maybe you should just try to tell him small and easy, clear stuuf. He may not be able to see the big picture, since he has never learned to view the world this way. It's kind of like when you teach a child algebra, you don't start with abtractions, you start with apples and eggs.

I think it is very hard to understand when someone asks you ‘to be nicer' without defining what that means to them. I think he just ,might want to try better but doesn't have a clue how to do it. You have to be the one to teach him what better is. Like maybe: I really hate it when you drive to hard when I am with you. Will you stop that, please. Or whatever. Just one thing at the time. Take care, we are with you and 100% behind you. Hug, lots of love and good feelings.

Asha and Steve

So glad you have been able to talk about what happened. It teaches me you people can get really mad at each other, but still love each other and talk about it. I never had an example like that at home. Will you two be my foster parents, pritty, pritty please??

And Steve, I agree, beeing vindictive is not, can not be the right way and a war of the sexes is not what we wantt be headed for. Sometimes it's hard though, because beeing nice gets you hurt very often. Even so, I do feel that I would rather get hurt than loose my capability for love and compassion. I know I am really capable of very abusive acts, I know I used to try to control C. cause I felt very insecure, and he rather seemed to want me in control. I can tell it here and Asha, or Lynn or Dr I. might say something was a controlling or abusve thing to do, but if C. would say it (whihc he wouldn't, yet I am afraid) I would get mad, or feel hurt or traethened. That's why it is such a good thing to talk here about these subjects, both men and women together, ‘abusers' and ‘victims'. It's easier to listen to you explain what you feel than to C. or Dan, cause, you are at a save distance, you are not able to hurt us. Our own men/women are. I read somewhere: To let go means to love more and fear less. I think that's what this should be all about, not to be ruled by fear, but by love.

Lynn, I don't know wether it is a definite bad thing to help Dan out when he asks you. What is important is that you feel you could say no, but that you can also choose to say yes. Helping you're mate is part what a relationship is about I think, or should be. It's just that you need to be able to choose wether you want, or don't want to help him. It's not the helping itself that is bad. I used to ‘help' C. without him even asking. Now, that's bad....I am trying to cut it back to helping only whemn asked :-).

Love you all, and hope you're sleeping tight and having pleasant dreams (Terasa end Jay, nice dreams for later)

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Dear Everybody,

Lynn here, with notes and so many tidbits I'll just make this a generic to all of the Cat Box and the Dog House. Big Grins :):):)

First, about Dan, he can sure be subtle and get me. I wish I were sharp enough to have caught it the 1st time. When he called last night he didn't even have a pen to write down the info and said the boss might give them Tuesday off to vote anyway.

I loved the bit about telling each other. Mygrandsonwas about 2 and he was bouncing his ball on the head of our old shepard dog and I let it go. Finally the do stood up and got in the boys face and went arff, grrrr! I worried for 1 second. The boy said,"He was just telling me,"don't do that PLEASE.'" He didn't do that anymore please, either!

As for internet lovers, just what we need is another man we don't understand! Grin here, too.

I read a lot and there are a couple of old autobiographies I adore. Some women were strong and independent before it was fashionable. I say this about my neighbor (86). She can get Dan to do anything, NOW. I was asked if this bothers me. No, I love strength and I'm taking notes. I can learn a lot from her.

I have it on our clothes. Becky, we'll come visit you at the Rescue Mission and get our clothes there on bag day and wear them once, and recycle them. Becky, would you hold the "good" stuff for us?

Jay, how great about the counceling. I think you'd be great at it. Same thing, I should get a job in alcohol rehab. I always questioned the Catholic priest doing marriage counseling. I don't think they can relate to what we are talking about.

Dr. Irene might have a quirk or two, herself, although I don't want to know. I don't think Trubble will tell. It's enough for me to know that she is human.

AJ, I'll try your advice. I'm afraid that when I catch on, Dan gets craftier. I have to catch them first. He knows my weaknesses.

Which brings me to Steve. Speaking as a woman I think I want to be in Dan's face when something is going on. I think e needs to retreat. The threat goes both ways. I fear rejection and he feels crowding and we both start with the buttons. Maybe we could use dog training on this. NO NO bad button and give it a time out. Funny thing, but the differences are what makes it so interesting, but also what get us in all the trouble.

Nice about the sorry to your X. The ALL the other woman! :) You might be sorry for lots you have done to each other. I think the forgiveness will give you and Asha a healthier re start, too. Nice for the children. Speaking of step children. I hadn't heard from my stepdaughter (late's child) in about 9 years. She's about 9years younget than me, so she's not a child either. My daughter had her email address and I mailed her a hello, I'm thinking of you one day. It started slow, but she sends a word or two almost every day now. Our extended families would be worthy of a book of their own.

Love the blueprint and echoing. Myproblem with any self help is spend all my time reading and not enough doing. Thanks Theressa. Astrid, too. I live in a trailer and I have a bowling alley for a hall. We put a ton of 1 X 4's there and it makes perfect paperback bookshelves.

PS Steve. I love your "puke" tale. How true! And Steve, I don't blame you for being scared. So are we. Sad about the divorce issues, too. It's not fair and most of all to the kids. The folks are stll hurting each other, just through the kids. Think of the batch of children that are being raised like that. Scary. I'm sorry for you and for all men in that situation (although some women fall into this category, too).

Asha, Cute story for you. I needed my gall bladder taken out and was sick. Dan's mother was telling me and everyody else that, "ALL those cats were using up all the oxygen and no wonder I was sick ALL the time." As for the dog. Oh, boy! I think he thinks he's going to be the man of the house. I think it's cute now, but he could get out of hand.

Jay, How is your daugter? How are you with it? Trust in God that you did right and she'll be ok. I know it seems young, but she must know what she's doing (or think she does).

Becky and all of us. We all have to work on our boundaries. Steve and Dan, too. Maybe we can use the cat box and the dog house as boundaries. When we need to we (girls) can get into our mental cat box where we know we are safe. Same with the men. Go into the dog house and separate. We seem to know our bounds here.

And I will leave with a bit of humor. In regards to cleaning up messes. My X (kids dad) threw a plate of something on the wall one day. I ended up cleaning it up. Later I had put a bowl of something on the floor for the dog and the dog didn't eat it so I picked it up and put it on the cupboard. X came in and took the bowl and got a spoon and started eating it! Well, I wouldn't dare tell him, would I? He'd only throw it into the wall. ^_^

Asha and Steve, Becky, Theressa, B, AJ, Jay, Astrid, Trubble and Dr. Irene, Love to all of you,

Lynn

And fasten your seat belts. Did you say no clothes

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

A short note-- Steve: When my H has referred to my pea brain it hasn't been in response to my calling him a name or telling him he's stupid. It starts by him telling me something in relation to the business or finances. I express an opinion or perspective that's different than his or that he feels contradicts him in some way. His "defense" is to tell me that I can't comprehend, and he tells me that in a very nasty way. I learned early on that if i don't see something his way, or if I question what or how he's doing something, I'm probably going to be labeled the enemy. He feels attacked, and as he so dramatically puts it "When I feel attacked, I WILL defend myself!" Once, the son of one of his customers called to complain that my H had been rude to her. The man was quite upset. My H told me about this and I asked him if he could have been rude to her. I wasn't confrontational, or smart alecky, I swear, I just asked "Could you have been rude?" I had overheard him being very rude to customers before, and I was asking him to realize that perhaps he had been. He blew up, and from that day on he's had another reason to not trust me, because i went "against" him.

You say that sometimes you're afraid not to be angry. I understand that completely! Anger can be a great motivator for me--it makes me get up and do something about a situation that threatens to overpower me. Also, for a long time I felt that my anger toward my H had to be expressed because if it wasn't he'd think i was okay with what he was doing. Now I understand that he does, indeed, love to push my buttons! He loves to see me angry because that means (in his eyes at least) that I've lost control, that he's hit a mark: H. 10, Becky 0!

I've noticed though, that he hates it when I adopt an I give up attitude, and he uses that to try to make me responsible for his behavior: "Okay, I'll just live up to your expectations! I'll do nothing to change myself." He's actually said that. So: he hates it (he says) when I'm mad, he hates it when I disengage and act as though I don't care. Either way, I can't win with him. By disengaging, I win with myself, though, so that's what i'm working on!

Also, i think that anger can be a protective wall behind which we retreat when we don't want to deal with whatever is so scary. This is why, in my opinion, it's so important to not get stuck in the anger mode. I think that there was a discussion (interactive e-mail) about this very subject over the summer, about a victim's anger. Justifiable anger is good and ascceptable, and should be used to energize us in a healthier direction. But anger that keeps us static just feeds on itself and is never resolved. What do you (and everyone) think?

This was gong to be short! Thanks Steve and everyone for your support! It means a lot!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

Hi Becky. Hi all.

I notice how, whether you are more on the 'victim' or 'abuser' side of things there are very similar angry feelings by both. Some protective and some designed to attack (maybe that's still protective).

Notice whenever a lot of us are angry we use words like "most of the time", "always", "never"...?

And get carried away imagining what the other person is thinking and reading far more into what the other says than was ever there in the first place?

And what if we were to stop giving it such great power over us? For example, a little test for me was my reaction to Steve's posts on Oct. 31. Did I like what he said? No. Did it push my buttons? Of course. Do I think it was mostly true? Not at all. But instead of reading "he means all this" I tried to see the intention behind it. Why do people do this to their partners? Because they love them. Silly, isn't it? Doesn't mean we should put up with abuse but I hope that we all get better at this kinda stuff, so we don't have to keep provoking each other.

AJ - I'll be your foster mom. (but I'll be a young mom for you, unless you're under 20. That's still okay. Or 'big sister' if you prefer.) You are pretty good example to me as well so we can both benefit.

Jay - what a nice person you are. Thanks for your concern about me. At the cat box community house you don't have to perform any useful functions - you just come as you are. So don't worry about that. We still want you. But let's locate in a sunnier spot with less rain, don't you think? Anyway I can see that you've contributed a lot on this board.

I vote Theressa as motivational trainer of the cat box house.

Lynn, I loved your story about the dog food. I guess life was echoing back as in Theressa's story.

hi everyone else.

must run for now.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

dear Everyone, At last the phone call from my daughter. Thank God! She had moved to a flat and moves into another flat tomorow, And wanted to tell me she had got onto a beuty therapy course she is still technically too young for - one with agood qualification and was planning to take her science exams. At last she seems to be showing some motivation.

And the closeness was back and she was talking about her anger. And her need for help to get her head sorted. And thalks to the catbox and the Site I knew just where I was coming from talking about relationships and I think she may be starting to hear. She is still with the 14 year old, but i think she was starting to question the wisdom of it. S o now it is late late late and I am doing her washing.

More to the point she said I love you too when I said I loved her.

I cried all the way home. Tears of joy.

My whole life is dominated by washing.............In the catbox I want to do the washing.......I was suffering from washing deprivation! I am enjoying doing the washing at about 3am in the morning.

One thing that bugs me though. My husband didn't tell me where she was although he knew she had moved and then really seemed angry when I said I was going to see her. It felt as if he hated me doing so and my son took his part. Why?

I can see my son gets worried he will end up with less attention as she sure does want a lot of it. But why my husband's reaction?

Apparently, the police had told her she couldn't come to the house after I called them when she got violent. I am unsure if I should let her back in to visit or not. Will play it very gently. But she was a lot more open to counselling.Talking about it herself.

I think the information on this site helped me know where I stood and put the right boundaries into place. felt sure of myself.

Dr. Irene, She even acknowledged that sometimes she is angry and carries it against people from long ago.......I don't want to get carried away, but I think there is a turning point here and I think it is just over a week since I put my foot down.

Big control battles otherwise here. Trying not to engage. I thought I might make a graph to plot my progress just to see if I am geting better at this. I found it really helpfu to use one when I was depressed as I could see how much better I was getting overall.

Thanks fot the compliments Lynn and Asha. Will reread the posts in the morning as I am so tired now.

love Jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000

S1

I'm having a bad day. At least it's almost over.

I thought I solved my workplace-stress problem by volunteering to move myself to another desk (away from the office bigots), but the boss decided to move two other people there, including the new person that I actually get along with. Grr. I would actually like my job if I could have stayed at that other desk, but hearing them go on and getting my head snapped off wears me down.

My mental image of myself was curled up in the fetal position under the desk bawling her eyes out for much of the day. I somehow hid that behind a pseudo-professional facade.

Mom called, which wasn't so bad ... but again she wanted to thank me for being such a good kid (I guess her co-worker's kids are driving her nuts). And again, the "you'd be such a good math teacher..." stuff. Hey, she's retiring from the civil service job she hates in four years, SHE can go be a math teacher if she wants it that bad. I told her that too, only slightly more politely. :)

My ex has been leaving lots of messages for me, and we talked a bit last night. Actually, the reason my day got off on the wrong foot is that I had a truly horrible hideous nightmare. In the dream, he was physically attacking and abusing me. It was frighteningly real. Rarely have I been so glad to wake up. Which I did, at 5 AM, screaming. Scared my poor little kitties, too. But the dream stuck with me, so I couldn't help feeling icky when I heard his voice on the machine tonight.

Last Friday night I was hanging out with him, the new guy, AND Cheech (talk about your awkward situations). It's strange, the four of us all used to be close, and actually out of the four of us my ex and I have known each other the least amount of time. There was a gaming night at the college three of the four of us are going to, and so we all went, and somehow it ended up being the four of us. Like I said very awkward. Lots of "what do you want to do?" "I dunno, what do YOU want to do?" that went around in circles for two hours, because two of us emphatically did NOT want to sit around getting wasted and watching movies. So we sat around sober and talked about nothing particularly memorable, and you could have cut the tension I was feeling with a chainsaw.

I haven't seen my ex since then, and haven't talked to him much over the phone or net, and right now I really don't want to but I feel guilty. What is this? We broke up! HE made his bed, he chose Mary Jane over me (whether or not he'll admit it, that is EXACTLY what he did), why should I feel guilty that I don't particularly want to give him another chance right now? Especially when I have the chance to enjoy the company of someone whose idea of a good time doesn't include sitting around and getting wasted.

Why do I still feel sometimes like he's my responsibility? This is silly. I gave him more than enough chances, I actually came to this site because I felt I was being abusive and wanted to fix it, I started really trying to let things go ... and when I found something I *couldn't* let go, I did what I know is the right thing by getting out. Forget my inner child, I need to get RID of my inner Stepford Wife, because she's screaming at me again.

It's not even that I want to be with generic someone, I could easily have that. I feel guilty for choosing to break a commitment. Never mind that his actions this summer showed he did not truly respect me or our commitment. I still feel like I failed sometimes, like the least I could have done was continued to honor my side of the bargain. Like I had no right to leave because I wasn't actually being physically assaulted or cheated on with a real live other woman. Maybe that's what the dream was about. *sigh* It's not even that I miss him or miss being with someone, though that comes into it a little bit. It's mostly that I regret my inability to live up to the promises I made. I know, I know, it takes two and I did the right thing....and I'm young and have plenty of time to find someone better for me who won't hurt me so much...but I feel so guilty. I promised to spend my life with him, and now that he wants me to come back I don't want to go. And I feel like I *should* want to. I want to want to. My grandmother endured far worse from my grandfather and stayed with him for 50something years, to his death. Am I somehow less able to honor my commitments? Then I remember my mother saying she used to pray her parents would divorce. Sometimes leaving does take as much integrity and courage as staying. But I feel forsworn, an oathbreaker, and I don't like it.

Sorry for the downer. I am just not dealing well at all today. No energy for intelligent commentary on anyone else either, which is too bad; there's plenty of good stuff happening here.

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Hello Cat Box,

Lynn here with the strangest post. I've been debating for hours on whether or not to put this here or keep this in, but it might be worth sharing. Let's call it the warm body syndrome.

I really Don't think I've ever given Dan reason to be jealous. If I have he hasn't said, so for the sake of argument, I don't chase around. Friendly, maybe even flirty, but NEVER!

Ok, so I'm still miffed at Dan. He called last night and was (I felt) messin' with me again. I let it go. I didn't feel like talking to him tonight. My widowed neighbor (73) and I went out for a pop and to do a little gambling. That turned out to be an understatement.

A guy I've known since we have lived here came up to visit me. We talked about dogs, his mom, just a bunch of stuff. Always have. Well, he asked where Dan was and I told him. I don't air my dirty linen either so he couldn't know. He gave me a hug (we always used to hug). Then he said, "when are you going to give me a ride in that new car?" I almost shouted, NOT TONIGHT!

I grabbd my friend and we came home and I'm stil flabbergasted at me. I've got dogs and cats to keep the bed warm. Don't know what hit me, but I literally could have tried out the back of the new station wagon. The feelings floored me. Don't know if it was the hug, the conversation or just. Maybe it just felt good to know someone wanted to talk to me. Beats me. I haven't felt like this in a long time.

Moral. Wow, knocked the socks off of me. (just the socks) Grin. I can see where the warm body seems so appealing to you "younger ones." But at my age?? I forgot. Wake up call for me, too, Trubble. I'm just thankful I had the sense to run.

Now that I've posted it reads pretty funny. Me, at my age? I don't think there was a suggestion on his part. Welllll, I'm not quite THAT naive. But! Just a warning to be careful and another warning. Either I've totally disengaged or else Dan's 3 minutes are just about up. The last thing I am looking for is someone else to clean the cat boxes, for goodness sake. Another moral. If I were out looking for a man I wouldn't find one.

The true moral I think. We are all really VULNERABLE right now, aren't we? (Underlined) I heard Astrid and Theressa. Thank goodness he didn't make me a flower Astrid!

Ah well, such is life, and taught me a lesson, too. From now on while I'm in this state, if I feel the need for someone to talk to, I'll just call one of those neighbors and not take them out picking up guys. This would be a complication that I KNOW I'm too old for.

Honstly, embarressingly and truly flabbergasted at my feelings,

Lynn

 

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Dear Astrid,

You are so well off out of it and I think that you shoukd stop bashing yourself and feling responsible. What I can see id you have taken, a lot more quickly than many women, probably due to the good parenting you had, the right road. Take the chance to be happy and free! I love your posts as you can realy see that underneath it all you are so very together in your thinking.

dear Lynn, Just now, I would have chosen the station wagon for myself and blow the age. Don't think age comes into it really. Actually scrap the bit about the station wagon I just have my own issues this morning. But you didn't choose the station wagon. So what does that say about Dan? Is his 3 minutes up? If it was, then might you have chosen the wagon? You are not that old after all.

i might be talking about me rather than you here. But "miffed' in u.k English that is annoyed; but mildly. I don't think you are wanting to give up on Dan, but you seem frustrated by his not changing. I can understand that feeling so well just now. the thing is you kept your integrity and that is the main thing! I hope this is o.k, just my thoughts after reading

Back to you Astrid, something in your last post reminded me of a guy I used to go out with. Same thin g in a different way. This guy just wasn't the right one, but I went out with him for ages and I have such good memories of him. I still feel guilty about the way I treated him and I was only 17 at the time we split. Over the years every so often I get news of him and he still asks after me. I have had to be careful not to get in touch as in a way I am still fond of him; but NOT for any relationship. He is doing well now as far as I know. I think we just get a sort of spiritual tie if we get really fond of someone. But not seeing them is not the sme as not caring. The bottom line for me was I could have continued out of guilt and fondness, but I had to love mysef enough to say what is good for me. I still know if I ever agred to see him I would be being totaly unfair as there is no way whatever this guy, a really lovely person could ever be right for me and I am never ever going to give him any way f hoping that. I just hope he has found someone else. It has been so hard not to get in touch out of concern and I do like to know he is o.k. But that is the one thing I am never ever going to do.

Lynn. Yeah that way we get not to do the washing and keep warm. I love that dogfood story.

As for me. I have had enough of my husband! I have had enough of the morning aggressiveness and of the perpetual rudeness to last a life time. I will stand it no longer as I don't like what it turns me into and I end up deflecting it elsewhere. I just don't have to put up with it or his deliverate attempts t undermine me. I am just past engaging. I just suggested we saw someone tigether about our marriage before we went to family therapy. I got told my suggestions are not good ones.....I said o.k you think my suggestions are not good ones.......I got a sarcastic 'goodye." when he left. I am so sick of his behaviour and do wonder if he will try to disrupt the peace between me and my daughter.

Also. I don't know what is going on with my son but he is getting mad I am seeing my daughter too. He was calling her a bitch this morning. Saying his father had told him he was better than her...not liking his sister at all...Any input on ideas for handling this would be welcome.

I guess he just needs a lot of reassurance about his place in the household. We have basketball tonight so I hope that we can talk on the way.

Must go and do something ], like some housework. Love to all, Jay

 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Hi Jay,

I am quite lucky in the fact that although I live in a city, this is good for bad weather periods. Down in the South of the country gets the floods. Though we don't get as much sunshine as they do. AVERAGE IS sometimes best LOL. Balance!!!!

Okay enough about the floods. As for what its like in the US I don't know, I expect though its sunny. I live in the UK.

Some English people know what ya on about, I DO!! LOL!!! I just think that therapy is more accepted in the US whereas over here its STIFF UPPER LIP. Yeah I know what you mean about others changing but not having the BUZZ words, I think computers and the internet helped here.

JAY a tip on boundary setting, set one where ever you feel YUK about something. Like when your partner raises his voice, you can say I won't listen to you, and if he continues to raise his voice say I will leave the room if you continue to Raise your voice. What would give you more peace is also helpful. YOU can only control you, so for instance your son might have a messy bedroom, Maybe you can't force him to tidy it. Though you can refuse to go into his room. He might not put his dirty clothes in the washing pile, you can't force him but you can just not wash whatever is not in the wash pile, he'll soon catch on. Etc.... Work on what you can do. Another great idea is if you feel tighteness in your stomach or like you need to swallow hard, someone has crossed your boundaries.

If anyone tries to control you, your feelings, your actions, your ideas, your definitions and uses shoulds, musts, never or always, then they are crossing your boundaries.

Jay wrote: I keep thinking what am I prepared to accept and not accept. What do I really want? I think RESPECT is what meand most to me and I just don't feel that whatever I have done it has been respected by the men in my life.

THIS WAS WHY I EVENTUALLY LEFT, RESPECT = CONSIDERATION I didn't feel I was considered, my ex was the only one in the equation, what he could get from a situation, or how he could use something i'd said, it was always about him winning and me losing. Though no one can expect RESPECT unless then RESPECT themselves. This happens when we set boundaries on what we will accept. Anything which makes us feel YUKKY don't accept. But control only you, you leave the room, you do around the house what is important to you. You ask in an honest way without blaming, shaming or yelling for what you want. I refused, then decided what other way you could get your need met. Friends, family, paid for help.

 

I don't want my needs to have more weight; just equal weight

THEY ALREADY DO, WHY? because you are an intricate part of the universe, you are like a piece of the jigsaw, you don't need anyone elses approval for your ideas, when you believe your ideas are important and so are others, we all have different perspectives none of the ideas are wrong totally, the intention behind every behaviour is GOOD, its the parts of us inside that all make up US. So question the part which is at work in the task you don't like, what is its GOOD intention, Eating chocolate could be = self care, doing something for ones self.

JAY WROTE: I want to be listened to. have what I say considered and not to be agreed with all the time but be able to discuss rational pros and cons.

Your ideas or YOur ideas, you can't force anyone else to listen, what you can do is put your ideas in to ACTIONS, Actions SPEAK Louder THAN WORDS!!!! If you want to do something and its important FIND ANOTHER WAY TO DO IT USING ACTIONS. SO if you want to discuss childcare and your husband grunts, PUT INTO PRACTICE YOUR NEW IDEAS, he'll soon take note and need to ask you why you do xxxxx. You see its not a case of being right or wrong, EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN RIGHT AND WRONG, SO you live your right through ACTIONS and your husband will take you more seriously. FIND whatever ways you can to do what you want and in time he'll want to join in I am sure.

[I am wise after the event because before I feared doing what I told you just now, I didn't know all this then!!! when I left]

JAY WROTE:

I want a relationship where I am not continually worn out by petty arguments about things no sane person would feel the need to argue. Where there is the abiluty on both sides to compromise.

SO WHY DO YOU ARGUE? COUNTERATTACKING DOESN'T HELP, COMPLAINING DOESN'T HELP, FINDING ANOTHER SOLUTION HELPS, DECIDE WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO YOU, AND DO IT FOR YOUR BENEFIT NO ONE ELSES, LEAVE WHAT YOU DON'T THINK IS IMPORTANT. In time the seesaw will level out, when you Focus on SOLUTIONS you can control and not ON complaining.

JAY WROTE:

I wnat to feel that I parent together with someone not that i am treated as the less important one.

THEN MAKE SURE THAT YOU USE YOUR PARENTING STYLE, AND DON'T BACK DOWN, SAY I HAVE MY WAY YOU HAVE YOURS, MY WAY WORKS FOR ME AND THAT WHAT MATTERS, I AM NOT ASKING FOR YOUR APPROVAL. WHEN YOU FEEL MORE IMPORTANT BECAUSE YOU DO THINGS THE WAY YOU THINK IS RIGHT WITHOUT WORRYING WHAT THE OTHER PARENT SAYS YOU'VE CRACKED IT, YOU DON'T NEED THEIR APPROVAL SO DON'T FEEL YOU NEED TO SEEK, IT JUST DO WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT. Then refuse to argue with the other parent. If they yell, set a boundary - leave the room, refuse to listen to yelling or name calling. Or ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR. Once you partner sees that he can't bully you, he will get the message. THIS IS HOW YOU GET EQUAL!!!

[Again I gained this after leaving but now I practice it!!!]

JAY WROTE:

I want my boundaries respected. But I don't really. yet have a clear definition of my boundaries.

SEE ABOVE, ANYTHING WHICH FEELS YUK NEEDS A BOUNDARY SETTING!!!

JAY WROTE:

I want no more put downs and not to feel controlled.

THEN DON'T ACCEPT THEM, TELL YOURSELF THERE HIS OPINIONS AND ARE ABOUT HIM AND NOT YOU. HOW WE FEEL ABOUT OURSELVES WE TREAT OTHERS, [HE IS TRYING TO REFLECT HIS HURT ABOUT HIMSELF ON TO YOU] If your husband calls you a nasty name or criticises you say that is your opinion. OR agree with the true part of the criticism. EG That stove is dirty, REPLY: YES that is a stove.

For now though best to just say I am not going to listen to your putdown, later when you gain confidence try agreeing with the true part of the criticism. [Feel the fear but realise that pushing through this fear and standing up for yourself will make you grow, TELL YOURSELF I CAN STAND IT.] Which you can, you don't have to allow anyone to treat you bad, if they act violently you can leave the room, and if they try to hurt you, you can call the POLICE. No can hurt you unless you allow them to. SO DON'T allow them to.

SOmeone can only control you if you let them, so set boundaries and control your own behaviour, THEIR FEELINGS about your behaviour is not your PROBLEM Or under your control.

JAY WROTE:

I want to be able to share life and have interesting and rational conversations about interesting things with a life partner.

THIS is intimacy, I am affraid that in ABUSIVE relationships this is hard because it seems whenever you share any weaknesses, with them, they use them against you. SO I know what you mean.

JAY WROTE: I don't want any more than the validity of my emotions acknowledged.

THE ABUSER CAN'T DO THIS, ONLY YOU CAN DO THIS FOR YOURSELF, BY ALLOWING YOURSELF TO GO WAY ALONE AND CRY, TO GO TO COOL DOWN WHEN ANGRY. AND TO DECIDE WHAT IS IN YOUR CONTROL SO YOU CAN ACT.

 

Why is it love is such a low priority....? Maybe these things are the components of love?

YES THEY ARE ABOUT LOVE!!! Love means being VULNERABLE and for ABUSERS they can't allow this, they don't want anyone chipping away at their defenses, their defenses are their behaviours that push you away. YOU have to love yourself first BEFORE you can love anyone else, this means knowing what resources you have and then placing value on them. YOU HAVE CREATIVITY - ideas DO you value it????? Everything you do that seems automatic you DO and do you see this as valuable???

JAY you are valuable, without you the universe would have a piece of its JIGSAW missing, so realise you don't need others to tell you how valuable you are, YOU JUST NEED TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE WORTHWHILE COS YOUR HERE AND YOU WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN CHOSEN AS ONE OF THE JIGSAW PIECES IF GOD DIDN'T WANT YOU TO.

ANOTHER TIP: See mistakes as WHAT TO DO NEXT TIME, what could you change be specific. OPPORTUNITIES TO GROW!!!!

JAY WROTE:

Actually, awe, mystery and wonder would be nice.

Do you know who Jay is??? Do you know what resources she has??? [Patience, honesty, ability to make people laugh - anything which contributes to the WORLD is a resource, feeding yourself is a resource] Do you value the resources JAY has? The way to look at it is if JAY couldn't tie her shoelaces, or feed herself - or if she hadn't learnt all this things since birth how would she survive??? JAY IS UNIQUE, VALUABLE AND NEEDED BY THE UNIVERSE, YOU HAVE ALL THE MYSTERY AND EXCITEMENT INSIDE YOU, YOU CAN BE ANYTHING YOU CHOSE TO BE. SO START WONDERING ABOUT jay, SELF DISCOVER JAY!!!!!!

and spontenaiety.

IS JAY SPONTANEOUS??? THEY START CHOSING WHAT JAY WANTS IN HER LIFE AND HOW SHE HERSELF CAN MAKE STEPS TO GET THEIR. Do you ever pack a bag and go off and holiday alone and spend time looking at the wonderful world? DO you decide to have a bubble bath and SING your heart out. Sit and eat a whole tub of strawberries and cream. Invite all your family around for a get to getter, do whatever you feel will make you feel good.

You create spontenaiety in your life, no one else can be as spontenaious as you can, for yourself. I know we all imagine a guy who will come and be exciting and swisk us off our feet. THough look at it from this perspective:

There was Sally wishing her husband would turn spontaneous, he did and guess what she realised that from another perspective he was IRRESPONSIBLE, Joe wanted Jessy to become dependable, but from another perspective he saw her as limiting and boring. YOU SEE ITS HOW YOU LOOK AT SOMETHING THAT MAKES IT WHAT IT IS.

Some one who is criticial could also be called Tidy and orderly.

We enable by toleration, so STOP tolerating what you don't need in your life and CREATE what you do NEED!!!!

 

JAY WROTE: And a normal socialising interaction withthe rest of the world.

GET up and get out and arrange a get together, or outing with all you close family and friends, or join a club, go on socialise, don't wait for your spouse, he'll soon get the message that its fun. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.

Trust - mutual

DO YOU TRUST YOURSELF TO KNOW THAT WHATEVER HAPPENS YOU CAN STAND IT AND HANDLE IT???? I understand where your coming from but your just not gonna get it with an ABUSER, your asking for intimacy and as I've said he is most affraid of being vulnerable and unless he wants to be vulnerable its a no GO!!!!!

I just can't find any of these things in the relationship I am in.

WELL WE ARE ALL IN CHARGE OF CREATING THE LIFE WE WANT, SO GET OUT AND CREATE, IT. DON'T SETTLE FOR LESS THAN YOU THINK YOU DESERVE. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, IF YOUR MAKE PLANS. BE SPECIFIC ABOUT HOW YOU'LL GET WHAT YOU WANT. THIS CAN'T INVOLVE YOU CONTROLLING OTHERS, COS YOU JUST CAN'T DO THAT, SO WHAT CAN JAY DO, TO IMPROVE HER LIFE!!!!

I wish I could as I don't want a different man.

WELL YOU have some choices to make, WILL HE GO TO THERAPY??? Maybe you say NO, BUT does he know you staying depends on it????? I am not talking about THREATS, I am talking about being HONEST and upfront about what you want. AND how you want to get it.

But I just can't see it happening. All I feel is totally blamed for all that is wrong.

STOP!!!! RIGHT THERE!!!! YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WHOLE RELATIONSHIP SO DROP THE BLAME, DECIDE WHAT YOU CAN CHANGE AND CHANGE IT. ASK HONESTLY FOR WHAT YOU WANT FROM YOUR HUSBAND. THEN AND ONLY THEN CAN YOU DECIDE IF HE WILL GIVE YOU WANT YOU WANT. THOUGH HE NEEDS HELP IN THERAPY, COS GETTING VULNERABLE IS HARD WORK!!

Dr Irene, I don't have to accept the blame. That I am sure of. SO WHY ARE YOU ACCEPTING IT???? LOOK AT YOUR ROLE, DO YOU APOLOGISE EVEN WHEN ITS NOT YOUR FAULT? DO YOU EXPLAIN AT LENGTH WHY YOU DO XXXX?? DO YOU DENY YOUR ROLE??? DO YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND TO SUIT OTHERS EVEN IF YOU FEEL YOU DON'T GET WHAT YOU WANT???

(this is how you enable. you have your own opinions, values(what is important to you), so don't change them cos someone else demands something. STAND UP FOR YOURSELF AND SAY NO, I won't give up ME!!!

I will meet you half way, on general things like housework, BUT NEVER ON MY VALUES, Honesty, RESPECT etc.... THEREFORE, IF YOUR DISRESPECTFUL TO ME I'LL LEAVE THE ROOM. IF YOUR DISHONEST THEN I WON'T LISTEN TO YOU.

But it sure hangs heavy trying to live with it just now.

THAT IS BECAUSE YOU WON'T FACE THE FEARS AND START MAKING CHANGES, START WRITING DOWN STEPS. E.G 1) Whenever anyone starts to yell at me I'll tell them I am gonna leave the room. 2) If anyone tries to change my mind, I will say no i disagree. I have my own opinion.

Like yesterday I accepted I acted like a kid but my partner didn't.

DON'T EXPECT OTHERS TO ACCEPT, JUST ADMIT YOUR ROLE TO YOURSELF AND SEE WHAT YOU COULD CHANGE. DO YOU ARGUE BACK, DO YOU APOLOGISE??? STOP, WHEN YOU FEEL MAD GO AND SPEND SOME TIME ALONE. DECIDE WHAT YOU COULD DO ABOUT XXXXX, OR DECIDE WHAT YOU WILL SAY HONESTLY E.G I WANT XXXX, TO HAPPEN. DON'T BLAME, JUDGE OR ISSUE SHAME, JUST SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO HAPPEN. AND IF HE STARTS GOING ON SAY, AND THIS IS WHAT I'LL DO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HELP XXXXX. (THEN DECIDE YOUR OPTIONS WITHOUT HIM)

JAY WROTE: He doesn't think his actions are wrong.

WHY SHOULD HE WHEN YOU RESCUE HIM, BY APOLOGISING AND TAKE THE BLAME, INSTEAD OF ACCEPTING YOUR CONTRIBUTION AND LEAVING IT AT THAT. YOU CAN THEN DECIDE HOW TO AVOID REPEATING THE POOR BEHAVIOURS. USING STEPS,

He feels justified.

YOU HELP HIM TO!!!

 

What is it that makes someone feel so threatened that they are afraid to accept responsibility? SHAME, SHAME OF NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH. HE NEEDS TO COVER UP THIS SHAME, SO HE'LL DO WHATEVER HE HAS TO AVOID FEELING THAT SHAME. It began in childhood when he was ridiculed for making mistakes.

 

Could they be afraid I would then control them? NO more that they'd lose control of themselves. Being in control of everything even if it means ABUSING another and hurting their feelings is a small price for an ABUSER compared to the pain they'd feel if they allowed themselves to feel the SHAME.

I never did get that controlling someone else right. Thank goodness. As a kid I always managed t be the one who was too afraid to lead. SHAME AT WORK AGAIN, SOMEONE PROBABLY TOLD YOU, YOUR NOT SO GREAT AT XXXXX. SO YOU TOOK ON THIS LABEL.

Then I grew up and gained a collaborative style of teaching. Even there when I have moved into taking the position of control it goes stupidly wrong.

THIS IS COS YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL YOURSELF. YOU CAN SET LIMITS AND GIVE CHOICES BUT YOU CAN'T FORCE. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM IN SCHOOLS, THE KID WON'T LISTEN AND THE TEACHER CAN'T FORCE HIM TO, SO SHE YELLS AND PUNISHES HIM MAKING HIM FEEL EVEN WORSE. YOU SEE THE KID WANTS TO FEEL IN CONTROL, SO HE TRIES TO CONTROL ANYTHING IN HIS LIFE, EVEN THE THINGS THAT ARE HELPFUL. THE KID MAY NOT FEEL HE IS CLEVER SO HE'LL ACT UP. THE TEACHER PUNISHES HIM AND PUSHES HIS BUTTON THAT SAYS FAILURE. ITS A VICIOUS CIRCLE, WHEREAS IF SHE COULD PROVE HIM WRONG THAT HE'S NOT A FAILURE, MAYBE BY USING EXAMPLES THAT HE ISN'T A FAILURE THEN THE RESULT WOULD BE THE REVERSE.

 

I once had to give a verbal warning in a teaching situation to a student who certainly deserved it. She had me wrapped round her little finger in seconds. I was as usual too empathic and felt too sorry for her.

YOU BOUGHT INTO GUILT. get hold of Emotional Blackmail book.

When we are made to feel fearful, obligated or guilty, FOG we become confussed. What we need to do is first OBSERVE, do nothing, tell the person, I WILL GET BACK TO YOU, I NEED SOME TIME TO THINK ABOUT THIS. Second, go away and pretend you have just gotten in a lift - relax then look at what is happening. [How'd you tell a friend what is happening and what is happening from each side, NOW if you grant the request will you be doing it cos you feel sorry for xxxxx? cos you think you owe someone??? (GUILT) (Obligation), Or cos you fear disapproval??? FEAR. If your answer is you feel FEAR, OBLIGATION or GUILT, don't say YES. YOU MUST See some benefit in doing this for yourself. Otherwise you'll resent the other person and DESTROY YOUR RELATIONSHIP!!!!

I make so many excuses for people.

STOP!!! You are only responsible for you!!!!

 

I am so sure I must be wrong.

WHY? no one is right all of the time, we all have our own opinions which are valid!!!

I wonder how you get it right.

BY TAKING RISKS AND THEN HANDLING WHAT HAPPENS. ALL SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES, ITS JUST THAT THEY SEE THE MISTAKES AS OPPORTUNITIES TO GROW AND NOT FAILURES. SUCCESS IS FAILURE TURNED INSIDE OUT. SEE THE LESSON. WHAT COULD I CHANGE NEXT TIME TO IMPROVE.

IMPROVE MENT IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS NOT PERFECTION.

Some days I even get manipulated into thinking I am wrong when I am right. THAT IS WHY BUYING TIME LIKE I SUGGESTED ABOVE WORKS!!! DON'T ALLOW OTHERS TO TAKE THIS THINGKING TIME AWAY FROM YOU, JUST KEEP REPEATING I WILL GET BACK TO YOU WHEN I HAVE THOUGHT ENOUGH ABOUT IT. DON'T ALLOW THEM TO STOP YOU HAVING THIS TIME. LEAVE THE HOUSE IF YOU HAVE TO.

I have to get through this to a stronger and wiser position.

YOU ALREADY ARE, YOU SEE YOUR GROWING AWARENESS SO YOU ARE ALREADY GETTING WISER. NEXT STEP ACTION, WHAT CAN YOU CHANGE. AS I'VE SAID ABOVE.

When I am right and told I am wrong, then I get a sort of whoosh of fear.

THE MESSAGE THIS FEAR IS TELLING YOU IS, YOU ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME, I AM YOUR INTEGRITY = YOUR INNER VALUES AND BELIEFS OF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG. PLEASE LISTEN TO ME, I HAVE YOUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART.

I need to find the strength and subsatance and courage of my own convictions. I am always so frightened I might be wrong.

SO RISK BEING WRONG, YOU CAN ALWAYS LEARN FROM WHATEVER YOU DO. YOU GROW FROM TAKING RISKS, NO ONE GETS EVERYTHING RIGHT ALL THE TIME, EVEN THE MOST SUCCESSFUL MAKE MISTAKES IN THEIR SUCCESSES.

 

Why am I afraid to be wrong?

COS OF SHAME, YOU FEEL THAT YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THOUGH IF YOU REALISE YOUR MISTAKES ARE SIGNPOSTS TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO DIFFERENTLY NEXT TIME AND SEE HOW MUCH YOU'VE LEARNT FROM THIS EXPERIENCE THEN IT WAS WORTH IT.

THERE ARE NO REAL MISTAKES, JUST PATHS OF LEARNING. EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IS MEANT TO , AT JUST THE RIGHT TIME.

I don't even think this came in as a part of my upbringing.

THE WHOLE OF YOU CAME AS PART OF YOUR INTERACTIONS IN YOUR WHOLE LIFE, INCLUDING YOUR UPBRINGING.

I think that feeling was there as far back as I remember. Somme genetic disposition. I can remember as a young kid being puzzled how other kids my age couldn't do things like the shape sorter. Those things seemed obvious; but the emotional things; I have memories of being frightened to take the biscuit in Nursery just in case I wasn't meant to have one.

YOU JUST DIDN'T FEEL GOOD ENOUGH, THOUGH BOY YOUR GOOD ENOUGH, OTHERWISE YOU'D NOT HAVE BEEN BORN.

GRIEVE YOUR SADNESS ABOUT NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH TO TAKE THE BISCUIT AT THE NURSERY, AND THEN SEE THAT YOU ARE, JUST COS YOUR YOU.

 

No awareness all the other kids did. This is a stupid thought, BUT I WISH TO HELL I HAD GRABBRD THE WHOLE PLATE just to learn it was safe to be wrong.

YEAH, SO START TAKING WHAT YOU DESERVE BY GIVING IT TO YOURSELF. THE KIDS DIDN'T ALL HAVE AWARENESS ITS JUST THAT THEY WEREN'T AWARE OF THEMSELVES AS CONSCIOUSLY AS YOU. MAYBE SOMEONE HELPED YOU THINK YOU WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH WITHOUT REALISING IT.

And I wish I had told my reception class teacher I could read JUST TO KNOW I COULD BE RIGHT. This post is getting stupid so I think it is time to end this train of thought.

STUPID, NONSENSE THIS IS PART OF YOU, ACCEPT IT. YOU ARE RIGHT AS YOU WERE MEANT TO BE AT THAT MOMENT. EVERY INTENTION IS GOOD, ITS THE BEHAVIOUR WHICH NEEDS CHANGING. SO as I said your PARTS of you all have good intentions, to get something good for you, EVEN OUR DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOURS. Like drinking, the intention is to numb the pain, though the behaviour isn't good. We need to find another behaviour to help us to achieve our intention. Like perhaps doing something else for a time to take our mind off the pain.

Time to look at a self esteem questionnaire? Time to stop the "YOU are the odd one out and the difficult one thinking. I think I had better borrow Therresa's book and get cracking!

Maybe this mood is a result of living in a basin and the drip drip drip of the rain.

In the dulliest moments the greatest discoveries are made. GROWTH COMES OUT OF CRISIS, Scientists will tell you this. The 2nd World war the most advanced discoveries were made.

Trubble, stay in the US. It is toooo wet. Unless you fancy a long swim. Give it another day and the goldfish pond will flood. That will be a treat for the local cats.

The new doc was nice. So nice I forgave her being an hour behind schedule. She wasn't keen on my stopping the medication for another fortnight though. Something to do with the way it works. Rats.

If I was an hour behind my schedule I would be very cross with myself.

Say to your doc, I am angry you were late. Even though understand you had other priorities, I still feel angry. THEN SAY, I would like an apology when your late. [This is about getting respect for yourself, your doc will aplaud you.] Having feelings is GOOD, sharing them with SAFE PEOPLE is good. (I mean its not always safe to share them with your abuser, but your therapist it is. THen setting a boundary of an apology, is saying I AM IMPORTANT AND SO PLEASE SEE ME AS A PRIORITY. This isn't saying your doc didn't have a good reason for being late but it is showing you KNOW you are also important.

How come i judge myself so harshly? COS YOU WERE TAUGHT THAT TO BE LOVEABLE YOU NEED APPROVAL. WELL JAY HONEY, YOU ONLY NEED TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO THIS WORLD, JUST AS EVERYONE ELSE IS.

I just thought how hard it must be for her to be so far behind. Yet I was the one who was nearly getting a parket ticket and I probably wouldn't have felt it was her fault.

GLAD YOU RECOGNISE THIS!!!! SO NEXT TIME SPEAK UP. PEOPLE TREAT YOU AS YOU ALLOW THEM TO TREAT YOU!!!!

- Theressa, You are so wise.

I am at the stage I am meant to be at, SO ARE YOU!!!! I read a whole lot and listen a whole lot to all of you. I learnt to see my mistakes as learning opportunities. 3 months ago I was a basket case, that is until I got up and started to ACT. We are all a mixture of GOOD AND BAD, we all MAKE mistakes and we're meant, LIFE'S PURPOSE IS GROWTH, so lets start living and GROWING!!!!

All my life I have cleared up after other people's tantrums.

ME TO!!!! NOT ANY MORE THOUGH NOW I KNOW WHAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY AND WHAT ISN'T!!! MY FEELINGS, MY BEHAVIOURS, MY IDEAS, OPINIONS, THOUGHTS ARE MY RESPONSIBILITY, OTHERS BEHAVIOUR, FEELINGS AND IDEAS AND OPINIONS, THOUGHTS ARE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR STUFF.

 

My husband always cleared up after my daughter's even if she refused. I got so mad over this. I tried to put my foot down.....

 

YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DAUGHTER'S MESS AND YOUR HUSBANDS INTERFERING, STOP!!! ITS NOT YOUR FIGHT. WHEN YOU STOP TRYING TO FIX IT, THEY'LL DO IT THEMSELVES!!!

I am going to stop waffling and start being positive.

YOU ARE BEING POSITIVE, YOUR TAKING STEPS TO PUT THINGS RIGHT!!!! YOUR VALIDATING YOURSELF, THIS IS POSITIVE. YOUR DOING A GRAND JOB. PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK. YOUR VALUABLE GIRL, YOU ARE!!!!

Love to you JAY.

PS I am so glad I can give back all this to YOU cos someone GAVE It all to ME. And when you GIVE you sure get back when you need it MOST!!!!! But it may never be from the same source or PERSON GOD gives to us when we need it MOST!!!!! In the ways we need it MOST!!!!!

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa, I think. I don't think you signed! Thank you. You have turned into another Dr Irene methinks! It must have taken you ages to write all you did and I feel so cared for. I will write back at length later as I have to go into town just now. Just couldn't leave your post unacknowledged. love, Jay.

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Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

I haven't got into town yet - got distracted by the Yak boards. Same feeling again and as Theressa.

Dr Irene where was it you talked about the bashing going on there? I do think there is and just posted to that effect. I feel a bit woried sometimes that peer support is becoming unhelpful for some of the posters. If you tell me I got this wrong I can handle it. I don't want to get into criticising the board users but just feel a bit wary about it at present.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Good Morning Cat Box,

Lynn here with a rosy glow. Think I may have needed the ego boost, because after I posted I found out something that I would rather have not. Don't want to post about it, I want to think about it and maybe it's good that things happened (or didn't, in this case) last night. I think I would have been tempted to call Dan last night and confront.

Silly, but I'm thinking sins of omission are still sins and I see Dan thinking something is not a sin unless he gets caught. Sin is too strong a word here, but I have big yuks toward Dan today.

I hear ya Jay. Laughter. The ego boost was almost more than I could handle at this stage, but my reaction was hilarious. I gave it all away that he was starting to look pretty good to me. Yikes!

Loads of love to all of you. I can't imaging I'll be quiet, but I have some thinking to do so I may do just that.

Love,

Lynn

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Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Hi All,

I need some encouragement, someone to listen etc....

Here goes....

Tonight a guy from work is having a 50th Birthday party. I have been invited. I wasn't gonna go since its a long way to drive in the night. However, A work friend said he'd give us a lift. My sister is poorly Mags and my other sister Cat is off out, my mum is working so NO CHILDMINDER, The guy said I can bring Missy with me.

Anyway my ex usually comes tonight to see Missy, I rang him and said there is a party tonight and I am going. I said would you mind Missy he said "No, its short notice".

Anyway I came off the phone with mixed feelings, firstly I felt sad that I'd be going to the party alone and that he didn't ask to come with me, then I felt angry that he wouldn't mind MISSY and then I felt disappointed that he didn't ask me why I didn't ask him to come. Then I felt hurt that he won't help mind his child. THen I cried a few tears and then I got on with my work.

I just phoned him to tell him I am taking Missy with me to the party since no one is available to childmind and he said "GO AHEAD YOUR RESPONSIBLE FOR HER IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO HER!!! WITH A LOAD OF DRUNKS AT THE PARTY!!! GO ON GO AHEAD, ITS NOT MY PROBLEM ITS YOURS, YOU GO AHEAD TAKE HER WITH YOU, ITS UP TO YOU, THOUGH REMEMBER ALL THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR HER RESIDES WITH YOU ALSO. GOOD BYE"

I feel so angry, I mean why is it that I should be punished for wanting to go out. I deserve to go out. I mind MISSY all week, her father comes one hour three times a week, whilst I am still minding her, and then he has her one afternoon a week. WHY is it that he GETS all the privledges and I don't. I am livid with his selfishness.

Oh well that's my vent, if anyone reads this soon please reply I need some moral support.

Thanks Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa,

Lynn here, You're right. It's not right an it's not fair. I'm sorry. For the future could you find a friend maybe who would share baby sitting (child minding with you)? Maybe you offer to watch her child and she watches yours at other times so you can go out.

I agree. We need to have some fn. We need to laugh and we need to see other people.

He sound like he's very controlling. I think ou might have to find a way to break this.

Good Luck and Love. I'm thinking about you.

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Hi ALL,

YEAH ISN'T DR IRENE GREAT SHE TAUGHT ME ALL THIS, SHE'S ONE SMART LADY. SURE WISH SHE'D ASK GOD TO SEND ME A MAGIC WAND TO SORT OUT MY EX THOUGH LOL!!!!

No I honestly am still putting all this in to practice myself and it really helped me to share this JAY you opened up questions I also needed to answer.

I JUST used the method of FOG myself, I noticed this: Like I said in my last post my sister can't child mind for me tonight. So I phoned my ex and told him. "I'm taking Missy with me, cos Cath's going out and their no one else to mind her, they'll be other kids there." [I'd never have said this in a million years before, MAYBE I am GROWING]

HE went on: "Go ahead your responsible for her [GUILT!!!!!] If anything happens to her!!!!! [GUILT] With a load of drunks at the party!!! [GUILT] Go on, go ahead, [GUILT]. Its not my problem [OBLIGATION] its YOURS [OBLIGATION] You go ahead take her with you, its up to you [GUILT] though remember all the RESPONSIBILITY RESIDES WITH YOU ALSO. [AND SO DOES THE GUILT IT SEEMS!!!! NO MENTION OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES AS HER OTHER PARENT OH BOY!!!! I AM EXPECTING YOU TO BLOW BUT NO YOU WON'T COS THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I MIGHT TELL YOU THAT YOUR ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR HER]

Good bye {YOUR PROBLEM] YES and so I'll solve it.

I am taking MISSY with me to the party. He doesn't think I will, I am cos I see no harm in taking her. There are other kiddies and its more of a family affair and not a night club. I went up and looked at this objectively in my lift. LOL and saw the two sides clearly. He wants to stop me going out with GUILT well sorry PAL its not gonna work this time. I've nothing to feel GUILTY about. I AM GETTING THE MESSAGE YIPPPEEEEE!!!!!

I am gonna go now to pick up my daughter and go to the PARTY. Its bonfire night on Sunday, do you have it there any of you in the US? Have a good one if you do!!! If you don't have a lovely weekend anyway.

Hope to see your post JAY!!!

Sorry your hurting LYNN!!!! Hope you and DAN sort out the problem.

Love to you all my friends and TRUBBLE are you behaving to get your Salmon!!!! or are you still on can TUNA!!!!

DR Irene thanks a million for being you!!!!

THeressa

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Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Dear Jay,

I got it! On the laundry at least. Dan says he's just trying to help me. He washes the clothes, he dries the clothes and he either piles them on the bed or the chair in the TV room To help me do the laundry he should fold and put away or hang up. His are in the pile now and theyare all wrinkled. I think I'll re wash, dry and fold or hang up like I usually do.

Is constructive anger anger at myself?

Thinking aloud, too, and thinking of all, Lynn

 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Dear Lynn,

AJ here, I think you're very brave to tell this story and yes we are very vunrable. I've had a similar experience when C. just left.. I felt, ah, wouldn't that be nice for a change, to be with someone who likes me, and wants to be nice to me, no fighting, no worrying. Then I realized, like you did, that it would only make things more complicated and I ran. I knew, I had to stay away, that even going out for a coffee would have been a definite NO.

I think when we are so upset and feel unloved, a gentle word, a hug can make us yearn for someone who just wants to be there for us. It happened to me, I ran as I didn't want any more complications. It happened to C., cause he felt unloved and very out of sorts. He did not run and he says he very much regretted that he let it happen, cause it was a very painfull experience to all people involved.

I know too about the ego boost (later post) and I think that's oke, you can use it, and you deserve it. But don't let yourself be drawn into something you will regret. I think you did the only right thing for your Self. Good for you. Hope your thinking will help you out. I think, maybe you finally started to work on your own problem instead of Dan's. Yippeee, or something like that :-) :-). Love you lots for this!!!

And if you doubt wether you still could love Dan, read your old posts....... I just know you do. It seems we all have to learn that feeling yukkie towards someone does not necesarily mean we don't love them. I think not feeling yukkie, is much more dangerous.

Dear Theresa, I hope you have a nice party, and I am quite sure you will be able to look after Missy yourself. You showed earlier that you are well capable of it. Hev a noce time! And Theresa, could you please not SHOUT SO MUCH. I have a hard time finding out what you think is really important if you shout all the words :-) (no offense) I am very happy for you you feel so strong and yes, sure, you are progressing and isn't that great. Good reason for a party too, isn't it. And don't worry about Ex not asking to come. You wouldn't have wanted him to come anyway, I think. And what does LOL mean. Everybody seems to use it, but I really don't have the faintest idea as to it's meaning.

Astrid, where did this new guy pop up from???? When did you introduce him to us???? Heh, don't get youself messed up with guilt, you've been clear to your ex you don't want him back, no false play there. You're entitled to some fun, and you just take your own integrety as to how far you want to take this at this time.

 

Dear Jay, so glad to hear you had such a good talk with your daughter. It just might be the strat a something good. Both of you growing. And then, your H. will have to choose, won't he, join in, or be left out!!

Love to all of you and happy thoughts and dreams. And as for the Cathouse, maybe we could have a few at different places. Sun all the time gets boring too. Doghouses welcome at all the sites too.

AJ

 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Lynn

Your post reminded me of an Oprah show I saw with Gary Zukav. He said that when he first started doing the Oprah shows he became attracted to a female colleague. He told his wife and she asked "what are you afraid of?"

He was terrified of "Oprah" and was going to mess it all up.

So Lynn, what are you afraid of? Honest, I think that's what it's about. You said yourself that the gambling was to get Dan's attention. I think this is pretty much the same thing.

Astrid - I remember the exact feeling with my ex. The feeling of failure, and having 'abandoned' him, the wanting to want to go back. This didn't make it any better though. In my opinion now, these aren't good enough reasons to hang onto a relationship.

Theressa

I don't think you are 'being punished' - I think your H is just doing what he does. Why take it personally? Just go and have a good time. I think your mistake was in calling him back to tell him of your plans to take Missy. Why bother? Just go. And have FUN!!! You don't need and won't get his approval, why make your happiness depend on it?

Hi Jay and others. I haven't had time to read all the posts.

Must run.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Hello everyone. Thanks AJ and Asha. Still funny today and I didn't post what Dan did. One too long the other well, disappointed in him. Big Time. My post about the laundry and now this. No,I would haven't considered. My feelings shocked me. That might be the key words. I'm getting feelings again. I'm getting somewhat organized. I Have a plan for the laundry. Actually, in this small town it's probably already rumored that I did. Even though I was in view of the general public at all times. Oh well, I'm glad I didn't . It just felt so nice to hav someone talk to me, listen to me and the hug. I was like that catnip jelly. I can see why it would be so easy to take the brief bit of comfort and that's why I decided to post it. It would certainly change the relationship!

Asha, this wouldn't be to get his attention. I'm not totally nuts. I would't have told him. I used to get and take great pleasure in telling him I spent $$$. This would have put END to it, just because. Anyhow It's a little premature. I can't handle the one I've got, I certainly don't need two. So either I was weak and vulnerable or just feeling alive and human. Take your pick. Maybe mentally I needed to fall out of love with Dan. Just a back off and regroup phrase or phase.

Astrid. I was so into my stuff I forgot about your dream. Sounds like Dan's PTSD. Dreams say so much to us, don't they?

Hi Jay, Theressa, B, Becky, Steve, and most of all Trubble and the Doc. My wake up call? It's about time. Thanks guys, now I have to do laundry and ponder some other stuff. Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Lynn again with a question. Does anyone else deal with "theatrics." I know they are to divert my attention. What is my roll here? Dan did something quite theatrical a few months ago. Now I've found out why. Confrotation is out of the question. I know where that leads. Do I ignore it? Can't find any reference in the Patricia Evans books. I'm not angry. He deceived me and lied to me. I'm not amused. Thanks, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Lynn

I should have rephrased that as a question - "was it something to get his attention"? Didn't mean to sound like a know it all. I know it's not a conscious thing, and it sounds like I was way off in my assumption.

I think what I meant was that sometimes people just want movement forward and they just want *something* to happen (subconsciously creating stuff to make it happen). I didn't mean to offend you if that's what I did.

take care

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

resspect - I think that sums it all up for me. I just need to learn to respect myself. I think Theressa's post to me is so wise. I waz going to go through it point by point, but I think that that would take away from what she says.

It seems to me it is all contained in the boundary setting. Learning to be sure about where the boundaries lie and not letting them get stepped over. I guess somehow I need to get myself into a position of redifing and making them definite.

I gues the rest would then follow. I just need to get there and that is probably about to take a lifetime! I just got so busy engaging that I didn't think about what I really wanted. I got the confidence to speak out, but I didn't have the skills to speak out in a way that got me heard. I think half the time it is a matter of seeing the next step. I could some of the time so easily give in and make my marriage allright. But it would be at the cost of myself respect and not honest. It would only lead to my being even more frustrated.

I have had, without sharing here too much an enormously stresful situation where others have not understood at all what was happening and formed judgments of me that were based on a brief period of illness. It affected everything. gradually, the truth is coming out but far too late not to have harmed my reputation. I must be a strong person to have weathered this. I still go out to face the day. Believe me, there was a point when I could have become agrophobic. I have had to force myself to overcome and it left me wondering what my use to society was any more. I AM USEFUL. BECAUSE I AM ME......

Strange day with my daughter who went back to wanting to take mme everywhere again. Then my son really acted out when he saw her. I will just have to keep up major reassurance. I think he is understandably worried she will turn on me again. I don't know quite how to handle it NOT BECAUSE I AM INADEQUATE BUT BECAUSE IT WOUKLD BE DIFFICUKT FIR ANYONE. I am prabably doing well. Both children are relating to me....

When I wrote the post Therressa replied to I was just trying to formulate what I really did want in the relationship I have with my husband. I think I have a handle on this now. The thing is you have to turn the hand;le to open the door.

Ijust ned to get into my head that I don't need to be taking the responsibility for what goes wrong, but also what goes right and I can only take a bit of the credit for either.

Theressa, I am so glad the catbox has worked so well for you. About the consellors and therapy. I guess we just need to be open and show what together people we are to promote change. One thing I do know. In the week and odd nights I spent in a psychiatric hospital it was very difficult to see who was a patient and who wasn't. I could see who was genuinely mentally ill, but those in emotional crisis were just ordinary human beings. So a lot of the time were those who were mentally ill. It took ages for it to sink in that if I went into town people just saw me as a shopper and not an idiot.

Still waiting for the course to arrive. Theressa, I do go abroad sometimes just hop on the ferry to France on almost impulse. And idf you saw the ridiculous array of bubble baths and candles etc....Now that is one thing I have got good at; pampering myself.

A friend and I went to Boulogne in France a while ago. We went on a Sea Cat. Great fun. Getting off the ferry we followed the crowd and duly presented our passports. It was then we dscovered that almost everyone else had merely taken the ferry to get cigarrettes and booze cheap and was going straight back home!

dear Theresa again, aren't your parties like the ones I go to. Usually someone has some children and they have a good time. Although I personally think your ex should make a time each week to babysit so you can go out. Is it actually true there would be drunks? Or is that something your ex is saying? I suppose it depends on what sort of culture you and your friends have but I wondered if he is making unfair assumptions. I am not advocating taking a child where there are drunks. Just questionning if it is true anyway as you seem like a really caring mother and I can't think you would take your child into danger.

dear AJ YEAH! I get you. Didn't think of it that way before.

Dear Lynn. What would Dan do if you told him what you wanted done with the washing?

Trubble - It is nearly bonfire night here. All the dogs and cats should be locked up. Does that happen to you on the 4th July or do you like the fireworks. (I am basing this on my extensive knowledge of Laura Ingalls Wilder. I found theswe books as an adult. I love them but aren't they all sugar sweet. No time to worry about relationships in those days as too much woodchopping? And Ma FROZE the laundry dry.

Theressa I think you might have used the capitals to distinguish your post from my original. I didn;t know this but apparently capitals are shouting on emails etc. Which means I must have shouted a lot as I continually press thr capotals button by mistake and noone told me.

Love and happy nearly Nov. 5th to ewveryone. Bigger here than Halloween. Jay.

 

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Dear Asha,

Sorry if I sounded offended. I wasn't. I haven't been "out" chasing guys in over twenty years. I was a logical assumption though, because there has been a lot of stuff going on lately. This guy and his family have been friends since we moved here. He's also waaaay too young for me. It was my response that floored me. I'm just a huggy person. He hugged me last night and I was almost panting. Very unusual. Was also home before 10. Wasn't like a bar close pick up. We didn't even spend much, just were gabbing.

Theressa and Jay, I'll get back I'm sure, Asha, What to do about deception? Jay, I've told him about the laundry. He say's I'm just trying to help you. I go sit down and let him do his laundry thing. This is new, by the way. Since July maybe. Thanks and love you all, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

This is Lynn. I can't see f there are any new posts as my screen says page is too full to use, so if their are some, hello.

I think I figured out what I have to do. Give up! I gave this the best I could and I tried to be by his side and that didn't work again! I wasn't home last night and I didn't answer the phone tonight. I have to get strong, because I've had a couple of new ones thrown at me and I have t disregard them all.

I think this stage could be described as grief. I think I'll have to make him mentally dead as far as I'm concerned and get on with my mournng. Lot's of reasons that I came to this conclusion. The relatioship as I expected it and wanted it has been dead for years.

Anyhow. I'm going to try and call the counselor for me and try and wean off of here gently and get on with whatever it is I have to do. Whatever I do, Dan will have to do his own thing. I see why it's better to part and try and fix (or not) this kind of a relationship.

He'll either do his thing or not, but I know that I gave it all that I could.

I'm almost sorry he's coming back. Things ave been pretty peaceful and finctional while he's been gone (except for the calls and the lie). I even did some of the clothes and hauled in some wood. Now I'm going to get into bed with all the "creatre" comforts and read and get a good nights sleep.

I will talk to you soon. I do love and thank you all. Happy thoughts in all directions. Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear Lynn

You sound very peacefull. I know the feeling of giving up. I had it twice and it felt like oke, I did what I can, if he doesn't or can't work with me, it's over. Very peacefull place to be. I don't think however this feeling is necesaraly about giving up. It is about letting go. I feel this is what letting go is about: you do your stuff I do mine, and then we will just see shat will happen. You let go of the need to control the outcome and that's great. Maybe it would be a good thing to go for a informal separation and see how things develop. I know for sure that beeing close togehter in situations like this is no good. You don't have time to rest and leave it be.

As for the theatrics, I hear you loud and clear. C. is very, very good at them. The whole range of playing for pity, for fear. I don't think he knows he does it though, it's just his way to get attention or, indeed get me away from a certain issue. It worked for a long time, cause I always engaged. I don't anymore and I haven't seen drama for a while. I miss it sometimes, because it did add a certain spice to things, but it also makes everything very very unclear.

Lynn, please take good care of yourself and keep close to what you feel you have to do. I think you are right about the grieving, you feel you lost something that was maybe never there. But still, I think, that doesn't mean it cannot be. I am not trying to tell you to give it one more try. Just to get a closer look at why exactly you are feeling like this. And give yoursel;f ample time, if need be, away from Dan. I feel what happens now is very oke, you are looking at you own feelings and needs and letting go It will give you space to think. Love you.

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Hi everyone, B. here.

I don't believe it, but I finished reading all the posts...

Jay wrote:

"I spend so long worrying about everyone else" [Dr. Irene said: YES!!!] "I don't leave time for me. That I need support. Going right back to my childhood I have always had to look like I was self sufficient and coping. I don't know why I find that it is so hard to admit I can't."

I feel so much like you! And it seems to me it has a lot to do with us not being able to appear vulnerable. Just last week I told my therapist I found out that I NEVER let anyone - not family, not friends - see me cry. I am the strong one. They all come to me for help. I waste a huge amount of energy to control my vulnerability, my depression, my feelings of inadequacy, my helplessness etc. from getting out in front of them. She said it was good I could at least let myself be all that with her. I said, : Well, let's be really cruel ! Nobody in my whole world wants to listen to me when I'm weak! I PAY you to be here for me!"

Theressa, About yout daughter's tantrums: please forgive me, i'm going to say it bluntly: why fight with her? Why should you be controlling towards her? If you look at it from this angle, you might decide you don't want to.What will happen if she does not dress in the morning? If she goes to school by herself, just make sure you prepare her food and clothes and whatever. She can be late. Her choice, what's it to you. School is not so important anyway and it's HER life, not yours. But, if you need to drive her and her lateness makes YOU late for work - then simply take her in her pajamas! Let her wear the clothes on the way or something. No anger, not as punishment, simply to solve the problem. Which is: How to let her do her thing her way, while at the same time not sacrifising YOUR life.

One suggestion about a new non-coercive attitude: talk to her first. If you wanna do that, say you have decided that dressing is her choice, but also state YOUR needs. your needs should not include her dress. They are about the time you need to leave home (my example, I'm inventing here just to illustrate my point).

Treat her like a grown up: differentiate between what her needs and your needs are, be careful of any control.

Dr. Irene, I'd be very interested to hear you on this, because I haven't yet seen any comment by you concerning control issues with children, though you would detect the same behaviours as controlling when they're done on spouces. Like H telling wife he can't let her wear this dress to the ball, or wife telling hubby Oh we're going to be late, you're never ready on time, take the blue tie already and let's go!

Theressa, about the party and your conversation with H: I loved your "translations" - Guilt, Obligation etc. However, while reading it I felt that the Guilt and Obligation were HIS no less. Think about it: why attack you unless HE felt bad that he could not help? What I did not understand is why you called him in the first place. Did you want to save him from coming over just to find you two gone (co- dependent! He should call before he wants to come, you don't have to be there at all, and it's good for him to come over when he pleases and find an empty house) or did you want to ask him to babysit her? If the second, then after his reaction, you might have just said: "I understand that you are telling me you cannot babysit our daughter tonight. OK, then, bye" and hang up. If he criticizes your parenting it's because HE feels bad as a parent. His guilt talking.

Becky, i think Dr. Irene meant that there may be truth in what your H said, that you are incompatible. Maybe he really is not good for you.

Asha writes:

"Just realized I really hate that word - codependent - it's so disempowering."

Just recently I had to explain what "codependent" is to someone who does not know English. It took me a while to find a translation, but finally I found another word, which I think is better than "co-dependent". "co dependent" is such a "professional term", not a word you read and immediately know what's it all about. I started saying: SACRIFYCING. Lynn, when Dan called and asked you to do something and you didn't even think to think it over and choose whether you wanted to do it or not - that's sacrifycing. Jay, trying to stop sacrifycing for your daughter. Theressa, almost feeling guilty for not sacrifycing the party (getting smart and doing what's good for both you and your daughter, but still getting angry at his nonsense because you're still not 100% sure you're entitled NOT to sacrifice), etc. etc.

It seems a clearer, more "transparent" word to me - though not necessarily empowering.

Love you all, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Hi, B. again.

Forgot to answer your questions to me: my H and I have one daughter, 3 years and two months old, still nursing, and the greatest person I know on earth (I'm an objective mother LOL).

About sacrificing.

This is my problem, the one I said I wanted to talk about.

Since I am "sacrificing", and responsible and attentive etc. etc., I find myself doing too much, whereas my H does much less. Then, when I ask him for help, many times he says no. I feel I did 52 things and then asked him for help in 3, but he did not see the 52 things or thinks it was not his problem that I chose to do them. So I get mad: I did 52 things and he only 2, and now that I only ask him nicely for help with 3 he dares to refuse me?

What's worse is when I don't even dare to ask for help, because I am so afraid of the "no" and the argument: invalidating my request (you don't need that, it's not my job to help you, do it yourself, I can't do that and it's your fault, etc. etc.). I don't want to explain my needs. And I don't want to live with someone who does not appreciate what I do.

It's mostly that I need him to take complete care of our girl in order to enable me to do some WORK that I need to.

Problems:

1. Much of my "load" is not so much in accomplished things (that you can show), but in responsibility and care. I manage our home (bills, accounting, repairs, most of the shopping etc.), I manage the parenting, I manage my two jobs, many side jobs, my volunteer work, and more, I manage our social life (visiting family and friends, bying gifts, remembering birthdays etc.) and more and more. This means remembering, paying attention, taking care, holding a lot of stuff in my mind etc etc. He, on the other hand, does do things for the house and family - he's in charge of washing dishes, he does the supermarket shopping (the smallest of the shopping assignments, mostly his food that we can't eat, like dairy products) - but all these things are "technical", simple. I am still the one in charge.

Manage can mean, for example, that I see that we have two faulty faucets (out of 3!). He may have seen that (hard to miss!!!), but he ignores it in all possible ways (says nothing, does nothing, business as usual). However, I see it, say we have a problem, say we have to take care of that. He says yes, but continues to do nothing: as if it's not his business. I consider the options, I decide we need to replace them, I tell H we need to buy new ones, what do you think? H accepts (he does not bother to check maybe we can just fix them), and waits for my next move. All this is a short account of many weeks. I consider all our weekly plans, I tell him I thought we should go this Friday to buy faucets at shop xyz, is it all right with his plans? He says yes. We go, we check, we buy some, he forgets to get something needed to do the replacing job and blames me for it. This evening his father will come with tools and help him with the job (his father is the handyman in the family). We are paying huge water bills because these faucets leak for months, and it makes using them into an ordeal (I get no water pressure when I wash, because half the water spills through leakage, and it makes me miserable). But as he is who he is, if I just leave him to take care of it - it won't be done (like many other things that aren't done). However, I PAY the price for that (in both money and discomfort). Now, since I am who I am, I take care of the problem. But I am angry: I don't want to be the manager and the do'er. However, asking him to do it is still ME managing, and choosing not to do it myself results in nothing getting done and me paying the price.

He is used to be the little boy that has no responsibility at home (mother, father and big brothers take care of everything, and of you, little R., your job is just to take care of you) so he expects to continue being that without even realizing it (he thinks he does so much and works so hard, and he does! but he does for HIM). I, on the other hand, am used to be the exploited older sister, who takes care of everything. I also lived alone for 8-9 years before we met. I took care of everything, including electricity fixing, calling in repairmen when needed, taxes, buying a car, going to garages, everything. He married an omnipotent know-it-all experienced woman who knows how to take care of everything, and I married a little boy who never really lived alone or needed to take care of a house, a car, a pet or someone else!

That makes me stupid (why did I choose this??????), and anyway frustrated: this is whom I married. What do I want now? I can't change him and I don't want to live with this! It was all right when we had no children, but now I have everything on my shoulders and he does not see what I want from him.

2. My role is being the parent in charge of the house. His role is that of the teenager son: He has His job, HIS studies, and he just goes there. He also has his "chores" of washing dishes and going to the supermarket (maybe once a week). All the rest is "his helping me". I'm the initiator, he gets to choose whether he wants to help or not. I have to ask everything, again and again. If I say I have a problem, I need to do stuff, I need you to take our daughter someplace so that I have some quiet time to do that - he might or might not do it the day I requested (he oftern says "later", and then it's no good to me), but he does not want to get it that I need it ALL THE TIME. He cannot "understand": B. needs my help daily. She needs 2 out of 24 hours to NOT take care of our daughter, so that she can work on stuff. As the father, it's my job to do my best to give the 2 hours every day". No, he does not see that I am a mother 24 hours a day, and that my little girl is the first priority, so many times I need to give up my stuff to take care of her needs. He says: it's your choice! why should I suffer [=e.g. taking care of her instead of watching TV] just because you did not finish your stuff when the babysitter was here, because you took care of the girl's needs!

(of course it is my choice! but that does not mean I can raise her alone! and if he's saying I should raise her alone, it's not his job to do more than what he wants to - then he's no partner! Let's divorce, and he'll have visitation rights!)

3. When he goes out - to work, to study, to swim or whatever - he just goes. He does not arrange for a babysitter to take care of our daughter, or "worry" if I can replace him. He does not need to call and remind me to be there since he will not. When I go out, I take care to have a babysitter, I arrange it, or I check with him if he can be with her. When I teach, I tell him beforehand and also remind him that day: You know I teach today, so I need you to be here 10 minutes earlier. And then he argues with me! "why do you have to leave at 17:40? you can leave later, and then I can get home at my usual time!" I tell him: that's my need, period! But every time the same objections, complaining, trying to make me change my needs to make it easier on him. I'm so tired of the need to even HEAR these. Two weeks ago I almost took my daughter to the lesson with me (left him a note to come pick her up from my class), because he was late (arrived at the last minute). I felt so sure he'd remember, I did not remind him that day. So he just came home as usual, instead of 10 minutes earlier.

I resent it that he does not even realize that he behaves like a bachelor tenant whereas I am always left with being the responsible parent. He does not appreciate the fact that he can work or study or whatever thanks to ME, thanks to the fact that I am there. What can I do? Sacrifice my daughter and discard all my responsibilities? Die so that he will finally SEE how much I do and how much he depends on me?

This is my dilemma: I know it is I who makes it like that.

I know I need to do less so that he can do more.

I know I should find a way to TAKE my needs the way he takes his, but I don't know how to do that really.

The only way seems to be, that when he gets home I take my stuff and computer and leave to do my things elsewhere. But God, it's late, I'm bushed after a long day, I can't take the whole house with me, I want to do my stuff at home, and where exactly can I go at night? Sit in the car and work? Go to my parents'???!

And here I am now, writing to you instead of correcting students' papers.

Last thing: I also realised that I want to just be a mother to my girl, I want 2 more kids, I want to do some stuff (my LLL work) but I almost hate my jobs and I want to quit! Only I can't. I'm tied up until the rest of the university year al least. When I quit my paying jobs I'll be a lot happier and less stressful.

I must also say, that he really tries. He's very loving, mostly cooperative, helpful. He spends much more time with our daughter (right now they're playing Lego at my feet so I can write in peace), and he cooks and prepares food or us (I can measure my depression by my ability or disability to prepare food...) and generally really tries. Despite all that I still feel I have too much to do and he's not taking enough of the load off me.

Again, I know it's something I have to change in me, I just don't know what and how.

OK, enough venting. Would love to hear what you have to say. LOVE, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Hi everyone, Lynn here,

I think I know the meaning of disengage for me. I no longer care what the outcome of this relationship is. I had one of the off with the head dreams last night. Thanks AJ. Hi B, and much love. I'm thinking of you all,

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Lynn again,

My face has been broken out for months and I just looked in the mirror and I have frown wrinkles. I don't think I had them last month. AJ, it's enough to make me check into the State Mental Health Hospital.

B, I'll read you closer and maybe get back to you. Thanks all,

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear B,

Lynn here, I'm reading your post and laughing with tears in my eyes. The plumbing here. My tub faucet has leaked since we moved in here (6 yrs). I didn't have knobs, I used channel (sp) Locks for knobs so I could get them as tight as possible. I/we bought me a new tub a number of months ago. It sat in the entryway to my closet. Last week the tub started leaking cold water so much that I could no longer take a bath because the cold ran in stronger than the hot. Dan was going to try and re seat te old faucet. I said since you have the water off and winter coming why don't we just tear out the old tub (now in the yard) and put the new one in. He and I did and then set the new tub in place, but we have to go to town (70 mi) to get parts. He connected the new faucet and it is "there" I mean just that. It is dangling in the middle of the room. Not leaking thankfully. Now he's out of town and has asked me please don't finish this as he'd like to (for me). At least I only have one tub in my bathroom now, and if I called to get this installed (neighborhood handyman) he's said before, "what are you trying to do? Make me look like a fool?" If I don't nag this won't get done. This is where I came up with my 9 month limit. If I nag, he doesn't need me to tell im what to do as he already has a mother! The best part! He's been busy doing the laundry! If I didn't laugh I'd have to cry. All I want to do is take a hot bath in my own bath room. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet he'll go for months and not notice that I've taken over his bathroom. Crazy, isn't it? Then when I get on him about something else, he'll fix my tub.

No gripe, no problem, just letting you know that I hear you and if I had a solution, I'd share it.

Laugh till I cry with Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear AJ,

Thanks for the bit about the theatrics. I'll explain this in greater detail someday when I sort it out for myself, but the last one diverted me 180 degrees and then I didn't see that he wasn't even doing what he said he'd do and I was so busy (awestruck) ignoring the theatrics that I didn't see what was under my nose.

Thanks and Love to you, too. Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear B and the Cat Box coterie,

Hope I spelled that right. I borrowed B's board to do my explaining. Thanks B, Lynn

 

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear Lynn,

Sorry if I gave you the impression of wanting to tell you what disengaging should mean for you. I was trying to tell how it happened to me. For the rest, haven't a clue what to say. Take good care. Love , AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear Lynn, Jay here, wheny ou said you had a couuple of new ones thrown at you I didn't understand. New what?

Then you say you are in mourning. I think it is more like acce[pting that we never get what we want exactly and wishing it could be different. I wonder if you are accepting the situation, rather than trying to change it.

In fact, I think it is great you are deciding to let go and stop trying to fix it.

So I agree with AJ

Dear B.

I am almost at the stage where I think I have stopped letting anyone but a few very close people see I am vulnerable. I post here more openly than I could speak wlsewhere.

I'm not really sure if I agree with you or not abbout Theressa's daughter's tantrums. It may be good to ignore them and Theressa you wouldn't be the first mum to turn up to school with a child in pajamas, but I think rewarding the positive when it happens still would be more effective. A star chart with rewards small along the way and a bigger one at the end? The thing is that the other way there is no incentive to stop the tantrum and no choice. You could share how the chart works and even make it together. I don't think the issue is about control, but it is about being in charge in a right way.

Iam not sure about the use of sacrificing for an alternative term for co dependent. I can choose whether or not I make a sacrifice as it means I am giving up something important to me. To me, co dependence is about a false martyrdom and denying one's own needs in a way that harms the Self and promotes an unhealthy relationship.

i don't know really, just maybe another way of looking at it.

As for sacrificing for my daughter. I would and will go to the ends of the earth for both my children if I can se it will do any good. Sometimes I have to sacrifice the good times to help her. Like I could have bought her a phonecard earlier as she was short of money. So am I. I would have loved to. But it won't teach her how to manage. Part of me ws really into wanting to make the sacrifice....

We are still getting along folks..wierd still. She is so anxious to have me about but she doesn't want to come home. So close again. It was really odd tonight as she is now in a flat and two of her friends came round and I just found they didn't seem bothered about me being there. it was a bit unclear if they thought of having a party or not but I certainly felt invited. I just don't get this at all.

I kep meaning to ask, what does LOL mean?

I don't know what the answer is to your vent. You sound very overloaded and as if your partner gets all the fun of your daughter and you get the hard work. teaching is stressful in itself. I think. Maybe it would help to prioritise the things that are really bugging you and ingnore your husband and just get the taps fixed. Then share how you are feling eith him and work out a timetable and a list of the other things that need doing with a timescale. Could He pay some money towards fixing things? That way you take some of the load of asking repeatedly.

Also, could he agree a particular regular time each week so you can study? Could you both negotiate on the time management of that?

I don't think it is surprising you maried someone like your husband as you have repeated what you knew in your childhood and so has he.

And it sounds like you need a rest from all that coping and managing and some playtime. how you get that I am not sure unles you can have a break and leave your daughter with your husband.

I just noticed Steve has gone quiet.

And here on the riverside...(well that is an exageration it is quite near, I think I now have the ultimate in housework control. The housekeeping is halved so I am with no negotiation responsible for 5 meals a week and he will do the rest.....I think I will become a lady who lunches except I won't have the money to lunch. I am just too flabbergasted that I was told this in front of my daughter when we visited. However, so proud again I just said 'this is not the right place to discus this." and left it and haven't brought it up.

I am not going to. I really don't mind I just would have liked a discusion first. My daughter handled it well too.

And I kept firm and did what I wanted today without geting manipulated at all. Well done me! Yeah I am getting my self esteem back at last and feeling an equal human on the universe. Thank you all of you.

Trubble, I am becoming an independent cat.

Roll on interdependent cathouse. I can't wait to move in!

Love and Happy fireworks night to all of you in the catbox. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear AJ,

No offense at all. I think this is different because of the deception and lies. I think in this case I'd best disengage from his cons altogether. This was the final straw for me on teamwork. I'll have to get this behnd me before I feel much like being a team again. Don't be sorry anyway, I was having a tough time thinking of what I was going to do and I asked for the input. Thanks and Love, too. Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Dear Jay,

We must have been posting at the same time. LOL is laugh out loud. Me, too. They got me on BTW, by the way.

Dan is out of town and called urgent and in a hurry and wanted me to go the next day and find out what he had to do to get an absentee ballot for votig since he was out of town. He knew he might have to leave, so why didn't he check into it before he left? Well I did and he called the next night and didn't even have a pen and almost didn't know what I was talking about. Then he said it didn't matter as he "might" get Tuesday off to vote and then went on a 10 minute babble about why he thought it was so important to vote this year and on and on and on.

Then he got into the bad day at work and the crew boss made him quit for a while as he was making mistakes that could be dangerous and on and on and on and etc.

Just too much about nothing. I haven't told him yet that the shed he built for around my bike fell down. As if he expected 4 pieces of plywood propped together would hold up. A neighbor had to come and help me get out of the yard as it fell in front of the gate and then I had to go out and get a load of wood in as we're expecting a weather change and I had to crawl over all the downed plywood. I'm not amused about this either, because he could have let me do the laundry and hauled wood in.

Nothing serious, just that he's messing with me. I haven't answered the phone and don't feel like talking to him. I have to get strong enough to say ok, fine, goodbye. I'm getting there. Fom previous experiences though, then he'll do soething or need something that I JUST have to do for him! He'll just have to get his self home and do for him self. I'm sick of feeling responsible for him. I have enough trouble being responsible for myself! I did post a B's site, if you read that it explains why I felt I had enough. These little things are so rotuine that I don't pay attention anymore. Thanks Jay, and AJ and B and Asha and all the rest. I'll go crazier trying to think wo said what.

Becky,

I have a brief thought. C/could you apply for a credit card in your name only and get it mailed to you elsewhere? Then use it for $5 a month and keep up the payments and establish a good record with it Reason: Then when and if you have to get out you will have an escpe hatch and some $$ to fall back on. Just a thought.

Love to All and where are you Trubble? Not home from Trick or Trouting yet? Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 04, 2000

S1

Hi, everyone! Looks like the cat box(or house) has been busy today! I've been really sick today so I'm not up to much chatter, but I'll make a couple of comments.

First, to B, you make a good point! It never occurred to me that she was referring to the possibility that we are incompatible! That is certainly true as long as I continue down my newly chosen path and he stays on his old one! Today he remarked that I may be better off without him. I replied (I was very calm I'm proud to say!) that he was right--I would be better off-- as long as he 's refusing to work on himself. This is a change for me, as in years(and months) past I'd have gotten hysterical, begging him not to say that.

Lynn, I do have some credit cards in my name. A few years ago, I got a Discover and had him put down as a second card holder. He has his own discover card,though, and never uses this one, so I'm going to see about having him taken off. I've mentioned this to him and he doesn't care. My car is also in my name only, so I guess I'm ahead of a lot of gals who are in this situation. I do regret having the savings account in both names, mainly because I'm the only one who has ever contributed to it. If we divorce, he'll get half.

I'm going to sign off and get some rest. I had a violent IBS attack this afternoon. I am better, just very tired.

Take care all,

Becky

PS B, You mentioned LLL. Is that LeLeche League? I belonged when I had my younger son (first son wanted nothing to do with nursing). I have an almost 20 yr. old LLL cookbook I still use.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Steve here.

Just catching up on the posts. I see everyone has forgotten something. We are supposed to be working on our selves. Not our spouses or others. Coming from me, who took a while to figure this out, it should be a big wake-up call for you gals.

We should not be yakking about how bad our spouse was this time or whatever. We should be talking about how far we've come in controlling OUR anger, or figuring out what WE want from life etc.

How easy it is to slip into the vortex of "pro-dependancy". My new word. Means CHOOSING to be silly. CHOOSING to be dependant on others and also culturing them to be dependant on us.

Nobody makes us feel any way we don't want to feel. We've learned to punish ourselves with bad feelings. What about rewarding ourselves with good feelings? We could just CHOOSE to do that instead.

Lynn, Lynn Lynn. (3X for dramatic effect). What are you up to? Chuckle. It's a wild world. Smile.

Today, I CHOOSE to be ridiculously happy. How about you?

"Cheer up you old bugger. Remember what they say? Dust to Dust. You come from nothing and you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? NOTHING! - Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" - Life of Brian, Monty Python.

Steve

 

 

 

 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Dear Jay, B. here.

Just a quick word: a. When I say "sacrifycing" (sp?) I mean exactly what you mean when you say "false martyrdom" etc. We sacrifice our Self, our self respect, our needs, our values, to take care of someone elses needs which he/she could and should have filled for themselves. Note: if they cannot care for themselves (your small baby) it's not sacrifice, it's your job.

b. We have no such thing as "let your H pay" for whatever. We have a joint accout. It's my money too!

c. LOL means Laugh out Loud! B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Hi Becky,

Yup. LLL is La Leche League.

Steve, I was not sure if you meant my post too. My question was: what should *I* do to change the way *I* feel and the way *I* do things. I could use some advice of people who are seeing things from the outside. Have a great day! I am! B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Hi Lynn, B. here,

I wrote you a few words in my board. B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Dear all.

I have had it. Now I know. Stop being controlled and your partner gets worse and worse. This morning it was minor physical violence but I am not putting up with that. If only I could show a videotape of what happened. I have had enough. He can reduce the hoousekeping to nothing for all I care, Tell me what housework I can and can't do. Think he can tell me what to do. BUT HE CAN"T. That last biut of control just decided it for me. I will no longer tolerate it at all. Either I am treated as a sanr reasonable human being on an equal basis or I am not engaging AT ALL. There is a God who saw what happened this morning and so hy should I worry if he convinces other he is O>K and I am not it will all come out in front of everyone at some time.

Steve, I can't say what I want to say without venting just now You are probably right, but just now I need to put my anger whhich I think I need to get me acting down in a more positive way than yelling and shouting.

Is it abuse for my husband to refuse to tell me if he is going to marriage guidance or not? Help me out on that someone please.

Lynn Now it is not only washing control, it is cleaning the stove top control. I will be a lady who lunches soon with no money to lunch. I wrote a long tongue in cheek post last night to you suggesting we wrote a book with a title like "Laundry Control or "The day the bike shed fell down or controlled by laundry. But it didn't get through.

Dr Irene, Where are you I think we are all in need of you a lot just now. Trubble have you taken Dr . Irene on holiday? I think this is what maybe happened as there was unexpected blue pencil earlier in the week.

Becky. DON'T give up your joint account but do get a separate one too. I gave up mine and look where it got me.

I am sooosooo maaaaad. SoooooANGRY . But the good thing is I am so convinced that this is not with me it is at someone so sick they are unable to admit they have a serious problem with control.

I am me and I am going to have a life and my daughter is still talking and I am not letting him undermine that again.

I am me and me is nicer than this post might indicate to know. And I think things are so bad as my husband hates losing control.

He can spend his life doing the ...................laaundry. How ............sad.

vent vent vent............Sorry. Silly p[ost but good for me and better than shouting or crying. and I must be a recovering person as I can keep my sense of humour.

Har d luck husband, you can't have your Sunday argument and I will not be the loser.

I am going to be accused of verbal abuse if carry on so I apologise and am going to stop.

Happy Sunday without anyone controlling you. All. Love, Jay.

P.S Steve I agre with you totally but I am human.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

dear Steve, Whats with the bit about letting others be dependent on us. Wouldn't that make us controlling? love Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

B. B's board ..where? what am I missing. I want to see it too.....love Jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Hi Cat Box, B. again,

Actually I had a lovely day up until now. H called from work, offered to come to my work with a McDonalds meal (corn nuggets meal)we had a coupon for. He came, we did not like the food, but had a lovely picnic at work and we like trying new stuff. Some turn out to be good, some not.

Correcting awful students' papers is no fun, though... I don't want to teach BA students anymore!!! (but I signed up for the rest of the year at least, 4 courses in 2 semesters...)

Love, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Dear all.

I have had it. Now I know. Stop being controlled and your partner gets worse and worse. This morning it was minor physical violence but I am not putting up with that. If only I could show a videotape of what happened. I have had enough. He can reduce the hoousekeping to nothing for all I care, Tell me what housework I can and can't do. Think he can tell me what to do. BUT HE CAN"T. That last biut of control just decided it for me. I will no longer tolerate it at all. Either I am treated as a sanr reasonable human being on an equal basis or I am not engaging AT ALL. There is a God who saw what happened this morning and so hy should I worry if he convinces other he is O>K and I am not it will all come out in front of everyone at some time.

Steve, I can't say what I want to say without venting just now You are probably right, but just now I need to put my anger whhich I think I need to get me acting down in a more positive way than yelling and shouting.

Is it abuse for my husband to refuse to tell me if he is going to marriage guidance or not? Help me out on that someone please.

Lynn Now it is not only washing control, it is cleaning the stove top control. I will be a lady who lunches soon with no money to lunch. I wrote a long tongue in cheek post last night to you suggesting we wrote a book with a title like "Laundry Control or "The day the bike shed fell down or controlled by laundry. But it didn't get through.

Dr Irene, Where are you I think we are all in need of you a lot just now. Trubble have you taken Dr . Irene on holiday? I think this is what maybe happened as there was unexpected blue pencil earlier in the week.

Becky. DON'T give up your joint account but do get a separate one too. I gave up mine and look where it got me.

I am sooosooo maaaaad. SoooooANGRY . But the good thing is I am so convinced that this is not with me it is at someone so sick they are unable to admit they have a serious problem with control.

I am me and I am going to have a life and my daughter is still talking and I am not letting him undermine that again.

I am me and me is nicer than this post might indicate to know. And I think things are so bad as my husband hates losing control.

He can spend his life doing the ...................laaundry. How ............sad.

vent vent vent............Sorry. Silly p[ost but good for me and better than shouting or crying. and I must be a recovering person as I can keep my sense of humour.

Har d luck husband, you can't have your Sunday argument and I will not be the loser.

I am going to be accused of verbal abuse if carry on so I apologise and am going to stop.

Happy Sunday without anyone controlling you. All. Love, Jay.

P.S Steve I agre with you totally but I am human.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Dear all.

I have had it. Now I know. Stop being controlled and your partner gets worse and worse. This morning it was minor physical violence but I am not putting up with that. If only I could show a videotape of what happened. I have had enough. He can reduce the hoousekeping to nothing for all I care, Tell me what housework I can and can't do. Think he can tell me what to do. BUT HE CAN"T. That last biut of control just decided it for me. I will no longer tolerate it at all. Either I am treated as a sanr reasonable human being on an equal basis or I am not engaging AT ALL. There is a God who saw what happened this morning and so hy should I worry if he convinces other he is O>K and I am not it will all come out in front of everyone at some time.

Steve, I can't say what I want to say without venting just now You are probably right, but just now I need to put my anger whhich I think I need to get me acting down in a more positive way than yelling and shouting.

Is it abuse for my husband to refuse to tell me if he is going to marriage guidance or not? Help me out on that someone please.

Lynn Now it is not only washing control, it is cleaning the stove top control. I will be a lady who lunches soon with no money to lunch. I wrote a long tongue in cheek post last night to you suggesting we wrote a book with a title like "Laundry Control or "The day the bike shed fell down or controlled by laundry. But it didn't get through.

Dr Irene, Where are you I think we are all in need of you a lot just now. Trubble have you taken Dr . Irene on holiday? I think this is what maybe happened as there was unexpected blue pencil earlier in the week.

Becky. DON'T give up your joint account but do get a separate one too. I gave up mine and look where it got me.

I am sooosooo maaaaad. SoooooANGRY . But the good thing is I am so convinced that this is not with me it is at someone so sick they are unable to admit they have a serious problem with control.

I am me and I am going to have a life and my daughter is still talking and I am not letting him undermine that again.

I am me and me is nicer than this post might indicate to know. And I think things are so bad as my husband hates losing control.

He can spend his life doing the ...................laaundry. How ............sad.

vent vent vent............Sorry. Silly p[ost but good for me and better than shouting or crying. and I must be a recovering person as I can keep my sense of humour.

Har d luck husband, you can't have your Sunday argument and I will not be the loser.

I am going to be accused of verbal abuse if carry on so I apologise and am going to stop.

Happy Sunday without anyone controlling you. All. Love, Jay.

P.S Steve I agre with you totally but I am human.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

Lynn, Lynn, Lynn here, I hear you Steve and Thanks. Sometimes it's great to get a mans perspective on things (just not our own mants). Get us in control. And thanks. I'll get back to you, I want to start with:

Dear Jay, There is no such thing as minor physical violence. Trust me on this. My kids dad was a psycho and quite nearly killed me. Please rethink about where you are at and what this is doing to you and the children. Another laundry story, but my daughter was 10 days old and my X beat me up because I had 3 piles of laundry sortd on the floor and someone came to visit and he was furious because the house was a mess. He beat me terrible, I started hemhorraging (sp) and fell bleeding over my 18 month older baby and lay there next to him. He quit talking and walking and to this day he swears e can remember it! Enough, I don't like to dwell there. Please for your sake, don't!

OK Steve, thanks. I am trying to reprogram me and I don't know quite how. I did OK I think. Dan called last night and I told him. I got a couple of excuses, but answered in one word. He changed the subject and I answered in one word. A couple more tries and I stuck to my one word. Thn he gave one shot at co dependence vs. interdependent. I answered in two words. We'll see. It is so hard on me to keep the animosity out of my voice. It took me 3 days to cool down and talk without emotion. Then and only then did I answer the phone.

OK, I agree with you and so that is what I am doing now. I think with the laundry game, too, instead of sitting and letting him do his thing, I could say that I would rather he do the "anything else" and I'd do the laundry. (and then do so).

I think we are stuck in bad habits and I have to re program mine. (Not easy because I think I'm usually right, big GRIN). Joking aside, even if I am right, the way I'm responding and interacting isn't working, so it's time to change me. Really tough because I was raised to Stand by my Man. Nothing wrong with that as long as I don't let him mess with me.

I think you and Asha are wonderful. It's a lng haul and it won't always be your way or her way, but at least there seems to be a healthy compromise now. And I do appreciate your input. It is good to hear a man (not our own) tell where you men are coming from. Us women just go on and on trying to figure things out, don't we? I am learning that I don't hav to know the WHY. I don't need to analyze him. I need to do that to me. Thanks and hugs, Steve.

Dear Becky, I agree with Jay. Get another savings account in your name (with your kids maybe). Give yourself an open door in case you need it. I can't think of anything worse than staying becase you/I/we are stuck and have to. I'm sorry you are sick again and take care of yourself.

Instead of a communal cat box, how about a motel. We could have or men or our women, our pets, ourselves, our space and go room to room as needed or wanted? And a typing room for Jay's and my book. We already have the book, Jay. It just needs a little editing. I think some of us even know the ending.

Love to you all and AJ, B, Theressa, Asha and Astrid, hugs a bundle and Trubble and Dr. Irene, Hugs and Love to you, too. Me thinks you are lurking and have decided it's time we did our own work ^_^ and thinking. We just have to read the old to know where we are now and where we are heading. November 5th UK ???

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Hi all! B. here.

Seems that everyone is in similar situations...

Wanted to say, agreements and deals are no good. Never worked, and it's not the issue. The issue is I am a doer, a manager, an organizer, a responsible caretaker and a sacrificer (sp?). I don't want to be that anymore, because the other half does not share the load enough for my taste. I am tired and over stressed.

This is MY problem.

I also cannot "drop" it all, because I may have less "to do" or worry about - but then also my needs won't be met, and I will suffer from that too. Also, I have a daughter, and "dropping" my responsibilities will harm her first of all. I don't want to do that.

That's why I'm looking for another way to make a change. Obviously, I don't see the wood for trees. I am at a loss. I know partly what I do "wrong", but I don't know what and how exactly I can change MYSELF.

Note: I am looking for your advice regarding what to change in my self, not via talking to H or trying to change H.

I hope I made myself clearer (Ah! first venting, then phrasing what I want in a way others will be able to get what I really want...).

Jay, I'm with you and I agree with Lynn's advice. Lynn, good for you for not engaging! Don't fall in any traps, that's the way to go...

Love, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

B

Any chance of getting your hubby to post?

I think there are lots of things you can do. But it all comes down to your bottom line. i.e. What are you willing to live with and what won't you live with? As long as you accept things you don't want to accept, your H doesn't have to change.

If you think that living with it is better than not living with it there are still things you can do. If you have a shared account, then you could put a percentage of your own earnings into a fund that pays for outside help - i.e. sitters when your H isn't available, or just doesn't want to be available, and outside help for certain things. If you have more children, the load is not going to lighten up. Are you prepared to deal with this alone?

When your H says no, the only respectful thing to do is to accept his response (I mean respectful to you, and to him). I say this with some experience, because I would whine and complain to try to get Steve to do things. While it may work from time to time, it does more harm than good. When you 'accept' you are facing the reality of the choices you have, and allowing him to make his own. You can keep doing what you are doing (but I don't recommend that if it makes you unhappy), arrange for hired help, or decide to live alone if that's easier. If your bottom line is that it is less work to live alone, you can give your H the choice of contributing to responsibilities (and I would suggest you and he both be specific about your desires and expectations), or living without you. Talking this sort of stuff out takes a lot of time, so you would both have to set aside some time to do this.

I know you probably don't want to think about separating, but if you stay together, all the while building more and more resentment, you aren't doing him, your child, or yourself any favors.

I hope that helps.

Asha

p.s. I agree that co-dependency is better phrased as 'sacrificing' - this is more of an action than a label, and I hate labels. Martyrdom is similar, but I wouldn't want to be called a 'martyr' either - I don't find these labels helpful because they have an insinuation that something is wrong with *you*. I like action/behavior descriptions better because you have the power to change your actions and behaviors.

Hi everyone else - don't have time right now to respond to the other posts, but my good wishes are with you!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Jay: "Is it abuse for my husband to refuse to tell me if he is going to marriage guidance or not?"

Sounds to me like total disrespect. Of course, constant fighting is going to bring silly things like this. Tit-for-tat. The merry-go-round. He's punishing you. But he's really punishing himself. I wish I could put down clearly what happened to me. How Asha helped me. She helped me by saying loud and clear - NO! And she stuck to it. AND...she not only drew boundaries that I couldn't cross, she also worked very hard on those parts of her self that needed looking at. We are both still working on this. The greatest step is the first - awareness.

I read Becky's last post and was very pleased to see her starting to think (and do) like Asha. Her H seems a little tougher nut to crack than I was perhaps, but I do think there's a good chance. At the very least, Becky is going to be doing much better, and one is better than none.

"dear Steve, Whats with the bit about letting others be dependent on us. Wouldn't that make us controlling?"

Yes Jay, that's exactly what I mean. We want to control. (Yes we are silly). It's the way we are programmed. We control by making what we want to control dependant on us. It's really really bad. I am amazed at how much pressure I was under when I had to control everything. I'm much more relaxed lately. I'm watching myself closely, to see if I can catch me slipping up. It still happens, but I'm getting much better at recognizing it.

Lynn, I think you are doing the right thing now. So does Dan, don't you Dan?

B - "Steve, I was not sure if you meant my post too. My question was: what should *I* do to change the way *I* feel and the way *I* do things."

I think you are asking all the right questions B. I also think there comes a time when you have to do what you know you probably should do. I bet more than 1/2 of your questions you've already answered but you're afraid to trust your judgement.

To really get in touch with your feelings, and change them, you have to face the fear that is preventing you from doing that. Do you know what that fear is?

It seems like you need to say a clear NO to your H (and you know that don't you?). Say no, with love, not anger/resentment. You must do what's right for you. Really, it's that simple isn't it? I mean, simple to understand. Not necessarily simple to do. Highly possible though. Asha did it and I can't thank her enough. It hurt me deeply (or I allowed it to) at first, but it was soooo worth it. Now, I can even help her work on her self! We can both help each other. I could never have helped her before because I was just too oblivious to my own self.

If your other half doesn't share the load, you need to tell him what you really feel. With love, not anger at his poor behavior. Just draw clear boundaries.

I probably sound convoluted. And now I'll get even more convoluted because your situation reminds me of something.

I heard a guy on the radio talking about relationships. He said 50/50 doesn't work. It's a fantasy. It also creates a dependancy where you figure if you put something into a relationship, you begin to expect an equal dividend returned. He said, 100/0 is the way to go. Give 100 and expect 0 dividends. Give your spouse your complete trust that they will not abuse your wonderful giving nature. He believes if you do this, 99 times out of 100 your spouse will clue in and join you, giving you 100 and expecting 0. His wife chimed in and said if you are giving 100 and you can see your spouse is only going to take, then you are wasting your precious 100. That's when you really know where you stand. If you do the 50/50 thing, expecting dividends, you may get some because your spouse is giving in order to receive something themselves. Then nobody really knows what's going on. Whereas, if you give 100 and your spouse doesn't respond properly, you know exactly what kind of relationship you will be involved in. And you get out.

Make any sense? It does to me.

Love and Hugs for Everyone.

Steve

PS. B, I am not very familiar with your situation so excuse me if I am way off track...

 

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene. If as Lynn says you are lurking, then could you get Trubble to tell us. I would, for one feel reassured if I knew you were lurking just now. It would make the absence of blue pencil feel better. Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene, again, I keep losing posts. Is Trubble eating them? Are my posts so silly sometimes that God in his wisdom destroys them before they get to the screen Or are they lurking mid air on the internet? It is tje ones with humour in that go missing...Or maybe my MAC is having a nervous breakdown. I think it may be the last because of the repeated posts! Trubble I need MAC cavity (The mystery cat. Do you have him in the U.S?) love, Jay

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