Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

Hell, Lynn here with a bit of an apology. I really got into this with Dan, but it's been going on for over 11 years in my life and 36 in his. Before I left we had a long conversation about his sister and then little snippets while I was away. I felt I had the chance and so I wanted to get it done and over with before we buried it again. Anyhow, I've read some of the posts and have a few tidbits (Walleye for Trubble).

Theressa, you asked about Inner Child Work. My personal favorite is John Bradshaw. He has some great books. The way I interpret this is you dealt with things as a child and he teaches you how to think about this as an adult. (Dan just said he thought you meant how to help your daughter. If so, this is a wee bit advanced for her, this is for adults dealing with their inner child). Dan and I read Pia Melody's book on co-dependence and I did the workbook, but I never thought he worked on it. He made it to page 9. For whatever reasons, this wasn't for him.

If this is about just your daughter I have a bit of advice and this comes from mistakes I made. Talk to her. Hold her and cuddle her and reassure her that you both love her. I didn't talk to my kids about the divorce and this came back to me about 30 years later. My son was still mad at me because he felt I "never" told him what was going on. I think this is natural, trying to protect the children, but they still know that something is fishy. Yes, they do know. (Sorry Trubble, I couldn't help myself). Where is Trubble? This is for Jay, too. This son was in therapy and the therapist suggested a confrontation. Their idea of confrontation was accusation and where I did wrong and what I did wrong. This whole scenario went downhill until I finally left his house in the middle of the night and took a cab to the bus depot and headed home at 2 AM. I will not be bullied, abused, badgered or browbeaten by any person, even my children. :) We had quite a time over this and all is well now, but it was touch and go for a few months. I do have one regret. I wrote him a long letter explaining why I left town and what I felt he said that was beyond the bounds of "talking." I'm sorry I never mailed it.

Still, the gist of this is, I think we can tell the children what's going on. Don't make the mistake of spoiling her just because she doesn't have a "daddy" living with her. I've seen lots of this.

Dear Asha and Hi Steve,

I really think one of the subconscious rebellions of verbal abuse is "Quit doing housework!" There are probably lots more, but my place is a dump!! My daughter in law has a cute little plaque that reads, "Please excuse my dust, just don't write in it!" The more I tell myself that I have to do it, the harder it gets. The more I let it go the harder it is to get anything done. Maybe we should just move and start over.

Becky, Just a word of advice. Keep your $$$$$ Then if you decide you have to go at least there will be no reason why you can't. I hope things are changing for you.

AJ, You talked about changes. Changes are scary! We seem to get into these ruts and then it's hard to function when there is any difference. I knew this about me. I knew Dan would have to change with me or not, yet I never realized that when/if he started changing that I would have to, too. :) I still see us both slipping. I like my definition o a boundary. I call it slipping into my mason jar. I've got a mental image of it and there are times I can slip into it at will. There are times I do in advance, yet there are times when the glass breaks and I seem to have none at all. Mostly with Dan. I have the worst habit of trying to take on his hurts and pain. Ouchhh! I didn't last night, but I would have liked to. I can get so mad at his mother for what she's done to him. Then he'll get defensive about her and I get mad all over again. I had a brief spell of this yesterday of all things about a picture. He blocked it from his memory. I guess he has his reasons, yet I can't understand how he can simply zap something away. Ah well, another thing I have to work on.

Astrid, How are things with you? I hope you realize the dangers of the pot smoking and the mood changes. When I was bartending I could tell if a guy had been out in the parking lot smoking pot vs. the ordinary drunk. Most of these guys would sit there and grin all night, but every s often and for no apparent reason see or hear a slight and go off the wall. Druns are pretty predictable. And I've found that in a pinch a drunk could usually get enough of an adrenalin rush to help me, where the pot smokers (or worse) never had the ability to respond quickly to any situation. I myself can't even be in the room when someone is smoking pot. I get terribly depressed. Yet medicinally, the last couple of weeks before her death from cancer. my mom was nauseated and couldn't eat. We got her some and she ate, didn't throw up and chatted like a magpie. She was also terrified she'd be arrested. What I love best is the sales pitch on how little it affects these people. They ought to see themselves from a straight persons eyes. Especially if I knew them when the didn't use it. It seems it tells the brain what it wants it to hear.

Dear Dr. Irene, I'm strangely sad today. I'm thinking it's residual from yesterday with Dan, so I'll see if it's better tomorrow. I'm thinking of the changes, too. This does change us, because he has boarded this up before. Dan had the strangest statement, too. I asked where he was after his sisters death and he said, "locked up." Then he said he must have meant he locked this up in his mind, but I still thought the answer rather strange. Again, I'll see how this looks tomorrow and we have our 1st appointment with the couples therapist Monday. Good! I bought another Harville Hendrix book on couples as Trubble must have used my last one for cat box liners. :(

Take care all and I am sorry, yet typical. I thought of my problems first. Now I can think of others.

Love,

Lynn Good to have you back Lynn.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble (hope you're finally home) and the rest of the family, Just a short note to let you all know that I have thought a little more about May 19, 1964 and maybe I am finally getting the idea that I wasn't responsible and that I took thee blame to alleviate my mother of her responsibility and also because I had wished many times that my younger siblings weren't around and then she (my sister) wasn't.

I told Lynn last night that I may have locked up, I didn't mean physically but mentally. Two of the days that were lost for Lynn, were weekend days, we looked it up on a perpetual calendar, and they didn't bury people on the weekends.

She had died on a Tuesday and was buried the following Monday. I don't remember much of the time in between other than I quit school and we went back to our hometown and went to my Grandmothers and then went to a friends where we stayed until returning to the city where we were living.

We then packed up and moved back to our hometown. This was fine with me as I had never wanted to leave in the first place.

I will keep you posted as I remember.

Hugs I am so glad you are coming to terms with this Dan. Here is a little more food for thought: You hated sis and wanted her gone. Then POOF she was gone. I wonder if you hated mom or anybody else too over the years Dan - but would never, ever dare to wish anybody gone again. No matter what they did to you...you will always protect them from how you feel about them...

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

Hi everyone, Lynn here. Dan and I each posted tonight. I finally answered some of the others, but alas, they went to Heaven. Will try again tomorrow, but if this goes through We're thinking of all of you.

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

3rd try tonight. We keep getting Dr Irene is too busy to use right now. We're thinking of you...

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box Family,

I posted twice last night and neither went through. I had a long list written with an apology and tidbits for all. Things changed a bit with the last post, Dr. Irene, but I'll re read the blue pencils and do some thinking before I re do. Some answers I know.

I hope everyone is well today and I hope this goes through.

Have a great Sunday

With Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

Happy Sunday, All!

I thought I had a Trubble sighting, but was mistaken--it was just the neighbor's cat climbing up our window screen. The Burlington-Northern/Santa Fe tracks are nearby. I will keep an eye on the passing freights, just in case he has decided to be a hobo for awhile!

Well, what do you think--yesterday, husband told me that when he does something wrong I should just tell him, without getting upset. Do it. You've nothing to lose.

I said nothing to this, but was thinking all kinds of things such as: 1. He has asked me to do that before. No problem. 2. I have done that before. Same. 3. He still gets defensive and angry most of the time. 4. He doesn't alter his behavior. You've got nothing to lose by doing well by you, and that's exactly what you do when you communicate calmly.

Things are "fine" today, meaning the tension is somewhat less. I think he is realizing that there is a real possibility that I'll leave. My youngest son is in college, and when he transfers and is no longer as dependent, it will make a difference in how I look at this situation. Stability for him has been my priority. In other words, I think my H is slowly beginning to take me more seriously.

I'm not breathing a sigh of relief, however; we have had the honeymoon phase before. I am being very vigilant about not giving him the impression that things are hunky-dory with me just because he hugged me and said he'd try to do better. Heard it before! He knows that the word "try" is meaningless to me unless there is action behind it.

One thing that may have helped is that I told him that I know how hard it is to change ingrained behaviors and patterns of thought. I know how yucky it feels to have to dig inside for "the fix"--it's so much easier to expect others to fix whatever is wrong with our world. I told him that i didn't blame him for my co-dependent traits--I had them when we met, they played a part in how we interacted and the choices I made about our relationship (still do). I also told him that I don't expect miracles of either one of us, but that I believe we can have a decent relationship. He nodded a little bit, then softened up quite a lot. I think that deep down he wants a good marriage; he's just so scared! Yes.

As for depression, it hangs around, but I function, even laugh! I feel so tired all the time, though. I read Steve's comments, and I agree with Dr. I: he ignores the good aspects of these drugs. I have to wonder if he extends his opposition to drugs used to treat problems that are not connected to the psyche. Perhaps he does and I missed it. Should I not take Imitrex for migraines? Should I instead conquer the pain myself, thereby proving how strong and self-sufficient I am? Is the relief I experience some bogus state because it was brought about by a drug?

This argument reminds me of my husband's reasons for not going to therapy: 1. Therapists are just in it for the money; therefore they convince you that something's wrong with you. 2. If the therapist tells you that you are progressing, she/he is only doing it to make him/herself look good. 3. How did people solve their problems before there were therapists? In other words,(1) therapists are underhanded beings who can't be trusted, and(2) you are a weakling if you go to one.

Lynn, I found Dr. I's comments to you interesting. She is wondering why you are so caught up in Dan's "stuff." My first thought is because she loves him and doesn't want him to be in pain. My second thought is, if Dan isn't in pain anymore, he won't take it out on Lynn. My third thought is, if Lynn is concentrating on Dan's stuff, she isn't dealing with her own. Bingo. This is why I've been concentrating on not being my husband's therapist. If he wants to talk about something, I'll listen and support him while he works things out. But I was wearing myself out trying to explain the dynamics of abuse, and how it relates to unresolved anger, childhood issues, etc. I'd get so frustrated I'd say "How were you raised, anyway, that you could be this way?" and he'd reply, "That's right, pick on a couple of dead people." It was all so non-productive! I do slip up, but I'm better at catching myself. I can tell I'm changing that because when he says, "Tell me how I'm supposed to be," or "Tell me how I'm supposed to learn empathy," I say, "I don't know. There are good books to read, and therapists who can help you." For so many years I was scared to say that because I knew that he was holding me responsible for keeping everything afloat. If I let go of that, he'd blame me when we sank. What I'm doing now is taking care of my end of the boat--I'm doing my share. He needs to take care of his end, and together we can float. Since I've been letting his end go, I've felt more free to concentrate on myself.

A question for Dr. Irene: is my being angry and hurt when he disrespects me (that covers a wide range of behavior!) a "bad" behavior on my part? Of course not. Isn't that a natural reaction? Yes. But, if you take his words seriously over and over and over when those words hurt you, perhaps you are giving his words too much power. Perhaps you would feel hurt less of the time if you considered the source of those words are whether or not their content was accurate. I understand that I choose how I express the anger and hurt, and that expression can be bad. You can tell him you're not OK with what he said or did in a calm and detached way. I understand my husband to say that the feeling is bad. I think this is why he wants me to not be upset when I tell him I don't like how he's acting. I'm not sure here what you mean.

Til later, everyone,

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

Hi Becky, Hello (wth an "O" this time) all, Lynn here,

Just a funny feeling and then I got to thinking and then it hit me. I've been going through Dr. Irene's comments all day, too, and things here have gotten worse and worse since Dan met me at the airport. Then I went back to what happened when Dan met me at the airport. Bingo maybe. My plane was 1 hour late when I got to the airport and then shortly it was announced that it was 2 hours late. I called Dan and told him. Somewhere along the route we picked up an hour so I actually arrived only one hour after schedule, yet 1 hour before I told Dan to be there.

I got my luggage and went outside to smoke and wait. About an hour later he comes through the door and started explaining to me (after a quick kiss on the cheek) that he was so stupid, he had been there for 15 or 20 minutes and then finally had a bit of the sense God gave him and went and asked the main desk when the plane was due and he was told it had arrived an hour earlier than expected.

Before we left the parking lot I asked him if anything was wrong and he said no.

We went shopping and he got us a new electric fry pan and a new pair of tennis shoes. When we got home he asked me what I wanted him to do with his old shoes? I didn't get it, but thought it was a strange question and told him I didn't care what he did with them. I put the old fry pan next to the garbage and he asked me what he should do with it? Still didn't get it.

Next day more of the same except he talked to me about his sister. This is a long story itself so I'll let it go and get on with the rest. We are moving furniture and trying to make more room and I'm feeling the butterflies in the gut. More of the same. What do you want me to do with this and general hang dog. 150 watt light bulb !!!! I asked him to sit down and talk to me. I went with my gut instinct and asked him if he was still upset because he left me sitting at the airport. Woe begotten, head held in shame and sorry because he should have checked at the desk and known I was in and not made me wait.

Holy Cow says I. Is this what's going on? Yep. I can't figure it out and I still can't. Sheesh, he was there when I told him to be, the airlines can't keep their schedules straight so how could he be expected to and anyhow, I was visiting people and sitting in the sunshine and no biggie.

If this was a problem, why didn't he tell me when I asked? It's hard to recognize what's going on when you are in the middle of an emotional reaction... Why is this still a problem with him 3 days later? Over-responsibility. And I'm sitting here feeling generally yukky and wish he'd quit beating himself up over something like this.

My wishes. I wish he would have told me this from the start and now I wish he'd believe me when I say this isn't a problem and never was. So now I'm going to drop it and refuse to play this game because I don't understand what is going on or why. Right. You don't want to get emotionally involved; it won't help you or Dan and it will just wear you down.

As for his sister. Actually, the other night was rather productive and maybe I didn't explain well, but I've been through this with Dan numerous times where he cries heart wrenching sobs, but the next time it is always the same issues. This time I suggested he write it down (not necessarily post it) so he could look at it and remember that he said he had no control over it and he wasn't responsible. I think he can get selective amnesia about this and then start blaming himself all over again and I was hoping if he wrote it down and reread it, he would realize that he wasn't to blame.

I'm sure a lot of this came out again as his nephew that just died lived in the same town where his sister did. I think I finally asked the good question. How did he feel about her? No wonder. No wonder.

About the knife Dr. Irene, what I was so agog about was when I asked if his parents knew he carried it. Yep. Ouchhh.

Becky, I wonder if your H might be more willing to work things out knowing you can leave at any time? I hope so. I never thought you stayed because he was a total no gooder. He has to have a few qualities that make you feel it's worthwhile to make the marriage work. Why else would you bother.

I do know that I am changing, too, as I'm eager to get this dump cleaned. Speaking of dump, the loo is the bathroom. Was that Jay?

Enough explaining, I'm feeling really gloomy and don't quite know why. If it is hormonal it's because I take herbal hormones and won't go back on estrogen. Change O Life and soy. I still think meds have a time and a place.

Dr Irene again, If Dan is shooting himself in the foot what do I do here? Nothing. I told him it was no big deal and he still insists he feels like a fool for not being there. Let him work his issue. I've refused to engage and he's moping around like (my words here) I said it's no big deal but he knows it really is. Big yukkies with/for me on this one. I think he's trying to engage me on this, too, like the turkey episode. What is it about "No problem" that he refuses to hear? You are engaged. If you weren't, this wouldn't be bugging you so. Something's going on with you. Are you frustrated that you can't sooth him? Do you somehow feel responsible for his pain?

Hello the rest of you and I'll check in tomorrow night. The last I saw of Trubble he was at Union Station with a doggie bag and an AmtraK Pass. Do you suppose he's conducting? I can't believe he's after lost baggage.

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene and the rest of the family,

Good question Dr Irene, I really can't say whether my feelings are from guilt or responsibility. Perhaps a little of both.

I know that after Lynn and I talked about time sequences with my sister's death, I understood here she was missing the time period. I also know that no matter what, looking in the refrigerator when I was right there, she was already dead. I blamed myself and carried it for all these years and maybe wishing her dead was one of the reasons. 14 year old Danny sees this I think, at least I'm typing about it and haven't started crying as I usually do. You realize of course that 14 year old Danny is allowed to have a kid's feelings. Kids are allowed to feel anger, resentment, hate. Kids are allowed to wish others dead.

I know that about the third whipping that I got, that I wished my dad was gone. It wasn't long after that that he went to work on the traveling section gang. Of course, that backfired because that's when I had the responsibility of my younger siblings placed on my shoulders. You couldn't win...

I think that I have carried this responsibility all my life. I know that even after I married the first time, my mother would call me if my younger brothers acted up. At least there she didn't wait until my dad got home to get them disciplined.

Lynn says that I have selective amnesia. I think that sometimes I may have. The reason for this is that she bought a picture of a house which I said reminded me of one we lived in in the city where my sister died. I don't remember the picture at all. When I asked if I could look at it again, she said that she burned it because of that reason and she didn't want to drag this up again. But, I'm real glad YOU'RE dragging it up. Only way to deal with it...

I have been kicking myself for not checking on Lynn's flight, mainly because I don't like to wait and don't like to keep her waiting. I cussed myself for being stupid but was relieved when I saw her. Posting this, I can see where I transferred my feelings to Lynn again. Excellent. I felt that I had done something stupid so I imposed what I felt into Lynn's thinking. I really thought that I had let it go. I am not trying to engage Lynn, she said it's no biggie so I have to tell myself and quit dwelling on it. This stuff runs deep. You have to catch it at even the subtlest levels.

I asked her about the tennis shoes because she has been after me to get a new pair for awhile. Look Dan, right here you've made her controlling mommy! Who cares what she's been after you for! You made her mom because you had to sacrifice yourSelf to save her feelings. Wouldn't you have just thrown the old shoes out had you been living alone? I didn't expect it to get this far out of hand.

I would like to comment on Steve's medicine post. I agree that too many kids today are classified ADD and prescribed medication. Those that need it need it but I think that part of this is that kids aren't allowed to burn off energy through pick up football, baseball, or any other game because parents are afraid that they may get hurt. If it's not sanctioned by the school or YMCA then it's a no-no. There also could be a personality conflict between student and teacher also. With the laws as they are, even parents can be taken to court for child abuse. I had a student who told me to F--- Off, when I sent him to the Dean of Boys he got a slap on the wrist, 3 nights of detention, which he didn't have to serve because he was a bus student. When I talked to him about his mouth, he told me that if I touched him, he would sue me for everything I had, see that I lost my certification and press charges. A hard choice for a teacher, let him go or face unfair censure. Big personality conflict between him and I. He later became one of my better students.

Medication would not have helped him, me maybe,:) but that is all I have to say about medication and those diagnosed ADD.

I missed some of the family but hugs to all.

Trubble, Where Are You? Yeah!

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 22, 2000

S1

News Alert! A UFC was reported flying low over the great lakes and heading east. Could that be Trubble who took off on my broom??

Watch the skies..... :)

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dr Irene:

The interior of my coffin is blood red, what didja expect? Lavender is nice, but it doesn't taste good. I don't know; never tried biting silk...

I asked my cat where she thought Trubble was. She said "I don't care". I think Trubble is just hiding for the attention. Maybe we should just ignore him until he gets bored and comes back. Hmmmm...

AJ: I accidentally called you AK in my post Oct 20, so you may have missed it.

Sorry 'bout that.

Dan - was there ever an investigation as to who may have done this to your sister? I don't mean to dredge up horrible stuff, so don't answer if you don't feel like it. Hmmmm???

I am beginning to understand the very yukky pattern of reading what you think are your partner's thoughts and then acting on them as though they are real. Steve likened that sort of thing to a picture that gets "frozen". It's as if we put a template on our partner and can't see them any other way. It takes conscious effort to remove the template. I think you are seeing what's going on, but it will take some practice for it to become second nature. Just my thoughts. Wise thoughts.

Hi Lynn. It was quiet here without you, but we survived. Things are just... well peaceful for me, lately. I agree about the housework - ah well, when you're 100 years old what will it matter, right? What's a little (or a lot) of dust anyway? Is UFC unidentified flying CAT? hehe

Becky - did you see my post addressed to you in Catbox 7 on Oct 20th?

<<Well, what do you think--yesterday, husband told me that when he does something wrong I should just tell him, without getting upset. >>

I hope you don't mind me offering my thoughts here. As I said to David, in the Buddha section, if this is helpful, great. If not then disregard it.

I think your husband is actually right. Being upset is being disrespectful to both you and him. Why let it hurt you? You will be most empowered if you just look at what "is" and make your choices accordingly. If I were you I would expect nothing from him, and just work on you. I think you are disappointing yourself by expecting him to alter his behavior as a result of how you behave towards him. It's like Dr. Irene told me - don't anticipate negative behavior from him, just let him be. And then decide what you can and can't accept in your life. Again, I think you'd really benefit from the book "When Words Hurt". I'm getting a lot out of it. (thanks for the recommendation Doc :)

Also, in general I agree with what Steve says about what he sees as the over-prescription of drugs. However, this isn't to label those who do find them helpful as bad or weak people. I tend to agree with what Dr. Irene says is a narcissistic focus in our society. Drugs may offer relief to some, but I think that a strong sense of community support and belonging could replace drugs in a lot of cases. I would like to see more focus on these things in our society. And I want to help do that.

I don't think Steve was saying "no drugs EVER", at least that's not how I read his post. Personally, I think it's helpful to read up on some of the effects of anti-depressants - I looked up SSRI on the zworks.com search engine and not every medical expert is convinced that their benefits outweigh the risks. However, each person's situation is unique and I can't say what is right for everyone. I do think drugs are helpful for some things.

<<This argument reminds me of my husbands reasons for not going to therapy>>

I know what you mean about 'excuses' such as those you named, but I don't feel that Steve's post was like that. I think he is honestly addressing issues that are of concern to him. I was, in fact, very impressed with his post and the tone of it. Actually, I'm proud of him for it! :) I feel that if Steve were looking for an excuse to avoid his issues, he wouldn't be posting to the site at all. What I am seeing from Steve is that he is looking at his beliefs, concerns, fears etc. - ALL of them and rather than needing to be 'right' about them, he presented his observations to the forum for input. This is positive! Really positive! I just wanted to clarify my thoughts and feelings - no offense meant or taken.

<<he says, "Tell me how I'm supposed to be," or "Tell me how I'm supposed to learn empathy,">>

Though I agree you shouldn't play doctor to your H at least he is becoming aware of what he needs to find out. :)

Dr I: I didn't understand the comparison to Scientologists, who I think are a nutty group as well. Maybe it's because I don't know enough about scientology - my impression is that it's basically a method of brainwashing, Yep. but I could be wrong. The comment seemed just a touch provocative to me, like if I was to compare your beliefs about prescription drugs to those of the Moonies. :) (provoke, provoke :) Was it perchance after midnight when you posted? :) I really think you should consider switching from lavender to blood-red - blood red is much more calming. The Scientologists are, in my opinion a nutty extremist group. They were offended by psychiatrists dismissal of their "therapeutic techniques" and so went after psychiatry and the prescription model. They vehemently attacked Prozac. Or, this is how I understand the story. Provocative? Yes. I mention them because I found Steve's account, while intelligent, very extremist, angry and rebellious (not that this is all bad by the way). Doubting that he would want to be associated with such a group, I compared his views to theirs; they really are similar! After he's done being mad at me, maybe he'll examine the anger in his extremism - and decide whether or not he wants to hold onto it. Because anger is exactly what it's about.

see you after sunset.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene and the rest of the family,

Lynn told me why she wanted me to write down the questions and about my sister's death. She also posted it so I won't go into it here.

I have been really thinking about what Lynn and I talked about and what we both posted earlier.

I thought that I was doing so well trying to resolve some of the issues which have led us to this site. I know that we slip and I have really tried to watch for the signs but I missed them entirely this time. I know that I felt guilty because I didn't meet her plane and why guilt I don't know. There wasn't anything to feel guilty about. An emotion which I placed upon myself. Could it be aftermath of the discussion which we were getting into on the phone and later when we talked about it the other night. It's just your unresolved baggage Dan; the old stuff you carry with you everywhere you go. You have to work that out and stop it, as you are doing with your increasing awareness. Lynn engages with your baggage. She needs to stop caring so much since it's not about her and there is nothing she can do.

I have always felt that I had a pretty good grip on my actions and reactions but I got surprised today because Lynn paid me a compliment on a makeshift shed that I put up to protect her motorcycle from the weather, and I tried to explain that it was just temporary, but then accepted it. So, I guess that goes to show that I am getting better at that. Accepting compliments. Yes!

I know just by my reactions and how it affected Lynn (by her post and our talk) that I'm going to have to learn how to express my feelings, those that are detrimental, and learn to talk more openly about them. Good: what you are essentially learning is that it is OK to be open with yourself and it is OK to be human.

The one thing that I know is that it will take time.

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dr Irene: "There are biochemical components to depression. Do a search. The info is out there."

Yes, I agree completely. Do you suppose there is still an unresolved chicken/egg issue here? Do brain chemicals create depression or does depression make brain chemicals? Stress certainly produces an increase in some chemicals/components (hormones etc) and decreases in others (anti-oxidants, white blood cells etc). Our brains are chemical factories for sure. I'm not convinced that we can't learn to create the correct chemicals ourselves. I am convinced that we CAN do whatever we set out to do, at least those of us whose biology is not too whacked.

Steve: "I have noticed a large increase in the word "illness" in our society at large. We are apparently becoming "iller" every day. We seem to develop new illnesses just in time for a new drug." Dr Irene: "Giggle! But Steve, drugs have been around since the dawn of time. Think "remedy", "potion", etc..."

Yes, but until recently, they were natural, and few. In all my readings of ancient cultures/tribes (I like history) I haven't come across any used for "depression". Probably because depression never existed. This may relate to a further comment of yours I've pasted just below.

Steve: "Our culture is getting way over-drugged. I wish I could emphasize that more. WAY WAY OVERDRUGGED!!!

Dr Irene: "Perhaps. I wonder though: Is there something wrong with our extremely stressful and narcissistically me-oriented culture; could that be part of the reason so many people are "ill"? Our ancestors lived in tribes. They had a level of social support we can't even dream of, like built in day care, lots of friends, community, etc. Are we sick in part because our culture is sick?"

YES YES YES. I agree with you completely. This is the rub. This is where meds come in. We fill a void. We want to perform a task, say, nailing a shingle onto a roof frame. We know our bare hands wont work. We look for another tool. A hammer works fine. Then, we drop the hammer and it falls to the ground. Maybe lost forever. So, we look for another tool, because it's starting to rain and the roof needs a "quick fix". Well, we have a nail gun up here so lets blast away...hey, that seems to work...who needs a hammer anwyay? Oooopsss...guess I blasted a few more holes than I needed. Hope the rain doesn't get in. OK if it does.

"I'm fixing a hole, where the rain gets in, and stops my mind from wandering, where it will go..." - Beatles

In the above illustration, the leaky roof is "depression", the hammer is our dropped social support system, the nail gun is the meds. Yes. We agree.

Dr Irene: "I think there is much truth to what you say, though I don't think there is a conspiracy."

You seem to be implying I believe there is a conspiracy. If so, you have misunderstood me. I don't believe that at all. It's very above board. There is a large degree of co-operation yes. Conspiracy is a dirty word in the year 2000. There are no conspiracies. Just agreements and sweet secrets. Grin. We tend to use the word conspiracy now, to subtly discount a philosophy or belief. If someone believes the US Government was behind the murder of John Lennon, it helps us feel safe about our Government if we can nicely label that person. The convenient label is "conspiracy theorist" or "conspiracy nut". However, simply applying a label to the opponent in no way proves the US Gov's innocence (or guilt). I stand corrected.

And yes Irene, I do omit discussion of the "benefits" of some meds. That is not my part. I would rather consider your observation of narcissism and social breakdown, and then address prevention. Many "symptoms" can be relieved with meds. However, I've never seen a "cause" be well-addressed with meds. OK.

Dr Irene: "You should be aware Steve. But, are you simply aware - or are you the rebel, looking for a cause? Perhaps both."

Grin, I like this one. I think I know the answer. There are many causes, and not enough rebels Irene. Too many sheople, too many foxes building the chicken coops. This is what I am becoming aware of. I am nowhere near being totally "aware" yet - I am just in the process of "awaring". A lifelong process to be sure. I feel that the realization of my "lack" of awareness is a great thing. Nothing wrong with rebellion; brings about necessary change, etc., etc. I mention rebellion in relation to you because I am trying to highlight the anger I see in your thinking. Not that this is "bad;" the content is fine, but the underlying anger can and will hurt you! I would like to point you in the direction of the anger so you notice it because it's clear to me from these posts that it's gotten in your life's way.

I think back to Monty Python's Life of Brian...Brian says to the thronging crowd who've followed him from Judea, thinking he is the Messiah..."You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anyone. You are all individuals" - The crowd replies in one unified voice, "Yes, We are all individuals." One guy in the crowd puts his hand up and says "I'm not".

Hehe. Great insight into mass-thinking in that movie.

Dr Irene: ". I understand Steve. I am aware of all you've discussed. But, I think you are a bit too far out, and, likewise, I am not looking to offend you either. You are however in full agreement with the Scientologists, a group I think is rather nutty. You cannot, I think, sanely take a position while excluding all evidence to the contrary. What you've failed to mention is the beneficial effects these drugs have on many, many people whose lives would be much more difficult without them."

I had to think about this awhile. At first, I was "push-buttoned" by what I felt was your comparing me to "nuts". Hehe. Now, I think I understand what you mean to say. :) And you also took away the power you gave me to hurt you - because you didn't let your button stay pushed long. Good stuff!

Sometimes, one may appear to be a little far out, when attempting to bring things back to center. When things have been way too far out one way, as is, in my opinion, the case with meds. Yes. This is what I mean by "the content is fine."

You weren't too clear as to which part I was in agreement with the Scientologists. Maybe you could elaborate on that. I can agree that they are a little nutty, mind you, perhaps our secular belief system is a tad nutty as well. If at times the Scientologists agree with me, then they must have some good points. I'm sorry. I forget that the little spiel I posted to Asha about the Scientologist-psychiatrist thing is not more commonly known.

It's true, I have failed to address the "beneficial" effects of anti-depressant drugs. That is because I don't feel I need to. Their "greatness" is already trumpeted brazenly throughout the heavens and the earth. My small voice would be lost in the cacophony I think. I would rather spend my efforts looking at the other side that rarely gets airplay. I want to understand the causes. I want to see what parts are pure Drug Cartel propaganda, and which parts are reality.

Maybe what we need is a wonderful placebo...

"All you need is Love" - John, Paul, George and Ringo. Thanks Steve.

To Becky:

Becky: "I read Steve's comments, and I agree with Dr. I: he ignores the good aspects of these drugs. i have to wonder if he extends his opposition to drugs used to treat problems that are not connected to the psyche. Perhaps he does and I missed it. Should I not take Imitrex for migraines? Should I instead conquer the pain myself, thereby proving how strong and self-sufficient I am? Is the relief I experience some bogus state because it was brought about by a drug? "

As I said to Dr Irene, yes I don't trumpet the good aspects. I am playing "angels" advocate in a way. Grin. That's because it really needs to be done. I need to look at everything. However, I am not angels advocate just for the pleasure of it. I am sincere in my attempt to look at the "other side".

You appear to be assuming that I am opposed to all drugs. I can see how you may have thought that. I should have been more clear. No. Some drugs are fine, for some people. I will take an aspirin once in awhile. I try a hot bath first and then try relaxation/meditation but there are occasions where I need a faster relief and I don't have access to baths or relaxation times. I hurt my back last year and took a muscle relaxant for a week or so.

Becky: "This argument reminds me of my husbands reasons for not going to therapy: 1. Therapists are just in it for the money; therefore they convince you that something's wrong with you. 2. If the therapist tells you that you are progressing, she/he is only doing it to make him/herself look good. 3. How did people solve their problems before there were therapists? In other words, (1) therapists are underhanded beings who can't be trusted, and (2) you are a weakling if you go to one. "

Sometimes his outlook may be right, other times wrong. It all depends on the therapist. Some only want your money, and your continued visits. Some are genuinely trying to help. I think Dr Irene made an excellent point about our social structure. We are not geared to helping each other anymore. Therapists can play an important role in this case, contributing to complete recovery. On the other hand, a bad therapist can aggravate the situation, sexually abuse their patients or even contribute to a patients suicide.

This discussion board proves to me that WE still have the capability to help each other if WE want to.

I sort of sense that you might have thought I was assuming you were a weakling Becky. Not at all. Quite the opposite. I think it takes an enormous amount of strength to actually do something about your kind of situation.

I have the greatest respect for anyone attempting what I know is a very difficult task. I'm sending lots of hugs for you Becky. And for your husband as well. From what I've read in your posts, your husband does indeed love you. Some of his traits do seem like some of mine, although they appear to be more ingrained, but that could be just the way you are describing it. He would probably describe himself differently. But, if I can do what I am doing (and I do truly feel like I'm progressing), then I believe your husband can do it too. I think you will need to be much like AK was to me. (Strong, yet compassionate. And, willing to see that there were ways she could improve her role in the relationship as well.) I think the reason I was opposed to Dr. Irene recommending AD's for you, was because I saw you already had a very strong desire to improve yourself and your situation. I believed you were already well on the road to awareness. I have great faith that you will continue this journey. To me, you don't seem to be anywhere near the kind of person that would need AD's. You are already committed to improvement. I didn't/don't mean to appear as "knowing what's best for you". I'm sorry if I came off that way. That's something else I'll have to work on.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Astrid: " Ideally, you should be the best judge of what you need to function. Obviously, we all in the cat box need some work on that or we probably wouldn't be here. *wry smile* But I think that ideally, we should be self-aware enough to know what we need to function and to make sure we do it. I am better at the first than the second, at this point. "

I couldn't agree more. The awareness is a great step, but acting on it to improve your self is when it really gets tricky - and interesting.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Theressa: "Aren't vitamins drugs??? chemicals??"

No, vitamins are not drugs. They are essential elements for survival. Without them, you get sick and even die. If you mean just capsule form vitamins, you don't need them if you already eat healthy.

Websters definitions:

Vitamin: any of various organic substances that are essential in minute quantities to the nutrition of most animals and some plants, act especially as coenzymes and precursors of coenzymes in the regulation of metabolic processes but do not provide energy or serve as building units, and are present in natural foodstuffs or sometimes produced within the body.

Chemical: : a substance obtained by a chemical process or used for producing a chemical effect.

Drug: a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication c according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device.

"other than food" - maybe apples aren't drugs after all? Wink.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jay: "...I think the people on this site are having, in a very healthy way, where applicable, a storm over depression and the drugs issue."

I agree Jay. It is very healthy. I also wanted to add, everyone on this site is making great progress. And, everyone here has helped me. Even though I got defensive at times (understatement?) with certain posters, I still found insight in their posts. I sense a very interesting community developing. A lot of people who care about each other. We are all journeying into the outer limits of our experiences. Sometimes I feel like a little boy gazing at the stars. What wondrous thing might appear in the heavens while I'm watching?

Steve I'm real glad you're here Steve.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Hello all *My* wonderful fans and family. It's *Me* Trubble and I'm on my way home.

I had a great time with MommyDoc2 and her family; had some yummy vittles too. Then on my way to visit Daddy Dan, I got petted by this nice lady from some Egyptian society who asked me to be Cat Of The Week! I said, OK! So, for a week I got pampered and brushed and fed and cuddled by lots of new Mommys and Daddys. I got a fresh catbox * every time * !!! It was so cool!

Love, purrs & kisses, Me

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Hi Becky,

I haven't a computer at home, so I only got your mail this morning.

I to find my ex used to still get defensive when I used "I", though it does depend on your tempo (speed of your voice), your tone (if your words are emphasized raise anywhere this is anger seeping out) Its not what you say its the way you say it. The HOW not the what. When words hurt is great, I have it. Need to re-read it again though. LOL

Can you Becky see you as a valid person???? This is also my problem. I know until I can see me as worthwhile and valid no one else will!!! Yeah my ex thinks if you give then you are open to being manipulated. Sad isn't it!!! Though I also feel like this somewhat with my ex. My ex used to be mad that I wouldn't ask him for feedback, (the reason was I didn't want tearing down and telling how useless I was, so I missed the useful feedback to, working on this now though!!)

I guess my ex and maybe your partner are afraid that saying we're valuable stops them being valuable. Guess they haven't grasped the idea that the world/universe needs each of us to be whole.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Hi Catbox family,

Last night I felt so hurt and disappointed. My ex as you know still visits every night to see our daughter. I liked him coming around, stopped me getting bored. (STOPPED ME HAVING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BE SINGLE, FIGURE OUT HOW TO BE ALONE BUT NOT LONELY)

Anyone tell me the difference???? between ALONE and LONELY???? When you are alone, you are with yourSelf; you are peaceful. When you are lonely, you are empty and hungering to be filled by other.

I noticed on Saturday he wasn't honest about what he was gonna do. He told me he wouldn't be stopping after 8.pm since he was going home to bed since he had a headache. I said "RIGHT". Then our daughter was missing him and we rang his home number, no answer. She started to cry so I rang his cell phone. He answered. I said "How come you didn't answer your home phone, he said "Well I nipped out for some alcohol. I said "RIGHT". The next day Sunday (yesterday) he said "Or Rob so funny last night, he said xxxxx" Then he paused and looked at me, not that you'd notice unless, like me you were watching his body language. I said "Oh so you went to Rob's". He said "Yeah". Why did he not just say this instead of saying he had a headache and needed an early night???

Then last night he said "T, now I am back at work, I think its best I only come Monday, Wednesday, Friday and when I get my house sorted in a few weeks, Mel can come and stay on a Saturday night once a fortnight. How did I feel?? I felt disappointed, hurt. Why? well I gave him 7 years and yet he doesn't want to come every night, YUKKKKYYY!!!! When he left I cried and cried. Why is it that my friend gets so much attention, her guys flock to her and treat her like a queen, why don't I get this sort of treatment, am I that bad, or unattractive???

Why at school, at work are others so attractive and yet I don't get a look in??? Where I work there was a girl she left now. Though when she comes to visit they all treat her like a queen, they laugh at her jokes, they can't wait to hear her stories. What has she got that I don't have???

Then my ex told me also yesterday he is getting a dog. I felt angry at him. He used to have a dog. I hated having it in our house, its hairs every where and i had to clean up after the pain in the but animal. Then we separated temporarily and he couldn't take the dog. He asked me to mind it, I said "NO", so he gave it to my sister who loved it. When I asked my ex in the past why a dog, or the dog?? He said "He is loyal and never lets me down, unlike humans". Why was I so angry?? I was angry because it meant if ever we did get back together I'd be stuck with a stupid DOG!!!

My therapist asked me what I wanted? I said what do you mean. He said "Theressa, you didn't want to go out with Lee, or have your ex find out he existed did you? No I said. WHy? my therapist said. Well somewhere inside me has this picture of my ex working on himself, and me to. (MY ex isn't working on his issues, he doesn't see his name calling or criticism or anger, or bad temper as a problem, that I do!!!) All I ever wanted was BALANCE!!! I wanted him to see that what i did was worthwhile and helpful and contributed equally to our household. HE NEVER DID!!! He always said He worked harder, he gave more YUKKKK!!!!

Yeah I know, I need him like, I need a hole in the head!!! so why do I want him??? why do I feel I need him???

Why can't I break free?? I know I can't force him to want to help me, or to change his attitude towards me. Though I am so damn frustrated. What is this all about?? why? can't he see how awful he is to me???

Why does he continue to prod my wounded self??? He plays me like a dog plays with a squeeky toy. I couldn't let him know about Lee, since he might have not wanted me. (Lee is a guy I met a few weeks ago but didn't want to continue, since my ex might find out and think I didn't care for him anymore!! and also the fact that me starting to date Lee when I am SICK unhealthy is selfish, I would end up treating him like my ex treats me, pushing him away, that and the fact I don't know how I am meant to be when in an intimate relationship???)

Anyone, Dr Irene hopefully, my therapist said "Theressa you sought functionality from your relationship with your ex and not didn't have an intimate relationship. How'd ya have an intimate relationship and not JUST a functional one???? Your relationship is superficial. You may do things together, but there is no real sense of friendship, safety, and comeradie.

Speak to you all soon Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Hi all, I haven't had a lot of time to read the posts as my 16 year old is still home and the crisis got one awful lot worse. To cap it all she took an overdose on Saturday - fortunately she is o.k and got away with just drinking charcoal - needless to say it is all over some boy..... Anyway, we spent a night in the hospital and she seems better now even if the saga; one of those which only adolescents can interpret, continues. I seem to be left with all the sorting out as regards to getting her stuff home. At present she doesn't want to live here and isn't supposed to but she has nowhere else to go. In the end we will have to sort things out so everyone is safe.

Though actually, since I've been posting to this site I have felt safe. I sort of can work out what is coming now and stop situations before they start with both husband and daughter. I am really hoping that my daughter can feel the difference too. having all the stuff on relationships has been great as I have felt so sure of myself.

And I am so proud. I've had reason to feel angry but I really have kept calm; especially with the psychologist. Even acted calmly and assertively to ask for a woman for my daughter as the man who first came was well, to be frank, weird. (Sorry Dr. Irene but I don't know who chooses some of the candidates over here! Sometimes I wonder the same thing...) My H and I also managed to present a united front for once. This happened as I just agreed with him and then put my point of view after.

Anyway, now I know I can be calm (famous last words) and really surprisingly my son worked out what I am doing and decided to jump in when he thought I just might get angry, although I wasn't saying he had something to show me upstairs! Anyway, our family has hit a new record for peace. We just need to help my daughter on board. later I have to go and collect all her stuff and even if it doesn't stay for long it will be so lovely to have it back in the house for a while! She is clearly unwell, so I am enjoying looking after her. Just hoping the nightmare time we have had can be sorted. Please God!

I feel really mean not reading all the posts. I guess once things are sorted out I will feel more able to comment. Just knowing you are all here makes life bearable. I have glanced at them and Dr Irene and others........

LOOS are toilets. I had an American friend once who asked in a house we were visiting in England to visit the bathroom. Guess what the room she was shown into (and she was desperate,) didn't have.

I also got really confused babysitting some American kids looking for Jelly. To us Jelly is your Jello and we have Jam. Trout with Jam Sauce

love to all, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Hi Becky,

This has really been helping me.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/codependency_recovery/34028

check it out.

HI TO ALL OF YOU,

Take care T.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Hi LYNN,

I did mean inner child work (as in work I need to do now I am a adult to deal with my child hood wounds). John Bradshaw what book of his do you recommend.

Also you answered another question for me about my daughter. THANKS this helps. YES I have told her about the break up, never got married so that has its benefits, my ex was never prepared to give me his ALL.

Have to go now to my next therapy session.

Thanks and hi to you all Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa

Why bother comparing yourself to others? We are all unique and special in our own ways. I think you may be looking at the cup "half empty", and what good does it do you? Why not focus on your 'good parts'?

You aren't ready to let your ex go are you? But as long as you are there and available he has no reason to make any major changes. And he may not make changes even if you're not available. I think that deep down in you there is a beautiful person in you just dying to come out, but you're holding yourself back. Maybe because your situation is familiar and the unknown is kinda scary?

If you really care for your ex, you can show it best by accepting him 'as is', and by honoring and taking care of *yourself*. Accept that he might not change, and let this be okay.

Maybe you could structure your evenings so that you have other things to focus on other than him. Just my thoughts. I'll send some good vibes your way. Can you feel them yet? :)

Jay - I feel so happy for you! Don't worry about reading all the posts. I think it could be a full time job reading and answering all of them. :)

I know what you mean about language differences. I was on a trip with a group of English and Canadian girls. The Canadians were deciding which pair of 'pants' to wear and the English girls thought this discussion was rather odd. Later I discovered 'pants' to the English means underpants, and what we call pants are 'trousers'. I'm sure there are a lot of other funny misunderstandings.

Dr. I - It's not the silk that tastes good, it's the dye. Yuk!

love to all

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear all,

Lynn I know how you must be feeling after your holiday: even a few days of not checking in leaves me all bewildered about everything posted. You posted that yes, change was scary and that with Dan changing you would have to, too. I have been realizing this over the past weeks wrote somewhere and I know it's the only way, but it's hard anyway.

This weekend C. and I stayed together as long as 24 hrs. (record for the last 4 months) and it was oke. We talked a lot about things we were never able talk about, like money. I really felt a huge pit in my stomach, but we talked anyway and there was a lot we didn't agree on, but we managed not to get upset and even still like each other afterwards. That was such an important lesson for both of us: we can disagree and that's oke, that's not the end of everything. It's great to try changing together, but it's harder than on your own I guess.

It's so much harder the get you boundaries in order with the people you really care about, isn't it. Someone once told me, if you have a difficulty with setting boundaries, think yourself in a golden circle and just pull it up when you need to.....

Dear Becky So glad you can still laugh. It really helps doesn't it. I don't know what else to say, it's all said by the other family members. I had a longer post for you but it didn't get through. So: just take good care of you, enjoy when you may and keep telling your H. when he is misbehaving, maybe also when he is not (a little positive reinforcement. Who knows, maybe it'll help). And don't feel bad about putting money aside. It'll help you feel strong!

Dear Asha, I read your post, thanks. I even answered it, but I couldn't get it through. It was basically about agreeing with you on trusting your mate and that I didn't think C's previous affair had anything to do with my feeling uneasy with him seeing other people. It's more like I feel left out some how (translation maybe: not able to control him).

You said Steve also felt weighed down by your ‘needs and demands'. I remember a post where Dr. I. Commented on Dan and Lynn, that Dan was feeling so very responsible for her well being. Maybe its a sort of pattern, anger and feeling responsible too much go together. She said they do go together . DAN WHAT DO YOU THINK? Dr I, your thoughts on this would also be very much appreciated

I think what you said later : << I am beginning to understand the very yukky pattern of reading what you think are your partner's thoughts and then acting on them as though they are real.>> is also related to something I said in that post: that I got angry at C. for ‘supposed crimes'. It really hit me hard that I would do that. Us humans do that all the time. Now, when I feel myself thinking he probably thinks/feels such or such, I try to stop myself and analyze whether I really have any reason for thinking it or am just making it up out of anger, insecurity, fear or wishing. I think I start recognizing it. But I suppose the times I do it without recognizing , I wouldn't know about it, would I :-) (or :-( ?). Still practice will do some good. How do you deal with it? Paying attention to your thoughts and practice will do BIG TIME good! For this, you owe me Trout!

Dear Jay, hope everything getting along oke. Sorry to hear your daughter overdosing. Please send her purrs and kisses from *Me* Don't worry about not reading all the posts. You can't comment on everything anyway. Just do what feels good for you now. Posting helps getting your stuff in line (online). At least that's the way it works for me. Also reading about other's problems often helps to get a better view on our own I feel.

Everybody take care. I am happy to be part of this cyber family. As Steve said: isn't it great we can help each other. Lots of hugs and love.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear Teresa I am sorry you feel so lonely. As for the difference between lonely and alone, for me it has to do with the way I feel. I've always loved being alone, but when C. left, I really felt lonely when I was alone. Now I like being alone again. Lonely has to do, I think, with the feeling of not having a special someone to share your thoughts and feelings with. I think you are so right when you say that having your ex over all the time keeps you from getting lonely enough to find other people to care about and be cared for by. I think it's something us Humans co-dependents do: when we have a partner, we have no other significant relationships. I was very frightened at first to get to know other people better, but I really needed too share and now I love talking to them and sharing and they have become a sort of home to me, like C. used to be. I never did that when I was living with C. , but I sure intend to keep it this way if, and when we get back together (he told me same goes for him)

I think you really should ask yourself what you want as your therapist says. The way you are acting know, you are giving your ex very mixed messages: I don't want you, but I want you to come over all the time, cause I need you to be with me. Gets a guy confused. And, under the circumstances, why should he want to change? He gets to be together with you and his daughter (maybe you even still feed him, do his laundry and sleep with him...) and he doesn't have to take any responsibility: give me a live like that any time! Yeah. Very convenient for both!

It's been on this site over and over again: if you want to change, start at your own end and start believing in your own power and strength, Maybe, just maybe he will start to change too. And Terasssa, YOU CAN DO IT. It worked for me and for so many others too. He's continuing to prod your wounded self, because you let him. Or even: he is not doing it: you are if you keep seeing him that much. Teresa, you are worth having nice people around, people who like you, who you feel oke with.

<<He said "He is loyal and never lets me down, unlike humans". Why was i so angry?? I was angry because it meant if ever we did get back together I'd be stuck with a stupid DOG!!! Yeah! A stupid DOG! >> Why? You don't have to get stuck with a dog if you don't want, even if you do get back together. He can't make you! Maybe you are not angry about the dog, but about him saying "dogs are loyal, unlike humans". I think he was manipulating and attacking you and you felt it, though maybe you did not recognize it. Could it be that you feel threatened by his getting his own home and a dog, cause it means he's setting up his own house and he will maybe spend les time with you and you feel it might be harder to get back together in that situation. I know U felt very threatened when C. talked about getting his own house. I felt he would miss me less and would become more independent. I was very scared. I don't know whether it applies..... She said to tell you that this is a good observation because we do this type of stuff all the time.

Take care, love and lots of hugs. Don't feel too lonely, we're here and we care!!! Yeah!

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Jay - just to clarify - I am happy for you that you are feeling safe and proud. I'm very sorry about your daughter's overdose, but you seem to be handling it really well.

Sometimes I scan these posts too quickly and don't read all the detail at first. I hit the send button before re-reading. oops.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear AJ:

<<Now, when I feel myself thinking he probably thinks/feels such or such, I try to stop myself and analyze whether I really have any reason for thinking it or am just making it up out of anger, insecurity, fear or wishing... How do you deal with it?>>

I think, first of all, you have to really trust your partner to tell you the truth, and create an atmosphere where the truth is appreciated and rewarded. Secondly, if you have healthy boundaries you will know that you won't accept a relationship with someone who isn't truthful, or trustable. Also, taking the time to pause before reacting and think about your intention, as well as his true intention might help. And you could try looking at situations factually (like a third person would) instead of emotionally. I think as you said it takes practice. I also think it's really important to be committed to awareness. If you slip, don't overlook the slip - go back and look at what went wrong and how you could do better.

hope that helps

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box and Dr. Irene,

Happy Birthday Astrid. Roses are Red, Violets are Blue, Trubble came home, Just for YOU. Happy Day!! You bet! Happy Birthday!

Welcome Home You Trubblesome Cat, but I'm really glad you're here as I need you. Hi Mommy2Doc!

Lynn here and Wow, what a weird one, today. My mind is made up (I think), but I would appreciate some input. I'll get into it shortly knowing me, probably long-ly).

Dr. Irene, First, an answer to your question. Why does Dan bother me in these moods? Why do I engage? I can't understand what is wrong with a one word answer. When I say "NO Problem", I mean no problem. If there was a problem I would say so. I know I should disengage. I need to learn dis engage. I used to say screw you or up your tusie, but I can't (refuse to) spend the rest of my life talking like this to someone I care for. I have a bunch of big ones for you that I'll save till last. I'd better go find her.

Dear Jay, My heart, thoughts and prayers are with you. (((HUGS)))

Dear Becky, Thank you, thank you and thank you. You know why. Hugs to you, too.

Dear Theressa, Plan B with daughter. Don't get rid of her toys. She will probably find some comfort ones now. Let her keep them. My oldest son was about 25 and rediscovered his Lego's, which I was trying to give to my grandson. He said, "mother, they're mine!" OOPS!!! So I gave them back to him and he gave them to his nephew. He thought I threw them away or gave them away. They were important.

SOS Trubble. Would you recommend Bradshaw or Pia Melody?? Maybe either one? I myself prefer Bradshaw. The first I read and still love is "Homecoming." Check with Dr. Irene though. I just like him. She says, "Whatever works for you is the one that works for you."

Dear Asha, Now it's an IFC. hehe. Cremation for me in little matchbox size boxes and sent to all my friends. You can have one, too. Scattered everywhere. I would prefer mixed with sequins and glitter, but I have to think of the environment so how about pretty colored bird seed? I love Glitz!

Dear Steve, Where were you when I needed you? I wanted you to post for me the last few days because I felt you could say easily what I was feeling. We had Beetles in our basement once and I named them John, Paul, Ringo and George. My personal favorite was just George?? All those Years Ago.

Dear Jay and AJ, Just a brief one about boundaries. Dan and I spent a lot of time in the same one. Not healthy, because when I want out I can't get out. I think I should change; I need a life too; I need bounds.

Ok Dr. Irene, Big one for me. First about with Dan needing a controlling mommy. Funny, but about 5 years ago we went to our old town for a funeral and Dan needed a haircut so he called his mother and asked her where to get one? Then he came home ticked because it was a terrible one. He was putting her ahead of you, out of guilt towards her and anger towards you. That made you feel awful. Why wouldn't it?

In defense of myself. Yes, No or maybe? Who cares, but regarding his sisters death, I've been through this numerous times with Dan. They wear me down. Of course. He has to do this one and you can't do it for him. He is dealing with it now though. He is changing his underlying thinking and examining the automatic, irrational reactions he's had around guilt and over-responsibility, and rightful resentment towards his caretaker role. I no longer cry with him, but he always seemed to get stuck and then revert back to blame. (Please bear with me. This has to do with today's therapist). The other night I poked and prodded more than I ever have. Maybe I felt safe because he had the safety of you to fall back on. What I told him was I "couldn't" take this one more time. This had to be worked on as it was dragging me down. I was glad he could share this with me, but I wasn't helping as he kept falling back. Not so today. You CAN'T help Lynn.

We went to therapy and I have a BIG problem with me now. All things for a reason and in their time, right? Dan brought his sister up and the new lady quizzed him for a half hour or more. Hooray!! On the way home I asked Dan if he ever told our old one about it? "Yes," and he broke down and cried hysterically. "Then what," I asked. Nothing. Neither one ever brought it up again. OK I'm pleased with the new one. In fact I felt a great load off of my shoulders. Good.

Problem. Buttons. Alarms and then I tried to "think" this out. Dan loves her and wants to continue. He asked me what I thought. I don't. Here's where I get myself in trouble by thinking, so I quit and went with my gut reaction. RULE #1. We were to break ALL ties with this web site and have JUST her for a therapist. She felt two would be conflicting. OK fine. My problem.... I asked her if she looked here and she didn't and didn't feel she wanted to. I suggested she look and see. NO! I told her you were in favor of us working with her and how this worked. We could pick or choose, but if we continued she wouldn't be able to see us. You two have to listen to your therapist. If Dan likes her and you don't, perhaps she should work with Dan. He has lots of issues he could use the help with.

I asked her if she looked and checked your credentials and she hadn't. If I sound defensive it's because I am! Am I off on a tangent? I don't think so. If I had a reason I'd buy into this. She couldn't give me one and I thought she was overly narrow minded. Some more, but you get the gist. Listen, each therapist works their own way. Some therapists are OK with this, others are not. It is a function of therapeutic orientation and personal style. If this site can work in conjunction with your therapist, that's fine. But, this site is no substation for real-live therapy. It is my job to direct you to listen to your therapist.

What I came up with on my own, but this is subject to change and I welcome all input and I will make my own decision...... I felt very comfortable handing Dan's sister and his issue's to her. GOOD! Get out and stay out. I want no part of this. In fact it felt great. Yes. Why not let Dan work out the PTSD stuff with her? I'm not his therapist and I don't even want to be there when they are going through this. Been there and done that and I would do it all again. It was something for a therapist (or bartender), though. I was too involved to help YES, yet the last one I did and I can't say why because now it is between Dan and her. Lynn, of course you've helped. But, it is too taxing for a loved one to do this. It will weigh you down and wear you out because your own issues will mix with your helping. Your job is not to help him, it is to love him. I am personally delighted that Dan connected with this woman. Couple's therapy essentially teases out what problems belong to which individual. They then have the ability to go fix their stuff. Stop interacting so much with his stuff. I have a feeling you are worried about losing control...

Next biggie. I've been witching about this for years and now he's back and now I don't want to. Over thinking again. I don't want any part of the co-dependency things with Dan and his mother. I want to work on couples and when they pertain to us I'm willing to go. But Dan can't work on couples issues unless he works out the mom issues. Why not let him do that. Trust me: Dan has a very real and very legitimate need to work this stuff out. It is critical and doing so will help him become your partner.

I don't like excluding you or my friends at the Cat Box. I don't like this and this doesn't feel right and my first instinct is no. Both or nothing. My boundary and here's where I'm at. OK. Sounds simple to me: He has her as an individual therapist and you come in as needed to give her information. This is really an OK thing!

Big Question. I think I'm right. Am I being radical? I don't think so. SOS SOS SOS Trubble, I need ya'. If I'm letting Dan down my first thought is tough, he can go and do it. I think it's great I don't like ultimatums and this didn't set right with me. After writing this down, it still doesn't. Amen.

Love, Hugs and a Devil's Advocate, Please,

Lynn

PS She suggested she would look at your credentials Dr. Irene. Do you want to bother? Lynn, it doesn't matter. Working here and with her would be confusing to Dan. I can't imagine why as that I would see as defending yourself and she can see them if she would look at the site index. I did suggest this by the way. She thought I should print them out. He he, I don't have a printer. If she has an email address, send her this link: http://www.drirene.com/resume.htm.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Lynn here.

I reread my post and I'm still of the same mind. Maybe it's time for Dan and I to break the Boundary umbilical cord. Let him go. I don't want to. Period. It's good for you to break it. It's not a healthy cord. Let him go. You deal with your issues around losing control of Dan. (I bet this is how Dan's mommy felt when you entered the picture!) Here's some work for you: Write about your fears and insecurities re: his having her as his own therapist...

Thanks,

Lynn who feels greatly relieved coming to a decision.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

There are several things I want to reply to; I hope I remember everything! Dr. Irene, to clarify: I think my husband doesn't want me to be upset when he is out of line because he doesn't like emotions, especially "negative" ones like anger, sorrow, or grief. I believe that he actually thinks that the emotions themselves are bad, no matter how they're expressed. Wouldn't surprise me. I'm basing this on experience: he's ridiculed me or become irritated at me when I've expressed emotion over such diverse things as turning forty (I was a little blue), the start of the ground war in the Middle East (Desert Storm--I got teary eyed) and my grandmother collapsing and later dying (I was short tempered; I snapped at him when he still couldn't understand the circumstances of her collapse after I'd explained it several times, then I was sad. He told me that instead of being sad, I should feel guilty for not seeing her more often). Your husband is over-responsible. Kind of like Dan. So typical of the angrier of the pair. He often says that there is no use feeling such and such a way if you can't do anything about a situation. He finds no use in feeling, i.e., he finds emotions a painful place to go to because of issues around guilt, shame, bashing himself, etc. he hasn't resolved. Kind of like Dan.

I also think that he doesn't want me to be upset because that helps him deny the seriousness of the situation. I've noticed that when I get really upset, he pounces on it and ridicules me. The focus is then shifted from his behavior to my "sin": being angry, crying. Allow him not to want you to be upset, and be what you are.

I cannot imagine being so detached that I'm not hurt by what he says. I take that back. He did, the other day, make ridiculing remarks about my using the internet for support and information. I felt a bit of anger, but stayed very calm. I allowed myself one remark to the effect that he seemed so threatened! But I wasn't hurt at all. I know that I'm not doing anything wrong. Now you've got it. I am benefiting a lot from this. I understand that he does feel threatened by the idea that I may be getting support, and that's what fueled the remark. In other words, I'm considering the source, as dr. I says to do. Yippeee! And have compassion for the source if you can, recognizing he is doing the best he can. But you don't have to take it as anything else other than his feeling it is about his own survival. (Even though it's really not and it's just keeping him stuck. His problem; don't make it yours.)

Still: how can one not be hurt when she is called a "leech," a "mistake," and a GDF'ing B (this last one was said shortly after being intimate)? How can you not be confused, hurt and then angry when your husband accuses you of using him, when he calls you unsupportive because you don't agree with him about something, and follows that up with "We're just incompatible. we should go our separate ways." (I've heard that since day one). He hasn't gone anywhere, has he? How about when he says "Your pea brain just can't comprehend....." I could go on for pages. Then of course, I'm "cold as ice" because I'm afraid to get too close to him. I agree that I shouldn't let the hurtful things creep into me and affect how I feel about myself. I used to do that, but not so much anymore. Instead of saying "I feel so small," I'm more likely to say, "You [husband] seem to think that I'm less important than you." He tries to deflect by saying, "Well, if you want to think that you're less important.." Brother! Just tell him to keep his opinions to himself. Basically, tell him to stop with the put-downs, but recognize where they are coming from and why. By the way, some of what he says may be stuff for you to look at, but don't worry about that just now. Disengage first.

Enough of that--moving on. Steve, I guess I probably did get the impression that you think that only the "weak" take meds for depression. I think that I'm guilty of projecting my husband's characteristics on to you a bit! You seem to reason in much the same way, and that was the point of my comparison. Even as I was making it I was thinking that it was a somewhat faulty one, but I do see similarities, mainly the anger that Dr. I mentions, also the cynicism. I think that my husband is angry at therapists for a couple of reasons: 1. We went to two a couple years apart. Each talked to him as well as me about our behavior and ways of thinking. Each talked to him about what he needed to change in order for our marriage to be better. I really do think that he was hoping the focus would be on me and what I needed to do to please him more, so he wouldn't get so defensive and angry. When that didn't happen, he stopped going. Not uncommon.

Secondly, since I've been going, I've changed in a lot of ways (tho he says I haven't That's OK.). I am beginning to understand the concept of self-respect, and for the first time in my life, I feel good about myself (at least most of the time!). Yippeee! Instead of becoming more passive and placating, I'm drawing boundaries and sticking to them even in the face of his attempts to guilt and shame me. Good! You are disengaging. I'm not perfect at this, but I'm a long way away from where I was ten years ago, or even a year ago! I think he's mad because therapy has helped me move in a direction that's not to his liking, as long as he stays in controller mode. He doesn't like his life either way. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. I'll be back to finish later.... Dr. I

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement, Steve. It does mean a lot! I think it was Asha or maybe Steve that said that it's encouraging that my H asks how to be empathetic, or what to do and say. I'm not sure that the questions are sincere. He's asked those questions our entire marriage, I give him an answer, he says he'll "try" and there it ends. I've come to feel that this is just another version of "Let's put Becky in charge of the marriage so husband can just sit back and relax." It's a set-up. If he asks for my "help" how can I dare be angry--isn't he trying to learn? I'm back. Tell him you'd love to help him, but you can't; he needs to see a therapist. If I refuse to play therapist, he throws it all back on me as in "Here I am asking for your input and you won't give it to me. there's no use trying and it's your fault!" Your reply: "Actually it will be your fault if you don't see a therapist and try to dump it on me." He's actually done that: he doesn't do what I tell him I need him to do (at his request, mind you), I interpret that as inaction on his part, he's insulted that I think he's not trying, he says "no use !I quit and it's your fault." Have you ever seen someone running a young horse on a lunge(sp) line? You attach a rope to the halter, then run the horse in a circle, usually tapping at its heels with a long stick or whip. It's part of the breaking process. I feel like a horse on a lunge line--I end up going round and round! I'm getting dizzy so I'm letting him find his own answers.

Thressa, yes, I do have difficulty seeing myself as a valid person for a lot of reasons. But as I said, that's been changing, little by little. I'm working very hard at believing the good things people tell me about myself. I think I have a touch of imposter syndrome--when you believe that you've tricked everyone into thinking that you're okay, or smart, or capable, etc. When I find that I'm going into that mode, I ask myself what that person would have to gain by lying to me. I apply logic instead of listening to the old voices, the ones that tell Becky that there's something wrong with her, that she isn't as good as everyone else. Good! Because the only thing "wrong" with Becky are those voices!

I've rambled long enough. I hope some of this makes sense. It's difficult sometimes to express myself well in this kind of forum--I get caught up in correcting typos, and avoiding hitting buttons that could wipe everything out!

Oh--a story from today's "Adventure in the junior high library." I was told that I'm nicer than the former librarian (Her last name is Blair--they called her "The Blair Witch Project"-rotten kids!) I just smiled wickedly and reminded them that the school year is young yet, and that I could get pretty mean by December if I had to. Kids that age can be a real pain, but a lot of fun, too.

Have to get out of here and prepare for tomorrow. Thanks all of you for being here and for bearing with me!

Becky

PS Trubble, why didn't you send me a postcard? Uh, uh... I guess I was just having too much fun...

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

I just read your post and WOW. It's funny, but I spent the last 3 days mildly depressed and was really thinking of you lots. Dan just read my post, too, and said it's OK if I don't go to therapy with him, he plans on continuing. Good!

I'm with you on the support. Even sometimes re-reading our own words helps, but input from others helps channel my thoughts.

Good for you and keep up the good work. The Blair Witch. I love it. Kids are so honest. Maybe Trubble spent the 20 cent postage. The little stinker.

Take care and hugs and love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Dear Asha,

After thought. I loved your post to David and your questions to Dan and the rest are great. To me, too.

Becky, I kinda quit editing too much. I was sitting here with a dictionary on my lap and going through the rules of English. I picked this up from another site, but I can spell missteak any way I feel like. This isn't an English test. Anyhow, you guys are suppose to be my friends, not the grammar police. As long as we "get it", that's the point and now that the Wayward Cat has returned he can get back to the serious editing.

Did you see my one the other day? "Hell, Lynn here." Missed the O, but the thought was spelled correctly.

Happy Asrids' Birthday,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Lynn

I really don't think your therapist was fair in making you choose. If I were in your shoes, I would find someone else, unless she decides to be more flexible on this. Would she still not accept Dan if *you* are using this forum?

If she hasn't even seen and has no interest in seeing the site, I don't think she is being fair. This wouldn't be acceptable to me personally.

I'm glad that Dan really likes her, but if he stops posting I'll really miss him here. I'm not trying to guilt him about it, I hope that whatever choice he makes is truly the highest choice for him. I'd be lying though if I said I felt really good about it. There are so few male posters here. :(

I like the "hell, Lynn here" - kinda like Dan's plan H.

I'm sorry you're feeling low.

Becky:

[how can one not be hurt when she is called a "leech," a "mistake," and a GDF'ing B (this last one was said shortly after being intimate)? etc.]

I understand what you are feeling (in fact I remember asking a similar kind of question), but if you choose to stay with him you have to accept him 'as is'. He just can't be anything else right now. *Not* accepting him doesn't help - it just adds fuel to the fire. I think when you are around him, it would help to learn to completely detach from the impact of the abusive words. And I'm not saying that's easy to do. The book I keep telling you about describes reacting to abusive comments like stopping a fuse before the bomb explodes. As you feel the effect of the words edging toward you, you make the conscious decision to *not* let the words hurt you. They have nothing to do with you and everything to do with him.

The stuff you mentioned is awful, but as long as you put up with it and engage, I doubt that he will be motivated to change. I think deep down you do have a lot of strength or you wouldn't be questioning yourself or posting to this site. It sounds like you were given a lot of those "parental voices" and the challenge is to replace them with nicer, more caring ones. I'm sending lots of positive thoughts your way. Hope it helps.

Is it Astrid's b-day? If so Happy Day!

take care

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 23, 2000

S1

Yep, it's my birthday. :) Yipppeeeee!!!! Purrrrrs and purrrrrs and kisses from *Me*

People were here this weekend, which was good. My chosen brother and his lady, and a few other of our friends. We made a nice expedition to the state park -- five adults, one six-year-old boy, and two dogs. Beautiful weather.

Work got me a cake and a card. Good of them. Mom sent a card and called, Grandma sent a card with money, Dad sent a card.

My ex responded to the letter. Fairly well, actually. Though this comment kind of weirded me out: "I doubt that I will promise anything to anyone for fear of being unable to keep my word." But he did say that he has made a conscious decision not to be intoxicated by anything while in my presence (definite progress!!), while reiterating that I can't expect him to stop entirely. Fair enough. His body, not mine. And I found this encouraging:

"I want to affect some sort of change on myself at the very least so I can be a better friend to you, after that, then we should see what lies in the future for us relationship wise I think. Right?"

Again, fair enough. I'm still thinking the eventual answer is likely to be no as far as getting back together goes. But maybe we can both learn enough from this whole mess to avoid doing this to anyone else. I think I can, at least -- what he does is up to him. :)

Good kitty for coming home, Trubble. *earscratch* *rub-against-leg*

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

Lynn here. Tough sleep last night. Lot's of thinking, but not quality thinking.

Becky, I decided about your H and the foul language after intimacy. Sounds like you were making love and he was screwing. Dan and I went through a few years of this. Not words directed at me, but I finally got the impression that he felt if he was "good in bed" I'd never leave him. Typical... I finally told him if the language he heard on XXX constituted good sex he'd have to try it with someone else. Thank Goodness he got over that!

So sad about your grandma. I'm sorry. We all seem to have ungrieved deaths in our lives. Speaking of which, Asha. You provided the last one for my friend with the "fiend." He's now in my heart where he belongs and not constantly on my mind.

These seem to have to be brought up and up until we get them resolved. About me learning to disengage. I don't wanna! My mother did this and had it down to a fine science. She totally lived her own life and did her own thing ad my dad be damned. They never got it. I've said I would rather be alone than put in 50 years like that! I need Dan to learn that he doesn't have to engage me. (OK Trubble, I hear ya'. By the way, did you borrow Daddy's belt buckle? It's MIA, too). Dan went through the martyr and theatrics the other day and then came to me with a needle and a sliver in his finger. Fix my boo boo.

Dan told me on the way home yesterday that he hoped this new therapist wouldn't be so upset about his not seeing his mother. I rechecked this last night and he said yes. She kept dwelling on hw this "should" bother him. He said she was more upset about it than he was. Doo doo doo doo, Dr. I? Stop it Lynn. We have gone over this. It was the right decision for us, even though I did it wrong. No matter who called, the decision was right. She still gets into the "I'll show him" about this. We both need to get a lot healthier before we let her back into our lives.

About our new therapist. I rehashed this until I was psycho last night. My decision stands. It may be the wrong decision for us, but it is the right decision for me. I don't think she understands what this is all about, but I don't like the judgment without giving it a chance. That is part of "Who Am I?" If she looked and thought it might interfere, I might have been ok with that, but this was so final. No, because I said so. Won't work for me. Another quality I have is not giving up on a friend. Ever. If they do me, it's their loss and I get on with life, but I never forget a good friendship and I feel that with all here (Especially Dr. Irene and Trubble). We're OK with whatever you guys do. We're glad we were able to get you two on the road. I hope Dan does go and I really think she knows her stuff, yet she's not for me. This was/is a tough one, because ........ well because. I feel like I was asked to pick sides between Dan and the group. I didn't/don't like the feeling. I do intend to call her and tell her why (If not go to the next one and do so).

Astrid, Good for you. I hope this works. If not, have the strength to leave if you can.

Theressa, I think this is a sign of attaining true intimacy. If any or all of us can work this out with our mates we will be headed the right direction.

AK, Jay and Steve, Howdy folks. Have a good day and I am thinking of all of you.

Thanks for being here just so I can hear myself think.

Much love to all,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000

S1

Hi All,

I wanted to share this: