Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

Back to Catbox 6

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

Dear All in the catbox. Love and hugs.

Dan- I just think you are amazing. You mean that you saw what was wrong and worked on it. (I had a peep at the first posts yesterday_) I only wish my H would come on board. He thinks using this site at all is abusive to him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any ideas?

Lynn and Dan you are older than me but not much.

Dr. Irene, How did you get so wise? Akasha bit me.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

Sorry, forgot to sign her name again; the above post is mine. J

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

*lightning bulb*

Just read Dr. I's question to the "Over-responsible" and was thinking how much my dad was like that. Responsible for everyone at work, responsible for family etc etc then had a heart attack at 45 (luckily he survived). I swore I wouldn't do that because I could see how it didn't help anyone (actually made everyone dependent on him, and kind of showed a lack of trust on his part). So I think I shifted my "over-responsibility" from the realm of work and children (his areas) to the area of relationships, where my dad wasn't so over-responsible. This was how I "wasn't" going to be like Dad. But I took on that trait subconsciously anyway! Boy we humans make life complicated.

I realize that I literally *have* been expecting too much from Steve. While I'm telling him that change doesn't happen overnight, any sign of him "mis-behaving" has signaled "disaster" for me. This doesn't give him a chance to learn what he needs to learn. I think we have set ourselves up for failure by expecting the relationship to resume immediately as a normal functional relationship. I think that I need to acknowledge that it simply can't be that way yet, and that's okay. What I realize is that the "distance" necessary is not to be seen as a step backwards, but a step to recovery for both of us. So that I can "lay off him" while he learns. (Thus, not calling to tell him I'm worried about his progress, which doesn't help him at all.) It's just a way for us both to feel safe right now.

I've been wanting to rush the process to fit with my "life plans" and it's a process that can't be rushed. I think one problem that we have is that physical distance which we both seem to need a lot of right now, has been seen by both of us as a negative thing - sort of a reprimand by the other. Maybe if we can see it instead, as a phase of growth it won't have all the pain and sadness attached to it. I know from my end, I am constantly suspicious of "motives" now. I'm sure this results in some misinterpretations. Perhaps I need to work on dropping this over-protectiveness and build in myself a faith that I will take care of myself. It's very hard to do right now, because I don't completely trust myself to take care of me. (I haven't in the past) If I make myself the promise that I will take care of me then maybe I will eventually know that no-one can disempower me. It sounds fairly simple, but this stuff is so engrained inside. Sometimes I don't know how to take care of me, except by being defensive, or over-protective. Also, I'm just now beginning to learn how not to take in other peoples feelings/attitudes. Dr. I, any suggestions on specific things to do to build a strong center or sense of self? I'm thinking that confidence building stuff like putting myself in unfamiliar situations, public speaking type stuff etc. might be good. Also, being around positive influences. I'm alone a lot and getting out to see people more would probably be good.

Dr I makes it seem so clear, yet without her feedback I would still be in a fog as to what was going on. I hope that once I've really "got it" to make it my goal to help educate others on these basic, very important skills that few people seem to know about or understand very well.

As for the suggestion of an anti-depressant, using drugs just doesn't feel like the right solution for me. I barely use drugs for anything and never have. I'm nervous about other effects they may have and also have a concern about dependence on them. I don't feel depressed at the moment, though I sometimes do. Something for PMS might be nice, but I also wonder if that just covers up my body's symptoms, and the symptoms are there for my body's own good i.e. showing me that something's wrong - like poor diet, not enough exercise, too much emotional stress etc. I really don't want to "cover up" my feelings. I feel that drugs could suppress my emotions and then it just seems like another form of escape. Just my thoughts.

FYI Steve is gone until Monday, so I doubt he will see the posts until at least then.

Thanks

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

Dear All,

Steve,

I think that we were both posting at the same time yesterday, because I saw your post after I had sent in mine.

I did call you a jerk, I apologize. I based that on my reading of the prior posts. As Dr Irene said no one is a jerk, they may act like it. I don't think that you are acting like it any more, although I may have given you that misconception by my post.

I do think that you are working on your Self and looking at the issues that have brought your relationship to this point. I don't believe that anyone in our position can say Behold I am healed, I was blind and now I can see". This process is a lifelong endeavor. There is no overnight cure, although many probably wish there was.

I agree with your statement "Sometimes when one feels trapped they act defensively......this is, as you know the old fight or flight mechanism in our bodies. When Lynn and I fought before, I would yell and try to make my point while shouting. No win situation. She would withdraw, no discussion, no anything.

I don't have a hang up about your grinning, I was asking about it because of the content which followed. I may have misinterpreted it because I was reading it as saying, don't take this derogatorily because I don't mean it. If grinning is a natural thing, by all means do so, the only thing that I ask is don't use it as a put down, which some people would take it as. Giving double meaning to your words.

"You have to leave on your terms not someone else's." Sometimes, leaving is a compromise, both agree to a pausing of the argument.

I have to disagree with you though, I don't believe that you are 100% wrong, it takes two to Tango, or is that Tangle? Asha is trying to fix, you want the fix, but you both can't reach the agreement that the fix comes from ourselves.

I really believe that you are looking at the issues from your past an will continue to do so. Change is uneven and sometimes the change can be different than what we want.

Asha,

"I wonder if I should post my response at all. But I don't know if that would help or hinder the process." Posting for me is helpful in that I can see what is affecting me and how I can use it to heal, so if it helps you please continue . I'm also getting help from the other members of the family.

"I want to offer input ...." To me this is putting yourself in the position of fixer. You can only improve or heal Self if Steve heals and changes. I feel that you are being unfair to the both of you as you are putting the responsibility of changing on him. You won't if he doesn't. This won't work because you have to work on your Self and Steve has to work on his Self. Your input may be taken as an attack on him thus he gets defensive and then you're off to the races again. The merry go round that he mentioned in his post.

You become co-dependant and he reacts the only way he knows how, abusively or argumentively.

You posted that the timeouts don't seem to work because you both get back into the win at all costs situation. This doesn't work, as you have found out. The thing to do is to pick a time when you both are comfortable and don't engage each other.

I think, that Steve is working on his past issues and the progress is not as fast as you may want it but you have said that there is progress. Remember we learn to walk one step at a time. You both will slip, as the earlier posts from yesterday indicated. The idea is to not let these set backs deter you from the ultimate goal, whether it's a life together (I do hope so) or not.

I am basing my observations on the situations which led Lynn and later me to this site. I am sill working on issues and will get healed. I hope that you will listen to your Self's and come to the realization that what I have posted may be true or untrue for your situations.

If I'm pushing buttons (Dr Irene's phrase) please think about them.

I just talked to Lynn and she suggested that I write this down, so I'm going to do so here. It's about my sisters' death, again. As I wrote earlier I came home from school and she was missing, I went looking for her. My dad wasn't notified until I went to the cops for help. Why? Why did my mother leave the house when she knew that he would be coming home, and leave the telling him of Sister's (her nickname) death to me? Why indeed?

Dr Irene,

I got sweaty and my stomach did a lurch while talking with Lynn and these questions. Hurtful stuff you've been protecting all your life. I also got feeling a little defensive, not about my mother but about my memories of this time. I guess that I will have to really get this out before I can be the big brother and the father.

I addressed the above to Dr Irene but if any have thoughts I'm receptive.

Thanks for the thought, but I have a long way to go. Lynn just showed me the symptoms and her post. I decided that I needed whatever help and advice that the family could give me. If your H thinks that the site is abusive to him then I feel that he has issues which he doesn't want to face. Until he does, I can't think of a way to get him to join in.

I will close with these words of "?wisdom?" if man and women thought alike there would be no differentiation between the sexes, no mystery and no wonder.

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

Ugh. I think I had some bad fish the other day. (Yes there is such a thing) either that or I caught the stomach bug that's going around. Maybe just plain stress but stress doesn't usually leave me running to the bathroom all day. I feel horrible. :(

I need to learn not to try to have rational discussions when I'm in this state. My ex wanted some company and I went over there, he sounded friendly and normal over the phone. A couple of hours after I got there, semi-out of nowhere: "I'm begging you to take me back."

*sigh* I can't. And when I tried to explain the things that would need to change for me to consider it, the mushroom cloud erupted as usual. Steve and AK sound so much like us...

I told him that I am not comfortable with his substance use, and he went on and on about how I keep calling him an addict and he's NOT an addict but obviously I'm convinced of it [well, frankly his attitude about it doesn't do much to make me think he's a responsible user -- I do believe such people exist, but he's NOT ONE OF THEM!] so anything he says won't make any difference. It is reasonable to request your partner stop using substances, especially if they are illegal.

The other thing that bothers me is he has a fairly vicious temper. He never quite crossed the line into physical abuse with me, but he went right up to it on two occasions, and on the second I almost called the police. I told him that, and he said "well, we all make mistakes when we're angry." A mistake is one thing though, being afraid for your physical safety is quite something else. And he HAS been violent with other people. He's hit his sister for insulting me, he's hit his best friend for some reason I have now forgotten, and while high he went after someone with a chair leg or something of that nature for calling him "goatf***er" repeatedly. I can understand that was annoying, but if someone hadn't pulled him off he might have killed this guy. He showed up at my house right after this (at 3 am) saying that he was dangerously psychotic and I needed to leave him. Wasn't easy to calm him down. I thought that experience might have taught him something, but a few days later he was shrugging it off and saying "well, I just won't smoke around jerks then."

We talked more about how things fell apart on vacation. I told him that one of the reasons I was so upset with him bringing the drugs there was because I was looking forward to some time away from our usual lives to try to work things out between us, and his bringing the drugs when I specifically told him not to, and lying about it, made me feel like he just didn't care.

In fact, though I didn't tell him this, if he had actually sat and thought about "OK, what's the most hurtful thing I could possibly do to Astrid?" that would have been it.

Heck, I've used the stuff in the past, and when we first got together that and my occasional nights out drinking made him uncomfortable. He was upset that my friends got me drunk on my 21st birthday! We had designated drivers, it was a weekend night, I didn't drink to the point of throwing up or passing out, but it still bothered him. What he says now about that is "well, I was a control freak back then. Now I know sometimes you have to lose control to keep control. But you probably don't understand that." (I do, better than he thinks. But I do not think it means what he thinks it means. Yes, that was a gratuitous Princess Bride reference. *smiles*)

*sigh* I feel absolutely miserable right now. Physically and in every other way. Hope you feel better soon...

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

Astrid

I hope you're feeling better soon...

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

Dr. Irene's question to the overly responsible got me thinking. I remembered that when I was young, and home sick from school, my dad would pitch a fit, and yell at my mom for letting me stay home (I suppose he did the same if my sisters stayed home, but I only remember my experience). He would accuse me of faking, and tell my mom that I was tricking her! I'd have a bad time a couple days a month, and couldn't walk let alone go to school, but he never believed that I was hurting that bad.

These early experiences must have something to do with the guilt. It's not arrogance, as in "They can't get along without me," it's "I'm faking, I'm not really that sick, I COULD drag myself in there, I don't deserve to take time off." It's good old invalidation, my dad's voice still coming through! I am suggesting arrogance because you are so guilty. Who besides the Big Guy has the power to affect lives? In your example, your not feeling well caused your father to yell at your mother - so you feel as though your mom would not have gotten yelled at had it not been for you. Well, we know this is not true. Nobody forced dad to give mom a hard time. And, if it wasn't you or your illness, your dad would just find another "excuse" to yell. In using the word "arrogance" I am hoping to help you view your over responsibility as a negative because you assume you have a Godly amount of power.

It's interesting that when my younger boy was sick and I let him stay home, my husband (his step-father) tried to control the situation by criticizing me for letting the boy lie downstairs on the couch: ("When I was home sick, I had to stay upstairs ALL DAY!") I felt the same "vibes" from him that I'd felt from my dad: "You're faking it, therefore, you should be made as uncomfortable as possible so you won't fake it again!" I didn't let him bully me; it was easier to care for my son if he was downstairs. But it was more stress for me, more reminders of how I'd failed my husband by doing things differently than he thought they should be done.

What it comes down to is this: despite years, more or less, in therapy, despite having weathered one severe depression and an anxiety disorder, despite getting myself together and going to school and graduating twice with honors, despite having raised two great kids, etc. etc., I STILL, deep down, believe that I'm a puny, insignificant nonentity! DRAT!! Why don't I believe that I deserve a day off when I'm sick? Why can't I trust my own judgment? Will I still be this way when I'm ninety? Only if you choose to be.

Becky (Pulling her hair out!)

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 14, 2000

S1

Hi all.

I wanted to thank you AJ for your insight, which I never did address.

You said: [In this phase you both need time to heal, and I think a lot of healing needs to be done on your own, without the pressure of feeling you have to come up with some sort of solution. You don't. Just detach.]

I think you hit on something when you said "solution". I'm very goal-oriented and to not have a plan that I can break down into little bits is really hard for me. I've always believed I could accomplish anything if I knew what I wanted and how to get there - well I still think I do. But the game changes when it involves other people. You can't break down their choices into little steps when you don't know what those choices will be! Even my own life will have some unexpected forks in the road. I really believe in visualization as a tool for setting goals, but when the vision isn't what I expect, I have to re-work it. I have a belief that the difference between a dream and a goal is a deadline. My vision does include a relationship, but I can't put a deadline on it, the way I can with other things. I think there is a difference between drifting through life with no plans, and going with the flow. I need to know that I am in control of my life, but that I can handle changing circumstances and be flexible.

Becky:

You are so hard on yourself!

I hate to see you so discouraged.

I believe that we are all put here on earth for a greater mission, and that some of us have a harder path than others, but it is all in the name of growth.

I know, for myself, sometimes I've questioned how I have ended up where I am, but I think I have a bigger faith that says my "circumstances" have a purpose and it's my choices within them that count (the things I do have power over). I think you are just beginning to discover the power you have within.

It's okay to be frustrated though. You are human. We all are. (Well, except Trubble, but don't tell him that. He'd be crushed. He'd also be crushed if he ever figures out how many mommys and daddys he can actually have.) If you believe that life is supposed to be perfect then you set yourself up for disaster. It's the messy stuff that helps us to grow.

take care Becky - it's kinda like the dream I had where the ominous clouds that I thought were moving in on me were actually moving away and the sky became blue and sunny - sometimes what looks disastrous can actually be something wonderful and empowering in disguise.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Hi Asha, B. here.

Your Dog & Cat joke really made me laugh, especially since it's so obviously modern English speaking...

I thought further about what I wrote, that I discovered I loved my husband no less for his "weaknesses", and came to the conclusion that it was classic co-dependent: it was perfectly OK for HIM to be human, but I did not allow the same to ME. Giggle... Now I'm trying to work on loving ME for my weaknesses, shortcomings and horrible qualities too. My husband can't get it. Whenever I tell him I don't feel lovable, how can anybody truly love me, he says: But everybody loves you!

However, he does not really love himself, either. We'll work on that... B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Dear Asha, You said my comment on looking for a solution hit on something. Then you explained how you feel. I know exactly what you mean. I too was always running around, desperately looking for a solution NOW, no time to just wait and see what would happen. I felt that if I didn't do anything, nothing would be done (typically do-dependent, as I now understand). It's not only non-productive in a lot of situations, it's very trying and frustrating as well. I used to think the same way as you (still often do). It's a very analytical, rational way of thinking, with hardly any room for feelings and the natural flow of live. Maybe that's why we are attracted to men like Steve and C.: they have a certain way of directly (re)acting to their feelings, something very intuitive, which we sort of lack(ed). When C just started looking into his problems he used to say: I need to get more rational. I think Steve has sort of the same problem (I'd appreciate your comments here Steve). We are the ones who want/need to sort thinks out, make a plan and then stick by it. They keep telling us our plans are like a cage (Steve's words) and they die within (C's words). I think you hit the nail in saying: <<I think there is a difference between drifting through life with no plans, and going with the flow. I need to know that I am in control of my life, but that I can handle changing circumstances and be flexible. This means to control yourself vs. others or situations. Then you really can handle anything!>> You and me need to learn to be more flexible I guess. Funny thing about not feeling you heave to be in control all the time is that it actually makes live easier. Let someone else do their part of the work to, sit back and see what happens. I course this doesn't go for everything, but I do feel as far as people and relationships are concerned, letting go and being flexible is by far the better solution (within boundaries of course:)) Steve and C. probably need to learn that a certain amount of rules make life easier and more comprehensive for all of us. (Jeez, don't I sound like little- miss- know -it -all :)) And, why not!

Dear J., Big welcome here also. I know it feels kind of strange at first being at this forum, but it's nice and really helpful. We're all kind of addressing the same issues and it's good to hear each others stories.

Dear Becky, don't pull out your hair: it doesn't look nice and beside it hurts! Please take care of yourself, you're worth it, even if you sometimes have a difficult time believing it. You're posting helps me and I think others as well, And know what: YOU EVEN DESERVE TWO DAYS OF WHEN YOU FEEL SICK or even if you don't feel sick , no matter what the reason.

Dear Astrid, hope you're feeling better again. If your ex says he wants you to take him back, you might consider asking him why he wants that. It might start him thinking what you really mean to him. I wonder, if and when he would behave, would stop substance abuse and would really start working on healing, would you consider taking him back?

To all, just want to fill you in on meeting C. last night. I think it went well. We talked a lot about boundaries, about rules and regulations and we did decide we both want to try to work things out together as in getting back together again, if possible. We both are very cautious and that's OK for now I think. We started of by both being very defensive, me making sarcastic remarks like: I'll just sit here close to the door, cause who knows when I ‘ll have to leave. He said: you don't have to leave, you can stay as long as you want. I said: well maybe I will want to leave. We had a hard time getting to the RULE-issue, which is one of our main problems. He stated he didn't want a contract about how things would have to be and he didn't want something like getting together every week and talk things over. (Very defensive body language). I said I didn't want to pretend nothing happened and just get on with the show. No, it would be OK to talk , but only as issues arouse. I used to get livid at things like this, but I think I realised what he meant: you can't set boundaries in advance, setting boundaries in advance is controlling and imposing rules. (Did I get this right, or did I just let C talk me into this Dr I?) We also talked about the fact that by saying I don't want you to impose rules, he is imposing the Father-of-all-rules on ME. He sort of grinned and said well oke maybe you are right there. He has a definite streak of arrogance (which funny as it may sound I rather love, though it really gets at me at times) and he used to be very very good at saying it was all my fault. I confronted him on that too and he said: I know, I still feel that way: when I am right, I am right. And if you don't challenge me, then I keep feeling I am right. Then it hit me: sure, that was part of what boundaries are about. If I don't tell him I don't agree with him, that he's hurting me, that I am not ruining his day by forgetting to put the sugar on the table, he will just presume that I agree and that it IS my fault. One more piece of the boundary puzzle. He asked me to stay, I said it was to early for me yet, and he said he understood, though he felt disappointed. He brought me back my favorite cheese and sweets from France, put on the earring I bough for him and was generally very sweet. I t felt OK, but I really wanted to get back home again, I didn't want to spent the night with him (sex or no sex), cause I felt I need to take things slowly. I just told him so and I felt so good about myself: I did not let him pressure me, I told him I had missed him also, but still needed a little distance. I am feeling a little guilty, but that's OK.

Dan, has Trubble arrived at your place yet. I am getting a bit worried about him Maybe he got stuck somewhere in a Trout farm, and lost his way. You think we should sent out a search party? Take care, just a few days left before Lynn will be returning.

Dr. I. If you want to hire me, that's OK, You won't even have to pay a fee: just pay my ticket to the States. :) (Thanks for the compliment anyway, I had a couple of good teachers here on this site, including of course yourself (Self?))

Love to you all, AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

I don't know why but the post I wrote last night didn't get through.

Dan - At least you are willing to try and that s what is precious. My H avoids all ways to look at my point of view. He has the world convinced he is the nice guy and at times even me. At least one of us is looking to change. H is very freaked by my refusing to be part of the cycle we have got in to and I am trying to stay strong.

I have taken to posting rather than losing control. Hopefully soon I will feel totally in control. Then he won't have all the control and I won't have all the emotion.......HEY folks that is what happened this morning. I kept calm and he lost it. PROGRESS Excellent! But, he'll change tactics and you'll have to continue pulling in your buttons. Actually, this is good for you even though I know you hate having to do it. and now I need to look at the awful feeling of glad revenge....NOT RIGHT. Please, no right/wrong. You feel revenge because you are very angry. Best solution: Learn the skills you need to never, ever let him get over again. He is only doing to me what I have done to him. Ugh I hate my own self righteousness but do I feel smug. You're human.

Lynn he is cleaning the kitchen floor right now. I want a cat so I can clean a cat box. He has also washed up and sorted the washing. Made our son a drink.......Guess who gets the loose in our house. (and the Hoover). This week I will wash my own floor......

A.K and Steve at least you have a dialogue on here. What I wouldn't give for that.

Love, J (Jay)

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Lyn - correction. I came back from doing the shopping to find he had the Hoover in hand.....I suppose my husband did too much housework wouldn't look so good if I went for a divorce.

Actually, I guess there was a time when I did nothing. He even might be trying but not able to express it in non control terms. I guess being gracious and saying thank you will be the best way. Yes!

I was thinking a lot on my shopping trip about how I have lost the ability to get into adult to adult interaction. Somehow H and I are in adult (him) and child (me) and I have to start being a grown up again. Yes. I think I might have set the pattern by my own insecurities by always wanting reassurance for what I did. I even used to get him to check my essays when I did my first degree. So I suppose I have to tale responsibility for not wanting an adult role when I should have taken it. I guess this is what plays right into the hands of a passive aggressive. Subconsciously I probably wanted someone to take charge, but then you change and develop as a person. He is still back 20 years ago and hasn't wanted to see that I have moved on. Hates any moving on.

It is my responsibility to myself to move on and not keep myself stuck. As from today I am going to be grown up. I've done all the going into the childhood stuff; got plenty of sympathy; I think I just maybe have been running from being a grown up for a long time.

Lyn!!!!!! HE HAS TAKEN THE HOOVER UPSTAIRS..........but there are now sweet wrappers by the Mac. Hey, nobody said he would do it as fast as you would!

I am going to finish my MA research and not ask his help once.

Dr. Irene, I'm composing my email, but things are changing so fast that I have to keep changing it. I just looked at your comment to Lyn about being strong. Yeah, I guess that is a good and productive use of anger; but I would like to stop feeling angry at all. Sorry, Trubble, it was your comment. Are you really on a MAC - great things MACS. I love mine. Do you give therapy for those majorly addicted to your site?!!!!!!!! Giggle. Trubble's adoptive daddy, my husband, has a Mac. I am Windows. We are a mixed marriage and there will be no compromise here!

Someone. what is an SO and an SOX? Not English terms. I worked out H for husband. LOL?

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Dear Asha, I was writing in my diary about what happened with C and me, and I all of a sudden realised that his learning to cope with his own problems is kind of threatening to me. Typical, you know. Good observation on your part. Tolerate it, OK? Actually I think he is doing great, all things considered. Part of me is happy about that, because I really wanted him to be able to stand on his own to feet and fight his own battles. But you know, funny thing is I feel threatened, probably because if he heals and starts ‘behaving', 1. I won't be able to blame everything on him anymore (which was subconsciously what I was still doing) and look to him for the solution; 2. I loose my control on him (which I thought I didn't want, but......). I thought maybe something like that is happening for you too: you want him to work things out, but it is scary at the same time, cause, what if he does, you'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to be with him the way he is, you can't hide behind the ‘if only he would change' anymore. So you need, maybe to subconsciously make it clear to yourself he still is the one with the problems and you are the victim: feels like a safe place to be and changing is scary, if if you want it

Just some thoughts on Sunday evening. I don't know, maybe I am rambling, but I would like to know how you feel about this.

Take care, AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Well, I'm feeling a little better this morning. Still kind of weak but at least not wearing a path between my bed and my bathroom. :)

Would I consider taking my ex back if he worked on stuff? I might consider it, but there'd have to be a lot of real change that he's made it pretty clear he isn't interested in making at this point. And I certainly have no intention of waiting around for him to change! As to why he wants me back, I questioned this and the most I could get from him was "I don't know, you just feel like home to me." Yet if he wants me back as much as he says he does, a) why is he so unwilling to work on the stuff that bothers me and b) why does he read and respond to personal ads when he's feeling depressed? Sounds more like he wants a woman and he knows I was willing once. Maybe I'm overreacting You're not. , I don't know. But I sent him an e-mail last night about this and I'll clip some of the relevant bits here:

At this point, I'm willing to upgrade chance of us eventually reconciling from "no way in hell" to "possible but highly unlikely." There are things about you that bug me. Some of those things I feel I have the right to ask/demand that you do something about if you're interested in sustaining a relationship with me. The rest, I acknowledge that I have no right to do anything beyond letting you know they bug me and then trying to find a way for them not to bug me so much.

In the first category, at this point, there are three obvious things. The biggest one is of course dishonesty. If you do something that I don't like, I might still be mad, I might even lose my temper (working on that), but it's NEVER as bad from my perspective if you're honest with me in the first place. If you continue to be dishonest with me, you run the risk of losing not only my love but also my friendship. I don't like broken promises, I don't like being lied to, and frankly I don't see why someone who loves me as much as you claim to would find it necessary to be dishonest with me. It's not one particular instance of this so much as it is the pattern. I'd rather you not promise me anything at all than hear you promise me something while wondering if this is one of the handful of promises you will keep or what excuses you might find to break this one.

The second one is the drug issue. I'm not going to rehash the question of addiction, psychological dependency, or responsible vs. irresponsible use, but I am going to say, again, that you have by your actions made it very clear that smoking pot is at this point in your life more important to you than being in a relationship with me. You have brought it into situations where it was not appropriate, you have done things under the influence that disturbed me a great deal (the night you got thrown out of the apartment across the street, the night you said we should have an orgy with [one of his male friends], the night you moved on campus and showed up here high and got REALLY persistent about wanting sex after I'd said no, which is something you just don't do sober, other stuff I'm not thinking of right now but those are the big ones), and if I object to this you say I'm being judgmental. Again I ask, if it were truly no big deal to you, and if I were truly as important to you as I once believed, why would you do something (I don't care what the something is) that upsets me so greatly? If you feel I have no right to ask this of you, that's up to you, but that also tells me that (again, leaving aside the whole question of what constitutes addiction) having a relationship with me is a lower priority in your life than smoking pot is. There is no real way around that. And yes, I am willing to turn this around and say that my sense of what's right on this issue is more important than staying with you. It took me a long time to realize that, but dealing with your sudden reversal on the topic of drug use put a severe strain on my sense of reality and dealing with what IN MY OPINION constitutes irresponsible use on your part on a continual basis is too threatening to my own mental health. And no, I don't have an easy answer to "How much is OK to use?" With the exception of the SCA event issue, I'd be equally uncomfortable with you drinking as much as you smoke pot. And I would be equally uncomfortable if you brought alcohol to a dry site unless it was well-known that the site wasn't "really" dry. So this isn't some irrational "just because it's illegal" thing with me. I don't think pot SHOULD be illegal, and you ought to know that by now. I don't think that any use of it whatsoever is inherently irresponsible. In fact, as such things go my opinions are pretty darn liberal, whether or not you believe that.

The third issue is that I'm uncomfortable with your temper. Yes, both of us have bad tempers. However, yours gets you in much more trouble. I haven't lost jobs along with my temper, or burned bridges even at jobs I hated (like you apparently did with the video store). I do not become physically violent with people, especially people smaller than me (like you did with your sister because she insulted my appearance -- I know, you say that I'm an only child so I just don't get it, but she's how much smaller than you? and you're both old enough to have ways to deal with conflict other than beating on each other). Both of us have a problem with losing it in front of other people; I'm probably worse than you in that regard. But I'm trying to get a handle on mine before it damages my life any further, and I feel like you're ignoring yours and hoping it goes away. And yes, the situation with my housemate's ex made me rather paranoid on this subject, but when I state that I am concerned about my physical safety, I expect that to be respected rather than casually dismissed. Certainly I don't expect it to be mocked, as you have done in the past, and I don't expect you to get upset if I'm jumpy. I'm naturally a jumpy person -- as we've said even my aura is ticklish. :) Mary at work came up behind me and tapped me on the shoulder and I think I was six inches out of my seat for a few seconds. When you take this as evidence that I'm afraid of you, and become angry about it, it has exactly the opposite of the result you want -- it makes me more afraid.

At a minimum, to seriously consider getting back together with you, I'd have to see those things change first and stay changed for some time. How long? I don't know. Until I was reasonably certain the changes were genuine and not merely an attempt to win me back that would last at most a month or two before it was back to same old same old. I don't know how long that would take. Even then I don't know if it would work. But it would be a point at which I would be willing to try being yours again.

So we'll see what he has to say to that. When we tried to talk about it face to face, basically he kept saying "I'm not an addict, how can you say that about me, how could I go without it for two weeks if I was addicted?" etc. Like I said, IF he was willing to change some of this stuff I'd be willing to try again, but he just hasn't shown himself to be willing. And I can't in good conscience give him one more chance when it will only hurt me more once he screws it up (which at this point I'm sure he would do). Guaranteed.

As far as I'm concerned, whether the issue is pot, porn or something entirely different that most people wouldn't think of, if one person in the relationship has said "this makes me uncomfortable" and the other continues to say "How dare you say that to me?" no real communication can take place, no compromise can be made, and there's little chance things will get better until the conversation gets more productive than that. And that's where I'm at with my ex. *shrug*

Astrid Astrid, start moving along...

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and Cat Box Family,

My two questions about the death of my sister were in a way rhetorical, as no one but my mother could answer them. I know that... My job is to get you to think think think about this stuff in new ways... And, you are.

Dear Asha,

It seems that you and I were posting at the same time yesterday and were on the same wave length. You just posted it better than I.

You said that you were very goal orientated, and when things don't go as planned, it throws you. A suggestion based on my job. We have specific targets (goals) to attain through the year but sometimes things happen that they aren't able to be accomplished the way that I had planned. I've always develop a Plan A, B, C, and H. A is my original idea, B, C, take into consideration whatever changes are made beyond my control. Plan H is Punt and to h--- with it. Whatever it takes. Remember "the best laid plans of mice and men...."

You empower others to take our power, whether it is Steve or someone else. Giving up our power is a rupture of our boundaries. We must still look to Self, and thus we are able to keep in touch with our power base.

Dear Astrid,

Hope your feeling better. I would like to ask, why do you think that your ex seems to think that no damage will come from using drugs? I have tried them although nothing harder than Hashish and did not enjoy the feeling of no control, which is how I felt. I would just sit and stare and of course munch.

You posted that your ex had gotten violent while high, this puzzles me as most heads that I have known are very anti-violent when under the influence. Unless the influence was alcohol related. I cannot partake of whiskey other than maybe one shot. I loose it.

Dear J,

You posted that your H was housecleaning, was he doing this to appease you or does he have another reason. I posted earlier that my mother would get me mad to get her house cleaned because I took my anger out on things. Could this have happened to your H when he was younger? I'm not suggesting that you are getting him angry to get your house cleaned, I'm just wondering if he has a childhood reason for doing so.

Dear Becky,

Has your H been physically abusive?

Dear AJ,

It sounds as though you and C are being very careful around each other.

You want to make sure that he isn't going to resume his past attitude and are being cautious about his actions and motives. I think.

He wants to change and is a little fearful that he might say or do something which is a slippage to his old style.

I think that both of you are on the right track, and once the old habits are broken, both your Selfs will be visible to each other.

There is a fish hatchery not 20 miles from here so it Trubble reached there, he'll have a feast like he's never had before. You mean he hasn't gotten to your home yet???

Dr Irene,

I think that I have figured out my reactions to Lynn yesterday. I slipped back to the young Danny knowing that I was going to get in trouble because I didn't defend my mother. Then the adult took over, I didn't want to look at the honest feelings which took place. I was denying my responsibility to myself. I was accepting responsibility for not being the parent again. I have said that I don't want this responsibility but I find that I slip into it. Excellent. That's what it's all about: catching yourself acting irrationally, cuz that's what you know to do, and then changing what doesn't work!

Lynn has said that my dad didn't die and leave me in charge. I agree, but old habits are hard to break. Yep.

Dear B,

I think that I can identify with your H, many times I have asked myself what ever made Lynn fall in love with me. I know that one of the reasons that I fell for her is that she can be very independent but also very dependant at the same time. I still have to love myself and I am working on it. I beat myself and that is not a sign of self love. I'm sure that there are plenty of reasons for you and your H to love each other and your Selfs. Nice!

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Okay, I feel an epic novel coming on. Forgive me for what I think is going to be a very lengthy post.

B - nice to hear from you

AJ - I feel that we have a lot in common. Corresponding with you reminds me of when I was a kid and was seeking pen pals from other countries. Will you be my pen pal? :) Well I guess all of us on this forum are pen pals with a common interest.

<<I used to think the same way as you (still often do). It's a very analytical, rational way of thinking, with hardly any room for feelings and the natural flow of live. Maybe that's why we are attracted to men like Steve and C.: they have a certain way of directly (re)acting from their feelings, something very intuitive, which we sort of lack(ed).>>

Yes I think you've hit on something here. It's so odd because my dad is a "rational, logical" guy and I've always seen myself as more right-brained and creative. But what I think it comes down to is that I'm repeating his patterns.

When I think about my childhood, I see it as pretty average, with the main dysfunction being that my dad was very over-responsible and my mom took on his feelings. (gee, I got both traits, lucky me :) My mom and dad "took care of me" so much that I don't think I gained the skills and confidence that a healthy person should have. But it was done out of love and compassion. For example, if I needed a hand with something, anything, my dad would be there in an instant. My sister and I had few household chores - my mom took care of that (and my dad). Both my mom and dad had tough childhoods. At 5 years old my dad had a "job", delivering milk for the family business. His dad was sick from war-related wounds and was unable to work for periods of time. My dad said at one point (during the worst of the family health problems) he and his brother went to live with a neighbor woman who didn't like kids much. What I'm getting at is that both my mom and dad wanted my sister and I to enjoy our childhood (probably to make up for what they lacked) and so we were given few responsibilities outside schoolwork. My dad is quite a perfectionist, and is very "security" oriented. Though I felt I was nothing like that and would never take life so seriously as he did, I suppose I still took on his traits. I think my way of "rebelling" was to be with men like, first, my ex-boyfriend, and then Steve, who like you said, re-act from their feelings, and intuition, unlike my dad. (Steve - please don't be offended by this - it's not the only reason, but I'm looking at my patterns. I hope you understand this is in no way a jab at you.)

<<I all of a sudden realised that his learning to cope with his own problems is kind of threatening to me.>>

I was thinking about my response to Steve's question about boundaries and why I re-acted so defensively. It's because I'm afraid he will interpret "boundaries" as a form of control, which was what I felt happened in the past. I think clarification about what 'boundaries' are is really important to those of us who are or have been boundary-less. For example when you said:

<<Steve and C. probably need to learn that a certain amount of rules make life easier and more comprehensive for all of us.>>

I realized that it's easy to confuse "rules" with "boundaries". I know it's all just wording, but to me there is a very big difference, though it can appear subtle. I think that "following rules" comes from the ego, while boundaries come from within (the Self). At times the 2 can be hard to distinguish. For example say I don't want to visit my mate's parents. This can be because of a "boundary" or because of a "rule" I have created. i.e. I might not want to visit his parents because I feel ill, or because I have made a previous commitment, or because I feel that my being there would be detrimental in some way (a boundary - listening to Self) OR I could refuse to visit his parents because I "know" that when I visit his parents once, he'll want me to see them every weekend (rule - give an inch and he'll take a mile). When I think about Steve discovering "boundaries" I fear that he will just have more reasons to want to control everything. I know rationally-speaking that this isn't true, but I just haven't got myself convinced of it deep down. That's OK; no reason to feel convinced just yet. Try to stop anticipating bad stuff and just observe what is.

<<you'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to be with him the way he is, you can't hide behind the ‘if only he would change' anymore.>>

I'll have to think about this. Is it that I want to mold someone into my own vision? But then, why did I choose someone who was so absolutely unwilling to be molded? My "fixing" has never worked anyway. Maybe I want to be the hero for helping him be a "better person". But I didn't really know about all the problems when we first got together, so I'm not really sure about this. I do think that really I would prefer being in a healthy relationship - me becoming healthier and my partner, also. I think I'm still defining for myself what "relationship" means. Definitely mutuality is important to me. I think though, that Steve in certain ways "takes care of me" not quite the way my parents did, but similar. If he is "in charge" then I have the permission to rely on him for certain tasks, as his "dependent". I think this may be more the issue for me. You are working on caring for yourself. And, you know what? So is Steve.

<<He has a definite streak of arrogance (which funny as it may sound I rather love, though it really gets at me at times)>>

I think we mistake 'arrogance' for confidence sometimes. Often.

Astrid - it's so funny to read your email, because it reminds me so much of me, and it's interesting to see it from an outsider's perspective. It's like "if you'd just understand you'd change". And it's probably something you've said again, and again and again. But the appeal of this guy makes it too hard to withdraw and just say "I accept you as you are. This is what I require" and let it go. It's like looking in a mirror when I read this. My ex-boyfriend (before Steve) was a bit like your guy. But I did reach a point with him of total acceptance. I knew that he was unwilling to look at certain parts of himself and after breaking up and getting back together countless times, moving in then moving out, I came to the slow realization that my feelings for him had dulled, and that I could no longer fully trust him even if he did change. I could love him, I could care about him, but I couldn't live with him. I felt so guilty letting him go, because I felt he really needed me. I would find myself, even 2 to 3 years after not having seen him at all, waking up feeling guilty that I had abandoned him. I realize that these were my own nutty thoughts and that he could have just as easily been happy as heck with life that morning, but my belief was that his life without me would be bleak. Now is that over-responsible or what? (and I don't mean that in a good way)

By the way, I'm not saying you shouldn't send him this type of email. I think sometimes you have to, just to clarify to yourself, that yes it's been said, and no he still doesn't understand, to be able to let it go. I'll be honest with you here as well. I think he is looking for a fixer, and it's probably not relevant to him whether that fixer is you or someone else (just that you're "home" to him - familiar territory, no surprises). He will eventually find someone to fill that role if he is as into avoidance as it appears.

I kept "hanging on" to the memory of my ex out of guilt and, in retrospect, my own need to fix him, until one day I gave myself permission to let him go. By the way I "let him go" internally more than a year before I met Steve.

J - If your husband is done with your place, maybe he could come over here and do some 'hoovering'. My "addiction" to this site is interfering somewhat with housework, and yard work :) Giggle! But the dust will still be there when I'm ready for it so that's okay. "sweet wrappers by the Mac." - Oh do I relate. The one that gets me most are the wads of gum that show up stuck to my daybed, my bathroom sink, my kitchen counter.. drives me crazy, *especially* when I'm PMSing!! :) (which I'm not right now by the way)

that's it for this chapter.

take care all.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Dan - we always seem to post at the same time.

I *love* plan H. Yes, this is my new plan. :)

Good advice on not letting others take our power. How do healthy people manage to live together and not allow their power to be taken on occasion? What I mean is that things can be very healthy, then suddenly one partner could take a turn and refuse to take responsibility for lets say household chores or whatever. There is just no way of ever being entirely *positive* that the person you are with will remain healthy throughout life. I guess this is where plan H comes in. Just go with the flow. Does anybody know of any good pre-marriage "questions to ask yourself"? If so, I'd be interested in seeing something like that.

take care

Asha

p.s. If Trubble's anything like my cat, he has jumped into an open car window and is in Timbuktu by now, probably having the time of his life! Oh I hope not! I'm worried about him! Dan: If he's not at your house yet, could you take a ride over to the hatchery?

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Another thought...

I think the abuse that Steve wants me to fess up to is manipulative stuff like "getting him to do things" by whining and complaining and otherwise trying to make him feel guilty. When you whine and attempt to guilt him (even though it's really his job not to let himself be manipulated), you are stepping over his boundaries because you are treating him poorly and imposing stuff on him. This is different from making a request of him - and accepting a "no" answer. It rarely gets him to do what it is I want him to do. Except that he does seem to feel guilty when I do this, so maybe it's my way of "punishing" him. Oh, Steve: Don't let yourself be guilted! What I think I have to realize is, to accept gracefully what's offered, or not let it into or otherwise affect my life. YES!!! If I know that I will accept nothing less than a relationship which requires mutuality, I won't have the need to whine and manipulate. The whining and manipulating might also have to do with my parent's previous "care-taking"; that when I'm not "taken care of" I feel like something's wrong. I need to look at this more.

Also, I will tend to blame the "little things" on him, like when something goes missing or is misplaced, I usually suspect that it's his "fault" (or at least, not MINE!). This is probably passive-aggressive stuff, and perhaps some parental stuff as well. I seem to remember my mom running all over the house in a panic when my sister lost something. My, the human comedy of it all! More excellent self-observation.

As Dr. Irene very accurately said, I feel yukky when Steve brings up my "abuse" because I feel it has been used in the past to avoid some of his own stuff. (Steve, again, no offense intended, if I sound like I'm treating you as the "subject", it's only because I'm speaking to a group and not you alone.) Let him state his feelings. Hear him; he has something valid to say whether or not he is avoiding his own stuff. If you dismiss him because you anticipate being dumped on, you miss an opportunity to self correct as well as draw together. If he is avoiding his own stuff, well, that's not a relationship that will make you happy. Just pull back.

I don't know whether in the end Steve and will be together as a couple, but I have a feeling that if we are, it will be a very positive thing, and we will know enough about our own boundaries to accept nothing less than a solid, healthy relationship, for both our sakes.

to be continued... :)

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Dear All,

I have just skimmed through the latest posts, and haven't read them carefully so I'll hold any comments until I have. I'm having a scary depression today. I wrote about it on the message board; I don't feel like repeating, so go over there and check it out if you want to. This has taken me somewhat by surprise because it's so intense. I managed to leave the house for awhile and that helped, but I'm pretty blue again. I can't stop the tears and that's what's so frightening--they just keep coming!

I know that I'm too hard on myself, but I look at it this way: at least I'm aware of it, and want to work on it. That puts me way ahead of someone else I know, who seems to want to deny that he has "problems."

I will check in later. Tomorrow is a long work day; all your strong vibes would be appreciated! (Direct them toward the mid-west; I'll get them)! Becky, I wish you would think about medication. Contrary to the opinions of many on this Board, and many elsewhere, depression is considered to be a physical illness. Just like diabetes or hypertension. Please stop making value judgment and consider treatment.

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Becky - warm vibes are headed your way.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Becky: WARM FUZZY THOUGHTS! WARM FUZZY THOUGHTS! WARM FUZZY THOUGHTS! *hug* *grin*

Same for anyone else who could use them right now.

Asha, you bring up some very good points. I feel like I *have* had this conversation hundreds of times. I guess the difference is that I'm outside of the relationship now, he's at a point where he's asking me to come back, and I've spelled out in black and white the minimum I would need for that to be worth considering from my perspective. And even if he writes back and says "you're right" that doesn't mean I'd go running right back. It means that IF he followed up on this stuff for a sufficient period of time to make me feel safe and comfortable, and IF neither of us had found another relationship more worth pursuing, I would CONSIDER taking him back.

I seriously doubt that's going to happen, but at least if he asks why, I'll be able to say "you know why" and leave it at that. Because I have TOLD him why as clearly as I know how to, the ball is now in his court. Like I said, leaving aside the whole issue of what constitutes an addiction, if he's not willing to meet my needs on some kind of minimal level, I am not willing to be in a relationship with him. End of story. I deserve better. I deserve to have my feelings and my boundaries respected. And he can turn this on its head and say I am not respecting HIS needs on the subject, but that's all the more reason for us not to be together. If I don't meet his needs, why should he be in a relationship with me, right?

What he said to me when we were writing letters in a notebook on vacation was: "I'm sorry my use of marijuana has driven a wedge between us. But I have no intention of stopping and I don't really want to cut back." HIS words. That sounds to me like he's saying that his ability to continue using is more important than the health or even the existence of our relationship. Will he admit this? No. I'm just being judgmental, in his eyes. :(

Dan, I don't get the violent bit either. In fact it disturbs me. One of my college buddies used to say "I feel safer in a room full of stoned people than I do in a room full of drunk people because the drunk people tend to get violent." But it's been my experience that recreational chemicals of whatever variety tend to bring out what's already there, which is why it worries me that he would get violent under those circumstances. It certainly doesn't make me feel safer. *shrug*

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble (wherever you are), and the rest of the family,

Dear Asha,

Yes it does seem that we post at the same time, and I seem to post at the same time as the other members of the family, i.e. I asked Astrid a question about her ex, and she more or less answered it in her post before mine showed up.

You asked a very important question about how do we know that our mates will stay healthy? We don't. There will or maybe slippage throughout our time together, and this will always be in the backs of our minds. My opinion.

Also you and AJ mentioned how C and Steve were alike and how you picked them. I think that we send out some sort of beacon which says help we need fixing, not knowing that we are the ones who have to fix. Then when your fix doesn't work the arguments start and we wonder what does she want from me. We then somehow become co-dependant on each other.

The empowerment which we have spoke of is really hard to explain, the only way I can try is to say that when we forget our boundaries and let someone hurt us then we are empowering them. When you and Steve, Lynn and I, AJ and C, Becky and her H, engage then we are empowering them. We give them the ability to hurt us and so we start to defend, and on and on and on. When you empower Steve, you are giving up some of your Self and losing some of your identity, and the same for Steve, he empowers you losing his Self and his identity. My opinion. Good opinions!

Dear Astrid,

I appreciate you posting your email to your ex, it really says a lot for you and how you are working on Self. I agree that if his pot smoking is the most important thing right now, then you have to continue as you are.

He says that you are home to him, I know that I don't necessarily look at Lynn this way, I do know that I don't consider this house a home without her, I don't know if that's what he means, if so then he should step back and reevaluate himself. I think that you are closer to your Self than I and wish you all the best. The email did answer the question which I posted to you earlier and I think that you should give yourself a pat on the back for having the courage to tell him what he is doing wrong and what he has to do to enable a life with or without you.

Dear Becky,

Validate yourself, give your fathers little voice the closet that it belongs in. When you are sick, it's OK no excuses about why you should go to work, no excuses why you shouldn't. Take care of yourself and then the rest will become a memory. It's true, it may not be a pleasant one, but it will not be an antagonistic one.

Give yourself a pat on the back, and an extra hug because you are doing so well working on Self, you have two young men who, I'm sure are appreciative of your efforts and you have achieved a goal, your degree.

I'm still fighting the demons of my past and allowing some of the old feelings in when I know that they are wrong. Not "wrong" Dan... Think: "bad thinking habit," which is what it is. "Wrong" implies moral judgment while the latter implies something you can do something about. And you can. Proof: you have! I know this as an adult but the little Danny doesn't. Yep. Takes time. He is going to have to grow up one of these days. This is one of the reasons that Lynn went to this site and now I am here also.

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 15, 2000

S1

Dear Becky,

Warm thoughts and good vibes to you

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 16, 2000

S1

Dear Becky, My post to you is on the message board. Mac froze here. Love and lots and lots of hugs today and thoughts and prayers for tomorrow too.

Dear Dan, I wish I knew the answer. His mum was ill and his dad bought a dishwasher when he was young. We are not 'allowed' to use the one I bought. Well, he doesn't have to use it, but why is he deciding what you are doing? It is now defunct anyway and H does all the washing up and complains if I do any. I suppose there could be some deep psychological connection.

I just don't know if he does it to put me down or not. I suppose he could be trying to be helpful. That may well be his intention, but he needs to recognize the effects of his "helpfulness" on you. I looked around and have to admit that the house isn't at it's best after I got ill. Before that I was just so busy. I suppose I should ignore this as a problem and just concentrate on the real difficulty of how to break the cycle of aggression. Things got ugly last night but I am feeling quite sure I am on the right track.

It even occurred to me that really I have almost all my time free of H if I want to. I do need some space so mentally I am going to take it for a while. I wish I could afford to go away.

Dear Asha,

Looking on the bright side, at least I don't get the gum!! As you say the dust will still be there......

Love to you all. I feel I am mostly so trying to get my own act together I don't have a lot to say about anyone else's situation. But I do read the posts and think about you all

Love Jay (J) :)

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 16, 2000

S1

Dear Asha, (This will be a long post, skip what you don't want to read....:))

I'd love to be you pen pal. How exciting to have a pen pal in the States :). By the way, I think you're right, all of us are sort of pen pals here and I really love it. What part of the world are you from AJ?

I've been discussing the rules/boundaries issue with a couple of friends here and we sort of came to the conclusion that rules have something to do with authority and that's probably why some people get very upset by them. Rules have a definite 'should' feeling about them. I never realized this before I it makes C's reactions a lot easier to understand. Especially if I take into account that he really, really hates rules (authority-problem dating back form his youth). So, as long as I don't make it sound as a rule, it's OK. And I think he is actually right about this (however hard to admit). In a normal adult relationship between equals, there is no room for rules. You can come to agreements, you can set boundaries, but rules are not OK, I guess . I am not sure about rules coming from the Ego and boundaries coming from the Self, but I do feel there's a definite wish to control in imposing rules, which would make it an Ego-thing. As for the example you gave, I think that saying "I can't (won't) go THIS TIME because....." could be a healthy boundary as long as the reason for not wanting to go is genuine (e.g. not out of spite or to punish etc.) Saying "I NEVER want to go because..... " is a rule I think. Absolutes such as "never", "always" etc. imply irrational thinking because very few absolutes are true.

I am really interested in everybody's input on this issue. I think it's something that confuses a lot of us co-dependents, because we simply don't have a clear view of what boundaries are. Think about your boundaries as your conscious choice and control over YOU.

<<you'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to be with him the way he is, you can't hide behind the 'if only he would change' anymore.>>

What I was trying to say was that its maybe like living with an alcoholic: you think, if he sobers up, everything will be OK (Not my own experience, but Beatty points it out again and again and says it goes for living with guys/gals with any major problem: it's typically co-dependent behaviour). But, once he starts to sober up, it may scare the hell out of you because then you have to really take your own responsibility for what the relationship is like and if you want in or out. No hiding any more, no postponing, you'll have to choose and you have to look at your own motives for going or staying. Yes. It may sound as an attack, as if you wouldn't be willing to take your own responsibility, but please don't take it that way. I'm writing this, because I feel this is what is sort of happening to me. I wanted him to be less dependent, less passive-aggressive and now that he's doing it, I can't put the blame on him if the relationship is not working out the way I would want it. At least not entirely.

<<I don't know whether in the end Steve and will be together as a couple, but I have a feeling that if we are, it will be a very positive thing, and we will know enough about our own boundaries to accept nothing less than a solid, healthy relationship, for both our sakes.>>

That's just how C. and I both feel and I think that's the reason why we try to work things out. We both feel there's some magic between us, something, may dating back from other lives, unfinished business, who can tell. Maybe this is just being co-dependent. I don't think so. Codependent and interdependent people feel like this. Perhaps semantics get in the way... I've read several times that feeling the other is very special is a co-dependent thing. But I would not want to be with someone that was not special for me, and who didn't think I was special too.

Dear Becky, lots of love, energy and good feelings coming you're way (and Becky, if you want I'll lend you one of my cats, their great for hugging :)). Yeah! Please take care of yourself. I read your post about your depression. I know the feeling of just not being able to stop crying. Medicine will help you get over the worst of it, and at least makes you feel stronger to tackle your problems. When I was feeling like that I took Remeron (don't know whether that's available in the States) for a few weeks and it really helped me back on my feet again. Please consider it. Is there any way you might take a long weekend to go some place nice and quiet? Stay with friends or family maybe? And if your H. can't be compassionate, please find a good friend who will (I don't mean as in partner). You need someone to listen, to hug you and say it's okay to cry and to be there for you. Cyberhugs are great, but not enough.

Dear Jay, You did say something about your H. being the adult in the situation and you acting/feeling like the child and that you needed to grow up. Can you explain a little more about that. From your post I am not clear about what exactly the abusive circle is that you are talking about. What does you H. do, what do you and where do you feel the problems come from. I'd like to know if you're willing to tell.

Dear Dan, You're right, C. and I are very careful around each other, we don't want to hurt each other or ourselves again, and we don't want to give each other or ourselves false hope. I asked C.: "How will we proceed from here" and he answered "The right way". "But what will we do", "The right thing" We both want to do it right, but we'll have to find out what exactly "right" is and keep identifying what doesn't feel right and talk about it. I feel oke about it, rather cautious and not quite sure which way to go, and how to do things, but oke anyway. The most important thing is that I feel a genuine feeling of good will and tolerance for each others mistakes in both of us. Good! I go with plan H for now, just see what will happen, trust in that what needs to be, will be and try not to worry over much.

He, if Trubble doesn't show up, we might have to find another cat to take his place, though of course it will be very hard on all of us, I am sure. (Hear that Trubble? Just a little manipulating here .....) Manipulate all you want AJ. I'm worried about him... I'm ready to guilt him home at this point!

Love to all, AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 16, 2000

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Dr. Irene

Don't worry about Trubble coming back. You just have to shake his food bowl and I promise, he'll come running (like my cat does).

Maybe you could explain one of my cat's "misbehaviors". She leads me to her food bowl and when I get there, I find out that it's still full. When I pretend to fill it up, she is happy and leaves me alone. Is this co-dependent behavior? Is she trying to punish me for her dependency on me for food, by exercising her control over me? :) I think you should take a look here!

BTW, she was found frozen under a truck when she was less than a year old, before I adopted her, several years ago. Poor little thing. Sniff sniff...

AJ, I think I know what you are saying about taking your own responsibility for your end of the relationship, once your partner is in recovery. I feel that this was the "lesson" of my previous relationship, before Steve. I realized that when we broke up (which happened several times) this was not my boyfriend's "fault" for having problems, that my choice to continue in an obviously dysfunctional relationship was my responsibility - no-one to "blame", but me. I feel that I do take responsibility now for my choices and my mistakes in my current relationship, that is when I realize my own "misbehaviors". (If you aren't aware of them, or don't see them as misbehaviors, you can't own up to them.) I don't take your comments as an attack at all, I think it is excellent advice. Yes.

I think what I have to look at is why I would want to "fix" anyone in the first place. I think that my "fix-it" mentality is deeply engrained and that I used to see it as a positive attribute. Exactly. I think that what I need to learn is how I can really help in the highest way. There are always people who want fixing, and for me the test is to know how best I can *really* help, and I think that is about knowing when my actions/input enhance someone's potential, and when I am only acting as a crutch, which is preventing that person from moving ahead on their own. Stephen Covey writes about treating people for their potential; i.e. not seeing people for their weaknesses, and not treating them like "weak" people, who need your help. This encourages people to better look after themselves.

Just got off the phone with Steve. I feel good about our conversation.

I am so thankful for this site and how it's impacted my life. I realized this weekend that normally I would have been upset all weekend because Steve left on his trip and we weren't on good terms. But I was able to detach from that, deal with my own stuff and let "his" stuff be "his" stuff. Yippeee! Doing so also gives Steve the space to stay where he needs to be - and he won't get a hard time about it when he gets back. feel like the best me has a chance to make its appearance, now that I'm not trying to fit into what I thought was Steve's vision of me. (See how And, when he gets back to find your best You, he gets the opportunity to enjoy you. Win-win. complicated it gets - before I spent my energy analyzing what Steve wanted from me and trying to fit into that role. how unproductive.)

hugs

Asha

p.s. If I'm really a vampire, then why do I like garlic so much? Am I in denial? You must be a rebellious vampire.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 16, 2000

S1

Dear everyone,

Made it to work--hooray! I have a few things to do to prepare for tomorrow, then it's early to bed.

I'm not against medication for depression; I was on it for a year in the '80's and it did help, but I remember how fuzzy and shakey I was for awhile and it really bothered me. At the time my younger son was only 2 and I had a rough time taking care of him every morning until the effects wore off. After I got through that episode, I promised myself that I'd never get that bad again. I'm not that bad yet, but if I'm still like this in a week, I'll have to face it and get some help. So don't worry--I will get meds if I need to! Great; you may need to and, if so, there are better drugs now.

I know that my mind and body are tired. I am so hurt and angry but where to go with it? I want to give up! I mean give up completely. But there are reasons why I can't leave right now, and I feel that I'm just treading water, and that's frustrating! I've made a list of little things I can do, such as save money, but that gets discouraging because I make so little right now. My parents plan to give my sisters and me part of an inheritance from my great uncle, probably about 1000.00. When they've done this before, I've put part into our joint savings, and part toward my college loan. I'm considering asking them to hold onto it for me so I can have a nest egg that he can't touch in the event of a separation or divorce. What do you think? Is that too sneaky? I'm just trying to help myself feel safe; I'm trying to find places where I have some control. Not sneaky at all. Just Smart with a Capitol S. Stop being so guilty!

I understand that he is lashing out at me because he's scared: for us to have a genuinely good marriage, we will both have to make changes, and I don't believe he wants that. I truly believe that he wants a controller/co-dependent relationship, and he's mad as heck at me because I don't. He wants things to be "better" without having to go through the painful hard work, and he's throwing a hissy fit because deep down, he knows that isn't possible. I'm weary of being the target of his hissy fit. Good.

About all I can think about the last couple of days is how much I want to be loved and respected, treated with honor. He can be so mean! It amazes me how anyone can be so flat-out mean! Yuk. And you wonder why you are depressed...

Thanks everyone for your good thoughts. I really did feel those warm fuzzies all day! Isn't it funny: we could walk past each other on the street and never know it, yet we're friends. And although the "bond" is centered on one issue, I have the feeling we'd all have other more positive things in common, too.

Trubble, tuna and noodles tonight? Or maybe noodles and trout? (Shudder!) Giggle! By the way, still no Trubble... I've notified the authorities. He is officially missing. Could he be on his way to your house?

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 16, 2000

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Yeah, what's up with that, Becky? They do indeed seem to want the benefits without doing the work.

As for me, I'll do my work if he does his. Wait, I'll do my work anyway. But I definitely won't go back to him unless he does his work, and I might not even then. But if he wants his chances to go from "never" to "maybe" he'd better do his work. I can do my work with him or without him.

Frankly, at this point I think I'd RATHER do it without him. He'd just be a distraction. A painful one.

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 16, 2000

S1

Astrid,

Amen, ~~Girl~~ child! I am ~~woman~~ human, hear me roar!

Becky Just some PC stuff. Don't mind me.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene and the rest of the family,

Still no sign of Trubble so I'll run by the hatchery tomorrow after work. He should be easy to find, I'll just look for a fat cat with a smile while licking his chops. Thanks Dan.

Just got a call from Lynn, she sends her love, she is now out of the big city, into the country at her sons house listening to the coyotes. :)

Dear Becky,

Please hang in there, you can work it out for yourself and Self. You posted to Astrid " I am woman, hear me roar." Say this to yourself every morning, validate yourself in this way! :) What a ~~guy~~ human!

You must be showing some improvement with the working on Self or your H wouldn't be behaving as he is. I think that he is feeling that his way isn't working and you are looking for something that he is unable to give right now. He has to face himself, as I did, then perhaps things will improve for both of you.

One way other than having your parents hold on to the money is to get a savings bond with your son as either primary or co-owner and you as the other party. Then you'll have the start of a nest egg when and if you may need it. I don't feel that this is betraying your H as you are providing for your son and his future. Do this only if you feel comfortable with it though.

I kind of know what you must feel about meds, because I hate to take them also. After my back surgery, the surgeon prescribed muscle relaxers and pain killers but I got off them as quick as I could. I don't even take aspirin for a headache unless it really feels like I'm losing my head. After saying this, I am going to say that Dr Irene is right. You may need them for your depression, and who knows with the new medications that they have out now, you may not suffer side effects.

Dear Astrid,

That's a ~~girl~~ person, You are right you don't need him to work on his stuff for you to work on yours.

I wonder could you possibly send some some of that wisdom to someone who's older, but not necessarily wiser?:)

Dear J,

Your story of your husband and the dishwasher, reminds me of what my dad said, when one was suggested to him. I have a perfectly good one that doesn't use electricity. Guess who? Yes, it was me and boy did I hate it. I don't mind it now though, I think it's because it's not expected of me by Lynn.

Your H is having a problem with you working on your Self, because it shows that you are starting to get your boundaries in order and he's possibly very uncomfortable with it.

I haven't forgotten the rest but it's late and work tomorrow. I still have to feed the cats, fish, birds and let the dogs out before turning in.

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000

S1

Dear all,

Talk about blowing it this morning. But I suppose if I share it here it will explain the abuse cycle as AJ wanted. I think t started last night. I got really fed up with my rebellious 16 year old who wanted to meet me for a drink but then spent the evening abusing me verbally to the point that I have decided on no contact. H supports her against me and won't take any parental authority at all. He basically hangs on her every word and I suspect has deliberately turned her against me. She certainly has huge control issues and he has even condoned her physical violence towards me (which is one of the reasons that she can't be at home). This is incredibly sad...

I came home really upset and just cried my heart out. Ignored as usual by H. This morning I got up to find a tent had appeared in the bedroom overnight and removed it. It doesn't have to be in the bedroom and he hasn't been bothered by it's whereabouts for 3 months. He has to have put this there after I was asleep last night. Then I came down to find all the newspapers I had put into a black plastic sack emptied out over a box n the kitchen with a note abut recycling. I blew up and got angry. He derides me and we are back in the cycle. He baited and baited - and you finally bit. You let him provoke you. Then you look like the nut. If I could only ignore things and not react ~~he wouldn't get the payoff~~, I would feel much better about myself in the end; that I am above this sillyness. He has also reduced the housekeeping. I will have my revenge on that by letting him buy more of his own food! And the sand box fight continues. No typo. Sand box because you two are acting like two year olds throwing sand in each other's faces.

Some days I just think I am this awful failure of a person for reacting and I should be stronger. STOP! Not allowed! Think: I need to improve my anger management skills. Next time he baits me to the point of blowing up, I will go take a walk, jog, swim, etc. I will even hop in place if I have to. And, I won't open my mouth until I'm cool and I've thought about how to handle this. I think I should leave some days, but what about our son. I suppose whichever way round he is already hurt and I really worry about the male role model he is getting. Mum is an idiot is the message he gets reinforced. It's happened with your daughter. Don't repeat it with your son.

I guess after feeling strong for a few days I am down as I feel a failure again. You may need an antidepressant too - to give you the strength to control yourself and/or leave. I can't see it as o.k to argue so I have to be. STOP! You have poor self control skills. You are probably also depressed, making everything harder. See the difference?

Sorry, feeling down this morning and needing friends.

Hope others are having a better day. I am off to the doctor's to show him I am still well in a minute. Guess some days you just have to pick yourself up by the scruff of the neck. (Hope no one does that to you Trubble! Not since you were a kitten anyway...) Oh, he'll be picked up by his little scruff alright...

Hope its a better day today, Becky. Love. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000

S1

Hi Cat family,

Sorry I haven't posted for a bit!!! I've been poorly, (RUN DOWN, felt like a truck went over me) OH BOY!!! Oh well, I am feeling a lot better today. Good!

So much has happened to me in the last week I want to share. So here goes.

I went out on Friday 6/10 I think it was, was having a great time, then a guy smiled at me, he was watching me for a long time apparently he tells me. Then he came over and asked me would I like a drink so I said "Okay". He chatted though I couldn't hear him so well over the music, I told him this, as I wouldn't like him to be chatting and me ignoring him. Anyway, as I drank a little more, we ended up on the dance floor, and then ended up kissing, like I never kissed before, no one ever before was so taken over by me. He asked me lots of about ME, he was interested in ME. My ex never asked about me, it was always about him. Anyway, he was on a business trip and so he was staying in a nearby hotel. He lives about 1 hours drive from my house. He was with his work colleagues,

Anyway one of his colleagues turned to us and said "Hey do you want me to bunk in with xxxx, so you and Theressa can come back and stay in your room." I cut in and said "No, that won't be necessary, I won't be going back to anyone's hotel room. I'm not that sort of girl". The guy I was with smiled and said "it's okay". I said "yeah it sure is okay". Anyway we danced some more, then later me and my pals got a cab and the guys followed. I never expected him to come to my pal's house. Anyway when we arrived back at my pals house I had sobered up. YIKKKEEES!!! I thought, as he spoke to me and was so interested in me. I thought YIKKKEES this is far too soon to be getting serious with anyone, and I started to push him away. VERY much in the way my ex pushed me away. It was as if with this guy I was my ex and he was me. IS THIS MEANT TO HAPPEN???? Nothing's happened yet! I think he came on too strong. Too much interest, and I don't imply that you don't deserve it. But he doesn't know you well enough to know you deserve it yet. But, I'm glad he gave you a needed boost.

Anyway not long after this guy left in a cab, we swapped numbers. I was so unsure, the next day I didn't ring him, though on Sunday I did, it was so exciting. THEN my ex rang and left me a message to ring him. LIKE a good CO-DEPENDENT I rang him straight away. It was my ex's birthday and lots of us ended up going out. I KNOW, maybe I shouldn't have!!!!

Anyway I had a fab night out but my ex didn't; he looked miserable and left early, I carried on partying. Then when we left I ended up staying at my ex's sisters house, when I got home in the morning, the Niagra falls happened. He'd been at my place last night when I was staying at his sister's house. He'd left me a note and cut into pieces the birthday gift I had given him. The note read, "My life is very different than yours Theressa, you'll never understand how I feel, you can't, its not your fault. I've always only had me, and looked after me. All my life I've had no one but myself. I don't understand me, so I sure don't understand you. Theressa after 7 years. GOOD BYE FOREVER!!! Love xxxxx PS (Don't call me)." Yuk. You need him like you need a hole in the head.

I never cried so much in all my life, all day I cried and sobbed. Then I went to my therapy session and do you know my therapist said Terrific, that Terrific, I said "What, I cried a whole day and my world is a mess and falling apart and you say that terrific, I don't understand." I read out the letter in therapy. I said "Do you know what is most hard for me, Ron, its that I can't help him, I can't change his past, I can't protect him, I just can't do any more for him. I hate his mother, she did this to him, I can't pay for her mistakes, I won't, why should I? I mean she messed up not me. I mean I am sure to fail at an impossible task or trying to undo someone else's mistakes".

He said "Yipppppeeee!!" This is profound!!!! This is what I've been waiting for, I saw your pain for so long and YET you just couldn't see that you caused some of this pain yourself by trying to do what is impossible. Yipppeeee!

Though on Tuesday my ex was back. I was shocked, I let him in my house. I couldn't understand why he came back. We had a long chat, I told him about a neighbour who'd been through the same as him. I told him that she worked on her past rejections and healed herself, I asked him wasn't he angry with his mom for leaving him. He then told me that he knew we had to live apart, and work on ourselves before we'd ever be able to work on our relationship. I didn't say anything to this. Then I said "I had to work on me and didn't know what was gonna happen in the future."

YOU all see he makes me laugh, like no one else does!!! (EVERYONE HAS GOOD QUALITIES Don't they?) I like doing the family stuff like going to eat as a family with our daughter. I don't see the harm here!!! Isn't it true that its hard to break free completely all at once????

My therapist said everything happens when its meant to, if you don't fully feel like letting go all at once, that's up to you!!! Smart shrink.

He asked me last night what did I think had changed since I left? I said "I feel empowered more, I can stand up for myself and set boundaries, I can be more honest with my ex. I feel more in control of me."

Every now and then though he has a mini tantrum, I ignore it!!! Though they bother me, since he says things to our daughter, like: "One day you will grow up and be able to come and live with me, away from the woman who is defensive and has an attitude". Yuk.

Dr Irene how can I help my daughter deal with this breakup???? Well, like Ron said...

She is throwing tantrums a lot lately. She answers back a lot!! She rebels against what I am telling her to do!!! I know she is hurt but how can I make this less painful for her??? Pain in inevitable. Suffering is optional. Don't try to protect your child from pain, but do try to protect her from suffering. The best way I know how to do that is not to suffer yourself...

I guess this is better than keeping her in the crazy house we lived in 10 weeks ago but I am unsure how to handle her going through all this hurt???

FURTHER HAS ANYONE DONE INNER CHILD WORK????? Can you tell me how this works, I know you discuss the past, though how can buried things come out????

Anyway glad to be back guys and gals!!! And Trubble, and Dr Irene, HI TO YA ALL!!!!!

I did go and get some St John's Wort, not sure what its doing for me, don't really know what to expect????? Give it a few weeks. See if you cry less, if things bug you less. Kind of like losing PMS...

Speak to you all soon, back well and living Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000

S1

HI DR IRENE,

A MAC is a long waterproof coat!!!!

(THIS IS A WORD I USED A WEEK AGO BEFORE I GOT ILL ON ONE OF MY POSTS!!!!)

Thanks Theressa Giggle!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. I and 2x B and J and 2xD and 2xA and S and T and Tr. (did I forget anyone?)

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I do want to ask your input on something very important to me. C. and I talked (or rather mailed) about rules and boundaries again and he says he hates rules cause they are laws and can't be changed and the whole world in in constant change anyway. Boundaries and rules are two very different things... I have a big problem with this, but I am not sure it's mine or his. I somehow am very very afraid of change (even changes I perceive as good scare me very much) So if he says a simple truth like that, I feel he is sort of undermining my security. He can't undermine your security. Only you can do that. Let him have his opinions. He gave an example of changing as in: I never buy flowers for my self, but who knows, maybe I will next week.

Why do I feel so threatened by this? I think part of this is about feeling that when he says something like this I feel he also says that he cannot be sure he will be with me forever and that's scary, even though rationally I know quite well that you cannot promise something like that: you ,may die or whatever. You hit it on the head. I also know that he used to promise me he would always be there for me and that he knew everything would be all right. I didn't believe him then either. Maybe you shouldn't believe him. He still says he wants to try for a lifetime together anyway. So I think it has something to do with me No. It only has to do with HIM> , but I just don't get it and I have no idea how to handle it. I know I handled it all wrong in the past: I used to get very possessive and controlling and that constantly backfired. I do want to find another way to deal with this, but I haven't a clue where to start!! Just do nothing. Let him be however he is; accept how he is being whether you like it or not. You can state your opinion, but only state it once or twice. Then drop it.

Any suggestions will be very very welcome!!

Sorry I don't have time now the react to your posts. So just a quick: hope you are all OK and that J, Becky and Astrid are feeling better. Dan, did you find Trubble? And Dr. I, aren't you working too hard? No. That's why it took so long to reply! Lots of love to all of you, AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2000

S1

Dear all, Am I nuts or coping? I agreed to talk for 15 minutes which ended with me saying how I felt about the housework. I pointed out that I would like to do turn and turn about re the washing up and loos. What is "loos?" H's view was there was 'other' housework I could do. Instead of agreeing to turn and turn about, he has now said he is going to clean the loos as well! If there wasn't a more serious point that he is probably doing this as yet another way of being controlling I would be laughing all night!

More seriously, this is what I mean about the adult / child interaction. I did a course in transactional analysis a while back and the basic thing seemed to be about if you treat someone in an adult way they will treat you as an adult back, but if you respond in a childish way, then they will respond in the mode of an adult talking to a child and treat you as if they are the parent.

What H was doing to me just then was opting out, Rather than respond to me as an equal, he was giving a childish response. "I will do anything rather