Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

back to cat box 5

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

I will bring back presents for Trubble. I'm holding you to that! I'm switching to Auntie Mame for a week and my grandson and I are going to watch Football! Rah! Rah! Yea! Then I'm bringing him back to his home and the rest of the family is going to have an early Christmas/Thanksgiving. Log on, I already threatened to be giving the come hither to borrow one. I'd best try a little restraint. Not easy for me.

What do you mean mistake? Huh? I loved it! Don't you want it known here? If not I'll take it to my Tombstone and have "that" inscribed on it! Love, Lynn And Thank you.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

Greetings Gang. This is Trubble and the Doc. Just a note to let you know that the "regular" computer is at Dell for repair and the back-up just crashed. See you guys in about a week or so. Hopefully less. You're on your own!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

Dear Family Members,

First off, a little comic relief. As I was re reading the posts, Lynn asked if she could help. I said no thanks. She got a piece of duct tape, cut a hole in it (for her cigarette) and placed it over her mouth. We both roared.

I just finished getting her suitcase ready for her trip. I had to use the duct tape to close it. If we ever traveled and used proper suitcases, there would be a weather change to beat all changes.

To Asha,

Thank you for your concern, and thank Steve, no I'll thank him myself.

I am happy that things are working for you both, and I for see a very probable happy ending for you both. Enjoy your Thanksgiving, I'm sure that your parents will be glad to see you both.

I also concur that the terms abuse and victim raise a fear and bad images to the uninformed public. I always felt pity for the victim and malice for the abuser. Now though, I realize that, speaking as the abuser, that I held the wrong connotation. When the shoe fits, it's not a very pleasant feeling. (unless you're Cinderella, I'm not). You didn't pick your biology and you didn't pick your family of origin. You were a kid, helpless but to take what you got... Every abused adult was once an abused child... You learned to block it out - to survive.

I agree with your thought on power and pain and would like to add this to it, we not only give pain the power to hurt us, but we also give it to those who would inflict it, intentionally or not. Lynn and I did this with my mother, we gave her supreme power. Me because, I've done it all my life, and Lynn because she was my mother. Mom ate it up.

To Steve,

Thank you for your concern. I think that I can speak for everyone here when I say that we harbor no ill will toward you. We are happy that you have posted and look forward to more.

Standing back and looking at yourself, or looking at yourself separate from your body, is the easy part. It will get harder, and then easier. Like crossing a stream, going from land stepping on slippery stones, (we will slip, guaranteed) then to solid ground again. The hard part about slipping is that you can feel it happening but there is no way to stop. Look past it, and go on from there. The sensations that you spoke of will become emotions, as I look into my childhood, I can feel both the emotions from that time and the emotions that I feel now. I also find myself not only feeling these emotions but showing them as well. Becky's' post last night for example. You are identifying the grief from way back. Identify it well. That will make it easier to put it back there, where it belongs, the next time something kicks it up.

Dear Becky,

I am glad that you are fine today. Let's you and I make a pact, I won't feel bad because of your posting that you are sad and vice versa. That is neither one of us will beat themselves up for the feelings of the other. Hallelujia! I guess that means each of you is allowed to feel however each of you feel despite what anybody else feels... Hmmmm. Sounds good to me!

Our old therapist had me go back to when I was a kid, and let young Danny know that there was someone to take care of him. I chose the 9 year old Danny since that is the time that distinctly stays in my mind. I went by Danny back then. It was starting to help, but me in my infinite wisdom felt that things were going good between Lynn and I so I stopped. So please do try it, the results can be uplifting.

I can associate about what you said of others knowing, it was (for me) like Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter, imprinted on the forehead.

In one of my posts to you last night, I allowed you, wrong choice of words, I surely didn't let you, who am I to permit you. I guess that this shows how upset that I became after reading your post.

Dear Dr Irene and Trubble,

You don't have to tell me about beating myself up, I did another good job of it last night, making myself responsible for Becky's feelings. Great! The more you see yourself doing it, the quicker you will become at stopping it! I knew last night that I was doing it, but there was just no denying it. Reading the posts today, I saw just what you have been telling me. My following post might explain what I was feeling, and why I was feeling it, because of the close association of Becky's and my experience with the belt.

Trubble, I fooled LOCO last night, he thought that he was getting salmon and got chicken instead. He purred his thanks to me. LOCO's lying because he doesn't want you to get mad. He's a codependent cat!

Dear Lynn,

Thank You, Thank You, for being there for me last night and Talking with me about my being upset, and convincing me that I should post it to better understand what I was not facing. I Love You.

Theressa, Astrid I missed posting to you but will make up for it next.

6 pages, maybe we should be called the Chatty Cats.

Hugs for All

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

hehe, OK guys, who broke the computer?? Not us. We're only on page 6. Doc, we're the intense therapy group. Hurry back we miss you already. We're back!

Trubble, I saw you, you ate the mouse, didn't you? YUM...

Lynn and this is my final goodbye, I think......

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

Bad things happening here, folks. Very bad things.

I can't talk long right now but any hugs and happy thoughts and kitty snuggles would be WELL appreciated. *sigh*

-Astrid the very worried.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

How are we going to work this? The first one who posts is "Doc for the Day" ???

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

Astrid,

(((Hugs))) Prayers & lots of Love.

HUGE Embraces, Best Wishes

Lyn & Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 03, 2000

S1

I suppose I should explain a little more...

The guy who ODd is out of the hospital and has been for a while. I apparently found out about it after the fact. Of course, it apparently hasn't stopped him from doing drugs. Unfortunately. :(

The other bad thing that is happening: I'm on AIM with my ex right now (no, that's not it, we're civil to friendly by now), and apparently just missed our mutual friend (that's not it either, well not entirely).

Apparently, one of their friends (someone I haven't met yet but have heard lots about and want to get to know) just attempted suicide. This is not going to be good. And I can't call people at this hour. I worry. Not really entirely my place, but I worry nonetheless. :(

I'm going to try to stay online in case my friend comes back onto AIM and needs anything, but I eventually have to work and sleep, and if I'm scarce for a few days it might be due to playing crisis hotline with folks here (something I tend to end up doing quite frequently).

I know, I worry too much. And I'm overprotective of people I'm close to. But this worries me. *sigh*

Astrid Dear Astrid, Your friends are taking up too much space in your head. That is room that should be delegated to the Self...

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000

S1

Hi Everyone, (TRUBBLE INCLUDED)

Thanks so much for the welcome!!! Well you all seem SMART here, so maybe I can join in this wonderful growth going on here.

Now you asked LYNN about me. Here goes: I look to meet people, I read stacks, and love learning now I've got NEARLY past my defensiveness THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL LADY on this site, Yes we know her well (Dr I give her a large cheer!!!) Aw shucks... My problem is I've only just cottoned on to SMART selfishness. Not sure if you know what I mean but if you don't here goes my interpretation. In every action or interaction, we get some satisfaction from in some way a PAYOFF. We need to decipher what the payoff is for our behaviour. An interesting way to look at it...

I used to change the way I acted in public to be LIKED, I thought you had to attract people actively, I never knew you could just be you and attract some of the people some of the time, COS you can't attract all of the people all of the time, so why try!! My ex was a big time critic, he still is!!! Not just with me, with himself, our daughter, anyone who lives and breathes. (His childhood categorized by shoulds.) Sad...

My friend when I was 7 years old, she had a big sister, brother, I didn't; I was the oldest of three girls, am the oldest!!! My friend had the latest fashion clothes money could buy, she was a bully, don't know why really!! or rather I do: she wasn't so smart academically so she tried to make up for it by looking pretty and showing me who was boss. I cringe when I think back to those days she'd say, "Do this, or do that or else, if you tell my mom I'll beat you up on Monday". She was a good fighter, I never was. I didn't like hurting people!!! I still can't stand bullies, if I see them on the NEWS or hear of them in the NEWSPAPER I cringe. I hate BOXING, JUDO, fighting in general. I hate those in the world that go to war and hurt little children.

Anyway my friend told me what was what and told me I had to do what she said. SO I stopped thinking for myself!!! YUK!!! YES AND Double YUK!!! There on I never made any decisions without asking someone else's opinion. I was always so afraid of disapproval that in schools plays etc I was too self conscious to join in. I can't sing LOL and Dancing I find it hard to relax and just go with the rhythm. BUT when I met my husband he exasperated things further. YES I TOLERATED HIM!! The pay off was 1) he took me away from my family home which had no respect or boundaries and I was so frustrated. Which was why the bully girl was able to prey on you in the first place. 2)he made all the decisions for me A relief at a time you didn't know better... 3)He helped to rein enforce my LOW LOW SELF ESTEEM. 4)Because I let him be totally responsible for me, I gained his approval. And protection and a place to belong to. That's all you knew to do...

I just wanted to be loved. BUT I now know that I actually sought functionality with my partner, someone to guide me, someone to lead me, some one YES to take care of me. Though at the expense that I owed him more than I could ever give, I gave him myself, I lost thy self completely. I was like a robot. No more!

Didn't I realize, my BODY did, though I ignored HER!! I wanted fairness, my partner wanted for HIM!!! I asked and asked for him to share money, childminding, value the housework I did.

BUT I realise now my BODY spoke loudly to me. He never valued the housework, thus, MY BODY Stopped doing so much housework, I was criticized HARD but my body still stood justified!! I'd say I am not having you not sharing, YET I STILL SHARED MY MONEY WITH HIM (silent message: he deserve me to share, I didn't DESERVE him to share with me, because this message is spoken in my actions!!)

SO my BODY spoke, I denied it, why? I didn't want to be on my OWN!!! You didn't know how to! Nobody ever taught you the building blocks you needed! If anything, you learned that the world was a dangerous place given growing up in a home with no respect and no boundaries...

Now somewhat I still hang on. HOW? my partner comes every night to see our daughter at my house. I try sometimes not to upset my ex in case he stops coming. That would mean I would be ALL alone every night (depressed!!!) so I enable him to keep coming. Have you considered an antidepressant? Or St. John's wort? Seriously, adult survivors of abusive homes develop a propensity towards anxiety and depression, even if not so inclined biologically. YUK!!! YES I know but how can I not feel so LONELY???? An antidepressant can really help. Talk to your doc. even if you go with an herbal remedy since there are some interactions with other drugs.

I can't get out much because of childminding, my ex won't mind our daughter much. So what option do I have spend every night alone forever, STUCK in the house????? Friends? Neighbors? Babysitters?

I work as a secretary, I have done one course after another, but GOODNESS for years I hated feedback. Now I welcome it somewhat!! I've read lots of books, Words that hurt, Road less traveled and beyond. I am reading mindworks currently. I am doing a degree with open university on Social Science my 1st year just finished. (5 To go). I am 26 years old. Yipppeeeee! This will help your self esteem and independence.

I am talkative, I love comedy (the dafter the better), I like all music that is music, not rave, or noise LOL. I am not so practical. DIY not my strong point.

Speak to you all later, must get some work done. One of my weaknesses is getting side tracked, I love to meet people and get chatting and well time flies.

Love to you all my new family Theressa Love and purrs to you too Theressa...

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa,

Lynn here, Hi and bye group. I will be following you all faithfully in my heart. It's time for me to do a bit of reflection (((Steve & Asha))), watch these. I think there should be a whole new set of terms for recovering couples. This goes for Becky and B, too.

You are in good hands, Theressa. There is a lot of love here.

This is not a joke (mine are sometimes a fine line) My tombstone should read, "She Went For It" Thanks Doc.

Don't forget, Love, Laughter and Tears, I've loved you all, laughed with all and cried with all,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Hi Chatty Cats. This is Trubble making trouble on Daddy John's Mac, having fun trying to crash it, like I crashed Mommy's. heheheh! MommyDoc2, I'll miss you! Daddy Dan, you really didn't fool LOCO. He was just hungry. Astrid, my paws are crossed for your friend, Try giving him Salmon. AKasha (one of mommy's favorite vampires in the Anne Rice series) and Steve: Meow! (Steve: next time she is a bad girl, don't let her back in the tomb.) Theresa, doc said to tell you that you won't feel alone once you find yourself inside. Well, I don't know about you, but when I look "inside", all I see are my sharp, pointy teeth. Oh oh! There's the doc! She's gonna kill me! Bye! I'm back and this really was me!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Opps! My tail hit "send". Gotta say Hi to Becky and David and B. Please send Salmon to me! Love & Purrs, Trubble

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Opps! My tail hit "send". Gotta say Hi to Becky and David and B. Please send Salmon to me! Love & Purrs, Trubble

Doc messed that one up. It was Her tail that hit "send." hahahahaha

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and Cat Box Family,

I haven't much to say this post, I got home and looked at the posts and lo and behold the only posts were from Theressa and Lynn. No one wants to fill in for Dr Irene, I guess. As if any of us could. We can listen and give our opinions but learned advice, no way. (I don't think). I do! I do! I'll fill in! My rate is a pound of Salmon or Trout per word.

Dear Theressa,

I really feel that I understand what you say about loneliness, who wants to be lonely? None of us do, we just have to change the lonely to being alone, there is a difference. Lynn is going on vacation and except for our critters, I will be alone and lonesome but not really lonely. One way of getting over this is to find yourself a hobby that you can do, and you don't have to excel just do it. Reading is a good one, but you mentioned a couple of self help books which are good, but reading for the enjoyment of reading is fun to. Reading turns pictures on in your mind as I read in the Family Circus comic strip one day, so true. You mentioned your daughter and doing things with her will combat the lonely feeling. If you can even find a friend, male or female, who you can talk to or visit will also beat the lonelies.

Give yourself a chance and eventually these feelings will be a thing of the used to be's. You said that your partner criticized you which didn't enhance your feelings about yourself. If he is your ex, then perhaps allowing him to spend the evening visiting isn't helping you better your feelings of self worth. Absolutely not! Better give him up so you get real lonely. Then you might be motivated to do something more constructive about it.

You said that you were working toward a Social Science degree, that in itself speaks for your abilities. Higher education is a job and a task but well worth it when you finally get the degree.

We do have something in common, we are both the eldest sibling. Do you get along with yours? I do now but when we all were younger no way. If so, perhaps you can call them or email them, this will also help with the feelings which you are experiencing.

Just remember that you are who you are, and by being yourself, not what someone wants or tells you to be is one way to enable people to know you. If a person does this then they are looking out for themselves and don't care about you.

You can meet people in many ways and places, they all won't be your friends, but there will be some who will be honored to call you friend just because of who you are.

Dear Astrid,

Sorry to hear about your friend, and please don't berate yourself if there isn't more that you can do. It sounds to me as though you did all that you could do. Just being there (spiritually if not physically) is sometimes enough.

Once again I'm going to show my ignorance, but could you explain what AIM does and what the acronym is for? My job uses a lot of them and I'm still at a loss with many of them.

Being unable to call anyone close to you and your friend must be doubly hard because I'm sure that being able to talk to someone would have eased your mind somewhat.

Anyway be sure that my best wishes are with you.

Dear Becky,

I just read a post that Lynn sent me titled Rules of My House. As I read it, I could see my mother to a tee, and exactly how I was raised, because there were some things there that pertained to me and the way that I have acted. These rules were on one of the boards of Dr Irene's'. I don't remember which one. Me neither.

How are things going in school? With Halloween coming up I bet the younger kids are checking out a lot of spooky stories. Headless Horseman of Sleepy Hollow, comes to mind. I'm not into to many kids books anymore.

Huge hugs

Dear Asha (and Steve),

I hope that the day to day arena of life and work has improved for you both. I posted earlier Asha about pulling a Diane Keaton in First Wives Club on Steve, and I'm retracting that statement now, because as Steve's journey gets further along, I'm sure that you both will need each other very much, just remember to keep working on Self when these times become more difficult.

To All,

Lynn leaves tomorrow and I now that I am going to miss her immensely. I am still going to work on Self and trying to dig up some childhood memories, both good and bad. Good constructive use of your time Dan.

Dr Irene and Trubble,

Your spirits are with us and we know that Dell will get your computer fixed quickly. Dell did a pretty good job. Had it back to me in 3 days! Bless them; best company in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Trubble, I think that you might even enjoy paddlefish, they're big enough to feed you for a year. Oh Daddy Dan, I dunno 'bout that. I'm a growing boy! I wanna be as tall as you! LOCO and I will do a good job on this fishie, I'm sure.

Hugs and Best wishes

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

The above post was mine. I'd know my Daddy Dan anywhere!

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Trubble,

Your Doc is not using a MAC is she? Only when she's stuck LOCO. They've got a mixed marriage: He's a MAC devotee and she's a Windows nut. You should hear them go at it! I'm trying to finish Dan's keyboard but it won't respond. You mean finish it off? Easy! Take a big glass of real sugar soda... I wish he'd get a mouse. Oh little brother, you don't need Daddy Dan to get you a mouse...

Mommy Lynn is leaving so I don't have anyone who will take my picture so I'm not going to smile till she comes back, hopefully with Salmon! I betcha Daddy Dan will be even more upset than you. Better curl up with him and keep his feeties warm. I love ya LOCO.

LOCO

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Trubble dear,

Watch the games Sunday, I'll wave to you from the crowd. I'll be the one with the sign that says Cat Box. MommyDoc1 and JohnnyMac invited my 6 cats over while I'm gone. This is so daddy can get in some Quality Time with LOCO. He really can smile ^_^ And stay warm...

Love,

Football fan 1, MommyDoc2

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Dear MommyDoc and JohnnyMac,

Purrfect Parents! Are you on this side of the posts for a reason and just waiting for the "Doc for the Day"? Get it fixed quick and get out the salmon. We have company for dinner!

Introduce yourselves Cat Box, don't act like you have the manners of alley cats. Hey!

Welcome aboard,

Trubble and Loco

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Dear Group,

Trubble, send Loco back home! Shame on him. Look what happens when I turn my back for a minute. hehehehe!

A quick one on my stage of Reflection: Who am I. Easy. I am Lynn the bartender. That is truly who I am, the self at it's best. I had to fight for this though. Remember the parents who "wouldn't" let me join the Peace Corps. They didn't like me bartending either. They sent me to college. I didn't finish one semester. Went back to bartending. Then I went to vo tech and became an architectural draftsman. Got a job with a firm and bartended 2 nights a week. My takehome $ from the bar was more than from the "real" job. I went back to bartending. My parents had a friend who ran the unemployment office in our town. He got me an interview (I didn't ask for one) with an utilities company. The job was mine. I smiled and thanked the guy. Locked in an 8 X 10 room for 8 hours a day putting peoples utility bills on microfilm, I didn't care what the pay, would have made me slit my throat before I got my first paycheck. Mom and Dad were soooooo disappointed. I had such potential. I went back to college. I didn't finish the semester.

Somewhere here abouts I realized Lynn was meant to be a bartender. I worked in a nice place, I got good pay, I had a great boss and I Loved the people...... And it shows...

Almost the end of that stage of my life (middle aged by this time). I knew who I was. I felt confident there, I was comfortable there. What more can a person ask out of life?

My dad gave it one more shot after my late husband died (I still worked "on call". He thought I should go back to college. I finally got it!!!!! Sun lamp!! No 100 watters for me. Dad I said If you want to go to college why don't YOU? He sad no, that it was too late for him, but he always regretted that he didn't. That's why it was so important to he and mom that us girls both got a college education. That was his dream, not mine.........

I'm glad I stood my ground. It wasn't easy, but that's who I am and where I was meant to be and I loved every minute of it.

I have learned somewhere along the line that I am as comfortable with the country club set as I am with the Rescue Mission bunch. That's because I know who I am. Lynn the bartender. Nothing more, nothing less. Just enough, huh Dan!

With that, we had a weather change and it is chilllllly, I am going to put away my "grandmother" suit and put on a pair of jeans and my denim jacket and my Calamity Jane boots and head for the airport. I have a plane to catch.

No time to edit, Love to All and if I'm not mistaken, Trubble, who knows who he is, is here. Thanks Doc ^_^

Bunches of Good Stuff,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000

S1

Dan,

I've read the "rules" post as well, and could sure identify with it, not only in relation to my childhood, but to my present situation as well. It's all about control and power, about one person wanting the advantage by being the one that sets (and changes) the rules to suit him/herself. The result for the rest of us is confusion and insecurity.

When I saw my therapist (maybe I'll refer to her as Dr. Z from now on--easier than typing therapist) I told her that I just cannot understand how a man could see his wife cry, could hear her ask him, even plead with him to stop saying cruel things, and STILL look at her with rage and disgust on his face. How can he intensify the hostility as though her tears were fuel? I don't understand! I don't get it! Because there is contempt for weakness Becky. Contempt and anger and hatred for the weak parent who did not protect them; care for them...

She said that some people are just that way; they can't feel empathy for another. OH! But people who want to can learn. They just aren't capable of it. Those who really, really want can become capable... I think that's an awful defect, because empathy keeps us within boundaries. those who can't feel it inflict pain, break the rules, and walk away unaffected. Or maybe they aren't unaffected. Contrary to any outward appearance, these people are very much affected. The soul knows. That's why it is so common for an angry person to feel so deeply pained when first coming to grips with his or her poor behavior. It's my belief that when we die, we carry with us who and what we were while on earth. If we have a disease of the soul, it will not only make our time on earth less wonderful than it could have been, it will make our time in eternity less as well. I'm not expressing myself too well; I'm trying to say that who we are is eternal, and that being the case, shouldn't we work to be the best we can be? Yes. And, you say it very well.

It's interesting that you mentioned scary books. One of the students asked me yesterday for Stephen King, which we don't have. I tried to convince him that Dracula is very scary, but I don't think he believed me. I read it for the first time a few years ago, and was surprised at how scary it is! But you know kids: if a book was written "in the old days" it can't be any good!

I'll say goodnight to everyone. G'night all! AKasha (giggle) and 'specially Steve, come say "HI" to me! Pleeze?

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, October 06, 2000

S1

Hi Dr Irene & Trubble and the rest of the gang.

We had some computer troubles too. Thought I had a computer virus, but it turns out that luckily I don't.

Also, the real world of work and various mundane tasks that have been put off over the last couple of weeks are beckoning... that's okay, because I feel like now I have the energy to tackle them.

I'm looking forward to receiving the books you recommended (they take a while for shipment) and taking a little time to relax and read as well. Plus, I've now started some of my classes - one of them is a tyebo class - lots of karate moves and kicks which would be great for venting frustration if I had any, but I'm really feeling very peaceful these days. :)

Just wanted to say that I'm still here, that things are going better than ever from my perspective, but that I have to get some work projects back on track so that's why I haven't been posting quite as much.

Nice to see the "blue pencil" again though.

Take care everyone. Talk to you soon.

Asha (AK)

p.s. It's quiet without Lynn... Yeah

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, October 06, 2000

S1

Hi Catbox family,

Where is Lynn off to? Oh geezzz I only just got to superficially know her, drat and double drat, will she be back?? 2 weeks.

Dr I, I don't like taking MEDS and I don't trust the experts in the medical field too much. You use a med and ten years later find out the RISKS, that they calculated didn't mean SAFE!!!! St John's Wort I've recommended it to lots of people since I've heard so much good stuff about it, but I've always cautioned them to seek advice from other sources first. Right. I had antidepressants some years ago when I was bullied at work. (GOODNESS WHEN I THINK BACK I FEEL SO ANGRY, I TOLERATE THE HUMILIATION AND THEN FELT GUILTY THAT I MUST OF DONE SOMETHING WRONG TO THESE SONS AND DAUGHTER OF A *****S.)

I want to share my realization (DREAM) the night before last. I had a dream I sat on a sofa and next to me was a guy and a girl next to him, across the room was an armchair and a guy sat on it. He went to my old high school (His name was Paul). The guy sat next to me, although nice, I didn't fancy him, he leaned across and tried to put his arm around me. I shot up and went and sat on the arm of the chair besides the guy on the arm chair. As I leaned over to talk to him he said "You're a dog, move". I felt so humiliated and shot of out of the room. I went off to find the bathroom. (I was in Sara's house, she was a girl pretty girl from my high school, very popular) I went upstairs to find the bathroom, though the lavatory wasn't in there. So I went back down stairs and she told me the lavatory was downstairs. [MY DREAM ENDED HERE!!]

On my way to work after having this dream whilst I was sat in my car I saw an old friend (a guy who asked me to date him before I met my ex. Paul bought me gifts a few times) though I didn't want to go out with him. His friend was more popular, so I went out with him. (Though he wasn't serious, especially when he found out I didn't sleep around.) So I guess I did have some boundaries and self respect after all!!!! :)

Then as I was still sat in my car, my mind saw David. I used to work in a shop when I just left school and some what before I left school. Anyway, David used to come in many times to buy a bag of sweets. He was a bit older than me a few years, I'd guess. He bought me gifts, but again he wasn't very popular. Then I saw Jason. Funny, but when I first saw Jason, I thought he was nice ( he was having driving lessons at the same time as me, though our instructor used to pick me up and then take him home). Though, when I went to meet him for our first and ONLY date I saw him walking towards me in MAC. What's MAC? I just didn't like him. He looked girly, pathetic, he was too polite, he was too nice, clingy. I feared this clinginess. No one had ever paid me this much attention. Jason hung on my every word; he listened to me' he gave me his whole self. (His parents were going through divorce at the same time!!) I feared him because I felt smothered. What was even worse, he told me I was wonderful, and he was so glad I turned up - since he didn't expect me to. He said he hated girls who messed him around when he treated them so well. As we left the pizza hut panic struck me, I felt scared and I said "Gotta go catch my bus; see you. [I didn't contact him ever again. Nor did I give him my telephone number to contact me]

I then whilst still sat in my car (RUSH HOUR, SLOW TRAFFIC LOTS OF TIME TO THINK LOL) I saw Lee in my thoughts, Lee asked me out (good lucking guy from school) quiet, kept himself to himself, not a loud mouth. Very like me. He tried hard to talk to others but they didn't see him. (Like me!!!) He asked me for a date. I said "No" because he was in my class, my friends might not approve, they might laugh at us; I was scared of getting attached. I saw some of my friends ending up pregnant at 15 years old. No way did I want this!!! [I was more bothered about what people would say, "tart" perhaps? as they called these girls.] Though after Lee asked me and I refused, I regretted it. I did like him, though he wasn't fancied by my friends. I thought they'd think he was a drip!!!

I was sat still in my car when I saw the connections loud and clear!!! They all like me [I'm likeable! Lovable, even! Then I thought, why didn't I know this before now??] I didn't try to be anyone else with these people, PERHAPS I DID, I tried to avoid what was best for me. Didn't I, I sold out for my friends approval didn't I??

Then I saw my friend Donna (An old friend) she looked so free and easy, she still is. (She has slept with more men than I've had hot dinners, but they never treat her right, they use her and abuse her, she tolerates it, she even gave up three children to be free, though she never learns. She got caught pregnant a couple of years ago, then she left the child's father - said he was too smothering. Then she met a guy half her age, recently, and now he's gotten off and left her pregnant. She is so popular with guys WHY? Does she attract them??? She dresses really pretty ("tart" my ex called it; he said she's like flies on sh*t. She's so easy, that she's an easy target. Men usually take what is given on a plate.) I said, "That's cruel." He said, "Well, she offers it, so why shouldn't they take it? If she cares so little for herself, its her fault." I mean guys may think I've gotta have her to be popular (have something in common with other guys). My ex was straight forward as you can see, but I guess there is some truth in what he says. Yes.

I attracted sincere people but discarded them since they didn't reinforce the part of me that thought I wasn't good enough. Is this correct?? Yep. The sincere people who were attracted to me, even though I didn't know me, perhaps they saw me - even when I didn't what do you think??? is this possible?? Yes. They didn't care about my looks, (I am no Marilyn Munroe, but don't want to be either.) The guys didn't act free and easy either. (This is perhaps why they weren't so popular? Not sure. Could be.) WHY did I discard the ones that were probably better for me?? Were they really better for me or did they also have low self esteems and this is why they wanted to smother me??? Not sure; maybe.

Does like attract like?? Often, yes it does.

I missed this point. I do remember in the past my sister saying to Paul, my ex, "Why do you like Theressa?" She told me he said because she has such a young innocent face. (YEAH DRAT, MEANS I HAVE TO USE ID EVERY TIME I ENTER A BAR LOL) Lucky girl! Because Theressa is so changeable and every day is different with her. (I am a Gemini star sign, and although I am not into horoscopes when I was a kid I read them, I do have mood swings a lot.)

Why did all this happen!!! the dream the day dreams?? I think its God's way of showing me that I am okay!! what do you think?? I am loveable and to stop changing things that make me who I am, ME!!! and are not flaws as some my ex for one tries to say they are. God is showing me I do not need to keep looking for approval. I agree. About time you woke up. Keep it up!

Thanks for listening you guys, any insights on my post are more than welcome.

I do like to read, though its been difficult recently since doing my degree course. I am not so organized which makes me less effective, I have to work on this. Side tracked so much by all the wonderful things around me. I love variety.

Take care all of you. Lets keep on moving, growing, don't stop!!! Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, October 06, 2000

S1

Theressa

Hi. I don't know about the dreams/daydreams, but I do know that as long as you depend on outside approval to validate your self worth, you will be restricted. Encouragement and support are great, but when it's not available we have to learn to encourage and support ourselves.

I think that once you know deep down that you are "okay" that you will tend to avoid people that don't make you feel okay, and will be drawn more to those who do see you as being "okay".

By the way, Lynn is just on vacation. She'll be back, no doubt.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, October 06, 2000

S1

Dear all I'm posting here, because I read all your stories, and you feel so close. I wanted to post before, but felt sort of out of place, a stranger coming in. Please don't feel out of sorts! You're welcome! Still do, but decided to give it a try. I've been through the anger, I've been through the panic and hurt, the loneliness, the beating myself up and the realizing it was not all my fault. Even been through the feeling I no longer loved him, that too much had happened.

Now I agreed to see him. After almost one year of separation He left, second time in three years, the last two and a half without seeing each other. He called twice before in these last months. The first time I wasn't home and didn't return the call. The second time I did answer and told him I didn't want to see him; I needed to feel the anger and I needed to do it alone. He told me how important I was to him and I said he was important to me too He thinks he can speak for you, huh?, but that I still wanted to be alone. I even told him I probably still loved him, but I needed to be alone, and would call when I was ready. This week, one month later, he called again. I had been thinking all weekend that maybe the time had come the contact him. When he rang and said could he please see me. I said I wanted to think it over. It was so weird. Both times he called I had just decided that I might talk to him, had written in my diary that I would answer the phone should he call. Some kind of telepathic thing.

Don't know whether I did the right thing to agree to seeing him. I said I needed to think it over, and am very glad I did. Then I decided I really wanted to see him, I didn't want you run away anymore. On the phone I told him a little about what I learned over the past few months. About abusive behavior, about his intimidating me. He says he wants to hear. I said I want to tell him, but may find it hard. He says you don't have to tell everything at once. Says he want to read Beattie's book about codependence too. Says he's feeling like a total jerk, but is trying to forgive himself, and, since I was very angry, did I hate him? I said that I was angry, every now and then, that I felt that I needed that, never could allow anger (neither could he)... But that no, I didn't hate him. We both are codependent. He has always been very dependent on me (came from another country and didn't know the language at first, also no money, no family nearby and no friends. Go figure.) I was controlling I guess, and he was mainly mad at me and the whole world (not necessarily in that order :) for not performing like he wanted us to perform). We both have really big border problems. That is: no borders whatsoever. Didn't have a clue what they where. I found this site, read When to say yes, when to say no by Cloud and Townsend - and the lights went on.

He found out with the help of a therapist that due to his childhood (very abusive, alcoholic father, codependent mother and lots of other really bad stuff), that he felt he needed to rescue everyone. He was so busy rescuing, he forgot to take care of himself. And I was so busy rescuing him from the after effects of his terrible childhood and all the problem his family had, and making excuses for his not participating fairly in the relationship, that I forgot to take care of me. Problems big time. I don't know what will happen now. I know I still love this man, I want to try to work things out if he is willing to commit to that. I feel very fragile, know I am taking a big risk, because right now my life is OK, I feel secure and peaceful on my own. I don't ever want to go back to where we were, but I don't want to miss the chance to work it out. Like Lynn said in one of the earlier posts, I just don't want to do this whole getting used to someone business again. I love the man, I even like him, though he really acts crazy at times. Seeing the progress made here by Lynn and Dan and AK and Steve, helped to make the decision to give it just one more try. We're seeing each other on Wednesday. Please say a prayer for us, we'll need it.

Sorry about my English, I'm not a native speaker (and have no English spelling check :)), and logging in from Europe (Dr. I, you got yourself an international site!) :)

Love to all, even though I don't know you, your stories meant a lot to me.

PS: Do any of you have any suggestions on how to get your cats NOT using the computer while you try to work on it? Help on both the human and the cat issue is appreciated! Giggle!

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, October 06, 2000

S1

You have my prayers.

I'm by no means an expert, but one thing that may help in choosing whether or not to take a chance with this guy is the decision to make "conscious choices".

What I mean is that you don't deny that you are taking some chances and you don't deny that it may not work out the way you hope. You take a conscious risk, that you won't blame him or anyone else for, if you decide to try to work things out. And, you are likely to learn from the experience.

For me, this helps to distinguish whether I'm being influenced from outside or from inside.

I also know that the influences from outside on *not* getting back together with someone after awful things have happened can be strong. Don't confuse those influences or his influences with your own real feelings (sometimes hard to do).

I'm still learning myself how to stay "safe" and where to have reasonable boundaries without swinging the other way into "dictator/controller". Also, to still know that my feelings *are* important and that, if I'm going to be in a relationship, I want my needs to be considered. Finding the balance is a little tricky at first.

hope that helps.

Asha (AK) Hi AKasha-Mommy!

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the cat box family.

Big Welcome to AJ. Don't worry about any posting mistakes or improper use of terms as even those of American heritage have a hard tie with English.

Lynn's gone and it seems that the animals miss her already. Kittie has done nothing but whine, the cats are acting like every high spot is hiding her and Sweetie is going to the door and then back into the house. And I'm going nuts. Lynn left yesterday and already it seems like a month, after two weeks I don't know what shape I'm going to be in. We think it will get easier. And mommy made a picture of me special for you Daddy Dan. I'll keep you company while MommyDoc2 is away. Look on the home page! (It will be posted for the month of October.)

As I posted before Lynn asked me who I was. I'm still working on that but I think that I'm someone who cares about people more than I care about myself.

I told in an earlier post, I think, that I sent money home while I was in Nam. My mother said that she never received it. I knew when I was over there that there wasn't any money put into a savings account for me, because I contacted the bank for some money so that I could go on R & R to Australia. I got a reply back that no such account existed. I then called by phone to ask where it was and told her that I needed some money. When the time came for me to go, I still hadn't received it, but the guys in my platoon got together and loaned me the money. It took 3 weeks after I returned for her to send me the money. It was $300 and I had sent home around $1000. Big Ouchhh. Your mom's antics never cease to amaze me. When I returned, I was using my parent's car, and my dad wasn't very happy about that, so I decided to buy my own. Once again I asked for the money, I was told that I had to wait. My dad loaned me the money for the car 3 days after my mom came up with the money. Of course she got it back because I had to give it to my dad. I figured out later that she had went to a finance company and borrowed the money. I have brought this up to her a couple of times; the last time she hung up on me, but she says that it never got to her. I have tried to write this off but must admit that it still bothers me. If she needed it for whatever, all she has to do is say so, not lie about never getting it. No wonder you were in such denial about your mom Dan. She is an incredibly selfish and opportunistic woman. I think she is a sick woman. Your job is not to take her treatment seriously. It is a function of her and her illness - and has nothing to do with you!

Also as I told you she is very good at letting people know that she has or does loan money to her kids. I have to admit that I have borrowed money from her in the past, long past. She even told Lynn that she had to make a house payment (my first wife and I had bought a house) for me. I gave her the money and asked her to send the payment in for me as we were going to be out of town. From this came the story that she made my house payment. A couple of years ago, I asked her how much I owed her, she gave me a figure and I paid her. Not one word has been mentioned that I paid her back. After my first wife and I had separated, I gave my mother two chess sets as collateral for some gas money. I was taking my daughter fishing and didn't have enough for gas there and back. I've repaid her, but the chess sets are hers. They're in her house. so consequently. "What's yours is mine and what's mine is mine." Ugh.

I posted to Becky earlier about regressive therapy, and that old therapist had used it with me but that I hadn't kept at it. I see now that this was a mistake, because I don't think that I really contacted young Danny. That part of me is still locked and crying for the childhood which was being taken away from him at the age that I chose. I think you're getting there Dan...

At the age of nine one of the houses my family lived in a two bedroom house, so they slept in one room and my siblings and I slept in the other. There were four boys counting my baby brother and my younger sister. Every two years we would move. We did live in one neighborhood about 6 years, not all at one time, so that is the neighborhood which I claim to have been raised in.

Dear Dr Irene and Trubble,

Today I made somewhat of a breakthrough, I think. I pulled a error which someone without my experience might pull, and I just said to myself, mistakes happen. No kicking myself, no berating, no nothing. I saw where I made my mistake and made the best of it. I was breaking someone in, and used it to show him what not to do. !!!!!!!!!! YIPPPEEEEEE!!!!

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000

S1

Hi Dan.

It amazes me how well you've turned out despite the things your mother has done. Where did you get all that caring and helpfulness from? He was trained to take care of mom from the time he was in diapers. (At his own expense, of course.)

Maybe you can use your time alone without Lynn to do something special for yourself. You deserve it.

Asha (AK)

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000

S1

Dear Asha and Dan,

Thanks for your welcome. It feels good to be welcome. Asha, thanks for your thoughts on ‘making a conscious choice'. I think that is what I tried to do when I made the decision to see him in the first place. I waited for three days before calling him and say I would see him. I just wanted to be sure that I WANTED to see him, that I didn't feel obligated or pressured. My mother-in-law, who is a very very dear friend (I call here my soul-mother) said, "You have to realize that if you refuse to see him now, he may not call again." I said I knew, but still needed to feel sure that if I agreed, I would do so because I wanted to - and not out of fear of loosing my last change to reconcile. Is that what you mean sort of? I like that!

I know it was a hard thing to do for me, because I kept thinking, maybe if I wait this long he will get mad at me, and then I said to myself: if he gets mad again about something like this, I don't want to be with him in the first place. But still, the nagging voice is hard to ignore. And I know this will be my biggest task, to keep taking my time before I make any decisions, and not to act on impulse and loose myself again in the process. Yep.

As for the pressure of not going back, I know what you mean. My sister especially says the only way by now is a divorce. At first she felt it was OK to try to get back together, but after a while, she said he just can't chose between wanting his freedom and you. She was right then, though I think/feel he might be ready for some commitment now. If not, I just hope I will be strong enough to get out immediately and tell him to go think a little longer, as I don't want to be near him if he doesn't really want to be near me! It hurts to much. Excellent. Just pay attention to your body. If something inside hurts, pull away!

When we separated he used to tell me he loved very much all the time, and I was so very important to him, but he he needed to learn about himself and even started an affair in the process of learning. An affair is not about learning about the self; it is about indulging the ego. I sort of understood. I don't. Needed maybe to feel strong and wanted. Women fighting over him or something like that. See, ego. I refused to fight though. Good. Later on when the affair ended, he kept saying he really wanted us to be back together (had said that all the time by the way), but was so very, very afraid. When I said I didn't want to see him for some time because it hurt too much to be near him, it only took him two weeks to be sure he really wanted to be with me. He wants what he can't have. It lasted 6 weeks. Cuz that's about how long it took to "get" you. It really made me so very insecure. Don't want that anymore. That's why you have to be willing, ready and able to pull back at any time. Even in 6 months. He will test you. I can understand his fears though, made me wonder whether I might be the abuser, but I don't think so. I asked him lots of time whether he thought I controlled and arranged too much. He always answered "no" and if anything I was too loving anyway. And had I been less loving, he would have been gone years before (we've been together for 15 years, both first marriage).

Am I to harsh in wanting a commitment? No. You deserve a commitment. I'm not so sure this man will be able to commit once he is certain that you are committed. Until that time, he will want it. It is not that I expect, or even want him to move back in with me on any short notice. Just that I need his commitment to try, and if not, I feel I need to protect myself and get out again. Am I controlling in not wanting to be with him if he wants or needs total freedom? Absolutely not! If he wants freedom and you want commitment, you would be silly and unfair to yourself to stay with him!

Asha, I figured out Steve is sort of a writer. My husband © (the computer made the copywrite sign all by itself!!!. I just wanted a C between brackets, but I rather like it. Me too. Each of us is unique and copywite protected after all :) ) is a painter. Think being an artist has some connection to their difficulties? :)

Dear Dan

I had to laugh (happy laugh) at your comment about making mistakes. I distinctly remember when that happened for the first time for me: making a mistake (rather important) and just correcting it as far as possible and not making a fuss about it, not beating myself up. It felt great. It will get easier, once you learned the trick!! I have a question for you about Vietnam, though maybe it's more for Lynn (know she isn't there). I don't know about Vietnam, I don't know about being in a war and have never experienced my life being threatened for any prolonged time. I know C has been in situations like that for a big part of his youth. He told me a little about it, but I just could not relate. Some time ago we talked a little more, and he said he really had wanted to tell me when we met, but it had been so hard, and I just didn't seem to understand. Is there anything I can do to make the talking easier and to understand more.

Sun's shining her and I hope the light and warmth will find you all as happy and secure as possible.

Trubble, my cats don't ever get salmon. Just tinned food and only (sorry) in 4 varieties. One of them ran away this summer and didn't come back. You think I should buy Salmon? You bet! If you fed them fresh Salmon and Trout, you would never loose a cat!

Hope to hear from you again

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000

S1

My family's cat when I was a kid used to love the "juice" from tuna fish cans, so we ate tuna fish sandwiches or tuna casserole at least once a week (usually 2-3 times) for the cat! Even though I was the one who wanted the cat (my father used to actively despise cats, and my mom's more a "dog person"), my parents were absolutely devastated when she died. We grow on you, huh? I was away at college and had wished I could have come home and seen my kitty one more time -- since I'm an only child, I sometimes felt almost like the cat was my sister.

I feel like the ones I have now are my kids, sometimes. They're wonderful. I've been a cat person from birth and nobody knows where I got it from :) Nobody seems to know, either, how two extremely introverted parents ended up giving birth to a moderately extroverted child who really didn't enjoy the isolation of living out in the country. (When I was four years old, Mom would see me wandering around the front yard, pouring some water mixed with food coloring on the ground. When asked what I was doing, the response was "making a sidewalk!") I now live in a moderately large city, about a mile and a half from downtown, and I love it here. My mom still does some mumbling about it supposedly being a bad neighborhood, but I've lived here for three years and the worst problem I've had was the crazy guy who was punching windows out of people's cars. My next-door neighbor ran after him, I called 911, and the police came right away. I have comprehensive glass insurance (thanks Dad!) and so it was only a very minor inconvenience. I really like it here. :)

Been a challenging few days. I backslid a bit last night -- my ex and I have been on friendlier terms, and he stopped by for a visit then went to give someone a ride. He came back, unexpectedly, and we ended up in bed. (Well, actually on the couch, but you know what I mean *wry smile*) And subsequently we ended up having a bit of a nasty argument. He wants me back, but just as a casual girlfriend with the right for both of us to see other people. My response was "Oh, you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want me to go on sleeping with you and taking care of you without having to change any of the things that made me want to leave in the first place." He wasn't pleased with that, said that I "always" twist his words into things he doesn't mean that make him sound like a bad person. Translation: "You untwist my words so my true meaning becomes obvious." This went on for a bit, and I told him (as calmly as I could but I was in tears) that it seems like he doesn't understand that I'm angry with him if I'm not actively screaming and yelling. But I'm still angry and hurt about things that have happened, and I do want for us to be friends but I can't take him back, I'm not comfortable with continuing to sleep with him (yes, it was fun, but it's more trouble than it's worth at this point), and when one of us finds something more serious this is just going to make a horrendous mess out of things.

I'm a bit annoyed with myself both for sleeping with him again and for the fight, but it's too late now to undo, so I'll put the effort into making sure this doesn't happen again. A lesson. And today when I went down to the mailbox, there was a lovely card from my father. I ended up telling him about what was behind the breakup the last time we talked (maybe a week ago). The card has a cat falling through the air on the front cover, and the inside says "Don't worry -- you'll land on your feet. Hang in there." And there's a little written message from him that says he thinks I'm doing the right thing and hopes I'm doing well. Yay! Dad gets it! (Shouldn't surprise me -- when there's a genuine crisis he always does. The little stuff is sometimes not so good but points when I've faced something that could potentially REALLY screw up my life he's been there for me and been wonderful. My mom's the exact opposite.)

I will, indeed, land on my feet. I always do. :)

*hugs* to Theressa, I've seen you post elsewhere before. Welcome in. I hear you about meds, but I (with some reluctance) decided to take St John's Wort last winter and had the first winter in five years that wasn't constantly impaired by inability to concentrate. I've got about a month before I should probably go back on. I'm one of those people who just does not deal well with winter.

Welcome AJ. :) I know somewhat how you feel about wanting to stay alone and stay angry. That's sort of where I'm at right now. Got a bit of a false sense of security going and that wasn't a good thing for me.

One of the most difficult things I'm dealing with in the transition of trying to have a friendship with my ex is that I now see where kisses and hugs and "I love you" covered up a lot of not knowing what to say or how to talk to each other. I made him go home last night even though I know he really wanted to stay (and part of me would have liked that too). Part of me wants to be angry and cynical and look at his motivations in the worst possible light, part of me wants to believe and work things out, but most of me misses what we had, knows there was good, knows that mistakes were made on both sides and this relationship SHOULD be over, and wants to move on.

Hope Lynn's having fun on vacation, and good to see that computer problems are over. :)

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000

S1

Ick. "Ick?" We like! Something else that's been going on here, not sure if I'm looking for an answer or just venting:

I hung up on my mother last night. (In fact, that might have set the stage for what happened later ... I was already feeling rather icky thanks to that.) She called to tell me that there was a job available as a junior high math teacher and it looked like the place might be desperate enough to take anyone with a bachelor's degree and a few credits in math (I made it through Calc I, don't know how, and had to drop Calc II because I was failing since I hadn't really understood Calc I; in slightly different circumstances I possibly could have gone further with it). "Mom. I'm in grad school for ENGLISH. Not math. I do not want to be a math teacher." "Well, I just thought... and there are all these other teaching jobs you could get with just a bachelor's and they'd let you get the full credentials later, if you'd just move somewhere else." "Mom! I am NOT MOVING!" On and on it went for about ten minutes, when I made up some excuse just to get her off the phone. Ick.

I am furious about this. I know what it comes from, but I am so sick of her trying to realize her and her sister's dreams through me! So, stop giving mom so much power in your head! She is who she is; no more, no less. Background: the feminist movement came a bit too late for Mom's older sister. She took a career aptitude test in high school and was told "Hahahahaha! This says you'd make a good engineer and YOU'RE A GIRL! Isn't that just the funniest thing you've ever heard? Hahahahaha!" The sister ended up working as a bookkeeper and marrying the first man who asked her, and having various and sundry nervous breakdowns throughout her adult life.

Mom says she doesn't have a "mind for math" the way her sister, or my father, or I do. My interests lie in the humanities -- I write, I sing (though not as well as I'd like), I'm very interested in theater and I was considered one of the best DJs on the college radio station. Mom is always always always trying to push the math on me so as to "show them a woman can do it!" She coordinates skilled-trade apprenticeship programs and keeps telling me I should become an electrician. "You'd make more money than you do as a secretary!" Yes, I know. I don't have any intention of being a secretary forever -- why do you THINK I'm in grad school?! And I don't want to be an electrician, or a junior high math teacher, or an engineer. I want to be a writer and either a high school or college English teacher/professor.

I am so furious with her right now. It's MY life. Mine mine mine. Of course! It never belonged to anyone else, except perhaps in your head...

She also, in a previous conversation, seemed to feel the need to tell me that I'm going to be a very difficult person to ever find someone for a lasting relationship and maybe I should just get used to the idea of being a single career woman. Argh. "Arg" is another one we like. I know she doesn't like the societal expectations of marriage (nor do I), but *I* want someday to make a home with someone, I want children, and I want my children to have two parents in the home. There is still the chance that it might be Mom1 and Mom2 rather than Mom and Dad, but I wouldn't intentionally become a single parent. And young as I am, there are moments I already feel the biological clock at work. Probably comes from being surrounded by people and info about people who already had a kid or two (or even three!) at my age and find this normal. Even my parents were married at 20, though they didn't have me until they were 28 (and as my mother has told me before, she wasn't sure she wanted me then -- I am the product of failed birth control, apparently).

Part of me still sometimes feels like a failure, that I made a commitment to someone and couldn't keep it. I know where some of that comes from. I'm bisexual. I don't need "one of each" but gender isn't a consideration for me when deciding who I'm interested in dating. I tend to date men, both because it's easier to find men interested in women than women interested in women and because most of my friends are male (and why would i want to date someone I wasn't friends with?), but if the right person happened to be in a female body that wouldn't bother me.

There are a lot of people who wouldn't have a problem with me if I were straight or gay, but who think that I'm automatically going to be a crazed sex fiend and cheat on anyone I date since I'm bisexual. In some ways, this has put pressure on me (both in this recent relationship and with my ex-gf) to stay long past the point when I thought I should go, because I didn't want to add fuel to the stereotype.

It's frustrating when my mother just refuses to "get" things. We had this out about my housemate about a year after I moved here, right before my ex and I got together. "Why can't you two just get married like normal people?" "Mom. He's gay. He doesn't want a woman." "Well, maybe he's not completely gay, and he seems to really care about you and I know how much you like his family." "But he's gay! He's my best friend and I love him to bits, and if he liked girls at ALL I might have married him. But he doesn't so that's that!" "But..." "Mom? It's not going to happen."

*wry smile*

Similar stuff about my religion. "I think religion does a lot of bad things, but if you had to get religious couldn't you have at least been Christian? It would save you a lot of trouble." "I appreciate your concern, but that's not my path." "Well, what do you get OUT of it?" [The ultimate impossible to answer question from someone who isn't religious; I get this one from my ex, too.] Etc. She's asking common sense questions. Calm down and try responding to her as though she was not your mom - maybe a stranger you just met.

Sometimes we have really good conversations, and she actually seems to respect me. Other times.... *shakes head*

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000

S1

Happy Saturday, everyone, and welcome to AJ and Teressa!

AJ, something you asked struck a chord with me. You asked if you are being controlling by wanting him to commit to you. In my opinion, absolutely not! You have a right to expect someone else to meet your standards, and if those standards include being faithful to you, then he should do that, or leave you alone! If he's trying to make you feel guilty, don't fall for it! Yippeee!

I have always had trouble not feeling guilty for "requiring" things of people. When I began teaching, I always felt a twinge of guilt every time I gave an assignment, or put a low or failing grade on a paper. When I graded, I did everything I could to justify giving undeserved points because I didn't want the student to feel bad.

Gradually I began to realize that I wasn't doing them any good by doing this; that while I can be fair, and take circumstances such as a learning disability, or a student who's just learning English into consideration, I need to give them an accurate assessment of their progress.

Where men are concerned--I never felt I really had any rights. I'm sure this was a result of my family background, where the women pretty much "put up and shut up." There was a feeling of powerlessness: If "he" doesn't want something, you don't get it. If "he" doesn't want to go, you don't go. If "he " wants to go, and you don't, you go anyway." Always the fear of making "him" mad, as though a man's anger was the most powerful force in the universe! Ick. Arg.

So, if I felt uncomfortable or offended by what the man in my life did or said, I usually kept quiet, or if I didn't my protests were helpless-woman in nature: crying, feeling depressed.

I'm working very hard to change that! In my present marriage, I'm setting some boundaries and everyday I have to screw up the courage to stick with them. I want my husband to work on understanding why he thinks and behaves the way he does, instead of blaming me for it. I refuse to get too close until he does, because I've been hurt one too many times. I feel guilty sometimes, but I know that's the "old" me who believes that because he's a man, I have to go along, and give him what he wants. No I don't! This is not about punishing him; it's about protecting me. This is what you are doing, I think; protecting yourself, and that's good! You are looking for reciprocity in your marriage. You deserve to get what you give.

I need to get off the computer and cook some dinner--I'm starved! Trout?

I'll check in later,

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000

S1

Dear AJ

Yes, I think you do understand what I meant. What I'm saying is that regardless of what your mother-in-law, sister or anyone says to you, don't be influenced by fear, or by what others think. It has to be the right decision for *you*, no-one else. If you're not quite ready, then don't rush.

Personally, I think that for any relationship to work there has to be a solid commitment by both partners to work things out. If you are still at the deciding stage I would suggest being honest to him that for you to commit to working things out, you need to know that he has the same level of commitment.

If you are afraid you might not be strong enough to "get out immediately" when things are turning nasty, then you might not want to jump back in too quickly. If he wants "all or nothing" from you (not that he necessarily does), then I would tend to suggest "nothing" until he can accept what you feel comfortable offering. i.e. perhaps rekindling the friendship, dating etc. until you feel more sure. The last thing either of you need is to be moving in together, then moving back out just as quickly.

<<<Am I to harsh in wanting a commitment? It is not that I expect, or even want him to move back in with me on any short notice. Just that I need his commitment to try, and if not, I feel I need to protect myself and get out again. Am I controlling in not wanting to be with him if he wants or needs total freedom?>>> S/he who controls themselves is not controlling.

I think that a commitment to working things out would be safer than a commitment to "forever" if that's what you mean. You aren't controlling in not wanting to be with him if he wants/needs total freedom - you are being *honest* to yourself. What do *you* really, sincerely want? Chances are if you feel like you are being controlling under these circumstances, you are putting his feelings above yours. Your feelings are important. And you won't do him any good at all by disregarding your feelings. Putting his feelings above yours is basically being dishonest to yourself and to him as well.

Yes, Steve is a very creative, ambitious thinker type, which is what I love about him. I've always thought that "tortured souls" are often the most interesting of us humans.

I'm learning that it does no good to try to "fix" people, and also, it's insulting to them! As well, I now refuse to allow pain to take so much of my energy. I have too much to do and to achieve in this lifetime to be wallowing in it!

take care AJ and good luck

AKasha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000

S1

Hi Astrid

It sounds like your ex does want to have his cake and eat it too. And unless there is a desire to change on his end, I would stand firm as you are doing.

<<He wasn't pleased with that, said that I "always" twist his words into things he doesn't mean that make him sound like a bad person.>>>

Probably because when you clearly tell him what he's doing, he feels like he *is* a bad person. That has nothing to do with you. Right Dr. Irene? Right. He is responsible for his feelings.

As as far as meds go, I am personally really wary of them. I wouldn't use them myself, but I haven't had a need to. I know that in some cases people have chemical imbalances which can be helped with meds, but I know a few people now who have used medication to numb their pain and went on to continue the same negative patterns. I just think that they may be best used as a "last resort" and I suppose every situation is different. St John's Wort might be okay if it's from a reputable company.

I prefer to use meditation, sometimes aromatherapy (really does seem to help me), reading books or helpful information, setting goals, and focusing mainly on negative self talk, catching it and consciously feeding in new more productive thoughts.

Astrid, it sounds like your mom's trying to "fix" you. Even doing some guilting, which probably would explain where your feeling of "failure" comes from. I think Dr. Irene's posts about not engaging probably apply here. Yes. Even "explaining" these things can add fuel to the fire as I've learned. What if you said something like "I appreciate your concern Mom, but this is my life and my choices and I would just ask that you respect them. I just want you to accept me as I am." Something like that, maybe? And just keep repeating it if she keeps asking for further explanation.

Becky:

I relate to your feeling guilty for "requiring things of people". I think this comes from being more aware of others feelings than we are of our own. And not thinking that our feelings are important. This is different than wanting to get your own way. It's knowing that something feels deeply right or not right, and getting to the source of that inner truth.

<<<I want my husband to work on understanding why he thinks and behaves the way he does, instead of blaming me for it.>>>

Little hint (what I've learned from Dr Irene): Stop wanting so much for your husband to work on understanding etc. and just work on you. Wasn't it a good lesson? It's much more productive for both you and him and it actually speeds up the whole process. i.e. rather than trying to press your ideas on his "healing" etc. work on what you can do for yourself to make life better and just let him be, unless he asks. Work on stuff like finding out what makes you feel safe, letting go of guilt, trusting your feelings and realizing that it's healthy to have some boundaries.

You mentioned something in an earlier post about a better after-life if you are a better person in this life. My philosophies on this are based on what Dannion Brinkley (sp?) ?? talks about in some of his books. He had 2 (or maybe 3?) near death experiences, when he actually flat-lined and was considered dead. He went through a "life-review" and felt all the ripple effects that impacted other from all the actions he had chosen to take during his life. I often think about this, and consider the "ripple effects" before I act.

By the way I had a wonderful dinner with Steve and my parents yesterday. We are progressing at what feels like a very comfortable rate for me. I am very proud of him for his choices over the past week. He is such a lovable person when he just lets himself feel, and lets things unfold naturally. People don't change old patterns overnight, but I do sense a real commitment to change from him, and that's important if we want a solid relationship in the future. Yay Steve!

Hi Dan - hope you're doing well, and not missing Lynn too much. Sometimes it can be nice to have time alone. Anyway, take care.

see you all later.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000

S1

Dear all. Thanks for the support

Dear Becky and Asha

Thanks for you comments. You know the funny thing is, I really think that C wants to commit, he doesn't want to run around and have total freedom. He just refuses to tell me so. He says he doesn't want any *rules* (which is one of the reasons I am afraid to be controlling, together with him telling me he is sooo afraid. Think I might be the bad gal, abusing, controlling all the time.) I am not quite sure what he means by rules. Every time I used to ask him about commitment he would get angry and say that I was imposing rules again. And really, imposing rules was as far from my mind as possible. But that's why I am very insecure about this This rule thing has been one of our major problem for a long time. I find it very hard to put a finger on it. Sometimes I really feel I used to put rules on him, like wanting him to be faithful, like asking him to help in the house, or asking him to tell me whether or not he might be home for the evening. But As I am learning about borders I think that I was maybe trying to draw lines for myself and he was just very upset about that. Also that his freedom is my captivity. Don't know really. I'd hate to be controlling, but I also feel I need to take care of me. Though line to walk. For all of us probably. Has anyone experience with this?

As for jumping right in again, I really don't want that. We did that twice before and, as you predicted Asha, jumped out again just as soon. So I do want to take things slowly this time, But I also know I cant be *just friends*. That for me would mean I would have the be happy if he found someone else to be with, I and won't. So no *just friends* for a while jet. It's either some sort of commitment or staying away from each other a while longer.

Dear Astrid, don't get mad at yourself for sleeping with your ex. But I think you're right to stop it, if you're sure you don't want him back anyway. And even if you would, it probably is not the right time, since he doesn't want to commit and you would get yourself in the same place as before again. Look who's talking. I slept with my ex lots of time after we where separated. Sort of thought that would magically make everything all right. :) Well, doesn't. You just get hurt more, cause its harder to keep your distance.

<<<I know somewhat how you feel about wanting to stay alone and stay angry. That's sort of where I'm at right now. Got a bit of a false sense of security going and that wasn't a good thing for me. >>>>>

Yes, I know. I wasn't even angry all the time, but it just felt good to be on my own and not having to think about what he might want for a change. But I know, it was a kind of false security too, like shutting him out of my world, I just refused to acknowledge he still existed I And I defenitly didn't want to acknowledge that he might not be as bad and horrible a person as I needed to make him right then. It's easier to keep your distance that way. But I know I can't keep that up forever, so I am very cautiously coming out of my casttle to see wether the war is still raging or if maybe we can discuss new borders between our king (queen) doms :).

As for the medicine discussion: I do think medication helps. You just have to be very wary not to become dependent. I used an antidepressant for maybe 3-4 weeks at a low dose and it really helped. It was sort of the push I needed to get back on my own two feet again. The way I see it is that when things like this happen to you, you get so stressed, that your biological system gets all confused. You brain chemicals are not in balance any more and all you do by taking medication is restoring the balance. After that you can do it on your own again. Another idea for plant medication: I take Melise tea (is this English?). ?? It works and it's more mild than St John's wort. As for meditation I totally agree with Asha. It helps. Problem is, that if you feel real bad it is hard to get in the mood. Anyone has any experience with Reiki? Can also be of help.

Keep up the good faith, all of you. Hope Lynn is having a wonderful Christmasgiving, with lots of love, gifts (I love gifts, doesn't matter what they are) singing and hugging. And Dan, hope your not feeling to lonesome. Missing is supposed to be good for the relationship (probably is)

See you all later.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the family.

I'm going a little stir crazy, here with Lynn gone. I'm kind of at a loss for what to do. I've got some Honey Do's which I am working on but I don't really seem to be making much headway. Danny Dan, did you find my pix for you on the home page?

I got some bad news last night, one of my nephews died. I didn't know him very well, but his father, mother and I are fairly close. It was strange because two of my younger brothers called to let me know. Our mother had called them and told them but didn't see fit to call me. She is always saying that she wished that we talked more often. I guess she lost my phone number again. Must be.

Lynn used to get hang up phone calls and when I asked her about them she denied it, and so I told her that I was going to have a tracer put on my line, the hang ups stopped and she told everyone that I had changed my number and hadn't given it to her. When I asked her about the number she told me, "I lost it."

I have been sitting here thinking about Danny and just what kind of man he would have been if he would have been raised in a functional family. Wishes are free. And Danny is now learning to reparent himself. Loving Danny is free.

I have accomplished two of my dreams, I've got a degree and I am working at a job which I love, although it isn't in my degree area.

My getting a degree as an educator is something which never occurred to me in my younger days. When I got out of high school there was no way that I wanted any more schooling. I did get a scholarship to an commercial artist school, I filled in one of those matchbook draw me ads, and heard from the school. I would have had to provide my own board and room but it just wasn't what I thought I wanted. After getting my degree, I signed up to substitute teach at my old high school. The first day I ran into an old teacher who asked if I was there about one of my children. I said that I only had one, in grade school and I was there to teach. He looked at me in amazement and said, "You, a teacher!" Gives you an idea what kind of student I was. Funny thing but when I started high school, I was making B's and C's, I quit at the end of my sophomore year, but went back. My grades after that were C's, D's and F's. I just didn't care what I got for a grade, I was just putting my time in.

Oh, I guess there is another accomplishment in my life, I swore that I would not spend any time in prison and I haven't. I have been in jail though, but not in the last 25 years.

As a kid and as a young man, I also swore that I didn't want any kids because I had raised my younger siblings, but I met my first wife who had a daughter, fell in love with them both. I adopted my daughter after about 1 1/2 years of marriage, and haven't had any regrets about doing so. The only thing is that I would like to be as close to her as I feel I am with Lynn's children. I'm sure that day will come, when she's ready.

I was doing a little putting stuff away and happened to glance at a collage of pictures of me that Lynn had put together. I always seemed to be smiling. I would like to know just what I've locked up inside that now it takes a lot for me to smile. Lynn has said that I'm to serious and that she hasn't seen me smile much with pure enjoyment until we got LOCO.

As I think about it, I guess that I have become a very serious person, I guess that I have forgot how to have fun.

I'm going to digress here for a minute, sometime in high school I started to enjoy drawing and felt that I was pretty good, thus the matchbook draw me ad. The funny (?) thing was that when I drew a self portrait, it was of the famous monster put together out of human body parts. I've always claimed that he was my mascot. Another picture that I drew a lot was a vulture. I thought that when I grew up that I would have it tattooed, I never, as a matter of fact the ideas of tattoos are for me a yes I would like one, no I wouldn't. Some days I am tempted, other days I ask myself what I'm thinking about.

Dear Astrid,

I know how you feel about teaching especially in an area which you aren't good at, for you and me, it's math. I always felt that if you didn't show an interest in a subject that the students would know and you weren't helping them or yourself. Stick to your own dreams even though it doesn't sit well with your mother. I know where she is coming from, because I went to school in the era that if you were a girl and showed an aptitude for math, everything was done to dissuade you from that interest. I took bookkeeping and typing in high school and most of the teachers were astounded that I would take electives such as those. Of course, I thought that they were easy classes and that is what I was looking for. Bookkeeping wasn't that easy either. I think that I got a D.

As for sleeping with your ex, don't kick yourself to much, just remember that we will slip, grab yourself by the seat of your pants, pick yourself up and walk down the path.

Dear Asha,

Glad that your dinner went well and that work is progressing. It sounds as though you have really made progress with who you are and what you want.

Dear Steve,

Way to go, and I hope that you will enlist our help, advice, and support whenever that you need it.

Dear AJ,

About your question to Lynn and I about my time in Nam and how to get C to open up about whatever he was through. There is no way that you can get him to tell you'll just have to wait. When he's ready, he'll talk about it. I still haven't told Lynn about a lot of my stuff on Nam, it's one of my inner issues that I have to deal with and that's when I'll be able to tell Lynn.

Please don't let others influence you on how to deal with C. Follow your own guiding light. You'll know what to do and when to do it.

Dear Becky,

I'm so glad that you are doing better and I can understand about giving of oneself to please others. I think that it is one of the hardest things not to beat oneself up over. To much and you soon lose your identity. I think that I have lost the art of truely giving and have turned it into taking and expecting. I expect that Lynn will do this or that because.......

Dear Dr Irene,

So glad that your giving feedback again, because there are days that I feel that I'm combating this I know that I'm on the right track reading your posts to us all.

Dear Trubble,

It's almost spawning season, so the salmon should be very tasty. I hope that you get your fair share. Thank you Daddy.

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000

S1

Hmm. Been a day of weird and off the wall conversations.

Mom called again. This time I didn't hang up on her, but the conversation took sort of a strange turn. She said "the more I'm around other people's kids, the more I appreciate what a good kid you were." On the one hand that feels like a compliment, on the other hand it makes me feel kind of icky. I'm not sure why yet -- maybe because I was "expected" to be "good" all the time? Weird. Stop looking for her approval; you don't need it. Maybe you expected you to be "good" all the time...

Also talked to my ex, who told me about something he did that I just thought was STUPID. I told him as calmly as I could, "that really wasn't a smart thing to do; burning your bridges isn't usually a good idea." Apparently, his last night at his old job that he was originally planning to take a leave of absence from for the semester, he lost it and said "F*** you!" to a customer who was aggravating him. And after I told him that I thought this wasn't bright, he said "I should have known you wouldn't understand and you'd yell at me!" Um??? I did not yell. I did not raise my voice. I told him it wasn't a bright thing to do, and he has a history of walking off jobs in various not-bright fashions. One of our earliest major fights was when he just stopped showing up to work, and lied to me and to his mother about it, and expected me to "poor baby" him after his mother caught him! I told him, just as calmly, "I wasn't yelling. I'm just saying that I don't think that's a good idea, and you have a history of that sort of thing. I know it's not really any of my business now, but you can't expect me to approve." This did not sit well.

He also felt the need to tell me all about how much fun he had getting stoned with his RA. Ah, college life. *smirk*

Talked a lot today to the bitter/cynical guy, who was last night running drafts by me of his final "do not contact me again" e-mail to his ex-girlfriend. (Long story, but I'm glad he did it. This chickie has far too many psychological problems -- she accused my friend of consorting with demons, for one thing, thanks to the influence of the guy she was cheating on him with.) He's doing OK, all things considered. I'm hoping it never comes to quite that point with my ex -- I hate to completely kick people out of my life, even when they annoy me. If I'd done that with my ex-girlfriend, I'd have lost a very important friendship.

Life is messy, but at least the cat box is clean and I have clean clothes to wear and clean dishes to eat off of. And I got sleep this weekend. :)

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, October 08, 2000

S1

Dan,

I'm sorry about your nephew. Us too.

Also, I'm curious: given that your experience in school wasn't all that great, why did you decide to become a teacher? I disliked school, was an average student who occasionally got an above average grade, had a small circle of friends, felt intimidated and nervous most of the time. I have my own thoughts about why I ended up working in an environment that I disliked for 12 years of my life, and would be interested in hearing your thoughts about yourself.

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000

S1

Hi all.

AJ:

<<Every time I used to ask him about commitment he would get angry and say that I was imposing rules again.... But As I am learning about borders I think that I was maybe trying to draw lines for myself and he was just very upset about that. Yes. Also that his freedom is my captivity... Has anyone experience with this? >>

Yes. I have. Ask yourself - do the "rules" you "impose" come from your ego or from your higher self? What will life be like for *you* if you don't "impose rules" (translation - set boundaries)? Do you have a right to ask to be treated well, to want give and take and mutuality? Be clear and honest with yourself. You don't sound controlling to me. My mistake was putting my H's feelings above my own. This did him no favors. Once I myself became clear on my own boundaries changes started to happen. If having boundaries isn't acceptable to him, then it's doubtful that the relationship will be acceptable for you either.

Dan:

You sound so sad. Cheer up!! Well okay, facing pain is important, I know. And when you are alone it's harder to escape it. But don't give that pain too much power, 'kay? Give yourself credit for all the work you are doing now. You should be proud. Besides all your pets need double the attention with Lynn gone! Yeah!

You said you wondered what you would have been like without the dysfunctional family, but I think the experiences that we have no control over are gifts from God challenging us to gain strength and knowledge.

<<<I think that I have lost the art of truly giving and have turned it into taking and expecting.>>>

Yes, but you are acknowledging that and I think that is wonderful! And from what I see on these boards, you are giving back now.

Becky - Astrid and I posted some stuff on the Buddha board which you might find of interest. Just thought I'd tell you.

take care all.

AKasha-Mommy

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000

S1

Dan:

I'm also very sorry to hear about your nephew. I'd forgotten that you said that when I posted. That explains why you're so down. Still, I hate to see you so sad.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, October 09, 2000

S1

Dear all,

Had a kind of interesting dream last night about a scorpion (C.'s astrological sign is Scorpio). There was a pink en apple green scorpion (strange coulors) in the house and I told my sister and mother to take care, cause scorpions could kill people. Then it was gone all of a sudden and popped up in the living room again. I remember saying in my dream, it must be some kind of ghost or demon to be able to do that. My mother picked up the scorpion and put it outside, didn't want to kill it and I agreed, sure it has a right to live too (usually I hardly ever agree with my mother, lot of anger there!). Then I too went outside and sat on top of a table, cause the scorpion was still there and I didn't want it to bite me. I was not afraid, just cautious. It bit me anyway. I wiped it away, got up and walked inside the house, saying, you'll have to call and ambulance cause it bit me. My mother said are you going to die now? I said don't think so, only black scorpions kill people. In the hospital they bandaged my foot and I asked the nurse: was it swollen very much. She said, no, you'll be OK, not a big problem. Cool: He bit you; it hurt; you took care of it and will be fine!

At first I thought: it's a warning, I have to take care, he'll bite me. Then I thought, I was feeling so peaceful, not afraid, and I did just what I had to do, didn't panic and everything really was OK. Then it felt rather good, like OK he may bite me, but even then, I'll know just what to do, and I'll survive and I can put boundaries without having to kill or hurt (like putting the scorpion outside without feeling the need to kill it. I also didn't feel anger when it stung)

C. called today to postpone our appointment. He had some work he needed to do in Paris urgently and would I mind very much. I said what if I would, and he answered: I wouldn't have take the assignment. So now I'll be seeing him Saturday. I don't really mind. Gives me a little more time to get used to the idea. And I did think it rather sweet that he would have cancelled his Paris-trip for me. (Getting soft already, am I? Well, I really don't mind postponing and it felt good having the power to let him stay for me and not using it.)

Dan, sorry about you nephew. People as young as that are not supposed to die, are they. It must be hard that your mother didn't see fit to call you. I suppose thing like that keep hurting, we keep trying to get blood out of a rock, don't we. Cheer up. Lynn loves you. Thanks for you're comments about the scary periods in C's past/ I know, I can't force him, don't want to anyway. He'll talk when he's ready, and he already did a lot of talking. It's just I have such a hard time understanding, because it's way out of my experience.

Asha, thanks for your input on the ‘imposing rules' question. I think you're right, I do need to set boundaries, because if I don't I'll just loose respect for my self. I used to run away when anyone said *booh* to me. Gradually I start realizing that there are no boundaries without conflict and that if I need and want to set boundaries I will have to accept the conflict. Don't feel very elated about the prospect though.

My sister just called and though I didn't want to tell her that I was going to see C., I just did when she asked whether I had anything to tell (just nicely asked). She reacted as predicted, said she didn't believe in him changing, that she really liked him, but felt he would just upset me again, but that I had to do what I felt I had to do regardless. It still made me doubt and I hate it when people make me doubt my decisions. Guess I'll have to learn and sit with that too, won't I Doc? You bet!

Love to all and happy, sun filled thoughts.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene

Don't tell Trubble this, but I think he has a Mommy/Daddy complex. Maybe because something bad happened to his real parents. I don't want to break his little heart though, so let's keep it to ourselves. Oh yes. You're right on target (as usual.) Read the blurb about when the as-yet un-named cat made his appearance on the site. He had a very hard life and a real identity crisis that was resolved somewhat here. It's good of you to be kind to him and indulge him, as long as he's not being destructive..

love AKAsha-Mommy ;)

Trubble - I *love* your Halloween costume - this has to be the best Trubble pic so far (laughing). And when Halloween is over, you can eat the costume!!! Giggle! I hadn't even though of that!

I just did a search on Akasha and Anne Rice to find out who this Akasha character is. Couldn't find it though. I used to tell Steve's kids I was a vampire. Still do sometimes. They were skeptical. Call me anything you want, just don't call me "Surely"... or "Kay". :)

take care everybody

Asha Maybe I'm remembering her name incorrectly, but it's something like that. Anyway, she is a very old and very powerful vampire in one of the later books. I'll have to check. Someday...

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000

S1

To all When I posted last night, I was upset about talking to my sister. She sort of got me into defending C. and saying that I thought he might have changed. I really felt upset about it, doubting myself very much. Them this morning I wake up and I realized I was upset, because in talking to her, it was all about him again, how he would act and feel. I so easily got into that again and forgot that the reason why I feel safe to see him is that I have changed, at that that's the point. It didn't even cross my mind to point that out to her. Just went on defending C.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000

S1

Dear Lynn,

B. here. I have been meaning to write you many times, but now that I've seen your GREAT Trubble & trout I really had to tell you how impressed I was.

As a matter of fact, while editing my posts for Dr. Irene to "publish", I omitted something that was of no interest to others, but it could be of interest to you: What started my becoming an interactive mail was your story! You remember that your posts begin with a post from Trubble? Well, mine should have been the first after that. I wrote you a long post about you and about the parallel with my story etc. etc. - and all of it got deleted, since I happened to send it while the Doc was editing. I got so upset that I had no energy to re-write everything I wrote to you. So I wrote Dr. Irene instead, telling her how my post to you got lost and all that. She answered me, and somehow my "board" emerged from this incident (I went and compiled older posts etc.). Funny world. :)

I've read your post again, and I plan to go read all the posts here, with your updates (quite a lot!). I'm really happy for you! And I think I feel the same change as you: how someone you've actually given up on, returns to become your true partner.

OK, I just wanted to say "way to go" and encourage you. And BTW, at the end of this month is my birthday. I'll be 39 :-) I can't believe it. Only yesterday I finished high school, you know? I also look in my twenties and have a young child, so I have this illusion that I'm "a young girl"... I do wish I had discovered all this when I was younger (as you said it), but I know it's a process, and I needed to live and learn all those years in order to learn more and more. I'm becoming a better person, and that's encouraging, even though it takes such a long time! I plan to be wise and "perfect" by the time I reach 70... Love, B. You are already wise. Purrrfect? Well...only cats uh...never mind. For those of you who don't know "B," I asked her to compile her posts because she struck me as one smart cookie with a healthy dose of common sense, which I'm partial to. The lady has so much sense, she was able to single-handedly turn her marriage around. Yippeee! Dr. Irene

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000

S1

Dear Trubble,

Have been thinking, cats are really great therapists. They can teach you a lot about self-esteem and boundaries. Me thinks God put cats into the world just for that. And to eat Salmon of course. And Trout. By the way Lynn, about the cat boxes, you said in your initial post that you could clean them yourself. Sure you can, but if you can have someone else do it.....think twice before leaving. :) Hey, I don't care which one of you guys cleans it; as long as it's clean.

Dear dr. I, thank you for your comments. I know, C. wants what he can't get, he likes yoyoying. He once said he needs to miss me. I've never before set any real boundaries or even told him what I wanted. Like Becky I just felt that his anger would mean the end of the world . I did set boundaries once or twice the past year and at the time it worked out great. For instance he would be very good at not making a definite appointment, just said something like: I might drop in on Saturday. I once said: either we have a date, or we don't and if we don't and you decide to drop in, I just might not be there. We set the date, and he came, looking his best and all loving and nice words. So I know it worked to be clear and withdraw a little and set boundaries. Though at the time I had no idea that was what I was doing and I just didn't know then that I would have to do it all the time!!! Frankly, I don't think I want to do for the rest of my life, but I know I have to be absolutely firm and clear for now. And being clear to him also helps me to be clear to myself about what I really want and need. Yes. And setting boundaries is good for yourSelf - but it also creates a space for him to fix himSelf. Win-win, you know?

About the Melise, I found out in English it's officially called Lemon balm and it really works, so do Lavender and Rosemary (take care with Rosemary if you have a high blood pressure though.)

He Theresa and Steve, where are you?? Yeah! And Dan? And David?

Astrid, about your mother: She's like mine I guess. Nothing you ever do is quite good enough and all your choices have to be debated. I also always feel very defensive around my mother, even when she doesn't overtly say anything annoying. Just waiting for her to start at it again. Take care and stay close to your own feelings, no matter what Mom says (you can listen to MommyDoc 1 & 2 though if you feel like it :))

Dear Asha, I absolutely think you're right about Trubble's Mummy/Daddy complex, but I'll promise to keep it quiet. Think it's contagious? Nope. By the way, where does your story start? I read most of the old posts, but I have an idea that you were here before before posting at Cat box.

B., Ah, I think as for the ‘wise', you'll make it before 70.....Perfect, you'll probably never be. Hope it isn't to big a put down.

Funny thing, you're probably all sleeping when I am writing and vice versa. Glad the world isn't that small after all. Love to all (and me too :))

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000

S1

Anyone care to summarize the last two months of posting on this thread? What is a "can box" anyway? :)

David