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Comments for Catbox 44

Comments for Catbox 44

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyrightę 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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44 Edited and 43 FINALLY edited, including a message for Jeannie

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

HI all,

I am a bit confused as yesterday there was a catbox 44 with nothing into it and now there is no way in-not on page 43 anyway!

Mousie, If you do have epilepsy you may be able to learn to control it to some extent - It depends on if you actually just have fits. Some people have "auras" a feeling or warning that they get before they fit. Also I think that you can do a lot by starting to notice when you get worked up.....it could be a part of the epilepsy but when I worked in a children's hospital it was sometimes the ignoring of bad behaviour that caused the child more problems than anything else - the sick child was never corrected as mum and dad felt so sorry ...It led to a lot of suffering for the child ...so you might need to check out where your behaviour comes from and whether you can be taught to get a handle on it.

I sympathize with the medicines but we can also continue habits that started with medical side effects - yes I know about a drug making you suicidal as it happened to me, but the behaviour can continue long beyond the drug. I think because of the way we form habits and pattern match our previous experience - it took me ages to figure that suicidal thoughts happened when I got no attention. And I am not over that yet... but the pattern of returns does diminish... I seek help faster now and so it gets sorted quicker. But the drug can't still be to blame for everything - even if I continue to get the 'electric shocks' that come with some peoples withdrawal from seroxat.

Feeling you are in charge of you is a better feeling I think than feeling out of control (I really did feel out of control).

I am not a Dr however and so I don't know what a doctor would think.

OH well. I got through yesterday and although the day was awful Jake was better in the evening and he did eat the pizza and like it. I presume so as he had a second helping...

I am a little confused though....not big time. Yesterday I thought "I was happier being codependent." "I want this to continue and I do love him ": He was making it clear it was over.....but we are not apparently parting, still....

I guess the best thing is to put all my energy into where I can and just hope we get back into working it out...make my own changes.....make my own life. I think the longer I let myself be down and ill the worse it will be. Yes! I am not sure if you can 'choose to be well' - not if it is physical or even if it is psychological, but I think you can make the choices to get the best out of whatever........ Yes.

So I am still taking down time to look after me. .I have noticed that actually now I'm more selective.  I have had the energy to give more to certain people........and I have felt ok about backing off and taking time for me if I can't do or handle it. I am also asking others properly for help now - yesterday I leaned hard on whatever I could and I did survive.... 

Someone pointed out to me yet again I have suffered the most awful stuff and I am still standing.....some of my friends are also realising I need them to be 'there' for me when I am not saying it all, which helps...hard to be on the receiving end; but it feels good to let myself be cared for without the guilt...... 

Love, Jay

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

I can see how Steve felt about his dog. Who's to say whether it was better to call the vet or not? I mean, MAYBE the vet could have done something... IF he got to it before it was all over... one way or the other. Or MAYBE his dog would have died without the vet's help. Steve would have been with him all the same. Anyway his dog didn't die. What about the down side?... If Steve was sure the vet couldn't do much, what's to gain from calling him? What's to LOSE from calling him? Maybe his dog gets taken away for treatment in that sterile clinic, and dies without Steve there... Or maybe there's someone in that clinic who can't stand to see the poor dog suffer, their problem not Steve's. Maybe they put his dog to sleep without permission, then tell Steve "sorry, your dog died." You can't always trust people not to do that with animals. Now and then you can't trust them not to do it with PEOPLE either... Or maybe they start pushing on Steve and guilting him to have his dog put to sleep, and in a moment of weakness he gives in. All that is stuff Steve would kick himself for afterwards, so why risk it? What if he didn't give in? It's still a big hassle arguing with people about it, wasting energy trying to put all his feelings and wants into words and doing battle with all THEIR emotional stuff, while he's under stress and having enough trouble dealing with his own emotional stuff about his dog and all. So why bring outsiders in at all and make things more complicated? Leave 'em out, that's the best way.

Lots of creatures have that instinct. When I'm hurt, leave me ALONE to heal. Don't bother me. That's all Steve was doing, taking care of himself, by himself, and taking care of his own dog the best way he knew how. He wasn't trying to make anyone else take care of his stuff. I don't see anything wrong with that. It was awkward for Asha to be around the dog when it was in pain, but didn't Steve take care of that in the end by taking his dog away? Asha still has a problem if she's still taking care of the dog. So why not get creative? Swap apartments, you guys! Then you can both keep your own space while Steve takes care of his own dog in Asha's old apartment, and Asha's free. All it takes is a Uhaul truck...

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

IN CASE I CAN'T GET DR IRENE TODAY- I just looked at Jeannie's board -  you have to be over 18 to get into it and I have just read an abusive and hostile post there from Mousie- it is offensive in the extreme towards the catbox and I strongly suggest that we ignore any further posts from Jeannie/Stormy or Mousie (more fool me earlier). Dr Irene I hope that this is the right think to do-Jeannie's site contains a link to this one. I do not wish personally to engage with either of these people any more. (Dr Irene can delete this if she thinks I got it wrong - I don't advise looking for Mousie's post why spend the day on that when you can have a rather better one without.) Jay

Is this the post you meant Jay:

From: Dr? Mousie  (Original Message) Sent: 6/30/2001 8:48 AM
After a visit to Dr. Irene's Litter Box I was blipped and informed that I am intimidating and hostile.  Well I was just teasing what I thought was a cartoon cat.  I didn't mean anything personal but after stopping by today and reading the rest of your posts, it's now personal and I'm going to show you the true meaning of the word hostile because I'm now more hostile than ever (if according to your hostility rating scale that is possible).  You may have issues with me,  but if you litter sucking cat butt licking bunch of watered down Dr Irene politically correct clones ever put down Stormy again for sticking up for her friends,  I'm  gonna tear you out a new a^^hole to match the ones you already are.  I also think your beating Mel into submission of your concept of appropriate controlled behaviour by using an abuse technique called abandonment is justification to tell you that you need to clean up your own back yard before you call someone controlling inappropriate and abusive.  Yes I am now hostile and you can't blip it away.  It's real  it's honest  and I didn't feel it until I engaged or (whatever you call it ) you bunch of  "everybody is sick that doesn't write like us or agree with us"  So just step outside that cat hole and take on Mousie and Krissi  where you can't hide your own hostility and controlling behaviour under a PHD or pretense of being in total control because you read some book and followed some steps.  So just go on holding it all in and take it out on the next person that posts on your board because you are afraid of crossing boundaries which you reserve for outsiders that don't conform to your mold.  Yes it did smell moldy over there.  Oh and by the way,  I hope the wench that had to scroll over all my posts (which weren't anywhere near as long as her mini sob novel) broke her damn fingernails.  Go run back and tattle to Dr Irene about that nasty abuser that is now totally out of control because we continued to beat up her and her friends even after she apologized.  Well the apology is now revoked and you can kiss my Whole MousieButt!!    Love and Hugs  Mousie  Oh I am a new person who is growing after reading your wonderful loving site called a Litter Box that is supposed to be taken seriously because we all have a wonderful sense of humor and don't believe in abusing and controlling others

I guess this whole crew is going to be blipped Jay. I don't have the time, energy or inclination to deal with this stuff. Bottom line: this is not the place, though I sincerely hope Mousie et all find a place to help them, if that's what they want. BTW, why would I delete your post? There is no problem with expressing your opinion; no problem if we don't agree. My peeve is with attacking others, which has nothing to do with disagreeing with them.

 

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

Dear Anonymous Poster

I think what you mentioned above probably was very likely what Steve was thinking (only he can say for sure tho). Something I just noted was that a phone call to the vet means something very different to him than to me. #1 I feel I can *trust* the vet and that the experience would be positive and would give me information. #2 I know I can go to the vet, get information, and still refuse “treatment in the sterile clinic” if I so choose.

I think you could be right about Steve needing to deal with his emotional stuff alone.

<<It was awkward for Asha to be around the dog when it was in pain, but didn't Steve take care of that in the end by taking his dog away? >>

It was the way it was done that I found hurtful. When he drove off, he didn’t allow me the opportunity to say goodbye to the dog. When I went to talk to Steve through the window (to tell him I wanted to give the dog a hug goodbye), he wouldn’t look at me or acknowledge me. Finally, I walked away. I felt very hurt. He was angry Asha. Why are you taking Steve's anger personally? When they came back, and were about to drive off again, I opened the hatchback and gave the dog a hug without asking.

Finally, apartment swapping won’t work for me. I live in a house and have my own dog. I don’t know whether Steve will bring the dog back here or not (his ex lives in another city and that's where he is now). If he does, it puts me in a difficult position because I don’t think I can deal emotionally with much more of this. So don't I could easily say no, but it's the dog's well being that concerns me. Your own well-being must concern you more.

I am also feeling uneasy because of a brief conversation I had with Steve the other night about something unrelated. A comment I made (which was meant to be supportive) was apparently taken as an attack, since he walked out again without saying goodbye.

I’ve pretty much had all I can take of these walk outs. I agree that Steve needs to look after his emotional well being, and maybe that’s all he can do to cope. I also need to look after my emotional well being, and that means I don’t want to subject myself to this, if I there are ways I can avoid it. I have feelings too, and I feel hurt and frustrated when he misinterprets me, accuses me, ignores me etc. My support and compassion for his feelings have a limit. If being supportive to him comes at my own expense, then I too have to withdraw. 

thanks

Asha 

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

Dear Dr Irene. It may have been - once I realised what was happening I just skimmed and came out of the site to write to you.

I really don't have time to waste reading stuff that offends me or my friends.

Or that offends me written about me or anyone I know...

For those who still entertain a particle of sympathy - I guess the people Dr Irene is talking about will one day be ready to learn, but today is not the day.

Jay   I think they're a bunch of young kids who are very angry... So be it.

 

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

Amy,

Thanks for your words of encouragement. Tried to post this under the "Death of a Dream" posts, but it keep hanging every time.  I copied it there for you.

I have my good days, and bad days. Right now I am in the grieving process. I've tried to be kind and empathetic to my STBX, but anytime he calls, all he is does is throw out blame towards me and our son. When he starts swearing at me on the phone, that's when I say, "I'm not going to listen to you talk to me like that, and then I say 'goodbye'", and hang up. OK.

Friday was tough, as he was served with the RO and divorce papers. When I came home, he had an officer at the house, so he could get his stuff out of the garage. He looked so angry as he was loading his van. You see, in his world, we are the enemy. He has been telling his buddies that me, and our son, are the violent ones. Then I start "beating myself up" for pushing him away, even though it was fear, and not anger. Good: you see you beat yourself up. Now you can stop yourself from doing that. He's the "nice guy", passive and so giving to the rest of the world, but dumps all the "not so nice stuff" on his family. He just doesn't see it that way, and I have to accept that is his reality right now (denial?), and I am working to not worry about what other people think, since they didn't live with him. Right. There have been a few other witnesses to his "craziness". Even so, I just sat in the house and cried. We gave him the support and encouragement to work on his issues, but apparently we are not worth it, as denial is his main coping tool.

He finally called our daughter after 1 month, but she said "he sounded weird" on the message. She called me at work very upset he didn't ask about her brother. This apparently is his new way of "hurting". The sad thing is, now it's only going to push her away, cause she even said, "I want a relationship with Dad, but not until he gets help. I can't talk to him if he's going to be that way". As everything I say is discounted, I told her to write a letter about how she feels, and we can put it with his mail. It may not change anything on his part, but I think it will help her feel better. Amazing...they are stronger with their boundaries than I am, but I'm getting there, one day at a time.  They don't have the self doubt and guilt you do. That's what you've got to work on!

L

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

HI Jay and Doc,

I read that post too from Mousie. It seems like that other site, the X-rated one, is a better place for her. I am sorry I am not as understanding as Stormy and Kris but I don't find a single funny thing in her posts. I would put her post under "Symptoms of Abuse" as Example #1. Wishing her well, but apologies only go so far. I like the kindness of the Catbox, however PC, and I would prefer to see it continue unscratched. We are all trying to learn something other than what Mousie dishes out; been there, had THAT.

I posted this nice post and it never went, then I lost it to the nether world of my computer. Jay, how was your anniversary? Was that the pizza night? In my vanished post, I suggested that you celebrate anyway and buy yourself a silver something or other. Celebrate the product of the 25 years: HKK! I figured Jake would show up for his own anniversary even if he celebrated in his own current half-assed way.

Seattle Becky, you WILL get to the point where you stop wishing your guy would change. But first you have to accept that he won't ever change. As Dr. Irene has said, acceptance is your only sane choice. It's kind of liberating. For me, it was freeing to accept that my ex didn't love *me* enough to change because that let me off the hook, to go on with my life and be with people who DO love me. If I felt like he didn't love HIMSELF enough to change, I would feel sorry for him and being codependent I would try to build the poor puppy's self-esteem up, so he could change and we could live happily ever after, etc if you catch my drift. It won't happen that way. I have spent a lot of time hoping and wishing my "otherwise wonderful guy" would change, and to my horror I have even spent time RECENTLY wishing and hoping! But it gets really easy once you just let go of that and just know in your heart that the guy will not ever change, sad as it is.

I think everything I was going to say in that other post about Steve's dog has now been said. Better that Steve should have an apartment that allows dogs. Since that must not be possible, better not to use the dog as another issue - must let go a little, Steve - it's only fair to Asha that if she is caring for the dog she has to be able to make emergency decisions without dealing with huffiness - work out emergency contingencies in advance?

Sharon, I am in the US!! I think they have personals in Brazil but where I live I can't imagine ever needing to make friends that way! For a few weeks, though I am in the land of cheese and lakes stuffed with fish, Trubble. Don't cats like cheese too? Or is that only WEIRD cats? Trubble, you should come and visit me, even if I am a craven dog lover. Traitor! I like cats too. I used to have a job where I gave cats BATHS for my daily bread. So come see me Trubble, and you will go home clean and stuffed with good cheese!

Love, Perdida... please higher power, let this post go thru...

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Sunday, July 01, 2001

Sorry, I'm confused. None of this makes sense to me.

I thought we were supposed to disengage from abuse. Who'd care if Mousie is spouting a load of obscenities on some other web site? Nobody would care at all if they couldn't hear her in the first place. If a tree fell in the forest, and all that. So why draw anyone's attention to it? Announcing it publicly and then advising people not to waste their time reading it is very disingenuous when we know anyone who's curious will immediately go running over there to look. Which is fine; your right to go look; your right to announce your opinion. Then people start taking sides and whipping up ill feeling. Why should anyone do what manipulative Mousie wanted them to do: tattle tailling? There's been too much of that in the Catbox already. Why not ignore Mousie's droppings completely, stay disengaged right from square one, and let as many people as possible do the same, instead of stirring up trouble? Let the tree in the forest fall where it may, but let it fall by itself.

If it was a waste of time for anyone to run over there and read Mousie's rant, at least Dr. Irene saved them the time by posting it here. Still, I'm puzzled about that too. I thought offensive material didn't belong in the Catbox. It seems Mousie already made one offensive post that got wiped. Sorry if I'm puzzled, but it seemed a waste of effort to me to wipe one offensive post and then go surfing over the web to find another one to replace it with. It seemed easier to leave the first one there. None of this tells me any more than I know already, that Mousie's an angry woman with a grudge against all psychotherapists. I wiped so many derogatory posts that Mousie et al, apologies, attacks, explanations, etc., that I wanted readers who missed them to get an idea of the rage involved and why these posts were getting blipped.

The big deal is that I thought we were all supposed to be responsible for our own behavior, and everybody else was supposed to be responsible for theirs. If Mousie's got the attitude she has, anyone can see she's not going to get any benefit out of this web site, so there's no point letting her disrupt people here. But why blame Jeannie, or ban her, let alone additional members of some unnamed crew? Who is blaming Jeannie? Once again, people are not blipped; disruptive posts are. I've never seen Jeannie behave disrespectfully here, and she's given a lot to this site. She's not responsible for what Mousie says. Jeannie's trying hard to keep all of her friends together, that's all, not let them get split up into "sides." She's been using her web site to advertise this one too. As for the crew, there are other members of that crew posting on these boards who are very much in need of the support, and have never had anything to do with any of these fiascos. That's how the ripples spread out when we start blaming other people for what one individual did. Mousie could learn from that too.

fma

 

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Dr Irene

You said: Why are you taking Steve's anger personally?

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean, but I don’t think I am taking it personally. That is; rationally I know it has nothing to do with me. Still, I hurt. I can deny that that’s true (I know you wouldn't ask me to do that), or I can acknowledge it, while not ‘acting out’. I can probably learn to hurt less as time goes on, but I think the hurt is there as a signal – is it not? Of course. But you don't live together; you've toned down your relationship. His "stuff" should not be so important anymore - unless, of course, you have not toned things down or you are hoping things will somehow change...

I don’t think my goal is to stop ever feeling hurt – just to reduce it’s impact on me, and to listen very seriously to what it is telling me. (Maybe I haven't taken it seriously enough in the past?) You had not indeed. So you two broke up. Why are you still giving him so much power?

If I try to imagine ‘not feeling hurt’ in that situation, (which is really difficult) I could only visualize a circumstance where Steve meant so little to me that his anger or happiness meant nothing; basically, that I didn’t care about him at all. Try to imagine this instead: Here he goes again. Oh well. Glad I'm no longer in the thick of that!  In other words, disengage emotionally...

Under normal circumstances it would probably be a good time to cut our ties completely. We still work together, so I have to sort my feelings out, but I think what I’m seeing from this is that I need to detach from him in a much bigger way in order to not hurt so much.

I also know that part of this has to do with my feelings of loneliness and isolation. Bingo. That would be one reason why you would be likely to "hang on." That also tells me you haven't yet learned to be alone - which is very different from being lonely and isolated... In other words, you've got some work to do.

Steve didn't bring the dog BTW.

thanks

Asha

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Although I've been on line for just over a year, I'm still pretty much a novice when it comes to using message boards and chat rooms. In fact, the ones on this site are the only ones I use. I've visited message boards on other types of sites and tho I'm interested in the subject matter, don't post because of the sometimes disrespectful combative tone of some of the posters.

If someone is asked to alter the tone of their posts, and they respond with vindictive diatribe, that tells me something about what they and their being here are all about. If Mousie wants to spew venom and call it humor, she is free to go where that sort of behavior is tolerated. IMO, if she feels so good about herself and her "style," she wouldn't lash out in defense; but simply move on.

I also need to say this: those of us who have been around the CB for awhile, understand that this is a place where much hard work is done; where compassion and support are the rule, and straight talk is a requirement.

There! I've gotten my 2 cents in! Becky Thanks Becky.

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Funny how the site always seems to have server problems when I'm having a crisis that involves Steve. Is it the universe trying to tell me something? :) Giggle!

This may show up twice or not at all, but I'll give it a try again anyway.... Since I answered this above, I'll delete the re-post.

 

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Perdida, Thanks for your kind words- I hadn't thought of getting anything - it was just the date that got to me and the fact it was what it was - I think cheese causes problems for cats? I had a dog that liked cheese when I was young though - maybe Steve and AJ can tell us! - or Trubble---giggle now this is nice just to spend the morning where the chief worry is if a cat is safe eating cheese or not. I LOVE cheese! Hi everyone else no time to write anymore as I have managed to construct a busy day - giggle -How can I get to two places I have agreed to be at the same time at once. I want to be at both and yet not offend two people! Ah well, I will just take the day as it comes, jay

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Monday, July 02, 2001

GIGGLE_- I just found out why I got that strange email telling me to check the site out! Not God, angels, or even Trubble! Somehow I must have clicked the bit that says Like this Site? Tell a Friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jay Hey, just how do you know? Just because you've explained it away, somehow it didn't happen just when it was supposed to?

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi All,

This is for Asha and Steve,

Why do I know this? Because I am going through it, so I do know what is happening with you two.

Here's my two cents:

Do you two remember last year or maybe not that long ago when I talked about DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, different sets of glasses, seeing different things purely because they have different histories, experiences and perceptions?

OKAY It is Asha's choice if she takes care of the dog, that is fine.

It may be easier if Asha took care of the dog for everyone else but it is Asha's choice (which should be made without guilt).

Asha why is it you don't want to mind this dog REALLY? Deep down do you feel that in the past you've had no choice but to take care of others?

Do you feel you've been put on allot and now you are gonna make sure no one puts on you now?

REMEMBER if you choose to or not to mind the dog it is your choice since it would be using up some of your energy.

If you feel deep inside that you have enough to do already and so can't mind the dog, that is fine!

Though I'd dig deeper. Does it have anything to do with the fact that Steve's ex it feels is putting her responsibilities, her dog, on to you?

I too at times feel angry and unhappy when I feel others are putting their responsibilities on to me.

THAT IS When I truly have to sit with my feelings, journal them, ask myself questions, to get to the whole truth. If it turns out it is because I feel that in the past others have used me. THEN I need to list all of these people and the way they used me. Then I will write how I would now handle these people set limits, detach etc.

When I have processed all of this, I sit and ask myself what limits I need to set if I am to mind this dog. SUCH as authority over giving him pain relief. If I am given responsibility for him then I expect to have some authority.

I might say I will mind the dog between xxx hours and then it goes to Steve's such as I will mind him during the day however, he has to go to Steve's at 7pm etc.

WHEN we set limits/boundaries we don't feel used.

CAN YOU TWO, Asha and Steve also just accept the way each of you responds, sees things, interprets things without feel you need to correct each other.

WHEN you do this you see the way the other really thinks, where they are up to in their growth, (without judgment), WHO THEY ARE AT THIS PRESENT. (Accept this)

THE DOG whether it be Asha's dog or Steve's kids dog symbolizes a lesson you both need to learn. THE SAME ONE MY KEYS REPRESENTED.

The lesson Acceptance of the other without judgment, blame, just accepting how the other sees their reality, this will show you what stage in growth each of you are.

SO KEY WORD ACCEPTANCE. 

I am going through this myself.

Take care Theressa

PS You are both right in your own realities, no need for anyone to take sides. Remember all conflict is about convincing others which is a waste of BOTH YOUR energies. Just accept others have a different take on things!!!

 

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Kathy,

What has your family meant to you in the past?

Have you been a close family? Were you ever the fixer in the family, the hero, people pleaser, the sweet little daughter who did as she was told?

Dig deep, what did your family mean to you when you were growing up?

What formed did it take?

Did you always save your brothers, or try to help them?

Did you get treated like their little princess, and they protected you?

THIS IS YOUR FIRST JOB find out what your family meant to you, only then will you know the true message. ALL THE ANSWERS are inside, you have to dig for them like this.

Then we will talk some more! 

Take care Theressa

 
Monday, July 02, 2001

Good Morning; I am glad to say that the weekend is behind me and over. It wasn't exactly terrible, but not great either.

As expected, M. didn't ,make it over Friday evening. His first (and only real visit since moving out) was Thursday. He told me then (with great confidence) that he would be over on Friday evening. M. said that he was coming directly here from work. That he didn't want to be around his sister, brother, nephews, (drunken family, et al) on Friday night. I was not terribly excited at the prospect of his arriving on Friday night, because I really didn't believe that he would ever make it here. (I AM learning! Blessed are they that expect nothing from an alcoholic, for they shall not be disappointed). Friday at 4:00,M. left a message on the voice mail. "Karin, it's too late. I'm already drinking...LONG PAUSE...I don't know what to do (to stop drinking? About coming over? Beats me.) Maybe I'll see you tomorrow....And I really do love you." (This is love?) I am glad to say that this message didn't devastate me. (2-3 yrs. ago it would have.) I had a nice dinner with the kids, went in the pool, let my daughter have a friend spend the night (something that didn't work when M. was here. What if he came home drunk and she had a friend over? What if he came home wanting to drink and they drove him crazy, so easy to do when he WANTED to drink. )I went to bed early and enjoyed the security of knowing that M. wouldn't be staggering in during the night, waking everyone and picking a fight. Saturday morning I shut the ringers off on the phone. Not to punish but because I knew M. would call and I didn't very sure of how to deal with him. I wasn't angry at him, but I wasn't up for him "visiting" and then coming here to sleep it off in the a.c. while the kids and I stayed quiet because "he had a rough day on the job Friday" (Rough night at the family flop house is more like it!) M. called at 9:00a.m and had the nerve to leave me a nasty-gram on the voice mail. He said he didn't f------ appreciate me "playing games with him by not answering the phone." And I had "no right to keep him from little M." (Apparently he sees me here waiting for his calls. I wasn't aware that not picking up the phone was a mental game. Guess so. However, saying that you will be over and getting drunk instead "just happens". Maybe I should start telling him that I wasn't ignoring his call, I was drunk. Giggle! Apparently that's an acceptable reason for being unavailable. He showed up at the house an hour later and told me that he and his nephew (grown man, no job, no vehicle, lives with family...can you guess if this nephew drinks?) were taking little M. to visit M.'s family at his sister's house. (Fleas, chronic head lice, thick child protective services file, many drunks under one roof, definite marijuana use, rumored heavier substances). M. was furious when I said no. He told me that he would have little M. back in a few hours. He said it would be o.k. because everyone there was very hung over and wouldn't be drinking till evening, so it was a "safe" time for him to take little M. over there! After M. stomped out, I am sorry to say that I had GUILT PANGS for keeping little M. from spending time with his father. WHY?? I know that no child has any business at that house. Because you have some irrational thinking habits. You can clear them up with clear, logical thinking. .If they had any interest in meeting little M., they were always welcome at our home sober, but they never in 2 1/2 yrs. sobered up and came to see him. I'm sure that they wanted a very noisy active toddler around as they nursed their hangovers! M. called again Sunday morning, very calm and friendly, said he'd like to come over and spend the day, sleep here, and go to work from my house this morning. ("We need to talk," he told me. (Also, could he do laundry here? His sister doesn't have a washer anymore.) I told him he could visit, we would talk%2

   

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Amy-

Thanks for your words of encouragement.

I have my good days, and bad days. Right now I am in the grieving process. I've tried to be kind and empathetic to my STBX, but anytime he calls, all he is does is throw out blame towards me and our son. When he starts swearing at me on the phone, that's when I say, "I'm not going to listen to you talk to me like that, and then I say 'goodbye'", and hang up.

Friday was tough, as he was served with the RO and divorce papers. When I came home, he had an officer at the house, so he could get his stuff out of the garage. He looked so angry as he was loading his van. You see, in his world, we are the enemy. He has been telling his buddies that me, and our son, are the violent ones. Then I start "beating myself up" for pushing him away, even though it was fear, and not anger. He's the "nice guy", passive and so giving to the rest of the world, but dumps all the "not so nice stuff" on his family. He just doesn't see it that way, and I have to accept that is his reality right now (denial?), and I am working to not worry about what other people think, since they didn't live with him. There have been a few other witnesses to his "craziness". Even so, I just sat in the house and cried. We gave him the support and encouragement to work on his issues, but apparently we are not worth it, as denial is his main coping tool.

He finally called our daughter after 1 month, but she said "he sounded weird" on the message. She called me at work very upset he didn't ask about her brother. This apparently is his new way of "hurting". The sad thing is, now it's only going to push her away, cause she even said, "I want a relationship with Dad, but not until he gets help. I can't talk to him if he's going to be that way". As everything I say is discounted, I told her to write a letter about how she feels, and we can put it with his mail. It may not change anything on his part, but I think it will help her feel better. Amazing...they are stronger with their boundaries than I am, but I'm getting there.

Part 2:

My STBX called me at 5:15AM this morning. Thinks he broke his nose playing baseball with some friends last night. We actually had a nice talk, and he thanked me for picking up the phone. I felt like crap not offering to go to the hospital with him, even though I told him I hope he's okay, and to take care of himself. I then had a crying spell....He knows I've always been there for him, but he made his choices, denying that he needs help, that it's everyone else, not him. Now he has to deal with it. If I ran down to the hospital, I would once again be the "rescuer", and I know I can't go there. That and I remembered that one time I had to drive myself to the hospital because he didn't want to get up. That is what is keeping me from going.

He's pulling on my heartstrings again...It's so hard right now, but I know this is the "Jekyll" phase, and "Hyde" is just around the corner.

I don't know what else to post, except I really needed to get this off my chest right now. I'm not trying to feel sorry for myself, but this sucks. :(

L

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Monday, July 02, 2001

This is a test. I posted on Saturday, don't see the post. I guess Trubble is eating those posts again. Not Trubble this time. Yours truly and the server both messed up.

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Theressa....Kathy here.

I'm thinking about your post for sure now, since it is in the catbox several times!!! Maybe I needed to see it that many times in order to get me to think it over and respond to it! So there was a reason for the multiple posts! Glad you saw them before I cleaned it up.

In my family, I am the oldest. And after the deaths of my two sisters, I am the only girl. I have 4 brothers. Yes, I was the "self-proclaimed" fixer in the family. Always trying to make things right for everyone. And of course, failing miserably.

I was my mother's confidant - she always complained to me about my father (who like most daughters, I adored). So I listened to her endless complaints about him just because I was the "dutiful" daughter.

Two of my brothers are mentally ill or something. They were diagnosed as ADD or ADHD but I really believe they are bipolar. All I remember is that they were just wacky and out of control while I was growing up.

As you can picture, my family was very dysfunctional. We went to counseling for a while but it never worked. Nothing ever changed.

I joined the US Army when I was 17 and left. It was the best thing I could've done for myself. I was gone 9 years before I moved back (6 in the Army, 3 living in another state).

I saw my brothers more when I was living away than I do now that I live in the area. That's why I thought it strange last week that I would have contact with 3 out of the 4. I think its some sort of message from God that I should be paying more attention to my mom and brothers.

I'm doing better this week. My daughter is back at her friends' and my van is running so things are quiet at home and I feel independent and able to get around again. I think last week was an exam and I didn't really want to be tested so went into it with a bad attitude. I am OK though - made it through. Hopefully this will be a quiet and uneventful week.

Kathy

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi all, I am new to this site.. I think I have read everything in the last two days. It's been a month since I ended things with my whacked boyfriend. Finally came to see just how twisted things were. For the last year we have dated, it has been a constant cycle of him picking fights, we don't talk for a few days........... then we make up.... things are great for a few days.. then BAM another fight. He is paranoid about me cheating on him and anything triggers this fear. Once in the beginning of the relationship when WE were able to date others............ he stood me up for a date (well he was two hours late, seems his ex-GIRLFRIEND showed up and he had to talk with her)........ I broke up with him........... THEN a few days later I met someone for dinner. I have never heard the end to this........... EVEN thought, he was the one who stood me up, ( he didn't call and say he would be late) which caused the breakup....... not to mention we could date others at that time anyways. When ever he gets into one of his "moods" after fighting about the silliest thing, he then says... "all this triggers how easily you can replace me, that is what I am really upset about". So all this time we are fighting over this trivial thing, and now that you see how stupid the subject is, you NOW say it is this other issue?. I have repeatedly tried to tell him that 1. he stood me up... cause and effect thing 2. EVEN IF we hadn't broken up, I was still able to date others 3. That IF I could have replaced him so easily, I wouldn't have gotten back together with him. Little did I know, that whole scene was only the tip of the iceberg.... Yep, I stuck around for more twisted, warped fights.

Now it has become clear to me........... he loves to fight, it is all part of the "cycle". I used to say to him.... it is so weird when you create a fight (and I would fall for it... get sucked in) you get so energized... you'll clean out your garage etc.. while I take to bed for the day. I never knew anyone who got energized by a fight. Now I see that this was a "high" to him...... because it was a distraction, a diversion from his real feelings. Here's my question... Do abusers ever feel remorse? NOT THAT I LEFT AS A PLOY FOR HIM TO GROW... I certainly did not. My leaving was purely for my own emotional safety. I finally "woke up"..... and saw the dance for what it was! (my part as well) I am just wanting some validation that in fact, he has/had some kind of human-ness going on inside of him. Looking back, he was NOT compassionate about what I felt...... (If he was he would have never done the hurtful things to me, compassion prevents us from doing mean things to another.. or is it integrity?) In the last month, he has tried to "bait" me to fight with him in emails. I have done pretty good at containing myself...;) I do know he is lashing out, so that he can start a fight, because in keeping with his M.O. if there was a fight, then it would explain his foul mood. (as coming from the outside of him, instead of the inside of him)... nice gig, if the other is willing to be the scapegoat. And of course, to make things more confusing........ I do miss him (the good parts)....... BUT, when I am feeling too blinded by the good points, I just go a reread my journals............ where it was one fight after another for NO reason. Tell me this is all a normal part of recovery? You're doing the right thing, reading your journals. Forgive, but never, ever forget... Take care

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Monday, July 02, 2001

To the new person posting; You are exactly right, I think, when you say that you were part of the dance. Now that you are no longer responding the old way to your ex-boyfriend's game, he probably is very angry. You were like a puzzle piece that he knew exactly how to fit into his life. Now that you are changing the way you respond to his treatment of you, it may be forcing him to deal with other things that he doesn't want to look at. Of course you didn't break up to make him change. I didn't throw my boyfriend out to force a change either. But that doesn't mean that you won't miss the good things, or even the company or your old routine. I miss the SOBER M. terribly. But I was seeing him left often anyway and reached the point where the bad was outweighing the good. I am also hoping that his failure to seek help or his blame-game tactics don't mean that he never really loved our son & I. I think that he did in as much as an alcoholic was able to love other people. It sounds like your ex. may be pretty emotionally ill. He probably loves you as much as he is capable of loving another person. But alcoholics (addicts, verbal abusers,whatever) don't even love themselves. And I keep reminding myself that before M. can be capable of fully loving or caring for our son & I, he has to be able to love & care for himself. And right now, he doesn't seem to be doing a great job of that. Re reading your journals is probably helpful. I keep reviewing in my mind what the last 5 months here have been like, off & on. I keep reading al-anon lit. to reaffirm that his failure is exactly that, HIS. This site has been very good for me. Hope it helps you too. Karin

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Everyone

Posted On Saturday, Trubble must be eating posts again - gone into cyberspace somewhere. (Giggle)

Ran a test seemed to come out OK so here goes.

I attended a Group session last week and was confused by something that was said. The counselor said I know instinctively what I need to do to keep me safe and that's why all these years there has only been mostly verbal stuff and a few pushes. When I was talking about an incident that happened last week. I said that I had been thinking over what had happened and when my partner started yelling and name calling I would have been better to say something like "That's your opinion" or "I don't like the way your talking to me" and then detached, left the room. I engaged/explained so it escalated into a huge argument. The counselor kept saying that I did what I did because that's what keeps me safe???? That doesn't make sense to me because if I would have said simply "That's your opinion" and then detached I don't think it would have escalated the way it did. Am I missing something here???  Your partner wants you to explain and pay attention to him. Detaching could risk violence.

Kala

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Everyone,

I just spent my first weekend away from my kids. My husband came Saturday afternoon. The kids and I had to wait until Noon for him to show up. He is still "controlling" my time. I wanted to make the transition go smooth so I held back any comments that he was late and next time could he because I sensed this was done on purpose to provoke me. So, I saved it for later. I will just note next time to ask him to tell me when. When it is court ordered he will be required to give me exact times to pick up and drop off.

It was extremely difficult for me to stay away. My mother was a life saver. She actually set limits on me. Every time I came up with an excuse to go back for something she said, "No, do not go back and set a precedent that you each stay completely away". It was difficult for me to stop my own compulsion. I told her it felt like I was 5 years old and she was setting the limits. She even said, "I am going to stop you from doing this until you can stop yourself." 

I did leave a letter on the table explaining that I realize now it's not my responsibility to make him happy. I told him that I can not change him that he has to want to change himself. I told him I will not allow him to blame me for his misbehavior. I told him I am accepting responsibility for my behavior and doing what it takes to change myself. I added that I feel like he has one foot out the door for the duration of our marriage and that we never had a mutual respect relationship or any real commitment. I feel as though he never intended on "working things out" given his recent behavior. (making a "friend" and blaming me for his behavior) I told him I am accepting that this is who he is and has chosen to behave. I am hurt and in pain. I realize now that it was not my fault he chose to behave this way. He kept telling me "If you would just (fill in blank) then I would....(be happy, not cheat, drink, etc) I asked him to think about all the things he has said to me or about me and realize this is a reflection of who he is. I said, "What I realize now is my reflection was of hurt and pain." I told him that I looked in the mirror and saw a person who deserves to be loved, treated with respect, and dignity now.

Well, I gave him a lot to chew on while I was gone. I guess perhaps I should have just let him figure this all out on his own. I stated my opinion. Now it's up to him to do with what he wants with that bit of information.

Meanwhile, I was extremely depressed this weekend. I asked my doctor to switch me from Paxil to Zoloft. I was on 20 ml of Paxil. I started at 50ml of Zoloft. There was no withdrawal symptoms. I was just so melancholy and crying very easily. I am just not so sure the Zoloft is working as well. I have spent so much time crying and grieving. I don't know if either one would be effective. I feel better today. It's OK to feel pain. Please don't try to blot pain out...

I am making a list of my "stuff" to work on. I can see I have a definite problem with feeling lonely and abandoned. His rejection just about sends me into a state of panic. I get upset and start doubting myself, and going back over what went wrong. I read my books for validation. My mom validates my experience. She blames him (exclusively) when I do realize it took two to tango. I obsess about How could have I changed the outcome. Well, I can't. I can only move on from here. I can see that now but boy, on Thursday. I was just devastated when he told me..."I am done with YOU"...and "If you would just have gone to therapy with me then we could have worked this out but your were too scared." (I guess now I will pay for it) I just hit my hand on my cough (frustration) and said, "That's because there is always another If I would just! Good observation! I will not allow you to Blame me for your behavior. I was only willing to accept responsibility for my behavior! You want me to take on your responsibility too." He started in again about how things could have been different if I would have done what he said....I just covered my ears and walked out. I could not listen to it be forced down me how "If I would have..." I just told him "YOU were done with me before you even started. I could never make you happy no matter what I did. There was never a WE. It was all about YOU, YOU, YOU!" All I ever asked for was "time and space to think". I told him I could not take it any longer. I left to cool off. He wants to tell me how to think, feel, and what happened.

See this is where I am really confused. My therapist realizes I am codependent. So she recommended that I do not go in and try to "fix" him. She says to work on myself. Let him worry about his therapy. He is blaming my therapist now for me choosing to "stay away" for he meantime to push him back on himself. He now blames me because I would not go and hear him out because I could see from his recent behavior he was still blaming me and not changing his behaviors. He continued to lie, manipulate, and drink.....He says that he has gotten over being angry and sees that "WE" had a problem. Now, I don't know if I missed something. Could I have been so afraid to be blamed and not hear that he has realized we each have contributed to the problem? I'm sure you have your part. But, don't even bother looking for it until he takes responsibility for himself and stops blaming the world. He does mention lately that he realizes now that he treated me poorly and he was sorry. He does not feel though he was abusive like I say and controlling me that this was my way of blaming him and not seeing his side? I keep wondering if I should not have gone just to hear him out. My therapist says this will just divert the attention away from what he should be doing which is working on himself. See what is making this difficult is that he is trying so hard to re-write history because he is afraid of admitting he was abusive because this will effect his child visitation in the divorce. He wants to convince the therapist that I was wrong. Ugh. I thought if I backed off he would figure it out on his own. I believe under there somewhere he knows but is afraid to admit it because of the divorce proceeding. He keeps saying "Now we will never know because you were too scared to go." I kept thinking I was protecting myself from being verbally attacked and berated in the therapy session. Now, I should be back working on myself. He is still bullying me and intimidating me by threatening to leave the marriage. I did not want him to do this. I am devastated. Ugh......Then there is part of me that thinks go and do the best you can to not accept his blaming. Stick to the issues of responsibility and trust. It won't work huh? His goal is to "win" not understand. Shoot, I know this!?  Face reality.

My problem has been I have "acted out" and he has passively aggressively pushed me up against a wall (not physically but mentally). I am afraid that he will just use it to gain power over me. I did not do anything "illegal". I just spit and yelled at him to get out of my face. My kids have seen this behavior. He immediately said, "Look how you are behaving in front of the kids! My therapist told me you want to be angry and the "victim"!" (Should he hold up a mirror?) I said, "No I want you to get out of my face!" I reported it to my therapist and their therapist. I immediately felt remorse and told them I would develop my impulse control skill, and redirect the anger. I apologized to my kids. I felt cornered at the time, and repulsed by him. I also found out he was dating another girl while saying he was working things out (translation: twisting it around to appear to be my fault). So he is hanging onto this one incident bringing it up over and over to "win" his point. I definitely learned that no matter what he does to provoke me I am responsible for how I reacted. I just can't take it back now. Now, I feel like he "won" but really if he chooses to use this as his reason to leave the marriage. I can't change that. I figured he wanted to leave anyway he would find excuse eventually. He just forces my hand. I just have not developed the necessary skills to protect my boundaries and feel frustrated. He is using this to his advantage. I just want it all to "stop". He pushes, and pushes me.

See I see his behaviors as "acting out" from his "stuff" inside. I am really trying to separate the behavior from the person. I know I do some pretty self-destructive things to myself. I am trying to change. He is drinking which everyone is saying around the kids with his unresolved anger is dangerous. He says he is learning moderation and self-control. He wants to keep the beer and just drink less. I had no comment. He says he is making peace with his past but I feel he put a band-aid on it and now thinks he is healed. He is still attending therapy. Both therapist are trying to get us both to think it's over just move on to keep us focused on each of own "stuff". I have this romantic notion that we can do this together if we stay focused on our own "stuff" and stop blaming each other. Am I correct? Just worry about fixing you right now.

So, I have learned from that incident what not to do. I really lost it at the time. I felt so pushed and now he has gotten what he wanted.....or has he?

What do you guys think? Should I go and just see what he says. Test my own strength. I can of coarse give it more time. We still have 2 months. I can simply tell him "Okay, the marriage was over anyway. I will just continue to work on me. I only can ask that you work on you. Then when the date comes to sign the paperwork. If you don't want to stay and work it out then just sign the paper." So, I can let go and see what happens. I just have to turn my head so that it does not hurt when I hear he is dating, etc. Why that hurts so much is beyond me, I wanted this pain to stop too.

He drew me this picture of a broken heart....BTW he lays on the guilt thick. I can feel he is still manipulating me. This covert stuff is absolutely nerve wracking.

I can just keep working at this disengaging and not allowing him to provoke me and see what happens. If he can't wait for me to pull myself together. Then it just was not meant to be.

Okay, I am done venting.....It's so hard sometimes to stay focused on what I can change. I get so caught up in all the games and manipulation.....That's my problem. I am easily side tracked.

Thanks for listening guys!

LisaMM

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Well, real no news on the Dr. Psycho home front. I am doing better as the weeks go on. I've been staying very busy with friends and family. I've met some new men friends on the personal ads. No real weirdoes lately - some pretty decent people - so I'm enjoying cultivating some new friendships there, and getting in touch with old friends as well.

I'm still walking - and down 6 lbs. - and am feeling great. Its been warm here so I go out before it gets hot. I walk 1 hour a day.

So, nothing real new. No 'sightings' - no anything. Its been nice!

Love, Sharon

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi Again,

I wanted to add something. When I returned on Sunday. I was good in waiting for them to call me to let me know it was okay to come home. I went home and pictured duct tape on my mouth. I dolled myself up (hee,hee...see what your missing. Nah, I had been out shopping with my mom. But, hey, I looked pretty darn good :) Anyway, a neighbor was in the garage. He left me a letter basically saying "Could it possibly be I need to hold up a mirror" and again pointing his finger at me. I thought, "Yep, could be." I just laid it down. Stayed calm. Hugged my kids, and felt absolutely at peace with me. I knew I was not a bad person, just hurt, and in pain. That's okay.

The house was spotless. He spent the whole weekend fixing the yard, cleaning the house, buying groceries, and taking the kids to the water park, to visit friends, and he was exhausted. I bet it took a lot of energy to avoid "feeling". He was in the garage gulping his last beer. I felt like I was watching him for the first time from the outside. I did not feel like he was "doing" anything to ME. He baited a couple of times and I refused to bite. He got in his truck and said, "Lisa, come here. You look beautiful." I said, "I know. I have always been beautiful, Greg. I just couldn't see it sometimes." He drove away. I held myself together for my kids. I truly missed him but I knew I was going to be okay.

What a little time and space did for me this weekend. I guess it won't be so bad after all if he does decide to divorce me and remain the same. I realize it's not my fault. I did the best I could. I am doing what I can humanly possible to change myself and protect myself. If he can't wait for me or accept me then I guess like he says "We will never know what could have been." 

Thanks again.

LisaMM

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Monday, July 02, 2001

LisaMM....

Just read your two posts - you sound much better in the 2nd one.

It seems to me that he's just trying to get you back into your old behavior patterns of trying to fix everything for him and being the doormat that he once had.

Don't fall for it!

You've come a long way in realizing that YOU are important and deserving of respect and love.

It seems to me he's just trying to manipulate you - testing you to see what riles you and how he can get you to react to him. Don't give him the satisfaction. Detach...be cool to him....pretend not to hear his yukky comments.

Hang in there....

Kathy

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Kala,

What you might be missing is that your subconscious may know that if you set a boundary and detach that that behavior may be the thing that escalates it over the top (either through subtle signals from him or because of a past experience of yours). Have you read The Gift of Fear? Lots of good info about what your fear is telling you and how those gut feelings are based on logic--even though you aren't aware of it.

Friday

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Monday, July 02, 2001
 

Hi,

I'm new to the board, but not to verbal abuse. I read a book on it that changed my life. In more ways than one. Once I realized I was being abused and it wasn't all my fault, I went to a counselor. He has helped me so much. But now my husband has left me. He said every since I went to the counselor, it has made our marriage worse. Of course it has, because now I stand up to him. The reason he said he is leaving is because of my mouth. I know I'm doing the right thing. Only I have 5 kids. I just started Real Estate, and I have a feeling before it is all said and done he will use the money as a control over me. I'm just writing because I'm going to need some support. I know in my heart that I can t go back to being married like that. He has asked me the name of my counselor so he can make an appt. We'll see. This site saved my life... Thank you

Heidi

 

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Monday, July 02, 2001

hi, I just don't know where to begin. I am in a relationship with a man that has to control everything I do, he has even told me I love my children to much and him not enough. he makes me believe I have said things that I have not and I get punished for it, and he keeps telling me I deserve it, there are no ties between us but I just cant seem to let him go. my family fears for my safety yet I still insist on staying with him. I am 31 and he is 38. I need help but don't know where to look please help.

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Monday, July 02, 2001

I've been very busy lately and have been trying to catch up on some reading of the Catbox messages. I seen some things that were going on in my relationship in here still. I got a lot of information from one post about not provoking or was it not confronting the abuser. I totally understand where that person was coming from. My husband will follow me and corner me in the kitchen or wherever I go in the apartment. I tried what it says to do in the book "The Abusive Relationship". The last time I put my hands up and face them towards him and said stop I wound up in the shower, fully clothed. What or how do you react to that. What I do is go totally blank and let him do whatever at that point. I know there is no way of getting around him. He hasn't put me in the shower for a good long time ever since I told him that I didn't think it as being funny and it was totally unacceptable. Now he just picks me up and drags me around. The last time he did the was about two weeks ago and I just screamed in his ear. He let me down and them yelled names at me. I did something after that but an not sure of how I want or should deal with that. I wrote to his parent's and told them what he does and that he won't let me touch him in the morning and how he controls me and about his anger and rages when I ask him why repeatedly to get a simple answer. At first they were shocked, then I explained myself to his mother over the phone as to what he does and about reading that book and all the counseling I went to. Now they want to know how they can help and if they should show him the letters that I wrote to them and they wrote back to me. He is going to visit them at the end of July, but I won't be going because I have other matters to attend to. They want to know if they should say anything to him then. I really don't know, because he just turns my words around (and I explained that to them). I am afraid of his anger and they now know that. I am afraid of what he will do when he does get back home if they do tell him, but at the same time I want them to talk to their son to see how he really gets. I know they understand and I know that they want his side of the story, but they now want to know how to help. What should I tell them? I wrote him a note the other day and I told him how I felt and that he was being really sweet to me, but at the same time being distant. I pointed out that he goes to bed much later that I do and gets out of bed now earlier than I do and he wears his day clothes to bed. I already told him that I have adjusted myself so as not to put my arm around him in the morning when waking up. He said that he wanted to talk about my note. He asked if I had a problem. I said no, I didn't. I asked him to repeat what I stated in the note. He told me that I said that I didn't like the way he showed his affection to me. I said that is not what I said in the note. He tried to provoke a fight or argument by saying that I got upset because he wore his shorts to bed. I just let the conversation drop. I forgot to say "So you say" as it says to say in the book. When I didn't say anything, I get the feeling that he thinks that he won. Is that what it was about?

Debbie

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Thanks Kathy,

I do feel like he is manipulating me. I am just one of those people that pull over to save kittens from the side of the road. I need to keep in mind that I could get hit by a truck if I am not careful.

I just know how the game goes. He misbehaves and blames me. I set limits. He gets mad and pushes me away. I feel bad because he suffers. I can't handle watching him suffer. I take him back. He is good for a little while. Then when I am vulnerable he pulls the rug out from underneath me. I suffer for his actions.

Thank you so much for reminding me! It's manipulation. Again, I will just keep my distance and see what he chooses to do. Meanwhile, I am thinking "Wake Up! Wake Up! Wake Up!" It's all right in front of him and he can't see it.

:) LisaMM

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Hi all-

Today my STBX left me one nasty voicemail at work, and then one at home apologizing that "I should ignore the voicemail at work". He confirmed his nose is broken from baseball last night. Amazing, the man couldn't pick up a baseball with his son who played AAU baseball, but he can play it with his drinking buddies (I didn't say this to him. .just venting--sorry!). Then he tells me they need to re-break it and set it, but he isn't going to let them do that. Um...okay, your choice I tell him.

I did call him back. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I wanted to see how his nose was doing, and I just can't be that uncaring. He again apologized about the voicemail, that he's in pain and hurting, and that's why he was upset, and I just said okay, well I have to go now.

Then he proceeds to call me a liar (again, his version of all of his episodes are different than those who witnessed it), that he wants the divorce because he can't live with a liar, that I've changed, then he asks me if I can help him with his business books?! I nicely told him, sorry, but I can't help you out with that. Then he gets mad he's going to have to get a bookkeeper, that I was never there for him, yada yada yada.

I finally had the nerve to say, "yes, I was there for you. I took care of both the kids, worked full-time, took care of the house inside and out, groceries, dishes, personal finances, PTA, and your business books. How can you say I did nothing? I asked for one thing I really wanted to do (go back to college 2 nights for 1 1/2 hours--after he closed his 1st business), and you paged me out of class and screamed at me about picking our daughter up from basketball. That was 2 years ago, and I never went back. Who are you talking about? Me or you?" Then he tells me all I do is listen to my counselors and they destroyed our marriage. I said, no, you kept telling me I was the problem. I wanted our marriage to work, so I was willing to listen to what I had to hear. What I heard was I was not all of the problem. I was taking on more than a household of 2 adults should, that I was codependent, and needed to stop giving my life energy away to everyone else. Then I could have more energy, be less frustrated, because I would be taking better care of myself. Then he says, "well, I liked you the way you were, not now. You won't go out and drink with me, and I told you 22 years ago, no woman is ever going to tell me what to do (don't remember that one, but okay...)". So I just say, "You're right. I'm not going to tell you what to do. It is your life, and you have the right to live it the way you want. But this is also my life, and I and the kids don't need to live in fear of what you are going to be like when you come through the door. This is my choice". Amazingly, the conversation ended quite calmly after I said this. I told him to take care and said goodbye.

Many of these other posts have the same basic things mentioned in this conversation. The blame they put on us and our therapists/counselors. Our "recovery" is clearly a threatening thing to them as they resist doing their own work, and still want to be taken care of.

I don't hate him, and know that he loved us the best way he could. Everyone says I should be angry, but I can honestly say I have more pity for him at this point. He just doesn't want to look in the mirror, because if he did, he would hate what he sees, and maybe he just can't deal with that. That's sad. I think the reality of "what is" is getting clearer to me everyday. While it's unpleasant, I think denial is a worse place to be.

They tell us to change, then when we do, it's "change back!". I think I read this in "The Dance of Anger" about 5 years ago. When we stop doing the dance, it screws up their whole world.

L

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Monday, July 02, 2001

Dr. Irene (and group)

Thank you for your last response. It made a lot of sense to me.

I think you are right that all along I was hoping for things to change, although I have detached a lot. I also react when a ‘situation’ happens in front of the kids. This is also emotional for me, because they are innocent in this and I do believe it impacts them negatively. But I have no control over it, so I need to let it go.

I realize I have still been emotionally dependent on him. As someone pointed out to me once, not having a physical relationship doesn’t mean you aren’t in a relationship.

I meditated on the purpose of this ‘lesson’ for me and the word that came to mind was ‘strength’.

Much of our relationship has been work, and I love my work with Steve. It’s harder to withdraw when you see someone so often.

Today I made a decision. Steve needed to drop by and get some things (they are going camping), and I really didn’t feel strong enough to face another ‘episode’, especially in front of the kids.

I told him to call when they came by so I could go somewhere else. I did have a feeling that he may think I was doing this as punishment, but I decided that regardless of what he thought, I really couldn’t handle being there today.

He was respectful about it and called. He also told me how long he expected to be there. I left when they were on their way and went for a walk out to a pond.

I felt such a sense of peace – it was like my little vulnerable self was saying “thank you”. Because of my concern for others, I don’t always protect myself. I am learning though... slowly.

Theressa

Your post about ‘acceptance’ was very on target. I think I have to face that it’s time for Steve and I to let each other go peacefully on the personal level, rather than handing each other crumbs because our emotional resources have been used up. I guess neither of us are capable of offering the “whole cake” any more.

I do think Steve is enormously talented, likeable and we have many common interests – this is what gets in the way of me seeing ‘what is’. When things are ‘even-keeled’ I think I tend to forget the bad stuff and expect it not to resurface. This is irrational thinking on my part.

I think sometimes there is a point when you have tried and tried to rebuild and your faith in the ability to accomplish the rebuilding just simply dies.

My acceptance needs to transcend Steve and also include my own limitations. I have to face the fact that I have nothing left to give Steve emotionally any more.

Though it seems sad to me when 2 people love each other but can’t make it work, I don’t believe in accidents. I think it is far healthier to see these encounters as aids to our growth, if we are indeed willing to grow.

thanks both of you.

L

I just read your post and I think it’s really cool that you are not angry with him. Really, what’s the point? It would hurt *you* the most in the end.

We all go through our phases, but the sooner we get into acceptance, the better off we all are, I think.

take care

Asha

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi.

I must admit that I am extremely nervous about posting to this board - mostly because I am just beginning to realize that I am (and have been for about 8 years) in a verbally/emotionally abusive relationship and by posting to this board I am finally admitting this to myself.  Good for you for posting then!

Everything became so clear this past weekend when my husband broke down a door (he did so much damage that the door and frame all have to be replaced) and kicked several holes in a wall. My precious 3 year old little girl witnessed it all and two days later is still traumatized.

He subsequently left and finally called today to tell me that he is out of town and visiting with his "buddies". He is not remorseful -if anything he is determined to blame the entire argument on me.

I am having a hard time believing that I am in this mess - I honestly thought I was smarter and more aware than that! Now of course I am trying to figure out how to get out. I have little money; I am miles away from family; I don't have a strong network of friends here yet as we just recently moved; and I have two young children to look after. My sister says that I need to take things one at a time and not to look at the whole picture because every time I do that I scare myself silly. I know that I can't keep sticking my head in the sand (for my sake and that of my children) but I am not feeling too secure right now.

I don't know what I am looking for from these boards, but I do know it is kind of reassuring to know that there are people there that understand exactly what I am going thru.

Thank you. Cindy

PS - The material on this site really has helped to clarify things in such a way that I can't really deny the abuse anymore.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Kathy, Theressa here,

YOUR co-dependent buttons are showing. So you interpret seeing your brothers as a message that you need to TAKE MORE CARE OF YOUR MOM and brothers.

I think it means something more healthier than this, I think it is a message that Kathy really can't take on the burden of their lives anymore, her own is too important. What do you think, Kathy?

If you started fixing them, paying them more attention, would you feel used?

IT isn't them who need more attention honey, it is you. THIS IS THE MESSAGE LOUD AND CLEAR, YOU NEED TO MAKE YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILDREN THE PRIORITY IN YOUR LIFE.

Your mom expected way too much from a little girl. She reversed the roles of parent-child to YOU being the parent and her the child. She did this when she bothered you with adult problems, and most of all when she used you as a sounding board to put your father down.

No little girl should have to put up with this, You should have been allowed to LOVE your daddy without knowing of your mothers problems, they were her issues to sort out not yours.

IT IS time for Kathy to start looking after her own family. Hence the message you were suppose to get when you saw your own family.

Hope this helps Take care Theressa

Hi Theressa....Kathy here.

I'm thinking about your post for sure now, since it is in the catbox several times!!! Maybe I needed to see it that many times in order to get me to think it over and respond to it! So there was a reason for the multiple posts! Glad you saw them before I cleaned it up.

In my family, I am the oldest. And after the deaths of my two sisters, I am the only girl. I have 4 brothers. Yes, I was the "self-proclaimed" fixer in the family. Always trying to make things right for everyone. And of course, failing miserably.

I was my mother's confidant - she always complained to me about my father (who like most daughters, I adored). So I listened to her endless complaints about him just because I was the "dutiful" daughter.

Two of my brothers are mentally ill or something. They were diagnosed as ADD or ADHD but I really believe they are bipolar. All I remember is that they were just wacky and out of control while I was growing up.

As you can picture, my family was very dysfunctional. We went to counseling for a while but it never worked. Nothing ever changed.

I joined the US Army when I was 17 and left. It was the best thing I could've done for myself. I was gone 9 years before I moved back (6 in the Army, 3 living in another state).

I saw my brothers more when I was living away than I do now that I live in the area. That's why I thought it strange last week that I would have contact with 3 out of the 4. I think its some sort of message from God that I should be paying more attention to my mom and brothers.

I'm doing better this week. My daughter is back at her friends' and my van is running so things are quiet at home and I feel independent and able to get around again. I think last week was an exam and I didn't really want to be tested so went into it with a bad attitude. I am OK though - made it through. Hopefully this will be a quiet and uneventful week.

Kathy

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dearest Asha and Steve,

I personally think you both need to work on your own stuff and heal it first.

Then in the future maybe you can make it more if you want to.

I am not the best to counsel anyone on separation and letting go. I am still in turmoil myself over this. I do know that just before my partner sent me a letter at Christmas I was moving on. Even when I received his letter I was made up to move on. Then in the letter was a sentence that dragged me back "You never know" Meaning it could work.

Well me being me, I was too curious to move on.

BUT I do know you have to do what FEELS right for you, remember there are no mistakes. They are all just lessons. Everything unfolds as it should do. Have faith in GOD.

Take care Theressa Theressa, how are you doing without Ron? Where did he go? Do you have a new therapist?

 

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi to all; Lisa: You sound so much better in the 2nd post. It was a relief to read your 2nd one. There is a satisfaction to knowing that you look well, isn't there. I have always heard the saying that living well is the best revenge. I am seeing the full truth to that saying. M. came over yesterday. He called as I was cleaning up the dining room. M. asked to come over but he said he would be awhile as he had to make his dinner. (Translation; If I ate at your house, I would be there sooner) I told him that would be fine. He asked what we had for dinner. (We really had salads & baked fish, because that's our favorite, but I lied and said we had pork chops & scalloped potatoes, because that's his favorite.) When he got here the house was clean, I looked wonderful, the fridge is stocked, little M. looked (as always) like a doll, the yard looked tended, the patio (a lovely little space of mine that M. always had cluttered with junk) had been cleaned & looked inviting. (It's amazing how busy I can stay. I have even sanded & painted my white iron patio furniture in the last week.) What really got to M. was that I had (OH HORRORS!) cleaned "his" garage! The garage, which is attached to the house, has been so dirty for the last year that I couldn't even put a vehicle in it. I often had to walk out the front and around the house w/ little M. because I was afraid that he would get hurt or step on something. Sunday (the day M. never showed because he never found his car keys) I used my hurt and anger to clean that space. I threw away wrappers & plastic bags, old wood that M. had been saving for "a big project", put every tool I found in the giant (formerly empty) tool box, swept up nails & screws, threw away old coffee cans (that M. was saving to "get organised with). You get the idea. I cleaned until I could run the outdoor vac on the floor. I even washed all the garage windows. M. was most vexed. ("You got rid of my STUFF! You shouldn't touch my garage!" I felt like Scarlet O'Hara, making a dress out of the draperies; "Fiddle Dee Dee, they are my poiteres now!") I just shrugged and told him that he knew it had been a sore point for a long time w/ me. M. would start a project, never finish it, leave the pieces everywhere, and start a new one. Let's see, we had the beefed up riding mower phase, the model rocket phase, the hovercraft phase, the building bird houses for fun-and-profit phase, and so on. I have since learned that alcoholics tend to do that. Projects are much like relationships to M. ,they seem like a good idea at the beginning, he quits in the middle when it gets tough, and he leaves the aftermath for others to clean up & deal with. Anyway, it was a nice visit, but I know that M. would have felt better if I had been softly sobbing into a grungy dish towel in the middle of a messy house when he had arrived. He wanted to know how I found all the time & energy to do everything. I told him that once I sobered up, quit drinking and stayed out of bars, I could do anything. He just looked dumb. (I don't drink, & I never liked bars.) Anyway, M. has decided that e is an alcoholic (Nooooo!) Remember last Thursday, he was sure he wasn't & the only problem he had was I was paranoid. Amazing that a blackout weekend has put a little scare into him. Really amazing is how much clearer things are when he is gone & I can put his behavior into perspective with healthy people & sane conversation. Karin

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Cindy,

Welcome! I think it's good you're here, because you are realizing that while it's normal for people to disagree, someone kicking down a door is not the "norm". Of course your daughter is upset, cause witnessing something like that is scary to an adult, never mind a child! The lack of remorse by your husband is a big wake up call. That's what blew me away after my STBX's first incident. He would not admit his actions or trauma he caused to his family. Still won't. Fine for him to blame the argument on you. But to not take the responsibility for his actions, then ignore the impact on the children...I believe that's denial.

I felt the same way. I thought I was smarter and should have known better too. Matter of fact, it seems like there are a lot of smart people on this site, smart people who try to rationalize and explain their partner's behavior. We seem to follow our hearts before our heads. Believe me, I still struggle with this one. What I finally realized is I had to work on me and figure out why I was putting up with it, and why was I so damned determined to think I could fix it!

You are right that you can't keep "sticking your head in the sand". Boy...I heard this one from some good friends, would pull my head out, and stick it back down after more promises of change followed by temporary bliss. It's hard to keep your head out when you have a caring heart, but you are right when you say you need to for your sake, and the sake of your children.

You sister is giving you excellent advice. One day at a time, and don't look at the big picture, because it can be extremely overwhelming. Baby steps...the craziness can change how you feel one day, or even one hour to the next, as the situation is so close, and we can be easily convinced by "irrational guilt" that it's our fault completely.

Take first things first. If you are new to your area, try to see if your local police department can recommend a domestic violence center, or if alcohol is involved, try Alanon, counseling, or keep surfing this site. The first thing you need to do is take care of you and your children, and the more you learn to distance yourself from the situation, the clearer the picture becomes.

Don't worry about feeling insecure right now. Your world has been turned upside-down. These boards are a great way to purge those feelings, and know you are not alone (unfortunately).

Good luck Cindy and hang in there.

L

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Cats;

I noticed how lots of people write in stating that setting limits certainly produces results with an abuser. I think it's true for the most part, but in my past experience, I noticed that setting limits with the abuser most of the time gives them fuel to try something else, or something worse. If you ask them to stop calling you a so-and-so, they may stop calling you *that particular thing*, but they'll find another name to call you instead. Right. Even worse, they may refuse to respect the boundary you have set, as if they are saying "No, I can do whatever I want. I am in control here. Your opinion does not matter." Yes. But, you have to start somewhere... In my past, for example, after my "partner" would call me some incredibly insulting name, I'd tell her to please stop. Her response was to tell me I was too sensitive, couldn't take a joke, and then tried to make me responsible by telling me "I can't say anything to you without you being hurt by it. That just proves that you're not my type!!!" The one that got me the most was "Every time you say I've hurt you, you're only hurting yourself." Pure blame-shifting. Another time, I asked her to please stop calling me names. She responded by saying I was trying to "manipulate" her. Crazy-making!!!! She never bothered to notice that I never called her names, other than terms of endearment, under any circumstances. When I finally told her this, her response was total silence. It's as if setting limits is seen by the abuser as a challenge. You set a boundary, they find another one to try and tear down. Beware, you'll never win. I still think the only solution for the victim is to kick the abuser out of their life, as incredibly hard as that is. Often, that is exactly what has to happen... They only change when they're ready to take responsibility for their actions, which may or may not ever happen... XX.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi Cats,

A theme that has been striking me in the Box lately, maybe because it's happening to me too, is the Ex's being the ones who now say they want divorces or that there's no hope, etc etc, when we decide that we will stand up for ourselves, not permit abuse, distance ourselves emotionally, and so forth. It's the sheer irony of it.

Yes, I understand it intellectually - we are no longer available to be dumping grounds or tension release targets and so the primary function of the relationship is no longer there for the abuser, making the relationship (on its way to health) no longer fulfilling for the abuser while at the same time it's the only chance for US to want to stay.

I guess I am musing on the mechanics of the thing. It really is a different reality. But so many of us are saying our abusers want the divorce, just as the guy I didn't even think I had feelings for informed me there was no chance of us getting back together (HUH?!), even Jake says this even while he won't let Jay go!  It really doesn't lend itself to be understood. It defies all logic. Yes, and no. It's often a defensive posture. I'll get rid of you before you can get rid of me.

L's post of yesterday kind of says it all. I think I will go get The Dance of Anger!

Asha, I had a similar feeling about my ex, that I enjoyed talking to him and doing friend things that didn't get into the relationship madness - and I don't understand that either, but there it is. I can tell Steve is a great guy as you say, and I can see that you like working with him. Can you partition off your mind so that you get to enjoy that part while leaving the crazy stuff in some other cobwebby attic of your brain where you don't have to look at it anymore? Does that sound weird? It just seems that you have this friend whom you really do like in many contexts, and it seems too bad to lose that part. Maybe I am suggesting something superhuman. I had five months of total space from my ex before I was able to even think about the friendly part, and I am still not sure about friendship - it's new territory for me.

Happy Tuesday, Cats!

Love, Perdida

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi again Cats,

I don't understand the lack of remorse that L and Cindy referred to - that was my Ex's MO too. I've read that physical abusers get real remorseful and bring flowers and beg to be forgiven. Why would someone who puts on a display of rage, like Cindy described and that I saw enough of myself, then never EVER apologize or acknowledge, even blaming the target (us)?

I pointed out to my ex that he had NEVER apologized, not even the one time he acknowledged he had been wrong, and he said he apologized over and over again to his recollection. That was insane. Does that mean he is dangerous, psychotic, whatever? In psychiatric diagnostic manuals (i.e. DSM-IV), lack of remorse indicates sociopath! Not enough data to diagnose or predict dangerousness. But, he does have problems!

Love,

Why-am-i-still-thinking-about-this-because-i-must-need-to Perdida

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Debbie here. I wanted to ad some things to my post of yesterday. I am sorry that all the spelling is messed up. I was trying to get it all down, but didn't accomplish that. Anyway...... Since reading the book "The Verbally Abusive Relationship ", by Patricia Evans I have noticed allot of things about my relationship and how to overcome them. Is it natural to sit and look at your partner after reading that book, to keep asking or searching for an answer as to who he really is and why he really wanted to marry you? I am also getting kind of angry, with him and with myself. I am angry because he is doing this to me and I am angry because I have let him do this to me. Is that normal? Yes. I am trying to control that anger in me because I don't want the anger to control me. Does that make sense? Yes. Now when he tells me to get dressed for bed and asks me all sorts of questions concerning that, i.e. are you going out?, are you expecting anyone? etc.. I just tell him No, that I don't want to get in my "sleepy clothes" right now. I also comment to him that I don't like being treated like a child. On Sunday I had to make an emergency phone call (I am now the wife of the Grand Knight for our Knight's of Columbus Council and in being that I have responsibilities and was setting up a dinner for the reception of the new Officers. To me that is a reflection on me as to well I can put it all together. I don't know how much food will feed how many people of a large group yet.) to get more food. On the conversation I told the person on the other end that "I was having a cow." It's just a phrase and the other person was laughing with me, but we got it together. After the phone call my husband asked me if they were laughing "AT" me. That really upset me and I retorted that no they weren't laughing at me they were laughing "with" me. He said "whatever". That just riles me. I think that he is realizing that I am noticing what he is doing to me and he can't push any buttons anymore. Am I on the right track?

Clarification as to why I wrote to his parent's. He had a bad car accident some 16 or so years ago and as of that accident he had a closed head injury and reading on that subject (extensively!) it is a normal part of the person afterwards to have some level of anger. Well I just wanted to know if they had noticed that level of anger and rage from him. His mother at first said no that she has never noticed him as being angry or upset about anything. She kept telling me that they are a very loving family. I know that, this is one of the things that I looked for in seeing if my husband and I were compatible before we got married. I reassured her that is why I married her son. After that is when she knew that I was not making this up and that is when they wanted to help me.

Sincerely, Debbie

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

What are your control dramas (ways you attract attention), where did they begin in childhood? How do they help you get attention?

For instance when you fix things you get attention from your abuser he or she things you've come around to their way of thinking.

ARE YOU ALWAYS OPEN TO ALL others have to say? Or are you defensive?

PLEASE remember no one passes through your life by accident what message do they have about YOU? Maybe it is a message that you need to work on an issue deep inside you.

E.g. For me I need to fix my defensiveness. Two occasions in the last two days I've been defensive. I've also seen someone being defensive.

Maybe you might meet someone who speaks of a new idea. Don't dismiss it, it holds a message.

How do you know someone holds a message for you, firstly they may be attractive, stand out. OR it could be that you are attracted to something about them. THIS is the key to knowing that they have an extra important message for you.

Always try to see a silver lining in everyone you meet. Even if the silver lining is "Look he/she is a insecure child."

The key word is: Appreciation. Really appreciate the beauty in everything, everyone. This is how you feel connected and gain energy at the highest level.

Your control dramas drain YOU and others, how? Well when you see the blessings, silver lining in others you begin to appreciate to see the love within them. You then receive this beauty the energy from it. Once you've received this energy you automatically send it back.

So you each have energy, everything that YOU DO to others you do to yourself since it is a reflection.

YOU CAN GAIN ENERGY BY focusing firstly on something you see as beautiful, a tree, a plant, a flower, water fall, river. Even pictures will be okay. See its beauty, its shape, its colour, how it is formed, then breathe deeply and take in this beauty. Keep breathing and enjoy, appreciate. You'll feel energised.

As I said previously we are all energy balls, therefore if we see beauty, we attract this beauty.

WHEN we are in a group if we are conscious of each other we know when someone has a stronger idea and it will help us all. In time as we pay attention and listen to others and ourselves, we will know when we are meant to speak because our idea will hold allot of power and we will know we need to share it.

THEY key is: We need to concentrate on others conversations, really listen, when we give them attention, we give them energy and in turn we receive the energy also from what we learn to continue to grow.

Remember every interaction will teach you something.

When you are speaking and others listen attentively you will receive attention, energy also and in turn they will learn and grow from you.

WE as I said above have control dramas, ways we get attention from one another. They maybe in people pleasing, controlling, abusing etc.

FOR THESE control dramas to work we need a full circle, link up. For example if someone is criticising you and you don't buy into it, you simply go off and use your energy else where without saying anything. OR you set a limit and then detach and go off and do something for yourself, to improve your life. When you see this criticism is about the other person since it doesn't bother you anymore you can detach and concentrate on yourself.

If the criticism stung, then you know it is an area (button) you need to work on. So still say nothing and then detach and go and work out alone what you need to fix, which issue.

Then the criticism isn't bought into.

Or if someone is angry with us, we might say calmly. "I see you are angry. We will talk later."

This way you haven't bought into the drama. IF you would have yelled back or was defensive then you'd have bought into the drama.

For instance if you try to bend the truth to avoid pain, such as people please, or trying to clean up a mess and hid the truth. YOU are buying into the drama.

If you on the other hand face the situation head on and set limits on poor behaviour you are receiving and then detach, you are not buying into the drama.

THE GOAL of the universe is that one day in this millennium things will change dramatically. We will have automated services, such as clothes factories, food stores, transportation.

We will expose manipulations, (control dramas as above by facing truths) THEN we will be able to consciously share life stories and interact and learn from one another.

More of us will live near high energy fields where natural beauty exists.

We will eventually be paid money for our insights, our help in showing others the things they need to fix. The majority of us will work part-time in a paid job also.

THOUGH at the end of the millennium the time will come when money will no longer rule, we will each share resources and take only what our integrity tells us we need.

THE truth is the church are afraid to allow us free reins of our lives. WHY? because they fear the outcome. if we give up tradition and start living freely all this chaos that is happening will increase.

Well the truth is as we all know chaos comes before change. Before improvement, It isn't until you reach complete rock bottom and are so fed up that you make steps to change isn't that true?

Though fear fills church leaders minds.

For a long, long time I was so confused about religion. I believed in GOD, though the church was too controlling. I loved the beauty, the lake district and found peace there however, I just couldn't find my true spirituality.

I just couldn't find how I could get connected to GOD. Now I know. God is all around us, he is the beauty we need to appreciate. The trees, the skies, all the beauty.

God is always around us.

If you want to gain more understanding read "The Celestine Prophecy, By James Redfield"

When Ron told me of this book I didn't quite believe him. Though it is really changing my life, my goals, my future. I understand what I need to do now.

All Dr Irene's principles she speaks of in this site are all in the book. A wonderful book!

I truly feel I have guidance now.

Thank you God, Thank you Ron, Thank you Dr Irene, Thank you James Redfield. For sharing your insights. I truly feel I understand now what spirituality is about.

Take care Theressa

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

I can totally relate to these posts lately......even though Dr. Psycho and I have broken up......he refused to take responsibility for his crazymaking behaviors, never apologized, and felt threatened because I was changing my behaviors towards his abuse. I did not get abusive back - but I let him know I was angry. I set boundaries, kept my distance where I would remove myself when it got real bad, and told him 'enough is enough'. I really didn't WANT to however - I thought it would be the only way to make things work. They weren't working the way things were. And he would then remind me when I became vulnerable and 'let him slide' that I was then being a wimp. Total yuk! Every which way I went - he would deliberately sabotage anything loving, sincere efforts I would make just to create a scene for 'us' to deal with - another control drama I would call it. I couldn't win - and I never would. That's the only thing I have accepted. I can't accept the fact that it really is over 'yet' - but I have accepted the fact that I will never win. So, I threw in the towel. The last time we spoke - which has now been almost a month - he kept me 'hooked in' with saying we have unfinished business, etc. However, I have let that go to. This break up won't change *him* - but it has changed my perspective about him AND about myself. He was the abuser, I was the partner of the abuser. THEN, I changed, got stronger, however only quasi-stronger, then he 'rejected me' and I became the obsessive lover. That's the TRUE picture. You think I'm happy with myself knowing this? Its what I became through all of this crazymaking junk. However, my saving grace is that I've embraced my role in this. He doesn't read these posts (thank GOD) but yes, that's my cross to bear. That's my inner work that I've been working on. And I know in my heart of hearts that I can't trust myself around him anymore than I trust him - because I know I am easy prey with this man. And he will go right back into abusing me. (doesn't make it easy to live down the street!!!) So, I do have my work for myself and I am doing it - baby steps - because I know I am worth it. Each day I feel tiny progress. I have not called him, wrote him, etc. I do see him at the grocery store and we say nothing to each other. He and I both agreed to no contact until October. Am I hopeful that we will get together and reignite another relationship? No, I think the only guarantee is that I can see after 15 minutes of meeting with him I'll probably have to get up and leave because he can't help himself saying something mean. That's what I have to look forward to! So, my 'goal' is I won't be contacting him in October - and if he contacts me first - I will say that I need another 90 days before we meet. That's my *wish* for myself. In the meantime........

Love, Sharon

PS - I think I'm emotional today because I did see him last night in the store - he looked pathetic, bloated and torn up. I looked the opposite. Refreshed, fit and raring to go! Oh well! Snooze you loose!!

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear All,

My recent posts may annoy some of you who are religious. Though I freely give what I am learning and you take it if you choose to. Spiritual, more than religious. Either way, OK.

I believe that if we get connected we are not disobeying the church in any way. Nor God. I was told sometime ago by a good friend that if I say that I have the power over my life then I am taking the power from GOD.

She couldn't understand how connection worked, and everything YES does work through GOD/the universe. I WASN'T saying I was GOD, what I have been learning is we are all connected, the universe.

When I was a young girl we were taught God was sat up in heaven judging us all worthy or not worthy, he was only accepting of the good, those who didn't sin. So I guess if this is true will anyone ever get to heaven?

This made me feel shameful, judged and bad, in turn I judged others and was angry at their mistakes, and told them they'd never get to heaven being so bad. Because I felt judged, shameful and bad, I would lie, I would bend the truth, I would people please, I would do anything to avoid the pain of another's anger. Avoid the shame.

Then I read Dr Irene's site and I met RON. Ron helped me to fit the jigsaw puzzle together, to find out why I felt so bad.

I realised GOD isn't a GOD To fear. He does accept us all however imperfect we are. He helps us back up when we make mistakes and even shows us the lessons if we will only look at our interactions. He doesn't judge us, he lets us learn from our mistakes, and he gives us many chances to improve. EVERY interaction is teaching me WHO I AM and what I need to improve.

Then I will have no need to use control dramas to get attention, I know I have sane options and GOD will always provide a way if it is meant to be.

He doesn't want us to be ashamed of who we are. He doesn't judge us as bad. He sees us as growing emotionally, spiritually and in love.

God is a GOD of LOVE. GOD IS LOVE, the beauty we see. We experience his love when we truly appreciate all that is beautiful and look for the beauty in all. When we take care of ourselves, GOD sees us giving ourselves attention, energy.

It is through us accepting ourselves and loving and accepting the imperfect parts as well as the talents/blessings that we feel whole. Then we can see the love in others, appreciate them. See the blessings/talents.

AND REALLY BREATHE deep when we see this beauty.

God isn't full of fear. I never thought he was. For how could anyone who brings such fear make such a beautiful world.

THE truth is God is love, he is the beauty in everything, can you see him? Do you appreciate this love? Do you see the goodness the blessings in everything.

Everything has a positive key to the next door, if only you'll look.

The answers, doors to peace are all inside of each of us. Are we are dare to look.

Take care, Theressa

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

SO if you live in love, YOU don't need to do this out of FEAR of going to hell.

You Live in love, in appreciation of everything because it makes you feel tremendous, alive it is the goodness.

The truest enjoyment. Fulfillment. It all starts with the seeing the beauty in yourself.

Do you see it? I'm glad you do!

Love Theressa

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

The more beauty you see in the world, the more you evolve. The more you look at the your interactions and how you behave and others respond, the sooner you can change these behaviours that don't work.

The attention seeking behaviours, both victims and abusers use them, from people pleasing, to abuse.

Are you ready to grow and give up your control dramas?

Take care Theressa

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Sharon,

Never feel you have the upper hand. That is not what it is about.

It is not about YOU winning at last and HIM losing. It is about you using your energy to benefit you. Regardless of what he is doing.

He is not your business.

Take care Theressa

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Theresa,

Am I misrepresenting myself in these posts? Win or lose? In my case, we both lost something here, and we are both healing from our loss in our own way. Grieving takes on many faces, many phases and many levels of emotional states. I would think that you have done enough reading and research in grieving and loss to understand that anger, sadness, sorrow and depression are just a few of these emotions. If I can't post here my true feelings without being judged and being viewed as a person who is in the midst of a very painful breakup - then I'm posting on the wrong site, Theresa.  Ouchhh! Theressa's style must have hit a button... Please don't get defensive...

My feelings, my situation, and what happens to how I am being perceived, in addition to what I see and how I feel when I do have to run into HIM is my business. My feelings are too important. And I am NOT sorry for writing and sharing, I am only say that I feel misunderstood here, so hopefully my message got across. Thanks.

Hugs, Sharon

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Karin, Thanks for answering my post yesterday.. I am "the new person to post". You made a lot of sense, how now that I have stopped playing the game (doing my part to keep it going) he is angry. It is true, he is lashing out, trying to bait me...etc. I wish you the best in your "gaining strength, insight and empowerment".. :) take care xoxo

TO THE MAN who wrote yesterday, about his g/f's name calling, You said some valuable info.. just want I needed to read. I have been pondering this............ I thought I was setting boundaries, it's not like I just took all the crazymaking etc. You said, that no matter what they will continue to find ways to get around your boundaries. That is SO TRUE. Guess the second part of making boundaries is... follow through. And that means leaving. I am a little confused about the whole boundary thing.... would a normal person respect them ONCE you have stated them? Is that the sign of a healthy person? Where as with abusive people.. the mere mention of a boundary is a huge "green light" to try to break you down with? What I am trying to understand is............ do I need to become harsher with my boundaries.. or just be with someone who respects them the first time I say them? Maybe the bottom line is.. it doesn't matter.. you say them once.. IF they don't listen... you leave. This may seem silly to many of you, that I am clueless how this all works............ but from where I just came from, it makes sense to me why I would be confused about all this. It is a huge amount of energy to have to keep repeating your boundaries and having someone continue to push against them. Do we all have to do this, even in "normal' relationships? take care XOXO

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Sharon,

The 3rd. Step asks me to do three things:

1. Be willing to give up my NEED TO CONTROL.

2. Be willing to give up my NEED TO BE RIGHT, (TO WIN).

3. Be willing to give up my NEED TO BE EFFECTIVE.

For this Alcoholic/ Co-dependent NOT practicing the above results in PAIN for me and for those that I love. Both of my diseases tell me that I am the center of the UNIVERSE and, one more time , it is being done TO ME.

What I get here are FRESH ideas and PRINCIPLES in living HARMONIOUSLY. I take what I need and leave the rest. Emotions are what they are, they are touchstones for me to sit in, decipher, learn the meaning of - for Tim.

Some people teach me what to do, others teach me what not to do: Each is equally important.

What do I want to feed today? Black dog, white dog? That is up to me. I need to realize and be aware of which stick I'M CHOOSING to pick up. There is another end on the sick opposite the end that I'm holding in my hand - that end is called consequence.

If I am judging, critical, defensive, blaming, etc... I need to go look in the mirror and see the problem that is me. Big Guy puts in front of me just the lessons I need to learn, sometimes repeatedly, because Tim is a slooooowww learner.

Critical Mass...yup, Jimmy's right...witness it right here in Z Box...

Love, hugs and fireworks for the colonists...

Tim B.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Tim, Sharon here,

Bravo! I liked and welcome your feedback. Presentation and approach is EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Sharon,

It's the message, NOT the MESSENGER...Theressa has a magnificent wealth of experience, strength and hope to share. I listen for the message... I had to be taught that...

Love,

Tim B.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Tim,

There was no mention of Theresa in my previous message...so, I ask you both -- am I misrepresenting my thoughts here??? Tim's just trying to smooth things over Sharon.

You BOTH have a wealth of knowledge, and I have always appreciated both of your comments.

I have always felt the kindness through and reading over these posts. I never mention names because its out of caring and sharing with God's grace and love. And in the spirit of goodwill as well. However, it still stands with me that presentation and how one can approach matters and share thoughts in writing does make a difference FOR ME, especially over the 'net'.

I'm done. Enough said. Take care of yourselves.

Love, Sharon

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Eeek! Sharon! Don't go away!

Your seeing Dr. Psycho in the supermarket all a wreck was like my getting my stuff from the ex, who was a real wreck and a LOT younger than Dr. Psycho so with a lot farther to fall, on his blotchy, unshaven face, filthy house (3 guys live there) and one-single-pair-of-sneakers-one-pair-of-jeans scientist's wardrobe. He Looked BAD. It made me feel better somehow too. But unfortunately, it made me feel sorry enough for him that I tried to remember the good points - again - and began that email friendship that now I think is pure manipulation on his part.

I really related to your saying that you became the obsessive girlfriend just as he was pushing you away. At least three or four times over the last 3 years, I have found myself suggesting another try and not believing my own ears as I did so. The voice inside was screaming "Lucky Out! Lucky Out! Just let it go!"

But I don't know why they have to look so bad. Just enjoy it - that sounds weird. Imagine him messing himself up just in case he saw you, to pull your heartstrings! Ridiculous! (which is the scene I think my ex staged) And there you are, getting healthy! Hah!

I don't think your posts indicate a need to win. I've only seen a sincere drive to make yourself healthy, mind and body, and to free yourself from a seriously perplexing relationship with a psycho. Don't forget the message is about the messenger, and it's possible some people see their own need to win in your shared thoughts.

Love, Perdida

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Perdida,

I noticed that same theme that when the going gets tough they just cut and run. I guess that may be an attempt to remain in control. My husband even told me this 6 months ago that he needed me to love him and if he felt as though I would abandon him then he would just make the break so that he did not have to feel the pain of rejection.

When I established limits I was not attempting to reject him. I wanted space and time to put it all in perspective. I was willing to look inside myself to see what caused me to be a victim. I realized when I was young and raped by my Uncle that I felt powerless to do anything. I had this mindset as an adult. I became codependent and controlled my surroundings because I felt powerless and did not trust myself to be able to protect myself. I just brought these traits into me from my childhood. Now, that I got to go through the EMDR and Cognitive Therapy that I have removed the blocks of shame, guilt, and powerlessness. I now feel like I can do anything if I put my mind to it. I am human and accepting that I have to make mistakes to learn. I just can't use that energy towards "fixing" my husband. I am moving onto acceptance and letting go. I have to just hang onto the belief that I will be okay because now I trust myself to do the right thing and have the ability to reach out for help.

Now, that I have realized this my husband did exactly what he said he would do 6 months ago. I am just trying to filter all the feelings of disappointment. I thought if I knew why he behaved the way he did, it would make it easier or not hurt as bad. It doesn't I am still grieving over it. I feel like someone has died or we died....Just those little inner children in us are growing up. It's painful. He can't handle this pain, and says he is not ready to make that change. Perhaps, he is not comfortable doing this with me given my recent behavior. I get frustrated and act out so badly myself. I can see it's not comforting. I am sitting here kicking myself over my reaction. He has hung onto that as the excuse he needed to point the finger into my direction. I just told him, "It only proves that I am human. I won't do that ever again because it doesn't work or make me feel better."

The ironic thing is that I wanted the divorce in the beginning if he wasn't going to change. I was told that I had to prepare to move on and accept he won't change. Now, that he made this choice, and has basically gone back to what he knows best. In fact, to show me he would remain in control he ran out and filed divorce and immediately started pressuring me to do what he says or else time will run out. He thought he would be able to intimidate me back into submission. I received the divorce papers when he was being so cruel and mean. I am devastated! I am holding back every ounce of my being to not run back and say, "Okay, Okay, I will say it was all my fault." I have this feeling that I need to run in and "fix" it when I know darn well it would make the situation worse, and put me and my children in danger. Due to the possibility that it will escalate further in the future. Here I am back to thinking I should have just gone in to his therapy session, maybe he did change. I know darn well by his actions that he has not stopped trying to control and manipulate me. Oh, he made a crack "What do you think I am doing going in and conning the therapist". I just said, "I didn't say that." But, I was thinking "Yep, that's exactly what I am thinking given your recent behavior." I just added that "You would be just hurting yourself if you did do that."

I am going to my therapy session today. I know I have to work through this. I am going to really look into what distorts my thoughts that I would want to stay in a relationship that hurts. It just doesn't make sense. I should be relieved that if he doesn't change then I am free to go "make myself happy" without him telling me what to do the whole time. I am not. I am hurt and sad.

LisaMM

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Theressa...Kathy here.

Oops, guess my post didn't come across the way I meant it.

In actuality my brothers take more care of me than I do of them. My mother has a few idiosyncrasies but cares about me in her own way.

My youngest brother is the one who moved me when I left R in December. Never asked questions - just was there with one of his buddies to help me move. I couldn't have done it without him.

My other brother is really a nice guy and I never see him although he lives close to me but always seems to be working.

They are both fun to be with - we always seem to laugh about when we were kids and the goofy stuff we used to do. My kids adore both of them.

Anyway, I think that since I had contact with 3 of my 4 brothers last week, that God's trying to tell me that "Hey, you have a family - why not hang out with them?" Being with them brings back the person I used to be before I got "lost" by defining myself by the things my boyfriend did and said and the horrible pain I went through with my daughter.

Also, I just read through your posts about God...you're right. I used to have scary thoughts of God being nothing but a judge, to whom I was never, ever going to be worthy enough to stand in front of.

Thankfully, my family switched religions when I was in 7th grade (after sister #2 died, a minister from my Grandma's church helped us immensely and we began attending his church) and so began a change in my attitude from the God as Judge to the God I believe now is all-loving who on earth is a part of every person and living thing.

Tim...

Thanks for the reminder about the 3rd step. Especially the one about winning.

Enough for now...

Kathy

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hello again,

Who's misbehavin'? I ain't. I didn't understand the anonymous poster. That was wpb and he's gone now.

Noticing someone looks bad and remarking on it in the safety of a therapy group is not the same as needing to win. 

There is also a step about not taking someone's inventory, which got left out today... Sharon doesn't need me to defend her but I don't want her to leave, or feel like her efforts to make herself healthy are all about needing to win! Talk about a no-win! None of us want her to leave! So, I'm glad you're here to lend her support right now.

Thanks Lisa MM. I think you sound so great; I think I have said that before. Look at those divorce papers, and say to yourself: "LUCKY OUT!! LUCKY OUT!!" My ex told me I was leaving him before I knew it myself. They KNOW they are not acting right. Your life will be so much better. It's good that you remember that you are human!

Love, Perdida

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Thanks for the safety net here! If one was to really, really read my post I did earlier instead of just reading the "PS" then perhaps one would not have gone onto the concepts of the win/lose tangents, control drama dialogues which provokes even more shame to it all, and gospel bandwagons. Why not just say that? "Theressa, it doesn't seem to me that you read my whole post..." (Which by the way, I don't think is the case.)

My situation is not about me attaining all of the power and control; its about BALANCE. Its about getting out of a unhealthy, toxic relationship and all the other junk that goes with it. Its about a loss of a dream, gone are the hopes and wishes, of a relationship that I had wished could have sustained. However, the crazymaking behavior was no longer something I wanted to live with.

Its not about revenge, getting even or taking anyone's inventory other than my own. And if you really, really read my post you will see that there is my inventory being taken. Yes, I am looking and feeling better than ever. And yes, it is about the messenger, the message was loud and clear in a very unarticulated way. And thank you Perdida for sticking by me. I agree with you. All that is in your post. But, you are jumping to conclusions in assuming Theressa thought otherwise. That's why you ask whatever is on your mind first! Make sense?

Dr. Psycho is my business -- as he is MY past, Theresa. Yes, I still have feelings for my situation and I still have feelings for him. Your comments, though taken, were unnerving. And Tim, your reading into the control theme was also an unbalance of thought. Stop! Ask Tim if that's what he was doing. I suspect Tim was simply trying to smooth things over... though I haven't asked him...

I do not plan to go away anytime soon. Just for today.

Love, Sharon

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hi Sharon,

Kerfluffle!! Actually, I thought someone was taking YOUR inventory, rather than that *you* were taking Dr. Psycho's inventory... oh, dear, these helpful homilies can be taken both ways...

Anyway, it's not the messenger, it's the message - BUT - if the messenger said it, it's about the messenger! He he!  Giggle! Yes, when Theressa speaks, it is about Theressa, who is so delighted with her development, she wants to teach what she was taught. (And, I'm so glad she does!)

I was reading Kafka - I guess I will go back to it before I turn into a bug.

Love, Perdida

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Perdida, Sharon here,

Hey you little bug!!

That's how I took it! Giggle! Somebody was taking MY inventory -- all they read was my PS - I saw Dr. Psycho in the store - he looked bad and so other posters viewed that as something and created issues surrounding it. I'm not into tit-for-tat about righteousness and I certainly have my own battle scars from being in a bad relationship. But somebody taking my inventory is unacceptable. Nobody took your inventory. Why the button?

Now, I'm being viewed as looking to win - because he looked bad and I looked good?

I'm also being viewed as wanting to be in control??  Giggle... Maybe you do want to be in control? (Who doesn't!) 

Well, I have my own personal power back - thank you very much - and I also have taken my own inventory - thank you very much - and I felt that I was squashed and invalidated like a bug by the other posters. Yikes! No no! Some sore spot that you hate and find unacceptable got stirred up... Some sore spot about winning or controlling... Look at it Sharon. You are the one who is making any of this unacceptable, no one else... Wanting to win and control, etc., are normal aspects of human nature, not "bad" things. Winning and controlling are not the exclusive domain of the abuser... Anyway, you look at it cuz I don't want to take your inventory either.

Defending myself is the hard part, because I feel like I should not have to. Trubble agrees!

So, I think I'll join you in bug land for now. He says they're tasty morsels.

However, right now I feel more like a mushroom. - Trubble loves mushroom and is in the kitchen making you a mushroom and who knows what cake. Stay tuned...

Perdida, Let's go get some Latte's and call it a day! We can chat about old boyfriends, personal ads and all !

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Dear Perdida, Sharon here,

Thank you again!

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Hello --

My name is Brenda, a/k/a Betty on Dr. I's. I used to post here frequently. I still read and learn, and learn, and learn....and heal.

I've been reading for some time about the struggles that those of us who have lived with or are living with an abusive A can endure. Not all abusers are alcoholics or substance abusers. Not all alcoholics or substance abusers abuse their loved ones. However, for those of us who have survived an altercation with an abuser/alcoholic, I have one suggestion....as Tim says, you can take what you want, and leave the rest behind.....my suggestion is this....stop trying to make the 'relationship' work....the relationship is not going to work until both units get into the adult mode....which means taking responsibility for actions.

Yes, alcoholics love to manipulate us....yes, they are selfish....yes, they are great con artists, and yes, they are in denial and can convince the outside world that they are 'ok' and you are the one with a screw loose when you react to getting beaten, or your things broken...or you "over-react" and become the aggressor (I prefer this word to abuser...can you tell I've had a few buttons pushed?). Giggle! Cool to know your own buttons...  I guarantee that each of us who have lived through or are struggling to make it with a substance abuser will fail in that relationship unless the abuser gives up their first love...which is the substance. Tim, SandyB...put your two cents in, but take it from one who beat her head up against a brick wall for a long time...it is not going to work until that "first love" is no longer the most important entity to them. Ain't that the truth...

How do you get them to that point....as they say in AA...everyone hits their bottom alone....it is like an elevator....some get off early....some never do. I just want to say to those of you struggling with dual dependency as I have....abuse and substance abuse...from personal experience, I don't think it will get better until the abuser gives up the substance and decides to deal with their issues. Al-anon and Nar-anon gives us the tools to let them go and find their own pathway to healing and stop trying to fix their messes.

Take care....know that I, as SandyB told me many months ago....got a T-shirt from trying to stop a loved one from heading down a pathway of destruction....from tiny, little seeds....we learn....we grow....we understand.....and finally....as a whole human....we accept. Thanks Brenda/Betty.

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001

Sharon...Kathy here.

I hope you didn't take my post thanking Tim for his reminder about Step 3 as something I meant personally for you.

If you did, I apologize. I didn't mean it that way.

I thought it was helpful to me to remind ME that life is not about winning or losing - its about taking control of MY stuff and taking care of my SELF.

Hope you don't leave the catbox! We would miss you!

Kathy   Yikes, Sharon! Look what happens with buttons: They're now walking on eggshells to not upset you!

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Tuesday, July 03, 2001
 

Tim B,

I wanted to let you know I watched "High Fidelity" this last weekend. You had recommended it in a previous post. It was right on target!

I swear that movie cracked me up how much the main character was like my husband. He didn't "get it". He did not realize that each girl he dated taught him something about himself. There was even the statement about having one foot out the door. Yep, that's exactly what it feels like. My husband has never been able to commit to me in an intimate way. Now, I can see we both had a lot of growing up to do.

Today I vowed to just "let him go" and figure it out. I have faith he will "get it" someday. Good. Let go; you can't do it for him. But, as you let go, you fix yourself.

:) LisaMM

 

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

HI all, Wow, so many posts came into the catbox I have lost the thread. Welcome again to yet more new people.

Dear Sharon, I was just thinking that when you first came into the catbox you wrote some stuff about you and Dr Psycho meeting in the grocery store and what you wanted your reaction to be ( It was about the future) I wanted to ask how near to that future are you? I think you might be nearer than you think.

I kind of think there will come a time when you kind of post a few posts and then you will realise you didn't even have a need to say whether you saw Dr Psycho as he will have become irrelevant.

Dear Theressa,

On the God issue- I think often our first impression of who God is comes from how we relate to our father.........it kind of means with then home in on that aspect of God's character. I know I picked up fear so I was frightened of GOD.

I got really caught up in fear of judgment and so then the logical extension of that is we judge ourselves. The actual MESSAGE can be very different from what is heard.

I am not sure some days if I have the message...in my heart and not my head...for me it is all about the one who died for others to set them free...(Jesus). Actually the Christian message is all about it being ok to be a failure.....It doesn't actually matter if you fail as long as you turn away from the failure and start again.....the forgiveness is there.

But I think what happens is we confuse our earthly fathers imperfections with God and get totally muddled....So I fear; but the fear is not really of God it is of how my earthly father was and I felt about him.

Somehow it is all about getting past the feelings contact with other humans puts in us and to a Greater reality.

I don't think we truly find God's love until we see our own failures and realise how much we have been forgiven for ...then it frees us to feel .......but not all at once. 

I think it takes years to undo what our previous experience was.

I think I may be rambling a but so I will stop. I like the rambling... Good stuff!

Someone said about the husbands suddenly announcing they want a divorce....Jake was mentioned.. You know what, I think he is saying this but in reality what he wants is things as they are as they suit him....I don't know how he managed to gain so much control and just now I am feeling very overwhelmed as I don't think leaving is the answer.  No. Not for you anyway. Too many of your own issues are tied up in him. If you leave, you will escape, but only temporarily because you can't run from your issues. We went over this some pages ago...

I don't think I would be any happier if I left. But finding your way out of being controlled is hard and I don't think it will happen overnight. I have noticed something though. The first reply I get is negative and then after a while I get a slightly more positive one...I wish I knew why he feels he needs to do that? Who cares? At least you know what to expect, so you don't have to set yourself up for disappointment by expecting otherwise.

Oh I think I am going to stop writing. I don't have anything specific to say....still trying to look after the Self. Still feel like looking after the Self feels like I am being selfish.... .I don't know about fathers but that is what my husband taught me to feel...

I have never understood this but when I visited his family everyone else could go shopping with no comment and they usually spent a fair amount of money and everyone was ok with this but somehow despite the fact that I was usually looking out for something cheap from the marked downs, then I got the reputation for being extravagant....OOOOH I am just rambling today and have to get some sleep.....Jay And it bothered you... What they thought bothered you... Like who cares? (Paying attention Sharon?) Oh, Trubble's back...

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dr I said... No. Not for you anyway. Too many of your own issues are tied up in him. If you leave, you will escape, but only temporarily because you can't run from your issues. We went over this some pages ago...

jay said ooops ......actually I kind of still fuzz over when I read that particular page --keep reminding me. Maybe this is why God is keeping me poor and without a working car...I can't run from the issues! :) :)

? WHY am I fussing over - ?????i have to go out now but I will look at the relevant bit again before I see the counselor/ pastor tonight..........see I don't always attribute everything to coincidence...this on e has to be the big guy speaking! This is big stuff for you Jay. That's why you fuzz out. One step at a time, OK? jay

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Hello all; Brenda/Betty: I read your post this morning and it really gave me food for thought. Since M. moved out two weeks ago, he has been repeatedly telling me that it doesn't mean that we aren't a couple, just that we couldn't live together. At first that made a lot of sense to me. M. leaves, which means that he no longer comes here drunk, my vehicle isn't at risk, because he won't be driving it,I won't be angry when he drinks after work and doesn't bother to come home because I wouldn't be expecting him. Most important, the kids will never be subject to his drunken behaviors. Instead, he will come here and spend time SOBER only. It hasn't been working out very well (not for me anyway). And for the past few days I have been coming to grips with the fact. The reason it isn't working is exactly what you said in your post, Brenda/Betty. M.'s first priority was and remains his addiction, and taking care of his addiction. M. told me when he was here Monday that he wants to come over and spend the 4th with us. We agreed on that. I told him to call me Tuesday evening and let me know what the game plan was, if he had to work or not, which he said was a possibility. I didn't ask him to stop by, or not to drink Tuesday, just "give me a quick call and let me know when to expect you." He never did. I shrugged it off early in the evening, went on about my business. Then I was picking my son up from a friends. To do this I go right by a party pals of M. and his families. There was M.'s car, sitting out front with about ten others. The I was hurt and angry. Not so much that he was there, but that he couldn't have taken five minutes before the drunken revels began to honor the plans we had made of a phone call. (Not sobriety, just a stupid brief phone call!) No doubt he was drunk ,since history tells me that he has never been at Stinky Pete's (my very apt name for this guy) without getting trashed. I kept thinking that I wished I hadn't even seen the car. And how can we continue a relationship when he can't even make a phone call. It isn't like I give him any grief when he calls, or ask where he's been or if he's been drinking. I don't because that was the point of him leaving. So that it would no longer be my problem. The good thing is that it isn't. If M. has a wreck, loses his license, gets his car taken, etc., it's all on him. But that's the only advantage to me. M. knows where and how to reach me. He knows that little M. is cared for, that I am at home with children and not likely to be out and about, that the belongings he left behind here are safe. And that he can come here and stay a few nights a week, rest up in a clean bed, get decent food, wash clothes, and go again! I can't reach him, refuse to check up on him, never know when I will (or won't) hear from him, and can't count on him to follow through with any plans that we do make. And Brenda/Betty's post is exactly what is up with M. His first commitment and love is fulfilling that addiction. M. was unhappy that I had cleaned "his" garage. He is still emotionally claiming me, little M., and this home as his territory, without having any responsibility to us. I am facing the fact (slowly) that in order to have true peace, I will have to cut him out entirely. If I didn't want him messing up my life by being here, I don't want to give him the power to mess up my peace of mind with his absence as well.And he has no power that I don't hand over to him. I hope that I am making sense. Karin

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dear Dr Irene,

You ask: Theressa, how are you doing without Ron? Where did he go? Do you have a new therapist?

Firstly Ron's contract ran out a week Monday gone. He is still a therapist, he always worked at two practices. Both charity run. The one he is still at is Purely Family therapy, rather than person centre therapy which he did with me.

I am now on a waiting list for a new therapist. Ron feels I have all the skills I need. You and him prepared me well to work out my own problems, he feels.  I agree. I think it's time for you to spread your wings and fly with your new skills.

I feel okay. I know I have work still to do getting rid of my control dramas and getting balance in my life. I am getting better at taking responsibility for my life rather than others too much like I was. Giggle! Our work never ends!

In the last month I've seen how I behave and am working at changing these behaviours. Ron says it takes time, I agree. I understand allot more since reading the "The Celestine Prophecy" RON said this would explain all he was teaching me. HE WAS RIGHT. It's an excellent book. Written like a novel, it really teaches you to pay attention and accept what comes your way; that your direction is in there...

I do have a bit of confusion I want to share here though:

Ron told me that a child's wellbeing is very important, they need unconditional attention. This way they do not have to use control dramas to get attention.

He also said that children should be taught to take care of themselves healthily. Okay.

Well what I am in a quandary about is, Melissa has been letting her tops get very messy, stained. They cost me and her father a lot of money. YES I know money isn't everything.

Though where I am confused is If I am to teach Melissa to take care of her possessions and she just keeps spilling things on them. How can I teach her to respect her things and at the same time not criticize her for dirtying them and staining them constantly?

I find this hard to do, on the one hand say go ahead Melissa be spontaneous don't worry, and on the other say take care of your stuff?  Theressa, Melissa is very young yet. If it bothers you that she has stuff on her clothes, ask yourself why it bugs you so much.  She's happy. Why not you? (Control? Giggle!) Another thing, if she plays heartily and "becomes one" with whatever, why buy her good stuff? Get her some thrift shop things instead. The un-OK thing would be to restrict her from playing with all her heart, or make her feel uncomfortable that she's messing up good, hard-earned clothes...

Take care, Theressa

 

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dear Theresa,

Am I misrepresenting myself in these posts? Win or lose? In my case, we both lost something here.

Sharon NO your not misrepresenting. I just know that it is so easy to feel SO high when we finally move away that sometimes we forget that we too are broken and need to fix our own problems that brought us into this sort of relationship in the beginning.

For example: Our control dramas .

And we are both healing from our loss in our own way.

YES!

Grieving takes on many faces, many phases and many levels of emotional states.

IT SURE DOES, and I am not the slightest bit defensive about this, YOU ARE CORRECT.

I would think that you have done enough reading and research in grieving and loss to understand that anger, sadness, sorrow and depression are just a few of these emotions.

YES I know this, and I am not being judgmental I accept here in the catbox we all vent and show our anger. THIS is not my purpose. My purpose was just to share what I know and if you take it, that is your choice.

I know how it feels to feel that they (the abuser) is all at fault, and now we've got away from the monster. And then some of us, decide we don't need fixing.

YOU know I think that you need to work on your own self esteem, and control issues such as people pleasing you don't need me to tell you this.

If I can't post here my true feelings without being judged and being viewed as a person who is in the midst of a very painful breakup - then I'm posting on the wrong site,

SHARON I never said don't post your true feelings. Nor am I judging you. I have been through this process myself. AND YES I've been defensive like you are being. (Still am at times), I KNOW you are in the midst of a painful breakup. I also know how overwhelming this is.

AND NO, you are not posting on the wrong board. My purpose isn't to make you or anyone else feel bad. It is just to share my own experiences. If you learn anything from me, that is your choice. I learn alot here on the catbox from all of you.

Sharon I know why you are being defensive. And I know why you feel judged. When we feel overwhelmed with all these emotions and someone points out something to us, we feel vulnerable and feel judged as if we are wrong.

As we sort through and release all our feelings/emotions bit by bit we gain more control of our anger, or our feelings in general. Then with time we manage these emotions and things get easier.

Theresa.  Ouchhh! Theressa's style must have hit a button... Please don't get defensive...

My feelings, my situation, and what happens to how I am being perceived, in addition to what I see and how I feel when I do have to run into HIM is my business.

YES, I know this.

My feelings are too important.

YES they are. I had to have my partner around every other day since he had no where to go so he could see our daughter. SO YES i do know how hard it is having your ex close by and at the same time trying to heal.

I acted out lots. I felt overwhelmed and sometimes could have burst at having to be nice to him.

He would tell you if you met him how awful I behaved at times, and him also.

And I am NOT sorry for writing and sharing,

Glad to hear it.

I can only say that I feel misunderstood here,

No you're not misunderstood, I understand you clearly. I am no expert, but I can say I have experienced the overwhelming feelings your feeling.

So hopefully my message got across. Thanks.

Yes!

Hugs, Sharon

Sharon remember one thing, however, low you feel, remember you are handling all of this. You can do it, and you are growing. Each time you feel things are too overwhelming watch what happens. YOU cope! SO pat yourself on the back. Each morning you get up and each night you go to bed, pat yourself on the back for surviving and handling your day.

Even on the day you feel you didn't do so well, remember you are trying your best in an overwhelming situation.

Take care Theressa

(1000,000 hugs for you)

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dear Sharon,

I agree presentation and approach is everything.

I am not responsible for how others take my opinions.

Though I know how you feel when some smart a*se seems to say she knows it all. Well she doesn't. I make as many mistakes as the next person. The only difference now is I don't beat myself up anymore.

So I take you comment on the chin. I understand where you are coming from. You are so like me LOL

Take care Theressa

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dearest Sharon,

Presentation and approach is everything I agree.

But the it depends on the receiver. Why not look at the button this pressed, as you point out it is your wellbeing that is important.

I   get defensive and angry at things others say, just last night my sister pulled me up about something. She said it in the nicest possible way, but for me it was a button.

It didn't matter if she'd dressed up it was the button that was pressed that was the thing I needed to work on.

Sharon you've grown alot, you've done lots of things you should be proud of.

Recently though I learnt a great lesson and it is the one TIM speaks of: listening for my button when it is pushed.

Why am I spending this time explaining, because I wouldn't want you to feel criticized, judged, I KNOW only too well us victims feel this enough. (I'm glad you said that Theressa, though really, it doesn't really matter what you think of Sharon. Only what Sharon thinks of Sharon... But, perhaps we're getting too advanced here...)

THIS is a place of support, where all is accepted, so I just want to say WELL DONE WITH YOUR PROGRESS and to let you know I know how vulnerable you are feeling. Sometimes when people talk straight it hurts.

RON used to do it to me, and I'd go out of the therapy office and curse him.

Anyway May God bless

Love Theressa

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Theressa - you are so cool! Your spiritual growth is really apparent.

What a classy gal...

(and Sharon you too!)

hugs to both - and Tim B. as well.

Asha You too Classy Asha (who, by the way, emailed to tell me to get over here... ) Thanks again for the alert.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dear Sharon,

I re-read your post. I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. In fact I remember now the comment I made to you had nothing to do with your post.

It was just a comment I made just to share some information that Ron told me.

Your post seems healthy and on target.

Take care, hope this clears up any confusion. Theressa

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dear All,

Quote from one of the posts:

"Anyway, it's not the messenger, it's the message - BUT - if the messenger said it, it's about the messenger! He he!"

"Giggle! Yes, when Theressa speaks, it is about Theressa, who is so delighted with her development, she wants to teach what she was taught. (And, I'm so glad she does!)"

YES this is so true sometimes I just want to help others so they don't have to continue their pain. I feel so alive now, I just want others to.

ON THAT note, can anyone give me any feed back on how I might be more sensitive?

The problem is in the past I was so worried what others thought about things I said, NOW I might be shifting too far to the other side.

Any feedback??  Well, Theressa, you did nothing "wrong" though in your quest for perfection, you can be more aware of how the other person is "taking" your teaching - but that's very hard on a board where there are no behavioral cues...

Thanks all of you Theressa

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Dear Theressa, That is one post I can answer- about Melissa's tops...the thing is she won't have all the hand control and body control of an adult at seven. It slows after five but she is not an adult and kids are, mostly, messy creatures .....HKK still can't manage a clean T shirt for half an hour at thirteen...I really don't know how he does it but he can still get messy between dressing and school. I learnt a long time ago - you can nag about things and the child become worried and anxious and spills more and you can give up and dress kids in cheaper stuff and have a happier life....

In playgroup I used to think it amazing that parents would send their kids in Laura Ashley when they knew they were going to get really messy (that was always made clear in any group I worked with - we were going to get messy! )

It's easier when you accept kids just do...and believe me you will find the same messy kid will drive you nuts as a teenager because even the tiniest tiniest bit of not right stuff about clothing will be a disaster of gigantic proportion!

I hope...............giggle HKK could be an exception to the rule here...

I wanted to ask how you find it knowing Ron is not there any more...do you feel able to get on with life without a therapist now? Actually you are lucky to get one as I can't.

Perdida of you read too much Kafka it will send you nuts....

Sharon - have a glass of wine with the mushroom cake....I got some of my buttons pushed by my doctor today - bless her she kept her boundaries well and it made me feel very safe...weird though she said "jay we love you and are all rooting for you to be well....she was upset about me ending up in hospital . It is nice but very weird when the doctor talks like that....anyway she is a dear old thing and gave me some ignatia as she must have thought I was a bit weepy.....and yep I did it again...I ended by reassuring her that how she was is ok with me even if I wasn't going to take her advice....giggggglle I even care how my doctor feels......how stupidly codependent is that.....jay

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Theressa and all

I think there are 2 sides of the 'sensitivity' coin. The sensitivity to others, and our sensitivities to others' sensitivities. Sound complicated? hehe

The way I see it, there is the 'defensiveness' side, and the 'sensitivity/empathy toward others' side. If we just focus on working on ourselves on both sides of the coin, we'll probably do best.

I do think it's particularly difficult to give the sense of warmth or encouragement that we may be trying to get across over the net. People can "hear" a tone that may not at all be what we intend.

I know that at times I've "heard" a tone that probably wasn't there - especially from Dr. Irene when I think she is reprimanding me (he he!) If I feel that way, it's because inside I'm reprimanding myself. Thank you! There's a quote in the Course in Miracles that says "if I defend myself, I am attacked" and that "all attack is self-attack". We perceive attack and then we defend. This is where I think examining our *perceptions* is so important.

I think the key is not to worry so much that we are second guessing our every word but to make 'awareness' the goal, so that we are able to see other people's sensitivities and find effective ways of communicating with that particular individual. I work in an industry where 'reading' clients can really affect business relationships, and I have not met 2 clients the same, so far.

In a spoken conversation when I'm not sure about particular sensitivities, I like to ask "would you like to hear my thoughts/opinion about that?". It's a little more difficult here, because it would take forever to get the response and then the subject has changed by the time you post again. :)

Asking questions, rather than making statements (as Tim B. did) I think can "sound" less accusatory, I think. Yep.

A little humbleness, interjected now and then probably helps too.

If anybody else has suggestions on how to communicate sensitively to others, without "walking on eggshells" please suggest away. It would benefit me too!  Nothing yukky happened. There was a misunderstanding and a few people more clearly saw their buttons. Yippeee! Some emotions flew. No problem!  It was a win win for everybody involved. And, isn't it cool that people can misunderstand one another, be angry with each other, and tell each other, all without attacking them!  Wow!

take care all

Asha

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Sharon, Good Doc, Perdida , Theressa and that darn CAT,  Grrrrrr..... It's *My* Holiday today and I don't want to hear it FakeUncleTim.

The Doc hit on a good point for me to look at...trying to smooth things over! This is the role that I took on as little Tim standing between Susan and Jess when their last resort was to physically attack each other...when the volume had been CRANKED UP so loud that this form of CONTROL seem the only viable option to win.

EVERYBODY LOST.  But you won, now at least. The more aware one is of oneSelf, the bigger the winner they are! 

Sharon, I hurt your feelings by doing this. It's not my job to fix. I was wrong and I am sorry.. I need to look at this more deeply.

I prefer not to see you leave the box if even for just the day. What you have to say, think and feel are valuable contributions to my growth...

Love and a billion hugs,

Tim B.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Here is some words for the catbox. Words do hurt! After 20 years of marriage, my stbx said, "I don't know why I ever married you!"; "I never loved you!"; "You are worthless!" Now I am taking my power back, I know why you married me because at the time you found a person with no boundaries. And when I did set boundaries you couldn't handle the boundaries and walked out. You are right you never loved me you just used me! I am not worthless! I have worth!!!!!!!!!!! I will no longer even give you the time of day!

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Tim - what an amazing guy!

And.. "Where is Sharon?" - as Tim often says.

I hope you are planning to share that yummy (?!) mushroom cake with all of us.

Now, a question for Dr. I - is "trying to smooth things over" *always* a bad thing? Absolutely not!  It's not OK if it's running you; it's fine if you're running it.

Apparently, it is when our "smoothing" just brings us into the problem (when we weren't previously) and doesn't "fix" *anything*. But... sometimes you can bring greater understanding to the parties involved. How do you judge whether that's appropriate or not? You judge.

thanks

Asha

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001
 

Dear all, Sharon here,  Yippeee!

Here is a million HUGS back to all of you.

This 'exercise' (for lack of a better word) taught me something as well.

I have buttons all over me!

I came in today at work even though its a holiday (Independent Cat Day) to read and write some posts. I thought about this alot. When I came in and read all of your posts - I cried like a baby! I cried for you and I cried for me. Yesterday, I realized that I had to speak up and tell you how I felt about your comments. That's why I wrote my feelings as to how upset I felt. It was part of the growth for me to SPEAK UP and tell you how I felt. In my previous life, I would have read those posts - took offense - stewed about them for days - and said nothing.

My revealing my inner feelings - even the negative - I feel - created all of us to share in the same environment some of our 'stuff'. I don't take ANY offense to what was said now, as I realize it is part of my growing. And as a side benefit, I feel closer to you all and I hope you feel closer to me too. I deeply apologize as well as I may have 'acted out' in a heightened state of emotional turmoil. It all hit me at once.

I would like to get past this so we can continue to grow, share, move on, and restore the balance in our lives that God so wants us to have. We're already past it; glad you "got it!"

You are all warm and loving individuals and I felt a warm acceptance in your responses about this.

Somebody wrote about how hard it can be to write down what your really thinking - and how it may be interpreted. They were so right.

Again, Theresa, Tim B., I am sorry too. And thank you too for there is a reason as to why this happened! We are all part of the same energy!

Love,

Sharon

PS - the mushroom cake was the best!! Of course! *I* made it with *My* very own cute, furry little paws!

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

May we each discover the depths of ourselves by allowing trust to unfold within us, and compassion to fill and heal our hearts.

May we look to others as our brothers and sisters, and treat them with kindness and dignity.

We are all - everyone of us - deserving of love, at all times in all situations. Withhold love from no human being.

Know, welcome, and share the truth of who you are...

From: " A Course I Miracles"

Thanks Asha...I needed to be reminded of that. And, wpb, I'll remember that if you can post and look at yourSelf, without a hint of blame; taking responsibility is your ticket in.

Tim B.

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Wednesday, July 04, 2001

Tim B

I just re-read something I wrote, and realized it could be taken the wrong way because of my poor grammar - oops.

I said: Asking questions, rather than making statements (as Tim B. did) I think can "sound" less accusatory.

What I meant was that you usually ask questions. You also use "I" statements which I find non-threatening. And you are *very* humble.

And yes - that "Course in Miracles" has some pretty awe-inspiring content. I haven't read all that much of it, but what I have read has stuck with me - especially the defensiveness bit.

If I was truly secure with what I am, I wouldn't have a reason to defend myself, except of course to ward off physical danger, if that was the case.

thanks Tim.

***

Sharon

Your post pointed out to me how important it is for me to accept others' ways of expressing what is bothering them. If you had not expressed your feelings, others would not have been allowed the oppportunity to clarify or be understood themselves. All concerns are "important" and we can't know what is or isn't important to the individual.

*My* issue, is how I "hear" those concerns. There are times when others don't or can't understand or hear my good intentions, and I need to accept that that's perfectly okay too. That I don't *need* to be understood. Not that I won't try.. (grin) I just have to decide when it is or is not a worthwhile use of my energy.

I am realizing that I would much rather hear the truth about what's bothering someone, even when I don't like what I'm hearing (not talking about your comments, but other stuff in my own life). At least I know where that other person is "at". Even if we never come to terms with our differences, at least there is honesty, and that saves time trying to mind-read. What "is" will come out in the end, anyway.

A lot of people silently fume, then blow up because the other person "should" have known what they were thinking. The typical example is gossip that gets blown way out of proportion - sometimes even when the talk is found to be inaccurate it ends up having a life of its own.

And Dr. I is right, nothing "yukky" happened - I can only "make" it yukky by my reaction to feeling misunderstood, my feeling of helplessness about not being able to resolve a problem... or whatever it is I might be feeling. Theressa didn't walk on eggshells because of anything you said - if she had, I doubt it would have helped. In fact it may have clouded her true intentions. *And* her non-defensiveness (is that a word?) says a lot about Theressa's own sense of inner security.

I thought it was wonderful how warmly both Theressa and Tim B. responded, making it far easier to create a bond, than had they interpreted what you said as an "attack" and responded defensively.

There are some super-special people here in 'the catbox'... I think we'll be seeing Dr. Irene on Oprah sometime soon. grin. (but I selfishly enjoy the personal touch here - so I kinda hope it doesn't happen too soon... :) )

Enjoy your mushroom cake dear Sharon...

Asha

 

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Thursday, July 05, 2001
 

Dear wpb,

To your vanished proposal, I don't know how useful a standard Code of Conduct would be here. When somebody gets blipped from the CatBox it's usually obvious enough, to them as well, what Mortal Sin they've committed that consigned them to outer darkness. A catalogue of Venial Sins on the other hand, which only bring comment, would be impossibly long and complicated. There are just too many different ways of skinning a cat. Hey, wait a Human-pickin' minute! When people transgress boundaries in lesser ways there's usually more to be gained from discussing what they did, and why they did it, than from merely putting up a notice beforehand saying "don't do this and that." People mostly have to learn where boundaries are by practice, exploration, and bumping into them now and then. They're going to blunder into some of them anyway, whether there's a notice up or not.

Also, I don't see that anybody here is being given carte blanche to misbehave. The problem I saw recently was the opposite: good behavior being punished. A definite sequence of events occurred. Mousie indulged in some bad behavior here, got pounced on for it, then went away and let off a big head of steam to her friends in another place entirely. Then she thought better of it and came back here to "try again" (her own words). She confessed that she'd been angry, that she "sort of blew up," though that was neither here nor there because she'd gone away and done that in a speakeasy where the rules are different. She then listed her medical problems. These very significantly included the fact that some members of the mental health profession have given her inappropriate drug treatments in the past that seriously endangered her, whether through bad luck or incompetence is unclear. That does explain her hostility toward the profession, even if she does go around smearing its practitioners indiscriminately and unfairly. Finally she asked for help (feedback) about the appropriateness of what she'd said, all of which seemed a healthy enough attempt to renew rapport. Instead, her post got zapped.

Whether Mousie might have benefited from the CatBox is not for me to say. Still, it seems to me that if the mouse runs down the right tunnel it ought to find some cheese. Its learning is only going to be hampered if its choice of direction is rewarded with an electric shock. It doesn't mean much to the mouse that the shock was delivered because it ran down the wrong tunnel (labeled "acting out") several hours earlier and hadn't been punished for that yet, all the more so if that happened in a different maze in quite another researcher's lab. CatBox members too might learn something by understanding why Mousie is so angry, instead of just hearing that she is. Regrettably the upshot of it all was that this mouse, discouraged from running down the right tunnel, promptly ran down the wrong one again, the one labeled "angry reaction" or "going off in a huff," and succeeded only in reinforcing previous negative beliefs.

Since Mousie spoke of cartoons, I can only add that this incident reminded me of a cartoon showing a laboratory rat that had just found its way to the other end of a maze, only to step on a concealed spring at the exit that brought a big hammer crashing down on it and squashed it flat. A surprised visitor looks questioningly at the researcher in his white coat, who remarks smugly: "Whoever said life was fair?" All the best, V.  Very intelligent post V, and with truth in it. Nevertheless, Mousie got zapped because she needs to first do a little more work on herself in terms of self-reflection and taking responsibility. And, I know she can do it! Cardinal Rule: Never work harder than those you are trying to help... Second Cardinal Rule: Don't compromise the integrity of the group for the one.

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Thursday, July 05, 2001
 

Dear Cats,

Lately I find myself literally falling apart when he is disrespectful, abusive and domineering. By "falling apart," I mean shaking, crying uncontrollably, unable to breathe, feeling that I can't stay upright, and wanting very badly to run as far and as fast as I can. I think something is telling me that I've reached my limit. I need to hold on a while longer. How do I do this? With my son here, I can't totally detach from my H, as far as refusing to cook, etc. For example, I HAD to take him out of town to the eye doctor yesterday. He was supposed to have laser surgery and wouldn't have been able to drive (it's been put off). There was no one else.

I do tend to stay away from him most of the time, and have been sleeping in another room for a couple of months, partially to get away from the noise of the trains, partially to get away from him.

Tonight I went to pieces so badly I was stuttering. This is definitely a step backward for me! He still refuses to go to therapy unless I pay for it. I'm not so codependent anymore that I'll fall for that, but knowing that he is STILL dumping all of this garbage on me, is so demoralizing. OK, so you got emotional... Facing what is hurts at times. But, you kept your wits about you. You trust yourself more now. Keep it up and you will become stronger...

Words of wisdom? One nice thing happened today: my older boy came for a visit. he lives with his dad an hour away, works, and doesn't get here too often. We had a nice time vegging out watching the Godfather movies. He also told me that he got a call at work from Bob Barker! He is going to do promotional work for the CO my son works for, and Mr. Barker called to get some info. Cool, huh?

Wish I had wise words for the rest of you, but I'm a well that's run dry, right now. Becky

 

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Thursday, July 05, 2001
 

Why do I do these things to myself? I was curious, so I visited Jeannie's board. Now I'm really upset! Why? I'm not upset... People will think what they think... (I really appreciate your vote of confidence, but why are you more worried about me /them than about you?) Do they not realize that by personally attacking Dr. I and the people who use this site they are undermining their own credibility? The general message seems to be "Don't pay attention to the Dr. Irene worshipping idiots in the litterbox; they are so sick they don't understand that they are being abused by the doctor!"

If ad hominem attacks are the only way you can bolster your confidence in your "rightness," you can be pretty sure you're NOT RIGHT! Ad hominem is a form of fallacy; in other words a bogus argument!

Ah well, at least Wayne has a place to go.

I know that I'm not an "idiot" or a member of a "cult." So why am i upset? Seems living with my H would have made me immune to such talk. Which brings up a thought: why is abusive talk tolerated on a site dedicated to dealing with and healing from abuse? And would they tolerate an abuser posting and calling them idiots and "cultish" followers? Becky  Becky, perhaps one of the biggest problems with abuse is that abuse begets abuse... 

 

44 Edited and 43 FINALLY edited

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