Comments for Catbox 43

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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Tuesday, June 26, 2001

Dear L and everyone,

I know what you mean about thinking that they have hit rock bottom. When you finally put your foot down because they failed to stopped themselves from crossing the line. Then your the bad guy or it's your fault. I am thinking "Your the one who went to far?" Hey, I thought I was pretty nice being the only wife that did not complain when my husband was out with his friends, or having them over to sit in my garage until....I realized my husband had lost the ability to "do moderation". It became all he did all the time.

He would then "make up" for it the next day buying the kids gifts and me something new for the house. Just telling me everything I wanted to hear. My emotional rollercoaster just wasn't any fun any longer. I wanted off the ride. I was getting sick from all the chaos.

You know I agonized for weeks when I came out and realized he was an alcoholic and lost control of his anger. I realized I enabled the behavior. My whole concern was getting him help. I worried if he would be okay. I did the same thing as you did I prayed everyday for him and our family to gain strength and courage. I was willing to do all my work on me to become stronger. I was typing my resume to go to work just in case, and preparing for him to go into a treatment center. I made all the calls (at the time he claimed he would do anything for me). I was soooo devestated the day I was talking on the phone with a co-worker's wife that he commutes with when she said "Greg, says he does not have a problem, and does not know what your talking about, he thinks you have gone crazy." I literally just got off the phone with my husband an hour ago as he pleaded with me to "forgive him" and stated he would do anything it takes. Then I realized he was playing me for a fool. Oh, no once again, I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was just possibly embarrassed to tell the "guys" at work what's going on, etc. Now, I see where I was just missing it all together. I was sitting here caring about someone that did not care what this was doing to me, and or his family....He only cared about....himself.

My husband is getting a divorce but he appears to be having a great time? I am completely grief stricken and devistated. I can't even seem to make the phone call to my pastor to tell him because he was so happy for us. He thought he had saved my husband BTW. He thought God was touching him and making him into this wonderful person. He was just as shocked at the whole situation because here he had been sitting at our home giving us Catechism Classes at my husband's request. Then, boom....his disease takes over. He kept telling me to give him some time and he will come around. Nope, I guess I missed that he has wanted this all along and did not have the guts to do it himself. I guess by me pushing the issue that he go get help with his anger and addiction just gave him the excuse he needed? I am stumped? I mean here he was marrying me again in November telling me how wonderful I was and how great I was for putting up with him. He had me up on a pedestal as his "princess". Now, he is so cruel and mean that I hardly reconize who he is? I am left feeling so devalued and stunned I can hardly function properly. I guess this is me, right? This is my problem.

I have been bouncing back and forth between wanting to understand, grieving, accepting reality, and hoping for a miraculous recovery. Then, I clean a few drawers, cry, and slowly move on with my plans to start over. I am just so shocked at what has been happening over the last several months. I swear to you an alien snatched my husband....sounds crazy I know. I feel like I am purging all this yucky stuff and feelings out of me today. Like someone driving by an accident I can't help but sit and look at it? Then, I cry, and start cleaning again.....Yuck!!!

I am attending Alanon for me too. I guess my thinking is so irrational myself that I keep checking to make sure he is an alcoholic and self-centered driven to destruction. He has been blaming me for all that is going on. I just need a reality check from time to time.

I was thinking today in the midst of my "pity party" that "Where did I go wrong?" Well, we just both evolved into these grown up adults that never accepted responsibility for our own stuff. Then, I started thinking (BTW my head is sore from thinking) about a time when he went to church stumbling drunk. He smelled terrible from alcohol. He was grinning because he had promised to go but when I realized he was too drunk to go I said "Oh, are you too drunk?" Well, he was going to prove to me "He wasn't too drunk." Well, then he goes with me. I am just quiet and not wanting him to turn it around that I am ungrateful that he was attending church...DRUNK! (my bitterness now is showing) So, during collection he likes to help with the baskets. He is wobbling down with his basket hitting the parish members in the head. I have to laugh to keep from crying about this. Yet, here he is grinning at me because he went with me. I am just turning away thinking perhaps if I did not watch him he would not be so inclined to look back at me. That way he would stop hitting these poor people and ugh...I was turning ten shades of red. Then, he comes back and looks at me. He says, "What?" I just kept my mouth closed.

NOW....he asking me why I think he is an alcoholic and what did he ever do to show he was irresponsible by his behavior. I mean he is such a great guy he goes to church what do I want? I had to laugh today at how ironic it is that I have so many incidents in my head where I was worried about him and protecting him that I never realized what this is doing to me. I am just heart broken that I could be so forgiving all this time, but when I say I have had enough. He can not give the same back to me? I know this is part of my codependency and or unrealistic expectations. I guess I always assumed that he loved me the same but now I am realizing how conditional that love was. I was only loved when I went along with what made him happy or fulfilled his needs. As soon as I even asked for some of it back for me, then he just withdrew and became cold and distant. I am just completely shocked.

I know I need to "get over it" as my husband says. I want to know if it is normal to grieve and be sad? Of coarse it is.... how long? I feel like I am grieving a death! Maybe what you're asking for is appropriate...

Then how can he say my children are not affected by his drinking and this loss. He runs in pats them on the head, runs out and says "They are fine.". He is not here at night when they come in and ask if daddy's ever coming back? My daughter starting asking if our dog Barney (he's our 9 year old Bassett hound) was going to die? She says, "What if Daddy's not here when he dies." I am left here to rock them, hold them, and tell them it's going to be okay.

A question for anyone that may offer some thoughts on this: Is this all not normal to be thinking or be sad about? Am I really grieving like a child that just can't accept what is? If I was not so wounded inside would this be a little easier to grieve? My husband filed for divorce at the end of March. This is the first weekend he actually left to sleep at his mom's. He has been telling me this last 2 weeks that there's nothing more he is willing to do he does not have a problem. He says "Our marriage is over." He is in denial about his drinking and unresolved "stuff". I stopped trying to convince him. I am just trying to accept it and move on....Is three months too early to expect me to be okay with this?

LisaMM

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Tuesday, June 26, 2001

"Letting Go" -- Author Unknown

To let go doesn't mean to stop caring, it means I can't do it for someone else. To let go is not to cut myself off, it's the realization that I don't control another. To let go is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural consequences. To let go is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands. To let go is not to try to change or blame another, I can only change myself. To let go is not to care for, but to care about. To let go is not to fix, but to be supportive. To let go is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being. To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes, but to allow others to affect their own outcomes. To let go is not to be protective, it is to permit another to face reality. To let go is not to deny but to accept. To let go is not to nag, scold, or argue, but to search out my own shortcomings and to correct them. To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires but to take each day as it comes and to cherish the moment. To let go is not to criticize and regulate anyone but to try to become what I dream I can be. To let go is not to regret the past but to grow and live for the future. To let go is to fear less and love more.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2001

The discussion about alcoholism has me thinking: I wonder how many of us here has alcoholism and/or drug abuse somewhere in their family history? My maternal grandfather was an alcoholic, and so is my dad's brother. I imagine there have been alcoholics thru the generations on both sides. Neither of my parents drinks, nor do my sisters and I (other than occasional wine or a mudslide!). The legacy of codependency, fear, poor communication skills, passive aggressiveness, verbal, physical, and emotional abuse is alive and well, however!

Interestingly, when grandpa was in his 70's he quit drinking cold turkey! No ill effects. But the damage had been done: he had been physically and verbally abusive to his wife and kids, and continued to be hard to get along with. At the very end of his life he repented; too late for grandma who was already in heaven. It was very "telling" that the day of his funeral, his daughters built a fire in the fireplace, something he would never allow.

I have not married an alcoholic, but my husband is deep in his own disease of anger, hostility and cynicism. And just as the alcoholic expects his enabler to clean up his vomit and nurse him through hangovers, my H expects me to forgive and (most importantly) forget, shrug off my pain and smile so he can con himself into believing that he's just fine!

Sigh...............  :(

Becky

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Becky,

My family has alcoholics and abusive people in both my Grandmother's and Grandfather's side of the family. My mother was alcoholic and codependent. My father abandoned me. My grandmother was 13 when she started her family. My mother was 17 when she got pregnant with me. We have a history of babies raising babies in our family. The actual addictions vary but we just don't cope very well under stress and change. It's like the skills were never passed down.

My sister was pregnant by 17 and addicted to finding love. She was married 2 times. She has 4 children from 4 different fathers. She is now single, and raising the 4 children on her own. She has a job and finally has gotten self-sufficient. 2 Husbands were alcoholic and abusive. Hmmm....I see a pattern. The first was just too young and emotionally unavailable.

My husband's side of the family Adoptive Father was alcoholic and VERY abusive and controlling. Still is controlling in fact, he does not care for me one bit. Accused me of needing an exorcist and should just give my husband more sex and not tell the community about "our little problem". I gave him a little piece of my mind. He won't be back to have anymore "chats". In fact, he went to my mother to convince her that I needed to be cut off from my therapist put on mineral oil, and taken to a mental hospital. He was convinced after I came out of my FOG (my emotions were intense, I lacked impulse control at the time) that I had multiple personalities. He said, "He had a friend that could help her have me committed." My mother said, "He won't be over here anymore to have anymore "chats". Husband's Mother is codependent and very very passive aggressive.

When I was in high school and stayed the night over at a friends house was the first time I ever met anyone that was "healthy". Now, I have no idea what went on behind close doors. I am sure they had their problems like everyone else. They just had this openness. The got together without all the resentment and bitterness. It was a given that the love was unconditional. I still call once and a while to check on how everyone is doing they are still very close and loving. Always has made me feel welcome. I wished I could have that growing up.

I like to have a nice frosty drink w/ an umbrella on vacation. I believe I am actually allergic to alcohol. I get this tingling sensation in my jaw that actually hurts sometimes. Especially with white wine. I have no desire to drink at all. Makes me too tired. I love chocolate and ice cream. That's my weakness.

:)

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Dear Lisa MM,

I think it is perfectly normal to react the way you do. Of course you feel sad and grief. It wouldn’t be normal if you didn’t! I know from experience there is only one way to get over it and that is to get through it. You need to feel the pain to be able to let it go. It will pass, even thought now it might seems sometimes it will never go away. I think actually you sound pretty much together in the way you tell the story. Don’t blame yourself for grieving and forget the shoulds. There are none. Whether three months is enough to recover or not, depends on so many things I guess, no one can tell but you. When you are still sad, feel the pain, there is a lot to feel pain about in your story. You need to grief.

When my husband left me, I was in so much pain, I could not function at all. He was leaving cause he realized he did have a problem (not alcohol, but lots of other stuff) and he needed to sort that out himself, but he kept telling me he loved me. It was a crazy making experience and it took me quite a while to recover. We all get into a marriage hoping it will be forever, so when it ends, one way or the other, we grieve, we grieve the partner we taught we had, we grieve the ‘bad choice’ we made by marrying them in the first place, we feel guilty we haven’t done enough, we feel sooo alone en helpless. It is a trying time, but also a time with great possibilities for growth. When I look back I can see that clearly. You are thrown in the deep, so you learn to swim. It gives you more confidence in your own capabilities, it brings friends closer to you, cause you really need them. I remember at the time I would tell myself: well at least I am learning things and then think, what the heck, I don’t want to!!!

But in a strange sort of way I am glad of the experience. It did make me more whole in the end. And at times I am still grieving the loss of my ‘innocence’, it makes me sad things could not have been easier. But live is what it is. Right now C. And me are trying to get things together. We both learned a lot from this, and I hope we can help each other on the way of really growing to be responsible adults. We try to find a better balance between helping out and caring for our own needs. It is not an easy thing to do and at times I’ve really had enough. But there are rewards on the way and I see both of us growing and there is still so much to learn.

Right now I feel sad and guilty. I told him I do not want him to leave with me yet, that I am not ready, I do not trust myself enough yet. He needs a place to live and I denied him one. I know I did the right thing, but is is hard not to feel guilty. I also feel sad cause I so would have wanted to believe everything would be just fine, but i don’t have that feeling yet. So it is no for now. But is does hurt. I have learned that grieving and pain is a natural part of live and that as Dr Irene (or Les?) Quoted somewhere: we are not entitled to anything. We can make the best of what we have and try to improve. We need our dreams, but we need to learn to be more realistic about them.

So, quite a sermon this post, but your story really made me feel sad. The old question, why does it have to be this way? But there is no answer to that. It simply is. Yes...

Take care, love and hugs, AJ

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Hi Asha,

Your fear of losing your parents is a big one for all of us. I guess we have to trust whatever happens God will send all the support we will need, and attract all the people we need at the time.

My mom is a true God send she has helped me continue with my career and looks after my daughter whilst I work. Without her I would find it difficult but I'd have to overcome this difficulty.

My nana always helps me out financially whatever I need. My sisters and partner help by minding my daughter so I can go to college and study.

Though I guess when the time comes for them to go it is A CHANGE, and well we all have to go back into the infinite some day.

RON my therapist put it like this: Whenever there is a change there is death (ending), when your co-dependency dies it is replaced by security and trust in thy self.

When flowers die the soil is ready to refertilise. When a child grows up they become a teenager, then an adult their childhood dies.

YES there are always memories but you can't ever go back to before the death experience took place.

Each hair on your body, each skin cell dies and new ones are born.

Death is part of rebirth. Death is part of change. Where there is change there is death.

I never thought it was true but when someone dies they make room for a birth.

When I had to say goodbye to RON on Monday of this week I was sad but I knew that meeting him was the best thing that ever happened to me besides my daughter. He gave me back my life. I accept all the gifts he'd given me, I thanked him and new he had to continue on his journey now. God had only ever lent him to me. HE was never for keeps. HE was just their to teach me the lessons I needed to live my life healthily.

So I understood he was attracted to me for a reason (GROWTH), now I had to let him go. I think this is the case with all the people in our lives. They are only ever lent to us. We can never keep them forever. We have to enjoy them whilst they are here.

We need to know we can always cope and handle our lives if we trust in GOD (in the universe).

Take care Theressa

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Becky,

I lived for about six months before I eventually left like this, however, I had no choice but to leave, since my fear of him leaving held me back from exercising my personal power. YOU CLEARLY DO NOT have this problem detaching.

Basically you just get on with your own life. You are respectful to him. You treat him like you would any one else who came to stay in your home. HOWEVER, you are not co-dependent people pleasing and and doing doing for him to make him happy.

You don't walk on egg shells. Basically you LIVE YOUR TRUTH. This means you are honest about all you do. YOU DON'T HIDE anything, then you allow him to react as he will, and then you disengage by setting a limit. "Please calm down." and if he continues "I will discuss this later". THEN YOU DETACH and go and concentrate on your life, your responsibilities.

SO The main thing is to concentrate on your responsibilities, live your life, however, be respectful to him. EVEN if he is disrespectful to you.

You can tell him "I need some space to work out what I want so I am going to work on my responsibilities and life, I will be civil with you, however, I won't be taking care of you during this time. So we are both responsible for doing our own cooking and household jobs."

He might start to yell, curse you, tell you your nuts, if he acts in any way abusive set a limit "Please calm down." and then detach if he continues "That is what I want and I do not wish to discuss it further."

This is about having self control over you. WHEN you are co-dependent you let life control you. WHEN you have self control you inform others as above, then you have control of your self.

ONE WORD of warning when you do the above live in the same house but detach totally as described above, don't act out. THIS means decide what you want to do and do it but don't PURPOSELY not do things to spite him.

For example don't leave dirty pots all over so when he comes to use them he can't. REMEMBER to be healthy you must be responsible for your environment. If it benefits you cleaning your house then do so. Don't be concerned that you are benefiting him in anyway.

When you don't fight it is you who gets peace. YOU might think, hey is Theressa nuts what am I getting cleaning the house etc and it is benefiting him.

WELL you are getting PEACE the truest kind. IT IS ABOUT YOU GETTING PEACE, not you people pleasing him. YOU do what you can. You do what improves your life.

You don't clean cuz he says so, you do it when you can honestly do it. NEITHER though do you not do it just to spite him.

You take full responsibility for your choices, your life, you don't waste energy worrying about what he is doing, or not doing. YOU do what you know will benefit you.

Hope this helps. Theressa

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

TimB,

Well done for your honesty, when you are true to thy self, you can't be false to any other person.

I can now see clearly my anxiety squelching behaviours, (those ways I avoid the discomfort) The main one is a I talk too much when I am in company I am uncomfortable with, or don't know well.

To ease the discomfort I talk, In addition I take the focus off me and talk about others, their problems etc.

VERY aware though at times I am still caught out. MAYBE I still have to learn from this.

WHAT is most insightful is I see clearly also the bullies in my life, the abusers, those who try to steal my energy. NOW I know this I don't have to buy into their games.

I can do nothing and realise it is about them. I LOVED the quote: "If YOU said it, it's about YOU. If YOU said it about ME, it is still about YOU. If YOU did it, YOU live with it, not me. If YOU did it TO ME, my only responsibility is my own REACTION. If I did it or said it, ONLY then am I responsible for it."

This is so helpful. Thank you for sharing it.

WELL DONE TimB for knowing your worth it, enough to stay on track.

Take care Theressa

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Kathy,

When we have bad days they are sent to let us practice our skills of acceptance and knowing that we can handle them, dust ourselves off without beating ourselves up emotionally. AND pat ourselves on our backs to say well done when we get through them.

THESE days are like examinations. They show you where you are up to and what you still need to work on. TAKE THEM as blessings.

Take care Theressa

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Becky,

You sound great!!

YES to live in the reality, the truth. So he can face reality and face the pain. And you can handle his anger with setting limits and detaching.

WHEN we live in reality we are free. We are not free when we try to people please, or try to bend the truth to avoid the pain. OR to avoid their anger.

It is through letting them accept our truth, or not accept it, but letting it be so by sharing it, we are set free.

The truth is when we heal we see just how sick they are. Though we let them be, for it is where they are meant to be at, at this time.

Take care, WELL DONE, you come a long way Theressa

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Fantasies are more than substitutes for unpleasant reality; they are also dress rehearsals, plans. All acts performed in the world begin in the imagination. -Barbara Grizzuti Harrison, 1941- American Author & Publicist

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Aha, now we're on to nuclear physics! Do I want to be a Proton, a Neutron, or an Electron? I can't (read "won't") resist that question! But I would like to show how many choices we have in life, how we don't have to limit ourselves even to those we seem to be offered. The way I see it, Theressa hasn't just offered us three choices. She's reminded us that we have the entire Standard Model of Physics, with many fundamental particles to choose from. So I think I'd like to be a Quark. Then I can have Color, Charm... and Strangeness. This last quality is especially adaptive if we need to find a place in the Universe, because the Universe itself is nothing if not strange. The whole thing, after all, was just an idea in the Mind of God. I hope I'm not offending anybody either by mentioning God here, but sometimes it's hard to avoid. If I said "the Universe was just an idea in the mind of the Universe," I'd only sound silly. Solipsism is OK, but recursive solipsism? Never mind, being a Quark looks very appealing. I could even make up a poem about it. What rhymes with Quark? "Dork?" No, scrub that; too obvious as well as unflattering. "Cork?" Oh, there's the Universe giving me a hint; see how helpful it is? It's telling me I'd better put a cork in it and get out of stream-of-consciousness mode before I've got Mousie thoroughly convinced that this is Prozac Palace after all. Though even if it is, better a Prozac Palace than a whole "Prozac Nation," as that book was called. So may the Strong Force be with you all, and may it never keep you stuck in the wrong place.

The Boson's Mate

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

LisaMM,

You are going through a grieving process! It's okay! Believe me, I still have my days. Whatever is causing the craziness (alcohol, anger, control, combination?), our worlds have been rocked! This is the person we love, and this is how they now treat themselves and those around them?! I've given up telling my STBX what his problem is, it's pointless, he won't hear it. I just that I can't deal with living this way anymore, and neither can his children.

One quick recommendation...I'm reading a great book, "Spiritual Divorce". Highly recommend it. We have choices in this situation too. We can mourn (which is normal), but we can also start moving forward on how there is a real growth opportunity from the situation.

Hang in there Lisa....you've got lots of folks rooting for you.

L

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, And remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly & clearly; and listen to others, even the dull & ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud & aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain & bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing future of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself.

Especially, do not feign (Feign = pretend if you don't want it) affection. Neither be cynical (disrespectful in your dealings) about love; for in the face of all aridity & disenchantment it is perennial (enduring) as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue & loneliness. Beyond wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees & the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours & aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery & broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

Written by Max Ehrmann in 1927.

Words written 74 years ago however still hold true today.

And, will probably still hold true 74 years from today!

I first read this writing when I was a teenager - the words & thoughts influenced me and have stayed with me over the years. Share this poem with a teenager Or anyone in pursuit of personal growth it may influence their life!

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Hi. After some time of asking my husband to leave our apt., last month he finally said that he would. For about a year none of the 'really bad' stuff has gone on because I have pulled out of the relationship so much, but the covert stuff and the just going nowhere was destroying me. So I said good but please wait til end of June til I find a better job. I have enough savings to float me for two months but after that I don't make enough in my current job to pay for rent and utilities. I haven't found a new job yet though I have made headway doing my resume, investigating carriers and getting hooked up with my grad. school job net. Today my h. said, are you sure you have enough money to pay the rent next month? I said yes. The thing is that I know this is the irresponsible, incorrect move economically speaking. But I think something in me feels that if I don't get him out of my life now I will end up the beaten insecure dead woman that I have become. I also wondered whether my health would improve when he is gone. I would love some feedback on my actions. I sort of don't have a 'little voice' at the moment. Feel a little dead. The whole month of June when he was 'helping me out' by staying ,he kept harassing me about finding a job and was more pathologically messy than ever. I'm just wondering if without his presence I will feel better. Thanks for listening Mary

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Is it not a marvel that every living creature has its special place in the great scheme of things? Bees spread pollen, pigs provide meat for sausages, and dogs give the elderly and bewildered some companionship. I was struck by this astonishing fact on a recent visit to Brighton. Whilst promenading along the sea front I observed a small crab, shuffling in what seemed a futile gesture, towards the shore.

''What is the point of that animal,'' I mused, ''with its sideways movement and large pincers? Such crustaceans must be pointless, and yet the Lord has put nothing on this Earth merely for aesthetics.'' But my ponderings were disturbed by the screech of a gull, swooping down and pecking at the crab until its weird motion was halted. The gull, having received nourishment, flew off satisfied.

So I implore you, while you are enjoying the lovely beaches of the British seaside this summer, don't let your offspring build sandcastles (which are, after all, tiny shrines to siege and conflict). Instead, urge them to make miniature sand altars at which crabs can pray. Assure your children that the prayers of the crabs will be heard, because as I learnt that day at Brighton, God created crabs for a purpose.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

:)

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Steve here

I was talking with a friend about, what else? Our partners. We both feel the same way. That is, that our partners seem to consider us 100pct to blame 100pct of the time.  Anger will make each "side" feel that way Steve.

If we ever say anything, with love and sincerity, that indicates our partners may have some things to work on, they get severely offended and want to say, "it's only because you made me, that I behave like this".

In other words, we are always carrying the full burden of the health of the relationship. Nothing is "always."

Because we have become somewhat aware of our own denial, our own bad programming, sometimes we can see people acting very much like us.  Giggle!

And we know how difficult it is for us to see our own denial, so we can understand it is hard for most.

That being said...I feel emotionally drained of energy. I cannot continue to carry the full burden alone. I can carry my part, and work on those things that are mine. That's good for me. But I cannot work on things that are not mine. I don't have the energy, the skill, nor do I think it's a healthy thing to attempt.

It's hard enough working on me. Often, the hard part is figuring out what parts are you and what parts are them...

Steve

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Do I smell satire on the sea breeze? ;)

"Les pierres ont été formées pour être taillées, et pour en faire des châteaux, aussi monseigneur a un très beau château; le plus grand baron de la province doit être le mieux logé; et, les cochons étant faits pour être mangés, nous mangeons du porc toute l'année: par conséquent, ceux qui ont avancé que tout est bien ont dit une sottise; il fallait dire que tout est au mieux."

Yet all is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds so far. All we have left to do is improve it a little. ;)

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

What to do, I'm a very ashamed 32 year old male! I feel like a coward and spineless for even writing this post, but i need some serious feedback or I'm going to have a full meltdown. I have been married for 5 years and have 2 children, one from my wife's previous marriage and we have one together. I have been denying it for a long time but I'm still here for the children! My father left when I was 2 and I really hated not having him around and that was never. I would never abandoned my children but the guilt of not being with them all the time is just eating me alive. Here we go....... My wife is both verbally and sometimes physically abusive. She drinks and while I don't think she is an alcoholic because she doesn't drink everyday, it seems when she does a light switch has been flipped and the animal has arrived! The verbal stuff has run the gambit of, put-downs, accusing me of where I've been, says I should go out with my friends and then turns around and would go off because I did, tells me men down the street would appreciate her more, my dinner given to the dog because I was a half-hour late for dinner, purposefully embarrassing me at functions to show everyone that I won't do anything about it, threatens to move the children 1800 miles away if we split up, I was once woken to the rage of an intoxicated animal at 3:00 a.m. because there were one to many loads of laundry left in the laundry room which subsequently led to her trying to drag me down the cellar stairs by the hair and make me do it right then, punching ,slapping, poking, grabbing and the like do occur but are not a constant behavior, and somehow after all is said and done I feel myself wanting her still and yet knowing it is not a healthy relationship to be in. Not for my kids and not for myself!

I have had a series of 4 knee surgeries in the past 2 years and haven't worked since then. It's hard on us financially and I'm sure it bothers her( she tells me every chance she gets about how I'm a loser and don't provide enough for the family),it would me too, but the scars attached with the abuse make me feel that I can't help support my children if I leave on my own. I find no happiness in coming home anymore and if I try to do something outside the family or her, it's trivial or a waste of time and it only makes her more abusive so I just don't bother going to friends house or go out without her. I also have been a musician for many years even before I met her and enjoy it very much. God gave me a talent to write a pretty good song at times and I can sing with the likes of almost anybody. She has for years told me how wasteful my time is with it and I'm just a dreamer. I don't really know how I remained in the music industry for as long as I have but I feel that if she has her way she is going to ruin my name and reputation that I have worked hard for many years to achieve some level of success. For instance she has on many occasions been supportive of my being a musician but it will be the first thing she attacks because she knows I love doing it. She will invite my musician friends for dinner and then attack them after they leave with her words of wisdom (and she wonders why I don't invite them over anymore). She once was so drunk that she started disrobing in front of our company and practically started to masturbate right in front of them. Obviously I was embarrassed and asked everybody to leave and found myself apologizing for her actions to everybody else.

She was married to an abusive man before we met and I know it's no excuse for how she acts but I really can't take anymore! Her parents are strong drinkers still to this day and were like that when she was little, she forever apologizes for everything even little things (not so much anymore), even accused me of being a coward cause I wouldn't hit her back after one of her outbursts. I am very worried that I'm not going to take it one day and really lash back at her with 6 years of rage I've been holding inside. I know it's all mind over matter but I can slowly feel myself losing my grip and I don't want my children to see me like that. I need to stay for my kids but I'm slowly dying here. I can't even see myself anymore. I don't feel , I just live day to day to day.......  Living day to day is fine; the rest is not...

Thanks for listening Helpless

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Some help!!, I am 16 years old and currently (well not exactly at the moment) dating a guy who has just turned 19. We've been together for 8 months now and from what I've read, been told, and seen...I AM in an abusive relationship. I suppose it started with the control...not being able to go out with my friends, not be able to talk to guy friends ANYWHERE (public, phone, Internet). Another thing is that he lies. He lies about where he's been, who he's been with, what they did. But if "I" did that...he would probably kill me (not literally but ya never know). Eventually it became physical. He would squeeze me very hard on parts of my body that hurt. I would pinch him back or tell him to let go and he would pinch me as I was pinching him while he was STILL squeezing the area he began with and would tell ME "LET GO!" and I would say "But you are still hurting me..." So when I would let go, he would stop hurting me after a few seconds. Then one time we came home from a baseball game and he was so nice to me in front of his family. He was telling me he wanted me to stay at his house that night and stuff like that. When he took me home he said "I don't want you to come home with me now, I was only telling you what you wanted to hear" and then we got in an argument and it became physical. But somehow, a week later I took him back because he wrote me a letter of apology, wrote one to my parents...said it would never happen again. So I continued seeing him. That was 2 months ago...and the emotional abuse has just escalated from there. We were on and off and he would break up with me and blame it on different things like my mom drinking, or telling me I was a "bitch" or something like that. One time he screamed at me on the phone that it was over between us and to get it through my head. So the same day I went to the beach with a friend of mine. Well when I got home he said to me "I can't believe you went to the beach without me...I was going to take you back but never mind now". It's just this constant emotional roller coaster. But 3 days ago...we decided to get back together and give things a chance. Everything was fine all day. We spent the whole day together and later at night his friends came to his house to swim. Well one guy brought 2 girls from another school. I was tired of swimming and I was really cold so I sat out. Well I could tell my boyfriend was flirting with this one girl and I kept giving him dirty looks and he would say "Come on, get in!" and I would tell him I was really cold. Closer to the end of the night I said to him to come over to me. When he did I said "Kiss me" and he said "No! You're going the f*ck home." And I didn't know what I did. So he tells all his friends to meet him at this gas station. He tells me in his vehicle that I'm going home and he doesn't wanna be with me anymore and all I do is complain and bitch. I said "Don't you love me anymore?" and he said no. When he dropped me off I didn't want to get out...I was afraid for him to be with those girls. But he said if I didn't get out he would hurt me again like he did after the baseball game. He was calling me names and telling me to get out. Well the next night I found out he drove around with that other girl all night. And he was taunting me online saying "At least this girl can drive" Because I don't have my license yet and he was upsetting me so much. But yesterday afternoon he called me from work to let me know that this girl is soo much better looking than me. He said looks wise and body wise she is so much better than me. I haven't heard from him since then but my problem is that...I can't stop thinking about him. Even though I KNOW he is abusive and I shouldn't be with him...it's killing me that he is with someone else after we were fine 3 days ago. What do I do?! Help me, please. I'm starting to have some bad thoughts for my self. Don't go there. Ask yourself instead why you put up with such junk, and work on not selling out again.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Hi all, and to the new people....

I am going to be totally self absorbed still - only the first time round I took it as a thing to be ashamed of...I know now that for now to survive I will have to be for a bit....

Admitting I actually am not surviving ok is part of the healing.... I found out something about Jake's counselor today - I don't know where he got this woman from but she is not picking up on the real issues and if Jake is to be believed saying stuff to him like 'your wife is dangerous!" Maybe she isn't but she has NEVER seen me and she also rejected the Patricia Evans book The Verbally Abusive Relationship  as irrelevant...... I think she is probably now clinically trained and hasn't a clue what she is dealing with - IF dear counselor you have learnt about this you are encouraging a man to disagree with his wife on everything in front of the child to the point of condoning it when the child disrespects the mother and I have had enough of this. YOU ARE ENCOURAGING MY HUSBAND TO ABUSE OUR CHILD.

If you had seen me once even you might be qualified to comment; but you are making things worse and my guess is you are a volunteer at a well known marriage guidance organisation...

I hope this post is not abusive Being angry and asking questions is not abusive! - but if this junk is what he is being fed then no wonder Jake is like he is ----It seems as if there is no justice in the world at all. I am just sick of counselors who can't see abuse as it is.....

I spent part of the day in the hospital and they checked my thyroid - don't know the results but it figures with the swollen feel which drive me nuts and I do feel really yucky today and rather tearful ...Theressa I have tried to book a break on a Christian retreat house..... I just wish they had spaces now and not next week as I think more than anything I need a rest from everything....

It won't be very far from where l live but the view is better,.....anything rather than end up in hospital stressed again ..The stuff with my daughter just hurts so bad just now....

The hospital did come up with something about the drugs though...I was taking pain killers to medicate the pain ....ie physical remedy for an emotional symptom...now I know it makes sense and maybe won't happen again.....It seems like I would have to break down and SCREAM to get any ongoing regular help and unfortunately or fortunately I am too sane for that ( at least sane enough to scream where no one can hear!)

Today all my buttons seem pressed at once and I want to be really self pitying so I am being it for once......YUK I hate that and am so quick to call everyone else on it.....mostly in GHU and not here so now I guess I will get some of my own medicine!!!!!!!

And of course I will then resort to humour...I wish sometimes someone would tell me to switch the humour off until the pain was out but the humour is what I hide behind ......  Consider yourself told.

And a fear of seeking attention and being called attention seeking...which means it gets all so subtle....  Of course you want attention! Normal human stuff. Accept it.

So today I am going to break through and say I am down and confused and I want sympathy! - well it is a lot more honest than writing as if I was ok.......I just feel like I messed my own life up big time,........YUKKY DAY - normal service will be resumed when I HAVE LEARNT IT IS OK TO BE THIS UN OK

BTW SAND IS RED IN SOME COUNTRIES.   

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

I am a reforming abuser! I am so depressed. The way I treated my wife has ruined both our lives as well as hurt the kids so much. She does not love me anymore. I love her with all my heart. I can't eat/sleep nor work very well. I am working so hard on changing my learned patterns and I think I am doing very well. She still won't get close to me or kiss me again and gets mad at me for my every move it seems good or bad. I can't leave because of financial reasons and also don't want to because I love my kids and they need a healthy Dad. I am so depressed. I am in support group but it still doesn't seem to help anymore. When we have good days, she says that things are going my way and not hers so she is unhappy. This has been going on for months now and I don't know where to turn to. What can I do to prove to her that I do love her and that our family is so important to me? How do I leave home problems at home and go to work and work? Will she ever find her love for me again? How do I learn to let go of her like she wants? Please give me advice.

Depressed

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Dear Jay,

Sending you all the sympathy you want and loads more, to safe for another needy day. I am sorry you feel so down and I do hope you will be able to get into that retreat house soon. Even if it will be next week or after it will be something to be looking forward to. In the meantime keep going the best way you can. I'll send you some Reiki energy this night around 11 (10 your time) hope you will pick it up. It is ok to feel un-ok. Ok to want and need attention, ok to hurt and not to know how to handle it. in admitting you cannot handle a certain problem, you make room for God/Universal power to work through you. I think it is one of the AA principles to: admit you are powerless. It is a hard one for a lot of people I guess, at least it is for me. We seem to need to feel in control so much, yet if we finally let go, oftentimes great things happen. By not focusing on what we want as solution to our problems, or never thought of solutions will present themselves miraculously. So, you see, feeling helpless and confused, might very well help an unexpected door to get opened.

And I am not going to accuse you of self-pitying, how much you might want it :-) Wanting attention is NOT self-pitying, needing love does not come from the lack of strength!!!! Dear Jay, please do whatever it takes to take care of yourself. Go to places where the sand is red, go to the sea and listen to it's stories, let the sun warm you and the rain cool you. And as you said: there is a place and purpose to everything. It will get clear, give life a chance.

Love and hugs and more love and hugs and purrs and kisses and pats on the back, gigglegurgles, laughter and joy. AJ

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Hi guys...

I want to let everyone know that I am the 'other friend' that referred both Mousie and Kris to this site. They are both members of my site (which is not nearly comparable to this one in terms of information). They are both dear people to me and have suffered through plenty. I know that Mousie is unconventional and controversial, however she has many of her own demons to deal with. I'm sorry if she offended anyone, she is a joker and funny by nature and I adore her. I suppose I wished that she could post here and get more 'educated' help than I can give. I'll continue to stand by them as friends and as individuals looking for additional assistance... Just like I've always stood by Mel (and for that matter, Wayne). I (and of course this is my person opinion) refuse to abandon anyone if they don't 'fit' in with my group. I've been the outsider so many times that I can now accept almost any approach, as long as I am able to understand the underlying reasons for their behavior. I'm glad that you have created your space for people. There is a need. http://communities.msn.com/stormshelter/messageboard1.msnw

In addition, I realize that this is NOT my site, this is Dr. Irene 's and she has every right in the world to ban or delete any posts she likes... that's one of the rights of your own site. I perfectly appreciate that right.

I'll continue to post here (as long as Dr. Irene wants me to) and support Mousie and Kris because they are my friends.... Jeannie, you're welcome to post all you want. And so are your friends. I know Mousie didn't understand my criteria.

(Note: Sometimes, the person posting in the most obnoxious manner is the one who needs the most help and support.) Without a doubt. 

Dear Jeannie, The CatBox has helped many. In the interest of maintaining this forum as is, I've opted to keep blame and  sarcasm out, even the joking kind if it's at someone's expense. Yes, this will cut into some people's "free speech" or ability to "be," but different strokes for different folks. 

I appreciate your understanding. I also want to apologize for anything I may have said that may have offended you or your site throughout this fiasco. My very best wishes, Dr. Irene

Stormy/Jeannie

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Dear Jeannie/Stormy

In all the time you have been posting I have never seen the url for your site. Please could I have a look as I am now intrigued!

However, Jeannie I think you are getting it wrong in just the way we codependents do. I seem to remember that you supported wpb to the end and also tried to get Mel back on Bravenet...

I know just what you mean about the neediest person- but you are missing the fact that by enabling them to continue just in the way which caused them the problem you actually prolong the suffering....

I don't think Dr Irene ( oh dear I really hope I am not going to put my foot in it) wants to ban any of these people if they try to be appropriate. Thank you... There isn't a lot of point in having a lot about boundaries on a site if you then let people cross the ones you set for the site!

The need may be there, but what you are not seeing is that these people (Mel is much better now she has accepted the boundaries) will not be helped without learning that they ask in an inappropriate way....If they do it today here they will do it tomorrow elsewhere and remain stuck.......  Exactly.

If it was me and I was, say, Mousie, I would write about what I needed the site for - I might because I have a sense of humour put some in but I wouldn't start by criticising the cat! (So to speak - imagine if you are visiting someone's house and they have one of those really awful Chichewa dogs and they invite you in and it is clear they like the dog. You may think what an AWFUL animal and as the friendship grows you might be a bit more forthcoming in that you personally dislike dogs at a later date but you wouldn't walk through the door and before they even offered a drink say "I hate your dog." If you did you would not be welcome would you? (Giggle I do not have one of these dogs). It is a guns blazing approach that puts people off and it says  I don't care about your boundaries as a human being."

I do not mean out and out rejection. If the person re enters appropriately then I am sure they would be welcome...Jay  Jay, you put it better than I could have.

AJ Hugs and I was meaning to email you. I had the counseling just now and I have been instructed to like myself! Or else Trubble will start hissing and scratching - and we both know you hate cats! Today was an awful day -really was and those stupid pills played a part in being in hospital although it ended up about my thyroid. You sound great and so does Theressa..

Becky this might be helpful for you too- Joyce Meyer has a website which one of the counselors thought would be good to look at. Also most of the prayer went on me feeling good about me--how about practicing liking yourself and saying that whatever even your horrible husband says about you that YOU like YOU and GOD likes you and that is all that matters.....I am supposed to look at myself in the mirror and say this.. gigggle I may be certified insane for talking to myself by the end of the week......  But only if you don't give us that site's url!

You see it came out that I really had stopped liking me and was totally out of control of the thoughts that said how dreadful I was - I used to like me so I guess I know it is a great feeling to work back - no forwards to,. :) :) practicing feeling happier after the junk! jay It's a back and forth process. Two steps forward... 

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Dear Lisa

I really hope that Dr Irene won't mind the religious bit in this post but I just thought about our dear friend - my best friend's husband who died--you see Lisa he became a Christian and then backslid so many times and then finally.......one day he was able to say this is the way for me and no looking back.. my best friend has been where you are so many times-I still think she was relieved when he dies as the emotional stuff he put her through was big! but before he died it all came right and he was back on track, My friend had to say "me or the drink" and he would sound ok but not be - actually towards the end he was totally 'off the wall," BUT I have watched my best friend open up like a flower and I am saying this happened when one of the other dearest friends I ever had died. God may be taking your husband through some more stuff--J had to go through court arrests, a daughter addicted to heroin -at one point all four adolescents were acting out at once, being disciplined by the church , drug addiction for himself and he had been suicidal, bereaved of most of his family, he was diabetic, he was depressed, he had back problems, and still just in the few years before he died he showed his true God given nature - and every other family member is ok now,,,,The think is Lisa your pastor will have seen all this before in others and he will if he is a pastor know that there is a battle to be fought....YOU will be ok.

To the non religious - please just accept the spirit of the post..  Spirituality is a wonderful thing. On a generic board, I try not to alienate people with different belief systems. For example, Jewish people who don't regard Jesus as the Lord are likely to cringe. My belief: God/Universe/Nature  doesn't care how you get there, just that you do!  

jay

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Hello again.

I told y'all last time that it was put up or shut up time with my spouse.... that he had to stop what he was doing. Did it work? *falls to the floor in something between an uproarious laugh and a terrified sob* Yeah right. This past weekend was a nightmare. First off on Friday he told our 11 yr old son to f*** off. I was livid and the end result was a three hour discussion, lead by me, on what constitutes adult behavior. He promised, he swore up and down that he would do better.... boy was that ever short-lived. By Sunday morning is was back to the same old same old with him attacking the way I dress. (I am not a fan of dresses and he knows that so he tries to coerce me into them as often as possible. I don't see what the big deal is. If the occasion calls for a dress I wear one... a trip to Wal-Mart is not an occasion.) Then he began on the kids again, more specifically our son. I intervene to divert my husband's attention then spent most of the rest of the day disengaging. I was exhausted by the time I got to bed. On Monday, it was much the same until he left that evening on his truck. Then, right after we pull away from dropping him off, our daughter started prodding her brother to tell me something. When he was reluctant she told me herself that their "ADORING" father had told our son to quit tattle-taling or he would get him and make him regret it. I was flabbergasted. This was totally and irrevocably over the line. I called CPS the next morning. What choice did I have? He threatened an 11 year old boy with bodily harm. Probably just smoke but that doesn't matter, the child is scared and so is his sister. I don't know what is going to happen next. CPS interviews the kids tomorrow. No matter what, though, I don't want that man back in my house. As much as I love him, he stepped too far over that boundary line and I cannot forgive him for this one. I feel like my back is against the wall here. Damn him!

Jeanne

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

Theressa, Thanks for the encouragement and insight.

Jay, I will check out Joyce Meyer's site--thanks! url???

Becky

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Wednesday, June 27, 2001

The Pathless Path by Gertrude Stein -

There is not answer. There never has been an answer. There never will be an answer. That's the answer.

I wanted to share the above. It helped me today to stop asking so many questions :)

I am meditating, affirming, and going with the flow.....Just goooooing with what ever comes my way. Relaxing, and just taking is slow.

Thank you so much L and Jay for your supportive post. I know this is healthy. I have to remember I am feeling - and for the first time in years. It feels catastrophic at the moment but as I sit and listen to what my "voice" and intuition is telling me, I will be okay. Yes... If I am not sure I just go pray and sit quietly waiting....then if nothing comes it's not time. Meanwhile, with this pain is growth. Extraordinary growth. Yes!

I just keep moving forward and finding ways to take care of Lisa. My parent in me is encouraging my inner child that it will be okay, and that I need to learn this all to become fully human and develop my sense of Self. It will become easier as I learn how to process those feelings into something productive to make the necessary changes....It's real hard dealing with that "unknown" at first.

I went to my BWA Support Group. We went over the different types of abuse.. emotional, verbal, sexual, money, and physical. I learned all kinds of different techniques to handle each different types abuse. They are very aware how the abuse moves from one thing to another in attempt to keep you off balance. It was very good to have someone to clarify my "personal rights" and challenge my beliefs. They listened to how I talked about myself, and tested my "thoughts". Then it provided me with a new way of "thinking" and "feeling" about a situation. I learned a lot. When I thought I had a big sign on my forehead that says "Doormat". I did. All I had to do was open my mouth sometimes....I never realized how many times I said "sorry" when I had nothing to be sorry about.

Something very important was learning about how the court system works in our county. I am meeting with a counselor and getting with a family lawyer to go over how to communicate to the judge about what types of abuse are going on at home, and how I can document the incidents. I am curious to see how our county responds to "verbal abuse" and "covert" passive aggressive behavior. They also prepared me for the fact with all the letters, evidence, etc. that the judge may not order my husband into counseling or what I want. They prepared me to accept that this does not mean I am wrong or he is right. So, I am typing up some examples in writing and obtaining witness statements that can verify that my husband was controlling and verbally abusive. Since he is going to be so good at appearing to "the good guy". Again, they focused on ME and told me not to worry about how he looks, or what he says. They even offered an idea to picture these two counselor women behind me cheering me on no matter what happens. They know I deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. I don't need a judge to tell me this.

I worked a little more on my impulse control and reactions. When he does say something to me it still hurts no matter how much I think in my head "he is just saying that to provoke me". It still hurts. I don't respond and say "STOP" then the tears come out. I don't openly sob but the tears stream down my cheeks. As I stand there seeing if he is going to respect me. I was counseled today that feelings are okay, and very human. His laughing at my feelings are about him. It still hurts. You haven't fully understood that it's about him, that's why it hurts so...

Oh, another good tip. This may have already been offered here by Dr. Irene, but my counselor said when he comes attempting to provoke me or using covert passive aggressive statements to think to myself "Well...now...Isn't that interesting. That's exactly what I thought he would do at this moment." Don't say it but think it..."Now, isn't that interesting." To redirect the attention off of what he is (obviously, sometimes) doing into my thoughts of how this is making me feel at the moment, and "do nothing" just act bored, say "Oh", thinking that this is just being done to upset or provoke me. (same "do nothing" when your not sure, like Dr. Irene's advises). Then, take that energy and call the hotlines, journal, and talk to a sponsor. VENT the Anger into something else productive since he does not hear it. I even practiced it out loud and did some roll playing. It was good to practice it with someone that could imitate my husband out loud. This really helped me build some more confidence. Not my technique, but I like it!

They really helped me understand that I did not need to "explain or convince anyone" how I feel. I have the right to express my feelings. Just to tell the judge how I feel when he says something to me or how I feel when he hugs me then won't let go, or how I feel when I am talking and he yells "Just shut up". I feel devalued and worthless.....I know I am not. If I feel this way then imagine how my children must feel when he does these same things to them.

So, it was a better day today. Just taking action really helps me get out of my slump.

Oh, and my husband did surprise me by taking the next 2 days off of work. He "popped in" to take my son to a baseball game. He then proceeded to tell the kids that he was picking them up to take them to the movies. My son spoke up and said, "Dad aren't you going to ask Mom first? She had plans with us to go to the movies." My husband was caught just acting like I did not exist at all. He even blushed at how blatant this appeared. Not to mention that my son is bright. But, I could have used this as an opportunity to say "Oh, SEE! That proves my point." (that he treats me like I don't matter or exist) But, I just let it go. Good for you! That's integrity! My husband had to stumble through his excuses one by one. My son just said, "Well, I think you better ask mom next time before you just say you are coming to pick us up and take us somewhere we may have plans." Okay, 9 year old parenting my husband. Hmmm....I saved myself all kinds of energy allowing my 9 year old to work this out with his dad. Oh, and the end result. 9 year old feels since he and I made plans first then it was only fair that he sticks with our original plans. Besides Dad took him to ballgame today. He wants to spend time with both of us this week...his dad gets him all next weekend. He tells his father, "It's okay with me if you pick us up after the movies, but you better ask mom if it's okay first." Sometimes it's really a good thing to keep your comments and thoughts to yourself. :)  Especially since opening your mouth on this one would have been acting out - acting like him...

Thank you very much! I just know it will get easier :)

LisaMM

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

I want to get to the point where I don't care if he changes or not. Is that a desirable goal? If I am that detached, doesn't that mean there's no point in being married? Would that kill any love i have left for him? Just wondering...........  Then you could leave him, unless you were like Hilary and had other reasons to stay...

Becky

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Adding to my last post-- I just sat here and allowed myself to experience what it feels like to not care. I had an enormous sense of relief! Hm-m-m-m-m! Becky

P.S. Tim B.: God sent me a pick me up tonight in the form of a movie on AMC. :-)

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Dear Theressa, Asha here

I am learning that losing loved ones and being isolated and alone, is a fear that many other people also have. I probably need to spend my energy letting my family know I care and building other relationships, instead of fretting about the future. “Family” probably doesn’t have to take the shape of mom, dad, mate or children; those are just the models we are accustomed to. What Susan Jeffers talks about in her “Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway” tape is that the biggest fear of all is that we can’t “handle it”. I need to assure myself that I can and will handle whatever comes my way. I have so far and I’m still in one piece...

I was listening to a tape by Steven Covey called “First Things First” over the last few days. He talks about how what is most important to us is often not ‘urgent’ and therefore gets little or no care. I can let this happen with my parents when the business of my life and the little day to day urgencies get in the way. That’s because I think they will always be there... In any case, I can count my blessings for the many things in life I *do* have and make the most of them, and not obsess over what might be and what isn’t.  Both excellent tapes...

Dear Depressed

I would suggest you check out the “Buddha link” at http://www.drirene.com/buddah.htm

There is a lot to start with in the 4 pages there.

Hello to all the new people – I don’t have the energy to respond to all of you, but I encourage you to hang around. There is a lot of knowledge in the ‘catbox’, and *plenty* of previous pages to read that may answer some of your questions. :)

Anyways, I’m wiped – just mostly wanted to say thanks Theressa for your support. I guess the sooner I accept that life is really just one long series of changes, the more I can handle ‘going with the flow’.

Take care all & goodnight (or good morning depending where you are located).

Asha

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Becky,

I am asking that same question. How do I get to a point that I do not wonder if he is going to change or not? I can see by his recent behavior that my husband is choosing not to change, in fact, even worse, his agenda appears to be to turn things around to make it appear that I am crazy or abusive. I get so upset and hurt. I just can't seem to figure out why I can't detach completely. I am asking myself "Why do you care about someone that is hurting you, and why do you want to stay with someone like this?" Why do I still love him after all he has been doing to me, and he comes right out and says, "Our marriage is over." That pretty much tells me he is not changing - he is moving on. Then there's "Your Nuts"....Again, that's him, right? You hate what is, so you try to convince yourself otherwise... I am crying and reacting so he is calling me nuts. Sometimes I actually feel crazy from the craziness and my lack of control over the situation. I know I am okay because when he is not around I feel fine. It's so hard to explain but he just stomps on my foot over and over. It's like I am standing there saying "It doesn't hurt" when it does. I then go back and think okay, be strong and "let go" but then he comes stomping harder. An example I use with my clients: If you're in a room that's on fire, you don't sit there waiting for your heat tolerance to increase. You get out cuz it burns! I am not attempting to control others anymore, and I am accepting responsibility for my behavior. I just can't seem to keep it together around him. If I stand up to him and say anything that he disagrees with I am "a very angry person" but that's him too, right? . I keep thinking "Yes, I am angry and hurt, and sad, but you don't care?" I would even be willing to walk around with a shirt that says, "You know I am feeling very very very Angry and Hurt" will you get off my foot now. I would be willing to share this with him that yes I am angry but he doesn't care to listen to me, he is just stomping. I want to share with him that I am learning how to deal with my anger. Does this mean I am stuck in Anger and that's why I can't move on? When you pay attention to your anger and look at it, as you are, you are not stuck.

I am starting to feel very very angry at this lately. Am I choosing to be angry in front of him so that he can't see the pain? My guess is you are very angry, as you should be, and you're tired of hiding it from him.

Around and round I go in circles again. I don't want to wake up and have to go through this lesson again, and again.

Becky, I am here with you. This is just one of those things we have to go through and experience before we will know how it feels. I am at the point I am aware of his behavior, and I know I am not willing to tolerate it but it still hurts me. What now....

Hugs,

LisaMM

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Steve,

Glad to hear from you. I understand what you are saying. AND without being defensive I admit and I am sure Asha would that she nor I are at fault. AND yes at times we do feel angry and lash out.

I myself am learning to look at ALL interactions and see where I fit in. This has taken alot of help from RON my therapist and alot of insight. AND guess what at times I am still reactive. And guess what else? You'll never be purrfect (like "The Cat").

Steve Asha will make mistakes, on the whole I believe, like me she is trying her best. AND I know you are.

One thing that ALL of us have to accept is until the lessons are completely learnt we will continue to attract these lessons. Steve: one of your major lessons: it is OK for Asha to be upset/angry/whatever with you. It is her anger and she's entitled. You don't have to react to her anger.

THIS is good news for you Steve and for Asha. Since you DO WANT TO heal the whole of you. DO you have faith in the universe to stop sending the lessons and experiences to you when THE universe is sure you have completely healed the button/issue concerned??

Here is a meditation that is a great help in understanding this, Steve I now realise that we have issues inside of us that need fixing, so the energy these issues contain attracts an experience to heal/fix this issue. SO IF you are still getting the experiences it is obvious the button is not yet fixed.

WHY does it concern you so much whether or not ASHA gets it? Or is getting it? Isn't your good behaviour benefiting you? Are you using your energy supplies productively? Or are you using them to focus on what Asha isn't doing, or getting? Could there be a little irrational thought kicking away back there, something like, "If she were more understanding, calm, nice, etc., my life would be smoother, happier, whatever..."

If you weren't focusing on Asha's issues what would you be using your energy for? (it should be to benefit and do for yourself)

I to get annoyed that my partner isn't getting it, though I know deep down if I had processed my issues in that area it wouldn't concern me so much. SO I know that when I feel angry that my partner is interfering and criticising me, THAT I to am still doing this in my life. THE MESSAGE I AM GETTING FROM THE UNIVERSE IS I STILL NEED TO FIX THIS IN ME!!!

I have weak boundaries in some areas of my life, I use others in some ways by stealing their time manipulatively. For instance I take advantage of my mom and then wonder why she reacts angrily. I will spend extra time at work and not ask her if she minds minding my daughter some extra time. I just assume she has no choice. WELL she deserves to be given the opportunity to make her own choices about how she spends her time. Otherwise I am dumping my responsibilities on to her. I was angry when she pulled me up firstly because she did it in a judgmental way, BUT THE lesson was still their (stop using me Theressa)

So here is the meditation:

YOUR MATE is your Mirror.

Many of us think we are lucky or blessed when we find just the right person to love. By now we know that NOTHING IN LIFE IS AN ACCIDENT, including our selection of a mate. The people who come into our lives are a reflection of who we are. They reveal to us those things we cannot or refuse to see about ourselves. The very thing we don't like about our mate IS THE THING WE NEED TO CHANGE. The thing we love about the other person is a hidden, undeveloped or unrecognised asset that we have. We can only draw to us those people who are on our ray, our level of energy and development. They reflect back to us the very things we do. Most of us reject this idea. But then most of us reject criticism, too. We find it difficult to accept those things about us that others see. We do, however, feel completely justified when we criticise our mates. Here's a question for you: How would you know what to call what you see in your mate unless you had seen it somewhere else?

I am looking in the mirror of self and making adjustments in me.

(The eyes are the mirrors to your soul, the real you, what you see externally is a reflection of what is inside of you, how you feel right now, what stage you are at)

Do you accept and allow the teachers in your life to show you where you still need to do work on your issues? Do you take the lessons in your life and embrace them to be the best you can be?

Take care Steve, I know your a smart guy and you'll recognise how true what I am saying is. I have made many changes and still am by following this advice.

Will you be courageous enough to follow this advice?

One last thought, Steve as it says nothing is here by accident so do you have the faith to believe that when you truly don't need to learn anything else from someone the universe will make them unattractive to you.

I believe Asha has lots to still teach you about you, and you to teach her about her. The goal is for her to look at what you do that creates a reaction in her, and for you to look at what she does that creates a reaction in you. THEN YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS INSIDE, you know what to fix when you see it in your outer world.

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Hi Jay,

Do you get it? Finally you are resting, this had to happen so you'd be honest and allow yourself to be honest about not feeling okay. GREAT.

Can you now face your fears and be vulnerable and ask for support? Can you attention seek in a healthy way, by asking for help, and trusting that if you really need this help GOD will provide it one way or another.

It sounds to me like someone made you ashamed of asking for their attention when you were a child? Can you check this out, did this happen in your childhood?

Were you told "children should be seen and not heard?" and now you have guilt surrounding asking for attention?

Jay please believe me when I say this: When you ask for support/help and you really need it, you are being vulnerable and healthy, NOT NEEDY.

It is only when you ask for help and you know you can manage without help, but you just want others to pat you on the back and they are usually angry at you for asking for there help.

YOU see when GOD thinks you truly need the help and you humble yourself enough to be vulnerable and seek the support/help GOD makes sure you get it one way or another.

REMEMBER GOD SENDS ALL THAT WE NEED AT THE RIGHT TIME WE NEED IT, NOT BEFORE.

Take care Theressa

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Depressed,

You learn to detach and at the same respect her choices not to want you at this time. You work on your own self you don't need to tell her this, she will see this better in your new ways of acting.

Read above the post to Steve about the mirror.

Take care Theressa

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Hey Steve there,

how are you doing? Glad you posted again and I hope you will keep at it.

In your post you write: If we ever say anything, with love and sincerity, that indicates our partners may have some things to work on, they get severely offended and want to say, "it's only because you made me, that I behave like this". In other words, we are always carrying the full burden of the health of the relationship.

You know, I think that maybe your partner  feels just the same way. They too feel like they have to carry the whole burden. In a way I think you are right though, you are carrying the whole burden of your part of the relationship and what is sooo difficult is to see which is actually your part and which is not. Do you remember, a long time ago you wrote that you thought we all had to give 100% in our relationships and expect the other to do the same. I feel that still holds true. We have to give our best regardless of what the other person does. We get mad because we actually want the other person to do things for us we can and need to to for ourselves, to help us solve our problems by solving theirs first. It is like negotiating a peace treaty: if you stop shooting, the maybe I will stop too. It seems to me apparent it does not work that way. So, if you feel shooting is a bad thing to do, you stop it and see what happens. Not meaning of course you should get yourself killed in the process. But start thinking about what YOU can do to make the relationship more healthy and stop needing your partner to do it first. Yes, you have full responsibility for that and you cannot put even 10% of that responsibility on your partners shoulders. It is yours 100% as it should be. Your partner has her/his own 100%. I think it cannot be shared, nor should it.

Hope I am making sense here. It is all quite new to me too, so bear with me if I have not been able to get it across rightly.

Take care, and to quote Eric Cpaton Clapton? (I think :-)): take a good look at yourselves!

Love, AJ

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Dear, dear Becky,

It is a desirable goal to accept someone is as they is.... If you are detached you aren't further participating in destroying your marriage, what you are saying is for the moment I need some space. You are controlling your own life and taking care of you. IN FACT if you behave respectfully as I described yesterday, not acting out, then you will build some respect back into the equation.

It will not kill the love, LOVE is seeing the good things in others and accepting where they are at. You are giving yourself space and him space to grow.

You are actually building healthier love. And getting rid of the toxic love, (where in the past you never cared about you)

Take care Theressa

I want to get to the point where I don't care if he changes or not. Is that a desirable goal? If I am that detached, doesn't that mean there's no point in being married? Would that kill any love i have left for him? Just wondering...........

Becky

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Steve the mirror post and meditation was from me. Theressa forgot to sign.

Steve it is obvious you are aware things aren't right, but i know your a smart guy and will look at what this has to do with you.

Take care Theressa

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

This morning I just ran into a woman my abuser was "friends" with. So much anger welled up inside of me as I remembered the abuse, humiliations and pain this 1 person (the abuser) caused in my life.

In hind sight I can see how damaging it was to be in an abusive relationship. When I was in denial and didn't get angry about the abuse, I stayed. I became numb to the cruelty. The evil things he said and did to me formed my reality and image of myself - then I was really stuck because I believed the awful things he said. My abuser was also a pro and knew how to slowly increase the abuse as my defenses were down and how to continue to hook me.

When I first got out I was really angry at myself for staying, but the hind sight has given me a different perspective. I fully believe there are no excuses for abusers, and my codependency is a problem, but has nothing to do with his choice to be an abuser. He is still an abuser, and thankfully I am on my way in my recovery! I am learning the skills I need to have a healthy relationship with myself and a loving partner. Excellent Suzanne. Thank you!

Thank you Dr. Irene for a place to share this journey, Suzanne

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Test, please ignore

|A|À|Á|Â|Ã|Ä|Å|Æ|C|Ç|E|È|É|Ê|Ë|I|Ì|Í|Î|Ï|N|Ñ|O|Ò|Ó|Ô|Õ|Ö|Ø|Œ|S|Š|U|Ù|Ú|Û|Ü|Y|Ý|Ÿ|Þ|Ð| |a|à|á|â|ã|ä|å|æ|c|ç|e|è|é|ê|ë|i|ì|í|î|ï|n|ñ|o|ò|ó|ô|õ|ö|ø|œ|s|š|u|ù|ú|û|ü|y|ý|ÿ|þ|ð| |¿|¡|°|$|¢|£|¥|*|†|‡|§|

Repeat, this is only a test

[If this were a real emergency, you would be facing a baffling jumble of coded instructions without the faintest idea how to respond to them]

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Steve here.

Theressa, thanks for your insights. I will take them to heart. Yes, there are many more lessons to learn. The mirror concept is a good one.

And A.J., thanks for reminding me...I am losing my memory I think. There's so much going into my mind lately that some stuff seems to be getting dumped to make room.

I don't think I'm focusing on Asha too much. I will explain.

I have 2 options. Redrawing my boundaries, which have fallen to the ground lately. Without even knowing, redraw the boundaries. Or, trying to get through to Asha.

The problem is this.

I find that some issues cannot be dealt with fully if only 1/2 of the equation is there. So much energy is consumed by me having to repeat myself. Asha has very "loud" preconceptions of me which tend to drown out my words. She *thinks* she knows what I think most of the time. Instead of asking me, or hearing me, she seems to think that is unnecessary because she already knows what I'm thinking. No problem. Let her think what she thinks Steve.

Quite often, she's wrong about what I think or feel. But if I tell her, she forgets, or it never gets past the preconceptions. Why are you making her preconceptions your problem?

I am just worn out from fighting this current.

I'm going to turn around, and start gliding downstream. To the sea. Where I can recharge under the never-ending benevolent sunset.

Then I'll try to remember those things that the universe was yelling at me...

Steve

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Dear Teressa,,,she who humbles herself.........Thanks. Yes I am finally looking after me. I wish I was like HKK - he had to come home from school and said he had a headache - sounded like migraine to me - He said' " I need pampering because I am sick." He doesn't really ask for much; but when he really needs care and attention he ensures he is looked after. - he seems to have informed the teacher he was going home! Just  an hour early but I am really proud I have one kid out of the two who seems emotionally healthy. He was grateful for some attention but once he had it he could just let it rest. so I got something right as a mum after all.... Much more than one thing Jay...

I also thought as I was walking out to get some lunch just to be out of the house for a few minutes "why not ring S" S is a long standing friend who has an abusive partner and sometimes gets psychotic - she really is ok when she is ok....when she is not she is off the wall - our children have been lifelong friends and so we went to lunch together. The nice thing is I did this for me as when she is OK S is good company ... I just hoped it was a good day but then to S it meant a whole lot more - she said she had felt she had got really isolated - so we went to this really special cafe and discovered an old friend of hers actually owns it - so I just took a back seat and listened while they caught up on the gossip and each other - It just felt good to be part of her healing......And it was fine as it turned out we had all lived in this town for so long that we kind of knew of the same people even if we didn't know them......

Then I went to see a marriage guidance counselor and more of the puzzle fitted together. Jake hasn't been letting me see the counselor as he couldn't / it isn't the policy of the organization - they put in a new counselor if the counselor is seeing one person independently! So he has just not been communicating like the rest of the world again. My friend described how he talked about me when I was in hospital. It is all very confusing as it appears he is so different when he talks about me to my friends and I don't know if that is my perception or him fooling them - I just can't think he is the type to fool people though........ I suspect Jay that he loves you and cares about you, but is depressed /self-involved part of the time and baffled how to handle you the rest of the time.

Ah well . What I said to the therapist was I wanted to know how I could make things better for me in MY life so what Jake wants or is doing is only relevant if it affects me adversely..

I got a letter from the hospital acknowledging that the family therapist had acted wrongly over one particular incident.....  What incident?

That was kind of helpful in itself. made me surer of my own judgment....  Good.

Now I have to work out how to wash! Our water system is completely messed up.......love to everyone - nice when Steve posts! Yes! jay

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Theressa,

Thank you for that wonderful post about our lessons and mirror. It has given me something to think about.

I am reflecting a lot of anger then. I am very hurt inside. I am putting a defensive wall up. I do not like selling out. I don't like seeing people out of control because inside I am not sure that I can trust myself to protect myself from them.

I guess what my husband does not like in me is the hurt and anger that is exposed? He can not seem to deal with my pain. I want to so that I can get over being in pain, angry, and hurt.  

Now, he keeps saying something to me. He says, "I want you to take responsibility for your life." When I am doing that but he won't acknowledge how and what I am doing to do this. Is this because he is aware that he is not accepting responsibility for his life and passing the buck to me? I mean I know as a codependent person. I was having difficulty not worrying about what other's were doing so that I did not have to look at me. There for I was not accepting responsibility for my life because I had an excuse. Now, I am trying.

Okay, back to reflect.....Thanks for the tip Theressa :)

Hugs,

LisaMM

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Hello; I found this site as I searched the web for information about alcoholism and codependency. Some of the postings look like I could have written them. I made my alcoholic boyfriend of five years move out this week. I had reached the end of my rope. This time, I called the police to remove him. His verbal abuse & threats had been directed at my two children this time. For the hundredth time, he had not come home from work. No phone call, no warning. What was worse, he was ,AGAIN, driving my vehicle. Putting my driving privileges at risk along with his. Not to mention endangering the lives of innocent people. For five years I have heard how badly he wants to quit drinking, how hard it is because his entire family are alcoholics, and giving up drinking basically meant not seeing them. I attended al-anon for some time several years ago. He attended A.A. from time to time. And he would go months without drinking. However, lately the episodes were increasing in intensity, with less time between each drinking binge. I know now that alcoholism is a disease. That left untreated it will only progress. When I first met him, I believed that it was a bad habit, or a character weakness. I believed him when he said that with the right motivation and support he would beat it. I know now that nothing I can do will be that motivation or support. That he will have to quit because he wants to and nothing that I do will bring that about. After going to al-anon, I did stop picking him up in the middle of the night. I shut my telephones off and went to bed when he was out. I told him I would never again pick up a drunk and bring them to my home. Furthermore, after one bad episode here at our home, I drew a line and made a rule that no one(not him, not friends, not his family) drank here. Both of those things brought a much greater measure of peace to the household. But it still didn't eliminate him going out and coming home drunk in the middle of the night. The kids did miss seeing most of his episodes first hand, but they always knew later what had happened, or at least suspected. Two and a half years ago, we had a beautiful little boy. I was devastated to learn that I was pregnant. My boyfriend was thrilled. For the most part, he has been sober for the last three years. I don't know what happened exactly, but last fall, he began to spiral slowly back out of control. He went from months, to weeks, to days between drinking bouts. Now I have not two but three children to protect. I also know from past experience that it will get much worse before it gets any better. It will be a matter of time before he loses his driving privileges, or his job, or both. It is "all my fault again" that he is drinking. I am very in need of emotional support as I go through these very first days of him being gone. I have close friends that I talk to, but I have no desire to burn them out about my feelings of loneliness and even guilt (there's a sign of real emotional problems) over his leaving. I am also hurt by the ungracious way that he has behaved towards his son, whom I know he loves to the best of his abilities. He would rather spend time now drinking with his family and friends than seeing his son. I have such mixed up emotions about him. I don't want to burden my two older children with my guilt or fears. They are happy that he is out, and thinking that I miss him would cause them to feel guilty. that's just not fair. Of course I am enjoying the peace and the knowledge that we are safe from him when he's drunk. And any reasonable adult would know that he had to leave. Why am I still blue? I know that he would never "bottom out" as long as he was here. I was here to take up the slack. Keep the bills paid, food on the table, the house immaculate. All he had to do was come home and sleep it off. He is making very good money. He has been at this job for a year and it's the best one he's had in the five years I've known him. When he moved in here, he had no vehicle, no license, no bank account, and a garbage bag of clothes. He didn't even have his s.s. card or a copy of his birth certificate. Of course, in my crusade to sober him up, all that has changed. There could be two outcomes to this. He may lose his job (in a week, he has already missed 2 days of work, the first in a year) and he may finally bottom out and get help on his own. The other scenario is that he may not quit drinking. He may just slide right on into the state of many of his friends and family, of desperate alcoholism. I would be dishonest to say that I don't hope that this separation will be what it takes to make him quit on his own. But I realise that it may not work that way. I am looking for a new al-anon group in my area that I will be able to attend regularly. I need to take care of my children and myself, first and foremost. I would welcome any feedback or shared experiences.

Sincerely, Karin

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Dear Helpless:

Have you re-read your post? What advice would you give someone who posted that?

I think you really know that your wife is an alcoholic. Even though she doesn't drink everyday, she has a problem with alcohol. However, this is NOT your problem to try to fix. You CANNOT fix her. But you can help yourSelf. Have you been to ALANON?

That said, I would like to tell you that you are NOT truly HELPLESS either. You might think that you are helpless, especially when you let her words define who you are but instead of being helpless, I believe you are a person with some very difficult choices to make.

Pretend you are just an observer in your house for a few days - a fly on the wall so to speak. Look at what goes on in the house, how she reacts, the things she says that bother you BUT don't get involved, don't argue - just detach from the situation. This will help you see things as they are. This will help you decide on the course of action to take to make the changes in your life that YOU KNOW are necessary. If you can't see the changes you need to make for your SELF, look through the eyes of the children.

I hope this helps you somewhat.

Kathy

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Thursday, June 28, 2001

Theressa,

BIBGOS!!! - The Mirror, I deny in myself that which I see in others. Hmmmm....how old was I when I first experienced that? Who did that? How did I feel? What did I do? How is that experience manifesting itself in my life TODAY?

GREAT STUFF!!!

GOD puts thorns on roses for a reason. What is the lesson in that for me?

LisaMM,

DETACHMENT is a process, not a destination where I have someday arrived. Practice, practice, practice...it happens when it happens, and in BIG GUY'S time, not mine. Do you have a sponsor? Are you taking the steps? Are you being of service? Are you calling and connecting with others in Alanon outside the rooms? Are you extending your hand to newcomers. What are you doing to get out of LISA?