Comments for Catbox 42

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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Saturday, June 23, 2001

Hi All, L here.

This site has been a Godsend between counseling sessions. The only thing is, while everyone agrees I'm doing the right thing, I am feeling a bit depressed after reading some of these posts. That's fine. You are accepting reality, where in the past you would pretend otherwise so you wouldn't have to feel yukky. You see, my estranged husband, is in total denial. He rationalizes and justifies everything he has done. Since his outburst on 5/29, he has been doing nothing to get help. As mentioned before, this has been going on 5 years now, and because I started making changes to give him "his stuff back" and take care of my own, it did nothing but get worse. Before filing this week, I asked him one more time about what he wanted, and he said the divorce. I told him I love him, his children love him, but he needs help because the drinking, irrational behavior, etc., keeps happening. Even when I maintained boundaries, such as leaving the room, he would follow me room to room, not respecting my right to disengage from the situation. He said, "Yeah right. If my kids love me, then they should prove it!". I was floored by that one! I said, they don't have to prove it. You are their father, and they love you, but need you to be well, to be a father they can look up to. They want to look up to you! Every time you came back and the trust started to rebuild, it was stomped on.

 You see, he believes respect is not earned. It's something that is "just there". I say, "No, there is respect for a parent in a parent/child relationship, but it's hard to respect the irrational behavior, name calling, etc. They've even told me they felt like they were "walking on eggshells". They love him, but hate the behavior, just as I do. He is pissed I'm continuing the restraining order. He says "I'm playing games". I told him, "no I'm looking out for my safety and the kids. If you don't do anything irrational, it's nothing more than a piece of paper." When he found out the case management date for the divorce is 2 days before our 20th anniversary, he said, "Oh great! 2 days before our anniversary". I told him it sucks no matter what day it is, and I don't pick the dates, the court system has a procedure for assigning the dates, and that is the date. He was the one leaving nasty voicemails at work that he "wanted it done, wants out, and my attorney shouldn't be taking so long getting him served".

 I know he's "upping the ante", as Dr. Irene says, but I don't feel I can take another 5 years of this, or possibly a lifetime. I love him, but have to let him go, even though it still hurts so much. I guess that's the "child" in me wondering if someone loves you, why can't they see what they are doing to hurt you, or themselves?  Well, they should, but they have chosen not to. Maybe they don't love you or themSelf enough... Just another place where you have to open your eyes and accept reality.  I am still struggling with this. Just as I start to feel stronger, I have a crying spell, questioning myself if I'm doing the right thing. Yes. He's counting on you folding. Don't you dare! For your kids if you can't do it for yourself. A lot of people here seem to have spouses who are trying, or even half-trying to work on their issues. The first being admitting there is a problem. Is there anyone who has gone through this time and time again, and finally realized enough is enough? I could use a little encouragement right now.

Thanks, L

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Saturday, June 23, 2001

Hello Everyone Kala Here

This is the first time posting to the catbox for me. Have been coming to the site for a few months now and have posted a little on the message boards. I grew up in an abusive home without any emotional support and never really felt *safe* or supported. This week I saw a counselor at our local DV center and attended my first group session. I am in need of a lot of support right now so I am sure I made the right decision. The stress of my situation is starting to make me ill and I am so tired most of the time. They told me I should try to conserve my energy, excellent advice. I have been taking some positive steps to reconnect with friends, going to a movie and dinner. It is so nice to go out and ENJOY some peace for a change. Everything I do with my partner is struggle. I am finally starting to come out of denial, though some days I wish I could go back, I am so tired. Not to worry, I know that is not in my best interest. Like someone else said When I went to DV center I felt like I was breaking some family rule. Yes. Secrecy and your guilt is what your abuser(s) rely on. Your feelings are normal. Keep going and deal with the feelings; they will pass. However I did feel very reassured and received validation. It was very liberating to *tell* others face to face what has been happening to me - secret no more. Theressa your posts have helped me a lot, clarified some issues for me. I am noticing the abuse more now, not always responding but aware.

I realize I have been in survival mode for so long I stopped LIVING. I realize I have been trying to fix my partner, rescue my partner and then get angry when all doesn't work out. I don't always see my codependent behaviors. I am reading and learning everyday, little steps.

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Saturday, June 23, 2001

Jay,

I wanted to tell you that I hope you will be feeling better soon. It's so important to just allow yourself time to process all this new information. Feel your feelings. Don't medicate the pain. Stay with that pain. It's coming from deep inside of you. I allowed the pain to just come through me or out of me. I cried soooo hard. I can't tell you how much better I FEEL. I am becoming calmer day by day.

You are so correct about how when information is presented to you before you are ready to process it then it just does not get into your head. You are not capable of coping with it yet. So you will allow it to sink in when you are able to process it and cope. That is perfectly okay.

I can see how I have been just tossing all this information at my husband who is so emotionally unavailable and disconnected from his self that it's not sticking. I don't have the magic glue to make it stick. He is not open to receive it yet. I can't force him to see it until he is ready. I am just frustrating myself, and should be doing more proactive things to take care of myself. If I back off then he will come around on his own. He is loving me the best he is capable of. If I learn to love myself. I won't need him to do if for me. I need to accept that he is not here to make me happy. He is not even available to make himself happy. He is full of self-hatred. When he lets that go, and makes peace with his anger, hurt, pain, from his childhood then he will feel this same freedom I am feeling now. I just happened to be to far ahead of him. I am willing to accept who he is now but at the same time because his behaviors are so destructive to my emotional well-being I must take the necessary steps to protect myself. I am allowed to do this. I never realized it. I was feeling too powerless and worthless. This caused me to feel frozen in fear. Now, I have turned around and hugged the monster "my fear". It's okay now. I am feeling okay now. I know in my heart he will be okay someday if he takes care of himself. Meanwhile, I have to take care of myself.

I hope you don't mind me offering you some advice and comfort. I am learning all of this same stuff too. I was just taking some information that I learned from Al-anon and my BWA Support Groups. I started realizing that I am going to be okay. I had the courage to ask for help. I have the strength to endure a lot more pain than I ever thought I could. All these lessons are right in front of me. I just did not see it. Here's what I have learned so far this week: It's okay to ask for help but at a certain point I have to help myself. I am the only person that can help ME. I can't expect my husband to take care of ME. He can only take care of himSelf at this time. I am capable of taking care of myself. I just need to be pointed in the right direction sometimes. I did not have a set of foot prints to follow. My mom is still sitting on her couch at home waiting for the world to come to her. She is still blaming everyone for her misery. She has everything she needs to make herself happy. She chooses not to use the gifts that god provided her. All this time I thought I was responsible for her happiness. I am not I am responsible for my happiness. So, what I learned today is the same thing I will pass onto you...Some food for thought.....when your ready.... Don't look to Jake to take care of you. I know you need that so much. You may not have gotten it as a child. Take the grown up in your body right now and lead the child who is not feeling well to a safe spot in your mind. If you need to lay in bed for the weekend. That's okay. That's what you need to do. You don't have to justify it to anyone. Just learn to comfort yourself. Then you will see the little things that Jake has been doing was his way of "loving" you the best way he can. It may not "feel" like he loves you but he does just not how you "need" to be loved. Could it be your needing more than what he can offer?

Now, I don't want to sound like I know everything. I am still sorting through my "stuff". I have been reflecting on all the information provided. My therapist says I was only capable of understanding what I was ready to understand. Heck, it took me 30 years to develop all these unhealthy destructive behaviors. It's going to take me a while to relearn healthy ways of thinking. It's a process I have to go through and experience fully before I can truly comprehend the meaning. I just hate having to do this at my age. Sometimes, I think because I am 33 that I am suppose to be able to just know it. I missed all of this growing up. I am really a child in a grown up's body. That's okay. I have a pretty good loving "parent" inside of me to guide me. She is doing the best that she can. I am learning to love her even though she is not perfect. ;)  You're on track.

OH, Jay, I asked my doctor the other day if I should just increase my anti-depressants or just learn how to cope with what may be normal grief. He said, "There is nothing wrong with taking some medicine to take the edge off until you learn healthy ways of coping. We all need some help with medication sometimes. It's okay. You are the only person that can know that. I can't tell you how to feel inside." I had never heard that before. I said, "Well, You know I'll take it. I need it right now." He said, "Good! Let me know how it's working. I can increase it or lower it at any time."

Bless you Jay. I can't say I know exactly how you are feeling. I can only offer you some comfort of knowing you are not alone.

 LisaMM

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Saturday, June 23, 2001

Dear Dr Mousie,

Having some totally nutty posts is great but do you also have a need you want to post. You haven't actually mentioned if you are or have been in an abusive relationship - It is good to have a laugh but do remember we are , a lot of us hurting here...giggle ..the newspaper is for patients and professionals alike...

You might enjoy something someone gave me the other day - and so might Dr Irene. It is too long to post here but I was howling with laughter.... It is about this group of people with a strange condition .. went on and on about 'grandiosity', delusions about grandeur and being in a position equal to God and engaging in strange and unreasonable demands like asking another person to count from 100 backwards and stuff like needing to know suddenly who was in charge of the country. A tendency to talk only to certain people over the heads of others and to use a desk for self defense and sit behind it and take insane notes in illegible handwriting and utter incomprehensible nonsense to whoever was in the room with them and to appear at times very paranoid and ask for others to be kept in a safe environment ..........challenges to this client group are met with hostility as they assume they are always right.........

Well, actually as I haven't got the article in front of me, I made a bit of it up........(Dr Irene is not like this at all and does not suffer from this condition. Oh, never! Giggle.).

Lisa, thanks....I will have to read your post in the morning properly after some sleep --I did take the stupid pills and they are rather taking effect ...I hope this post isn't as nonsensical as I feel.. jay

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Saturday, June 23, 2001

Dear Cats.

I just got back from picking up my stuff from my ex's house. It was a lot sadder than I thought it would be. The stuff downstairs was easy because it was all together and in boxes more or less. But when I went to the bedroom, my stuff was all enmeshed with his stuff (just like us), and I remembered how we had planned on my moving back there, getting married blah blah blah. I got really sad and kind of lost it and had to stop getting my stuff for awhile. We got lunch and went to a movie, and talked a lot about a lot of things. I reminded myself that he was in the Dr. Jekyll stage and that it would only be a matter of time before something awful or crazymaking would happen, but it was really really sad. We have such a high level of compatibility when he is not screaming at me. That sounds kind of funny, like a Mel Brooks joke or something. But it's really sad. I'm sad. I guess I will wallow in being sad for awhile here, pardon me.

I also found it extremely confusing, and I told him so. I didn't think I still had any feelings for him, and I found out that I did. We talked about the good times and I asked him didn't he love me enough to work on the few behaviours that I couldn't live with? I told him that I didn't break up with him lightly, that I couldn't drop everything and go live with someone who yelled at me all the time, and he said he understood. At one point he said that I had a right to my feelings but that he "disagreed" with them, and I told him that there wasn't any "disagreeing" with someone's feelings, but that in a couple when someone feels strongly about something, the partner tries to negotiate or come to some mutual solution, rather than just stopping short, saying he doesn't feel the same way, too bad for you. At the end, I asked him again if he didn't love me enough to change these behaviors that he had admitted, he agreed, were the wrong way to behave (meaning the temper tantrums and the screaming and those two occasions of violence), and he said that 'We tried to be lovers and it didn't work out." Just like that, a copout, a way to get the pain away as fast as he could so that he could go back to pretending he was perfect. I said that that sounded like a closed door, and that I would go. And I went.

I can't help analyzing - it just seemed like he could not face his own behavior, even though I told him I thought it would be easy to change with practice. He said I was insulting him by saying that he couldn't change something in 3 years and that that kind of opinion I should keep to myself. I thought that was weird - I was trying to be encouraging. I kept telling myself: You can't help him, you can't help him! So I didn't try very much to help him. But everything in the house was just as I had left it, photos of me that he had put up all over the walls and fridge, my stuff exactly where I had put it, and my stuff was EVERYWHERE. I couldn't even bear to take it all - linens, dishes, books. Stuff for a couple, more stuff than I would ever need by myself. I ended up just taking stuff I really needed or wanted and leaving a whole lot there.

And he looked really bad. He said he hadn't been eating in the last couple of weeks (about the amount of time he knew I was coming) and he had a really bad stress acne breakout that looks like it needs antibiotics.

It is so incredibly sad and I am really crying as I write this. Why couldn't he at least try? He is losing/has lost me and he knows his behavior was wrong. A normal person would say, "Oh my God! let me try something to keep my loved one!" Well, you just said it. He's not "normal," whatever that is. That is reality. As things are going now, it's unlikely that this reality will change. At least today was the first time he admitted that his behavior was not right. But he seems to think he has done all he can, and yet he still rages and that's why I broke up with him. This is a crumb. Not enough. Don't let your empathy get in your way because you got a crumb so you rationalize to yourself that "he's trying."

I forgot to bring The Verbally Abusive Relationship  with me so I went out and bought another one. I need to re-read it. The ex was trying to pretend nothing bad had happened, nothing that wasn't normal fighting, just a difference of "feelings" or opinion, minimizing, denying - and yet he finally admitted that there were things he wished he hadn't done. I think that an abuser's behavior is so mortifyingly bad that for them to take a hard look at it is too painful and destructive to their self-esteem. My ex was such a picture of low self-esteem. And I agree with Dr. Irene, I think he must be depressed - I've thought that before. He said he left all my photos on the wall because the times he spent with me were the only happy times he has had in the last 3 years. How can someone say that and not try to change so that the relationship will work? Is he lying?

I am living 2 hours away from him, but he didn't ask for my phone number and I didn't offer it. And I won't call or initiate contact although we agreed that we could be friends. It's just too sad. 

Love, Really Sad Perdida Sometimes what is real is very, very sad. Accept what is...

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Saturday, June 23, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Well, today is Saturday and I am grounded. Off my feet, that is. I have a huge blister on my foot from doing all of walking. So, I've been home taking it easy. Came into work to read all of the posts and do one myself.

I'm doing better. Tried to make myself cry a few times, but couldn't - so I'd start cracking up (LOL) instead! What is sooo hugely funny is that every time I have gone outside to either go to my car or throw out the garbage - Dr. Psycho would drive by. As we live and drive down the same streets, its anybody's ballgame. But I've been good. I've not driven by or even walked by. I go the opposite direction, and if he goes outside I do a U-turn.

I've lost 6 lbs so far from walking and eating better - its taken me a month - but that's OK. Wow! I'm physically looking more toned - and that alone is helping my self-esteem. Not interested right now in finding a new man for a relationship - though my personal ad is out - maybe just new friends - because I am really getting into feeling some deep things. I can't explain it - I think I like what my reality is starting to show me, as I've been in denial and fantasy for a long time thinking, hoping, wishing, etc. and now I see how it all will fit for me - like a 'reshaping' of my future and even though I am sad about ending things - I ask myself 'what did I lose'? And then I LOL 'a man who abused you!!' That's what you gave up, Sharon. Yep.

 A mean spirited man named Dr. Psycho who loathed himself and others around him. So, I get on my high-horse and think about that for awhile. I know that he lost a great woman because of his own issues. And he knows it too. But there is nothing I can do about that. I didn't lose a great man because of my issues. In fact, I think I've gained and learned something here. So, experiencing these painful feelings feels good at times because it feels like I'm healing - and leaning in is the only way - no amount of denial, wishing, hoping will help the process. Just the real nitty-gritty get-down-and-dirty crying your eyes out does the trick for me. I'm not enjoying this blister on my foot, though. OUCH!

Hugs, Sharon  Dear Sharon, Trubble's coming right over with some flea powder and an old rag. He's  convinced he can fix your blister!

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Saturday, June 23, 2001

Dear Perdida,

I am SO sorry about what had transpired in your last email. I've been following your posts regarding this issue and I was so hoping for a more favorable outcome. As you were too, I am sure.

Well, what can I say. Life is all about choices. And apparently he chose the EASY WAY OUT. For him, the hard way would have been doing something about it. Did the therapy issue again be discussed during your visit? He chose the easy way out because it would be toooo painful doing it any other way. He would have had to be emotionally stripped from everything - bad behaviors, etc. - and he is NOT willing to look at himself. That's why you saw everything the way you did. That's why he is so depressed. That's why he looks bad. He's fighting his demons and they have won. He couldn't even touch your stuff for the fear of FEELING the pain. To touch is to feel. And he can't. He is so much in his own world of 'crap' he can't even begin to look at it. You did what you had to do. This is a start for YOU. Again, another 'process' for you. Again, more pain you will feel through what happened. You will get through this. He won't ever get through it. But you will. Because acknowledging your pain is the beginning of recovery. And HE is in too much pain to even go there. So, good thing you acknowledged the fact that you can't save him. He's in too much pain. Still too hot to handle for him. Remember, you do hold the power. Still after all of this time. Or you would not have seen what you did.

A big hug to you --

Sharon

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

Hi Sharon,

Thanks for your email although it made me cry! Again!  I am known as a crybaby, no repressing for me, thank you!  Giggle!

You are exactly right, he DID take the easy way out. We didn't talk about therapy again. I didn't expect to talk about the relationship at all, and I didn't expect to feel like I wanted him back or even that I still loved him, and that was all a surprise. On the drive down, I had totally empowered myself, realizing and reflecting that I had all the power because I didn't need anything from him and could walk right out of his life. It was interesting to feel all those feelings and not be a prisoner of them, because in the end, as I was paying careful attention to what he was saying, I realized that he is very very stuck, and there was nothing at all I could do about it, and I did in fact walk back out of his life. There's nothing left at his house that I need to go get, although he's left with a lot of reminders of me. He said that he liked having my stuff there and left it where it was because he knew that I would always come back to get it, that I would be back. I'm sure I hurt him when I said that I realized I still had feelings for him after being convinced I didn't; maybe I shouldn't have said that but it is true. Maybe it isn't wrong for him to know that it's possible to lose someone's love.

Well, anyway, for all my bravado on my posts I was also hoping for a different outcome. It seems like it must have been very painful for him when I broke up with him, but I didn't hear from him in all those months (he said "You told me not to call you"). I tried to put myself in his shoes but if it had been me in his shoes I would have done things very differently. I asked him if he had been trying to get me to break up with him, was he intentionally pushing me to leave, that I had felt that way for a long time - of course he said "no" but I did have the chance to get some of my feelings out there.

I was really hoping, of course, that my leaving in February would be the impetus for him to go to therapy, but it wasn't. Could it be that this time he will? I feel like I broke up with him all over again. When I left, I just did the air kiss thing and said "take care of yourself" and drove off. He stood in the yard, shoulders stooped, with this forlorn look that he has, watching me leave. It's all so pathetic. So much pathos, so easily resolved happily, so close and yet so far. What utter stupidity and waste.

I just sat in Starbucks for several hours re-reading Evan's book The Verbally Abusive Relationship  and underlining in red the parts that resonate (practically the whole book). I realized I am doing it for him, still trying to fix, teach, explain! Then I would refocus and read it for me. I realized he was totally withholding, the whole 24 hours we were together, in addition to the denial and minimizing while we were talking about the relationship. I was businesslike when I first arrived and he wanted to give me a long hug, but I don't think he would have been any less withholding if I had been warmer. He only became more withholding as I warmed up. I read the book, and I remembered. I hope there will be an appropriate opportunity to give him the marked-up book - such an opportunity would be a communication from him that he was willing to work on things. I only wish Evans had included more words of hope for the abuser. I sense that my ex feels like a loser and that's why he controls. It's so sad; he is brilliant, young, handsome although if he doesn't start taking care of himself he will look more than 50 before he is 30. It's just how he learned to behave growing up and that's why I think of it as a habit that can be changed.

But I won't waste any more time trying to understand, or help, or teach, or whatever. It's time to disengage. He closed the door. He may expect me to knock, but I won't. (I just wanted my stuff...)  Hang in there...

Love, Perdida

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

Dear L,

I am in a similar situation. My husband is in complete denial. I have found it really helpful to attend Al-anon and for my kids Alateen. Just to hear the other members tell similar stories and validate your feelings. You are doing the correct thing by protecting them. I met a lady at a meeting that just had her kids taken away because she did not take the necessary steps to protect them. She was too afraid at the time. It had escalated beyond her control. That's what she thought because she felt so beaten down. She says her mother never left her abusive alcoholic father. She thought it was normal. It was heartbreaking to sit with her in her pain. I kept telling myself. That could be me next time if I don't stop it. Now she is attending these groups and getting the strength. I attended a Battered Women's Group to learn ways to communicate during his hostile times in front of the children. I found it necessary to take my children to a behavioral specialist to help them learn how to communicate their feelings and to help me set-up a safety plan. I have a secret pass word and told them what to do if mommy and daddy argue or they don't feel safe. I ran through a series of different situations. Just like a fire drill we did a practice run. My son is 8 years old and now feels like if an argument gets out of control that he has some power to leave the scene or go get help. The children really need to hear what they are experiencing is really happening and that you will do what ever it takes to provide them with a safe home. Most importantly that it is not their fault. Yes.

My husband filed for divorce at the end of March to "up the ante" like your husband. I did not realize that I was in for the biggest power struggle of my life. I am fighting for my spirit at this point. I endured 9 1/2 years of this unhealthy relationship. I am not willing to "enable" his behavior for another 9 1/2 years. It stops here. I thought I could change him. From everything I have read that they have to hit bottom to want to change. Sometimes it takes a loss such as a job, divorce, etc. for them to "wake up". When you stay you are actually "enabling" the behavior. That's what he is counting on. I have learned to watch their actions not their words. They have to back up their words with actions. They avoid admitting they are wrong at all cost. They will avoid making a commitment to change, and or tell you what you want to hear then go back to what they want in a couple of days or weeks. They start that "Stinkin Thinkin", blame you and distort their reality to suit them. Each time in their irrational head they think "Well, I just need to get more control over her." So they "up the ante". Nope, I am learning I can only change ME, and do what I know in my heart is right for my children.  And, some will never change and will never hit bottom...

I can tell you that if you just stay strong, and learn all that you can about yourSelf that you will just know in your heart that you are doing the right thing.

It's been 6 months since I woke up. He filed for divorce 3 months ago. He refused to leave. He has been attempting to prove that I am crazy or an unfit mother. Kind of difficult since I am taking the necessary steps to protect myself and my children. He finally slept at his mom's this week instead of the family room floor. I asked him for some time and space for 6 months but he refused. I told him this time that if he did not leave, that I was taking the kids to a shelter. (now, I don't recommend this to everyone, I knew I was safe in saying this because he knows he is being watched by the neighbors, and my family.) I explained that I was not falling for the manipulating and passive aggressive behavior any longer. I finally learned how to disengage. What a lifesaver! He really thought I would give in like I did in the past. I kept telling him over and over. If you respect me like you say you do then you will allow me this time and space. He just left me alone at the house on the weekend for the first time. I had to leave with the kids to relatives houses every other weekend. He has been taking them all out on the weekends. He "visits" about an hour a day during the week. This is the first time he is really suffering any consequences. He asked my son if he wanted him visit him on the weekend. My son answered "NO". My son has caught on to the manipulation and games. He is ready for peace in his home. He agreed then it would be best he stay away and give me my time and space. He is already feeling the pain. I figured if he had to sit with himself and suffered the consequences then perhaps, he might "wake up". We will see. Yes. You've created the space he needs to heal. The rest is up to him.

Meanwhile, I am attending classes to update my work skills, job placement research, preparing my children for the changes, and the working on the divorce paperwork. My main goal is to become financially independent. I have been out of work for 8 years. I have been staying home with the kids and doing daycare. I stopped daycare when I realized that I was not able to provide a healthy environment for the kids any longer. I have my 2 children and one neighborhood child that the parents know the situation. He has all the pension, 401K, and seniority. He was controlling me through the money. Now, he is ordered to pay all the bills. He refuses the internet, telephone, gas, and my personal items. That's okay. He buys the kids their supplies and food. I just simply told him I would eat beans before I allowed him to control me through the money. That nipped it in the bud. He now purchases all the items requested on the grocery list. You just have to be willing to do what ever it takes. Exactly. My husband has tried just about everything to control me. As it moves I learn a new healthy coping skill.

With your children, they won't understand it now, but as they grow older, they will. I have been telling my children that it's okay to love both Mom and Dad. Mom and Dad are having a difficult time communicating because we did not learn the skills growing up. We are both coping in our own way. Sometimes people are in so much pain that it's hard to see that we are hurting the people around us by our behaviors. That does not mean that we don't love you. We are loving you the only way we know how to. I will do what ever it takes to provide you with a safe home.

Hang in there L. You will be okay just do what it takes to protect yourself and your children. There are wonderful people out there to help and guide you.  Like you.

LisaMM

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

Hi all,

Sometimes Dr Irene, I think I will still be here in catbox 101. I hope by then I will be posting as healed and helping others; but just now I think I am starting to realise how good it is for me to really admit my need for help! Yes....

Becky, I know just what you mean about pretending to be alright. JUST what I do. If you will agree to stop selling yourself short by this then so will I. The therapist can only work with what she sees.

I too can appear so ok. This is a good skill in one way as it means you can avoid losing everything work wise etc by cracking up (only that caught me out too for a while). But it sells us short of our own healing. I even LOOK healthy. It drives me nuts that I can be really one step from death's door and someone will tell me "you are looking really great!" Even after the stuff last week I met a friend in the street while my mind felt like a stuffed banana, I felt sick and heady and as if I was about to cry my heart out. She said, "Wow you look great!" So easy to cover my needs up!

The thing is, neither of us are going to be helped if we don't admit where it really is at...

And for you and me we are actually going against our own belief system in doing so ..so that lesson will keep coming back...Becky you need, just like me to be really honest to get the help...and I know how hard that is.....

Hugs....and don' forget how great you are.

Dr Irene. I did think Dr Mousie would get blipped. I just kind of wondered for a while if she had a need and couldn't say it. A lot of  people ring help lines for a friend and really it is them. But usually you can tell - or they admit it in the end.  Dear, BleedingHeart Jay, and other Benefit of the Doubt Codependents: Yes, Mousie needs help. Big Time. But, I could care less how much poor Mousie may need help but can't admit it.  Mousie's intent is clearly to disrupt and intimidate, so this is not the forum for her/him/it. 

I hope the non Christian posters weren't offended by my 'sermon'. I was posting out of my belief system. I won't and don't want to start a theological debate in the catbox. I know that is why you started GHU. I think that there are Christians who post here and so I knew there would be a few who understood what I was saying; but I also kind of needed your input as well.. I actually think it is important sometime to have an outside view as Christians can be very good at deceiving themselves into thinking only a Christian point of view from an out and out Bible thumper is God speaking.

Actually it never worked like that with me. Christians talk about 'discipleship' thinking this only happens in Church. I have always found for me that is the least likely place to help me...(oh dear not knowing the church!) This is when God shows you how to move on by identifying the part of you that needs to change - and it can mean recognising the good stuff...Sometimes it is a painful process. I actually found the hardest times were what I had to sort through on my teaching courses.....I had to see me far more clearly in that context!

I do hope I didn't offend anyone ,,,,the therapist works within the belief system of the client. (Well Erickson certainly did!) Whatever I believe about salvation etc. I was posting how MY interpretation of things are and not knocking others, If I wanted to 'evangelise' then this would be an inappropriate forum.  No problem Jay. I'm glad you posted what you did. It gives me a chance to "translate" because all roads lead to Rome and who cares which one you take. You take the one or ones that work for you. My purpose was to "broaden" what you were saying.

I just wanted top make it clear.

Giggle. believe me ..some Christians are shocked I use aromatherapy and homeopathy and if I dared to mention I had had 'hypnosis' they would be writing to me telling me it is a tool of the devil! This would be out of genuine concern but a complete misunderstanding of what exactly happened in the PTSD therapy. ALL that happened was I was put into a very relaxed state and ran through the stuff as if on the outside of a TV screen looking in.. I did not even have to say all that happened....It was all very clinical and I was completely conscious and felt totally in control of my own belief system...

Perdida- time to leave the past behind and move on???????

L - Thanks.

Dr Mousie. I think you have been deleted from more than one forum? You can be really upset or you can say. "I need to learn from this." It could be a turning point. Sometimes we are more able to control our behaviour than we think. I saw a video of someone with Tourette's syndrome a few days ago. The thing that I learnt was is that all the inappropriate swearing and shouting is a form of self medication. It makes the person feel better as it relieves the symptoms; but it doesn't make them exactly un-isolated from society! The person on the video was able to recognize that they DID have control over their actions and find other ways of feeling better. They couldn't stop the physiological stuff, but they could take some control and find a quality of life.....think about it. Could you do yourself a favour?

I don't mean you have Tourette's. I mean could you do things in a way that meant people don't delete you? But, I think Mousie wants to get deleted...

Theressa. when we are both healed as far as we can be lets do a psychotherapy course and set up together!

Jay herself? Needs to know what Dr I means about the Yam cream. I do know Yam affects hormones.... but that was my Drs prescription. All I meant was that it's a powerful hormone and you were talking about your doc playing around with it. If you really believed your doc was playing around, I was suggesting that perhaps you needed a new doc.

I think I need to start helping myself and get a little more of the hated self discipline... I am going to start with the jungle (garden) and no excuses about not liking gardening and house... where Jake won't notice I touched it. Giggle! This will be for me and HKK, I am also going to make myself do the hated swimming and get the bike fixed so no excuses...In fact I am going to make a timetable...I will HATE this but it is a part of self love to get me back into functioning...days spent on the internet are fun but not actually helping solve my life crises and I am going to use my own form of self hypnosis and guided visualization  to do it (Christians please not e this is not about going into an uncontrollable trance state ...but as one condition of the counseling was I went to church and no excuses and it is Sunday then I think I must get ready.. and actually go!

Sleep sure does focus the brain!

Jay

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

LisaMM,

Thanks. I have definitely had many talks with my children (who are teenagers), about their Dad and me. Like I told them yesterday, it's not like he woke up one day 5 years ago and said, "gee, think I'll drink, scream, name call, destroy property, and do anything to hurt my family". He loves us, but right now is incapable of even loving himself. As an ACOA, I am very adept at separating the behavior from the person. Unfortunately, that was my biggest downfall. Until I went to ALANON, I was minimizing, rationalizing, and justifying too. No more. That's why I am now in the beginning of the divorce process, trying to restore the sanity around here. My oldest, who will be 20, has called me the stability in their lives. When I was having a rough day last Sunday, he gave me a hug and said, "Mom, it's okay to cry. I hate seeing you like this, but it's better than seeing him treat you the way he does. You have a good life ahead of you". He's right. While this is painful, these tears will eventually subside. If I allowed us to remain in the situation, those tears could go on forever.

The only thing bothering me is he hasn't even tried to contact his children. I think this bothers me more than them. My youngest, 15, said "I want a relationship with Dad, but not until he gets help". Right now, he's so embedded in his own crap, he can't even see his way out of it. We are the ones with the problem, not him.

He called yesterday about picking up some mail, and again told me I wasn't the same person he married. Translation: I won't go out and have a few drinks with him. I told him, sorry, but every major episode around here involved you drinking only, and I'm not playing "Russian Roulette" with you. That is a risk factor that needs to be eliminated. Get the alcohol out of the way, then you can see what the real issues are. Nope...not his problem. Well, we know it is, but it's no longer ours.

He has had every opportunity to get help, but he never took it seriously that he had a problem. Still denies it. So be it. That is out of my control, but protecting myself and my children is in my control. That is what I am focusing on. Stay strong. He will try to get to you.

Like Perdida's post, it is so sad. To see the one you love so lost and buried in their own muck...

L

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

Dear Perdida (and all)

I completely understand what you are going through. You see this person with so much ability and so much potential, and yet they don’t make positive choices. I often try to understand this myself and it perplexes me.

People like your x who run these negative programs often lack self-control. I don’t think they trust *themselves*.

I have concluded that abuse is not the problem, But a symptom of the problem. The problem is the negative program running in that person’s head – the abusive behavior is just a result. You bet.

I am currently reading “The Feeling Good Handbook” by David Burns. It’s a great book for almost anyone. Yes! It talks about common types of ineffective thinking that lead to depression and mood swings. 

I still believe that the best thing you can do for an ‘acting out’ negative thinkers, is to simply not accept their abuse. However, it is really difficult to accept ‘denial’, or ‘twisted thinking’, but what other choices do you have?

I recently went through an incident where my own ability to accept ‘what is’ was tested. My friend was acting out miserably. I didn’t react, I didn’t react, and then, oh boy - did I blow! I was angry for about 3 days after this incident! Though I know my friend couldn’t deal with my anger effectively, I also realized that my feeling of anger was 100% appropriate! *No* human being would have not felt angry in this situation, unless they detached from their feelings.  Your goal is not to "stuff" your anger. It is to hear it. But, you won't "hear it" if you blow up. When you are asked to "do nothing," it is to give you a chance to understand your feelings, and to examine whether or not they are rational. When you get real good at this, you can nip the anger very early in the chain - by calmly asserting yourself before your annoyance escalates to anger.

My past feelings about anger were sometimes muddled with logic that said “but Buddha wouldn’t be this way”. I’m not even sure about *that* any more – I don’t think the objective for spirituality is not to feel feelings, *including* anger. Of course not! I think the objective is to take the anger and deal with it effectively. Yes. This was always the objective!  By "doing nothing" instead of reacting, you build coping skills in tolerating the frustration, etc. You also have the time you need to understand what your body is telling you the problem is, and to work out how you are going to handle it. I *was* angry. I wanted an apology, but none was forthcoming. I needed to let myself feel what I felt (without going haywire) and be okay with it. I chose to treat my anger as a gift. Excellent! The anger was a signal – Always! a very significant one - that I can’t allow myself to be subjected to abuse. It was self-protection.

Finally, I was able to let the behavior be ‘his problem’ and not my own. Bingo!

BTW, he even apologized after I had cooled down and detached.

The problem is, Perdida, that with your guy – even if he *did* embark a path of change, you would most likely go through more anger for what ‘was’, as I have done. Yes. This is what is so difficult for negative thinkers to deal with. There are reverberations from past abuses that keep echoing until the abuse is long gone. Yes, but that is just a normal aspect of reality that they have to deal with, for the sake of their own recovery.  Initially the steps to healing must seem very difficult to a negative thinker. Feeling vulnerable and facing the truth (no denial) about the impact of what you have done must be terrifying for some of these people. Yes. Many of these people are horrified at themselves.

This is probably why most choose denial. It’s much ‘easier’, short term to pretend that it’s not your problem, or to choose to think that it is the ‘other person’s’ problem, in order to not have to face these scary feelings. And the codependent plays along by buying into the denial as well, also seeking to avoid feelings of pain and anger...

The thing that is so sad, is that the key to changing the thoughts, starts with acknowledging them. Running away from them because they are frightening ensures a long term plan of self-destruction. Yes. For all of us, abuser, victim, cat, dog, you name it.

Other than trying to manipulate or control the situation, you have no ‘sane’ choice, Perdida, but to accept. (well, you *could* send him a copy of “The Feeling Good Handbook” – giggle) I have a hard time with this too, but the harder us ‘helpers’ try, the less others need to help themselves. She's right Perdida.

Take care Perdida – I feel for you.

Asha

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

Dr. Irene,

My gut was telling me the same thing your instinct about Mousie. I could see he was attempting to push buttons to get us to respond to him. I chose to ignore him. Just as others will always do when someone comes on any sight with unacceptable comments. Thanks for blipping him out of here. Saves me a little time scrolling over his post. 

Okay...back to the good stuff :)  Talking about good stuff, send me or post your url. I'd love to see your site! Thanks.

LisaMM

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

I tried to submit this earlier but I don't think it worked. It did. I just deleted multiple copies of lots of posts! I wrote a while back. Now my divorce is final and things are getting settled. My best friend told me that my ex-husband e-mailed her to let her know that he would be in her town on business. He wants to get together with her. They used to do this when we were married. However the last time he told me he took her to dinner once and she told me he actually took her to dinner and out dancing twice - and she watched a movie with him in his hotel room at night. This was when we were still married and I told him that I did not like that, and especially that he didn't even tell me. Well anyway now we are divorced so it's none of my business, but I feel I should warn her. I know he is playing some kind of control game and he gets to affect two people this way: both my best friend and me. She says he was always nice to her and even though we are divorced, she doesn't want to be rude to him. I know what he is doing. I know him. Why can't other people see it? Why does it bother me? It's not my problem anymore. I keep thinking maybe I am wrong maybe he is a nice guy wanting to visit a friend, but I know this isn't true.  

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

First of all, what is Trubble kicking up that is red? Is that soiled kitty litter or is Trubble a boy kitty and he's marking? Either way I think it's inappropriate.

Second, the banning of Dr Mousie was wrong I feel. Everybody needs humor to heal and without the doctor, there really isn't any of that here.  This is a depressing site. How can people expect to get well when they don't laugh? I've been hospitalized twice medication adjustments due to bi-polar disorder and both times, one of the most emphasized thing was LAUGH. Laugh over anything, but laugh. It's too bad that everybody here is buried under the litter in the box and can't (or won't) clean themselves up. I don't know where you've been if you've missed the humor all over the site, but so be it. If you find it depressing, it is not the place for you.

I've met Dr Mousie on other sites (no the Dr has not been banned as you stated) and everybody appreciates the humor that she conveys. Yes, I said she. Dr Mousie is a woman, Just as yourself, Dr. Irene   Mousie may be a neutered cat for all it matters. Intimidation lightly veiled with humor doesn't make it here. By the way, Mousie wasn't banned. The hostile posts were banned - and will be banned.

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

HI Asha,

Thanks for the post - I am going to go out and sit at Borders this time and take a look at it! I only wanted to pick up my stuff!! I didn't expect to find feelings inside me and then turn into some lost yuppie, haunting bookstores and coffee houses, drowning my repressed sorrows in latte and self-help books! :)  This is not a book to "look at." This is a book to read and re-read, and practice, practice, practice!

I started out fine today and this afternoon I feel sad. I didn't expect to want to visit him and to think about being close enough. Everything you said was right, Asha. I just have to keep a new mantra going: He can't get it together and I want to move on. He really can't get it together. He really doesn't see any need to get anything together. It's too hard to get something together. It's easier to drop the relationship. Dr. Irene told someone - Lisa MM? - something applicable to my ex - he doesn't love me enough, regardless of what he says, to get it together, and/or he doesn't love himself. Gee, that's a long mantra, but I will just have to take a deep breath and keep repeating it.

It's funny, but it's easier to go on with my life if I see him as not loving ME enough. I wonder why that makes me detach and stop suffering. Well anyway, it's certainly a shorter mantra! "He doesn't love me enough... he doesn't love me enough..."

Off to today's latte! Sharon, are we twin souls or what?

PS - I called my friend in Brazil and told him I had picked up my stuff. He wanted to know if I was in my house and my ex was in his, i.e. were we still apart. I guess everyone saw this current situation coming before I did, the betrayal of me by my own heart.

Love, Perdida the Yuppie

PS, Jay, howya feelin'?

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Sunday, June 24, 2001

Hello Cats!

Well, I actually had a decent weekend! We, along with my parents and siblings, painted my sister's house and garage--twice! I'm sore all over, but it felt good to get so much accomplished. We hope to keep this going, helping each other with big jobs. Saturday night we spent some time soaking in the motel Jacuzzi and pool (Ah-h-h-h!), slept like logs then finished the garage and trim before coming home. Since Saturday was our anniversary, and Monday is another sister's anniversary, the rest of the family surprised us with a cake--very nice!

It was nice to work side by side with my husband with no tension between us. In fact, the whole family got along great, no squabbles except for one instance when my dad acted a bit insensitive( in the guise of being funny) and hurt my sister's feelings. (She bought a house in a neighborhood dominated by persons of another race, and he makes remarks about it). My sister S and I gave her a pep talk, reminded her that she has done well, and that HIS problems are HIS to deal with).

My H is back in "nice" mode, but I will wait and see how long it lasts. I.E. the kitchen: I think he wants to do it, but he gets so many irons in the fire he doesn't complete anything in a timely way. he'll go just so far, quit, and start something else. Of course my feelings about this aren't supposed to be a factor; a good little codependent goes with the flow, right? So my wanting the room done by a certain date is seen as "pressure."

I will keep any plans and timetables to myself; I think I'll follow my gut for a change!

Trubble, would you like a lady friend? My sis' cat Sophie is a looker: a combination grey and yellow tiger. She's very clean, is great at jumping up on countertops and beds, and while affectionate, has just a touch of haughty disregard for humans. One thing: her front paws have been de-clawed. Would that bother you? Let me know if you want me to set you up! De-clawed? That's on par with being neutered...

Becky

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Dear Dr. Irene and group

I am still thinking about this anger stuff and I understand what you are saying about 'doing nothing' and examining feelings.

In the case I mentioned, I felt I needed to say "stop! this is unacceptable to me." If I were to go through it again, 'consciously' I would have still expressed this, but using better words - i.e. not telling him he was 'being an a****le'. (big oops!) Don't get all caught up in what you did wrong. You are on the right track. While your goal is to "catch" stuff early enough that the "Stop!" comes out sooner, and is therefore less angry, it's normal early on in assertion to have anger spill over. Keep it up and you'll get better at it. 

I don't even know where that came from in me - adrenaline maybe? I think that's what you are referring to when you talk about doing nothing instead? :)  That's just uncontrolled impulsivity. A knee-jerk reaction.

This is where 'victim' becomes 'abuser' in turn, and it just goes on and on if someone doesn't stop it. This is where "victim" looks like "abuser". It's too simple to say that victim "becomes" abuser.

At the same time, I felt so much better once I had said 'no!' I am normally really tolerant, I think over-tolerant Yes! in fact, and maybe because saying 'uh-uh' is new to me, I need to learn more tact in my presentation.

A 'higher' me maybe would have said: "What you are doing is destructive and I won't accept having you act this way around me." My using that "bad word" made the bad behavior towards me more justifiable, rather than creating a better atmosphere for this person to look at his own behavior by using 'higher' words.

I would like to learn to be affirmative, to set clear boundaries that stop or at least limit abuse around me, without acting out myself. Very tricky. These are skills. You can do this. VERY do-able, in fact. I may never be 'perfect' doing this, but I can work on it. At times I feel that doing 'something' to stop abuse, even if it's not the absolute right thing, is better than allowing more of it to come my way. Of course you should do "something." You do want to stop it! The language gets confusing here. All "doing nothing" boils down to is: not acting out. You do what you have to do without acting out and "losing it" yourself. People who don't recognize all their acting out are literally told to "do nothing" to help them first see it. I felt and still feel that doing nothing would have allowed the abusive behavior to go on without consequence. I didn't want to deny or minimize what had happened.

I did look at whether my feelings in the particular situation were rational and I think they were. I still feel I needed to express my anger to this person, but I need to look at more effective ways to do it - like maybe expressing that I am feeling "hurt" or that I am concerned about the impact of the particular thing that was done. Sometimes I'm not in a situation where I can take the time to use 'choice' words, but perhaps as I feel more strong in my ability to protect myself, I will be able to firmly say 'no' to abuse, and express my anger in a way that will benefit me and the person who I am angry with.

This anger usually happens along with a sense of shock or disbelief that someone could "do something like that".  I rarely become reactive when I anticipate a problem - it's when something happens suddenly and shakes me off balance. I'm giving myself a break about my reaction because I'm learning to accept that I'm human and I can't be perfect... I'm doing the best I can with what I have and I'm learning... I'm sure *that* will never end.

I don't usually feel deep anger. When I do, it is because I have been pushed to an unacceptable limit. When I reach that level, I have found that can't just 'turn it off' - it sort of fades down little by little as I reassure myself and bring myself back to center. Sometimes venting helps, along with affirmations that my reaction is normal (though I realize external affirmations aren't always available and I need to reassure myself).

It is easier getting over anger when things can be resolved. When they can't be resolved and there is unfinished business, I think my goal is to 'safely' vent my anger, and to understand completely that as Tim B. said, a few catboxes back (I hope you don't mind me repeating this Tim, 'cause I just love it - it's on my computer desktop and I bring it up to read frequently):

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Hi Dr Irene,

I am glad you said I am in the wrong business!!!

I am on the first of many steps. I now have a dream, a focus, goals for my future. RON said it would come. Today is my last counseling session with this wonderful man, who taught me how to LOVE myself, and to see the beauty in others. I feel so happy these days. So full of live. AND yet despite the mistakes I am working so hard on accepting and learning from them.

I want to share my dream. As you may be aware I am studying psychology at degree level. I have between 4 and 5 years of study left. THE purpose is "I am learning about me".  I was not aware! Cool!

My goal is to study for this degree. The end result is I want to set up my own business and THE best part is I want to set up my business in helping children. BUT not just any children. Those who are bullies and those who are bullied. I want to teach these children how to take care of themselves. EVEN those who can't see the light inside of them.

Though first before this I want to write a book for children like these. I am going to start at home first. I am going to start with one of the most precious people in my life. MELISSA, the book is gonna be a "celebrate me book." In it Melissa will list and draw all about her, the talents, and all the blessings about her, the enjoyment and goodness, and acceptance in her. :)

I really want to help these children in the hope they never have to go through the pain I have had to go through. SO my therapy won't be just about me, it is about my little girl, and my future career.

I want to use my co-dependency to benefit instead of destruct, the difference as RON says is "These seek your help, as you do from me Theressa, this is using your resources GOD gave you to the best of your abilities to enhance your life and those around you." Yes...

What do you think DOC, about my career plans?? Will you give me a reference??  You bet!

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 25, 2001

"Thy who is perfect can cast the first stone." Are any of us perfect? WE are so judgmental, we use our own experiences and perceptions to force our judgments and expectations on others. We condemn others without even knowing the histories.

OUR job is to set limits on others behaviour if it effect us personally or our children.

Though it is saddening when we judge and feel we can play GOD with our young peoples lives. WHO are we to judge others behaviour, and it rightness, others mistakes.

I am talking about a very controversial subject and will probably be cursed for what I am about to say, DO I CARE, NO! For you can judge me all you like, I know the truth will protect me.

Have I gone mad. NO! I have become more sane than I ever was.

*************** I am talking about the James Bulger case. This little precious child should never have been murdered. Those boys of 10 years old should never have been emotionally abandoned. Three lives wrecked, and why because our society judges parents, instead of supporting them.

I hold the society responsible for this little precious child's life. NOT those boys of 10 years old. WHAT sort of society makes mistakes so bad that mothers/parents won't ask for help when their child is going out of control.

BOTH mothers of the boys who murdered this sweet little child say they knew they needed help but the fear of being judge was high.

What sort of society punishes surgeons and doctors yet expects to be told it is okay for the office worker to make mistakes?

What sort of society lets children down in schools across the world. Since it only accept academic skills, those who are practical and can't articulate their talents are not allowed to be praised and encouraged for the blessings GOD gave them.

I see in the news papers and across the media, radio, TV, all the comments about COST, MONEY to the tax payers. NO word about the valuable lives that have been messed up is there?

A society that values money over everything else even the trees. Is this what GOD wants??

These boys are SICK psychologically, centuries of emotional pain built up. Years of poor habits that stretch across centuries. SO are these boys responsible for bad habits of many life times.

Freedom we say "BRITAIN, AMERICA GIVE FREEDOM" Or do they?? Freedom is acceptance do we accept ALL??? I do not think so the evidence speaks for itself.

Am I saying these boys should be forgiven? YES!! Do I think they should stay in supervised secure protection?? YES!! I think the person (Home Secretary) or whoever it was who said that these boys should not go to prison, IS A VERY SENSIBLE MAN.

If you put an infected person with more infected people will it make them better?? NO! Will it bring back the lives lost? NO! It will destroy more.

THE chaos in our own lives is major but we are more concerned in judging others. We all want to be accepted for the imperfect beings we are. THOUGH we don't have equality and acceptance for others.

AM I saying no one should ever be held responsible for their crimes? NO!

What I am saying is we need to rehabilitate, get rid of the psychological pain. AND NOT just lock up these people who are mentally and psychologically damaged. WE NEED TO REPAIR as much as we can the damage.

James Bulgers family will never be at peace, and my heart and soul goes out to their pain. NO one can say it is OKAY for this lady to go through this pain. THOUGH all the people involved the boys who murdered this precious child will also suffer.

MAYBE it is time for us to look at home, in our own houses and sort out our own issues and accept what we are. THEN maybe we can stop judging using money as our tool to bash others.

To value money over repairing lives is INSANE. When you see that money isn't meant to cause wars it is meant to be respected and used to improve lives.

IF money is respected it brings much help but when it is abused and over valued over lives, then it is disrespected.

Dear God,

I hope one day that each and every one of us can accept ourselves, our family's and then their is hope for the world to be at peace and acceptance to.

Love Theressa

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Hi all,

Jay here, I will not feel stupid I engaged with Dr M and only because I am practicing being allowed to make mistakes! It just didn't bother me that much..  You really didn't engage Jay. You tried to give Dr M the benefit of the doubt. Nothing wrong with that. My limits are just much shorter than yours. That's all.

Perdida- I am sorry it worked out with pain but you seem so in control of where you are heading although you may think you are not; your head seems ruled by your head and not your heart so I think you will be ok.

Lisa - I thank you for all your help. I am still very 'fuzzy" which is a hard feeling for me to feel so I kind of keep reading and meaning to reply and then can't get it together like usual. What I suspect I need is a holiday but no chance at all of that just now-I will look again and reply and I am so sorry you have had so much hurt too. I always get confused by this- are we also talking on GHU? I kind of need both forums just now and there is a Lisa there and then I get confused if it is the same one!

I have to go to the e docs this morning- I just do not want to go as I feel like "what can she do anyway."

Gordon - I noticed how you replied to people who felt like I did on another part of the site, and I just want to say you did really well in acknowledging a fault.......no buts...oh if only we could take a bit of Gordon's brain and plant it in our partners! I guess that wouldn't be exactly ethical and I just mean that part of his brain.

Mel - you haven't posted...........come on....you wanted to post somewhere but when the challenge came did you opt out? If we all only posted when others agreed with us then none of us would be here!

HKK has his own views on the pic of Trubble- he is in Trubble if he states them! Life is to short to worry about a picture of a cat.

Trubble seems anyway to have a Transmogifier and be in several places at once! (If you don't know the relevant cartoon then this makes no sense). jay  Don't forget, Trubble has the broom Lynn gave him. It flies faster than the speed of light!

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Dear Jay Honey,

I want to comment on your post at the bottom of cat box 41 it will help you start to receive more:

Firstly YOU SHOULD ask for "what you want" for your needs to be met. And you have to accept the response you get and then look at your other sane options. (Sometimes the sane option is to accept you weren't meant to have it, otherwise the universe would have provided a way to meet your needs)

THIS INCLUDES asking for cups of tea.

"Seek and thy shall receive"

Don't assume others SHOULD know what you need!! It is always your duty to yourself to ASK.

You usually get more when you ASK and not just wait and expect others to GIVE.

Another thing I want to comment on is:

Depression, I am not a medical doctor not my field, however, I do have commonsense I think. (TRUBBLE do you agree??)

Depression in your life maybe about not concentrating on hearing JAY'S lessons. Taking small steps to look after JAY. Taking time to feed herself spiritual food.

Maybe Jay can take GOD'S order seriously. SHE MUST put herself first, and take care of herself. IT is an order!!! No choices here!! She must stop abusing herself, by thinking others deserve resources she to deserves!!!

So is Jay listening to GOD. Is she hearing his message, even the psychologist tried to show JAY what God is trying to tell her.

Is she listening to GOD??

When Jay accepts the truth and takes responsibility for grieving and taking small steps her depression will lessen.

IN FACT methinks if she starts ASKING JAKE and accepting his NO'S eventually he'll start saying YES. (It worked for me!!)

Further Jay one thing I am learning is when you stop caretaking everyone else and getting into business you have no business being involved in, or over involved, in helping/advise giving without being asked you start to mind your own business (LIFE), then you have more energy to live your own life.

IF JAY GETS SIDETRACKED could she say "What am I suppose to be responsible for in my life now? I am a poor worker in life if I am not tending to my own life. So better do this as a priority."

Jay your life is a job, so run it like a multi-million dollar company. Give it all you can, act as much as you can in your life. DO it, do it, do it. NOW.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Dear all,

I found that I can get into the Catbox without problems when I use explorer instead of Netscape. So be it. It seems there are a lot of extra posts in and between the ones I read the 1st time I was here. I don't get it. Maybe Trubble did try to eat them and then spit them out later. Can't blame him if he did. I am not going to try to get a grip on all the posts I missed. It is simply too much. I will try to catch up a gain from now on. I am happy I can get in again, cause I sure missed you all.

There's one thing that really stuck with me, while scrolling to the posts and that is the way Sharon writes about Dr. Psycho. Sharon, why do you still loose so much energy on him, why bother whether he has someone new or not, about what he might think or not he sees you. I think the walking you do is great, I know walking (or other physical exercise really helps when you feel down. It can even get to be addictive ! :-). I think you should focus on you, as with the walking. I am not sure whether it is a good idea to focus on getting a new BF right away. It might be better to give yourself some time to get to know the real You. Cause if you know you can take care of yourself, it is so much easier not to put up with bad stuff other deal to you.

Asha, About this discussion on annoyance versus anger. You said you did not react, and then again did not react and then blew up. Dr. Irene said if you don't deal with annoyance, you will eventually blow up. I did this so many times before I got to recognize what was happening. Now I am slowly learning that saying what is on my mind, or at least acknowledging I should say something, helps me not to blow up. I still find it totally scary to tell C. that I do not like certain things, and it usually takes me a couple of days to do so after something happens. But it really helps. Cause when I tell him soon, the anger does not build up, and he seems to have less need to get all defensive, which he does when I get angry. Yes! We might joke, or talk, but it definitely is easier. He too, is learning to do it. Excellent! This is for everybody! Like you I thought, I need to be tolerant, and I translated tolerance in not telling C. what bothered me. But not telling is not tolerance when it keeps festering inside you. Exactly. I know feel the opposite is actually true: telling someone what bothers you in their behaviour, without getting too mad is tolerance. Cause it means you respect them enough to share your opinion, and you tell them, without implying they are worth less because of it. I am still not sure how it works, but it definitely does work. I still get scared when I want to tell him something that bothers me, I get scared he will blow up, get scared it will mean the end of out relation, that we will heave a conflict, you name it. But I still do it, Cause I am experiencing that it really works and that 90% he does not blow up and neither do I. I think that maybe when you tell things in time, your whole composure is different, cause you are not really angry yet. Your partner senses that, and has less net to be defensive, cause you are, in truth, not attacking him/her. Whilst when you only mention things when you are really fed up, your whole body language and tone of voice will probably shout 'attack', even when you try to talk rationally, and he reacts to that. I think this is a typical pattern in our kind of relationships, cause abusive partners tend to react non-conscious. This is excellent. By the way, the technique is known as "assertion" in case anybody is interested. Lots of books on how to. The best part, I think, is that you are facing your fears dead on when you assert yourself AJ. You face the fears that he will leave, etc. So you grow in many ways.

I am not sure whether it makes any sense to you, or any of the others. Maybe it is a personal thing that's just for me.....  No. You explained most people's experience of this stuff accurately.

AS for C. and me, well we did have a rather tumultuous weekend. The friends he stays with are moving to Portugal and he has to leave his house too. Saturday he said, "Can I stay with you, I can find another place maybe, so you can be honest if you do not want it, but it would be easier this way. " I was not too happy, and he felt that, so he got a bit defensive and we really had a difficult time. But I felt, when this situation would have been different, we would not have moved in together yet, so I would prefer not to do it now, because of the situation. I felt guilty and sad, cause I was making things 'difficult'. No. HE was making things difficult by pouting. You were just reacting to his provocation. Guilt, irrational guilt that is,  right on cue.  Bt the other day I still felt like I was right, but I told him I wanted to talk a bout it (our conversation was cut shout, cause other people dropped by) and he said, we do not have to, I will find another place. I said I still wanted to talk about it . He was nice , not angry and that really helped a lot. It is so great to see this happening, he is not pressuring me, I say things he does not like, and he respects it, or seems to at least. Se we both did our own things and I came over to his house and we had dinner together with his friends and later we talked. I was scared, but I also told him I liked the way tings were going, and that I really liked hi and loved him, but things were just going a bit too fast, but that he could stay with me if he could not find an other place, And he said, yes things are moving fast, but I do not want to drop this change to go abroad, and you are right I will try to find another solution. It felt great, especially that we could talk about the fear of moving in together to soon, that I could tell him I love you and I feel were are doing ok, but I am not sure enough to move in together, especially not when it seems to be a decision dictated by circumstances. There were other things we talked about and it was so much easier then I had imagined it could me. I felt great after and very loving. By speaking up, you make room for love I guess......  Not always, but at least you don't complicate things more...

Well, enough for now. He will go to Portugal in July by car to help take his friends stuff there and I will go by air (no broom, just a simple airplane) to bring over his friends cats and to check the place out, and we will go there again in September. He will stay then, at least for a couple of months, and I am considering going there for a year, when we both still want it, and we are still able to handle things the way we seem to do now. Taking care of the Self might not be an easy job, but it is rewarding.

Love to all, take care and see you soon,

AJ 

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Asha,

When your angry about what another has said, why do you feel you need to let them know that you won't put up with this?  Not unusual in early phases of learning assertion.

Your actions would speak louder, your detachment would speak as loud as if you shouted it from a roof top! 

You setting a limit on others' behaviour such as "Please calm down." and then "I will discuss this later" and leaving the situation. WOULD speak VERY LOUD. To say: I am not putting up with this.

YES you should discuss it later. (BUT, discuss not teach! Yes! ) Discuss means you say "I feel we need to be clear about the expectations we hold. "

It could be that no discussion ends up happening, then you have to trust it isn't the right time yet.

ASHA I  feel the way you do, that they "should" know it was wrong, that they "should" see, apologise, KNOW it isn't okay. That if I don't show them how wrong it is how am I ever gonna change things.

This is about our EGO, our need to fix them. This is about control. Fixing another is about controlling that person, Our need to show this is not okay. IF we followed our integrity we would understand our ACTIONS speak a thousand more than any of our words. :)

The lessons come to teach us about US what issues we have (anger signals these), What emotions do we need to sort?

So any interaction is about YOU, you give up your co-dependency of worrying about them getting it.

They get it better from your detaching, as the Actions show it isn't OKAY to behave this way. And, you're also refusing to take responsibility for their stuff.

Though in the end I think your right for understanding that sometimes you can't help but react. THIS IS THE TIME TO UNDERSTAND THE MOST.

To go away and know this is another button that was previously hidden. NO need to beat yourself up. Just need to recognise and go inside you.

FORGIVE yourself as you would anyone else. YOU are sometimes meant to react so that YOU KNOW IT IS BIG and needs working on this issue.

I think the key is to "Do nothing when you can." AND "forgive yourself when it is too big you can't." ACCEPTANCE.

When it is too big that you didn't even know it was coming this is the time to FORGIVE thy self vs. beating thy self up and then go inside thy self to work on the issue.

I think the goal is to listen and do nothing as far as you can. AND then to love yourself enough to forgive yourself when it is deep inside and take a great YANK of strength such as REACTING to bring it up.

What do you think DOC??  What do you think I think? Giggle!

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 25, 2001

I have been reading the posts on "doing nothing", and agree, acting out in anger is a definite "no no". One can say, "STOP!". But here is what I struggle with in the last incident with my STBX. After saying "STOP! Don't do this again!", he grabbed me out of my chair, and started physically pushing me out of the office, still screaming at me, saying to get the F#@* out, cause he built it! If you have any reason to fear the significant person in your life, you do not confront them. Certainly not privately, where you have no backup. I pushed him away from me, not out of anger, but fear. I then left the room, but of course, he followed me out. No boundaries with him! He is using this against me completely, saying I am the violent one! Let him say and think what he wants. Don't react; you know the truth. He says because he didn't hit me Garbage! (I guess grabbing and pushing is something another should accept?), and he was only screaming and swearing ("sticks and stones" as he likes to mock), I was wrong. Also, as he was drinking, his recollection of the incident is completely different than 2 other sober witnesses. When he threw this at me, I tried to explain (yeah, I know. .can't rationalize with someone being irrational, even sober Yep. ) that I was scared, and I was sorry and not proud that I did it, but what was I supposed to do? Just take it?! He should have never put me in that situation. He was out of control and scary!  You do not confront. You remove yourself from the situation when there is any threat of physical harm. Call the authorities if you must, and you should have in the incident above. Grabbing you out of your chair is assault.

What does Dr. Irene suggest in a fear vs. anger situation? I know this is a verbal abuse site, but eventually, some crossover to the physical side, maybe not a beating, but grabbing, pushing, etc... Things happened very quickly, and I reacted out of fear. Now it's being used against me by him. This is totally playing on my "irrational guilt" and I'm not quite sure how to get through understanding this so I can forgive myself and move on.  Read: The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster and Regaining Control of Your Life  This book will help you deal with your irrational guilt and other maladaptive thoughts and feelings related to being a victim.

L

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Dearest Jay,

On a serious note:

I think it is a fantastic idea that we set up a treatment center in the future, and my idea is that YOU run the south office and I'll run the north office.

THEN no one up North or down South can say they are getting more than the other end of the country.

We would be able to collaborate, put our ideas together and help others grow. One day we also get AJ to set up a center in her home town.

Lisa MM in hers, B could set one up in her home town. Tim B in his, etc.

Asha and Steve in their home town.

HEY ASHA maybe this is a new route for your professional life too.

I would ask DR IRENE's permission and name the center the CATBOX as it is where I first learnt to become healthier.  No. You would have to name your center's "Ron."

I know there are al-non, AA's all over the world. BUT I think the resources for children are limited. Yes, I think so too. We have child protective agencies in this country. They are so overworked, I've seen them miss who the more destructive parent is in too many of my cases...

The trouble we all are having is it isn't until we reach adulthood we are working on ourselves, which YES helps our children, but not every child has a parent who is able to do YET what we are doing.

We would have to involve the school on some level.

THIS IS MY DREAM to set up these centres.  Go for it!

THOUGH first me and the rest of us here, NEED to work from the inside out. YES it all starts in our own homes. The inequalities, disrespect, acceptance, LOVE and taking care of ourselves. ALL HAS to start with THY SELF FIRST.

So Jay what do you think?

Dr Irene do I have to have a FULL FIRST DEGREE before I could set up a treatment center like this? In the US, you need no degree to administrate such a center; you need a degree if you want to be licensed or certified as a provider in your field.

Also maybe you could clarify if one needs to be registered with the Psychological Society? In almost all States in the US, the doctorate is the entry level degree in psychology to practice without supervision. The Psychological Societies don't matter much and are typically a source of political advocacy, news, direction for the profession, etc. The State Licensing Boards are important. They credential you to practice. The English system is probably very different.

WOW how different I feel now I have a dream to follow!

Take care Theressa

PS Doc You see I know deep down I need to fix me before I ever begin to support anyone else with their growth, just like RON did for me. It's a process Theressa. You've already been supporting people with their growth here, even before you grew... Your wisdom just increases with health...

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Hi All,

A funny thing happened this weekend, in fact more than one, but I will share the one as it cuts the long story short:

I have a slight problem with my hearing, I think it is due to having had many colds recently maybe my ears are blocked?

Any how I find it hard to hear the TV or a group talking when there is back ground noise, and even when it is totally quiet. I can hear general sounds, but low ones I can't.

I have to turn up my TV set so I can hear it.

My partner has very good hearing. My father is deaf in one ear and slightly deaf in the other.

So what happened:

I asked my partner to turn up the TV. (We were at my house) He had the TV control since I'd left it on the sofa he was sat on.

His reply was: "it is loud enough." I said "it isn't for me, I can't hear it, it is not my fault" He said "Look, if you turn it up I am going home. I don't want it so loud". MY reply "Well I can't hear it."

I didn't do anything else. YES I felt anxious and didn't no what to say next. I felt uneasy like I had many times before. Quietly without saying a word I walked over to the sofa he was sat on and turned the TV set up. He didn't reply at first.

Then he said "Just turn it up a touch."  Giggle!

SO he never went home!! I never engaged and argued. I didn't beg him to stay. BUT NOR did I engage.

In the past I'd have continued arguing. ACTIONS do speak louder than words. If he'd have got up and left then I would have left him to.

It is hard sometimes, as ASHA said in one of her recent posts, KNOWING whether to call someone on this behaviour, or to ignore it and learn from it.

THE good thing is I have made an appointment with my family doctor to get my ears tested. (PART of taking care of thy self!!!)

DR IRENE at times I don't knowing whether it is worth the fight. I mean if I just had left the TV set low, I'd have lost out. That would be being a door mat wouldn't it?  Only if your motivation was to appease your partner, keep him around, etc.

Better to take the risk and act and let others choose how they react, then tell them "It is your choice" (If they choose to leave), then detach.

Am I on track here? Yes. And when you get really, really good at risk taking and such, you may at times elect not to exercise your power! You have freedom to choose!

Thanks Theressa

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Hi Everyone,

Jay, I have been extremely busy lately is all. I appreciate all input, suggestions, advice, etc. If I felt challenged, I wouldn't opt out. That would be so unlike me hehehe.

Anyway, things have been going OK. A few times this past weekend I had to tell my partner to stop, I don't want to listen to all the negativity. I don't want to hear how he perceives things that I say in a negative way. I wasn't exactly as diplomatic as I should have been (I got angry and spoke rather harshly) But, he should understand. It was the equivalent of his saying love to all and getting a hostile reaction. I said, "the housework will be there tomorrow, I might not be" and he took it as a dig instead of the suggestion to spend time together. I had no patience to listen to him go on about how I always do this and that to make him feel like he's doing something wrong. I told him to "go ahead and clean the @#$%ing house if that's what you want to do. I don't give a sh!t, I'm not telling you what to do and I never have. The only thing I ever tell you are doing wrong is perceiving what I say or do in a negative way." So I realize I said too much, he feels he should be able to constantly express how he feels and I should just listen without getting defensive. But I don't want to hear about his incorrect perception of my words, if he won't let me respond. He was the one who got defensive in the first place for no reason. So anyway, he said he would work on his perceptions and keep his feelings to himself. It didn't escalate into anything nasty, but I have expressed to him that I am concerned that since he feels inhibited from telling me how he feels because of my response, or even if I was able to listen to it, that all the frustration and anger will build up in him and eventually he will blow.

I know he loves me and I love him, so I'm willing to live with the negativity due mainly to his depression. No Mel. While someone is more likely to be negative when they are depressed, depression is no excuse for negativity. As far as abuse goes, I'm probably being more abusive by refusing to validate his feelings. But his negative perceptions about me could be abusive if I let them get to me by accepting his perceptions as reality. It wouldn't be so bad if I could say," No sweetheart it wasn't a dig, I just want to spend time together." But then along come all the other incidents over the years that he interpreted as negative about him as proof that I don't admit to what I do.   In my opinion, he won't admit that "all those other incidents" were also poor perception on his part. Probably because he feels stigmatized. Seems he doesn't realize how common it is to misinterpret the world when you see the world through colored glasses. He essentially has bad thinking habits he can work on. You might want to give him a book that begins to explain all this. A good title that you may want to read too, is be A Guide to Rational Living  So, this is my only concern that he keeps adding 2+2+2+2 and coming up with -8. But I don't find it nearly as frustrating as I used to. I go gardening or read a book. I know for a fact he respects me and thinks very highly of me. I just hope that one day he realizes he's putting himself down, not me. He must have really low self-esteem to think I'm putting him down when I know that is the farthest thing from my mind.

Well, that's all for now. And if I don't write that often it is because I am OK and busy with all kinds of things. I just want to share my progress or relapses with you and to read about others experiences as well as any thoughts or advice directed at me.

Take care,

Mel

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Theressa and AJ

Thanks for the thoughts. When I spoke to this person about my concerns (at the point of mild annoyance) I have a hunch he was twisting my words in his mind, because my expressing my concerns (at that point, not angrily) had no impact except to get him angrier. I agree that if you get your concerns out early on, you can often avoid having something escalate. In this case, the person could not hear my concerns and my expressing them didn’t make a positive impact. He could not understand me and my expression of my concerns were taken as an “attack” which was really out of proportion with my intent. Sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent the escalation of someone else’s anger. I was frustrated with the lack of understanding, though I realized I had no power to do anything about it.

Theressa – I understand what you are saying. This situation involved the person leaving 3 times angrily, then coming back the first 2 like nothing had happened. I could not take one more incident of this, because it was hurting me too much. He seemed to want to avoid dealing with any of it, and there were other people involved that it was also affecting. I think he was distorting things I had said to him and perceiving them as abusive. He wasn’t interested in talking anything out at that point.

My ‘detachment’ which I had practiced the first 2 times he left, seemed to leave him unaware of my level of annoyance – my “discussion” about my concerns didn’t help either. I really felt he needed to be told in no uncertain terms that I had had enough. Maybe I’m wrong about this, but there are times when I think you just have to say “stop it”. I think that my level of anger was ‘appropriate’; that is, I had been frustrated, I knew he was misreading my intentions and my body was telling me “this is damaging for you to be around Asha”.

I know that I can’t fix things for others. At one time I would have obsessed over this kind of incident and not been able to do anything productive for a few days. Now, I am aware enough that it is “their problem” that I can carry on with my life and not let it affect other things. However, my anger towards *them* does not subside right away – I think this is because my body is telling me that the situation is not 'emotionally' safe for me; I don’t believe it was.

I don’t worry so much about other people “getting it” anymore, but I do want to prevent or limit other people’s poor treatment of me. I think my blow-up did help in part to say “no” to the abuse. This person seemed unaware of his own ‘acting out’ and I felt, for my own sake, I needed to make this person aware – not try to change him, but to say “this is unacceptable to me”.

I agree with what you say about reactionary stuff, but I fear that ‘doing nothing’ at certain times could be more damaging to me; especially if it allows the behavior continue only to my detriment.

L

What you are saying is exactly what I am getting at – there are points where no amount of rationalizing does any good, and where I think a reaction of fear or anger is actually natural. My situation was not in the least physically threatening, but emotionally I was hurting a lot. In a strange way it felt like I was doing what was best for *me*, for once, and not for the other person – I was taking the “abuse” load off my own shoulders and placing them back on his.

Every situation is so different, and many people do carry their anger too far. I’m just saying that I think some anger exists to tell us the situation is really serious. I’m not suggesting ‘acting out’ as a solution by any means.

Let’s say I had walked away and said nothing. Maybe this *is* ego-related, but I would have been churning inside, and he would have driven away thinking he was right. Instead, he was probably the one churning, and I felt relieved. I’m not saying my method was the “right” one, nor did I choose the right words, but I don’t want to carry someone else’s load. I know this is about me, and about my tendency to carry other’s loads, but it’s as if, for my own sake, I needed to state firmly that I will not.

These are just my thoughts. I am getting better at letting go of other peoples junk – I can forgive, but I don’t forget. I don’t want to set myself to be hurt again and again.

Thanks for the input

Asha

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Monday, June 25, 2001

Hi All,

Jody here again.

Sharon and Lisa M, thanks for responding

Sharon: No, thank God - I am not Dr. Psycho's ex from California. I reside on the east coast - and thank goodness, my experience with this kind of abuse in a romantic relationship has been my first (although I was emotionally and physically abused by my dad growing up).

Lisa: No I don't have any children. (Only the three-legged kind: a daschund and a pug - they are my babies for now.)

I think that accepting that there is nothing I can do to change him was the hardest. I kept thinking that it was somehow my fault - If I just tried harder, if I just hung in there and loved him enough that he would change. But it is not my fault, and no matter what I do, I can't fix him or control his actions or decisions. I can only work on myself. When ever I start to feel a little yucky I start to remind myself of all of the negatives - all of the terrible things he has said and done over the years. Do you believe that the last time I spoke to him he ac