Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

40 edited.

Sunday, June 17, 2001

Hi Theressa,

Thank you sooo much for your post's. The advice given is great. I have been doing a lot of "thinking". I am making a list of behavior's that my husband does that I react so strongly to. I am trying to become more aware of what is triggering me. I know that I have almost set myself up to be the victim. I just thought I was powerless. Now I realize I am not. Instead of confronting him or openly discussing what is bothering me I passively aggressive "get back" at him. He has been pushing me away because he fears my rejection. We have gotten into this bad habit of playing games and not talking directly to each other. When I try to talk intimately or openly he runs away?

I have a history of abandonment and sexual abuse. I know I have not been emotionally available at times. It's like we are both off sync. We can't seem to find each other through all the FOG. Something in my recovery from depression set off his narissist personality. Then, my codependent traits came out in full force. We were so emeshed it was hard to tell who I was anymore. I thought he would be so happy to hear I was accepting responsibility for my happiness. Not what happened. He was actually threatened. He says now that he has attended anger management therapy that he realizes he can not control me. He is starting to not be so angry. He seems to want me to be happy. That's what he says. However, he is not ready to accept his responsibility yet. I guess one thing at a time, huh :)

I am really becoming aware of everything I do that is listed on the codependent pages. We were in a crisis mode but things are settling down. He did want to talk. However, he seems to just be saying one thing then doing another right now.

I am in the process of establishing my boundaries. I keep learning new stuff about myself everyday. I am trying to avoid beating myself up.

Theressa, thanks for the tip about learning from my mistakes. I realize I have to make mistakes to learn from them. I am also setting an example for my kids that it is okay to make mistakes, accept responsibility for my choices, and try to do better next time. I was one of those people pleasers that constantly said "I'm sorry" even if it wasn't my fault.

I really understand what you mean about listening to what I feel about being defensive. I am very defensive. I am so hurt by his previous behavior. I have not learned how to forgive but make it clear that if he does it again then there is a consequence. We never established boundaries. I have a difficult time trusting him. Every time I trust him and think he is going to show me he cares about me. He does something to break up that trust. He creates a very chaotic environment. I never know what to expect from him. I feel this is done to keep me off balance. He avoids staying in one spot for very long. I am trying to not take this personal any longer. I realize this has something to do with him now. I read all the narcissist information. I swear underneath there is this really loving guy. He is just scared. I want to reach out but he won't let me. I just use to assume it was all my fault.

I am ready to just settle down. I crave intimacy and to share myself. He is not emotionally available to me especially since he uses alcohol. So I think it's me wanting him to be something he is not. I even wrote a letter to my little girl (that's inside of me) saying all the things I needed to hear to heal that part of me. It has been a tremendous relief to realize that I was powerless as a little girl but now that I am a grown women I have the ability to protect myself. I am still working on accepting that some people choose to do what works for them but that it does not mean that I am not loveable or not worthy of being loved by them. They are just not emotionally available.

I seem to react with outrage when I feel like he is trying to turn the tables on me. He will get caught being deceitful. When I ask him to explain. He gives me excuses and blames me. I have listened to that "stinkin' thinkin'" for so long. I just can't stand hearing him do it anymore. I will then respond in a knee-jerk fashion with extreme frustration or rage. I feel like a reverse puppet. I am learning how to disengage and set the limits. I love the advice to just say "I will not allow you to talk that way to me." Then walk out. It really works. He is left holding the responsibility for his actions. Same thing when he chooses to drink. I am not saying a word.

Now, what would your opinion be about how to deal with his choice to "make friends" with other women outside of our marriage. I feel like this is betrayal. He says he wants to work things out. Keeping in mind he filed for divorce. I feel like he has one foot out the door?

On Friday I was calling to leave a message on his voicemail and 3 messages from a "friend". He says she listens to him. He has cheated before when I was 6 months pregnant. He says it was a "mistake". He says he is sorry for hurting me. He swears that he will never cheat on me again and has not had sexual relations. Now, I find out that he has been spending time with his "friend". I am more upset that he is putting his energy into this "friend" instead of coming to me. Now, he says that is because he tried to get me to go to counseling but I would not listen. That's because I felt he was in denial and not accepting responsibility. He says she is a "loving" person. He says that I seem full of anger towards him. That is because he refuses to accept responsibility. Which now I am not pushing any longer. He says in the next breathe that there is still a chance for us to work things out if I go into counseling with him to hear him out. I just don't know if this is a good idea? I keep wondering if he is using her to manipulate me? I can't seem to get over the feeling that he is not changing and that he is just collecting information to use against me. I don't feel like I can trust him. His therapist warned him once the trust is broken that it's going to be tough. Especially given his recent behavior. I am so torn as to whether I should go just to put my 2 cents in and just say how I feel. He seems willing to listen. He does not agree but seems willing to listen now? I was wondering what a good way would be to set a boundary with his "friends"? I would never even consider having a "friend" especially right now.

I understand with "addictive" personalities (me, included) that the "friend" is just a symptom or something to use to avoid dealing with his problems. He won't admit that he filed for divorce to gain power over me. So my plan was to just keep moving forward with the paperwork for 6 months and see if that's what he really wanted. Then, in the end of 6 months if we could see if there was a chance of not. I feel like a "friend" now is counter productive. She is just what he thinks is going to solve his problems. She offers him an ego boost. She seems to be easy going and "loving". He says he wishes I could be more like her. I told him it was my intention to work on myself. I know I can not control what he chooses to do. He has already gone through this once when he cheated. He said it felt empty. It was a rush then a real let down. It made him want me more. He really "seemed" to want intimacy. Now, I believe it was just control. He just has a different perspective in what the word intimacy means. I can only control what I am willing to allow to happen to me. I am trying to accept that. So do I let this go for now? I can simply ask him to consider focusing his energy towards working on saving our marriage?

I want to stay focused on working on myself and I will. I do have to try to communicate my feelings and boundaries to him.

Does anyone else feel completely hopeless dealing with a narcissist? I just feel overwhelmed at times. I feel obligated to work things out and hear him out. Then, I realize he refuses to accept responsibility and only seems to be worried about how this makes him look? He will say he cares and then his actions make me wonder. I keep thinking "Well, he needs more time to learn a new way of thinking?" As I make my boundaries and feelings heard he does seem to change eventually. I was trying so hard to control him before he keeps taking my boundaries as a control tactic. I explained that it was to protect me or what I felt comfortable with. I wonder what to do? After reading about narcissism I feel like I am just wasting my time? I've gotten over the shock now. I am accepting this is who he is. I hope we will be one of the lucky couples but there are times I doubt it. He makes it very difficult to ever stay focused on my needs because he is just so time consuming?! I keep reminding myself. This is just his survival mechanism kicking in here. Don't panic. Just deal with the issue. Don't take it personal. He needs to learn from his mistakes, etc. But...Ugh...It's draining.

My therapist says she wishes we could just create that space. So, we have been practicing ever yother weekend being separated. He took the kids away to an amusement park. I slept in till noon. I had lots of time to reflect. It's been wonderful.

OH, one last question. I need to clarify what is meant when it is said "WE have a problem". I may have misunderstood my husband when I read all the narcissist info. I thought he was implying we were one person. I may have been attempting to read his mind.

Thanks again!!!!

LisaMM

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Sunday, June 17, 2001

Hi all, Theressa you are doing so great. I am so glad.. I did email you my phone no. but didn't hear from you. I am on NTL so if you do want to ring anytime I can ring you back for as long as we want at the weekend.

AJ I will email you as fast as I feel better....

I did read every ones posts.

Mel, I have to confess that I didn't think you really existed for a fair while- I think your husband did pretend to be you. But I do think you are doing so much better now you are posting in the catbox- taking more responsibility for you. I suspect that like me you make a lot of excuses for others behaviour towards you and forget a bit in the process they did what wasn't ok... It is quite a tough lesson to learn not to be too soft and excusing of others...harder than learning where you are at fault in a way. There is a part of me that given the circumstances would open the prison doors and let every prisoner out because I think they are so hard done by locked up! (doesn't help the victims much that kind of thinking does it?!!!)

Let your husband feel the force of that protection order for his own help. It might be what he needs.- to know that there are boundaries that if you cross them get limits put on them. Let him feel a bit of pain now so he looks at the future in a less manipulative way. So tough to be hard as it affects the victim too; but I really think that is the helpful thing you could do. Tough love is tough. learning that is really hard too.

Meantime, well I am off back to bed and Jake is actually genuinely looking after me......this time I get fed while I am not ok (gigggle) - for new posters he left me in bed without checking for an entire day once when I was ill. Well, well, well... Seems the only way you get TLC in your home is by getting very, very sick...

jay is looking after jay (for once and apologies Mel if that's why I thought Mel should be looking after Mel!!!_ jay Good advice Mel...

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Sunday, June 17, 2001

Jay,

I agree with what you said about how hard it is to reinforce the boundaries when it does affect the victim too. I want to share my thoughts on this. This is probably why I hesitate in enforcing my boundaries. Then I have to take action. If I allow things to remain the same then I don't have to change. It can be comfortable at times to just avoid changing for the better. Unfortunately this was not working with either one of us. That is why he reacted with frustration in anger himself. That is why I have been walking around holding in my anger. It wasn't working because we were fighting against the universe. I had to change and grow to become fully human. I wish my husband could see that it helps us both. If I establish a boundary that I won't allow him to treat me with disrespect, and when he chooses not to then I have to take action. I am in the process of divorce. He filed to gain over me hoping that I will back down. That is because in the past if it was too painful for me to change then I would just give up and allow him to do what he wanted. It was working for him at the time. Not really because he had to keep exploding more and more to remain in control. That's when he lost control and his power. Now, this is not working for me any longer. I am starting to realize I am where I am in my life because I allowed my husband to get away with murder. He likes it this way. The only way it is going to change is if I change myself and not allow his choice in behavior effect my life. If he wants to drink, do drugs, cheat then he can choose to do that. It does not mean I am powerless or have to stay and put up with it. I can change the rules of engagement by changing my choices. I am choosing to say "Enough, I will do what ever it takes to see that I am not living in a marriage to a man that chooses to drink, do drugs, cheat or whatever compromises MY integrity." I am also telling him that I can not allow him to behave in a way that I know is not good for him either by enabling his behavior so that he never suffers consequences. I actually love him (and myself) more than I love my comfort of never changing myself. That's Tough Love Boy.....I know that strength is in there somewhere inside of me!

Thanks for listening. Can I ramble or what? :) It's like the thoughts come out of no where. Once I get started I can't stop!

LisaMM

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Sunday, June 17, 2001

Hi everyone,

I wanted to share that I realize now why my mom kept telling me for years she was sooo tired. She was tired of staying the same. She never hit that bottom and felt enough pain to want to take the necessary steps to change. There has always seemed to be somebody available to enable her. It has been extremely difficult for her to watch me take the initiative to break that cycle. She wants me to be happy but at the same time her fear of losing me has her making comments to undermine me. I tell her I love her but I can not allow myself to just sit and do nothing about my situation. I know in my heart that I can make it. It won't be easy. I will make mistakes but like climbing up a hill. I just want to keep trying until I make it. I don't mean to hurt her by showing her up. I tell her that I need to do this for me.

She seems so hurt when I tell her that I may need to pack up my kids and move to another town that is cheaper in rent so that I can stay home with the kids. She says "Oh, you don't want to do that. Then they won't have their grandmother around the corner. They need me." I tell her that she can come and visit any time. I am only talking an hour a way. I have seen some friends move 3000 miles away. No one in our family has ever done that. I tell her my kids may need me at home with them after school more, and the only way I can do this is changing where I live. If I stay I have to go to work full time. But, my mom tells me she is hurt that I would do this to her. I told her I will do what ever I can to try to stay but if it means compromising my children's well being then I have to do what I need to do.

It's tough. I have never really left home. I am so scared but excited at the same time. If I don't actually do it his time I know someday it would be a great experience to venture out. The only reason I am hesitating now is that my children are experiencing a lot of changes. I am trying to balance my needs and their needs. If their father and I can not work things out then I will allow them to adjust to that change and then prepare them for another change gradually. I don't want them to wake up and not have anything to hold onto. They will have me but I have to establish their trust that I will do whatever it takes to protect them. After what has happened in this house in the last couple of years they don't feel so safe at times. I have to show them that I am really serious about my boundaries and can be strong enough to be self-sufficient. Meanwhile, I will teach them to believe in themselves. We're with you!

Thanks for listening again and again!

LisaMM

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Sunday, June 17, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Thank you Dr. Irene, Trubble for the most delicious Chocolate Mint Cake. How did you know it was my favorite??? And thanks for the support from Tim B and Becky and allows.

I'm still in the 'deep' of things. For some reason, I feel such a great need to not resist these down feelings and really feel the 'loss' of Dr. Psycho this time. I cry when I feel like it, I'm alone most of the time -- I'm not "busying" myself with friends like I was so I wouldn't think about it, and I'm feeling less 'reactionary' towards him since I am leaning into this stuff. The depression comes in waves -- and then I realize what a complete ass he is and was. It used to be that I tried to find that place of anger - however, my anger is over. I'm in pain now. And its deep. He treated me very wrong in our relationship. And to know that he is cultivating new relationships with other women is laughable in one place - and completely 'yuk' in another. Now looking back - he was NEVER emotionally available to me either. I think you are absolutely right in saying that he wants to keep me in the bag for later on as 'back up' in case this one won't work out. I can guarantee anybody that this woman won't work out either. He was playing head games with me about it the last time he and I talked. He wouldn't commit to me that he was seeing someone else -- in fact he got mad and said that I accused him of it. But 2 minutes later he told me to expect to see another woman around his house.

So, I am doing what I should be. I'm not resisting my feelings any longer. I am leaving him alone -- I have NOT called him, gone by there, and any 'deal' about me having his old air conditioner is off as well. That way later in the summer he can't find an excuse to contact me for this 'deal'. That was another reason to keep me hooked in for contact. This relationship was unhealthy and has taken its toll on me every human way possible. I'm not eating, sleep is broken, and am very upset about this whole thing. But I refuse to give in - break down in front of him - and tell him how 'bad' I feel. These are MY feelings - not his - and I own them. I know in time I will feel better - but right now I am in pain - but then I know it will get better. Seeing this in print does help. Thank you so much for letting me writing this without judgment.

Love, Sharon

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Sharon,

You are doing great! Know why? Because you are feeling the pain and dealing with it. When you stumble you get back up and keep going (like the Energizer Bunny)! You are allowing yourself to go through this very painful experience and learn from it. He, on the other hand, is avoiding the pain of introspection by chasing another woman, i.e. victim.

Again: you're doing great!

Becky

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Sharon,

Hang in there. I understand that pain too. It's a pain that will eventually give away to acceptance and then healing. My prayers go out to you!

Just keep believing in yourself. You will be okay.

LisaMM

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Hi Sharon,

I am not judging you, (I to do this, so do the rest of us here at times)

We listen to what we want to hear. Nathan, (Nate) an abuser in recovery said to Becky and Me. The one skill abusers do have is to say the things you WANT TO HEAR and also to SAY just the right words, you've wanted to hear for a long time. AND FINALLY ability to push your buttons and HURT YOU BAD.

So dependent on the abusers motives, you'll always hear either "PUT DOWNS, to make you feel bad. OR PUT UPS to make you feel good." Always for the abusers benefit.

That is why Nathan says ACTIONS speak louder than words.

GOSH don't we give our abusers so much power to make us feel good or bad.

Maybe we should look at what is REALLY best for us, what is the reality. WILL THINGS BE any different after the HONEYMOON PERIOD???

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Julie,

Honey THERE IS IMPORTANCE IN LOOKING GOOD FOR THY SELF, PERIOD. It has nothing to do with looking good for others. THAT IS approval seeking.

JUST CONCENTRATE ON LOOKING GOOD FOR JULIE, NO ONE ELSE. TELL YOURSELF YOU LOOK GOOD, SAY WELL DONE WHEN YOU GET UP AND SPEND TIME TAKING CARE OF YOU.

It is all about you.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Julie,

YES it is the delivery. Though if you can do the following it will help you. "Get hold of the book, when words hurt" it is on Dr Irene reading list.

1)Acknowledge the true part of the criticism . e.g he says "You are always moaning."

Your response: "Yes I am feeling fed up today".

Or "You are always late". Your response. "Yes I am late, sorry".

2) No people pleasing - e.g Explaining why you aren't xxxxx, that he said you are in his criticism, no asking him why etc. Or say "YES I AM ALWAYS, LATE, I SHOULDN'T DO THIS TO YOU."

etc, NEVER EVER, PUT YOURSELF DOWN TO YOUR ABUSER.

3) Don't try fixing things later with idel chat. Trying to say nice things etc, to make things right.

4) Don't try to control your partner e.g By saying "Well I do xxx, so you should do xxxxxx."

5) Don't try to fix things by being needy. Like trying to sort things out with him, talk things over, or do nice actions to make peace. Or try buttering up to him, being over polite, over nice.

6) If you are treated poorly detach. LET THE ABUSER COME ZIPPING BACK TO YOU.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Julie,

YOU ARE ABUSIVE TOO. Don't take this as you are a bad person. Though you are abusive at times. MAINLY IN PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE WAYS, like you don't take care of yourself. (Anything you do that is not taking care of you, is abusive.)

This is why agreeing with the true part ONLY of criticisms helps.

(The truth is your emotional issues inside attract these experiences to help you learn the skills so there is usually a grain of truth in some things said to you. USE these to improve.)

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

LisaMM,

When you feel overwhelmed, like I do at times to when things go crazy, try these steps.

1) Do nothing, Say nothing, even if he is going crazy. (THIS ISN'T being passive. Leave the room. Tell him, "I am leaving the room etc, as we said in your last post to me."

2) Go away and think about how you feel. Go inside and find out what is truthful.

THIS IS THE NEXT STEP. I also if I feel anxious and don't want to do this straight away, only agree with the true part of his criticism. THEN if it gets even more crazy I do the above boundary setting. "I am leaving the room etc."

You ask about other women. Are these friends? Did he know them before? What are his motives? Are his motives to spite you? If they are to spite you, I would ignore him like you would a spoilt child?

I would however, make sure you have protected sex with your husband if you do have sex and when things have settled down, ask he gets a test done to check for transmitted diseases before you sleep with him unprotected again.

I would probably not sleep with him myself if he insists on having extra marital affairs. I would detach and get on with my life. If you detach he'll soon come zipping back.

Though don't lecture him about his extra marital affairs, don't give him the satisfaction.

The truth is he will act crazy (passive-aggressively) to spite you. Ignore this silly behaviour, like you would ignore a kids tantrums.

Take care, you sound like your doing great.

ALSO you ask how it is "We who have the problem" That is correct, however NOT THE SAME PROBLEM. You both have your own unhelpful behaviours, that disbenefit your relationship.

YOURS are trying to fix things, and taking the blame for everything, and people pleasing. Being needy at times, like for instance going to make peace when he treats you poorly etc. AS YOU SAY THE CO-DEPENDENT BEHAVIOURS YOU RECOGNISE YOU DO.

He on the other hand has a big problem accepting others are imperfect and that is okay. Dealing with his angry displays. And trying to run your life.

There are probably more issues you both have, and poor behaviours, but here are just a few above.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

LisaMM,

You are growing, and so aware. This shows in your post to JAY. Yes you can ramble, and why not, for so long you were told to SHUT UP. You were told your thoughts, views were not okay.

WELL here my dear, they are totally okay, acceptable and you can ramble to the cows come home, its your choice.

Accept you.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Dear L,

You know all the answers of how you need to behave, and what you need to change, are all hiden in your daily interactions with others.

When you look inside you really see how to heal. WELL DONE on being wise and looking at your self. OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE, YOU ARE COMING.

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

http://drirene.com/worth.htm REAL GOOD STUFF

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Dr Irene,

I am in need of some guidance:

In Jay's post the therapist said, " Your goal is to be able to love another and take care of yourself at the same time." RON also said this to me.

This is the bit I do not understand yet. Are you saying, is RON saying? "You take care of yourself and set limits and detach from poor behaviour, whilst being respectful to others and accepting them. And enjoying them, and having fun with them. So you accept the whole of them. (That doesn't mean you don't set limits on how they effect you) AND you accept yourself and behave respectfully, Further you can discuss mistakes and work on working together better."

IS this what you mean by the above quote????

Thanks Joanne

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Monday, June 18, 2001

GOOD NESS I was reading something whilst posting from a colleague called Joanne. I can't even get my name right.

The last post was from THERESSA, not Joanne as signed.

OOOPPPS I need to do one thing at a time. (NOT defensive, just recognizing)

Take care Theressa

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Monday, June 18, 2001

I hope you all can help me. I have been married for over 26 years. My husband has rages. He abandoned me, his mother and our 15 year old son in a 90 degree parking lot on Friday. We were 45 minutes from home and had no power steering or brakes. I wanted him to call AAA and he refused . He took off in the dangerous car and left us. I am so upset and hurt and mortified. he told me he wants to get a divorce, but will always love me. I can't leave...too many years together. there have been some happy time. I am in so much pain. Am I abused? Why would i stay with someone who hurts me so much/

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Anger problem probably,

Has he always had an anger problem? Does he have a lower tolerance for things when they go wrong?

Maybe for you it is comfortable and maybe it familiar. Though we need more information than a one off incident.

Is it a one off incident? Does your partner constantly blame you for things when they go wrong? Do you rely on him to sort out your problems?

Answer these first!!!

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Well, I'm a little out of the 'deep' today and surfacing up a bit. After a highly emotional charged weekend for me - no, I did not see or talk to him - I did alot of crying and talking to myself. I also walked at least 5 miles in our neighborhood. Now I wished I didn't live a minute away from him. I can see everything that goes on at his house. And the weird thing is - NO BODY ELSE is there. Dr. Psycho is home every night and there is no sign of others being there. Whatever!

I am doing alot better today. It was also a very hot weekend here in Sacramento, so I think I'd better start thinking about buying an air conditioner now that I am not going to settle for Dr. Psycho's old one that I was going to get such a deal on. I'd rather take care of that on my own then deal with him on any level for right now. I think that is why I am such pain -- I realize that I can't ever trust him - I feel betrayed -- and have been living in the denial of this whole crazymaking relationship. I can go on and on...but I won't for now.

I want to thank LisaMM, Becky and Theresa for your kind encouragement. Being down for as long as I am and was is no fun. However, for some reason, it feels OK. Its where I should be.

Love, Sharon

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Sharon,

Seven years ago, today, it stopped working for me. IT - was an addiction to alcohol and drugs, an addiction to a beautiful Chinese-American woman who was my wife , work addiction, being verbally and emotionally abusive and other addictions that robbed me of my soul.

My heart goes out to all of the posters who are in relationships with people who were like me, male or female.

Sharon, I will ask you a question that Robert Burney posits on his site: " How old do you FEEL, right now?" Where and when were these feelings of abandonment, betrayal and wrenching emptiness - first played out?

Go there, feel it...write about it. As Robert so aptly puts it: " We bring these actors and actresses into OUR LIVES to teach us what needs to be healed IN US."

If I don't get the lesson, the job of the UNIVERSE is to put it in front of me again.

It is my belief that as long as I was ACTIVELY using a substance or process to medicate/inhibit my feelings, I was unable to be present for an emotional, spiritual or physical relationship with ANYONE, including myself.

Here are my gifts in recovery:

Nadia Barker(my oldest) wrote:" Thanks for all the good advice. I think you are starting to get the hang of this Dad thing!"

Michael Barker (my son ) wrote: " Thank you for all of the knowledge you have given me. I know there is so much more where that came from, too."

Thank you,

- AA, CoDA, Al-Anon, Theressa, Jay, AJ, Becky, Sharon, Gordon, Trubble-trapped in Prince's bedroom, Asha, Dr. Irene,( my sponsors) Billie and Sal, Bill and Dr. Bob and most of all my higher power - GOD.

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Thank you for the last post. Very, very powerful message. Was that from you, Tim? It really got me thinking about all of the other actors and actresses that I've been close to that played a part of where I'm at today.

Of late, I feel old. I feel old and weary. My eyes look bad. Though my body is looking better since I've been walking 2-3 miles daily, my face looks weathered and aged. I look like my spirit has taken a beating -- though for some reason -- I'm willing to write and spew my guts out about my feelings. Usually they are tucked over there somewhere. I am crying here at work in my office when I feel like it. I'm letting it all out. Cleansing? Yes, I think so, and that's why I said in my last post "I'm where I should be."

Ironically, yesterday was the last weekend that our church uses a choir. Singing in my church's choir was my highlight for the week. So, I'm thinking of singing elsewhere -- maybe for the city. I will still attend church -- that's my highlight too -- but I thouroughly enjoyed singing in the choir. We start up again the last week in September.

Also ironically that's when it will come time to maybe have some contact from Dr. Psycho. We planned a 120-day no contact. We shall see. I have a feeling I will be healed by then -- however, that can only happen from the inside out. That is my plan for the summer -- I've given myself an 'emotional divorce decree' -- even if Dr. Psycho bashes our boundaries -- I have to remind myself 'no pain, no gain'. I am healing ever so slowly -- crying when I feel the need to really is helping. Weird but I've never done this before. I usually fight my feelings. Stay strong they say. Look tough. Act like you are happy. Sorry, but I can't do and pretend things don't bother me that these days. They do! I let another human being abuse me!

Love, Sharon

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Hi all, jay in a rather better state than when she last posted. So many posts....Sharon, you need to treat Dr Psycho like the plague...keep well away and possibly wear garlic. I think he is crazy. joking aside I think he has damaged your life enough and there just has to be a better life than that. I think the pain bit is to keep us from going back there - in anger you hit out and may engage but pain helps you withdraw - if that makes sense? Maybe if it is wrong thinking Dr Irene's blue pencil will help out.

lisa you are doing great and as for Theressa WOW>.......

Mel- don't stop posting if you feel challenged will you..?

As for me....well....I have had to take some serious down time and face things I didn't want to....I have been posting in GHU as I really needed a spiritual/Christian input for a bit and to be honest getting what was going on out was really hard.

Dr Irene would call it one of life's lessons...I think I should say this is not so much a lesson as a consequence...I let things get on top of me and overdosed. I didn't want to die and it was all about wanting to stop painful thoughts.

Then yesterday - I realised how many pills I have been taking....kind of on the basis of easing the pain...mostly sleeping pills but just one or two too many.....that kind of thing and I was in complete denial.....I would never in a million years have thought I could be addicted to anything........So I have had to do some facing up to that this is not anyone's fault. If I deal with things wrongly then that is my responsibility alone and had to admit there was an addiction to pills creeping up and taking a bigger hold than I wanted to admit.

Yeah so easy to say so much pain.. not so easy to say "how silly to add to your problems." The hospital just said 'you are basically okl but too much on your plate and you got help quickly.....he realisation came from me as I reached yesterday for a packet of pills.....How stupid and action was that. I rang a helpline and talked about whether it was an addiction and didn't like getting an offer to come in and talk about it...eg "yes you have a problem you need to sort out.

YUK I can't blame anyone for this one! It all seemed to the psychologist to stem from codependent behaviour. He told me that I had not said what I needed ...told him all about what I was doing /worried about everyone else ....I even left the hospital bed and left the hospital because I felt a nuisance.....I thought if I left it they would have it as they were so busy. I met the psychologist on the way out and explained,,, He just said 'and what about YOU>>>" Yet again the message "you are strong but stressed because life stressed you." The basic 'you are ok really message." - No further treatment required......

Well I may not like seeing it, but i did see what I needed to anyway.

Oh YUK I thought I was further on the road than this...Still not looking after me so much it shows!

YUK I hate having to say I am needy....just now saying anything else is a lie and as you say Dr Irene I do tell it straight.

i don't even know how this ties in with being in a catbox. I guess the lesson is that you have to always say to yourself 'what is in my best interests. and how do I get it positively?"

I just hope this time i did get to learn the lesson!

Theressa my dad also was ill and lost his job when I was 11. It was awful and I acted more like your sisters......I got so angry as I came from a relatively wealthy time to my mum buying stuff from jumble sales......I think I had the opposite reaction and still do. Don't think I am saying anything much profound here; just saying it struck me...jay - who will regret posting this as she will feel a fool but is going to anyway.

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here,

Yes, in some strange way the pain is propelling me to stay away. I don't want to give him the opportunity to bite me again. That is why I am feeling some things that are deep. I'm not fighting him anymore, by trying to explain away. He was the abuser - and I was the victim. However, I was the one who is being blamed for the demise of the relationship. And its not true!! Its just that he will never take responsibility for his provoking and crazymaking behavior. EVER! That's why I ended things almost a month ago. Even though we were not back together - we were - and I sealed the fate by ending the physical relationship because it just was not right. Everything finally ended -- including the passion between us -- because of too much 'unreal' behaviors -- nothing was meaningful coming from him. He was so very cold. So, I am hoping that the 120 day no contact will give ME the time to heal. I could give a hoot about whether or not he heals. He will be with his new victim in a matter of time walking in the neighborhood. He's 53 and his new chic will be in her mid-20's. That's what he's looking for!! A young naive sweet woman that he can control and destroy!

Hugs, Sharon

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Sharon,

Yup me.

Go here tonight...it's the whole cake Sharon deserves!

Corinthians 1-13

Hugs,

Tim B.

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Tim and Everyone,

I read through Robert Burney's site. That has been my saving grace lately. That is exactly how I have been coping lately. My inner children are various ages. When I feel powerless or scared I am 5 years old. When I feel silly or even stoic I am 8 years old. Now, I kept thinking that perhaps that because I have children that age that was what was triggering my responses until one day my husband was reading some downloads about narcissism out loud accusing me of being a narcissist. I have noticed this parroting thing he has been doing. If I say he is abusive then he says I am abusive, etc. He was laughing and humiliating me. I felt like he just stepped on my boundary line and violated me. He knew how important this was to me. I literally had a temper tantrum like I was 5 years old screaming "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!!!" Then it shocked me. I covered my mouth and ran around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to hide from myself. It hit me that I had bottled up so many feelings. Repressed my emotions for 25 years. When he did something that triggered them. I reacted like a scared powerless child. It even caused him to back down because it made him realize he just crossed a line that may have just sent me over the edge. I told him that he was responsible for his behavior but my reaction to it was my responsibility. I said, I just need to get away from you right now to sort out my feelings. He kept wanting to come over and hug me. I just said, "No, you stay away from me. I don't trust you. Go away." I was hysterical and my knees were trembling. I felt immediate remorse and guilt. I called my therapist and my priest. I was convinced I may have gone nuts or that evil just jumped in my body from my husband's body. (I overreacted) Both assured me I would be okay. I had never felt so much intense pain in my whole life. So, Robert Burney's website has really helped me. I highly recommend it. I am saving up to purchase his book. It has helped me get to that safe place inside.

Previously this year I went through some E.M.D.R. therapy I really had to watch myself. I came out of the FOG and denial. I had operated out of fear, guilt, and shame. I was frozen from a traumatic event in my childhood. I felt these intense emotions for the first time in 25 years. They came out in full force. I had no impulse control. I am like a child right now learning how to deal with these feelings. I can actually relate to how a 2 year old feels sometimes when they loose control. You really feel like you are going nuts or it scares you. But, as I learn to process the feelings. I am parenting my inner child. The codependent coping behaviors were not working any longer for me to cope with my abusive husband. I have to learn a new way to cope. I have taken my child by the hand on several occasions and said, "I believe in you. I am right here when you feel scared. If you need help I will call Linda (my therapist). I think we can do this together." Then I just sit in that pain. It's an incredible cleansing experience.

I have even had to apologize to my son because he was use to me being so passive (la la land basically) that when I try to assert my request they come out rather strong. He is so use to me backing down. He was really shocked at first. Now he understands that mom means business. As I learn to separate the behavior from the child I in both of us. I feel more calm inside and more confident in my parenting.

I am still growing up. I have always loved that phrase "It's never too late to have a happy childhood". Now I know why :)

LisaMM

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Hi Theressa,

My husband's "friend" was just recently made. I guess she is on his route (he delivers to her office). He had poured his heart out to her. She is giving him a shoulder to cry on. He says because I won't listen to him. I told him I would listen but that I did not have to agree. He just started this "friendship". I feel like he has one foot out the door. He had come to me the last couple of weeks professing his love for me and wanting to work to save our marriage. I explained I was working on me right now, and I advised him to work on himself. I just asked him "How can you say that you are working on your marriage when you have been putting your energy into this new "friend". All I hear from you is excuses and blame? I do not hear you accepting responsibility for your actions? He started refusing to talk to me unless I attend therapy with him. I told him I was not ready at this point. I really felt no need to go into his therapist office while he was in denial to convince he and his therapist that I was right. I knew I was right. Greg had to realize that what he did was abusive but he is in so much denial. I was still working on my issues. I requested he work on his. He has not backed his words up with actions. I told him that if he could give me a couple of more weeks then we could meet in counseling in the future. He felt like time was running out. He was demanding I go. When I chose not to attend after his demands. Up popped this "friend". He has said to me "If you do not love me then she will." I said, "Okay, I am sorry you have chosen to do this but I guess I will have to let you go." He gets mad and tells me all kinds of reasons that he feels justified in finding relations outside our marriage. I tell him "If you choose to put your energy into this "friend" that is your choice. I will not allow you to blame me for your choice. You will have to suffer the consequences of your choice." Well, that pretty much sends him back on to himself and scrambling for more rationalizations to hurl my way. He is getting frustrated because I won't accept his "stuff". He has said that now that I am angry (more like frustrated and assertive at times) is why he does not feel our marriage will work. Now, he claims there is too much water under the bridge. I told him "I am sorry you feel this way. Given my recent behavior which I felt was reacting from how you treated me so poorly this last year and then attempted to deny it happened. (victim-rage. I am over feeling victimized and now feel I am taking my power back) I believe people can change. I am willing to work on my "stuff". I hope you will forgive me someday. You know it was not all my fault our marriage failed. You have done some pretty hurtful things to me. I feel like you are getting exactly what you want. You are trying to make me angry so I will push you away. I am doing the best I can. I was attempting to establish boundaries but you flipped out. I have to protect myself at this time." I know in forgiving myself, in turn I will be forgiving him, and letting him go. I hope he will do what it takes to get help but I am accepting that this is his choice. If he chooses to go with this "friend" instead that is his problem. I explained this all to him. He just seems very determined to push me away then blame me for his actions. I keep just telling him to do what he needs to do. He says He knows that I love him but that I am protecting myself, and he just does not understand from what? I told him that I developed this 6th sense. I just "know in my heart" that I need some time and space. I told him if he could respect my need for time and space I could heal myself. I keep explaining that I can only do this. He can not push me to do this. The fact he keeps pushing me and denying he has a problem leads me to believe that he attended therapy and he has a band aid on his wounds. He has not done the work to do what it takes to step outside of himself to empathize with my feelings, and to trust me enough to heal myself, and find my way back to him. He needs to show me that I can trust him, and I learn to trust myself. I understand this girl "friend" is just a diversion to avoid dealing with his "stuff". He is still blaming me. That I am detaching from. I am still working on my stuff.

You know all this came to him recently when he realized he was going to court and going to suffer consequences for his actions. He turned up the heat to go to therapy (with him) I felt to turn it around and get me to admit that I was the problem not him. I tell him that we have separate problems that need to be worked on. He just doesn't want to hear it. Then, when he his old tactics did not work he went to passive aggressive. Now, he is crying and saying he has to "let me go" but then trying to still get me to say "It's my fault you had to leave". He does it in this manipulating fashion. He knows I can't stand to see someone cry. He is almost using reverse psychology on me. He knows from previous experience that cheating is a big sore spot (because he did it before and convinced me it was my fault.). As if I would go running back just to "win" him back. Now, I am saying "Well, if you choose to do that there's nothing I can do." I have to see if he zips or zags?

Oh, he did promise not to have sexual relations until after we divorce. He admitted is is an affair of the heart. He made a comment that it was not anything now but could be in the future. He said "If you won't love me then I will find someone that will." I told him "I wish you could love yourself enough so that you did not have to go outside our marriage."

He slipped that he told her he couldn't have sexual relations because he promised me. Again, a big question in my mind was how did it get to the point that he had to even have this conversation with his "friend"?

I know from previous experience not to trust him. He had to undergo testing every 6 months for a couple of years after he cheated (the first time, and only time I hope). I would love to believe he wouldn't do that again but he is also an alcoholic. Once you add alcohol forget it.

All I can do is hope he makes the right choices. I can't worry about what he chooses to do. I know it has nothing to do with me. He can choose to work on his marriage, problems, wounds, etc or he can choose to run from them. That's his choice. I wish him the best.

You know after what I have been through in the last couple of years. I just need time for myself if my marriage fails. I really can not see myself running out and jumping into another relationship. I don't have much to offer at this time. I am so beaten down and pretty needy. I am learning to just take care of myself. In fact, I am thinking I may just enjoy hanging out with myself alone. Now that I have tried it a couple of times. I am really starting to like myself.

I keep thinking of that song by Stevie Nicks "Landslide". Does anyone else know this song? It has a phrase "I was afraid of changing because I built my life around you...." I love that song. It brings me to tears everytime I hear it.

Hey, I am going to try going out to a movie all by myself. I have a good friend that recommend that I try this. She says it's really strange at first. I have never done that?

I did have the house to myself this weekend that was fun! My husband took the kids to amusement parks, and all this stuff to keep them busy. (his nickname is Disneyland Dad, *hee hee*) I cleaned my house until I could clean no more. Lit candles, and gave myself a pedicure. It's really kind of fun just hanging out all by myself. Now, I have never done that before.

Letting go is not easy....I am really hanging onto my faith that I will be able to strengthen my wings if I put my mind to it. I am really just hoping the big guy upstairs is there when I fall from grace.

O:) LisaMM

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Monday, June 18, 2001

Hi, All....

Haven't posted as much as in the early days of the Cat Box, but I do read. There is something different happening to me: I think I am finally, really letting go.

I think being so depressed and tired has a lot to with it: I can no longer be responsible for his stuff--it's killing me! So I have figuratively packed it all up--all the cynicism, hatefulness, anger, condemnation, insecurities--and handed it to him. He can throw it out or he can hold onto it; it's his choice.

I have told him , and meant it, that if he doesn't want to buckle down and work with me to renegotiate our marriage, he can get a divorce. I truly believe that he doesn't want that responsibility, but I'm willing to risk it. I am SO TIRED of being lured into feeling safe, then having the rug ripped out from under me. He MUST be combative, he knows nothing else! Trying to come to an understanding with him is an exercise in insanity--he just will not go there most of the time.

I can tell that the wheels in his head are turning. I hope he decides that he values his marriage more than he does his anger, but it is his choice. I am powerless over that. (BTW he tries awfully hard to make ME responsible for the choice he makes. I throw it right back at him).

I do backslide, still, and get into over explaining, and allowing him to bait me, but I am better at recognizing when I do that and stopping myself. When I look to the future things still appear fuzzy, but I'm making plans. I will continue working on my "junk," and looking into furthering my education. I WILL start exercising again (I need a PUSH in that department) and continue seeking out new friends.

I think I've made progress since coming to this site last summer, and for that I am so thankful!

Have a nice evening, everyone! Becky

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

what a little bit of recreational fun will do for you.

actually, today was the first day in probably more than 2 weeks where i have done what I have wanted to do. *yay! small victory for me!* its always been going over to shauns house at some point during the day -- and yes a part of me wanted to (a part of me still wants to) but i always had the niggling feeling that..."hey, im neglecting my family. my cousin. my gramma. my friends..." i felt my entire social circle diminishing, and it was scaring me but i felt powerless to stop it.

why? i didn't want to admit it to myself then, but i feel safer now : because, he let me know, in usually indirect or covert ways, that he'd be more than a little pissed if i decided to do 'whatever i wanted to do' just because i wanted to. no, the attention had to be showered on him. grrrr. and a resentful girl i became because of that. codependency works in strange ways. i wanted to be with him, yet i wanted to have the full freedom of doing my 'own thing' yet felt guilty for even wanting my 'own thing' apart from 'his thing' and so denied my thing to do his thing. thinking, hey, what a nice self-sacrificial martyr i am. and then resented him for it. as if he 'made' me decide to go with him. then i'd turn all passive-aggressive...which just screws things up.

passive-aggressiveness is a scary thing as well. no, strange. the anger you feel (and yes i have a hell of a lot of newly realized anger....bordering on rage....'victim' or 'codependent' rage they call it) is stuffed down because you've been taught (by whatever fucks you had as parents) <---see! lots of anger!! that anger is not ok at all. so it comes out "sideways" (i love that term.. it gives me a funny mental image), in sarcasm usually. or shutting down or withdrawing or leaving emotionally and/or physically. its not getting angry, its getting even without having to directly show your anger, which is perceived as a 'bad' emotion.

tell me, exactly, what is a 'bad' feeling? aren't feelings just feelings? are we supposed to not have them at all? repress, suppress, fester. that's where the rage comes from. but mine surfaced through depression, sarcasm, the aforementioned passive-aggressiveness. addictions. but im slowly coming to terms with my emotions. im actually realizing them, and as dr. Irene says to do ... "sit" with the feeling. don't react. don't do a thing. just realize that its there. that its ok to be there. why its there. what to do about it. but don't just react, which solves nothing and typically produces results worse than what was there before. (i know i do this quite a lot).

but im learning, and healing, slowly. its all a process. it took me a long time to even say 'verbal abuse' and 'father' in the same sentence. i didn't want to know it. it still makes me feel uneasy. but i can name the truth now. i can say 'yes, i was abused.' i'm not quite at the point of total forgiveness (i still have tons of resentment and anger). but i'm going to get there eventually. i have realized that it is possible. wow and what a process....i started to realize/understand verbal abuse when i was 15. im now 18. it took me a year to work up the courage to ask for a therapist. and i still dont go regularly.

and ive got a while to go yet, im sure many years before my entire system of reactionary ways of handling things, my skewed perceptions of self / others, my addictions (cigarettes, work, shaun...and sugar. yea its an addiction and a horrible one at that since im also hypoglycemic), and the like can be detoxified. but at least i can say im not crazy. i never went delusional. ive had mental breakdowns, and i still have anxiety attacks (not as bad as before and less frequently) but i never went over the edge. and i can't now, that im recognizing things. a mind that is sane knows it has a problem and takes problems to correct it. so i can rest assure im not insane.

an amazing thing: im beginning to realize my needs. they are many, since a bulk of them were unmet as a child. emotional mainly, but those are the hardest, in my opinion, to overcome. 'overcome'. no that's the wrong word. that is a pattern i have to get out of, thinking i can overcome my neediness for love/people. (had written things...but realized i needed to be specific). i tried, i ran a long, long time pretending i was independent and didn't need anything from anyone. im still uncomfortable receiving anything, especially money. then i swung the opposite direction and clung onto people (mainly significant others) for what i needed. shaun is a prime example, and ive fucked things over in that relationship.

i read that i can never, ever get these needs met. i was a child once, and never will be again. i will never get the emotional needs, the boundaries, etc from my parents. the window has passed. i have to grieve that loss. ive already started. it is not selfishness or self-pity, it is "sorrow for the self." a literal sorrow, i have to grieve what i will never have.

but before you think there is no hope...which is what i thought as i was reading this....i went on to read that you can look for mothering/fathering influences in your life. but to remember that people have boundaries too, and to not suck off of them what they are not able or willing to give. friends/other family members cannot be expected to parent you all over again the right way. that is asking too much of their time and energy and it is unfair to them. of course, the child in me kicks and screams and says "why not??!!??" but we have to learn to take what we can get and accept it and be ok with it. this is a hard thing to learn. especially when i just want to run, like a little child, up to those i look to most for guidance/support and just cling and never let go.

and i FEEL like a child. like im tasting life all over again. its very awe-inducing. i want to go play in the rain, and shop at toys 'r us and pick out my whatever i feel lilke picking out. i want to play. i want to play. i want to play. i did not get to play. i was forced out of my childhood. and im trying, albeit desperately, to relive it again before i have to really grow up. heh. :) i just want to enjoy life. that's all.

thought maybe those at the catbox may be encouraged or helped by what ive been realizing. HA and no i did not just come up with this...i was reading books on codependency by pia mellody and melody ???.... and things on verbal/emotional/intellectual/spiritual abuse. i didn't even know those existed, and ive gone through every one to varying degrees.

and of course, ive been reading the posts daily. ive been sitting and thinking. and im out of the relationship with shaun and i. its a daily struggle ... to not just go to his house, to not just call, or IM or e-mail. he is an addiction....grrrrr. and i may fall yet so.... thanks all for the encouragement, for the reality checks i didn't want to hear (at the time). thanks for caring & understanding. blessings and love, heather

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

Hi JAY,

YES WOW. Quarterbacks daily, learning lots. Learning all about my unhelpful co-dependent behaviours and working out how I got them, and why they don't help me anymore.

I was told last night by RON my therapist to count my blessings, and to see on balance what I had.

He explained Karma to me. When your actions predict your future. And how you can't have everything perfect, it is on balance you see your really okay.

e.g you can't be rich and poor at the same time. You can't be secure and insecure at the same time. You can't buy a lettuce for £1 aswell as an apple with the same £1. You can't live with freedom and peace of mind, at the same time as being a criminal.

Everyone has responsibilities even those who are homeless, or those who have loads of money.

The overall picture of oneself is more important in building self esteem than just looking at your faults.

AND FINALLY self esteem comes from within, Do I think I am doing my best that I can at this specific time? If not can I make any adjustments or change any behaviours that are not serving me any longer? IF I can say I am doing my best whilst at the same time working on any improvements that benefit me. THEN I have every reason to feel GOOD ABOUT ME.

So I can safely say to criticisers "WHO the hell are you to treat me like that" Lol

Who is worthy to judge me, and who am I worthy to judge??? The truth is I am not, and neither is anyone else. I just have to accept their choices, and it is up to each individual to look at their own behaviours/ways and decide if they want to improve in any way that benefits them.

I have had some terrific moments in the last two weeks. I've been able to hear criticisms and at times "Do nothing and just listen and then go away and see which buttons it pushed and question those buttons." THIS help me grow rapidly. And learn what not to do, and what to do.

Other times I've used the technique of only agreeing with the true part of a criticism.

I've seen first hand also what happens when I engage in a conflict, or try to defend myself. I've also seen the truth of my partner, his deep insecurities. THE way he blames others instead of admitting when he makes mistakes, the way he is defensive. I've seen how he uses fear and manipulation. And how he ups the stakes and control when I am resisting.

I've learnt how to detach, and have caught myself when I am about to be needy and fix things, be nice.

I've saw how I behave when I am nervous "Chatter on about others, and judge them. Or give praise and put myself down in one sentence. Also how I will praise me and at the same time put others down."

I have seen how I have behaved when I have felt inferior to my superiors at work, and I've seen the same behaviours when others seem to feel inferior to me. E.g when I talk about college my partner tries to put me down.

I feel now like I am watching a film, and seeing things I never saw before, and understanding how they helped me to survive but at the same time hurt me.

I have realised the assets GOD has given me. He really did give me all I need. SO I can't do DIY but GOD gave me the skills to use in paid work to earn money to pay someone to do the DIY.

To others he gave the skills to sell to others. ON BALANCE God really has done a good job of getting everything done one way or another.

It really isn't what your given that counts it is how you use what your given. STRATEGY, is better than strength.

One day there was a young man and an old man who had a job to do, which was to move a 100 logs from the middle of the road. The young man worked and sweated to get his 50 logs moved.

The old man sat down on a stump and looked up at the sunshine. Each time a person passed by the old man would say "Please will you pick up one log for me and move it out of the middle of the road". The people were pleased to help.

At the end of the day, the young man was sweating and tired and drained. The old man was smiling and not fatigued in the slightest. The young boy said to the old man. YOU ARE LAZY and cheated to get your logs moved.

The old man said a wise man uses the talents he has to get the job done. He uses the resources he has available. It isn't cheating it is using what you have to the best of your ability.

So some of us have academia skills, and some practical skills so we have all the resources we need to live a successful life, and earn a living.

It is not what you have, it is how you use it.

GOD made no mistakes, he gave everyone talents to run the earth and live happy lives. To earn a living and to contribute in one way or another.

OUR job is to see what we have and use it to live a fulfilling life.

Another parable:

A young girl went to school and felt so sad, she came home and said she had nothing to offer to the group of other children so she had no friends. She took sweets, balls, toys to school and still had no friends. THEN SHE WENT and sat on her wise old grandfathers lap.

She complained I have nothing to offer. HE said "Sure you do, look at me and give me a smile." the little girl gave the biggest beaming smile she could and he said "SO you have nothing to offer to make others see you contribute hey. Well what about that terrific smile?"

SO the next day that little girl went to school and when the children looked at her they saw her beaming smile. She continued this for the next day, and the children saw how this smile cheered them up. SO they came over and talked to the little girl and asked her to play.

She never again was without friends. She went home to her grandfather, the wisest man she knew and said "It worked" He said "Sure it worked you used your blessings/talents in the best way you could."

Take care Theressa

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

pearly28. I ASKED HIM TO LEAVE, HE DID, I TOLD HIM IT WAS A LITTLE MINI VACATION. 24 HOURS HAVE GONE BY PEACE......LONLINESS....... HAVE I CAUSED THE ABANDONMENT I ALWAYS FEARED THE MOST. NIGHTMARES HAVE HAUNTED ME FOR 26 YEARS ABOUT THIS MOMENT.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO ME, TO US? IS WANTING THE BROKEN MARRIAGE FIXED A SYMPTOM OF ABUSE? I LOVE HIM AND WANT HIM NEXT TO ME.....LOVING ME........RESPECTING ME. IS THAT ASKING TO MUCH? CAN I TAKE LESS? WILL I TAKE LESS?

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

LisaMM,

What part of Alcoholic/Sex Addict is so difficult to understand? Your post triggered a lot of emotions for me. I have been on both sides of this addict/co-addict, co-addict/addict equation.

Patrick Carnes is perhaps the best source for information on the subject of sex addiction. Yes. Excellent. Two selections: Contrary to Love: Helping the Sexual Addict and Out of the Shadows: Understanding Sexual Addiction..

Dealing with a sex addict IS the most crazy-making experience one can go through. I know, I was one and I married them too, twice.

It is much easier to detach from someone who is addicted to a substance rather than a process ( which IS sex addiction). Carnes discusses the distorted belief systems of both the addict and co-addict. In any case, until BOTH of these addictions are addressed by GREG, he is NOT AVAILABLE for you, his children or most importantly,. for his therapist. The addict is focused on ONE thing and one thing ONLY - protecting the supply. i.e., alcohol, drugs, work, the OBJECT of sexual gratification, gambling, etc. Hello, the lights are on, NOBODY is home.

I had each of those conversations with my wife, Jean Marie. I heard, " You made me do it!", " You're smothering me!", "You accuse me!", "I just need my space", " I didn't go to therapy because YOU were an alcoholic!" - (we make great targets), " He's part of my support group!" , "He means nothing to me!", " I'm not going to give up my right to be with other men!", " You will NEVER find out if I'm having an affair." - Hmmmm, what's the prize and pay-off here, for Tim?

I painfully and laboriously, came to understand that when I speak, the disease can't (won't) hear me and that when I listen, I hear the disease. What was I reenacting? Where did I have this experience of betrayal, abandonment, verbal and emotional abuse all the things that are described in Patricia Evans books - as little Tim?

WHY WOULD I KILL FOR SECOND BEST?

When I finally read "Secret Survivors" by E. Sue Blume all of it started to come together. Both Jean and I are survivors, of emotional and sexual incest. That is why we picked each other. The deal is : each of us must heal from within...that road less traveled.

I have this picture in my head of when I served with the 10th. Special Forces Group and made a night jump in the dead of winter at Fort Drum , NY - my A-Team trudged over 25 Km. in knee-deep snow, at -30 degrees with 90lb. rucks, full medical pack, weapons and ammo to meet some guy who was sitting in a tree...I was not alone. Nor, am I now.

Listen to Theressa.

Hugs,

Tim B.

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

eek it is Gremlins or Trubble.. just looking at the catbox when this email thing from my email I never knew it could do appeared telling me to check the site out! Giggle now I am totally confused cos I was on it anyway,, ,maybe Trubble is up to trix - or I have a ghost cat in my computer!!!!!!!!!! Trubble proclaims innocence! Meanwhile jay has been looking after Jay maybe a little too well today as all i got done was to play on the internet and now I have no supper ready.....had stuff to do and did not do it....but feel a lot better and Theressa rang so now I know what she sounds like! AJ still doesn't seem to have got back to the catbox so I emailed her today to say it could not be the Hoover.... now will this go through or is Dr Irene feeding Trubble fish head? jay Well, I sure don't feed him posts. I've dispatched Trubble and KittyKat to find out who is eating the posts. Top Secret Mission!

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

Dear all, Sharon here, Thanks Tim B. for the post and much insight. I'm still in a deep way, however, when I get home tonight I'll look up that Bible scripture. Saw Dr. Psycho on the way to work this morning on his bike looking smug. He saw me in my car. We didn't' wave or anything.

I am staying completely away and it is very, very, very hard. This 120-day no contact is a hard way to go, and I go in and out of how I deal with it. One minute its' OK - the next minute - its not OK. My emotions go up and down. Still not sleeping good- and my appetite is still weird, though a little better. I'm getting exhausted from the walks and the heat. But I look wonderful. Go figure. Been crying periodically. What kills me is thinking that he has someone else. That's what kills me. Though I have no proof that someone else is there at his house spending the night, it just makes me upset that there is. I feel so used by this man. And he has no personal ad in the newspaper any more. I find that very interesting.....so, does that mean that he did meet someone? Or, could it be that since our break up he is regrouping and grieving like myself, and he didn't renew his ad because he's not ready for someone now that our break up is final? Whatever he is doing, I realize that its none of my business any more. I will myself spinning in circles trying to figure all of this out. But calling and asking is out of the question. Been there in the past -- and will not go there again. Its not worth being bitten by him. The bottom line is that he's not worth my time, and yet I've spent so much emotion on this relationship. More energy has been used in the break up than the actual relationship. That's another story! Hugs, Sharon

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

Ok this is God, trubble or a gremlin.. I checked into the CatBox a while ago and my email thingy - actually an email thingy came up on the screen with an email telling me to check out the site! I can't even see how it can do that and finding myself relatively sane - Theressa I didn't sound off my head earlier did I am now totally intrigued to know how what and why...!!!!!!.

Not that I actually believe this post will go through......Trubble you eating them again? Yuk. Posts are too dry. I prefer Trout.

i tried all over the site and can't find anything that i hadn't already seen or that I thought was for me, in any particular way.......

One of life's hopefully solvable mysteries or maybe to be relegated to how when I was allowed to do the washing no matter how many pairs of socks I put together odd ones always came out......

Yeah feeling a lot better and Theressa I will get round to those parables and look out the spiritweb site...I do hope my last mention of my weird message board wasn't too off-putting - giggle I thought as i put the phone down what a weird thing to say!

Meanwhile I seem to have and entire rock band in HKK's room making some very strange sounds-never seen half the guys before but I assume they are from school! Better think about feeding it/them! Trubble thinks you should charge admission and feed them out of the proceeds.

Dr Irene given my mood to day I am thinking about the mood swing thing _ I think I have to get a little more insistent that my doc stops messing around with Yam creams and actually makes sure the hormonal stuff gets proper investigation.... You know, yam cream is a potent hormone. That can swing you all around...

Weird - since Sunday Jake has seemed more bearable and been distant; but seemed very polite and nice...mind you I haven't spoken to him much.. just seems on his best behaviour . Maybe it is because I can only focus on me for a bit? I don't even know if he knows what happened...I haven't told him but guess I will need to at some point......It is weird how when you notice something the temptation can get bigger as you fight.. guess what happens is that you learn to fight something bigger than it is so when it is allowed to go to size you have the strength (Is that total nonsense?)

I think you are right.. things do seem to come to us for the lessons we need to learn.....

Theressa - parenting button? do you know the more I think about that I am less sure what you mean.. do you mean look at why I didn't write the research; get over what I am frightened others think - or feel better about me? o-Or other????

Sharon. wear garlic to keep him away!!!!!!

Perdida - I will have to write back later to you I know there was stuff i wanted to say; but better feed the gang! jay

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

Oops! The first post did go through and then I sound mad as a hatter in the second! Mainly this is due I think and hope to typing error! Was typing fast and now they have all disappeared so I can't feed them anyway - leaving me with a mysterious smelling joy stick and a bizarre treat of a completely off the wall sounding reggae band (huh- why did they do that and then all just go out?) Giggle it would be nice to be that carefree I guess... Maybe they've been eating the posts?

Meantime something hit me. it was how judgmental of me I am of having anything other than a completely calm mood of me... Giggle! oops now HKK is here and I will have to post back again! jay

Tuesday, June 19, 2001

Now to try again-

OUCH! Now I am getting my brother in law lecturing me and being right......long story and boring but he just said something that made me react and then think 'that is sensible...about a saying he has' let it be waves in the sea." about putting what has happened in he past behind me,,, guess I had better listen; this BILL is the nice one I do respect and he is a pretty good guy...he is a bit younger than me but at one stage my mother in law actually told me I needed someone like him and not Jake! (Giggle - no way he is too young and I love his wife to bits - one of the nicest people I know). On the particular subject we were on he does have the expertise...actually never heard him tell me to DO anything before - only actually he was saying not to!

Back to what I was trying to say - about feelings and emotions. i just realised some really big buttons:

They are all to do with not feeling it is ok to get being/feeling right wrong at times. Like if someone else gets angry, I think that is just in the moment for them; but with me I get really cross with me for getting angry/depressed/over the top/too high/low/anxious etc., etc. - and if someone mentions it I start to feel such a failure. So I guess at root it is an emotional failure button and I do know where it all comes from-yukky parenting. Sounds like an irrational thought to me. The kind you pay attention to and clean up each and every time you notice yourself going there...

And so I marry a man who appears to be totally calm all the time and wonder why I feel constantly criticsed - not all Jake- but he can't even take someone raising their voice... actually thinks it didn't happen in HIS family - It did but I think he is so quietly spoken he thinks ordinary talking is shouting! He hasn't realised quite how loud compared to normal he is yet.

And he was constantly telling me I was shouting. I was speaking loudly I guess because if you spend a great part of your time with people who can't speak good English you have to be clear and you have to get your voice to carry if you run any kind of group: instead of thinking about that I go into the failure button about how awful to be so loud......

of course if it was someone else I would be thinking don't be so silly....but because it is me......... I am really hard on me...

I wish I knew how to be a little more forgiving of me. Ask yourself how you would think and feel if you were another person... I let things go with others easily- why not me.....Well I guess the anti Jake and then the daughter anger lasted a while- but the thing is, I felt guilty to be angry even if it was right. Ashamed even of justified anger and so I had to work on getting rid of it so I could look good in my own eyes...

On the other hand I don't always come off well in arguments, yet I know I have a certain ability to be calm and negotiate ..but if I lose it in a justified way I beat myself up........

With my brother in law I could say 'we disagree and you are right and accept straight talk with out a fight...I can from dr Irene - why don't they push my buttons in the same way?

something of the same skill...neither lose what they are feeling they want to say in fear of the other person. they both have boundaries and you can sense when you are near to crossing them. I just wish I had that skill. Jake has big boundaries in a way but they end up as brick walls. You could say to my brother in law "I disagree" and he disagrees back, but he is not going to hold it against you. i feel....you are still a person and if you don't get it, then he backs off...same with Dr Irene..... With Jake I feel in the wrong if I can't agree with him on everything. It pervades all issues and not one.

I don't know what my boundaries are. I do in certain situations. Shop keepers may not be rude to me.. I can effectively send something back in a shop and usually get my money back unless I decide it isn't worth it. Students knew always there were things I didn't tolerate-like templates in creches and they did get to know I would fail the ones I liked for bad practice.....that I would say in the end there was a limit on the time I would wait for work and eventually I learnt that I could say no to students who were disruptive.....

But around myself...those are all situations that have discussable and definable boundaries you can learn on a course...I can't do it. I think....HKK does stuff and I try to say "no" and he just does it anyway ,,,not a terrible kid and just a couple of things like he always tries Grrr to catch me posting here and read the post! I just spent five minutes in a stranglehold - all very friendly but I didn't want him reading ---it is a bit of a game at the moment I guess but I can't seem to do stuff like say no to helping out or if a friend says something rudely, I end up taking it. You take stuff from people you care about personally. The good news is the more you pay attention to this and notice it, you can stop it.

Good grief I am probably saying I am like the rest of the human race.....!!!!!!!! which proves the point - I am a failure because I can't set boundaries...... (giggle- this is so stupid...everyone can't get it right somewhere and I am not dying of it! plenty of people can't return food in restaurants and they could feel a failure for that..... ) See, another irrational thought! Silly stuff we believe for no good reason, other than it's what we were taught early on, and it's now a bad automatic, auto-pilot habit.

Giggle ....my first ever teaching practice in adult ed, I landed teaching consumer skills to a group of lads from the gas board... that was a lesson in boundaries and lunacy....They locked me in the classroom one week.... replies about what would you do if you bought a radio and it didn't work would be met with "we would take it apart, miss" and a detailed explanation of a million apparently taken apart newly bought radios - and then I found out the magic key: It was a boundary! You can laugh and joke but just don't treat the lesson right and I mention this to your employer and grr I was going to carry it through -- they turned, well, into humans if not angels...... Hehehehe....

That kind of key isn't the same with family so I guess i NEED TO FIND WHAT MY BOUNDARIES ARE.....So worried I will cross other people's boundaries I forget my own -or that I can decide on them.....

Ah well rambling again...sometimes this is a thought box rather than a cat box.....cats should have somewhere useful and good to sit and thing about thing!

jay -

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

I meant think about things! jay No you didn't. You meant "thing about thing."

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Tuesday, June 19, 2001

Jay,

It warms my heart to hear acceptance of one's own human-ness and imperfection.

The "Spirituality Of Imperfection", Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketcham

What separates ALL of us is Edging God Out...

Tim B. Bingo! Thanks Tim B.

Tuesday, June 19, 2001

This is my first time to enter this webpage. My mother has been mailing me this address for a long time.

My situation is I have been married for seven years. My relation ship with my husband is so awful. He can get my emotions so crazy, I end up in the corner hysterical in the fetal position. Brief run through of my weekend. He left with his paycheck and ran off for three days. Comes home broke and wanting to move out. Rent was late, so I had to take the bill money to pay the landlord. Today he lost his job and still has not packed his bags. He threatens to blow his head off in front of my five year old, which sends him to tears. I found out he has been cheating. I am a wreck. Please talk to me...... Pack his bags for him Lori. Glad you're here. Lori

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Wednesday, June 20, 2001

Dear Lori,

You need support! Can you stay with your mom for awhile, or with some other relative? Have you considered therapy? There is no way you should be trying to deal with this alone! If you are hysterical and in a fetal position, your health (emotional and physical) is being affected. Making threats to kill himself in front of your little child is sick and sadistic--it's child abuse! He needs to be held accountable for this!

Call the nearest domestic abuse shelter or the domestic abuse hotline (in your phone book). I know you are frightened and demoralized but for your and your child's sake, you should get away from this man. Take the time apart to educate yourself about abuse, to get an education, whatever you need to do to make yourself stronger. It's a long road, but you'll make it; just take a step at a time. Start by gathering some support.

Please read through this site and post as often as you feel the need to. Be sure to check out the message boards.

Please take care of yourself and your son. You are not alone, Lori. There are many of us in similar situations and we DO care, and want to offer you our support.

Becky

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Wednesday, June 20, 2001

Tim and Everyone,

I believe the hardest thing for me to understand is my own codependency. I have this extreme desire to "save" him. I keep thinking if I understand what drives the addiction then I can make it better. That's not true. Bingo! All I have been doing is getting in the way of the natural consequences and process. I really have been reading Robert Burney's site Good stuff. to find out that I had this desire to work out my unresolved issues. I am trying to go back into history and heal my abuser. It's not possible. I can only heal myself. Your codependent thinking is irrational. Read The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster and Regaining Control of Your Life .

I have been trying to surrender and let god take over. I have faith in Greg. I truly believe that under all the armor there is this truly magnificent human being. I have seen him. He is just detached from himSelf. I know because he does go every week to his therapy sessions even though he says "It's to understand why my wife is so scared of me. I think she is crazy." If I hold up a mirror to him he might hear himself and how he feels. He can not hear me (believe me I tried). He has to hear himself. He is responsible for his recovery. His defense mechanism's are just sooo much tougher than mine to break through. He endured much more physical abuse and emotional abuse for a longer period of time. In fact, His parents live around the corner. They are still the same. Mom is brain dead from putting up with his abuse for years. His adoptive father (healthy as a horse, has not worked since they married 25 years ago), was in prison for several years. He was busted for taking photos of young girls in his photo studio. He stopped physically abusing their mother (after the boys turned 18 and Greg popped him one day). He still emotionally abuses and control his mother. Greg just got in contact with his real father after 30 years and found out a lot of what was told to him as a child was all lies. He became a perfectionist and swore he would never be like his parents. We both said this. My husband tried to conceal what his adoptive father did but his behaviors are so odd and my body was picking up all kinds of intuitive warnings. So, here we are acting it all out again. My husband has been under a lot of stress and had a breakdown in January. We both triggered each other. I know he is just coping the best he can. He is lost in that dark hole. He needs to hit bottom and climb out. It's extremely difficult to watch him fall. I have a lot of survivor's guilt right now.

It all really started getting out of control when I entered therapy for my depression and to heal my wounds. I was raised by alcoholics and was sexually abused. I am making this journey across and I want to run back and save my family and him. I just can't. I am accepting that powerless feeling. It's my own process I guess fighting against reality, the universe, and god. I have good days and bad days.

I know in my heart that letting him go is the best thing for him. I love him. I am learning to separate the disease or illness from the person (Self/Ego). I can really tell when I am talking to his Ego and to his Self. It's really bizarre. I am very aware of my own. I am learning how to communicate better, be assertive, and not to personalize his behaviors. It's really helped me talk in a non-defensive way. He really appreciates it. I blamed him for my misery at times too. I was in my own pain and acted out at him. I felt powerless and worthless. He was not emotionally available to me either. I was reaching out and looking for mutual respect and forgiveness. All the time he pushed me away. The addictions had taken over. When he feels threatened by me, I have to be careful. I am aware he can harm me. He has not been physical and at this time he is aware I will take the necessary steps to protect myself. I just have to remember though that he is an adult not a child making choices. His disease is just taking over his rational thinking. He will eventually get healthier if he keeps attending therapy. I have a lot of faith in his therapist and in him. We were so enmeshed. I became healthier, let go, separated us, and he panicked. I know I will be okay now. He will do the same if and when he is ready. He is just not there yet.

I am really trying to get him to understand that we are separate people with separate problems. He can not help me or control me. I can not help him or control him. I let him know we are both broken pieces but if we each work on our "stuff" then we could heal as individuals. Then we can make it as a married couple. We just are working backwards right now. It's okay though. We have an obligation to do the best we can for our children. If we find out that it's not going to work as a married couple, then we can at least be two healthy single parents. I have presented it as a "win-win" situation.

I would be lying if I did not confess that I have my own addictions. I over-eat and I am codependent. I spun out of control after I could not keep the "Perfect" Wife, Mother, and Daughter, etc image up. My addictions, compulsive, and obsessive behaviors emerged. We had a family tragedy last year when my Uncle was arrested for Molesting children at an elementary school. It was a family secret for 25 years. I always had this guilt that someone else was getting hurt because our family did not do anything about it. I called the detectives and had him arrested when I found out he was hiding at my grandmother's. I knew it was our duty as citizen's to protect innocent children. Yes... My grandmother was not who I thought she was. My fantasy world came crashing down. I swear I just gave up one day because I felt like I was "waking up" and all the people I had always thought would protect me were not who I thought they were. I swear I kept feeling like it was a bad dream and I would wake up. My health deteriorated. I am on anti-depressants, cholesterol lowering pills, and Phentermine to curb the binges. I am attempting to just go with the flow, surrender, accept, and learn from it. I am trying to accept my imperfections and forgive all those who have hurt me. It's allowing me to forgive myself. And, you are accepting reality. Excellent!

My therapist says that it has been a lot to take in one year. I have had 3 family members in and out of the hospital or dying slowly. My Uncle arrested and the trial. Losing a relationship with my grandmother. I had my husband's shoulder injury (he was off work and on pain relievers) and his breakdown. Then now accepting he is an addict and abusive. He filed for divorce. My children are in therapy and have been acting out. I found out who my real friends were real quick. I am healing my wounds and accepting responsibility for myself. Blah.....We were both coping the best we could. It was just not working any longer.

Now that I have hit my bottom and working my way back up. Taking my power back little by little. My addiction to food has totally gone away. I am making healthier choices.

I don't know if it matters what the addiction is, by the way. It doesn't. It's all the same. Right. We are acting out our pain. We are detached from Self. We are using something or anything to medicate the pain. Even if that's another person, etc. I use to drink when I was a teenager and in my 20's. I stopped after I had children. We use to hold each other's head over the toilet when I was younger. We would drag each other in and take care of each other. Much like "Sid and Nancy". I can see how it would be easy to be in both position addict/co-addict. My husband is actually a codependent himself. I outgrew this need to drink and knew it was time to grow up when I became pregnant 9 years ago. I stayed home with the kids. Became the designated driver. I immediately started looking inside for strength. When I quit working I had to drop the "image" and material possessions. I kept thinking he would eventually outgrow this too? Then I kept waiting, and waiting...He grew up but never changed. I was making it too easy. Yep. I put his needs before mine. His Ego is just so much larger than life right now....in his head.

I am now taking control of my responsibility to mySelf. Big overhaul! I have started exercising, dolling myself up, creating more time for fun, and balancing work, home, kids. I am setting little goals. I am not telling anyone around me either. Just taking action. I know they will see the changes over time. It's starting to feel better already.

I am reading through all the previous Cat Box Boards for guidance and validation. In understanding myself, I can understand any addictions and human behavior. I think when we all know better we do better. It's great to see there are so many survivors!!!

:) Lisa You are in a wonderful space Lisa. I know it hurts, but, it's OK, it's real. Continue to feel what comes your way, without getting hung up and obsessing on it or acting out. When you do this, your ability to cope with life's junk gets better and better. In time, nothing can throw you...

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Wednesday, June 20, 2001

Hi Jay,

You sounded perfectly sane to me on the telephone yesterday. You also sounded like you were accepting the things you need to fix in yourself (Co-dependency bed!! You know what I mean!!)

We seemed to agree on lots of things, I really felt I got to know you.

As for the sites you have, I have only one thing to say to you: I think it is great that you have the message boards BUT and yes there is always a but.

I agree with the psychologist what are you doing for Jay??? Well one thing you are doing for Jay methinks, is you visit the catbox and use it to work on Jay. Though I know what the psychologist means as Ron said similar things to me.

When Jay is loving everyone else, providing message boards, answering posts, helping in her parenting groups, who is loving Jay?

Well I also think Jay is beginning to think about Jay maybe for the first time in her life (although there is a tinge of guilt when she says she is doing things for herself).

You do your writing class for Jay.

I guess what the psychologist means is self discipline. It is no harm Jay helping others BUT she has to first take care of her own life, (thy Self) and then if she has energy time left she can help others, or if there is a crisis she can help others.

Jay I think you hold a lot of guilt inside of you. You felt guilt when you couldn't answer posts when you were ill.

The message for Jay is "you do your best, you help when you can, no need to feel guilty when your ill, or have to do some things in your own life, as I said to you, you attract the lessons you need to learn. One of those lessons is that you can only do so much. And by improving your own life you improve those around you. You improve others lives by showing them a healthy example of which they can choose to follow or not. REMEMBER, "Actions shown speak a thousand words spoken."

Now on to your parenting button:

I sensed from you that a whole stack of disapproval is residing inside of you right now. It is like what happened to me at Christmas with that guy.

In the community, in my partners mind, in my families mind, I was always on a pedestal. They saw me as the GOOD LITTLE GIRL who never let them down. Who had strong values and wasn't like her friends that got used by men. I was in their eyes pure, I spoke of my sorrow when girls got used. I spoke of my annoyance at any sort of using, or bullying. I never strayed, I was always loyal, even when my partner was abusive to me. I stuck up for him.

Then what happened. I LET THEM all down. You see I wasn't so perfect, I let my self down they think. I ignored my values, I allowed myself to be used, and to use, I wasn't pure anymore, the sorrow was now for me. My loyalty was flawed in their eyes.

I felt cheap, angry and betrayed, and so did they.

SO how does this have anything to do with your parenting button???

Well Jay in her community was seen as trustworthy (she is still, despite all this), she was seen as someone with the right parenting skills, she was admired by parents through out her home town, she had it sorted out parenting. She was the envy of other parents who didn't have the parenting skills. SHE WAS A PILLAR FOR THE COMMUNITY on parenting.

Jay felt good about this, who wouldn't, her esteem was high, though it was all external. What do I mean by this??

Well for Jay she felt she looked the part, she showed the outward skills, but it was fragile, she feared failing, she feared being imperfect, she couldn't let the community down. she couldn't accept that Jay may or her family have anything in their lives that would reflect a BRIGHT shining torch on her family, that it would ever be under scrutiny.

Jay wa