Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

Back to Catbox 30

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, April 15, 2001

S1

Dear Jay,

good for you to look outside and get a Life. You deserve one and you'll have a great life, I am sure. And it will probably make things with Jake much easier, and know what, when he really sees you changing, he just might follow. I do believe in miracles. Did my cat arrive?

Perdida, I come from the Netherlands, and I am mostly very sloppy in writing and do not have a spelling check in English, hence the bad English and of course it is not my native tongue.. But thanks for the compliment that you had not noticed. Form you last post I get you really let go of you ex. It does sound different then the ones before. Hope you'll do fine after your vacation trip.

As for me, I am angry, again. It seems that when settle into a sort of nice routine with C, things start to go wrong again. I know I have to act now, in order not the let things get worse (how well we can advice others, and how hard it is to follow our own advice, isn't it?)

We had an appointment for either Saturday night or Sunday to have dinner together with special spring/Easter food. He wasn't sure he could make it on Saturday, so I said, no sweat (and feeling very good in saying it, I might add!), just call me in the afternoon whether you will come Saturday or Sunday. I was rather pleased with myself and went out Saturday morning to get the things for dinner and buy some Easter things and flowers. Then He dialed me on my Mobile phone, which wasn't on at the moment and left a message, asking me to call back. I did and he said some friends from Germany just called that they would be coming over so he would not be able to make it Saturday. I said, no problem, we agreed on either Saturday or Sunday anyway, so that's fine with me. Well, he said, I am not quite sure when they will leave, Sunday before or after dinner. I felt a little frustrated and said, well, I bought beautiful fresh fish and things (I am sure my tone of voice was not very nice). He then stated to say he didn't know they were coming and he did have other things to do and feeling sorry for himself and maybe the fish could wait until Monday. I just said , I'll hear what it will be then. He said he would call Sunday, very sweet voiced, apologetic. But still. After the phone call I cried and then got very mad at him. Thinking I should have said I wasn't there on Monday, so big deal. But I really felt bad. Partly because he just let me down, and I do know these friends are important to him, and he has been staying a lot with them when he felt real bad and they do come all the way from Germany. But either he did have a prior appointment and forgot, or he did not tell them he had an appointment with me and that makes it even worse.

I am not sure yet what to say when he calls today, I will just see how he handles things. But I am still mad at him. Am I too harsh No. He was rude. Stop discounting your anger! It is telling you that you were not treated OK! Pay attention! and should I consider the circumstances that he was just informed they would come a couple of hours before their arrival? Why couldn't he include you in their plans? But he could have said, I'd love to have you, but can make make an appointment for another weekend. He did not want to and that's what's bothering me. So I do want to talk about this and say what I feel, but am afraid of nagging again, of appearing too needy. But I do not think this is about neediness, cause if I would have known in advance I'd have been fine and done whatever I wanted to and not felt bad about it. It is just this last moments notice that get at me. Controlling??

Any input will be appreciated.

Love to all (Lynn, I will keep doing it, cause that is how I feel, and if Doc want to throw me out of the Catbox because if this, she may, but I hardly think she will :-)) Dear, dear AJ: You'd never get thrown out for this... though your spelling is another story! Giggle!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, April 15, 2001

S1

Dear Cats,

Asha, that list idea is a great idea. I've noticed that that hole gets filled real quick because I have this set of friends who have just taken a turn for the more intimate. I just came from a little outing in which I determined that there would be people into renting bikes, skates, going to films, bars and live music, and hiking in the local national park. All I have to do is suggest it!! Well, there's one thing that the ex was good for, when he was good, although only when HE did the suggesting, acting out when I suggested anything... but that's history now, isn't it. Anyway, that part was one of the things that I missed.

That was funny about your truck... I had a truck once... I think I have done that before too, but I think it was a Golden Retriever rather than the truck. Break up with a guy? Need something to hug? Golden Retriever Puppy! (or, of course, a kitten...)

AJ, I've had guys do that thing to me too, agree to do something and then something else comes up. I HATE that! You're not being needy, he was just plain RUDE! Unfortunately, I have never handled that situation very well, or at least, how I have handled it has always caused consternation in the partner. I usually demand to know, why doesn't he include me in these other plans if we're in a relationship and the relationship is important to him? Makes sense to me but the guys have usually resented it. In Monday morning quarterbacking, I think I would chill, seriously, no changing Easter Sunday to Easter Monday, maybe chill for a few days. I just think that if your relationship is important to him, it's his responsibility to figure out a way to accommodate his social obligations so that all of his friends, including and especially you, feel valued. If you are the friend who is expected to bend in the wind and take what he feels like scheduling in, then you have to assume that you're not that important to him, and I would feel perfectly comfortable pointing that out to him without any extra emotionality. But don't forget, YOU ARE NOT BEING NEEDY!!! HE WAS RUDE!!

It seems like the abuse comes in when you are made to feel like you are showing some character flaw or semi-illness, i.e. excessive neediness, when in fact he was just plain not polite. That book, "You Cant' say that to me" talked about how if we were as polite to our intimates as we are socially, verbal abuse would disappear. Maybe we should start a mass movement to demand simple good manners. That's an excellent idea!

"Love to all", heh heh heh,

Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, April 15, 2001

S1

Hi all, it's Tina again, Today is Easter. Hope everyone had a good one. I am missing my husband today really bad. He sent a basket of flowers yesterday and a basket for our dog for Easter. I had mixed feelings. It was cute and sad all at the same time. I just keep feeling this thing, I wish it could be different. I wish we could just connect fully. I wish he could see himself as I do so he would want to change. But he won't. Accept that. This is really hard. I am trying really hard to be strong. But I miss him but I also know that getting back together for life again won't work without change in behavior. This is so frustrating because I feel there is deep feeling between us. I don't think I really want to let go of him I just wanted him to treat me better and I couldn't get him to do that. I wanted to be appreciated and shown that. I wanted him to respectful of my feelings. I can't understand why he wouldn't want to. We're we just suppose to float along with just me tending to his every need and whim. Him with his money, me with mine, Separate everything. It just seemed to me that the man wanted to still be single but enjoy all the perks of marriage. I just keep feeling this empty sick feeling in my body. I just want to go to bed and stay there. I start my first day of work tomorrow after a 2 1/2 month lay up due to a car accident in February. I don't even feel like facing the day. But I have to. I am hurting. What does one do with all this hurt? How do you get on the other side of it? I am not doing very good. All his stuff is gone from my apartment. I told him to leave and he did. I guess he wanted to go too. It's hurts. I wanted him to change, he wouldn't. The flowers he sent, I thought now why can't he do these things when we are together for no reason other than to show me he loves me. I would have given 100 times back to him. Because I would have been so touched by that gesture. But no it always comes after I am gone. I hope he's happy. I will never be the same again. My life will never be the same. We did share a lot of good together. I wish we didn't hurt each other the way we have. I wish I could just cry this pain out and get it over with. Maybe it's me. Maybe I am the one who messed up here. I've been told I make big things out of little things. Maybe that is what I do with him. Anyway I am going to go to bed now. Thanks for listening. Happy Easter everyone. Tina

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, April 16, 2001

S1

Tina

I'm sorry you're hurting so much. I really wish you well. It's difficult to let go even when over the long run the relationship hurts more.

There is no reason, except an emotional one, to believe that his patterns will change without some tools/help. You can't make him change if he doesn't want to. But you can work on you.

I find it helps to make "conscious" choices and be realistic about consequences.

I know this isn't easy...

I really wish for you, someone who appreciates what you have to give, and is capable of giving back to you.

I think Dr. Irene has talked about just "sitting with" pain. I know for myself, I am easily capable of distorting and intensifying pain, and I've learned to control this quite a bit, though I have a long way to go. At times, I just let myself go through it, knowing that yes there is an end, and time does heal.

Here's another trick a friend taught me: Give yourself a hug - it feels good, really!

I really understand your disappointment, yet I can imagine C's dilemma as well. Could it have possibly been a boundary issue for him, in that he may not know how to assert that he had other plans?

Could you have invited his friends over with him for dinner? That would seem like a possible solution. Were you invited to be with his friends also? Ideally, he would have checked in with you first to see about dinner. If he was in the habit of doing this maybe you would feel more flexible or accommodating about this change of plans. His friends didn't give much advance notice, but ultimately it's up to him to assert his boundaries.

This reminds me a little of my pre-Xmas weekend issue when I was upset that Steve went out with a friend when I thought we had planned to spend time together. Had I felt that Steve was in the habit of normally checking with me around special events then there wouldn't have been a "button". So for me it wasn't about him seeing the friend, but about my feelings of hurt about not being considered.

Could it be something like that for you?

love "to all" :)

Asha And Love to FakeMommyAsha!

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, April 16, 2001

S1

Hi everyone, Hope you all had a good holiday. No sign of the cat yet, AJ but better call him Salmon if it is male. Not quite so sure about Salmonella though! Maybe it went by plane and not ferry!

AJ what I don't understand is why C couldn't have invited you over too? Why does he have to keep you apart from these Germans? Also maybe he should be paying for the dinner if the fish ends up in the cats.

Ron posted??? Theressa? Dr Irene if you could only be the therapist for our partners! If only Jake...

Perdida, Lynn, Asha and all the new people I am reading your posts; but I can't keep up! Now we have a catbox mansion. Giggle!

Bystander, It sounds like you need to look at what AA say and Dr Irene, I think you need to leave for your own sanity. What sanity? I know you have posted lots more on the message board. But I think that you won't be able to move on unless you put some distance between you and the situation with both your husband and daughter.

As for me.......Well, Here is what I did. Last week I made an appointment with the solicitor re divorce. Not wanting to go here into reasons; but there were some things I could stand no more as they affected our son. And YOU. It's OK if it affects just YOU.

Then Jake took HumanKatKid away to grandparents over Easter. Daughter staying with boyfriend. So I got on a ferry. I found you can do an overnight trip both ways to CAEN for less than £10!

This is $7.50. I think. So I went and looked round Normandy for a day all alone. Drank wine, ate what the French eat and went all over on a bus....It was FUN! And I realised I wasn't the only lone traveler. I am not so odd after all...I coped with buses; I saw what i wanted to see and I had a good time. Ahhh... good for you! I've always been in awe of how people living in Europe (my favorite continent), can change cultures just by going on a jaunt! How totally cool!

I even coped with an unpleasant individual who sat next to me too close on a bus. It was EASY to say loudly. Excuse me and move to a different seat. One time I would have doubted the individual was even offensive and been sure I was being unkind! :)

It was wonderful.

Then on the way back my car clutch went on the motorway roundabout.....I had to phone Jake and get him to join the breakdown service at 7 am. (Had no credit cards..) His mother amazingly told me that I was "a nuisance and should be in bed and she was off to church. (Gee, my mother in law can decide when I go to bed/wake up/eat??????? Drive car????) He learned from a Master.

She wouldn't get Jake AMAZING! and finally I said, "Would you please act like a normal human being...I am in danger here." Good for Jake, he rang the breakdown people etc and sorted it so I got rescued. He got abusive after that telling me I wanted to be independent (fair enough I should have joined the breakdown service; but I forgot about it.) Car is now 50 miles away...coped and stayed calm with ridiculous train journey due to messed up lines; getting to church still during the service. Lunch with friends and finding I had locked my key in the house.... Giggle! Did ya call mom-in-law to help?

WOW! I am really STRONG! I can cope on my own; well I can now the breakdown service is joined!) You bet!

Jake behaving confusingly. Bought me a present for Easter...polite/kind but knows I have the appointment with the divorce lawyer.......Gosh maybe I should keep putting the appointments off and keep them going I could have a really good life! No abuse! (This is a joke).

Dr Irene. I can't remember the therapist saying Jake was hopeless. But she did make the fridge bit clear. Guess I was just hoping for changes.......I don't CARE any more. Nothing is worse than a loveless relationship. Perhaps you said "hopeless," though I think it was her. No matter.

And I so like the new me! Just I guess I always hoped I could be who I was with Jake.... ah well.. watch this space....

Weird I seem on an emotional HIGH! JAY Get used to it.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, April 16, 2001

S1

Dear Tina,

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad. The pain will go away, it really will! Would it help to ask yourself if it hurts more now or if it hurt more when you were being abused? Ask yourself that and put it in perspective, and a few bad memories of the bad times might help. Keep a journal, including your dreams.

Try to appreciate the flowers as beautiful flowers and nothing more, because the message behind the sending is control. If the flowers made you miss the good times, your husband has succeeded in controlling you again. Let it make you mad!

I think Asha's list idea is great - make a list of all the things you have wanted to do or have and didn't do or buy for yourself, and do or get some of them!

That's great you're going back to work - is it an old job with old friends, or a new job with new possibilities?

As for me, I am trying not to sound like a cynical, angry, hardened tough cookie! (Grrrr! Men! - because I do still love the critters). Critters? Giggle! Last night I dreamed of a joyful loving reconciliation with my ex and woke up depressed, and only this minute connected the two. Anyway, my last thought for Tina is why don't you stay distant for a couple of months, maybe even ask for no contact for that period of time. You need the space to feel better. Many of the people on this site are working out their partnerships, and it can be done. It sounds like you love your husband enough to try. But, as Jay told me, it's only successful if BOTH partners are willing to participate and grow. I think your husband needs to feel your absence so he also can clear his head and do some serious reflection about what he needs to do to keep you. Don't be fooled by his easy willingness to move out - it was the line of least resistance and it put ALL the responsibility on you, which we all know is not where it belongs. He drove you away and he needs to come to realize that. Stay strong! It's tough but it is NOT hopeless! Just get out and enjoy your freedom!!

Asha, your advice to AJ was really great and I like how you sound so centered. I'll get there someday!

Love, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, April 16, 2001

S1

Hey Jay,

Caen sounded so great! The French eat well! That sounded like a really good time. Your email was so funny. I guess we can all see where Jake's problems come from! I'm so glad you took yourself out for a good time and found out you could have a terrific time!

Heck, I would MOVE to Caen...

Love, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, April 16, 2001

S1

Thank you Perdida and Asha for your advice. I think you are right about the absence. I know you are right. My husband told me on the phone last night he is filing for a divorce today. That hurts. The conversation started out nice but ended in disaster. This man really does not want to face anything he has done to me. Its always what I've done to him. I can't stand it. You were right about the flowers. It was an attempt to get me to take him back, to control. I told him I didn't have any quick fix answers for him. He keeps saying, "I don't know what to do" I've tried. In my mind he has not tried at all. I asked him "What have you tried?" He has no answers for me. I don't feel I should have to write the script for him. He's a grown man. I guess he is just going to have to lose me. As for my job I am returning to work after a car accident injury from February. I am a visiting nurse so it is interesting. I like it a lot. I am on lunch right now. This morning at work it felt like I've lost my confidence. I feel like strange in a strange land. I just don't feel good about myself. I feel guilty for hurting my husband so much , causing so much pain. I guess I am feeling it is all my fault. Same old trap. Well I've got to go for now. I'll check back later. Love Tina

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, April 16, 2001

S1

dear all, Sharon here. Hope everyone had a nice Easter. No real news on my home front, nothing real new on the Dr. Psycho page other than we saw each other on the weekend. He was nice and not at all weird. I told him the reason why I had been avoiding him all week was because every time we got together, he'd bring up old "junk". I told him that if he wanted to stay friends that he would have to stop the repeating behaviors of bringing up the past in a toxic way. He didn't behave inappropriate and we had a nice time together.

He knows I am dating other men, however, it is now the "unspoken word." He knows that if he crosses this boundary again by making inappropriate remarks about it that I will again distance myself. Its nice to be dating others, but not sleeping around. Its a nice balance for me to finally not be somebody's "girlfriend" these days because I am getting into my hobbies again and spending more time enjoying myself. I am getting lots of exercise too by walking almost an hour every day. I know that I will be finding the right man for me one day so I am doing all I can to make me very together. I can't believe that I was in such a toxic relationship those days and its weird to be able to talk to Dr. Psycho in a rationale way without being the emotional one. He thinks I've changed and its scary to him. He did not like the fact that I am getting a breast reduction this summer. (I have back problems from it) but Dr. Psycho does not *own* me anymore like he *thought* he did. He does not like the fact that he sees me with my friends walking our pets, riding bikes, etc. - so yes, sometimes its hard living in the same residential neighborhood with him, though interesting. He shared that its going to bug him when he sees me with another man. Oh well! He should have thought about that when I really wanted to have a real relationship with him - complete with trust, respect and health, but he couldn't step up to the plate. I have met so many nice men that now I am finding my heart opening and healing though *slowly* that I see him as just a man in my past. My question these days is this "what was the big passion for him?" Granted, I still think of the good stuff between us - but there was too much bad abuse and negativity to really outweigh feeling a terrific big *loss*. Loss of what? Only thing I can come up with is loss of my self esteem. If he ever came to me and said that he wanted to put this thing back together again I would tell him that he would need individual counseling for six months. What's neat is that he sees my changes from a distance and when the opportunity to talk to him is there, I make sure he knows something about me which denotes good things. I am taking care of myself - and he feels more fear now than ever. I am not responsible for that! I am responsible for my own happiness and I am making it happen! Thanks for letting me vent!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2001

S1

Dear Ahsa, Perdida, Jay and Dr. I.

Thanks for your answering my last post. It really helped me a lot, even though by the time I read the answers, I had already seen C. (time differences are nasty things some times). They really helped me get my perspective. He actually called me Sunday morning that his visitors had left and he was exhausted (they have a one-year old and he apparently ran all over the place (giggle). He came over as scheduled and I found it very hard to think of what to say, since everything came out as planned in the end anyway. And he came all sweet and wearing my favorite clothes and earring lalala (maybe someone was feeling a bit guilty???) So I did not brace the subject, but we managed to get into a conflict anyway! Apparently it was time for one.

We talked about friends of us (a mixed couple like us: he is Moroccan, she is Dutch) and how hard it was and C. said she should not help him, he has to find out for himself whether he wants to stay or not. And then we started talking about how I helped him too much (does this sound familiar) and that I should not have done that, but he agreed that it would have been a hard thing to do, especially since he got mad at me when I did not want to help. Good for him for seeing this! Then we came the the subject of our house, which he said, I never gave him the idea it was our house. I said I never thought of it in any other way until he started wanting a divorce and then, for my own sake I had to make it emotionally my house, I needed that safe haven for me. But, of course, I know you could understand the effect this had on an already insecure man... I started crying again and walked away to pull myself together. When returned I tried to explain, said I could no do good anyway, when I was talking about ‘us', or our house, He felt pressured, when I talk about my house, he feels left out. The after a while we hugged and sort of made up, but without the subject really being finished. It can't finish if you don't acknowledge having shut him out and without him acknowledging his insecurities and the irrational demands he makes of you. I said sorry for crying, he said sorry for not being able to handle my crying. I then pointed out that he did only seem to want my positive emotions, he wanted me to be ‘the sunshine of his life'. But that I was only human and had negative emotions too and had my own needs. After a while he agreed and said, you are right, maybe I picture you the way want you. Yes. The man has insight. But that does not mean that he will be able to drop his ideal image and appreciate a real person... He stayed over and was very warm and hugging and even though it took me a while to get in the same mood, it was ok in the end. He did give me enough space to get my bearings, he did not run (which is something) and neither did I. We had a nice breakfast and a day out, with him getting slightly mad at be for getting carsick from his driving style, Oh my... You don't live up to his standards again... But I just said, I can hardly do that on purpose, can I, and he seemed to realize that after all. Actually it was a nice day. That he does this at all is a problem because it creates a place where you are constantly defending yourself. Difficult way to live.

But in the evening, after he left, still the anger stays with me. Good. Like you said: why did he not even try to include me in plans with his friends, he does seem to live two lives: one with me, and another one as a sort of bachelor. And confusion about the house thing. I feel he may talk more about the financial part of sharing then the emotional one I am talking about, so I am seriously considering proposing a divorce to settle that one once and for all. Then he talked about visiting a girlfriend in Belgium, sort of off handed mentioning: oh I might visit such and such, I met her in Africa and I could visit her. Yeah, right. Sure he could, but I would not like that and I feel it is not something you do when you are in a relationship with someone. But apparently he feels the need to let me know he has other options. He is orchestrating your rejection by rejecting you first. How unnecessary! How silly! But that's for All these things together have me feeling quite mad and not wanting to see him for the time being. I just want to get away from him, but I also feel I should tell him these things, but do not know how to handle it. I think I want to write him a letter, to make sure I can tell it without being sidetracked and then just see what will happen. Do that. He may agree. But, don't get your hopes up; it's only a half measure. It won't change how he thinks and acts.

I must fight very hard not to let things like this give me the feeling that everything is lost. They are important issues and they should be addressed, but I really feel i need to learn not to let these issues run the entire show. It is part of the yo-yo pattern we used to be in: lalala when things go nice and run like hell when they don't and no where in between. I really want to change that, I do not want issues to get so out of proportion and then be buried way undressed until they pop up again. But I find this very hard to handle. It will make you sick. Physically and/or emotionally.

Lots of words again, and I did try to get a better grip on my spelling (;-). Giggle! Don't worry about the spelling AJ... Well, who said live was going to be easy, at least I know when I am angry now, I just have not found out how to actually use the anger in a positive way.

Lots of love and hugs to all. And Mackerel Trubble says hi to his real Daddy, cause I showed him the picture and he is sure now. He says he would really love to meet Real Daddy and could he please send and autographed picture until he is old enough to travel.......

Love, AJ

Oh no! Trubble just freaked! He's hoping Mom won't sock him with kitten support. He's having a trubbling time these days, but sends an autographed pix anyway...

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2001

S1

Dear Jay,

Lots of news to tell you have over these Easter holidays. I am so glad to hear you got a day of to go to Normandy. The story you tell about your mother in law is really hilarious and I can hardly believe it. Good for you to speak up (I'd liked to have seen her face when she finally got Jake!!) and good for you to finally have joined the breakdown service yourself. Be as independent as you can!!! But I do love this story and the way you tell it. You'll get there. Are you really filing for divorce now? I seem to remember you planned to before. Well, it does not matter, as long as you feel good.

Any news about jobs? Hope you will find something nice with a big fat salary very soon.

Oh, and can you get to Ostende in stead of to Caen, or is that much more expensive? We could meet there if you could, I could easily drive over. Would be nice to have dinner together and talk every once in a while. Don't get too specific about the logistics. Trubble may show up to picket.

Lots of love, AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2001

S1

Hi Dr Irene,

Those questions were from Ron my therapist. Although it was useful to know what you would suggest to my partner. Ooops! Can you please rewrite them and I'll re-answer? Just give me a bit more context.

Anyway, on Thursday I was having lots of car troubles, my partner rang me up to find out what was happening. I told him I didn't know, but I would ring the garage to find out. So I rang the garage, and then rang back my partner to tell him what the problem was. It seems that the local garage couldn't fix the problem, but recommended a bigger dealership would fix the problem.

This meant bigger problems, since it was now the Easter holidays, so all the garages would be shut up until Tuesday. Anyway, I was thinking through what I needed to do. WHEN my partner started telling me what I needed to do.

This felt yukky!!! Yes I was glad of some direction, but it was so codependent.

I should have been thinking for myself, shouldn't I Dr Irene?

I was happy to let him take over, THIS IS NOT OKAY IS IT?? It's absolutely OK if you know you could and have done it yourself.

Anyway, there was my partner saying "Oh I don't need this stress Theressa, I don't know what to suggest, the ball is in your court, your car, your problem, your responsibility, you sort it."

So I did, I arranged to leave the car until Tuesday at the local garage, and I worked out how I would get the car to the dealership. ALL BY MYSELF.

My partner then rang me up and offered me a lift home from work. WELL of course I said Yes since it was easier than getting a bus. Though he complained when we got home. He said "Theressa, cheers, do you ever say thank you, I came all the way to work to get you, I tried to help you sort out your car, and do you say thank you, NO! You never say thank you."

I said "Ok thanks".

He said "NO!! Theressa that isn't the point, the point is that you just expect, expect, and expect Your a taker, taker, taker, BUT it isn't gonna be OKAY this time around. Last time I worked, worked, worked and spent on this family, well I am not anymore, so think on, cuz I would rather be on my own than used."

I said "Used, who has used you, and why do you think I never give, I am always giving, I give in whatever way I am capable of, I can't give financially but I do give."

That night I cried and cried buckets fulls. I was so frustrated and angry. THEN I realised how confused I am about this give and take system and taking care of thy self.

SO HOPEFULLY SOMEONE HERE CAN HELP ME UNDERSTAND???

*So we learn to say NO when it isn't okay for us to do things?

*We have busy lives and so much to do, so we end up tired and don't feel like helping others, so if I help others I am not taking care of myself, SO HOW DO I HELP OTHERS?

*My partner has been working all week long hours. He asks me to make him a cuppa but I feel like not getting up yet. SHOULD I GET UP AND MAKE HIM A CUPPA?

*My partner always gets up and makes me a cuppa at his house, so should I be obliged to return the favour when he stays at my house?

*How do you feel motivated to give? I do not!!!

Thanks, all of you Theressa

YOU answer these Theressa.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2001

S1

Hi All,

JAY funny you bringing up about your car rescue problem. IT seems our partners are not aware of the concept of INDEPENDENT PEOPLE being able to cope independently but still able to ask for support in a crisis, or when we need further some help.

THE KEY WORD IS SUPPORT, and not do the whole job for us.

Oh well Jay good for you for GETTING A LIFE, YIPPEEEE!!! I think you finally got on the adventure of a lifetime, the one where WHAT EVER WILL BE WILL BE, but you can cope!!!

Take care and well done, you've come a long, long way. Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2001

S1

Hi All,

Theressa here!!

Well here is an update on the results of my Assertiveness regarding childminding as promised.

On Sunday day my sister asked me why I hadn't gone to Blackpool with my friends for the weekend. I said "Well with it being Easter and my dad's birthday party, I wouldn't want to be away from my family."

She said "Great stuff".

My partner said "You should of gone, you'd have had a lot of Fun."

I said "Yes I would have had lots of fun, but would have missed our little girl getting her Easter Eggs and my Dad's 50th which are much more important to me. And anyway who'd have looked after our child?"

He didn't respond.

Later on in the evening he had to nip out to deliver some Easter Eggs and he phoned me, and asked me to get a babysitter so we could go out. HE was originally going out alone.

Anyway I got a babysitter and had a lovely time. On the way home from the night out, one of the couples we were with starting to have a disagreement, ABOUT you guessed. CHILDCARE!!

She said to her partner "Do you know what bothers me it is your lack of consideration. It isn't that you go out with your friends, it is that you don't consider me. I am not like Fiona your friend's wife who never lets him out without her, but I do expect some consideration."

My partner remained quiet. Anyway the guy of the couple walked on home ahead, we walked the lady to her door. Then we linked and walked home. On the way we began to talk about how things are and child minding.

My partner said "Theressa it isn't the same anymore, it will take time to sort things out, lots of things have happened that have caused damage to us. It will take a few years to repair all of this. But we are starting! What bothers me Theressa is you going on about me going out. For the record, I don't mind you going out, and I hope you don't mind me going out. We need our own lives also, this was the trouble in the past, we were too enmeshed."

I said "Yes but can I ask you one question, would you mind our child if I went out."

He said "Yes! I would mind her, as long as you ask me, and let me decide for myself without demanding I mind her or trying to guilt me in to minding her by nagging. Though I don't like being told on the spur of the moment you are minding her. If I have plans then I obviously won't just change them cuz you demand I do. I have only a little time off so there are certain nights such as Thursday and Sunday afternoon I always go out. Though YES! I will mind her on another night such as a Friday, or Saturday as long as it doesn't interfere with work times, since If I need to go to work I can't mind her."

SO I said "SO you will mind her".

He said "Yes she is my child". Cool!

SO I GUESS it was the demanding he didn't like (BEING CONTROLLED) Nobody does!

I don't think I can expect him to be able to let me just get up on the spur of the moment and go out, since taking in to account his work hours, and the fact that we live in separate houses. SO I guess it will be not until we ever live together again if we do that I can expect this.

I think this is the best possible outcome. SO I can ask him if I plan to go out, to mind our child.

Though it seems I won't be able to just get up and go out at the drop of a hat. Nor would I be able to realistically expect him to mind her half the time I do, since he is at work a lot of the time.

I understand what my partner meant when he said his time is more limited since he has to work and he did say he understood that meant that I was left carrying more responsibility but he said "He couldn't help this, and nor could i, which is why he tries to compensate by paying when we go out and trying to give me a good time when we can go out together."

SO maybe as you said Dr Irene I have to accept what is possible and either live with it, or decide to get out.

FOR ME I think I will live with it. I feel much better now that we both heard each other out.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2001

S1

Dear Theressa,

This sounds great! You asked him outright would he mind your child and he said he would. And i do think you are right when you say he probably did not mind you demanding he would mind her, but would do it when asked. And of course, you want him to consider your needs, so it's only fair to consider his too. Good for you. This does sound really like progress. Yours cause you can see his point, his, cause he can talk to you about this and not stop at just saying no when pressured. Looks to me like you maybe had a little help, like in these friends arguing just about the same subject. These things sometimes help us to see issues more clear don't they.

It looks like you are actually starting to negotiate. Wish C. and me would be able to do that!

Love AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2001

S1

Does anyone know any good books for older teenagers who have verbally abusive relationship with their parents and need help? Most of the books on verbal/emotional abuse seem to deal more with the husband/wife perspective. Any suggestions?

Hi again Theressa and Ron! I feel silly! So, I'll be a good codependent (Giggle!) and repost the Q's (sans the compliments which make me blush) and answer therapist Ron now:

If a patient had an issue with getting her partner to help with minding their child:

I told Theressa to speak up Assertively, she said "Regardless of us, I expected you to sometimes mind "our" child out of principle." This I agreed with her. Me too. Excellent answer, I think.

What would you have suggested? Pretty much the same. Because she's new at assertion and is angry, I would ask her to pay close attention to her misbehaviors and exert self-control over them. I would suggest she role play with me and/or practice what (and how) she might say ahead of time. She will feel better about herself for behaving - and - she takes away one of the tools he has likely been using to divert from the topic at hand.

Further after speaking up assertively she got no response or help. This doesn't surprise me. Though I understand she was being demanding, he is likely to find "reasons" why he can't/won't comply. By the way, the excuses don't really wash, despite their semblance to reason. His anger over her demanding tone is greater than his desire to care for his child? Hmmmmm....

Then what would you suggest? That she learn to assert herself without acting out and without allowing herself to be sidetracked. (Accusing her of demanding-ness, while true, is the excuse that doesn't wash.) I would also advise her not to be defensive, to acknowledge any true accusations of her misbehavior, and quickly get back to the point. In other words, I would encourage her to perfect her skills, not only to have a better shot of attaining her goals, but for herSelf's sake: they directly counteract her dependency traits.

If I advise Theressa to just let it go then, how is she ever going to get this issue resolved? The issue will likely resolve as she becomes assertive and stops misbehaving. The issue will not resolve if there is underlying personality-type stuff going on inside him - and he will not or cannot cooperate. What sane choices other than letting go of the child care issue does she have?

I suspect that no matter how expert at assertion Theressa may become, her partner will find new and apparently reasonable ways to do as he pleases. But, as her acting out diminishes and her confusion (and it's associated self-blame) mitigate, the "Heads I win, Tails you lose" game he plays becomes clear to her. There is a shot at resolution when she is no longer willing to put up with his stuff / half-measures.

Her only sane option will be to back away from or leave the frustrating relationship entirely. Bolstered by increased self-confidence via the assertion skills, she is less needy and better able to back away or leave. Most, though not all, partners become desperate at this time and agree to their partner's demands to obtain help as a prerequisite to reconciliation.

Then the next set of stuff starts...

Thank you for your time. Ron. My pleasure. Irene.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Dr Irene

Is part of a typical "victim" mentality the feeling that we need to ask others for answers that we have inside - that maybe we don't trust our hunches the way we would if we weren't quite so concerned about others feelings? Precisely Watson.

I trust my perspective on other's situations, but in my own case I am more unsure (though getting better) and I really don't understand that.

Of course moral support is nice for anyone, but is it our deep desire for that support and understanding that makes us more vulnerable to abuse? Yes, in part.

I had an excellent test with a client scenario the other day. I made a mistake (not a huge one) and they wrote an extremely nasty email. My first reaction was to "buy into" what they had said. Then I really thought about what had happened and realized that the issue was actually very small, very easily fixed, and that most people would not have reacted so negatively.

I thought about that great post by Tim B. and the fact that their reaction had absolutely *nothing* to say about me, and everything to say about them. I was able to move from being upset and somewhat embarrassed to feeling perfectly okay. I apologized for the error (which was appropriate) but did not dwell in it, just reassured them that it was very fixable and there was no problem. In fact later I began to think how upset they must make themselves on a regular basis over small things. Purrrfect! You got it!

This is the kind of thing that I used to easily "feed" off of, but am learning to disregard and feel okay. Vision clears when you stop the automatic (often irrational) emotional knee jerk reaction.

thanks and don't worry Trubble, I don't think kitty support will be very expensive. You could also do a blood test, just to make sure you are the "RealDaddy". Giggle!

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

Thanks for your comments on my last post. I don't know what to think. I know I was wondering maybe I was egoistic in wanting the house ( but also thinking, damn it, I paid for most of it), and you seem to think I was. Was (and/or am) I mememe-ing? I am still struggling with this and will try to make an early appointment with my therapist to sort this out, before I talk to C. again. I really do not get it, I think. STOP! You are assuming too much blame. It is just a small bit of it to understand his reaction and/or to anticipate his emotional counter, not to excuse his mis-behavior. The only thing you are doing wrong is not thinking clearly because your emotions are in your way. Look at Asha's post above. You need to stop second guessing yourself. Also, look at what I wrote to Theressa's therapist Ron above.

---In my last post I wrote: I said I never thought of it (our house) in any other way until he started wanting a divorce and then, for my own sake I had to make it emotionally my house, I needed that safe haven for me. You answered wrote: But, of course, I know you could understand the effect this had on an already insecure man...------

To be honest, I think I never quite realised this. After all, he left me, he had an affair, he said he wanted to be independent and take care of himself. HE HAD AN AFFAIR!!! He can't have it both ways. Just stay with this line of thinking and do nothing (except see your therapist) until you are clear enough to do what Asha was able to do above: see clearly.

I did know important the house was for him, he always said that he had had two real houses, this one and the on he lived in when he was a child until 8 years old. I know I tried to use the house to control him, t.i. when he left, I talked about it still being our house, I kept it nice, for him even more then for me. When a friend came from Turkey March last year, he really wanted to show him the house and I made it as nice as possible, so he could be proud of it, and would miss it. Then I went to turkey in May, because of his sisters wedding (we had just decided to try to get things togethe again and he coudl not go to Turkey for reason I will not elaborate on). He decided to stay in our house and a week after I returned, he told me he had felt so closed in, and could not stay in the house and how he felt real bad about that. So I changed the house a little, and told him: OK, maybe in this way it will not remind you so much about the problems we had here. Then about a month later, he decided he could not handle things (he was seeing a therapist at the time and went really into he youth) and wanted a divorce, cause I felt not like a person worth fighting for anymore.

Then, and only then did I decide that I needed to make the house my own, I needed to feel it was ‘my' place instead of ‘our' place. It was, and still is difficult for me, cause there are still so many things that remind me of our living here together. I got rid of a lot of his stuff (i packed them, the boxes are still in the attic) and started trying to think about maybe selling the house and going to live somewhere else, cause it is quite big for just one person and three cats. So, that's the story. I do think I shut him out, knowingly, and I do find it extremely hard to let him in again, cause I do not really trust him. I do not understand what this house means to him: an insurance for old age, money or emotional value. Probably all three. He still pace part of the mortgage ( a small part, but the same part he always paid) When he was complaining about money, I once told him we might reconsider these payments, cause I had had a raise in salary, and I could easely afford the house on my own.

In our last conversation, he said he always thought, that when we were old we would sell the house and buy a house in Turkey and live there. I said, that was what I wanted too, still wanted that. That that was one of the reasons I wanted to have a house in the first place. He said, well you can still do that, I told him that would hardly be teh same, that I lost a future too. He seems to think my loss is the lesser, since I have a good job, and I live in ‘our' house and I have money (which I inherited from my family and isn't all that much). I feel the money part might be more important then the emotional part and that hurts. At the same time When we first started dating again I did not want him at home for the first month, it just felt too threatening. I knew, was he came there again, I would have a hard time feeling it was my house again. And now he is coming over regularly and I do have a hard time and I do feel it is ‘our' house, but I do not want to feel this, so I get angry at him for suggesting it, I feel I need to defend my space, and get all confused all over again, now that I am writing this.

You give him TOO MUCH benefit of the doubt at your own expense. Don't be surprised if you get used.

Dr. I, you always tell us to care for ourselves, to act, to show that certain actions have consequences. I thought I did the right thing, I even told C. in our last, things have consequences, that I cannot keep feeling the place I live in is ‘our' place, if he keeps telling me he wants to move. It only makes sense, when the money is the main issue, and it really hurts to think it might be. He always told me, I came with one suitcase, and if I leave, i will leave with one suitcase. I think he still wants he house to be his, to come back whenever he would want to, if ever. And I do feel he cares for me, but I am not sure whether in the end it will be enough to counteract the bad stuff.

Dr. I. , one other question, last summer he has been seeing a therapist. This man has said that he was no sure whether he could help him, goes with his past it was only logical he really had a lot of problems. He said he was really ill and that it would take a long time to heal. That he had to view the situation like having a broken leg and that he first needed to heal and then learn to walk again and that he (C.) was trying to run an marathon immediately. Then, after four sessions, it seems he has said C. was fine and did not need any more therapy. I never understood that, what can have happened? C made it real clear by his words and/or actions that he did not have a problem and /or he wanted no treatment. And do you think it might help to suggest further therapy (though I think he will not want it...) I think your only sane option is to get as far away as you can.

Love AJ

Trubble, I am very disappointed and I am not going show Mackerel the picture you send. Do not worry about kitten support, we (Mommy Cat and me) do not want ANYTHING from you, you cannot willingly give. Puh! And Mackerel is doing fine without you and found a Real Mommy to take care of him when he is ready to leave the house!!!!! You're probably not fit to be a Real Daddy anyway!!!! Yeah, I'm not fit. Phooey to youey! If you'd named him "Trubble" instead of "Mackerel Trubble" maybe I would have felt differently about being Daddy... It's all your fault. AJ: Trubble is very manipulative. Just because he's cute and furry and intends to do the right thing, he gets away with murder.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Dr Irene,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for replying to my therapist.

Dr Irene I am a little disappointed though, is there really no hope for my partner and me?? Not while things are as they are now.

Ron (my therapist) keeps telling me that he is just pulling you back under the water. He said It is like you are holding on to a life belt and he is tucking at it, if you let him take a hold of it to, he will pull you down.

Dr Irene I get so angry sometimes at Ron, he is always so pessimistic and when I mention the good bits, he seems to not see them.

Whereas I thought being positive and seeing the good bits is how we have a good life??

There a few things about Ron I have not felt right about, firstly his instance that I went out and met someone new and fumbled as he calls it, date and meet different guys. And his insistence that I not feel guilty about sleeping with these guys. WELL maybe I am naive, but I kept telling myself that RON says it is okay so it is okay. ISN'T this being even more co-dependent than I was with my partner?? Sort of, but not really. Ron is objective and is trying to point you in the right direction.

Then when I went back to therapy after all of these actions, I told Ron that I felt even worse, but he didn't seem to be alarmed, he said "it is all part of the process". He is right.

Secondly, Ron insists on telling me that my partner is no good for me. He seems always to see the negatives. For good reason: it is real, though you seem to prefer denial. AND we all know what happens if you "always" focus on the negatives!! What you pay attention to grows.

Thirdly Ron doesn't listen to me when I am telling him, I have been assertive and spoken up about an issue, but I can't force my partner to comply. RON replies but you must if it bothers you. He is correct. He is telling you to open your mouth, not to make him comply. There is a difference.

How do I do this? I can't beat him with a stick and force him. RON doesn't seem to understand I can't force others to comply!!

Finally leaves our session saying YOU MUST do something about this problem, talk to your partner.

Dr Irene maybe it is me but I feel controlled by RON my therapist at times as if he is leading me on a lead, and I must do as he says. IS THIS THE WAY A THERAPIST SHOULD BE???? Ron isn't doing this Theressa. You are. That is one of the issues you have to resolve.

I am not disputing Ron has my best interests at heart, but should his goal be to make me HATE my partner?? His goal is to teach you to take care of yourSelf, and now I understand why he wrote me.

Should it be to cause more conflict??

I seem to end up in conflict each time I do what Ron says, like with dating other guys. Like when I speak up about issues. IT seems things get worse.

Why is this?? Because you are in tons of denial over things that really, really hurt. Ron asks you to face it. You don't want to, nor do you take responsibility for yourself. You dump the responsibility for your life on Ron - and then you question Ron's ability to help you. Oh the messy webs we weave.... You are doing all of this Theressa.

Aren't I suppose to feel better after therapy??

Why Dr Irene do you and Ron think I only have the option of getting away from my partner??? I would like you to answer this one.

Is the goal to grow strong just to leave?? Answer this one too. All the info you need is already on this page.

Thanks Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Hi All,

Dr Irene told me I should answer my own questions, so here goes:

*So we learn to say NO when it isn't okay for us to do things?

Yes! But we also need to ask yourself why we are saying No! Is it to do with something else that has happened that we are Acting out and trying to get back at this person?

If we are angry about something maybe it is better to speak up assertively, and then look for alternatives if the help isn't forthcoming.

*We have busy lives and so much to do, so we end up tired and don't feel like helping others, so if I help others I am not taking care of myself, SO HOW DO I HELP OTHERS?

If there is no underlying reason (ie anger about something else) as above, then maybe there is another reason why I do not feel like helping?

It could be I am not making an effort to be caring, or it could be that I feel controlled.

Feeling controlled is the most likely, since when my partner tells me to do something I Feel Angry and want to say NO.

Maybe the solution is that I do some things spontaneously and enjoy doing them, when I was a child I loved surprising others, but when I started to learn about ABUSE I thought it was wrong to GIVE since I was giving too much.

Maybe it is balance I need. So YES maybe it is okay to give and feel good. Perhaps I got confussed about GIVING and people pleasing.

This I think is correct! There is giving out of joy and care. And there is being PASSIVE and never making a conscious choice to take what you need,

An example of this is when I don't inform my partner, so through my passiveness I end up losing out and end up receiving anger from others.

SO MAYBE the answer is that GIVING is not the same as people pleasing. People pleasing is when you are passive and don't inform, therefore you never get what you NEED. giving is when you want to show care and love.

*My partner has been working all week long hours. He asks me to make him a cuppa but I feel like not getting up yet. SHOULD I GET UP AND MAKE HIM A CUPPA?

Why do I not feel like getting up, is it because I feel that I shouldn't have to help him. NO! I shouldn't have to! But I can out of care if I want to.

*My partner always gets up and makes me a cuppa at his house, so should I be obliged to return the favour when he stays at my house?

It is nice to care for others, it is the motivation that is the problem. Am i not helping because of my anger? Is this another form of acting out.

I think it is another form of Acting out my anger. TIME TO STOP THIS BAD HABIT.

*How do you feel motivated to give? I do not!!!

You feel motivated when you give out of care for another, and stop using not giving as a form of acting out.

DR IRENE how did I do is this advise OKAY???

Thanks Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Theressa

I think your advice is great!

Also I don't think that Dr Irene is saying there is no hope for your partner and you - I think she is just telling you what your "sane" options are.

You *can't* control your partner, and trying is *not* a sane choice.

What she is saying, I think, is that your partner has to be motivated from within to make the changes necessary to have a healthy relationship - it can't come from *you*.

He may or may not make those changes. In the meantime you need to decide for *yourself* what consitutes a healthy relationship. Being angry and hurt most of the time is *not* healthy.

What can you do for *you* right now?

On another note...

When you mentioned being passive it struck a chord with me. I notice that I can sometimes procrastinate or waste time and then feel uncomfortable about it later. It's almost as if, when we are in this mode, we are letting life steer us, instead of taking charge of our lives. There is Self care, which sometimes *does* mean doing nothing... but then there is self sabotage which sometimes is the result of procrastination or lack of structure.

What I have noticed is that when my energy goes to hurtful or stressful things I start to have less structure in my life and things get overwhelming. I wonder if this is a form of depression.

When my house is clean and well maintained, when I have good social outlets and have accomplished the tasks I set out to do, I feel pretty good. I guess it makes sense then, for my own self esteem to do these things. It seems perfectly logical, yet if I "zone out" and let hours pass by it feels good (or maybe just "comfortable"... hmmm...) at the time. It's later that it occurs to me that I could have used that time more constructively.

I think it's to do with balance where structure doesn't overtake you, nor does lack of structure... a nice balance where things are not falling apart around you, but you can still take time to smell the roses.

BTW - spring is here! Tulips are popping up in the garden - nice smells everywhere! I spent time playing in my garden on the weekend (I feel like a little kid, sitting in the dirt with big overalls hehe) and realized that that is one of the better therapies for me!

take care

Asha

p.s. Trubble - I think you could at least show the decency to send your son a few cans of tuna!

Hisssssss! FakeMommyAkasha!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Dear AJ. I can't email you just now 'cos my computer is having a nervous breakdown, and it will only let me into my son's part! I can't even use his email as it has disappeared....Need son to reappear home to find out why there is this strange state of things. He probably did SOMETHING! ??What? Other question is is son at friends house to avoid wrath of mother as he messed the computer up again??????

I am planning my revenge....any ideas? Earlier on I met him in town. I had a cappuccino with a lot of froth on and he put some white chewing gum on my hand and I of course thought it was froth.....YUK!

Guess I must be a lovely mummy to have laughed.....AAArgh whole cafe laughing!!!!!! Giggle!

I can get to Ostende, I think. But I need to check if it is from Dover only or I can do it from Southampton. Certainly Le Havre is pretty near if I take the car. I did go to Ostende about a year ago. The children agreed to go to France ONLY if they also went to a different country. We went to McDonalds...and that was it!

Well, I did go to the divorce solicitor. She talked me out of it for now! Said if I wanted to go ahead she would fight tooth and nail; but she has seen one too many judges come down on the side of the parent who had not been in hospital....She suggests waiting until HumanKatKid is older and also dies laughing as I told her about the banana custard. However if Jake makes one move, violent or one more accusation I am ill With this level of empowerment, he won't dare!, she will act and so will my doctor. BOTH say the same as Dr Irene.....I AM STRONG! I will just concentrate on being my own person.

The Solicitor seems really to have liked Humankatkid. She wrote a letter for him...

And I just got tested on that at a writers group. There is a woman in a group I attend who makes my skin CRAWL. This is because she is just pretentious and I think also there is some professional jealousy. She paid to get published. I didn't. (Giggle, I don't think something in the window cleaner's magazine is exactly fame!) Well, now you know better.

Anyway this woman butted in on my reading. Perfectly OK by me. SHE decided she had offended Me and walked off. I sat there calmly saying I really hadn't a problem and if others wanted me to stop I was quite happy. YOU KNOW WHAT? I REALLY DID KNOW IT WAS NOT MY PROBLEM! Last week this woman tried to put me down as well. Rest of group handled it well. I just thought, "Oh well." On the day I went to the divorce lawyer I sit here calmly not worrying what everyone is thinking! (Of course what nobody but me knew was that my writing teacher has already said I should develop this particular bit of work.

SO I WASN'T CONTROLLED BY A CONTROL FREAK.......

Also I had a really good conversation with my doctor yesterday. It was puzzling in a way. I went as the locum got worried about the sleeping pills he prescribed and partly I said I would to keep what I thought was a new young doctor's mind at rest! The Dr. Said; She will get a specialist if Jake questions my sanity any more and ALSO she BELIEVES me about the abuse. I am not the only woman visiting where the husband has control issues.....Then she handed me a prescription for yet more sleeping pills. This was puzzling as I just said I can't keep on taking them. She insisted I took the prescription! Also produced a letter from my psychologist which seemed to say I was pleasant. calm, good eye contact and should be returning to work with parents....(The psychologist knew the whole story about my daughter, Dr Irene.) Yes.

Giggle. I also realised the mistaken section is NOT in my doctor's notes! They sent the stuff to me instead! I guess they were afraid of a lawsuit! Giggle!!!

The Dr knew as I told her; but she wasn't following that up as she AGREES the seroxat was the problem.

So now I have PROOF of my sanity and Jake will have to shut up or he can make banana custard until the mad cows come home. Oh yeah, Trubble has a present for you here!

GIGGLE; I made rhubarb crumble and told Jake this. He STILL made banana custard as well!

Maybe it IS because he is addicted to bananas as he ate the crumble too.

I still feel kite high and I don't know why. Maybe it is just I now know where I stand, and also there is a lot of new stuff I am starting to do. Like the teaching next week. My car is still in the garage 50 miles away.....

Maybe I just stopped judging myself. Maybe I just realised how safe Jay can keep Jay. *Meow!* It feels like a total character change in a way; but I am not saying it is all ups. I have felt like raging at all the injustice still, felt upset, had thoughts go haywire; but it all seems just part of being. Jake CAN'T abuse me any more as there is no more of the bit of me he could hook into. As a result it is all a lot more peaceful.

I did ask a lot of people to pray for a miracle and I do believe there is a God and maybe I was looking for the wrong miracle?

BTW Trubble, I can't work out what you are saying no to! It's *Me* and I am saying "No" to the unjust, unfair accusations that I am Makerel's RealDaddy and that they want to take all my Trout and Salmon away from me for kitten support. What's wrong with you AuntieJay? Why aren't you anticipating me any more? I liked you better before. Love, your adoring Trubble, who misses you terribly.

I will look at the posts tomorrow. This may sound selfish; but you see the old Jay would have felt obliged to look at all the posts and reply. I do want to but I am practicing looking after me by deciding it is bedtime and I am going to do that in the morning! Not selfish Jay. Self caring! Yippeee!

But I am thinking of you all. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Dear Trubble,

There is more than one kitten and all kittens have to grow into cats and I think you will have to pay kitten support for them all. I am sure you have too much Trout and it won't hurt you to part with some. Prove it! There is no Trout in my name. In case AJ's Mummy cat has difficulties, I will start a special web site for cats who can't get support from their spouses. I will write a website on abused FakeDaddyCats after I sue you for defamation of cat. I am also writing you a parenting programme for when you face your responsibilities. I don't have to. I'm a Cat! I didn't think you were really at the Whitehouse all the time Yes I was. and I think going to see Lynn and Dan didn't happen as often as you said it did! They lie! When are you going to make an honest woman of AJ's cat???? Huh? Can we come to the wedding and we all promise to bring presents of Salmon and Trout. Tell you what: Just send the fish to Makerel and we'll call it even. OK? Just skip the rest of it. We will send an invite to RealDaddy for you. jay Yuk AuntieJay. Yuk. This is War: The US against Europe. You and AJ have been chomping on too many mad cows in France! After all I did for you, and this is the thanks I get. Oh, woe is me-ouuccch!

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox, Dr. Irene, and Trubble:

I am so confused as to what to do. I am in recovery from an abusive relationship. For four months, my ex verbally and emotionally abused me, as a means of sheepishly backing out of our relationship after I had agreed to give her the commitment she wanted. As you can imagine, it was a long hard road out, possibly because I spent the whole time wondering why she suddenly changed so much. So this is where I stand: I do not contact her, I do not pursue. I let her go her own way. But...she can't stay away from me. While she insists she does not want a relationship, she still expects me to "be there" when she's had a bad day, when she's lonely, when she needs someone to talk to. She calls and calls. But only on bad days, of course. After noticing the pattern, I told her that I was getting nothing out of this, that she ended the relationship in a very cruel and inconsiderate way, and now I'm expected to be an emotional pillow when she's upset. She gets angry. Sometimes, she calls and says flirtatious things. I respond, and she goes silent, or gets angry. I keep thinking she wants to rekindle, but I do not trust it. I think she's only reeling me in for "narcissistic supply". She wants to see me, as she'll be stopping in town soon. I really cannot for the life of me think of a reason why I should, and yet, I somehow cannot bring the hammer down. She does not want me, but she doesn't want anyone else to have me...it goes on and on... Somewhere in there, I still think the kind person I *used* to know is still in there, wanting to come out. But I don't know if I'm kidding myself. I think this person is using me for emotional support, while giving none in return. She gets angry, thinks I should be able to go from being her fiancée to being a "buddy" in no time at all, and criticizes me because I'm not willing to be "friends". (Being friends to her means running errands with her while she raves about all the guys she has crushes on, and tells me how I'm not her type...) She does not understand how I can't be friends with someone who constantly belittled me, lied to me, hurt me very deeply. Believe me, I went through the whole "you're too sensitive" thing, girls...including the dreaded "you feel too much". I feel guilt. Unearned guilt, I know, but I need some advice as to how to get rid of that irrational guilt for standing up for my own feelings, and sticking by them. Perhaps I care for a person who no longer exists???? Perhaps all too typical a situation, but I still hesitate; I have been trained over the last six months not to trust my gut, and I'm still coming out of the woods. XX.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Have just spent the last 5 minutes with Jake convinced I really AM insane as I couldn't stop giggling at Trubble's present! I am going to print it out and show it to my doctor as I think she deserves a laugh too. Thanks and to FakeMommy too who must have helped. Nope. I did it *Myself*, with my very own furry little paws.

Guess I will forgive Trubble for messing up with AJ's cat. We are allowed to make mistakes. But personal responsibility not for cats???? NOOOOOOOOOOO it is in the cat manual. But mainly cats are responsible for looking furry and sweet and raiding dustbin (ok garbage bins). Trubble? I think you better get that blood test anyway, quick! I can't afford the law suit anyway, so I will skip the website for now! Hehehe

I will be your favourite Auntie still as long as you promise that if Mackerel is ever in need of finding you you won't turn him away and you will fund his entry to an exclusive school at the right age. *I* promise you the world! All is forgiven AuntieJay.

Oh boy...Jake just told me his "secretaries"? there is only one as far as I know. Have asked me not to ring as I am rude to them. Actually they are rude to me and I just said please can you pass this message on. He just HAD to try something spiteful as I am not talking to him...........However, as I have no intention of ringing him at work this is a non issue. I just refuse to be messed with any more. Giggle. Giggle! Told Jake I will complain to his boss if I have any more rudeness from his secretaries. CALMLY! Yep I AM empowered. Just tell me if I pass from empowerment to power crazy. OK.

Giggle. What it is really about is that I just took HumanKatKid his breakfast and said I would wash my own plate! !

It can't have been mad cows, Trubble cos I know AJ is a vegetarian as we have eaten together. Actually we ate in the cafe where my daughter decided, at about 5 years, she would never go to University! I took her there one May morning (Everyone with no sense gets up at about 3 am to hear singing on a bridge and generally goes mad with a champagne breakfast.) Daughter said as we were having out breakfast she wouldn't go to University, and she didn't want to get drunk like the students!

This empowerment stuff is addictive! love, Jay Yes!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Dear Jay, Asha, Dr. I and Trubble (and all the rest of you of course!!)

I had really had it yesterday with Dr. I. commenting I should run as far and fast as I could. I did have some blast of insight, which I sorely needed probably. I tend to idealize C. like he does me, not as much, but even so. I can see what he does in trying to put the responsibility for his own behaviour on me. Yes. He did this by saying I helped him too much in the past, which I admitted. Then he said: it is not a good thing you know. I said I knew and was working a lot on that. So, he could not get me there (I owed my responsibility and that worked). Good. But don't forget that it is his responsibility not to trespass into your space! There seems to be an erroneous understanding between the two of you that if he hurts you, it's because you let him. True, but you need to make him responsible for hurting you in the first place! Then he started on the house, how I had never made him feel like it was ours. I defended myself, said well I think I did, what else should I have done. But as you pointed out Dr. I. I will probably have to own my responsibility on that issue too, before it can end and I am starting to see he might be right that I did this, even though I was perfectly right in doing it. There's more, it's still a bit muddy, but I'll get there. What is muddy is that his "rightness" seems to be more important that your "rightness." Question that unfounded assumption, especially since he instigates with his poor behavior.

Yesterday I vented to a good friend, send mails en received replies which was really helpful in getting my spirits up again. Then this morning I read Jay's letter to Trubble and I was all smiling and grinning and feeling very up again.

C. was on the answering machine. He called yesterday (about hunches....) but I did not answer any phones, cause I wanted to get my bearings before talking to him again. I am very glad I did. Cause know I do have a much better perspective on what happened, why I was soooo mad and that him being cute and nice and furry (like Trubble grrrrr Who, little ol' *Me?*) is nice, but no excuse for bad behaviour. But I think I now can address the bad behaviour without throwing away the nice parts. I could not have talked to him yesterday without getting all emotional and I do think it was a good thing he called without me being there and being available or calling back right away. I have learned to wait, to give myself some leeway to get my bearings and I am very very happy to have discovered that.

I was really feeling bad, but it did not last half as long as it would have in the past. I did find the reasons for my feeling bad Excellent, I could handle the bad feelings with the help of friends without needing C. to fix them Good, because C. CAN'T fix YOUR feelings! and I was feeling happy again when I found out he called (which, admitted, made me smile and feel even better).

So, Dr. I. , I am not running yet, but your advise did help a lot to empower me. Maybe I will run in the end. But, it is not over until it is over. And it's not over yet, if you get my meaning. Cool!

I will talk to him, about his apparent need to wave other women under my nose, about his twisting things, not taking the responsibility for his own behaviour, about the house. But now I believe I can do it more assertively and I know talking is not a guarantee to success. But for me it is a huge step, and a change I want to give our relationship. I still do not talk enough about what bothers me. I know I am still learning, and will fall back every now and then and I will keep on doing so. But I can get up by myself and that makes me so much stronger. My friend said: well when he first left, you were feeling so bad, but then you did not have us, to cheer you along and tell you you are a nice and caring person, whatever he says or does and that you should not buy into his twisting things. And she was soooo right. It is like Cloud and Townsend say in there book: When to say yes, when to say no. About boundaries setting: you can only set boundaries when you have a real good support group of friends, cause you know there are people who love you then, even if your partner will drop you because of this boundary setting. It is so true. Friends give you courage.

Thank you all my friends here, you are so much a part of that support too!!!

Lots of love and hugs And *I* forgive you too ...

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Dr Irene,

Am I understanding this correctly:

Theressa said, "There a few things about Ron I have not felt right about, firstly his instance that I went out and met someone new and fumbled as he calls it, date and meet different guys. And his insistence that I not feel guilty about sleeping with these guys. WELL maybe I am naive, but I kept telling myself that RON says it is okay so it is okay. ISN'T this being even more co-dependent than I was with my partner??"

Doc said, "Sort of, but not really. Ron is objective and is trying to point you in the right direction."

Dr. Irene, was Ron's goal to get me to see how other guys are so I could compare them to my unhealthy relationship? Yes, and also to face your fear of dating. And also to make MY OWN CHOICES about what he was telling me and not just being lead like I had been in the past? YES! Also perhaps he was letting me know there is no need to feel guilt if you make a conscious choice to do something. YES!

AM I right in thing this DR IRENE??? Yes Theressa.

Theressa said, "Then when I went back to therapy after all of these actions, I told Ron that I felt even worse, but he didn't seem to be alarmed, he said "it is all part of the process".

Doc said, "He is right."

SO Perhaps Ron's goal was to let me know that when others make decisions for me and I let them, I end up getting hurt, Ron was not alarmed that you felt awful because he knows that it hurts to grow. He also trusts your ability to tolerate the pain. About letting others make your decisions, I think Ron wants you to see that you have choices: you are free to accept or not accept decisions others make for you. However, once you choose a course of action, even if it's following another person's plan, you need to accept responsibility for the outcome because YOU are the one who chose to carry it out. The other person did not MAKE you do it, even if they put pressure on you. SO maybe it is time for me to MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS.

Am I right on this DR IRENE???

Theressa said, "Secondly, Ron insists on telling me that my partner is no good for me. He seems always to see the negatives."

Doc said, "For good reason: it is real, though you seem to prefer denial."

NO! I am just not always sure how to sort out the problems and am confused, as I was with people pleasing and give and take. I stand corrected.

Theressa said, "Thirdly Ron doesn't listen to me when I tell him I have been assertive and spoke up about an issue, but I can't force my partner to comply. RON replies, "but you must if it bothers you."

Doc said, "He is correct. He is telling you to open your mouth, not to make him comply. There is a difference."

So I should speak up if I am unhappy, but if what I want is not forthcoming, then I have to accept this. Yes. You have to accept that your partner will not give you what you want. You may then move on to the next set of choices open to you.

Dr IRENE am I right??? Yes.

Theressa said, "Dr Irene maybe it is me but I feel controlled by RON my therapist at times as if he is leading me on a lead, and I must do as he says. IS THIS THE WAY A THERAPIST SHOULD BE????

Doc said, "Ron isn't doing this Theressa. You are. That is one of the issues you have to resolve."

DR IRENE are you saying I need to question what others say including what Ron says and challenge my own thoughts and then decide for myself??? YES! That's why you do nothing when you are confused. It gives you time to consciously choose your best options.

IS THIS what personal responsibility is about DR IRENE??? YES!

Theressa said, "I am not disputing Ron has my best interests at heart, but should his goal be to make me HATE my partner??"

Doc said, "His goal is to teach you to take care of yourSelf, and now I understand why he wrote me."

DR IRENE RON thinks I should not give in at all though, this surely isn't right if I am ever gonna have a decent relationship. Ron does not want you give in to your partner all the time. You don't realize yet how much your giving in hurts you emotionally. He wants you to be more in touch with yourself so you know when giving would cause you too much pain. You can't do this until you first "reset" your internal "pain toleration thermometer" so to speak. Right now it is set too high. You accept way too much pain; much pain is "normal" for you.

AM I OFF TARGET??? You misunderstand what Ron is saying.

Should it be to cause more conflict?? Wrong question. Giving in less will temporarily cause more conflict. But, if your partner consistently makes a fuss when you don't give in, you are probably with the wrong person - because your partner only knows how to take and not how to give. Before you mentioned your concern with wanting a relationship. A healthy relationship is a two way street, give and take. Ron wants you to see that your partner may not be capable of a two way street, therefore a healthy relationship may not be possible with this person.

Theressa said, "I seem to end up in conflict each time I do what Ron says, like with dating other guys. Like when I speak up about issues. IT seems things get worse. Why is this??"

Doc said, "Because you are in tons of denial over things that really, really hurt. Ron asks you to face it. You don't want to, nor do you take responsibility for yourself. You dump the responsibility for your life on Ron - and then you question Ron's ability to help you. Oh the messy webs we weave.... You are doing all of this Theressa.

SO DR IRENE I HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT I DO!!! YES! AND SPEAK UP ABOUT WHAT IS HURTING ME!!! YES! IS THIS CORRECT???

Theressa said, "Why Dr Irene do you and Ron think I only have the option of getting away from my partner???

Maybe it is because unless my partner starts to change, I will continue to get hurt. Yes. AND until I speak up in the face of my fears, I will never get what I need. Yes.

Am I correct???? Yes.

Theressa said, "Is the goal to grow strong just to leave??"

I think the goal is to take care of myself, and in doing this I might eventually realise I am not getting what I want out of this relationship. Bingo!

AM I Correct??? You bet!

Thanks Theressa

OK guys, I'm done for a bit. Doc.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Hey Cats,

Today was my anniversary (3 years, not so long!) and I totally forgot! until I opened the site and remembered that it's my brother's anniversary too. Well, anyway, that, I think, is progress.

XX, every time I read a post from a guy I am always afraid at first that it's my ex who is writing, but then I see from the details that it's not. I always wonder if he saw things the way you are seeing your ex, although of course I have a vastly different take on things. AND, of course, I have always insisted on no contact each time we broke up.

But, XX, it's tacky and rude and inconsiderate for her to gab to you about her current love interests. It shows a total lack of consideration for your feelings, and for the fact that you still have feelings for her - and she must know that. So it's back to the basic theme: She is being RUDE. Ask yourself if you would really want to put up with a friend who is rude to you regularly. You don't need a friend like that, XX. You need friends who care about you and support you and who are nice to you because they like you. It sounds like you would like to start the relationship again, and it also sounds like she just wants a buddy. This is not a healthy combination of goals for you, especially since she doesn't treat you with even the consideration she should treat a casual platonic friend. I think you should walk away and not look back, give up on the idea of friendship for at least a couple of years, and don't stay in contact with her. She is not being nice to you and she will just continue to bring you down unless you cut her off totally. PS - are you still sleeping together from time to time? DON'T!!! It will become a mere convenience for her and you will only get hurt!

Jay, you sound so good and funny. Hang in there! You know what you can do now for your happiness! There are lots more things to do, you only have to use your imagination!

AJ, Dr. Irene's reference to C.'s insecurity seemed to have made you feel guilty, did I read that right? Don't! It's not your fault he is insecure.

Theressa, I liked your answers to yourself. I really don't think you should feel bad about having gone out with other guys. If Ron can't be nice to you, don't forget the saying about how many fish there are in the sea, and it's not a bad thing for Ron to realize that. If a man can't be nice to you, there are SO many men, Theressa. It's good for a partner to remember that so that he can value what he has. I see your going out with other guys as empowering for you.

But why are men so inept at figuring out what to do socially or how to express themselves? I'm thinking about AJ's recent experience with C. and his German friends, an experience I have definitely been through once in each relationship. Why aren't men getting better at expressing themselves? Why isn't patriarchy disappearing faster? I think they're getting worse sometimes.

Is the key to this to help men/partners (let me try to de-genderify) figure out what to do to keep the relationship , deal with social situations and family responsibilities, etc etc, while at the same time not permitting abusive compensatory behavior? Well, not "help" them per se, but at least not act out when they make doofus choices.

Love, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Whoops, Theressa, Ron is your therapist, isn't he... please substitute "partner" for "Ron" in my last post! Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and everyone,

I realise the majority of my problems are to do with my WEAK boundaries.

I did post a long post but just lost it. In brief what I do is MY CHOICE, not my therapist's nor my friends', nor my partner - JUST ME!!

My therapist can make suggestions, I decide whether to ACT. By George, I think she's got it!

Take care Theressa

URL for boundaries is: http://www.drirene.com/boundari.htm

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Perdida;

It's XX. Thanks for your comments. I admit I felt that deep inside, but like I may have said, I still catch myself "protecting" her feelings. As in I fear telling her I don't want to see her because she'll get upset, and blame it all on me. Yes, she's being rude. The above mentioned is cookies and milk compared to how she usually acts. Are we sleeping together? Heck no! Sex became THE ultimate power trip and control issue with her. We had a wonderful sex life, but after she knew she had my devotion, she suddenly one day cut it off to NOTHING. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm not into "male privilege" and all that...if someone doesn't want to do it, it doesn't happen, and I live with it. But she was awful to me. She'd tease me, touch me, turn me on, anything...and as soon as I responded, she'd either push me away and tell me not to touch her, tell me I was "sexually harrassing" her, or set up countless situations that she would play like invitations to sex, then watch with glee how let down I was when she'd suddenly change her mind. Meanwhile, I was not supposed to pursue or even talk about it, because she wasn't "feeling intimate." OK, you're not feeling like it, so don't tease me or invite me to have sex, OK? Nope. It got worse. I think possibly the most hurtful, mean-spirited thing anyone has ever done to me was the time when she pinned me up against a door, grabbed my private parts and said in my ear: "Just because I can..." It was shocking; I couldn't even react to that. I was like a deer in headlights, it hurt so much, and when I think about it I still feel horrifying pain. Like being stabbed in the stomach...because this was coming from the person who told me she wanted to marry me. I tried to talk to her about this; she responded by telling me she was just being playful, and I was "too sensitive" or "too intense", and that I needed to "lighten up". She'd get really angry anytime she had to take responsibility for her actions. Comments? Please? Does this sound abusive to you? XX.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 19, 2001

S1

Hi! Hi Kyle.

After our chat this afternoon (ok - it was morning where you are) - I have had the following thoughts, starting with some background, then the relationship with my boyfriend and then to me:

Opinions seem to be divided as to whether setting boundaries works. Some say it will; some say the only 'good' way out is to end the relationship. You seem to say it depends on the individual - how 'screwed up' (to use a technical term) their personality is. Giggle! (OK - 'screwed up personality disorder' is not yet officially recognised; it will probably be in DSM V, which will run to 2,000 pages and have 400 new disorders. I admit it - my thoughts on DSM IV have been strongly influenced by the 'antipsychiatrists'. Amen! )

OK - so the question is will setting boundaries work. I can answer that without knowing anything else: Setting boundaries will help any relationship become healthier. Setting boundaries however may not be enough.

The relationship with my boyfriend has developed as follows:

Started normally, i.e. slowly, we saw each other with increasing frequency over a period of some 7 or 8 months. Then we started to see each other every day, and after several months his behaviour started to go off - first idealization then devaluation. Typical narcissistic stuff. Have you seen Dr. Vaknin's stuff? Starts here.

Then for a number of reasons his behaviour improved, but it is worth noting (I think) that I was at that time no longer working in Germany and we saw each other only at weekends. However things were still not quite right. An internet search found your site - and I began to learn what was going on.

After some 6 months or so I was working in Germany again. We saw eac