Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 1998-2001. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

Back to Catbox 23

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

hi, I am stephanie.....new to this site. I am a codependent struggling to make it on my own after 20 years of marriage with a verbally abusive man (and very controlling). I have been on my own for over a year now, after reading Patricia Evans "the verbally abusive relationship". this is the book that gave me the courage to leave. sharon.....the longer you stay away....the stronger you will become. so many times I wanted to run back because I was scared. terrified of the unknown. hang in there. keep coming here for support.

stephanie

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Hi catbox cats, feel really out of touch from not posting for a couple of days! I will read the posts later. In the meantime I want to know if I am being unreasonable. My daughter is not speaking to me but sending the washing home! I think she shouldn't until she gets it right with me and that Jake is encouraging her to be abusive by doing it? Input welcome please!???jay p.s Sharon it is o.k to email me now.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Hi, nice site here! I am currently the scapegoat in my family of origin. At 38 I am finding it more and more difficult to recover from my sisters attacks through verbal abuse {name calling} and emotional abuse {refusing to speak to me, angry letters and phone calls, assessing my mental health, calling me crazy etc.} I have done allot of emotional work over the years trying to recover from the effects of growing up in such a hurting family. Trying to set boundaries has only backfired and given her more opportunity to twist my words and attack me even more cruelly. I need information on the dynamics of this situation, as most of the information here is about husband /wife relationships not specifically between sisters. So far haven't had any luck finding info anywhere about sister relationships like this one. Anticipating your reply.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

I stumbled on this site by accident about a week ago and felt like many of the people here have gone through what I am currently. It's a nice feeling to know you're not alone in all of this. It's hard because I know I have co-dependency issues and it makes it harder to move on and out of a verbally abusive relationship. I lived with a verbal abuser for almost 2 years. At first he was so charming and wonderful and made me feel like a princess. His entire family loved me and I was told I was a member of his family since there was no doubt in his mind we would be married. We moved in together only after about 3 months and he kept pushing to buy things together like cars and electronic equipment. All on my good credit, which isn't too good anymore. He would have some outbursts but they were never directed toward me and I thought they never would be because he "loved" me and I was "different." Well, after about a year things changed and he became very verbally demeaning about my Mother who he decided he hated and about how weak I was. He made me choose between my Mother and him and refused to speak with her or go to any holiday or family gathering. His mother agreed with him and he would use that for ammunition. So things between us became strained he got a new job and started working 12 or more hours (his father is a work-a-holic) and I became more insecure and needy. He withdrew all affection toward me told me I was "annoying" and "talked too much" because when I would make dinner and look forward to him coming home he wouldn't want to speak with me, unless it was him telling me something about work. It's just all so disillusioning and disappointing. Now we are no longer together. The last straw came when he told me he "wouldn't care if I walked out and never came back." So I left but it's been the worst time of my life. I miss him terribly and don't know why. Must be the co-dependency rearing it's ugly head. I just need to know I'm doing the right thing, he has become even more verbally abusive then before now and calls and berates me about money (we shared all finances). Any support would be greatly appreciated as I hope one day I'll be able to give some to those in my situation. Thank you Susan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Dear Stephanie: Thanks for reading my postings. Yes, that book, plus her other one, really turned the corner for me. I left then last spring after reading it. It really had opened my eyes - everything FIT - its the residual push/pull, I'll be good to you promises that are hard because you want to believe them. You want and hope for change. And they do.......for just enough time to go at it again. I have changed so much in my whole belief system through dealing with this almost 2 year relationship. But you know what? I'm glad - because I wouldn't be who I am today. I like myself again and I feel wonderful. Every day I make no contact, it feels better and better.

Hugs, Sharon

PS - Jay, I'm with you on this with your daughter. Don't give in! Stay tough mom and don't let the laundry get done until things get cleared up between you! Jake's behavior is a little on the "disrespectful side" - stay on your OWN SIDE. Do "tough love" for now and you'll gain their respect back. Plus your own.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Hi everyone,

Trubble, I'm sorry your are having a bad day!

I don't have much time right now, but wanted to pop in and say hi. My husband and I are going through one of those "peaceful" times, and I am beginning to doubt myself. He's not being ugly. Last night, he even asked me to come outside with him to look at Venus (it is at it's brightest this week- won't be this bright for 8 more years). Times like this I think I'm a horrible person for thinking some of the things I have about him! It's funny... the "peaceful" times are almost more unnerving to me now than the bad times! Does that make any sense?

Love and Peace,

Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Hi everybody, I’m new to this board, found it a few weeks ago. I’m not sure if I’m co-dependant and if my husband is real verbal abuser. We are together for more than 20 years and it was classical “abuser vs. co-dependant” relationship some time ago. It became better over the years, because I tried to set limits and explain to him that if he is unhappy with me or something, he could try to talk normally and not to scream and yell and call me stupid idiot etc. He didn’t call me names for about a year now (until two weeks ago) and didn’t scream as often as he used to and changed in some other good ways, but it took me years to get to these results and the funny thing is 10 years ago I would be happy with how he is now, but not now. Why? Because all these years his verbal abuse was killing my love for him and I cared less and less. That’s what happens if you stay with verbal abuser for a long time. First I want to talk to Susan, because she is new and looks like hurting the most. Susan, you are strong! You found courage to leave. You miss you man terribly not because “the co-dependency rearing it's ugly head”. You just still love him and you miss good times and you probably are not sure if you did the right thing. I never had the courage to leave. Maybe I’m stronger in other ways, but I’m terribly afraid of being along at least I was. All these years I would rather tolerate any verbal abuse than to leave. Am I sorry I didn’t? Not really. I think everybody has his own time. You leave when you are ready. For me it took 20 years, for you just a few. But it’s done. Try not to dwell on it. I think this man is not good news in other respects too. He looks like a user, he used your good credit “which isn't too good anymore”, meaning he is not responsible person, he just used you credit, money, etc. (In this respect my husband was and still is a good provider and frugal spender. One more reason for me to stay with him). Your partner doesn’t respect your family and just making you to choose between your Mother and himself is very disrespectful and controlling. Doesn’t he understand that he hurts you by asking this, because how can you not to keep in touch with your own Mother? Anyway, Susan, just hang in there. Try not to think about him right now. Pain will subside. Read this board, books about the subject if it helps you. I would also recommend trying to meet new people: men and women. Be outside a lot. Don’t just sit and cry. What helped me once: I found an ad on Excite.com site from a very nice man and I answered and we wrote to each other for some time. I never met him and he stopped writing back to me, (I think he just found right woman and I don’t blame him), but he was a good listener and he helped me to find strength and believe in myself. Maybe you can post your own ad. Just be careful (don’t use your name, don’t give your address etc before you know the person better). You don’t have to meet with him right away (or ever). Try to talk on the Internet at least for a while first and see if it feels right. Or you can post here and there are always people to listen! I’ll tell about my own questions and confusions next time. Good luck to all! Almost strong.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Hello, I have been returning to this site and absorbing all it has to offer for about a week now. It's wonderful. I would appreciate any input regarding this situation... Background first: I was married for 21 years to a physician who was a totally different person behind closed doors. I was 25 when we married after a courtship that was much too short, but I was a perfect 'target' for this man, and he called the shots, and I let him. I met him at work.( I am an RN) and I marveled at his gentleness and bedside manner. I grew up very socially out going and active in high school student councils, sports and clubs, but had great difficulty academically. I had confidence verbally and in my organizational skills, but knew I was a visual learner. Getting though college was a real challenge, but I made it. I look back now and even read yearbook notes from friends...and I see that I was always a listener, a helper of the underdog, patient and not self-centered. I mention this because I realize now that he saw those characteristics and was drawn to relationship because he knew I could be controlled and manipulated. He started slowly, by minimizing my accomplishments and abilities. He'd say, ""well you aren't a very good nurse, and you shouldn't try and work in the Intensive care unit.." (my evaluations were always great and I was 'recommended' by my supervisor to take the job), so I stupidly believed him and doubted myself and everyone else. I soon left the big city hospital and worked as an office nurse to accommodate his hectic schedule as a senior resident. The pressures of his job would lead him to unwind with 5-6 beers when he got home. After even the first, I noticed a different, almost scary look in his eyes. before long, he would be saying demeaning things, and withdraw into his own nasty world. I had had a intimate relationship while in college with a young man who I was engaged to, and after 2 years, it broke off, and we went our own ways. I mistakenly shared that with my husband, and as he got drunk he began to bring it up and twist it into something dirty and disgusting. I was actually a bit of a prude growing up and it was nothing I was ashamed of.....yet. I became pregnant after 8 months of marriage. He became worse and worse, never touching me, holding me. Into my 5th month I found out it was twins....I guess I knew then that I would be trapped in this marriage, so I had better figure a way to make it work. His family lived near by, and were great to me. I would be at family events, and hear everyone marvel about this' favorite son' and I'd die inside, knowing that when darkness came, the evil other person would come out and make my life hell. He would always drink too much, and start on the names.. I was a slut, a c--t, a whore, etc. He would either not want anything to do with me, or he would want to have sex.. but couldn't because of the 8 beers now, and because he couldn't 'do it', it would be my fault, because I was a.. whore..etc. If we ever actually got close to a tender intimate moment. and if I responded with any show of desire. he'd be outraged, and accuse me of probably sleeping with everyone I ever dated and everything would stop, but the verbal attacks continued until he passed out. If I tried to stop in the midst, to use a diaphragm for protection.. I was a whore. If I put the diaphragm in ahead of time, just in case, then I was a whore. Of course, just like the typical enabler and victim, I began to think it really was my fault, that I could work harder on being a good wife. From what I know now, he was a classic case. The would' cycle' on a regular basis. ANGER - REMORSE- etc. I would anxiously await for the good days... when he wasn't mad at me, when I would perhaps get a hug or tender look. I always walked on egg shells. My parents would drive 5 hours to visit, of course staying overnight a few nights, and he would be nice until about 6 o'clock. He then went into nasty mode, and be ever so rude them and make them feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. One night he even got so drunk, he had me locked in the bathroom with him, with my back up against the wall, and when my dad heard yelling, he came to the door, and my ex screamed to him through the door that his daughter was a slut and told dad all about the other relationship I had had. Over the years, I always knew I'd eventually divorce him...but the time had to be right..??.. There was always something that would make me put it off. The birth of my 3rd daughter ( the twins were beautiful identical girls) and 5 years after that, the birth of my son. I began substituting in the schools as the clinic nurse, this was not well received, but he tolerated it because it was only occasional. I absorbed myself in the children. Room mothers, brownie leader, volunteer director..etc. Everyone saw us as a perfect family. We were financially comfortable, the kids all excelled in athletics, class leaders....but no one knew what our lives were really like... Egg shells all fragile egg shells. There were countless events and episodes at home, through the years, the kids knew no other life, than 'don't upset daddy' He never was physical. Just moody and critical. Actually, most of his 'behavior' he kept hidden and only subjected me to it. We couldn't socialize...because my friends were jerks, we would go out to dinner, alone, but, he wouldn't talk to me. I was ridiculed, insulted, I wasn't up on current events, I wasn't very bright, but he'd take care of me. Meanwhile, as the girls got older, they would hear things, and they now tell me, they were scared and confused. The twins senior year in High School, the health teacher arranged for an exhibit called 'the clothes line' I found out that all 3 girls worked on a t-shirt depicting my relationship with their dad. (The clothes line travels around the country, each t-shirt is created with a victims story on it. it's a very moving exhibit !!!) After that, I seriously began the process of separation-divorce, etc. I have now been divorced 3 years, separated 2 before that. I have become a much stronger person, but I still break my heart for the innocent ones affected by this. My children will always be scared, and put in the middle. They are great kids! The twins are 23, their sister is 19 and my son is 14. My dad died 15 years ago. I truly believe that he and God have helped guide me and strengthen me when I thought it was too overwhelming and easier to give in. Because of my relationship with the schools, I was welcomed with enthusiasm to a full time position as a school nurse in an elementary school. I met a wonderful man 1 and 1/2 years ago that has added great joy to my life. But... here is my dilemma..... My ex has never stopped his veiled threats of financial destruction, emotional abuse and character assignations. He is truly a troubled man, who continues to bounce the kids around emotionally, one moment loving and supportive to them, and the next, angry and telling them daily, that their mother is responsible destroying the family and the financial well-being. He has left messages on the answering machine calling me names, criticizing my every move. He has nasty names for my gentleman friend and doesn't hesitate to make up lies about him and about me. He bought a place 2 blocks away, and until I took out a restraining order to have him stop calling and entering the house, "his house' as he calls it. He continued to make his own rules, and ignore it all. Last month, the phone rang at 8 am, when he heard my voice, he screamed "F--k you, you bitch" and hung up. There was so much anger in his voice, at that early hour, I was truly concerned (scared). So after great consideration, I went to the police station and reported it. I knew it would alter my future drastically, but I KNOW that it is wrong and I DON'T deserve this. He made himself unavailable until the next morning, when he went to the arraignment. I am sure this was very embarrassing for him. He is a well respected doctor, who I can honestly say, has not allowed this to affect his practice. The pre-trial conference is next week. He expects the girls to go with him and stand there. He has the kids asking me daily if I am going to drop the charges. He's in panic mode, and is embellishing details, and has the kids convinced that we will loose the house, we will end up all over the local paper and radio stations, that he will loose his medical license, etc. He has become a VICTIM. They know that these are the consequences for the actions he takes, but they are upset with me. I checked and was told that all this will be unlikely, unless he creates attention. I see this as another attempt to be in control, to beat the system, to WIN. He is so similar to text-book descriptions, it's remarkable. I can check off each step of the way, his actions and reactions. He has never stopped haunting me.( and he vowed he never will). He twists things around, criticizes everything I do, and drills into their heads that I am a selfish person. (They all choose to live with me, we have joint custody, but I have physical custody) He has been dating a very nice woman for 3 years. She is very vulnerable... just what he likes. Yet he still has refused to move on. Instead he chooses to hold our children emotionally hostage while they are forced to watch their dad attempt to dismantle and destroy their mother. There is sooooo much more to this saga. I don't dwell on the past, I use it for reference, and I will always remember it. I need to get through the next few days. My gut tells me to not drop the charges (which only the DA can drop, but I could beg him to). This man will never stop, so even if I did get them dropped, he'd start up again, anyway. I know this is terribly long, I wish I had found something like this, years ago. This emotional and verbal abuse so often is not taken seriously. My scars are hidden inside my soul. Thank you, Susan

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Susan, your story brought back so many painful memories. I suppose that this is good therapy for me. thank all of you who share your stories with other codependents. but hang in there Susan. DO NOT DROP THOSE CHARGES! you have done a brave thing. my ex also manipulates our children and tells them that I destroyed the family. they hear it on a regular basis. I figure that i cannot control what he says, so I try not to think about it. I believe that our children will see thru all his lies soon enough. I am waiting for that day. stephanie

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Hi everybody, I’m back to write about my confusions. It’s not that simple (at least not for me) to define who is right and who is wrong. Sometimes I think it’s my fault. As I already wrote in my previous post, I’m with my husband for more than 20 years and I fought with his verbal abuse and he got better. For about a year he didn’t call me names and didn’t yell at me as often as he used to. He is better, but I’m still unhappy. Sometimes I think maybe it’s me, maybe I’m ungrateful nagging bitch? Well, would you happy if your husband only once gave you something for Valentine Day, once or twice for Christmas in about 10 years? Would you be happy if he would never compliment your appearance, but you hear him complimenting other women and worse, he would make criticizing comments about your appearance? Would you feel loved if he only hugs or kisses you, when he wants sex? Would you be happy if your husband always refuses to make a picture with just him and you alone, but when it’s everybody in a picture, he is the very first to join? OK, here is an episode #1. We were grocery shopping. My husband rarely joins me, but this time he did. I’m picking a jar of spaghetti souse and he asks: “Why are you taking this small jar?” “It’s the size I always buy.” “ No, you don’t, this jar is smaller” “It’s just different company, but size is the same” “No, it’s smaller” When we came home, I showed him an old jar of souse and we read on the labels that there is the same amount of oz. “So, it’s not smaller” I say. “But it’s a different shape” Here I started laughing: “but we were talking about a size, not the shape, shape couldn’t be smaller or bigger” He just looked at me for a second and said: “You don’t look pretty, when you laugh. You chin is shaking and your stomach is shaking” I was startled and just ran upstairs crying. My son said: “ don’t listen to him, nothing is shaking, he just can’t loose.” You probably will say: why were you trying to win anyway. Because he is never ever wrong. He would always divert conversation. He doesn’t know the words “sorry” or “I made a mistake” in big things or small things. This time he just couldn’t deny it, so he made me feel bad anyway. But maybe it’s still my fault, why didn’t I just stopped arguing? How many times I did, but it didn’t feel right. Am I bitchy? Was it my fault? Maybe, I shouldn’t have laughed, because it sounded like: “ha-ha, you lost!”? OK, episode #2. We were at the party. Everything went well for some time. I was cranky the whole day, probably PMS or PMDD, I don’t know, but these days I just want to cry the whole day and very irritable. Here comes the photographer and starts taking pictures of everybody. My husband waves him away as usual, when he comes to us. But when the hosts of the party called to join them and he jumped right up and told me “let’s go” I just snapped. I said that I don’t want to, you don’t ever want to make a picture with you and me along, I’m too fat and ugly for you, and you are so eager if it’s with anybody else. (Later he told me that I made an ugly face and was loud. Maybe.) But he started screaming at me: “What’s wrong with you, you are snake, you are f.. bitch, shot up your stinking mouth. How can you do this? I thought this morning that everything was so nice between us and you are spoiling everything. How can you do it so sneaky when I least expected it? You remember everything bad I did for years and trying to get revenge! I shouldn’t have ever met you. I want you to burn.” And so on and so forth. After that episode we didn’t talk for 2 weeks. (Our usual practice, actually usually it’s more). I felt so bad that I spoiled the evening. I wanted to apologize so bad, but couldn’t, because he called me all those names and wished me to die. Well, there is a third episode, but I’ll write about it later. Please, I will appreciate honest opinion. Thanks, Almost Strong.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Dear almost strong, I read your post and wanted to cry......is there anyway you can remove yourself from this? Do you work outside of the home? Can you take the kids and live somewhere else?

That is so sad on what he is saying to you. If you can, do the research on abusive partners, read books, get into therapy for YOURSELF. It sounds like he likes things as they are, you sound miserable. Please save yourself and your children -- get out!

Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001

S1

Hello again! I couldn't wait to check the computer tonight, once my son finished his report, and I could read everything alone. This is like having a guardian angel that you can actually speak with!. I noticed that there are now 2 Susan's that are writing. I am the one who wrote about the pre-trial dilemma- maybe it would be easier to call myself ... Susan # 2.

Have to sign off again. Another one needs the computer... Thank you. I hope I can be of some help to others, also. Cheers! Susan #2

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001

S1

Hi, everyone, Jay here and welcome all the new people named or unnamed!

There is just so much to read in the catbox it is hard to know where to begin and I am going to write a lot from memory. Yeah!

Dear Sharon, do I get this right? You are in contact with Dr Psycho again. Please be careful. Leopards don't change their spots overnight and don't forget you had to call the police on him.

Dear Theressa, I thought you were amazing to keep as calm as you did with your boyfriend but that in the end it came down to communication. If he had said he was unwell it might have eased the situation.

About the responsibility thing. I can really identify with that as I used to think as you did and want to be really laid back. As you say it isn't the adult option though and all I can say is it is something you have to give yourself time to get out of or you will set yourself up for failure.

Dear Scapegoat, I think you need to put the problem back where it belongs, on your family of origin. They will think what they think but you and only you know about you. Do what is right for you and ignore them.

Dear Anne, I think that is the difficulty: that they are sometimes so nice and then it gets confusing and we think it is all our fault. Writing it down sometimes helps me keep a reality check. :)

Dear Susan. Hi, I think you are really brave and were right to leave. His subsequent behaviour shows it.

dear Almost Strong, I agree with Sharon, I think you need a break. he sounds horrible.

Feeling really disappointed I didn't manage to keep centred once the anger took hold, but I guess it was too big to bury and at least I have said all I needed to now. I'm trying to get more centred today which is fortunately a busy day and I have loads of good stuff to do and a love story to write by 6.30 for my writing group. I stood up to Jake this morning and told him that he couldn't organise my affairs for me - which he didn't like and told me that was not how it was going to be - and hard luck Jake it is! Is a kind of aggressive no nonsense. Is my stand up for myself attitude a stage on the way to recovery? Yes. Maybe I need the anger? It's always been there. You are just accessing it now. What I would like though is to feel calm again. (actually I just remembered that there is a stage like this described on the victim pages: stages of recovery) I guess I just grew up learning that Christians weren't meant to be angry and that feeling anything other than perfect wasn't o.k. I AM o.k I am just one more person who has had bad things happen and who is not going to let themselves go through life unsorted. Right. Even if you're angry about something at Xmas.

I guess at the moment; even if we are in the same house I just have to learn to think and live separately from Jake and hope that in time enough will heal to get us back together. Or if it doesn't then splitting up will be a natural thing to do. Jay

Your goal: Be immediately aware of your anger while it's still at low levels and effectively and calmly make your statement (if appropriate.)

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001

S1

Hi Jay,

Thanks for the encouragement.

Firstly I think It has helped me to see how much my lateness affects my life and all those around me. I never thought of it as showing lack of care for others before. :) Yeah! Otherwise, your behavior is "passive aggressive!" Also I realised I have to learn to limit the time I spend on things so I get balance in my life. It did help me when I can't remember who posted it, SOMEONE on the I am responsible board said "Theressa choosing how to spend your time and how much time you spend on each task and having some structure in your life". ISN'T externally being controlled, which is what you wanted to eradicate. IT is in actual fact SELF CONTROL (Controlling once self) which is what we need to aim for if we are to become healthy. Yes, so you run your life with your head, thus giving you a better shot at making it work. WELL THIS WAS A REVELATION FOR ME. Cuz you see I was fighting again being controlled, but I guess I was just confused. Yippeee! She got it!

I think myself I did well with my boyfriend. Since I did keep saying, "Yeah lets not waste the rest of the evening, and lets make the best of it." Instead of trying to talk him out of his feelings.

I think though I ENGAGED when he started to behave how he was telling me not to. My therapist spoke about this in our session on Monday evening. HE said "Theressa how your partner works is this, HE firstly tried the direct approach, The pity pot. " Poor old me" as he went on and on about how the night was ruined etc, but you told him it wasn't. SO he tried another button, one that usually ALWAYS works. The Acting out button. Whereby he behaved like a spoilt child and threw a tantrum. He sat with his pint and sipped it slowly, he knew it would ENGAGE you because, No one likes to be accused of wasting time and then have someone else waste time. SO the thing that bugged him, he turned around on you, GIVING YOU A TASTE OF YOUR OWN MEDICINE SO TO SPEAK. Giggle! I like your shrink!

He knew such a PEOPLE PLEASER would hurry her drink. And she would go even further to make sure she didn't mess up anymore of the night by nagging you to finish your drink. (You knew she'd do this, then finally you'd have your revenge, HER reaction, and then you could blame her, THAT IS PUNISHMENT isn't it, for her.) SO YOU PROVOKE AND SHE REACTS, Then she looks like the crazy one who caused all this. HOW CLEVER.

So Jay, I know that when he sat sipping his pint, I should have just enjoyed my drink and not rushed (I mean drink it in a reasonable manner, not purposely being slow) then I should have kept quiet and not pay any attention to his dwardling. THEN he would have finished his drink.)

You see I noticed that he usually ACTS OUT, I engage, (As in nagging) and he feels controlled, he feels I am telling him what to do, and he carries it on longer, then he blames me.

What is interesting about this is that whenever I feel controlled, or like he is telling me what to do, I also see RED. So I might be acting out of the child part of me. (the part that still has childish habits and patterns) The poor victim bit of me. Now if I feel he is pressuring me I feel angry. AND controlled. Like he is trying to force me to do something. But he can't.

I will try to use an example: When the other week he parked my car in an awkward spot, (I instantly told myself I can't move that car, it is too hard, SO I lacked confidence) he told me how I could move it, he told me he knew I could. BUT I felt controlled, cuz he said "I am not moving it for you, so it is your choice move it or don't) This left me feeling abandoned, wanting him to fix it for me like as if I was a victim. HE had handed me back the control of the situation and my fears were evident. I felt he was pressuring me to do this task, which I didn't have confidence in. He was forcing me to face my fears.

Well I did move the car.

What this helped me see is that: Whenever one of us feels the other is pressuring us or trying to control the other we REACT. So I think this is a boundary issue, I have to stop trying to look after his side of the street and I have to stop expecting him to look after my side cuz now I am an adult. SO I need to keep out of nagging and trying to tell him what he is thinking and trying to fix him. AND he needs to continue not fixing things for me, but continue to pass me back the responsibility.

He doesn't always pass me back the responsibility. BUT that day he did.

SO I am working on MY TIME KEEPING. Now I have no reason to see it as being controlled, but as caring for others, and being responsible for my own life choices and the consequences.

It did help me when I saw the consequences if I wasn't on time for work. THE supervisor was gonna change my hours, which would inconvinience me and everyone else.

SO I guess it does take something this dramatic to change things. :)

Thanks for listening Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001

S1

Dear Scapegoat....

I'm new to this site - just found it today. I too have always been the scapegoat in my family. I grew up with a verbally abusive father and my brother has followed his pattern (at least with me). I sought counseling a few years back and learned about co-dependency, etc. Things were easier for me when I avoided my family and only saw them a few times a year. I now have a 2 year old son and have been back in the family ring since he was born. Just this past week-end my brother "went off" about my husband taking a hammer of his fifteen years ago. My husband was out of town so I'm not sure if that's why my brother "went off" on me or if it was just an excuse to "vent". Either way, when he has these "times", it truly scares me. The look in his eyes and the anger/hatred in his voice make me shake. I don't want my son exposed to this kind of environment - I not only worry that he could be the recipient, I don't want him continuing the cycle and learning this behavior. To make a long story short, when I told my Mother (who was watching my son 2 days a week so I could work) that my brother scares me and I really don't want my son exposed to this - I was told there was nothing wrong with my brother and that I was the mean, crazy one and was trying to hurt my brother. I know in my mind that this isn't true but it's opened old wounds again. My brother is currently taking anti-depressants for depression caused by a chemical imbalance. He even talked about electro-shock treatments - which I thought sounded pretty serious for depression - but I don't know a whole lot about it. I'm sorry if I'm sort of rambling but the last few days have been very stressful and with my husband out of town I guess I'm feeling pretty alone and vulnerable. I too would like to find more information about sibling and family abuse. Thanks

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001

S1

Hi I am new here. I just found this website today while searching on anger management. I'm not sure if what our problem is but let me know what you think. I have been married for almost 4 years now. My second husband..I have 2 girls from previous marriage. We share joint custody with my ex. For the first couple of years of our relationship my husband was everything I had been looking for. Understanding, caring, helpful, supportive. Then is started to go down hill. We started fighting. When we fought he got extremely anger beyond what I call reasonable. I had told him in the beginning of our relationship that I didn't deal well with anger. My father had been very verbally and sometimes physically abusive and just got anger with no warning. He assured me before we married he had no anger problems. WRONG! Well at first I thought it was just the strain of the blending family etc etc. but the last year or so I can't use that excuse. He has gotten so anger once he put his fist through the wall. He yells terrible things at me You stupid bitch etc. I get very afraid and start to cry and that seem to just make him more anger. So I try not to cry. This last time was almost the last straw for me. We had a very busy month in FEB we were going to take the RV for a long weekend. Well Saturday night it happens again. He goes off to walk the dog and stops to talk to some people in the rv park. I am left alone building the fire myself and having a glass of wine. He comes back sits down asks what I am doing I say watching my fire and he gets up throws the chair and it starts. I have an attitude he says I go inside he follows and the yelling continues. We both say things we shouldn't. Now I have tried not fighting back that didn't work so I have been trying yelling back that isn't working. We go to bed separately. Next morning he wants to act like all is right with the world. I can't so I wanted to talk..he gets even angrier..says we are leaving packs up and starts driving like a maniac. Beating the steering wheel yelling. Scottie one of our dogs gets scared and trys to go up to him He picks him up and throws him to the back of the RV. Well now I am scared of what he will do next. I am sitting in fear when he comes back at me...yelling DON'T CRY I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU..I CAN'T WAIT TO GET AWAY FROM YOU. I look up so he sees I'm not crying I was just scared something he told me he would never do again. He drives on like a maniac trying to scare me more I guess. He keeps yelling throws my cellphone at me at telling me to call my mom and tell her what a bastard he is. He stops several more times trying to get me to leave the RV and take the care we are towing home but I was afraid to leave the dogs with him. I flinched once when I thought he might strike me and of course he says I'M NOT LIKE THAT YOU STUPID BITCH. We got home and he had calmed down by then thank goodness. Now let me also say he has been to doctors already and he doesn't do anything they suggest. He says my drinking is a problem. I think it is because his mother was an alcoholic. I don't think 2 glasses of wine warrants all that anger and I wrong? Right now I am not sure what I want to do. I see all my dreams for the future going down the drain. We had talked of one day getting a bigger Rv and traveling the country when the girls are grown. But right now I feel very depressed because all I have worked for is gone. I don't trust that he will change he has said he would get help before and he doesn't. He doesn't follow through on many things he says he will do. I can't just let it go over and over again. Usually he is very nice after one of these outbursts helping around the house but not really saying he is sorry. I told him all I can give him right now is co existing until he proves to me he is going to get help. Am I being to harsh? I don't see myself being a victim and I don't think I will put up with it for long. I am just still coping with the feeling of all my hopes and dreams being gone. I am very heartbroken. I am still hopeful he will do something. Anyway thanks for letting me vent. Carla

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001

S1

Dear Asha, just replied to you and accidentally deleted the post! I was just wondering. Probably completely out of line, but I have seen a few businesses go under as they wouldn't diversify. Having managed to so my share at one time in not effectively running a tutorial school in a financially viable way (only it wasn't my money that was lost) I know how stressful it is. My own method is to ignore the bills! so you are at least a lot more responsible than me.

I guess though either reaction is just stress. maybe it would help to see where the high points in the year usually are? I just wondered if things got tough anyway at this time of year? (Don't answer that I am just kind of thinking back about what I wish I had done differently).

As for the parents thing. I think seeing it is half way to conquering it.

dear Carla,Hi, no you are not being too tough. You shouldn't put up with his behaviour and I think he sounds really stressed out and in need of medical help. Can you leave, or get him to leave until he does? love, jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. Well, nothing really new on Dr. Psycho. I am daily getting my own "revelations" about him by meeting new people and waking up with different outlooks about things and life in general. Now that I am not in his "web" so to speak, nor am I in a relationship with him again, I can really feel the difference NOT having his crazy behaviors in my life. I can see him - I can talk to him - we run into each other at the store and at restaurants where we used to eat together. Its VERY impersonal between us. I look at him with some different feelings, and I know I can never feel the same about him again. In fact, last night I was eating at a local restaurant alone and he came in and automatically joined me. It was friendly - yet impersonal - we both laughed at some things going on in our lifes - but yet we did not get connected together like lovers in the past. I almost felt "indifferent" about him - and I guess that is why being in contact almost helps me because it is taking the "sting" out of the abandonment issues I had about the break up of us. In essence, there is nothing else we can work out. We know we can not live together. I will not live with a man that treats me that way. He acted wierd and irrational towards me when he was tired, hungry, stressed, "low blood sugar spells" and the sick, twisted blaming/accusation cycles were enough to make me feel somewhat suicidal at times. I haven't felt that way - those low times - since we split. So, nature is running its course with my feelings for him - falling out of love with an abuser DOES NOT happen overnight, contrary to what some may think. There is a process. I just hope mine gets over soon. I am very jaded at this point about getting involved with another man on a deep level until I stay in therapy for at least a few more months. But feeling the "indifference" is feeling grounded right now. I hope it lasts!

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon, sounds like you are getting over him! that's great, love jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Hi Asha,

SORRY I posted your e-mail, I really should have asked you first. A BIT of the people pleasing part of me. PERHAPS?

I have been using a book recommended by Steve, I just can't remember its name. David described the techniques on Buddah, First you identify your triggers: Does your heart race, do your palms become sweaty, does your breathing increase, do you tense your shoulders, do you tense your stomach. I think the book you're talking about is The Anger Control Workbook.

Then you learn to remove yourself when you feel these triggers and breathe in one, two, three, four, and out four, three, two, one.

Then you correct your cognitive thoughts. THIS is especially useful: You fold a sheet of paper in half, on the left hand side you write down the negative thought about the thing that is making you angry and give it a percentage, Then you write on the right hand side of the paper a positive logical thought that could be true about this negative thought.

e.g Your partner is late. Negative thought: He is doing this on purpose, he knows it hurts me 100% (you feel this 100%)

Positive thought: He could have been held up in traffic, or something unavoidable came up 10%. (you feel this 10%)

NOW each time you feel negative you tell yourself the positive logical explanation. At first you will find it hard to believe but no matter, just say it. Eventually you will see evidence that this person isn't necessarily always late on purpose.

ANOTHER EXCELLENT THING IN THE BOOK: Fear, surprise, anger. WHICH IS IT? Can you identify the difference:

Surprise - Your not sure if this is a threat so you check it out. YOU FIND IT ISN'T AND so you calm yourself down.

Fear - There is physical danger, and you see there is a real threat to your health, or physical well being, so you plan to remove yourself from this REAL attack. HOWEVER, there may not be physical danger but you have built an image up in your mind so you need to push through this fear using action. USING The cognitive technique above.

FINALLY: Anger - threat to your emotional well being, your true self, your value, your self esteem.

When someone threatens your self esteem you can firstly, check for triggers, then decide to remove yourself from the room, then cool off by breathing, and then use the Cognitive negative thought stopping technique.

Eg: He said I am useless, This is true *% This is not true because I can do xxxxx 100%.

Then you decide what you want to do about the verbal attack. You may want to tell your partner this is not okay and I will do xxx, if you continue to do this.

FURTHER AS you learn to identify your triggers you might also want to note times and situations which make you most annoyed. You can plan ahead for these. YOU might decide when you are feeling ill, sick etc you will spend time alone, since you are especially going to blow.

In the mornings you might be on edge so maybe you need to give yourself more time.

I hope this helps. Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Hi Asha,

I am still working on the above techniques myself, so don't worry if they don't all come at once. DOES Steve not have any books on Anger management?

As for the bills maybe you can get a box and put each bill into it and set aside one day only to deal with the bills. I would also suggest you priorities the bills. (HENCE MAKING CHOICES THAT ARE RIGHT FOR YOU), Now you pay the most urgent ones. If you don't have enough to cover them. YOU RING THE COMPANIES AND ASK can you defer payment, and get a date off them when the deadline is.

Further some companies will give you longer to pay, or installment methods of payment.

YOU also in the future might want to pay things by a direct debit that comes out every month, so that the payments are spread over the year.

OR maybe you could in the future set a standard amount you can spend. AND the remainder put into a savings account so that when things are tight you can use this money.

COULD you sit down with Steve and brain storm on ways to drum up more business?

I THINK GOD sent these times so that you and Steve can work together on problem solving. What do you think?

Also be kind to yourself and spend some special time not worrying about the bills.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Hi Jay thanks for listening and at least I know I'm not the bad guy here. It is not my normal nature to be so cold towards another person but I don't see any other way to get through to him. As for one of us leaving it will not be me for sure and he won't leave without me having him thrown out. I'm really not ready for that my two girls really love him and thankfully have not seen him at his worse yet. They have been through one divorce and I am not ready to put them through all that again just yet. He has been to 2 different therapist but he usually convinces them that I have a drinking problem so it is not his problem you see. The therapists have made some good suggests for how he can handle his anger but he just doesn't do any of them. We are kind of at a stand still right now. He is being very nice..he left me a card yesterday saying how much he loves me and the girls..how he doesn't want to lose us...he wanted to hold me but didn't think it was time yet. All this is suppose to work on my sympathetic side. You see I told him I didn't believe he would get help or change because I have heard it before. He wants me to stop drinking cold turkey he calls it and he promised to get some anger management help. Well I don't really like making deals but if it will help..I can not drink that is really not a problem and then he will have nothing to blame. So far he has made no moves to seek help not even as much as what I am doing right now. He plays on the computer alot at night..it took me only a few minutes to find this site..he has not even tried. Oh I forgot to mention maybe he accused me of having an affair..a ridiculous possibility since I barely have anytime to myself and I have been home with the family every night. He just couldn't understand why we having been physical...kind of hard to get in the mood with someone you calls you names. Well it is for me so that is part of what is going on too. We have no physical relationship right now until he proves to me he is getting help. I am afraid it will anger him more if I don't give in soon but then maybe that is not a bad thing. If he loses it now maybe he will see it is not my problem but his and get help fast. Anyway thanks again for listening. Helps just to right it all down sometimes. carla

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Hi Carla here again.

I have a question also. Every time we go through one of these spells or what ever you call them. He refuses to leave the house. This last time for instance...We got back early as I had said and we still had 2 days off from work. I ask him to leave and give me some time alone and just won't. He said ok you leave for a couple of hours and then I will ok so I go to the mall. He never leaves me alone....the next day still no time does he leave the house. What is that about? I don't really get it any ideas?

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Carla, It sounds like he might be afraid that someone you like will come over while he is gone. It is also a control thing. If you ask him to leave he won't do it because the idea came from you and not him. I am curious as to why he changed so after 2-3 years of being so loving. Has anything occurred that could have made the difference? Have you asked him why he was so good to you in the first couple of years and isn't now? It seems like you need to physically get away from him. Separate. If you do not want a physical relationship with him right now and he is being impossible why live with him? When you make a physical separation they start to see you again as a separate person. This is very important because the abuse is the worst when they can't seem to respect your individual nature and have no sense of your boundaries. Heidi Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. Nothing real different to report other than my continuing process of elimination of "riff-raff" aka Dr. Psycho. Had another experience with his dragon coming out of him again......it doesn't take long for him to get toxic again. So, I'm back in detox. Again, I know its this process that I'm learning to lean into - and actually embrace.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Hi Heidi I can't figure out why he was so great in the beginning and not now. I have ask him this many time and he doesn't have an answer really. He is not a pain to live with after the anger tantrum really...he usually starts trying to make up. He helps with housework gives me cards etc. He is not verbal abusive on a daily basis..just kind of comes in spells. Physically separating is not just that simple 2 girls 3 dogs money etc. I have heard alot about just leaving ...is it not possible that with anger management things can improve? Carla

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Dear Almost Strong, Boy have I been there. My ex told the kids he's leaving because Mommy is too fat and can't keep the dishes done. He never, unless forced to, took me anywhere. He said he was embarrassed to be seen with me in public. I didn't know how to behave. If, heaven forbid, he had to take me to a wedding, he would put me in a corner and tell me not to talk to anyone. It would be too embarrassing. The funny thing is that at the time I was a size 12 and in sales. Now that he's gone I've lost 20 lbs and do some modeling for a jeweler and a photographer I know. Nothing major but a real self-esteem boost. I've had as many as 8 dates in 5 days (long story). So don't believe for a minute that his opinion means squat. I would work so hard to be pretty enough to maybe get a compliment. What a waste of energy. I could go to out of town soccer tournaments with him but my job was to stay in the room to take care of the kids and do the teams laundry between games. I used to call it being locked up. I could go to the grocery store if I needed to get stuff for the kids. But that was the extent of me leaving the hotel room. The first time my boyfriend took me out of town for the weekend, I mentioned that I still had to get reading material. He said "what for?" I said "for when I get locked up" it was then I realized that it was going to take a long time to be "normal" again. Normal people enjoy each others company. Normal people are proud of the person they are with whether they are a size 8 or a 12. Normal people are happy doing even the mundane things as long as they are together. Normal people don't use the "C---" word. Normal people don't take away your financial freedom. Normal people don't keep you from friends and family and the outside world. Abusers Aren't Normal. Stop trying to treat him as such. Read, Read, Read, and Listen to your Gut. It was my mother-in-law who told me her son was abusing me and I needed to get help. I blew it off. Thought I could handle it. I was wrong. March 3 is the 2nd anniversary of my freedom (divorce). The hurt and confusion is overwhelming at times. Be patient with yourself. It took a long time to get here and it'll take time to get better. Freedom is good. Knowledge is wonderful. Fear can be overcome. Love is out there. Cinderella

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Hi Almost strong A very loving friend told me about Dr Irene's site yesterday and so today is my first. I want to write to you because you are in the same place I was for 23 years. I left my ex in 97 after 23 years of hell. All I can tell you is to get out. I wish I would have earlier. I never did anything right. And I would always keep changing as I would listen to him complain about something else that was wrong within me and about me. To the extent that after years and years of this I lost the person who God created. They say that a person can not change another. WRONG. If you are a codependent like I am, another person can force you into loosing yourself, and I started to notice that my daughter was being damaged by his verbal abuse too. If he is abusing you verbally, he is abusing your children too. And I see it in both of mine. My son is a pleaser and my daughter is full of anger.

I'll warn you...the demons don't end even when the marriage does. Since I left four years ago, I am slowly learning to be the person I was in the early 70's. Even my children tell me I'm different, I am happier, I smile, I am relaxed. But deep inside the codependency, emerges. I get so lonely and I panic when I am alone. I don't like to be home now. My kids are grown and I fight the loneliness. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to be what my therapist says "Your own best friend" To be happy to be alone and to like who you are. After 23 years of someone telling me I am ugly, I am fat, I have holes in my face, I am a lousy lover, I can't raise the children right, I am selfish, I am cold as ice, I am a heathen etc....when I have learned I am not. I am a smart pretty size 8 petite woman with a nice personality and I am warm. I have learned these things from my friend...but it has been hard for me to believe what I am now being told. How does one do that? How do you battle the dragon that battled you..how do you get the voice out of your head, the sayings the visual images? Do they ever end?

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. Wow. What a day. No news on the Dr. Psycho home front - per se ----however, an ex-co-worker committed suicide this past Tues. night. He left this agency around 6 months ago, but we found out today that he and his wife had problems for years - on Tuesday night he kept his wife and 3 children hostage in their home. He beat her - they then found an exit and left the home - and he killed himself in the bathroom. This is really hitting home for me. This could have been a situation I may have entered into with Dr. Psycho as there was that element of abuse. Last summer he talked about his guns and saying wierd, bizarre stuff. This man was not right. I don't know.......this is all happening for a reason. Almost like my dead co-worker is trying to send me a message here. We are all in shell-shock here at work.

Life.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, March 01, 2001

S1

Dear Trubble,

I'm sorry you're having a bad day! But you look so cute there under the covers! Anyway, there's nothing like getting under the covers on a bad day, so snuggle away! snuggle snuggle!

Hi everyone - I've been lurking. This site helps so much. When I post, I can re-read what I said, and my last post seems to me like textbook codependency when I describe losing my Self in the presence of my ex, even my looks magically disappeared to reappear when I wasn't with him. Note to Self: Don't forget who you are, no matter what! Enjoy your Self!!

Welcome new folks, you've come to the right place. Sharon, I'm sorry about your co-worker. There is something really psychically hideously out of balance about an unnatural death, a suicide or a murder. My sympathies for you and your co-workers.

I understand your personalizing your colleague's death with Dr. Psycho. Put a post-it note in your brain but don't obsess! I thought about that kind of thing often with my ex - I also worried that he might be the kind of person who would forget to drop the baby off at day care on the way to work, leaving it in the car all day. He said he thought it was normal that his father often forgot to pick him up, and was angry that this horrified me, his dad leaving a little kid waiting for hours on a street corner (as he himself described it). Egad, why am I talking about him again! because I must need to...

Carnaval here in Brazil was a total blast. Everyone is so cheerful! They seem to really know how to put a bad mood away and have a great time. I wonder if our problems with abuse aren't mainly cultural. Well, I can answer that - it's because the US is the best place for women to be free, and so we get attacked more AND we accept it less. Much as I love it here, it's a really macho place. I wouldn't want to go back to having to accept macho behavior again - can't put us back in the box. I wish people knew how to have a good time AND honor and respect women.

Well, I'll go back to lurking now. Hang in there, everyone.

Love, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

help i just went thru 5 hrs of extreme verbal abuse

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

TO poster,

Who said help I just went through 5 hours of verbal abuse.

FIRSTLY go and spend some time alone close the bathroom door and run a bath and have a long soak, then pamper yourself. Take the day easy and try to go off alone today and if you feel like crying let it all out.

Then you grab the phone book and ring for an abuse therapist. YOU need help handling all of this.

Don't at this moment go over what happened, you need to be calm to work out what you should do next time. BUT for know go and take care of yourself as I said above.

THEN revisit catbox tomorrow and we can look at what you could do next time.

Take care, you have our support Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

theresa thank you for being there this am i had 3 biopsies done on my breast,,plus much trauma in the last 3 yrs,,,now this, sheesh,i was told to call harry, dick, tom, etc, and talk to them about my t*t,,,imagine,,,,

wendy

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

Hi Wendy,

Sometimes people say things out of anger and sometimes that anger is cuz they don't know what to do so out of frustration they get angry. THIS IS not a good excuse but YOUR PARTNER MAY HAVE LEARNT THIS PATTERN TO DEAL WITH THINGS HE HAS NO CONTROL OVER. Like your illnesses.

I recently discovered that the times things go mostly wrong are when CONTROL IS involved. That being lack of control that one feels or if one is trying to control the other.

For instance if I feel a lack of control (maybe fear) I tend to feel angry. AND then if I feel the other person is trying to force me to face this lack of control (fear), I feel even more angry. THE same seems to happen with my partner. If he feels I am nagging him or trying to fix him he tends to get angry (since he thinks I think he isn't good enough)

BUT for now Wendy just concentrate on taking care of yourself today. TOMORROW you can work out how to sort this out.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

Hi Carla,

Setting boundaries will help you. THIS IS WHERE YOU SET LIMITS ON HOW MUCH YOU will let others behaviour affect you. By saying I will not listen to you speak to me this way.

Also you can learn not to engage when he ACTS OUT. By not reacting. (THIS NEEDS PRACTICE) but as you will see we are all trying here.

At the end of the day Carla you can't control him, you can only control you. You can't force him to practice anger management but you can refuse to be present when he is acting out.

You have to be strong and know you don't deserve to be treated badly.

You have to learn to say NO when giving ends up being not taking care of yourself. YOU need to learn that what you do is just as valuable as what everyone else does.

(YOU ARE A PIECE OF THE LARGE JIGSAW THAT MAKES UP THE UNIVERSE IF YOU WERE MISSING IT WOULDN'T BE COMPLETE, REMEMBER THIS, YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO)

Good luck Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

Hi Catbox cats, Jay here and I haven't looked at the posts today yet so I guess I will post twice. I am just so angry with me. SHOUTED AND RAGED BIG time at the therapist and Jake today and it just made me look and idiot again, WHY???? can I never see this particular woman without ending up laterally shaking with rage and crying?????

I am never ever going back. Not unless God drags me by the ears. I can't afford another day like today. Felt like I needed therapy to recover from the therapy and the woman insisted on making four more appointments even though I told her I wasn't coming back.

I will never ever go back. I will never ever feel safe with her again. How dare she!!!!!!!!! Other less nice polite words......Oh boy I just hope I wouldn't be like this if it was Dr Irene who was the therapist. FakeMommy can be awful at times! It might be worse!

Why is this so bad for me?????Pain in therapy is one thing. Feeling a fool is another. I give up, The only therapy I will respect from now on is on this site. maybe therapy just doesn't work for me.

Perhaps I am the hopeless case.

Oh boy. I just have to vent how very mad I feel. WHY are there no English therapists who understand codependency?

Just now. I will never go near one again. (Dr Irene excepted) ever.

I despise myself too much when I leave.

Trubble! If you do ever prowl the boards with a blue pencil???? I'm sharpening one right now...

Otherwise HELP! jay

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

p.s the really bad bit is I can't stop the raging and spent almost all day in private calling her names. have I displaced all the rage I feel onto her? Probably.

I feel angry as I thought we were beginning to get somewhere too and now I just feel that it leaves me in a Dangerous emotional state. Jay It's not dangerous. It is yukky for sure.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. No new news on Dr. Psycho, other than the fact that his friend "Ted" was a friend of the coworker who killed himself. Ted and I began talking about Dr. Psycho. Ted is very supportive in my breaking up with him saying he was the "good, bad and ugly" and "u go girl". All of this time Ted was an advocate of Dr. Psycho, so it surprised me that he is not saying favorable things about his friend. Could they have a falling out? Ted asked me if Dr. Psycho was ever condescending or if he ever hit me.....I think he is also affected by the death of our coworker. Ted's reaction was very interesting.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

To the new person fighting loneliness, looking for who she is. All I can help with is what worked for me. I was in the same boat. When I separated I was very lucky that people came out of the woodwork to run to my aid. I was locked up so long I had no friends, or so I thought. Here's what happened to me. Work acquaintances would go out with me after work once in a while. Only for an hour or so but it was a start. Neighbors started inviting me to their parties, again I didn't stay long. Partying wasn't too comfortable then. Then I started joining networking groups for work. You meet a lot of people who love meeting people. Some of these people would go to dinner with me or have a drink somewhere. Still not for more than a couple of hours. Slowly I built a network of people who truly care about me. Now I'm starting to take 1 day seminars that interest me. I take day trips just to clear my head and get away. I'm on several committees for different groups and the kids school. You meet really good and kind people in these places. Take it slow and do what you want. Swimming, start going to an indoor pool. Reading, go to a big book store with a coffee shop. Always wanted to paint, take a class at the community college. Love animals, volunteer at a local shelter. Miss being with children, you neighborhood school would love some help or volunteer at a hospital. There are ways to help yourself slowly and at your pace. I hope this helps you find yourself. I keep a list in my wallet of things around town that I've always wanted to do. Restaurants, Museums, day trips, whatever. When I feel lonely, I get out the list and just go. I cross off what I've done and add some more. Freedom is good. Cinderella

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

Jay again. The doctor came out and gave me something to calm me down. He doesn't think that the therapy should have left me in this state and wasn't too happy about it. BTW I mean I don't think Dr Irene would be like my therapist I realised from my last post it looked as if I did! I meant I hoped I wouldn't get as hysterical. Is anyone out there to reply cos I could do with not feeling isolated just now! jay Keep scrolling...

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

Hello everyone!

I need some advice. I have a friend who is very special. She is so sweet and calm, etc. Recently she has looked into doing what I do to add income to her husbands. She is a wonderful mother of an 18 month old and would like to stay home and still help support the family. She was very interested but her husband refused to let her do it. It's funny because he has been telling her recently that he would like her to go to work so that they could have more money. She cried when she told me this because she doesn't want to be away from her son all day. Anyway, I got strange feeling that she might be verbally abused by her husband. Her neighbor - my friend also, confirmed my suspicions. Her friend says that she is complete denial and won't admit she's being abused. We also think she is being physically abused.

What's interesting is that I've come to know some of her sisters and they have also married into a "controlling" relationship. Does this mean that possibly their father was abusive and they are "co-dependent " personalities???

WHat can I do if she's in denial and doesn't want the help. She really needs it!

Holly

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

Hallo, everybody! Thank you Sharon, Jay, Cinderella and all who answered and listened to me. It helps a lot. Jay, I’m sorry for what happened at your therapist. Would you like to write it down at least a little bit about it? It helps just to write sometimes, isn’t it? Also we would understand your situation better. I personally still feel kind of uncertain toward therapists. Maybe it’s my upbringing or maybe I’m just extremely shy. Anyway, good luck and hugs to all! Almost Strong.

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, March 02, 2001

S1

HI Cinderella This is Barb, the lonely one. Your advice sounds like it is a good path to follow. Part of my problem is that I have also moved in the past 6 months and no no one in this area, which is an extremely small town. I liked many of your ideas, and have wanted to join some groups...I just haven't. The new job has really taken up so much of my time. I am hoping that starting this spring I can go slow.

Jay, I had times when I would get angry at my therapist also. I used to vent and then try to write down the things that made me mad, put it away for a few days and then relooked at them. Then I would look to see if the anger was justified or if it was the codependency kicking in. After while I also looked for patterns. Do you journal? I have found that journaling really helps me get the anger out.

What about panic attacks. Do any of you have those? I sure do. When I get lonely especially. I start to panic and feel so afraid.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001

S1

greetings i am so upset he is ranting again how can i get out of this

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox

I am just so tired of writing it and it is my fault as I write in 3 places on the site that I am confusing. But I think I have written some of it in an email to you, Sharon. I guess if I am honest the stuff with my daughter TRAUMATIZED me. I do wonder if I have post traumatic stress; but no counselor or doctor has ever agreed. What happened to your kid would wreck any mom Jay...

I am so tired of being thought strong and also a victim. Is this not a contradiction? Nope.

So tired of looking an idiot as I can't keep my cool when anything about my daughter comes up with my husband in any context.

So angry with myself for hating where I want to be forgiving and knowing hate destroys. Angry with myself for my own self destruct mechanism.

And really frightened by not being able to keep calm. Maybe some of it is hormonal and I should get the doctor to press for a quicker referral to the specialist. Hormonal or not, how about the Anger Management Book from above?

But what is was all about yesterday is there are 6 pages my daughter wrote with all that was going on for her. She refuses to let anyone read it and I think it NEEDS to be heard by my husband and the therapist wouldn't agree to this. It shows her need. Has some really hair raising stuff. Shows me as a good mother and disproves her accusations. I have to bear all the things in the letter alone. For a year now, Nobody has heard. What is in there is enough to send any mother round the bend and seriously worry about her daughter's mental state and my husband refuses to hear. I felt like the therapist was just one more person justifying his denial and leaving me still with ALL the worry and pain. If someone would read it then maybe she would get some HELP. Damned if you do; damned if you don't. Read her letter and you've stepped on her boundaries; don't read it and she gets to hold onto her pain...

I am starting to understand why other people use capitals so much!

I am just so tired of bearing all the pain alone and unsupported and sick that my husband puts his need for his daughter's "love" above her need to be well. He just won't cross her in any way and the two are in collusion and destroying the family. Maybe it would be abnormal if I DIDN'T rage. Yeah. But, it's just not productive when you do.

I am the one who set boundaries and he is the one who undermined them and the result is a child who is mentally sick, living alone and who along the way to this got raped by a 14 year old at the age of 15..Taking drugs, continually in really ill health. Not going to\ school and I was the only one who tried to get help for her.

In the next crisis with my daughter, my husband will ignore it while I listen and do whatever needs doing. She will not speak to me again and all I know is this will go on until the next crisis happens. This is not a good pattern. The two of you are working against each other vis a vis this kid.

As soon as there is no crisis, She will be daddy's girl again.

Oh yeah and the therapist didn't come out and say my husband's abuse of me was unacceptable the week before and that is what he needs to hear. He moved forward by saying "I am not proud of what I have done."????????????? Only ashamed or SORRY would mean anything to me.

How dare she expect me to think THAT was good enough. Now, Jay...

Yeah I am ANGRY, ANGRY, ANGRY again. Not good for me to be so angry and I guess I am going to have to face how my anger is just making everything worse. But I am so tired of working on myself when everything my husband does seems to be justified by others. So angry with myself for making me look the idiot. I would probably have thrown me out of the therapists office if the truth be told. She was certainly abused by me in the end. I think I was one step away from hitting her. Why DID she keep the session going and WHY is she refusing to not cancel appointments and why do I feel this morning, having complained to my line manager I will have to go back. Am I some kind of masochist.

Or am I afraid I am running from the pain? AM I JUST STUPID? None of the above.

I HATE this part of my nature that can't express things calmly any more. I HATE the fact I partly feel as if my anger is manipulative as it is about not getting what I so badly want.

I wouldn't have put up with me in any therapeutic situation I ever worked in and I don't want to say sorry.

What my husband is getting from me now can't be justified as it is abusive. By the end of last night I was screaming at him he had caused my daughter to be raped by his actions and swearing at him for giving me an Ice Cream.

This isn't justified. This is BAD and HE has a right to complain of abuse.

I am really frightened that the tables have turned. This victim anger is too big and way out of control. just now I think I despise what I have allowed myself to become. hate myself for my lack of self control. I also hate the feeling of being ashamed of my actions. I am a Christian for heavens sake. Although maybe it is time Christians were more real?

I don't even know who is the abuser now and who is the victim. What kind of lack of self knowledge is that? Jay Jay, what you're going through is normal victim rage stuff. As you begin to touch the anger that's been piling up for years, it is overwhelming. It's part of recovery Jay, and certainly better than what you used to do: get depressed. It won't stay like this though. You do need to work on anger management though. That will help everybody. More motivation: Help yourself in order to help your daughter.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001

S1

my ex got a high powered, paper-generating unreasonable lawyer. I am en pro per and I am scared. He is using this I am sure, to intimidate me. He switched lawyers on thurs and I got the name on fri and court is monday. He had a reasonalbe one before.

I would like to tell the judge I am intimidated by him and his attorney, and my paralegal told me I have a good chance of losing my kids, just because of her not because I am unfit. He emotionally abused me the entire time we were together, and he uses the kids to get ot me now. This was the reason for filing in the 1st place.

i don't think quickly on my feet, and he still can overpower me and get his way.

I am scared....help.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001

S1

This site casts men in a terrible light. For shame.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001

S1

By the way, what is a "codependent?" Sounds like self-defeating psycho-babble to me.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001

S1

dear catbox, Jay again and I feel like I am still blowing it. Husband brings flowers. have to remember here Jake doesn't ever say much. I mean to say thank you and out comes don't bring me flowers if you never say sorry. I hope you just get tired of being angry. I don't think I have the energy for any more anger and yet everything is coming out angry. have I just turned into a white ball of rage? I can't see this is getting me anywhere at all and it certainly isn't healing a marriage. Jay

p.s to the really terrified lady. i wish I had the right words. Could you keep speaking to your attorney and also make notes on everything your husband does.

To the person whose husband is ranting. I think the only thing you can do is walk away.

To Sharon, I've lost the thread. Which co worker killed himself. Maybe his friend has seen what Dr Psycho is like.

Just wondering Steve??? Asha has he stopped posting for good?

Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, March 03, 2001

S1

Dear Jay, just go out for a walk. Walk for an hour, two. Think or don't think if it's too painful. It helps me sometimes, just to walk. You sound desperate and you are not thinking clearly. You should calm down first, then you can decide what to do next. I didn't read back too far and don't know the whole situation about your daughter, but from what I know, it sounds like I would be angry and acting crazy too in a similar situation. It's so hard in a first place to decide what to do in this situation or that situation with kids and when your husband doesn't support you, it's even harder. Well, my husband says that I let my son do whatever he wants and that he is mama's little boy and because he is trying to discipline him, our son doesn't like to talk to him too much and loves me more etc. I just know one thing: when my husband talks to our son about something he didn't do right, most of the time he has a point, but, big BUT, he expresses himself in such humiliating disrespectful way, that our son doesn't listen and all he gets out of these conversations is bad feelings about his father and next time he has a problem or a question, he comes to tell his Mom and says "don't tell Daddy". Could it be sometimes in your case too? Again, I didn't read back too far and promise to do it as soon as I have time. I'm reading little by little now in between other things. Just calm down. You are smart and strong lady, you will figure out what to do. We are here to help. Good luck and hugs to all! Almost Strong.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, March 04, 2001

S1

AArgh! jay here again and calmer. Went for a very long drive yesterday trying to leave my brain at home but as we all really know you can't run from yourself so I found it had stowed away and come with me.....But I did feel calmer for the break. Good. When angry, the absolutely positively BEST way to chill is exercise. It also reduces depression!

Then blew it big time again this morning and went off to church feeling like that was about the last place on the planet I was supposed to be which is stupid if you think about the main bit of the Christian message being about Christ dying for sinners; so presumably that is who should be going to church......

Anyway, in the end and I hate this so much as I WANT to shout and scream at Jake still. I had to say that however justified the anger is and was the lack of self control in expressing it was mine.

I don not like thinking I lack self control. I don't like thinking ±I let my anger control me and that I got out of balance; but I am not prepared to have and even bigger argument with the almighty and so I am going to accept that if Jake is the abuser: my behaviour these last few days has been abusive and I need to sort that for my own self respect.

But it sure does grate he always gets off scott free and has reason to justify his actions...........Yep. Dr Irene is right. Victim anger is huge. time I guess to stop beating myself up and move on and hope I can do a bit better for the rest of the day. jay Yes. And you will blow it again. And again. Each time, notice what you did, and try to do better next time. That's all. No beating yourself up allowed.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, March 04, 2001

S1

I've been here several times before, but not for several months. What brought me back? Another descent into hell. Another trip on the downside of the Yoyo effect.. except this time it landed me in the hospital w/ tremors. (I had a kidney infection as well that added to it but the majority of the tremor was simply nerves) That's where it happened... that straw that broke the camel's back. I had just finished talking to a psychiatrist, agreeing that I need to slow down a bit. (I am a full time student and a mother of three) The doc walked out and my spouse (who had been sitting there the entire time in silence) begins singing "sometimes you feel like a nut sometimes you don't" Oh how I cried, but afterward, when my mind cleared it really hit me... I don't deserve this kind of treatment. It's been twelve years of this, twelve years of living on a yoyo and nothing will ever change until I make them change. Time I made those plans but how... oh how do I do it? Go back to live w/ my folks?.. with three kids? Where does one begin? When do you get over the fear? Okay... I've dumped now.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, March 05, 2001

S1

Dear Mother of three.

Oh boy! You and me both. Our husbands drive us to a point where mind and body can take no more with their inane behaviour and then turn round and call us nuts. They look supportive to the outside world and then make out to others WE have the problem. Who wrote the manual for these guys? Giggle!

He started singing? THAT! UGH. And of course they know we have no way forward. It is the kids that he can and will use, He knows it will be oh so difficult to leave.

Jake has decided I am mentally ill as I lost it with him and the therapist. Er, so the Doctor and the Hospital are not able to do their job????? Funny: but I don't see any straight jackets round here...oh yes, according to him I am also manic depressive......Funny, but the psychologist is so convinced of my sanity he signs me off. The day hospital refuses to take me even when I was distraught: I am managing to socialize and I haven't noticed any funny looks. This is the supreme form of non physical abuse.

Even worse they are so "concerned" about us.

Jake thinks he has the professionals convinced. THEY have a very different picture.

My guess is if his nonsense is getting you to this stage then a refuge would help.

No we don't deserve it and we shouldn't put up with it

I just wish I knew the way forward for myself too. You do. You've been doing it too.

jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, March 05, 2001

S1

Dear Jay,

I do understand about your anger. I thought I was angry before, but these last weeks I have really felt I could kill and start a war, for no apparent reason. It's scary isn't it? But don't make it harder by being angry at yourself. Try to be as rational as you can under the circumstances and try to take breaks and feel good. I know this is hard to do, but being tired make everything so much worse. As for going to church, I think you are very right to do that. Not cause you are such a sinner, but because church is a place of tranquility and cause God gives us the right to be who we are at any given moment. I go when I need to ‘rest my soul', even though I am not church going. But a church is a place where people can put there sorrow and leave it be, if only for a short while, and that as what you need most now I think.

Maybe you should stop fighting, let thngs be as they are, let them develop as they are.

I found out that for me, being angry has a lot o do with being scared. I am scared to be hurt again, and I do not really no how to deal with it. That's when I get angry, cause anger gives me at least some kind of power, as if it can ward off the pain. It can't in the end and I know it. but it is hard to find other ways to deal with it.

Lots of hugs and love, and keep believing in yourSelf and you strength. You will get trough this anger, and will find other ways to protect yourself. You bet!

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, March 05, 2001

S1

Dear Asha,

I am sorry you are having so much financial problems. I know these panic attacks can be very hard to deal with, cause they are soooo illogical. When it hits, you just KNOW it is not panic, but the truth. Even though what is left of your rational mind tells you it is not. True old saying: "Face the fear and the fear will disappear."

For me in such situations (financial) the only sane thing to do is take a deep breath and make A PLAN. And for the panic, I usually try to ask myself what will be the worst thing that can happen, and then try to figure out how bad that really is. And most of the time this helps, cause the worst thing I can imagine in my panic, usually is something I can handle if I think it through. It's kind of forcing myself to face to worst.

I an glad things with Steve are better. Think of that too. I have come to believe that God does give us no more then we can handle at a certain time. First Steve, now time for the money. You will get trough this was too. Lost of love and keep up.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, March 05, 2001

S1

To the poster who doesn't know what CO-DEPENDENT MEANS?

It is a person who allows others needs and wants to take president over their own, Sometimes because they buy into fear, obligation or guilt.

Co-dependents also are OVERLY HELPFUL even when others don't want their help.

The HEALTHY OPTION COMPARED TO CO-DEPENDENT is to take care of your self first and help others if they ask you to and you can help them without not taking care of yourself.

Eg if you are very tired and you say NO to someone and they badger you, If you then say YES you are not taking care of your self.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, March 05, 2001

S1

Hi Jay,

I am sending you a skip full of hugs.

JAY have you also patted yourself on the back for getting up and facing you made a mistake, but you got up and are working now to how to improve. THIS IS IMPORTANT this is positive!!

STOP! dust yourself off and continue. YOU ENGAGED, YOU GOT ANGRY, YOU BLEW!! Now what are you going to do? All you can do. Stand up and take some time to rest. Then get on with your life!!

JAY I blew last weekend, remember? And I spent a whole week analyzing it to death. WE all have our moments. BUT doesn't mean we aren't loveable. I know what you mean when you say your conscience won't let you off the hook. THAT is okay!!

NOW have you listened to your anger's message? USE it constructively and set your boundaries. WHAT are you going to accept? In a therapy session if you feel your triggers can you say "I need to go to the bathroom" Then go and cool off for a few minutes. Or, if you feel the need, go home.

The other thing I have realised is that my partner IS NEVER GONNA BE ABLE TO BE SORRY ENOUGH. Giggle! Ain't that the truth! So what have I done with all the anger: Well I have now set boundaries on what I will accept. (STILL TRYING TO DO THIS, sometimes I unsure whether things are acceptable)

JAY I also feel like you at times, very angry about the past, but I've realised No amount of sorry's is gonna change the wasted time so now I know that I don't want to waste anymore time on past hurts. (I am stuck in current ones though.) I also though find it hard to admit my role. I did last weekend with the cinema incident. I feel like if I admit I did wrong by nagging. He won't admit his bit and he will blame me. THE PROBLEM is he did admit he had a nasty stubborn streak sometimes. BUT I still found it hard to admit my bits. Giggle! So cool to be honest!

The only time things go smoothly in conflicts is if we both admit our sides. We have managed to do this, but I first had to cool down and sit quietly.

JAY I think you both have to agree to work towards solutions. Hard work YES I Know!!

*SO perhaps you get clear on what you don't want? Then you say what is okay.

I found out that we could mull over the past forever, but unless we worked on how we'd sort out things there on, we kept going in circles.

*Does your therapist work with you two on how you both could work together problem solving, without blame?

*Also Jay maybe you could work on your buttons in a therapy session on your own without husband some weeks?

REMEMBER WE LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES JAY, IN FACT WE LEARN MORE FROM OUR MISTAKES. So be gentle on yourself. GOD STILL LOVES YOU.

Look forward, now you know what one or more of your buttons are, so now you can work on them. SEE THIS AS A PLUS. Things are revealed when we need to work on them. SO DON'T see this blow up as negative, see it for what lessons it holds.

AND JAY remember you've come along way in taking personal responsibility, and maybe throwing sand in sandpits isn't always a bad thing. Especially since it may of been the only way the therapist learnt about these buttons. WHAT DO YOU THINK?" God always sends away. Maybe this was his way of making sure that the therapist knew about these things. Maybe they wouldn't have been seen otherwise.

EVERYTHING happens for a reason. Maybe God thought Jay needed to show some of her anger, so she knew that she still had hurts to heal.

JAY You hit a bump in the road. SO walk over it now and let it go. I bet you learn heaps about you and gro