Comments for Catbox 22

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

21 edited. Finally.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox,

Well, the silent treatment I was getting ended and I had a pleasant, non-confrontational, just-the-news conversation with my ex. The conversation did not contain any statement from him to the effect that he was getting therapy, and I didn't ask. In other words, last week's clearly-articulated condition of us staying together - that he get therapy by himself - was overlooked. I can see that I will have to ratchet up the communication. How do I do this? Even after everything I have written about him on this site, I am still trying to accomplish this without leaving. How do I give him time and space to get to therapy "on his own" without "making" him do it?

I can see that he is trying to give me what I want - i.e. space - but the fact is that I want LESS space with a HEALTHY person. The only reason I have limited his calling and contact is because of his temper and abuse, and negativity about my life and my work. It's clear that he is trying to make me feel bad about what I'm doing so I will drop everything and come and be with him. THAT'S why I want space! I'd really rather be with a loving supportive guy and then I wouldn't need so much space. I'd be happy to talk to somebody supportive every day.

I re-read the posts, and I can see what Dr. Irene said about him "pacifying" me. That's exactly how this "pleasant" conversation felt, and I didn't feel pacified, I felt irritated and trapped.

Dr. Irene said I might have to out and out leave him, so I guess I better prepare myself. There are couples on this site who have made it through without breaking up - do you have any advice for me? There is, of course, a list of reasons why I would want to stay with this person as well as the acute reasons why I absolutely don't want to stay. I look forward to reading everyone's input.

Thanks, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Where the couples on the site make it through both are prepared to admit they are part of the problem. Perdita, I can tell you that in a marriage you need someone who has respect for what you are doing. It is really hard to live with someone who is disinterested and it gets harder. Marriage seems to me to give the abuser an invitation to give in and impose a reign of terror. Whether passive aggressive or openly physical it unleashes the worst.

Much though I love my own husband. (Yes, I have concluded I do so the anger must be going). I know now that if I could start over again with the knowledge I have now then I would have really worked a lot harder on whether or not he was the right person for me.

Just disinterest alone is very hard to live with and it doesn't make for any kind of happiness. Without mutual respect I think there can be no happiness at all. Having it all on one side is hard work and wears you down.

dear Sharon, Hugs and how did your date go? keep strong! Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Dear Jay Sharon here. Well, my date last night turned out "pretty good" well almost. We met at a local coffee place, talked for about 30 minutes, then he asked me if I wanted to walk across the street for dinner and a blues concert. I felt comfortable enough with it, so I said sure. I mean, he seemed nice enough. So, we had a nice dinner and at 9pm we walked over and watched "Mick Martin" for about 2 hours. Around 10:30 he asked me, during the concert, "what was one of my sexual fantasy." Mind you, we weren't touching or anything, just sitting next to each other. I think he hit this subject a little too early for me!!! Even though I didn't say it, I thought "RED FLAG". The guy is definitely smooth. I'm not looking for smooth. I'm looking for real. Anyway, at 11pm I informed him I was getting sleepy so he walked me to my car. He was a little stand-offish, though he gave me a hug and told me that he'd call me on Monday. Do I think I'll hear from him again? No, I don't think so. I presented myself as a lady; I think he was looking for a quick thing. Maybe he'll change his mind. But for me, if it doesn't feel right, look right, act right, IT'S NOT RIGHT!!! Then to take it one step further, Why am I still so hooked in by Dr. Psycho. I have made no contact - 19 days today - and I have not heard from him either. I really am trying to stay strong here, but its hard. I get sooooo lonely!! But I miss him, though I know I will seriously regret contacting him. He will be a real ass about things. I really don't even know why I miss him - he was so strange acting, so cruel, so "weird" - he did have a unique sense of humor. Yea, maybe that's it. I have no clue. All I know its taking all I have to not call him. So, thanks for the support.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon,

STAY STRONG!!! We're there with you!! Easy to get hooked on Mr. Psycho. Psychos plan it that way.

Dear Jay, thanks for your advice. I was feeling like my future marriage might become a lock down. Today I called to mark a time for us to talk because I was that unhappy. I called him at work, since he works 18 hours a day there's not many times and places to get a hold of him, and I wanted like I said to "make an appointment." As an aside, the times that I could talk to him were getting narrower and narrower, because I even got yelled at for sending "pissy emails" if there was anything serious in them! The squeeze was already on!

Well guess what. He was cold when he answered, which wasn't that unusual, then he said "I didn't think you had my work number." After a deep breath double take, I realized HE THOUGHT I WAS ANOTHER WOMAN!!!!! Talk about a great cue to break things off. I asked him who he thought I was and he said he thought i was an ex who had called last weekend (which he didn't share with me at the time). I said that I was very unhappy, that I couldn't trust him, that I couldn't come and be with him under these circumstances, and that I had called to make a time when we could talk. He had already started screaming at me about calling him at work, and that he was a good person. I told him he needed six months of therapy before we could talk again, but I don't know if he heard me because he was screaming and then he hung up. I called again to reinforce the message that it was over - or maybe this was the second call - communication gets so messed up so fast with him screaming over me like that that I don't remember - then I had to call a third time to ask that he be ethical about the stuff of mine that's at his house until I could come and get it (I am out of town for a few months). So I caught him messing up, which made him instantly rabid.

Okay, Sharon, let's both be strong now. I won't be answering any communication from him until I am assured that he is in therapy. So I will be strong with you. If you ever feel like calling YOUR Mr. Psycho, post a note and I will tell you not to! And please do the same for me!

Imagine mixing up the voice of your fiancée - three year relationship - with the voice of another woman. I keep thinking I have lived everything with this guy and then he surprises me again.

hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 03, 2001

S1

Hi, all!

It's impossible for me to keep up anymore! So I'll comment on a couple of things then say something about myself.

First Theressa, awhile back you asked what is meant by lack of center. Jay gave you a great answer! I remember a therapist telling me that to be "centered" means that you have an unshakable, solid sense of who you are. When I saw my Dr. Z last week, she said that she senses something different in me, like I'm more sure of who I am and am comfortable with it. Hooray! I guess I'm getting centered!

Sharon, as awful and weird as that guy is, he is at least familiar. That's probably what you are missing. I know in regard to myself, if my H doesn't react to something with hostility, when he does or says something understanding and rational, I feel real funny inside, sort of unsettled. Strange, huh! But not so strange when I consider that hostility, suspicion, and hatefulness are what I'm used to. As painful as it is, it is predictable and familiar. I've often wondered if i could deal with a new and improved husband--too strange! I guess I could if I was a new and improved Becky, and that's what I'm working on. So stay strong and remind yourself that it's okay to be with yourself for awhile; in fact, it's probably better because you can concentrate on you. I've read your posts about this guy and he sounds downright sadistic and warped! It's a shame he's a psychologist--just gives skeptical people like my h reason to dismiss all psychologists as bogus.

As for myself: I got icky news. My therapist is going into private practice at the end of the month. I can't follow her because I can't afford 100.00/hr. So I'll stay at the clinic. She has another person lined up to take me. Darn! really, I wish i could quit therapy altogether, but i seem to need this once a month touchstone.

Also, I've given a lot of thought to how to get my life back. I think I've been so tied up in this marriage thing that I've had little energy for anything else. I'm amazed I got through school and am working! But I want more. I'd like to take some courses in my field. I'd love a degree or even certificate in Reading and/or Adult Ed. I'm looking into internet courses. The nearest universities are an hour or more away and I'm not up for that now. I'd also like to get back into writing. I used to write all the time, even had 2 stories published. But that was long ago, after my second son was born I had no time or energy. But my kids are grown, and I'd like to divert the energy I've put into trying to single handedly save my marriage into writing. My brain feels dry though! Any ideas?

If I ever get my own mess resolved, I'd love to work with abused women in some manner.

That's all for now! Hope everyone is having a good weekend.

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Hi PALS, B. here,

Just a very quick note:

Jay, I'm ever so glad you're doing so fine! You sound really strong. Concerning Sepia: you can't "recommend" it, because Homeopathic remedies are given personally, after a personal diagnosis of your personality and situation at the time. So you could be Sepia, but I could be Pulsatilla, see?

Theressa, You are doing great too! So glad to read about you and your ex! I felt, too, that the "fling" was doomed... but you know, you had something to learn here.

As for cleaning and being late: your ex is partly right, but that is not the point. The point is that you are now getting yourself emancipated from the reign of fear. Part of it is being laid back. You need it to heal. You need to learn to flow instead of to control all the time, and what you are going through is part of it. So just tell him this is how you are right now. You are learning to live comfortably with your self. Cleaning "too much" is also disrespectful - of the Self. Waste of energy. You are not perfect. OK. So what. You are human (Surprise! Surprise!). So being late inconveniences him. it's his problem. Take your time, cope with what you can, one thing at a time. You are doing great.

Love, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Dear B, yes you qre right. I 'm a bit new to homeopathy having always been a lot more keen on aromatherapy.

Dear Becky. You sound really good. Strong and not depressed. Adult Education is a lot of fun and doesn't carry the hassles of teaching children. And go for it on the writing...If you got published before you will have some great stuff in you to get published now! I think I am going with my friend's theory about creativity more and more. You do sound better, like your therapist said, like you are more centred.

Dear Perdita, I am sorry things happened like they did for you but I can't help wondering if you had a lucky escape..

Dear Sharon. Keep strong!

Dear all, Hugs. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

I am very torn. On the one hand, I try not to engage, knowing when I do that I will yell back. On the other hand, I feel I am being overly objective and thinking even if I yell back, I am an abuser as accused? Could this ambivalence be due to having parents that never apologized when I approached them to tell them they hurt me, instead I get and continue to get that I am being disrespectful (when I call them on it?)? Current issue: My husband woke me up the other night, then came into bed and hugged me in a way that pinned me down, I yelled for him to let me go four times before he did. He claims I yelled at him first and he did let me go (regardless if it too 4 yells) claiming I could have gotten free. I have since moved his clothes upstairs and told him if he refuses to acknowledge his behavior inappropriate and do something about his need to control me rather than himself, we are headed for divorce. He then threatens me by saying he will make me pay for damage due to him getting a vasectomy (although I had no other choice, the pill gave me migraines/high breast cancer risk, diaphragm did not work due to tipped uterus, IUD could not get in, too painful); he would make me pay him percentage of appreciation earned on the house I own that he does not pay mortgage on or contribute....I know these are threats, why am I even feeling the slightest bit threatened? Please help, your straight forward commentary is very useful. PS I also told him to find a place in two weeks or pay rent, he refuses, so I said I would seek out a peaceful restraining order (SO he counters with he will seek one for me and said he would put a bruise on himself to show I hit him???) HELP>

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Dear CatBox,

Please help me! I posted earlier that I'm leaving my husband as soon as my income tax check comes in (hopefully soon!). I think I made a mistake in telling my husband that I'm leaving. Now he's decided to leave (this is a rented house) which he's done several times before during our 12 years together. It's like as soon as he realized I was serious, he has to get the jump on me.

Is this what controller/abusers do? Is this him trying to control the situation? He's gone all day with his brother and other family members and comes home with new clothes, other new items and tells me he's glad he's free now and starting to live life and he's just taking care of himself.

Mind you, we have been working a small business together until the beginning of January when he decided my son and I were not doing enough so he took control of the money and threatened to kick my son out. That's when I decided I had had enough, this was not the first time HE'S decided this about us.

I became the outcast of his family a few years back when I tried to tell certain members of his family about his physical abuse of me and his controlling and his blaming of me and my son for what HE does. They would either agreed with him that it was my son's fault or they would refuse to acknowledge me or what I was telling them. He has them convinced I am crazy and that's why he has had to leave us.

I know I'm making the right decision to leave, in fact I wished I would have left a long time ago. I just feel so hurt and frustrated and angry and lonely watching him "liberate" himself from us when HE'S been abusive to US! He has always turned things around to make me and my son the "crazy" ones, the "lazy" ones, the "problem" with our marriage and family.

The last few days I'm feeling lonely, afraid, unsure of myself, hurt by his "glad I'm free" attitude. I do feel better for writing this and please will someone respond to me? I need help sometimes to see things more clearly. Thanks, Laura Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

Laura Anne again,

I forgot to mention that my husband is an alcoholic and is drinking every night now. He is also addicted to Vicadin (pain killer) and bounces back and forth between the two. He's also bipolar and who knows if and when he takes that medication? This helps me to realize that he may act and tell me he's so happy to be rid of us but his escaping tells me otherwise.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 04, 2001

S1

to whoever wrote that her SO will sue because he got a vasectomy:

What a joke. I doubt a case like that has ever gone to court. Gee, did you hold a gun to his head and the surgeon's head in order to get them to do it. You gotta laugh at how low he is stooping to get control over you! I would love to see him tell that to Judge Judy! She would likely say: "Excuse me but are you crazy?" (to him of course)

Sandra

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

SHARON,

A word of warning, if you've read any of my posts learn from them. I ignored my strong held values. EVEN when I knew deep inside that I wasn't being true to myself I ignored them. I made a big mistake, I slept with another guy. I threw all caution to the wind. People here told me, in fact I told myself, but I wanted attention so I sought it out and realise now how wrong I was. JUST BE Careful your not just filling in a hole with the new guy.

ALSO Sharon it is early days for me, though now I am back with my X, things feel different. As I say early days. BUT the respect he has shown me up to now, even in areas like when I said I don't want to sleep together until I feel okay, he said FINE. This time it isn't like the other times I went back to him. YOU see this last time we split, I moved out and was serious, I totally detached from him. WHAT HAPPENED HE WOKE UP, he saw what only he could see, HOW POORLY HE WAS BEHAVING. He saw the ABUSE. He saw what he had to lose and also what he had to give to make it work.

He is working on changes, we have been so honest with each other. Things I never dared share with him, I did, even about me being weak and sleeping with the new guy I met. In the past he'd have yelled and cursed and abused me. He didn't he listened respectfully without anger and abuse, he wasn't defensive or blaming, he said "It hurts but I know I played a role myself. We can work through this". YOU KNOW I NEVER dreamt we'd be where we are at now. I FEEL much stronger. Though I am taking one day at a time.

I know I don't deserve poor behaviour. AND also now I no longer feel it is about dependency. I want to be where I am!! LACK OF communication can be catastrophic, but also before this can happen you have to show you mean business.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Hi All,

Thanks Jay for clarifying what centering meant, I THOUGHT this but needed to make sure.

B, Thanks for the support! I've always had a problem with know what is okay, and healthy for me. I tend to go in extremes either way. I either write lists and feel controlled. OR I am too laid back and feel frustrated that I never get anything done.

How can I get balanced? YOU see I want to have respect for myself and I expect this includes being in a healthy environment. So not tidying up is one of these things, ISN'T IT???

Also about the lateness, the other day I wanted to be on time, I was excited about getting home cuz my partner was coming around. It felt different than 7 months ago when I resented being on time. I DID IT OUT OF LOVE where as I used to do it out of FEAR.

Isn't it funny the pardoxes of life, the mindset and how you think can totally change the reason for doing something.

LOTS of these changes just seem to have fell into place. I am one minute thinking gosh I will never love me enough to speak up and say what I want. THEN I DID!! It is as if it happens just at the right time, it smoothly switches gears. DO YOU FIND THIS??

Thanks Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox,

Jay - thanks for your words on marriage. You and others have said that both partners need to acknowledge responsibility, and this is what I have never gotten from my ex. Even the other day, when he had mistaken me for another woman on the phone (I just find that so ASTONISHING!), he was yelling about being a "good person" as if that was the most important part of the communication, and like he desperately needed to reinforce his self-perception. I think that by telling him I would like him to get therapy, he thinks I am saying he is a bad person. I feel so sad when he hears things that way. I think he knew this break was coming, because he was really abusive at Christmas and this was finally something I decided not to overlook. Last week, on the phone, he was all sad and I asked why and he said "I want to know when you are leaving me." I just told him he was acting like a victim. I had already told him what I needed for the relationship to continue - so I guess this was my answer. I would not get what I needed!

Over the last month, I have given him this site, told him I was doing another tutorial on the web, and gave him several of the most pertinent links, mostly from this site but also from others. He said he was reading the sites I gave him. So I know he has been feeling like he is a bad person, and facing what I feel to be abusive behavior. I don't think he believes he is abusive - I think he thinks I am mean or nuts (and yet wants to stay with me - what is that about?).

But thinking about the right person - yeah, he probably isn't. There are some things that are really important to me, like my religion, that he doesn't share and I have always felt like he might try to remove me from my participation in my religion through making me late for things, belittling my religion and religion in general (he is an atheist), etc etc. So I need to listen to those red flags and pick someone who shares in the things that I value.

Jay, I also feel like i had a lucky escape because he gave me an "exit cue" by mistaking me on the phone for another woman - but I have had many such cues and some a lot worse than this, and I haven't taken the cues until now. I also wish that I could have had a calm conversation with him about why I was unhappy enough to leave, but what was I thinking? I've never had a calm conversation with him about relationship issues!! Why would it start now?!

I was re-reading the posts, and one from Lisa said that yelling made her bf feel better. I was glad to finally understand that because that sure seemed to be what was going on with my ex. Yelling is a smokescreen, and something to deflect responsibility from him, a distraction - is it even a physical catharsis for someone under tension? I've never been with someone who yelled and screamed so much. It was actually somewhat fascinating because it was such a PERFORMANCE. When he raged, I would just sit back and watch, because there was no way to communicate with him while he was raging. It always looked like some kind of altered state of consciousness, like someone "running amok" - that Indonesian psychiatric syndrome. Is rage some kind of altered state? It sure got scary, and scary isn't interesting.

Sharon, I am kind of sad and missing the familiarity of an intimate, and I also feel sorry for this guy. This is sort of a pattern, and I usually feel sad and sorry, and then I call or I am receptive to overtures. But when I tell people I broke up with him, I get the "why?" question. You know what? This makes me real strong, because if I explained to people why I broke up with him (revealing behavior of his that I have been concealing all this time), and how long I have been putting up with this treatment from him, everyone I know would lose respect for me if they knew I had put up with this kind of stuff I have put up with. Try imagining telling everything to your friends and family, and imagine what they would think of *you*. I use this exercise because obviously my own gut feeling and loss of respect for myself was never enough! Don't call him, Sharon!

Theressa, what an upper your story is. I am so happy that your ex seems to be doing some real thinking and working on himself. I wish you all the best and hope that my story ends as well!

Hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear All, Sharon here. Thank you for all of your support. Major hugs to everyone here who is helping me through this. Its been 22 days since Dr. Psycho and I last spoke. I have not called him!! I am really getting happy about myself again. Its like a major milestone. Unfortunately, we live real close to each other. I noticed he wasn't home this weekend, but got back yesterday....I also noticed that he is NOT going to work. I think something is brewing on that front.....this guy has a Ph.D. (1992) in psychology, and the state hired him 4 years ago without a license. For some reason, he has not gotten his license. The state now has a provision that new psychologists hired must have a license within 2 years in order to continue to work for the state. He works at a young men's institution for youthful offenders. His job has always and forever stressed him out. I think either they fired him, are investigated him, he stressed out and went postal (he has 2 lawsuits against the department) or taking vacation for a few weeks. Knowing him since he always has high drama in his life, he probably has something brewing. So, whatever it is, I hope he is getting "paid back" for all of the sleepless nights, mental cruelty, crazymaking behavior and "crap" he put me through. I hope its finally hitting him BIG TIME. Oh my, is this my anger coming out?

Thank you all for your support!!!!!!! I wish we lived closer and could start a support group!!! HUGS!!

Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear all, Still hanging strong.....the guy that I met for coffee last Friday? The one that I wrote about that asked me about my "sexual fantasy.? He emailed me just now with a concern - he said that he felt as though he had too much sexual desire for my taste. ??? Well, you don't just "give it up" at the first meeting.......so, like I said, "red flag."

Dr. Psycho is at work today (he works across the street from me). He goes in late these days. I wonder if he won his lawsuit...mmmmmmmmmm. He always is victimized, one way or another, and yet he is the one who abuses people and anything else he can get without working for it. I'm learning about "these kind." I have not been playing the single field for very long (3 years, but half of that time was with him) and I am finding out - there are lots of abusers out there! Is there any decent men out there?

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Omigod Sharon,

You are in a really yucky physical position - living close to Psycho Guy AND working across the street? Did I get that right? It would take Super Human to not glance here and there to see where he was and if he came in and if he was home, and all. I would never say, "STOP!" because it's natural to look up and down the street! The day will come that you don't notice, I promise you!

But, isn't he also the guy who tried to run you off the road or something? It sounds like he is heading for some kind of breakdown. (or do ALL abusers always look like they're about to have a breakdown?) If you stay mum, you might get relief by him getting fired and moving away or something. If not, can you move apartments? At least you wouldn't be so close ALL the time.

Please stay strong and stay away from him. He doesn't just sound unhealthy, he sounds dangerous!

Kathleen

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

PS Sharon,

What the coffee guy said to you about him having too much sexual desire for your taste was a challenge. Don't bite. He wants you to feel like you are frigid or behind the times or something. He was trying to excuse his crass behavior by making you wrong. I hope you told him that not everyone wants to jump in bed with a first date, and that if he hadn't been such a pushy dog he might SOMEDAY have had a chance with you!

I always think of great things to say the next day...

Kathleen

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Kathleen, ohmigod is right. Yes, Dr. Psycho works right there. We both live and work within a mile from each other. I hate it! However, it does make life interesting at times. We have not ran into each other yet. But yes, he is the guy that did the high speed chase in the neighborhood last Sat. night. I did file a police report.

The "Mr. Coffee sex man" from what I can surmise, said that he felt that with my lack of comment from what he was asking me about my "sexual fantasy" gave him the indicator that I wasn't "wild enough for his tastes". Well, I got rid of him!! I emailed him and told him that my instincts were telling me to feel "odd" about what was being presented here, and go find someone else. Whatever! God! Good thing we never got close!

I am meeting some new people for coffee that have responded to my ad. I use a lot of discretion - I don't give out too much info about myself - and we need in public - usually for coffee. Its a diversion for me so I am not thinking about contacting Dr. Psycho. I know that in time "this will pass" where I won't be thinking about him so much. All I have to do is remember all of the weird crazymaking behavior - and that he was not a healthy man - he will abuse the next one who comes along who wants intimacy with him. He is not capable of love and he truly was narcissistic. Just gotta stay strong, strong, strong. And - I've lost 3 lbs!!!!!! 17 more to go!!!!!

Love, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Hi all, gosh how many of us are there here in the catbox now? I couldn't post for a couple of days as my computer went down. Actually, it may have been a good thing as it kind of took the edge out of me and Jake getting on badly otherwise. He very kindly spent ages fixing it. I realised I do like him a bit (well a lot more than I thought I did.

dear Very Torn, You are feeling threatened as he threatened you. He treated you in an abusive way both with actions and words. And how silly those words sound to the outsider. Nobody gets damages because they agreed to a vasectomy. Can you get some counseling and perhaps plan a strategy to be free of this man? I would still get that restraining order and let the police know he threatened to bruise himself.

Dear Laura Anne, Tell yourself the things your husband is doing are because of his insecurities and ignore it. One thing I don't understand is is your son an adult? Just now you have to do whatever is right for you. You are right about the escaping.

dear Perdita, I think you did the right thing. I guess the hardest bit is the loss of a companion and tht takes time to heal. If you have doubts, just come back and look at your post. Even so I hope your ex can find a way to face himself.

Dear Sharon,

The anger comes out but it does go away in the end. I would myself find it hard to do this, but taking the focus away from Dr Psycho and onto good things to think about/ do might be helpful as who knows what has happened to him. The less you can care, the less important he will seem. Glad you got rid of that other guy.

Dear Theressa, Good things do happen! You and your ex and you sound strong and a lot happier. It's just so nice to see things do sometimes work out so that a relationship gets some healing.

As for me,

Kitt found a boyfriend and I haven't seen her since. So my hair is o.k but half finished and I hope nobody notices!!! So hard letting go. But she is friendly and polite and I thin there is a lot of hope for us both.

I went to the solicitor today. It was really weird as when I made the appointment I was all poised to divorce. Then there was that prayer meeting....and I have been praying ever since that if I was meant to stick around I could feel something positive towards Jake.

Somehow in trying to talk me into divorce the solicitor managed to make me want to do the opposite. She really had got things right on what was happening but it kind of ended with me saying No thank you, I don't want to divorce him. feeling sure that this wasn't the way forward for us. Maybe it does have to do with the centering. (How ever you spell it). Perhaps I can like Jake as I don't feel the need for him to be any particular way for me any more.

Jay

Perhaps it is also about feeling strong and worthwhile as a person again.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon,

I like this response: "My instincts are telling me to feel "odd" about what is being presented here." You honored yourself, you honored your intuition, you referred to behavior rather than the person. Great response. I am going to borrow it!

Thanks, Kathleen

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Perdida: Yes, let's be strong here. From your post, the phone behavior from this guy is the SAME as what I got from Dr. Psycho. You call, you want to reach out, and then they go nuts. And when you hang up, you feel worse. They are like animals on the phone. And the screaming! Where does that all come from? It sounds so frustrating, so mean, so demeaning. And when that would happen to me - I felt so hopeless, powerless and very depressed. More frustrated with the situation because you are dealing with someone who either 1) has something to hide 2) just does not care 3) is in a rage "just because". I don't have the answers - I just know how you feel. He probably is in contact and may be involved with another woman. That's why he answered it that way. And it could be why he asked you about when you were going to leave him. These people really don't have any control or self esteem - that's why they act like they do - you and I really are the ones who hold the control. However, it doesn't feel that way due to their abusive nature. They hate the way we make them feel. But this guy could very well be involved, or on the verge, with someone else, and he is trying to push you out of the picture. You have made him accountable for his poor behavior. And he hates it. Really really try hard to stay away. And encourage me to do the same. I did something stupid this afternoon. I emailed him at work (Dr. Psycho) - on the subject line I just wrote "hope you are doing OK" - that's all I wrote. That's all he gets. I know he won't respond as he is still punishing me. He hates how I make him feel. He feels vulnerable when I reach out to him - I also have made him accountable for his abuse - he doesn't like to be reminded. He wants a new victim to push around so he can forget about his past victims. Dr. Psycho wasn't home all weekend either, so I'm sure he has new victims. Either that or he went to LA to visit his parents. He has a new personal ad out in our local rag here so I know he is "going without." He's such a cad. I need to go to therapy tonight as I've been posting today feeling alot of anger. However, when I look at my calendar with 22 days crossed off of it, I feel pretty good. I guess I screwed up today with the email I sent him though. Oh well, at least it was not by phone. He'd scream at me too like your guy did to you. Let's fight this and be strong woman, OK? We deserve better!

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

I am at this very strange stage in my life that I don't think I have ever been at before...........I am happy, happy, happy, and it has nothing to do with anyone else!!!! I like me and I like knowing that I have all these options when I don't! (Like do something about it!) It is so "freeing". And I never, ever thought I would be at this stage. I love one of those expressions from the "Buddha" book about worrying about yourself, and not other people. Now when people do something that annoys me I wonder why it is, and what is saying about me as a person..........much better than bitching about other people. Anyway, I'm glad the ride has led to this self-discovery. It was worth it!

Deb

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear CatBox,

Thank you Jay for responding to my post, it feels like I'm being heard and feels comforting. Today I'm not bothered by what my husband's plans are and I think you are right about it being about his insecurities. Regardless, it's his reality, he has the right to live his own life anyway he chooses. I'm learning to accept that now. I didn't always (and still don't sometimes) because I really thought I knew how to change (fix) him! And that I should! As I read that, I'm laughing at myself!!!! It feels really good to be able to laugh at my own faults because I have such a tendency to beat myself up for anything I thought was a fault in me or mistakes I've made.

Yes, my son, here's the most hurtful part for me. Yes, he is an adult, although a very unsure one. How could he not be, living with my codependence all his life and with my husband's abuse since he was 7 years old? He's 19 now. It always hurts me whenever I think about why couldn't I have left when he was younger? So, as I have been learning recovery(12 step Al-Anon) and my behaviors are changing, I'm hoping that it has been helpful and healing for him.

Now that I am facing the abuse issue and talk with my son more openly about it, including my part in accepting it and not protecting him as well as I could have by leaving, I believe our leaving will be so healthy for each of us.

I realize that my son and I have formed an "us" against "him" alliance through the years. I can't say how healthy or unhealthy that was, just reality.

Since beginning recovery, when I was horrified when my sponsor told me I had to learn to let go of my son(!), I've slowly been learning to let go. I've always felt so protective of him, the best way I could anyway.

I am so proud of us now, though! I am ready to live my own life and my son said he wants to room with his friend (in the state we're moving to) shortly after we move. I believe this is a big growing step for both of us! Who knows? Maybe he'll start to be more sure of himself and thrive being his own person! Laura Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 05, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon,

Thanks for the post. It has often seemed like my ex-fiancée has wanted me to leave, but when I have left he wants me back. If you're mean to someone, it's logical that that person will go away, right? So if you want someone to go away, just be mean to them and they will, right? That's definitely how it looks to me.

I thought also that he might be involved with someone else because he has always been very secretive with regard to his continuing relationships with ex-girlfriends and ex-lovers, going out with them and "forgetting" to mention it until after the fact or until someone else told me, and getting mad when I tried to set boundaries so that the relationship would be respected. I guess this is the third or fourth time we have broken up over an other-woman-boundary issue, although I don't think he has actually been *sexually* unfaithful. I have never gotten agreement out of him about this, which is my fault. In the fateful call, he SAID he thought it was his ex-girlfriend. She does call and call from time to time. She has never gotten over him; she's like some Doppelganger who shadows him weeping. She has always represented a serious red flag for me although I tried to be understanding. One New Years (2000) she called and called, and things were getting tense between us because of it, and he finally asked if he could talk to her so she would stop calling, and I said a respectful limit on such a call while I was visiting would be 20 minutes, and after that I would leave. He didn't like that much, but as I had my keys out at 23 minutes, he came back from the call. But this poor girl has really broken down over my ex-fiance, and when he mixed me up with her, if that is indeed who he mixed me up with, it was a clear view of my fate with him if I stayed. Or he could have made it up and it is some other random woman he is involved with. But it's astonishing - three years, calling every day, doesn't recognize MY VOICE??!

Know what I think? I think he did have me somehow mixed up with his Doppelganger ex, and knew subconsciously that it was me on the phone, but his conscious mind hates me as much as he came to hate and hurt her. So I and this long suffering person whose mind and life he seems to have destroyed became one and the same person in that instant. Is that too science fiction?? ( Am I being a drama queen...?)

I've copied all my posts and the ones with advice to me into a document file to re-read. It really helps. I wish he was reading this site, and posting here, but I have a feeling he read one page and quit because he doesn't want to see himself. I'm using a fake name but he would know it was me by now if he were reading the Catbox.

Hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Dear Jay,

I was moved by your going into the solicitor and allowing yourself to change your mind. That took strength to give yourself more time and resist the inertia of the appointment. You can always change your mind back again. Does Jake read any of this site or our posts?

Thanks for your support. I know I did the right thing too - it would have been the right thing this summer, and a year ago, and 18 months ago, and two years ago, and three years ago - that's how long and how many times I really knew what to do and didn't do it. The good side of my ex was really good, and the pull of the companionship was really strong. It will be awhile before I give up on his changing himself, but this time it will be at a distance, and I won't hesitate to enjoy companionship from other sources.

There are actually one fewer of us in the catbox than it looks - I started using a different name when I gave him the site and he said he was reading it. "Perdida" is Portuguese for "lost."

hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Perdida,

He doesn't be mean so you will leave. IT is a push and pull mind game. You see when you two get very close he feels threatened and needs to pull away. In a healthy relationship both members of the couple know that they are both individuals who become You, Me, and Us. So when the Us gets together to be intimate say in conversation or in the bedroom, or any way you connect the healthy US knows it is then okay to still be a YOU and Me. So we are intimate but we can both gently pull away and go back to being You and Me.

If like many of us here we have low self esteem we either get far too needy and close and don't know how to let someone be also a separate person = co-dependency, OR we could be someone also with a low self esteem who is afraid of getting too needy so if they feel too close they feel threatened and pull away = Counterdependency. THESE ARE BOTH PROTECTION COPING TECHNIQUES, NOT VERY GOOD ONES BUT THEY WORK IN A LIMITED WAY.

You see the counterdependent person like your partner, wants you but it is too painful for him when you get too close. When he starts to feel buttons get pushed inside him. In his childhood someone very close to him rejected him at sometime. Therefore, he learnt early on not to get too close cuz then you get rejected and it hurts badly.

You probably learnt the only way to get close was to give the whole of you up to please others. So you learnt if you want to get close you must smother others, treat them like kings and queens.

He wants the attention hence the EX girlfriend phoning and YOU caring cuz it builds up his self esteem falsely. He feels needed.

I only know this because it is where I was at 6 months ago. How I handled it was I build up my own self esteem so that I could see I did not deserve how he was treating me. I THEN LEFT, I had told him how he treated me was not right just before I left, but he was confused and so was I and we decided to QUIT. Unknown to me he tried many times to get me back, subtle ways, I was detached and didn't notice any of them.

He thought he'd lost me totally, he had unless he could show me he had the awareness he needed to change. I was NO LONGER GONNA put up with his BS. It helped when I realised I just couldn't do things just cuz I felt sorry for him. I couldn't continue to be a doormat. Anyway just recently he sent me a letter. By this time he'd met someone new but he didn't feel right with her. HE DIDN'T know I had. SO he put all his courage and for the first time ever shared all his feelings. (HE TOLD ME THE OTHER DAY HE THOUGHT HE HAD TO RISK BEING REJECTED BIG STEP FOR HIM SINCE HE'D TRIED SO HARD TO AVOID REJECTION AT ALL COSTS PREVIOUSLY. But he said it was worth it to him. To risk me laughing and saying GET LOST)

He admitted how wrong he had been, I told him what I would accept what was not okay. I gave it to him in a respectful, honest way. Without anger, he didn't get angry either, HE WAS ready to listen, he had this only chance of saving things. HE WAS BRAVE and took the chance of being rejected.

Other times I'd never properly left, I'd stay with friends, or family but never did I move out completely, this time was different. I was no longer gonna put up with his poor behaviour. HE heard people telling him that he was to blame for me leaving. He said "For the first time in his life he saw objectively how DREADFUL he'd been. He did a lot of crying (alone of course) and a lot of soul searching. HE DECIDED it was time for change.

SO now we are taking things slowly. I can see the changes already, he is very respectful now. He said to me we won't make love until your ready. I know I've hurt you badly. We have talked more in this week than we did in eight years. Another thing is my heart is open now, for years it was cold and angry. Now I can feel some love for him.

Early days YES, but there is no falseness this time around. In the past he'd butter me up and treat me like a queen ready to drop me when he felt low. Well he has been just natural this time. Yes he has made and effort and so I have I but we have talked and talked so much, and he seems to really have been listening.

I can now see his good points, I NEVER could before. I have been honest with him, I told him how much he scared me. He wasn't defensive.

We shared the contents of our minds and hearts, we've been honest, we've hid nothing.

I don't know if this is of any help to you but it might give you some hope.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Hi Theressa,

Thanks for your post. It did help a lot. I never thought of my ex-fiancée being mean because HE was afraid of closeness and I will chew on that for while - he was always the one who wanted to be joined at the hip - except he also wanted to beat me up while I was chained to his hip. I've known the types who are out-and-out a**holes so that you will actually GO AWAY, but my ex wanted me to stay 24/7 with him, daily long distance phone calls when we were apart, only to constantly do and say subtly negative things and go rabid when I told him how these things made me feel (i.e. BAD).

My visual metaphor for myself was a dog tied up in the yard, waiting to be petted, unable to run away to get a new good master, and never knowing whether I would be petted, ignored, or mistreated. Nice, huh?

At this point, I always have to remind myself what I liked about him so that I won't go overboard with the self-recriminations!

But now that you mention it, when we were planning to move in together, my ex was supposed to be looking for a place for just us and suddenly decided on a huge house that was too expensive and that he would have to get two roommates. That's ancient history, but it does look like fear to me now that you have pointed the pattern out - it makes a lot of sense.

Thanks again - Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

DR . IRENE, I AM A STUDENT WHO IS DOING RESEARCH ON VERBAL ABUSE AND I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME INFORMATION FROM YOU. I CHOSE TO BASE MY REPORT ON THIS BECAUSE MY AUNT HAS BEEN THROUGH THIS ABUSE AND I KNOW THAT I TOO. SO IF IT IS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO E-MAIL ME THAT WOULD BE GREAT. MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS:labebe23@hotmail.com. THANKS, VELMA REYES.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Sharon here. Yes, I experienced the same with Dr. Psycho. The push/pull game always happened whenever we would spend a fabulous, loving weekend together. By Monday or Tuesday, "it" was happening. By Monday morning I was feeling so good about things and then by Monday night, he'd say something to confuse those warm feelings I'd be feeling. Its like all of the gifts that were given were taken away. And it would be mean stuff. But then once we broke up, after a period of time (few weeks) if by chance we would run into each other, he would be different. He wants to get back together, "take things one day at a time" - "makes promises" "can't wait to get close". It is completely different behavior after he and I got some distance between us. It was inconsistent. I finally couldn't do it anymore as the "honeymoon phase" was getting smaller and smaller. We would be back together for only a week, and things would get bad again.

Yes, the other women stuff I experienced too. I think that's all part of the push/pull game. They don't want you to think that you should get high expectations up, so they have to bring in something else to block or use for distancing themselves. The bottom line: they are so afraid of being intimate. They'll do anything to block it!

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Hi all,

Don't know what exactly the purpose of this board is, but I just felt like trying it out. I've been reading a few of the posts about dating and just wanted you all to know that there ARE good men out there, as I experienced this weekend. I've been hanging around with a couple friend of mine who have a pool table in their basement, and there's always been this one guy there who is divorced (i.e. available). We've known each other for a couple years now, he's never asked me out, never hit on me, never made any kind of sexual remarks or anything, not even a "Hey, you look really nice today." But we've had some conversations, and he's always been "polite." Last Friday night, I went over to shoot pool, and he was there (I'll call him J.). We all got really drunk, one thing led to another, and pretty soon I'm making out with J. I know it was really fast for me to be doing this, especially since I'm in the process of divorcing still. But in a moment of weakness, I let myself go. I asked him to come over to my place. He did, and needless to say, we spent the whole weekend together being "intimate." But the thing about him is, he really is a gentleman. He would have never ASKED to come over to my place, or even to make out with me. It was my move. The sex was great, and he was very gentle. He treated me with the utmost respect. Even after the love-making, he just wanted to snuggle and hold me. I think we were both starved for affection. I noticed some things about him that indicated that he doesn't have an ounce of abusiveness in him: 1) He didn't just sit there and talk or brag about himself. In fact, he only talked about himself when I asked him questions, and then he was open and honest with me. 2) He was constantly concerned about MY needs, and how to please me. 3) Sex wasn't the be-all and end-all. He truly wanted to spend time holding me and just being with me. 4) HE DIDN'T CALL ME ON MONDAY! Which means, he's not clingy or controlling. I'm glad, because I need my space right now. If he was a sex hog, he would be over at my house every night, like my stbx, taking up every minute of my time. I really trust this guy, and I like the fact that we're not talking about any kind of SERIOUS relationship, just enjoying spending time together. Just thought I'd let you all know that there is hope out there. A few good men left.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 06, 2001

S1

Hi, Stimpy,

Jay here. Nice to see you in the catbox.

Perdida, Jake may or may not read the site. I have no idea. He denies it but every so often I think 'where did you get that from'. I may simply be some other source. I think talking to the solicitor was really good as I had it settled in my mind at last in a way I haven't before that there was some hope. I went to see the marriage guidance counselor today and as I talked I realised I almost didn't need the support as I was clear about things and how to cope with them anyway. Yippeee!

Wow, my head is really sorted on this how not to be codependent stuff. It sort of all fitted into place and while there must be a long way to go I know I am handling everything better now,

For the first time in a long time for a sustained time life feels really o.k despite the struggles.

jay  

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Hi all,

Wondering Lynn and Dan how you are if you ever pop in to the catbox these days?

This is sort of a vent, and I don't know altogether if I have it right but I think I have. can I do it by a reported conversation in my own head?

He has used the phrase 'other people.' He want to talk to "other people." He says he has a right to talk to "other people". But the thing he wants to talk about is my financial affairs. he will help as long as he can talk to "other people"

I don't have a problem if he talks to "other people" if it is about his own affairs.

There are some "other people" I don't want involved in my affairs. He will only help out if he can talk to "other people" and not name them.

He will not reassure me that the people I object to are not the "other people" that he will talk to.

I do not like this "other people" business.

Do I use it too? Yes have done. Just because I name them doesn't make all this "other people" business o.k.

I only get help if I give in to this "other people" business. I think that I woill lose my self respect if I accept any help while we have these Unnamed "other people" involved.

Ergo. I can't ask for help.....He is forever creating a catch 22 situation.

He won't listen to my reasons for feeling this way.

Maybe I can manage. How am I not helping myself?

For a start there is undone paperwork. Things to put in envelopes and send that may help. he does have a valid point about all this.

I don't HAVE to use the car. It may even be the car gets through the MOT anyway. I am assuming it won't.

I need to put this stuff on hold. See what I can do and not act helpless.

I may have to give in. Maybe in the meantime I can address 'other people' with him without an issue involved. Maybe we can discuss it without a need of mine in the way.

Is it abusive to use the phrase "other people?"

Yes. I think it is. I feel abused by the situation.

Was that what he meant to do?

No, I don't think he has a clue.

He does leave me the space to make mistakes. He doesn't control or seek to control who I talk to or how I manage this area of my life usually.

But you use it too so you are the pot calling the kettle black and you know it is abusive. Yes but....oh dear, there aren't any buts..

What is best for you?

I think I prefer to keep myself respect. I think I need to know that I have sorted things for myself first. The root isn't even about the abuse. I handled things o,k, I kept relatively calm and I stated my case...fell apart a bit at the end but I got myself back together.

What are you angry for then.

I think I am cross with myself.. for procrastinating. Nothing would be like this if I had acted sooner. Just really a hatred of paperwork...just laziness.

So how do you feel about "other people" now?

The same. But if I have to go down the route of asking him to help I think that I am responsible as I shouldn't get myself into these muddles.

The muddle leads to him taking my power. Gives him power in this situation to abuse.

Are you going to stand up for yourself? Are you going to accept in this case you may allow abuse if you give in?

This could be creative. If you say no and appear unphased now he may respect you more..you have seen that before in other areas.

The challenge then is to choose not to have the power struggle or fight. If you are doing all you can to avoid giving in if you have to then you can make the choice that at that point in time that is the only solution. Then next time that particular fight comes you can try again.

This is probably a load of waffle and I feel comfortable with my own solution. I need to get on now and take some action! i guess I shouldn't need feedback. Shouldn't need anyone to validate my thoughts but if anyone wants to comment I would like to hear!

Jay - who is actually really pleased she got through this without getting into a fight.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Hi Perdida,

Theressa here:

Your partner sounds like he is insecure, he craves your loving hence his possessiveness but then runs scared so he acts nasty to let push you back a bit.

Why he does this is: maybe he had to work hard to gain someone's attention when he was a child, so he made them feel great but then they disappointed him cuz they didn't give him enough for how hard he worked. He thus, would feel not good enough. IT is like me I would give and give and give, but then I would resent my partner cuz he didn't give back enough to make me feel I was okay and loveable, he couldn't possibly cuz WHAT was really missing was my SELF LOVE, so it wouldn't matter what he did or didn't do, it wasn't about him. THIS is the same with your husband it isn't about YOU, its about how he feels deep inside.

All you can do is self love, yourself enough to not tolerate his abuse. Set limits! And learn to see that you really are loveable and deserve much better, YOU see the universe creates what you focus on.

When I began to feel good about me then I was able to accept his love. And vice versa.

The funny thing was as I worked on me in therapy and grew stronger I stopped accepting his abuse . YOU see I always felt I should care for him, since he had been so hurt in the past. THIS was wrong to do, I needed to let him know that xxx was wrong and I wouldn't accept it, instead of in the past making excuses for him.

YES he had suffered and YES I could understand this, but if he was ever gonna heal I had to let him feel it wasn't okay to treat me badly, this way he became conscious and started to feel again, the cause and effect. YOU see I'd taken the effect for him by allowing the abuse so he was never gonna learn.

THE kindest thing I ever did was SAY NO I won't accept that poor treatment. It got us to where we are at now.

YOU can do this also

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Hi All,

RE: Ebbs and flows

Asha how do you cope with the ebbs and flows. When things aren't so wonderful? People keep telling me to watch the ebbs and learn to come back up again.

Any ideas, perhaps Dr Irene can give her input?

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. Well......I did backslide. I called Dr. Psycho giggle! last night and we talked for 3 hours. It was incredible. My therapy and book reading helped me pull out of his crusty behavior toward me. He got into his blaming/accusing cycle and I was able to throw back his tactic by basically not getting roped into taking it. He demanded an apology, demanded honesty, but would not give me the same. I, however, told him that it was not necessary that he apologize because I 1) would not beg him for it 2) told him that I realized that he could never take responsibility for his actions, anyways because its all about "power & control with him." Whenever he would say he "didn't trust me" I don't him that he never could trust me but that it was because of him, his persona, his baggage so to speak. I said "you will never trust me - so it doesn't matter that you call me a liar - I know that I was honest and faithful - but that is your trust issues - not mine". I put everything back on him without blaming/accusing. But it was funny how he regressed back into old dialogue with me because I was able to turn the situations around without being defensive or backing down. He wanted me to acknowledge that I screwed up because the only proof that I had was the "newspaper" on his front porch showed that he slept over someone else's house. I did take responsibility for that, and told him that I figured that he did not sleep with someone else. I gave him power when needed. But I took my power when needed, even though he tried to siphon it. I think I have my closure with this man. I really needed to talk things out since we shared so much together. But he validated to me yet again what an asshole he really is. Therapy really has helped me tremendously - and I told him that I was glad we didn't go to couples counseling because it would not have worked, due to the fact that he would never consider my points of view because again, it was all about power and control. He still misses me - he wanted me to say that I missed him too - I kinda did but then I told him that "if I came over and seduced you, you would still find a reason to end the relationship in 2 weeks, so I'm not going to go out on a limb again and make myself vulnerable." This man will never be happy in a relationship as long as he can't see his part in anything he does. During the three hours, I can see that he was breaking down his anger - but then he would say the threats again like "you know with you harassing me by driving by, phone hang ups, etc. I can do this and this to you...." and I would respond with the fact that I have not called and hung up (which I haven't) and that when we were together at his house his phone would ring and hang up in his ear so it had to be someone else, that he lived his life constantly with high drama and in the victim mode and that he hires 2-3 attorneys whenever somebody crosses him - he is always "crying wolf" (look what he/she has done to me, whine, whine) and that I have taken his threats seriously and that I have taken protective steps to preserve my interest." I reminded him that I live right around the corner and it is my right to drive by since it is a major artery road. He backed down. I told him that he has done similar things to all people that see him for who he really is and make him accountable for his poor behavior and has collided with just about every human that has gotten close to him. He has trouble staying and keeping relationships with everybody. Men and women. Again, its about power and control. I think this man has learned a lot from me in the last 18 months about himself. I know I have.

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, February 07, 2001

S1

Theressa

I'm still learning myself. It takes a long time though and even when things seem lots better, old stuff can come up.

It seems that the best thing that I can do (that I have figured out) is to focus on the things in life that are important to *me*. To look at my goals and keeping moving towards them, regardless of what is going on in the external world. So even if everything around me crumbles I'm still headed in a positive direction. This doesn't mean becoming self-absorbed; it means not being externally-absorbed, so that my choices come from within and not from the "outside". So far what comes to mind as the 2 keys, in my mind, are awareness and motivation by Self (love), not by Ego (the outside world, fear). This is what I've concluded so far, but it's an ever-evolving learning experience.

take care

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 08, 2001

S1

Hey All.. Confused is back, only confused is just plain exasperated now! Hubby kept his appointment, but I think the counselor just gave him fuel for the fire! He tells me his counselor suggested that maybe he was just a detail person and that I was a non detail person....EXCUSE ME???? Example...Hubby, "Where have you been?" Me, "I told you I was going to the grocery." Hubby, "and it took you that long to go? I want to know what you've been doing and where all you went. I'll check your odometer on the car too." Come on!!! If this is what counseling is going to do for him, I want no part of it!

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, February 08, 2001

S1

Hi All,

NEWCOMERS to the cat box this might help you:

It is a reply from Dr Irene she sent to me.

My Question:

What puzzles me: isn't watching how you speak to another person the same as controlling the situation?

Reply: It depends what you do with it, But, you're asking different questions.

In intimate relationships, if you try to give the other person what you think they want, you are being controlling or manipulative because you compromise yourself and others by not speaking your truth plainly and respectfully.

If you watch how you speak in the sense of controlling yourself so that you don't say anything that demeans the other person or yourself, you are taking care of yourself because behaving in a respectful way feels good to most people; they feel good about themselves.

Next question:

I sometimes get so confused because if holding in your anger is healthy, then why was it so wrong for years? I'll explain if you are angry at xxxx and you leave the room to cool down, you never get anything resolved, aren't you controlling the outcome?

Reply:

Anger management: You hold your anger until you cool down. Then you think about what happened and what about the situation is bothering. Then you figure out how to say what you have to say. Then you talk about it respectfully.

MAYBE this might help some of you new people.

Take care Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001

S1

Jay,

I see what you mean about going off antidepressants. I finally got the money to get my prescription refilled this morning (Thank God!). The light-headedness was getting worse, and I was having some serious ringing in my ears. This morning, I noticed that every sound was amplified in my head--there was something like an echo. The emotional stuff wasn't too bad, I did get depressed on Wednesday, but have been okay since then. I just took my full dose about an hour ago, and haven't noticed much of a change yet, but I'm glad you guys talked me into getting the prescription refilled.

Did you have any side effects from going back on once you went off them?

Stimpy

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001

S1

Dear Stimpy, I didn't ever go back on them I did the cold turkey bit and I don't recommend it. By the time I came to my senses the doc thought I might just as well get to the end of the withdrawal. She did prescribe the homeopathic stuff which helped. I did get the ringing in the ears and the light headedness but even worse were the feelings and muddled upness. I didn't know how else to describe it. Possibly the only reason that the doc recommended this course of action for me although she was pretty firm about it NOT being the sensible way to do things was that she suspected the seroxat was really having a very bad effect at times.

Today I got the results of the blood tests and she wants me to see a specialist. Seems I have very low progesterone...Seems I need iron. The same doc wouldn't prescribe conventional meds and has instead written me a prescription for a cream made from wild yams...She said she didn't want the conventional things making me depressed as that might be one of the side effects. Then she told me she and the specialist are at odds over the cream.....but her female patients say it works. So now I have to see a specialist who disagrees with my doctor...hmmm. I guess not many trained docs are into alternative remedies.

Dear Confused. I think that it takes time for therapists to get the measure of what is going on. Mine seemed to miss the point a lot for about 5 weeks and then she seems to have cottoned on. This morning for the first time she actually initiated some possible progress.

So the bit, asking you all for some help here, that I need to work on according to the therapist is believing that Jake might actually make an effort at changing. She picked up on the pessimistic script of "it is never going to happen he won't do it". How do I get more positive? It is like the script is a protection against feeling disappointed and frustrated and already Jake is in the doghouse...He said, It is good you have to see a specialist...I reacted ..How dare he like that I have to see a specialist....got very upset...so I fell into it hook line and sinker....at which point Jake explained that he didn't mean he was glad he meant if there was something wrong then it was good I could see a specialist ....but really I WOULD LIKE HIM TO SHOW CONCERN which I know he won't.

As you said once before Dr Irene, don't try to get blood out of a stone...but I have to admit I want to just now.

On a later note, now I know why the banana addiction. He is not abusing me or compulsive. bananas have the same feel good stuff in as chocolate. I am married to a bannanaholic. given the amount of chocolate I eat..........I guess he has the healthier addiction ..so now I am asking myself why if I have chocolate every day I am so annoyed by his bananas. You will have to scroll back and see where I wrote about this if you haven't a clue what I am on about.

Sometimes you have to reassess and rewrite the script.

Dear Sharon, I really hope you have got closure with Dr Psycho and can keep the door closed. Look after You..

Hi Asha, Theressa and everyone else. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, February 09, 2001

S1

Dear all, Sharon here. It was a hard week for me. I broke down and called Dr. Psycho Tuesday night and we spoke for 3 hours. It was a trying time for me in some ways; liberating in others. I went to counseling Wed. and again, it was reaffirmed to me that our problems were due to his wanting power and control. That is why Dr. Psycho refuses to apologize, take responsibility for his actions and all of his threats towards me to "do me in." He is angry about the fact that I showed my anger towards him - now I'm the "animal" the one with the "black heart" so he says. This is really, really hard. I see his personal ad in our newspaper and I want to know if he is already out there dating someone else. However, I know he'll eventually treat her with contempt too. He is incapable of loving any woman. In our phone call, he was trying to get me to seduce him - he really wanted me to come over (we live 2 minutes away from each other); however I didn't even consider trying. I know the routine. I knew the outcome. We'd break up in 2 weeks going through this "crap" again. One thing I do know although he hasn't told me this - he is not going to work - at least from what I can see. (remember he works across the way - its been at least 2 weeks) He either won his lawsuit, or is on some kind of disability. Something is going on. I hope its making him insecure in life right now. This man is really good at making you the villain and he the victim; yet he is the abuser. He is such a flake!! No wonder he has to have his space; he has NEVER let anyone close. 18 months ago when we first met, he was soooo charming, he sweeped me off his feet. Then the weird verbal stuff came out and it was, for me, "WHAT??" But I was hooked in and he knew it. Its funny but even now he still wants sex!! That's laughable to me!! I'd never give it up again unless he went to therapy for at least 6 months alone and really cleaned up his act!! I told him that in an email that the only way he'd ever have me again is if I got the love, trust and respect I deserve. Well, guess what.......it fell on deaf ears. Again! Doesn't surprise me because its all about power and control for him. Wish me luck this weekend that I don't see him in the store, however I have lost 4 lbs. !!! (smile)

Hugs, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2001

S1

Dear Sharon, All the while you are in contact with Dr Psycho you will be giving him your power. The message you will be sending is I am still interested even if you abuse me. I don't think you are going to help yourself or him. Sorry I hope that doesn't sound harsh it is just what I thought as I read your post. Like you are still allowing the pattern you want to escape from to repeat. REMINDER you had to call the police on this man. Any contact at all is not a good idea. Remember the supermarket vision. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2001

S1

Dear Jay: I know!!!!!! Why did I weaken? Why did I backslide? I was doing so well there. I did "undo" all of the work I had done this past month. Thank you for the reminders; I need to keep hearing it. And I don't have the guts to tell my girlfriends this stuff because they know how awful he was too. It is more of the same from him. He looks out his window all day and night sitting at his computer. I now take an alternate route to go to the store, and I can see from the distant street that his light is on, so I know he could see me drive directly in front of his house, if I didn't take the alternate route. So, that aspect has taken away his power, because it doesn't feed in to his ego. And I know what he is doing - he has NOTHING going on and so him sitting by his window watching me drive by is alluding to him "see, she still loves me." So, at least I know that now ------- but WHY, WHY, WHY. I have to not be hard on myself about this, but I am. Believe me, I've had one hell of a week. I just have to tell myself that next week will be BETTER. Fortunately, we have the next 3 days off from work....I can have more time for myself to heal without stress from work. I'm going to have to be good to myself and not beat myself up as bad as I have been. Know what I mean? Take care of your situation too. I wish we had either other's email address so we can write. I'm at sdorsey@calstrs.ca.gov if you ever want to reach me Jay!

Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, February 10, 2001

S1

Hi Sharon, I will email you. I don't put my address directly on the board for various reasons. I'm glad you won't be too hard on yourself which is what i have been doing to me all day! Not allowing for disrupted hormones and tiredness. I get to be a raving insomniac about once a month. Jake has just gone to get a prescription for some pills and hey DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID he said log onto this site as I might feel better then. He wasn't being horrid, just concerned. I have to give him credit I think he is trying. I wouldn't exactly give him an A but there is hope I hope! jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear Catbox,

Well, I took myself off for almost a week to a retreat where I had no phone and no internet, so I had no trouble NOT calling or emailing my ex! Actually, I don't have any desire to... but why do I feel *slightly* disappointed that I haven't received any pleading messages? (ego) Part of me feels glad I don't have to deal with any choices - i.e. to respond or not.

Sharon, can you take YOUR self off to some retreat for those days off, or even the whole week? Just remove yourself physically, even temporarily, from the situation. You sound like you are losing it, and you will feel worse. You had your last look back, and yep, that was an asshole, all right. Re-read your posts twice a day and when you're feeling weak! But I sure am not being critical having been THERE and done THAT. Sometimes I just wallow in how much it all hurt, and then I get strong again. I'm now going through that part of the pattern where I wonder if I was the "bad" person who screwed everything up. Maybe I really WAS a picky, neurotic bitch. Time to wallow, wallow. Awful, ain't it? Flipping between "why did I stay so long" and "maybe it really was my fault"!! Yikes! No wonder people became nuns after losses in love.

Jay, great vent and congrats on not having a fight. Why does Jake need to talk about YOUR stuff? Is he your business manager? If so, did you consider hiring an "outsider" for the sake of the marriage? If not, what the hell? I got the "talking over things with other people" thing, too, but it was about the relationship so, yeah, the guy has to talk to his brother or whatever. But business matters - that's something else. Keep it strictly business!

Theressa, you are so right on about my ex craving attention from someone in childhood - he grew up with a bipolar older brother, and the family was and still is always totally focused on the older brother. My ex was the "perfect" one. He has told me practically nothing about his childhood, but I can see things very plainly. The mom runs the show, the dad never comes home from work, the brother is alternately extremely gregarious, taking over the room, or lies on the couch for days, and the little sister is seriously overweight and shut down. My ex simply blends into the wall when he is with his family. So it's true, it's not "possible" for him to need therapy, because that's for truly "ill" people like his brother. HE is perfect, and his mother told me so in our first meeting. So you are soooooo right on, Theressa. But I can be understanding until my brain is blue, and if he keeps being abusive, all the understanding in the world won't help. You know who my ex is? He is Bluebeard, or if you have seen the movie The Piano, he is the husband. It's ironic that he nastily told me I "needed help" early in our relationship (as he was being abusive and I just couldn't tell what was happening - surely acting out seriously myself) because I went and got therapy, and I got better. Like you, I stopped putting up with things. But each time I called attention to something, I also called attention to the fact that he isn't perfect.

Well, I am glad to be back and glad to read everyone's stuff. I hope everyone is having a happy Sunday. Sharon? Get AWAY from that guy!

Hugs, Perdida

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear All,

I thought yesterday was an awful day and then realised how much Jake had tried (o/k on this occasion put up with!). Today we managed out forst walk without an argument in months and HOORAY! He seems to have understood the bit about HumanKatkid needing his parents to agree...I stood firm about the other people business and he did explain who the other people was...!!!!!!????? This other person has a split personality?????????? He really did try all day to correct his mistakes. Yes he was abusive, then he seemed to realise it and try again! Which is pretty good of him as he was getting the wrong side of MY tongue.

But at last I knew what I wanted. I knew where I stood. Today FEELS different. GOSH is it noisy here! HumanKatkid and friend have a drum and electric guitars and are raising the roof. Plus CD's....... Today everyone feels cooperative and the conversation is conversation about things...not arguments. heavens he even asked me about my writer's group....(usually what I do is of no interest).

And after all there is a CODA group already set up and running near to my house. They just hadn't advertised!

Perdita, I had to let him help as I got in such a muddle, but it is o.k as I have been able to say how I feel to the not o.k other person and so he knows that I don't want him involved. It was sort of half a victory if that is the right word.

Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear Perdita, Jay and everyone : You made mention that you in between the places of "why did I stay so long" and "was it me??", that's exactly where I'm at too? Its no fun, is it?

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Sometimes I look at my posts and wonder where my spelling went!

Dear person who says it's no fun is it. I am not really sure what you mean but I will guess. I think there is a process you go through which is why we stay in something for as long as we do. It takes time to see what is wrong and lots of things have to happen inside until you are emotionally ready to face things. The there is the process of sifting out what you have to take responsibility for and what your partner should own. It is sometimes much harder to own your own mis behaaviours and it is also painful to face pain.

It is painful to realise how abused you are or to see how abusive your partner is. Nobody wants that: so the truth is painful. Then it takes time and effort to work on yourself.

However the other side of that is the relief and the centering. The feeling of being strong enough to cope. progress does happen and it makes you stronger.

Fun is something you can have at a funfair, personal growth isn't. But funfairs move on. What you gain inside of you at a price sticks. And that is the valuable stuff. The diamonds as opposed to cheap jewelry.

Sorry! I am getting philosophical or something! Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001

S1

Dear Dr Irene -

I just stumbled onto your site and was hoping you may be able to offer some advice. This is not about me, but I am looking for help so as to help my sister. My sister is in an emotionally abusive relationship. She has been married for 8 years now. Her husband has done everything from calling her stupid to alienating most of her friends. He hates our entire family and says horrible things about us, however, never to our face. My sister left him 2 years ago, and went to my parents with her kids (she has 2, one is 4, the other 7). She only stayed over night one night, and the next day he called her telling her to come home or he was moving out of state. When she went back, he had torn down the doors going to the bedroom and bathroom as well as broken various furniture. He told her he would not make the repairs in the house, as it was her fault he did what he did. Now, 2 years later, she decided to leave again. However, this time, she had divorce papers delivered to him. She asked me to come to see the attorney with her, so of course I did. At this point, she felt as though she couldn't spend another day with the man. The same evening, she was telling me how she just wanted to call him and tell him she loved him. This all took place on a Friday. We (my family and friends) have some how convinced her to stay at my parents for 2 nights now. However, tomorrow, Monday, she is planning to go back to him. She has visited her counselor within these past 2 days, and her counselor also advised she not go home.

My sister has done, over the course of their marriage, everything I can see possible to try to help her marriage work. She has been to see various counselors with and without him, she has tried to work on herself and build her own esteem, and we as her family have done everything we can think of.

My question to you: At this point in the game, as I previously stated, all she seems to want to do is to go running back to him once again. I am having a very difficult time continuing to be supportive of her and not get angry. As her sister, what can I do to continue to support her and encourage her to live a healthy, positive life?

Frustrated Sis

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear Sis,

I'm not Dr Irene who I am sure will give you much better advice than me but while I was talking to a friend earlier your post did cross my mind. You see, this friend was in an abusive relationship and there was a point that all her friends got pretty angry with her as she had it all set up to leave and then she stayed.

We were all pretty angry at her decision. But that its the root of it it was her decision to make and not ours. It took her another couple of years to leave and this time she was ready and it all worked out. In fact I know her husband as he and I share a hobby and go to the same group. He is a different person and clearly has beneffitted from the split. My friend says that there came a right time for her to leave, She had to do it in her own timescale.

You can't make your sister do anything that she is not ready to do otherwise you will be controlling her. Hard though it is I think you are going to have to let go and let her make her own choices: even the wrong one and be there to pick up the pieces when and if it doesn't work out again.

I suspect it is the very understandable over responsible bit of codependency that is at work in you. And I think that that is very understandable and it is just so great your sister has people around her to support and share. Just you can't make her choices for her and hard though it is we have to respect the choices our loved ones make even when we think we know they are the wrong ones. Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear Sis,

I'm not Dr Irene who I am sure will give you much better advice than me but while I was talking to a friend earlier your post did cross my mind. You see, this friend was in an abusive relationship and there was a point that all her friends got pretty angry with her as she had it all set up to leave and then she stayed.

We were all pretty angry at her decision. But that its the root of it it was her decision to make and not ours. It took her another couple of years to leave and this time she was ready and it all worked out. In fact I know her husband as he and I share a hobby and go to the same group. He is a different person and clearly has beneffitted from the split. My friend says that there came a right time for her to leave, She had to do it in her own timescale.

You can't make your sister do anything that she is not ready to do otherwise you will be controlling her. Hard though it is I think you are going to have to let go and let her make her own choices: even the wrong one and be there to pick up the pieces when and if it doesn't work out again.

I suspect it is the very understandable over responsible bit of codependency that is at work in you. And I think that that is very understandable and it is just so great your sister has people around her to support and share. Just you can't make her choices for her and hard though it is we have to respect the choices our loved ones make even when we think we know they are the wrong ones. Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear All, Sharon here. Well, its Monday and a holiday but I wanted to come in to work and post. Jay, its been GREAT hearing from you. I've been reading your posts and now have a better idea of what you are going through.

Been wanting to share with you where I am.

There is a shift of feelings for me with Dr. Psycho. The only word I can think of is "satiated." I think I am at a point of saturation about the thinking (more like ruminating) of the ending to this relationship. It was NOT healthy for me, but my thinking about it was more like "I was abused, why did I allow that to happen to MYSELF!!!!. Those were alot of my thoughts, along with intense anger, sadness, sorrow and some depression. (the depression part hasn't felt that intense and I look back, I WAS MORE DEPRESSED WITH HIM!!!!!) I am not saying I am "out of the woods", I think there has been just alittle shift in how I feel for right now. Alittle more "centered" more "smug" alot less anxious, I even sat and rented a movie last night at home *alone* without missing him. Honestly!! So, I feel just alittle better these last few days - for whatever reason. Looking back, I was used for *sex* only. I could never go back to the abuse. I could never go back to the uncertainty of knowing whether or not he is going to abuse me today or tomorrow either. Talking with him on the phone helped that day because I realized that he is who he is and he can't change he is unwilling to change. And besides, I felt empowered that he still was effected by MY CHANGING my behavior. He could see that I was secure in my belief system and he couldn't "sway me" into his way of thinking. My verbal skills have really improved with him!! Though I will NEVER GO BACK!! He will go on to next woman and abuse her. That is sad.

These last few days, I don't even get the emotional charge of "wondering" who's at his house or what he's been doing. I live right by him so its hard not to look over at his house "wondering", but I NEVER see anyone over there. But the intensifed feelings of looking at his house are gone. Around 8:30 last night, I got a phone hang up....so, of course, I wondered if it was him......but I didn't call him back to see if it was him. (in our past whenever we broke up it would be him trying to make a connection going - I would do a *69 and get him back on the phone) NOT LAST NIGHT!! So, for me, that was MAJOR PROGRESS!!!!!! So, little by little, I am feeling emotionally letting go of the entire "idea" of giving "it" another shot this time. Because, trust me, Dr. Psycho and I have been down this road many, many times. This time is different because I found this website, therapy and books. AND ALL OF YOU!!

Love, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Yay, Sharon!! Great message! Keep it up!

From your been-there, done-that reactive empathizer,

Perdida

(p.s. to your ego: of course it's him hanging up on you and isn't it satisfying to NOT be playing the same game...)

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Dear Perdida:

Yes!!!!! The phone hang ups from him means everything!!!!!! Its such validation ---- and its empowering ------- it does wonders for my self-esteem ------ (ya know, its the little stuff that counts these days!!) I called everyone I knew to see if by chance it may have been someone else, but it wasn't my mom, kids, girlfriends, etc. It had to have been Dr. Psycho. AND, I have been getting the same here at WORK. Which I suspected it was him.

Distancing myself has worked. Calling him last week and saying what I had to say gave him some things to "think about." It was empowering for me to say once again "I deserve love, trust and respect" in a relationship. And if you can't deliver - I walk.

Dr. Psycho will NEVER have me again under his thumb. I have changed. I love the fact that he feels my shift.

Sounds like you've been there, Perdida, so you know actually where I'm at. Its a good feeling! Thanks for the response and the support!!!

Love, Sharon

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, February 12, 2001

S1

Jay -

Thanks for the info. I know I just have to stand by and let her do things at her own pace. And I will be there no matter what happens.

By the way, she went home to him today..."hoping he will give her another chance"....Someday she will understand and see things as the rest of the people that love her do. I hope.

Thanks, Sis

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001