Comments for Catbox 19

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B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, January 07, 2001

S1

Asha here.

<<Asha, you can want what you want, but, if it's not easily forthcoming, why not "want" what you get. You'll be happier! >>

This is a tricky one for me. On one hand I say to myself (as an affirmation), my life is rich and full - it takes little to make me happy. OTOH, I know that I have choices about what I "get", and my not "wanting" anything, or maybe not distinguishing what was important for me in the past, had me putting myself last a few too many times. I know you're not telling me to take crap from anyone, but when crap is what I "get" (I'm talking in general, I don't mean anything recent), though I don't need to be miserable, I know I have choices that contribute to what I might get in the future. I think this is about some unresolved issues with Steve that are still on my mind; things I do have choices over.

Things turned out okay the other evening because I knew I had the choice whether or not to have the kids here while Steve was visiting his friend. I expressed my concerns about it being our last evening together, and then made a conscious choice about it being okay. I think I felt okay about this because Steve did make his plans a bit later to accommodate my concern. I do want to be asked, not expected, to look after the kids, which he did. Sometimes when I'm put on the spot, I'm not ready to make a choice yet, and that's when I think Steve interprets me as passive aggressive. Confused is more accurate, I think. Maybe also not wanting to automatically revert to "Steve-pleasing" behavior that I will later feel resentful about. And another thought - maybe I'm still expecting old poor behavior from him.

<<remember the Stones' song: "You can't always get what you want...But you'll get what you need..." >>

When I read that at first I had a yukky feeling - Steve used to say exactly that phrase when I showed disappointment about the weekends when I wasn't invited to see the kids with him. I really hope he doesn't misinterpret this to mean I need to accept whatever he dishes out, regardless of how it affects me. The way I'd hoped you'd interpret it, along with other readers, is that you run you; nobody else. Whatever comes your way, you can either make it OK or yukky... This goes for all of us!

In the bigger sense, I think I'm getting what I need in order to learn whatever lessons I need to learn right now. I need to distinguish the 'big' stuff from the 'little' stuff. Methinks some of the little stuff has residue of big stuff in it and my feelings are a little mixed. Baggage...

I think it will take some time, and if Steve wants to stick this out, he's going to have to be patient with me as well, as I sort through my feelings.

thanks Dr I. and Trubble.

Asha

p.s. just realized how comical some of our issues are really - we find every excuse to pick a fight, from dogs on the bed to trifle and menthol cigarettes - you gotta laugh at us humans really. Right Trubble? Giggle!

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001

S1

Asha says "We find every excuse to pick a fight."

So true...at least it was. Not anymore. :)

Some of the sillier things that triggered screaming matches between L and me:

The aforementioned "Chaucer is BORING!" incident.

The macaroni and cheese incident. I was making homemade, from scratch, non "meal-in-a-box" mac and cheese like Mom used to make me (and I used to help with) all the time when I was little. It came out of the oven and L looked at it and said "that doesn't look like mac and cheese to me. Couldn't you at least dye it orange?" I freaked out and started crying and shouting something about how ungrateful he was, and his "Sweetheart, I was just kidding!" fell on deaf ears. I'm actually fairly embarrassed by this one now, though I was furious at the time.

The one where he tried to convince me that the term of a U.S. Senator is two years, and I a) called my mom the former history teacher and b) downloaded a copy of the U.S. Constitution to prove him wrong. Come to think of it, this didn't get as nasty as some of the others. And it's very funny now. But again, it wasn't at the time.

The worst one (as far as massive fights over trivial things goes) was probably over a card game. We were at Cheech and Chong's place, by this time there was a serious trust problem (in part because of the whole Cheech and Chong situation), we were playing a game called Illuminati, and to make a long story short, I had made a "deal" with L on the specific condition that he not do something nasty to me on his next turn. Not even for the rest of the game, just on his next turn. The deal was made and he promptly proceeded to do what he had just promised me he would not, which caused him to win the game. This is one of the times I actually lost it with him in public. Well, semi-public. His friends probably started thinking of me as evil psycho girlfriend after that, but the way I saw it, if I couldn't trust him to keep his word about something as trivial as a game, how could I trust him about any of the other stuff I was already having problems trusting him about?? Admittedly, I should NOT have blown up at him in front of his friends (or at all in that fashion), though. I should have waited till we left and then told him that what he did upset me, and done it calmly.

Oh well. Moot point now, all of it. And I'd like to think I've learned my lesson. But given that I don't even have the urge to scream at anyone lately, other than the occasional clueless co-worker, it's hard to tell. :) Life's much nicer that way. :)

Astrid Hi Astrid!

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001

S1

Dear Cat Box and Welcome back Astrid and AJ,

I'm just posting to vent here. I just read Dan's post and I'm fuming. I feel like I have flames coming out my nose. DragonMommy? He said I told him he has till the end of the year to cure himself or I'm leaving. Not so, I said I won't live like this for another year and if there aren't changes I'm going to have to leave.

<<I'm not leaving my home or my animals>> I'm not. We have a mobile home. We've spent 5 years working on it so it's to our liking and why would I want to leave it? I have a moving van right here.

I was never asked about the new job. One of the women at work asked him how I felt about it and Dan said "fine." When he repeated this to me I laughed and said it would take him 9 moths to remember where he left me, so I didn't have to worry about moving soon.

I did not say I know better about his mom. I said I disagree because there has always been an "if" and I'd believe it if I heard it.

Enough, but a bunch more. I keep telling you Dan that that is not what I said at all, that is what you heard me say. I feel like I've had this for 6 years and it drives me crazy. I speak English and I don't need a translator. I speak with a calm voice and then when I get it reinterpreted I get wild. The big one where you said I called you stupid, you translated what I said and argued with me that the meaning was the same. I said Nobody could be that stupid. Sheesh, I'm wid and I have to agree with Dr. Irene and Trubble. I feel you are angry at me and I am unable to do anything about it because I don't know why. Another of the passive aggressive stuff. I don't drink root beer, never have and never will. I like chocolate ice cream with coke or 7 up.. Last week you made floats and made mine with chocolate ice cream and root beer. Then got martyred because I wouldn't drink it and went to make me another one with a long sigh. I said I'd do my own and no, no, you'd do it. Ouchhhh! 

Damn, this is what I can't stand. If you are mad or angry just say so and we'll work it out. I'm not a mind reader.

I'm angry now, too. You told the old therapist "I" wouldn't do anything. I wanted to shoot pool. No, it's in a bar. I said how about bowling, no you were a pin setter and hate bowling. We tried skiing, you won't go again because you spent all the time on your rump. SOS.

Enough of this. I'm getting myself worked up and I don't want to do that. DragonMommy: I have a wild idea: What if FakeDaddy gets angry because you get so worked up?

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001

S1

Lynn Here,

Oh Boy, here we go again. Dan just came in and I told him I read his post. I told him I was very angry and felt like he put words in my mouth. Angry and defensive and pointing with the fingers, said I didn't like that he translated what I said. He said that's what he felt. OK guys. At this point it could have stopped. You told him you were angry he put words in your mouth. He said, that's how he felt. Now both of you could cut it out and respect your partner. You don't have to agree. Just hear other's point of view, right, wrong, or indifferent. Try it; you'll like it. It still isn't what I said, I replied. FINE, I'll change it on the posts. I told him I didn't care what was on the posts, what mattered to me was that he herd me correctly. He said that was what he felt.

then I said I can't have this conversation again. "Fine," he tells me, "You won't have to worry about leaving YOUR house" and he grabs the want ads of the paper (so theatrical). I just grabbed my cigarettes and coke and went to the bathtub. He just drove away.

Ok, now back to the bath.

Love you all and thanks for being here. Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001

S1

Dear All,

I owe you all an apology.

I posted that Lynn said that I would have to change.... well she actually said that she could not live like this for another year, and I heard, interpreted, that I would have the year to cure myself and that is what I posted.

We just had a disagreement over it, and I became very angry and even went and looked at another house to move to. I have cooled somewhat and just went in and apologized to Lynn, she's in her sanctuary (the tub).

I explained that I never posted that I felt that that is what she was saying.

I also said that I was tired of the constant bickering.

I feel that lately that is all we seem to do, thus the reference to the king of the hill game.

Hugs

Dan  Gee DragonMommy, he's really trying. He didn't have to post this... I'd love to come visit you guys again, but you've both got to stop this sillyness... You too FakeDaddy, and this isn't "advice." It's just the way it is! Each of you is so quick to be angry at the other! Quick to jump down each other's throat, like you don't make any mistakes yourself! (Actually, I'm the only one who don't make no mistakes, not even in my grammar.) So, if you guys want me over there again, especially since I miss LOCO, you'd better both chill and not be the pot that's calling the kettle black. OK?

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001

S1

Hello, hello and hello. Lynn here and yes, isn't it silly fighting about cigarettes and pets. And doesn't it feel like we're walking on a tightrope without a net to catch us if we fall. I actually feel like I'm in one of those absolute moods. Dan NEVER listens to me, Dan ALWAYS translates what I said. Dan ALWAYS etc. etc and etc. Oh DragonMommy, so what? Let him. And he'll stop...

I'm so tired. I feel so bloody tired. Our last spoken words were, he said "You don't have to feel that way." I replied, "GoshDang (my unforgivable swear word) don't tell me what I feel (loudly.)" He said, "if you would let me finish."

Truthfully I feel like I give, Uncle and he won. Again and again I've said that I don't feel that he/you listen to me. If I hear one more time that he does it's just that he felt I meant or he thought what I really wanted is/was I will scream and then lock myself in a closet until he goes away. At least do yourself the favor of locking yourself in a tub...

Jay, I'm trying your tactic. Dan, please listen to me and then not say anything. BOTH of you should do that DragonMommy! What I've asked does not seem unreasonable to me. I didn't tell you I was angry to start a fight. I was making a statement of truth. I am angry when you say you took what I said one way and so that must be how I meant it. Today, after that I think you look foolish in my eyes. DragonMommy! This was not necessary! To grab the paper and call and go to rent a house and shout at me that I can have MY house just leaves me cold. Then to come in and say you are sorry and you'll correct it on the posts leaves me cold, too. I really don't care what anyone here thinks of me. Not even me FakeMommy? I care that you hear what I say and not blow when it gets translated to what you thought I meant. If you are going to apologize, apologize for not listening to what I say. 

"Everything" is not my fault. If you don't hear what I say, that is your problem. If you want to translate what I say, that is your problem, too. Cool FakeMommy. Let him have it. Don't make it your problem by getting all sweaty...

I want a relationship where I can say I'm angry and I can discuss why with someone and not have it turn into a "castrating witch" argument. I don't want to castrate you just because I want to be listened to. 

I feel like I'm in shock at the attack. I get to get angry and I get to say so.

Okay guys, I feel better now. Just venting and really feel I have no one else to talk to. I don't share my dirty linen with friends and family. So to the friends and family on the cat box .... here's my dirty linen. ^Snuggle, snuggle, comfort, comfort... * I love my DragonMommy....

My requests to Dan have been to please listen to me. Please lets go to therapy and work on this before it gets out of hand. Let's do the couples book and learn to communicate. Let's get rid of our baggage and move on. 

I feel like because this is what I've requested there is something wrong with it and I'm trying to thwart him. I must have an ulterior motive and if this is what I need it must be wrong. I've had enough of this kind of thinking. I'm guilty of lots of stuff, but never of not being beside him or behind him when he needed a partner. The only thing DragonMommy is guilty of is being so "reactive" to FakeDaddy and wanting him to "agree." 

Actually I really want to shout at him. Actually I have, but what I've said doesn't seem to get through (even when I've said it in a soft voice and non threatening). So, DragonMommy, stop wasting your sweet breath!

OK Trubble. I know. Disengage. Is disengaged any way to spend the rest of our lives though??? No. Not for me. I need more from a relationship. No DragonMommy! Even I know better than that. Disengage is good! It doesn't mean not care or shove it under the carpet... It means you know you can't do anything about whatever it is that you don't like, and you're not going to waste your energy knocking your head against a wall. It's making the best of what comes your way. It's about letting go.  If you don't learn to do this, you'll take it with you everywhere! It's not about FakeDaddy...it's about YOU!

And further more there is nothing wrong with having a sanctuary. Thank God I do. Yeah!

I'm getting tired of hearing this Dr. Irene. Myself I mean. I think it's time for the next stage. Fish or cut bait? I'll bet Trubble relates to that one. Trout dear. Only fresh Trout or fresh Salmon. But, as Trubble is figuring out, you don't wait for somebody to give it to you. You give it to yourself...

Love to all of you and thanks for being here. I think I'd commit myself to the local Institute without you. 

(((Hugs))), Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, January 08, 2001

S1

Dear Cat Box Group,

Lynn the pest again. MommyPest? Why not. I just want to relay our last conversation. I'm not going to add my thoughts or any input I hope. Dan read my last post and said he was sorry that he lost his temper today and it was the first time in a long time he went out and felt he had to punch something. He went outside and punched a storage locker. He told me he thought he had his anger under better control than that and felt he just got so angry because I interrupted him when he was trying to explain to me that he did hear what I said, but that it sounded different to him and he interrupted what I said differently than I said it. 

He told me not to worry though because he would never hit me.  

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

S1

Dear Lynn and Dan,

Wooh, what's happening there? You seemed more or less peaceful before Christmas and look at you two now!! I agree with Dr. I that you two sound so frustrated. The frustration is almost dripping from the screen :-) I wonder, could it have anything to do with Dan being out of work and finding a new job? I know this kind of uncertainty can make people very edgy. Dan might be worrying he would might not be able to take care of you or something like that.

Dan, I think I can relate to being scared of your own physical aggression. C. left me once because (as he said later) he was so damned scared he would hit me. His father did that to his mother all the time and I feel now that because of that he has difficulty in even allowing himself open anger, cause that always carries with it the fear of physical violence for him. Can it be like that for you in some ways, because of your upbringing? Maybe you too are so scared of open anger, that you are passive aggressive most of the time. Maybe you simply cannot confess to your own anger, but Lynn feels it al the same and gets mad at your not being open about it. (seems to me she has being open high on her list of good treats, so it would make her mad if she felt you weren't).

Maybe I am totally of track, but somehow, this rang a bell. Hope it may help you.

I wonder, why is it so hard to communicate. All of us seem to have this problem. Yesterday I talked t a friend who's husband wanted to leave cause he felt he did not get enough attention sort of wanting attention all the time really..) They talked a lot during the holidays and she said: I've never seen that we just don't seem to be able to communicate. He understand everything I say different. When i talk to you or other friends, I don't have that problem, but he does not listen to me.... Sounds familiar?? For myself I have come to the conclusion that we do not learn to state are wants and needs clearly, we veil them and then expect our partner to understand and deal with them anyway. I try to be more clear, but it is soooo hard, to voice my feelings, without the fear of being rejected. Still I think that is what I should learn to do, we all should learn, because the only way out of this mess is clear en open talking, however hard it is.

I had a major victory Sunday. I was playing clarinet (I have only played for about a year, so am not doing it very well) and C. came out of the shower. Said, with a smile: I see, it is time for me to go. I said, he, that wasn't so bad. No, he said, it's nice to play. And I thought, I do not really care about a joke like that, I would have some time ago. Now O just think, ok, I know I do not play very well, yet. But I like playing, I am making progress and whether he likes it or not is not something I feel very concerned about. And it felt great. It was disengaging, but it did not feel like distancing. It simply did not matter wether he liked my plau or not, and it simply did not have any effect on the way I felt about him. In the past I woudl have said something, felt angry, or put down Not so now. It did not matter, cause I knew that i realy want to play the clarnet, I knew I am not very good it it, but still I like it, and that's enough for me. I think maybe that is what disengaging really is all about......

Lots of love to all of you. And Trubble, I am glad you choose to behave at last. I am sure of all your mommies and daddies are so proud of you...

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

S1

Dan

Did you read my last post to you?

I wonder if you are expecting certain negative reactions from Lynn, even when they aren't there. I know that when that's happened to me, and my intent has not been angry, I eventually felt pigeon-holed into the behavior and just stopped trying to be nice, since it seemed not to get recognized. (Of course, the more mature thing would have been to stick with my original attitude, and just pull away when I was misunderstood)

Dan - you explained about the menthol cigarettes - what happened with the rootbeer float? Was it a subtle dig - or just forgetting that Lynn doesn't drink rootbeer? These little things all sound petty, but I know that in my life, they add up to bigger things. Better to look at your intentions and be sure in your own mind exactly what's going on. To be honest, I have sometimes forgotten certain likes and dislikes that Steve has, because I myself thought something would be good (and assumed that he would like it too). I felt offended if I made something he wouldn't eat, which was pretty silly of me really. Sometimes I thought that he was refusing it to "get back" at me for something (and maybe he was, but that doesn't really matter). But some people have more particular tastes than others, and now I think it's fine if people want to eat differently (as long as they don't expect the other spouse to do their dishes - hint hint). I've resolved this over time, by letting him do most of the cooking when we're together. It suits me fine. And if I do really want something he doesn't like, I make it for myself. I suppose the ideal thing in my situation would be to find out in advance whether he'll eat the thing I make or not, so that I don't make too much. The cute thing is I'll often say "I'm making such and such - do you want any"? He'll say no. Then I'll make it and he'll want some. This isn't a problem - it's just a cute little thing he does so I usually make just a little extra. Woh - I digress from the original point. Anyway, I don't know what's going on for you, but I could relate to the rootbeer float mistake, if that's what it was. However, it could also be passive aggression and that's forgivable too, especially if you can own up to it.

Oh and congrats for apologizing! I love it when people do that.

Another tip - when Lynn is angry just let her be angry, don't feed off it. (It's no reflection on you - it's just how she feels) Let her be angry, then try to absorb what she is telling you without your own emotional reactions interfering. If you don't feel rational right away, then just listen and let it sit with you for awhile (and Lynn don't expect him to be immediately rational). Then when you feel more level, go back to her and acknowledge what you heard her say, basically repeating back what you thought she said, and see if you've understood what she's angry about. Feel free to explain (but not defend) your point of view at this stage. Lynn, the same tip would work for you also should Dan express his anger about something.

Lynn

What if you just wrote down in point form what you wanted from the relationship that isn't happening right now. You can do this in a totally neutral way. Write it and look it over, making sure that it's really what you wish for, and what you mean to tell him, but keep the emotion out of it. I did this at one point, mostly for myself, because I needed to know specifically what I wanted out of a relationship (when I wasn't feeling emotional). Things get very convoluted when people are upset. (Dr I - I love the GoshDang - if only we could all be so mild, when we get worked up into our tizzies!)

<<I really don't care what anyone here thinks of me.>> We love you Lynn, and Dan too.

Another thing Lynn, Dan translates, but we all do and not always because we're not listening. Sometimes we're using old templates in our hearing. It's just tougher to get a message across, if the translator won't consider that their interpretation might be wrong.

<<I feel like because this is what I've requested there is something wrong with it and I'm trying to thwart him.>>

I bet he's feeling like he's done something bad to "make" you upset, so he gets defensive.

(((hugs))) to both of you

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

S1

Hi out there,

This is a terrific community and I'm profoundly glad to have discovered it. I've been reading the message boards for close to a year, but so far I've only lurked except for a couple of brief, anonymous comments. My hat is off to Dr. Irene and, actually, I come w/ my hat in hand in search of advice and support.

Here's my problem, as efficiently as I'm able to describe it: I am a 36 yr old woman, very happily married to a man who has stuck w/ me through a 15-year process of extricating myself from an abusive family of origin. It's taken me that long to learn the language for describing abuse and its effects, to understand that, yes, it happened to me, and to take action to protect my own family from harm (we have two small children).

'Taking action' meant finally having the wherewithal to confront my parents with the notion that they must now respect me as an autonomous adult. I did this last summer. At that time, my husband and I repaid a 50k loan to my my parents. They loaned us this money as a down payment to buy our house ten years ago, and I was very pleased to return the principal. However, I did not repay the 11% compound interest my father also demanded on the amount.

At the time my parents loaned us the money we signed a promissory note which did specify interest payments, but my naive belief was that this loan structure was in place merely to impress my father's bankers (he has his own business, and always wants a good-looking 'bottom line'). I was certainly under the impression that he would not claim compound interest. I was 25, pregnant, and in graduate school; my husband was starting his own business in a different field, and we were relying on my Svengali father for advice. He verbally agreed at the outset that interest payments could be made in the form of work that my husband did for his business, and my husband and I racked up 15k worth of 'repayment hours' over several years.

Last summer, repaying my parents' principal investment entailed my re-negotiating our mortgage and taking my parents off title to the property so that my husband and I would be the joint owners. This is the thing that made my father insane. You all know how abuse works, so there's little point in me cataloguing the trajectory of events. Perhaps it's enough to say that my punishment for having the effrontery to graduate w/ a Ph.D. in June was this: my father has never congratulated me on receiving my degree (and we live in the same city!). However, he made it very clear on the day that I framed my diploma that he needed 50k NOW or else my parents stood to lose their own house (my father had just lost a big business lawsuit as the defendant), and if I did not supply it w/in 24 hours he'd foreclose on our house for the amount of 270k (principal plus compound interest plus still more interest on fabricated debts that would have been revealed as such had the issue gone to court). My mother was wholly in agreement w/ his plan; she has always, always supported my father's decisions and (as one would expect under the circumstances) makes very few decisions of her own.

It was painful, but I used this as the occasion to formally break away. Our lawyer prepared a statement discharging us from all further debt upon payment of the principal loan, my parents signed it and I haven't talked to my father since.

Years of psychological and physical abuse taught me there would be terrible fallout from this, though it wouldn't necessarily be directed at me. I left a message on my sister's answering machine (she also lives nearby) asking her to keep a weather eye out for my father acting violently toward my mother. In return my sister sent me mail saying that she had to protect herself and would I please not involve her. Fair enough.

Cut to six months later: in the half year that I've been out of contact, newly free of abuse, I've gotten so much healthier! I started sleeping at night after years as an insomniac, and chronic health problems cleared up. I started to laugh again (although sometimes laughing hard still makes me panic afterward because I still have a reflex that tells me I'm going to get nailed for having a good time).

I predicted last summer, though, that things would not go well in my family of origin now that I am no longer willing to pretend that everything is fine. I have no idea at all what's been going on at my parents' house, but I know it can't be good...awful verbal abuse, sexual aggression, smashed belongings, food thrown at the walls, my mother's torn clothing...they're getting on in years now, so I don't think that my father has as much energy to devote to this garbage as he used to, but still.

Just before Christmas my mother had a heart attack (not fatal). Over the New Year's holiday my sister was hospitalized as an emergency and was diagnosed with advanced Crohn's disease.

Well, I've become an insomniac again. It's now gotten to the point that my husband is complainig that I wake him up every night, so I've offered to switch bedrooms (there goes that source of solace).

I don't know what to do. I know I can't rescue anyone else, but I'm finding it very hard to ignore this, and I am especially tortured by it when I'm tired (no sleep sucks). I honestly don't think that my mother wants anything to do w/ me (she was not happy when I visited her in hospital). I told my sister when she called me from *her* hospital bed, 5 days after she was admitted) that I am only willing to be involved w/ my parents if they are prescribed antidepressents and enter into counselling. There may be hope for my sister, but she's still very much under my father's sway.

Is there anything else I can do? We're talking baaad abuse here. I'm very afraid, for instance, to send my father the URL to this site, which I'd love to do.

Best wishes to all of you "cats". I've learned so much that is valuable hanging out here.

-silver

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

S1

Recently, I was very hurt by a friend of mine whom I've known for about a year. I have romantic feelings for my friend, Julio, and from what I know, he has romantic feelings for me, but our age difference is too great & we've talked about it & decided to stay just friends. We are very affectionate with each other, hugging & kissing, but as friends. We spent a lot of time together over the holiday season & we were getting closer to each other. Around New Years, I went out with him & some of his other friends, which I've done many times. For the first time in our friendship, he was not talking to me & distant, but when he did speak to me he was offensive & hurtful. He would then come give me a hug, but still say something mean. It came out of the blue & left me very surprised and hurt. We spoke very little the next several days, then we both went to a friend's party. He acted the same way that night, ignoring me or all of the sudden hugging me, but saying something mean. I confronted him on the phone the next day & asked him why he was acting this way with me. He gave me several conflicting explanations, then told me he would rather I be confused. I'm left trying to understand what happened between us. For now, I've decided not to call him or continue the friendship since he doesn't seem able to have real communication with me. I'm very upset & would like to hear someone's take on what might be happening.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

S1

Silver

Probably the best thing you can do for your family is to continue to take good care of yourself. Don't get wrapped up in stuff you have no control over. Remember that they too have choices for their behavior even when it is self-destructive. You are not responsible for them.

It sounds like you have a great hubby, so why not put your focus there.

If you feel the need to "do" something for them, why not wish them good things, like peace, strength, love etc. Send them your loving thoughts, but don't let their negativity hurt you. That would just make things worse for you, your kids and your hubby.

take care - be strong.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

S1

Hi everybody,

The Dragon Mommy Lynn here, I have to laugh today and I'll bet if I tried some self analysis I'd know what is going on. I've had disengage down so well that I and like I am living in my own little world. After I told Dan I was angry yesterday and we had a few go rounds I said, "I can't have this conversation (calmly) again." I then went off to my tub. That's when it got so heated and I engaged. Ooops!

And I read the post but forgot the name, but I hear you about Dan not working right now. He does have a permanent job, it's just not full time and we go through this every winter.

I hear you with the parents, too. My dad is so angry and thinks he can bully the world. This goes from Presidents to wanna be presidents down the list. I just don't need this stuff. As for your insomnia, me, too, in a sense, but it might just be my way of getting time alone. I go to bed late and sleep late. I get 7 to 9 hours of sleep each night and feel good. Just on my own hours.

Trubble, am I insane or am I thinking things are better. I felt better about Dan punching the shed and showing anger than I do when he insists he isn't angry and calls it "having my anger under control." I feel like he thinks it's under control but it's there lurking and I can feel and sense it. It's worse to me than being yelled at. I can't tell FakeMommy. I can't tell if FakeDaddy stuffs his anger and calls that "under control," or if he's aware of it but tries to contain the behavior, or what. FakeDaddy might want to try writing you a letter, which he never has to give you, when he's feeling "under control" or otherwise to help him better articulate how he feels...

A hint from my children (who aren't anymore). Well they are my children, but not young. They always knew when I meant it!!!! If I were shouting and swearing and yakking they generally ignored me. They say ow, "when om talked in a whisper, didn't swear, cut off her words, her eyes turned red and flames came out her nose, one sentence from her meant business." Sort of like after 11 days of requests to take the garbage out. When I softly said, "are-you-going-to -take-the-garbage-out- ?" That's when I meant it.

Steve, if you are lurking out there, that's why I can relate to you and the shouts.

Astrid, Asha, AJ and the rest, Time to go and thanks a bunch. I do love you all and thanks,

Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

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Hehehe, Dragon Mommy here, Trubble, how rude of me. You are welcome here anytime. How about a foreign exchange thing? I'll send Dan there and you come and stay with me??? hehehe My magic carpet is on the way darlin'. I'll bet I'd never get angry at you.   Heheheh. Bet ya would!

Lynn

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Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

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Hi Lynn and Dan and the rest of you. Yes, I am a transient cat to say the least. It is ok if you did not know who I am, because I don't visit very often. After my "YOU GO GIRL" comments, I actually read the last 17 pages! Or 18 now I think. You are all so helpful to my assessing my marriage.

I am writing for support mainly. My husband has been back in the house for about 5 months after a one year separation. He has some anger problems, but has never been physically violent. He has been on Wellbutrin twice a day, and it makes the difference between Jeckyll and Hyde...(hmmm, never tried to spell Jeckyll...wondering if that is correct :o)

Anyway...as before he becomes so used to feeling good that he stops taking his medicine regularly. Now he has had two blowups in the last three weeks, and I called his therapist. I am crashing his therapy session today, and can't get hold of him to tell him. So please send positive thoughts and purrs my way. Dr. B started seeing us for couples counseling, but has been seeing Dan alone for the past 5 months.

I know I have to do it, but confrontation isn't my strong point. Especially because he has been using this doctor against me. Like " The doctor thinks you have a big problem and things like " I tried to stick up for you and told Dr. B you weren't like that" to which I said " Like what?". So I am sticking up for myself, which is causing bigger outbursts. And this doctor is under the impression that I shut down to control a situation. Gee I can't wait to see what he really thinks. Take care and have a good day. Dr. Irene is a great help. Laura :o)

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Date: Tuesday, January 09, 2001

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Dear everybody but especially AJ who I didn't intentionally leave out. I've been so wrapped up in my own stuff that I can't think.

I loved the bit about the tablecloth. We have so much going on that I don't even talk about Dan's mom much. That would be a whole new 20 chapters, but she is so funny about stuff like that. If I got Dan anything she would get him the same thing and almost defy him not to like hers better. She does this with all the boys. It's like a competition and toooooo silly sometimes.

After I got calm, and again thank cats for the board, I feel like this is the best progress we've made in ages. Dan swears he isn't angry but in his silence he comes through to me like one ticked off dude. This is so unfamiliar to me. If you are mad, say so. From my way of thinking, I can't do anything about it until I know what's wrong.

I was actually so happy to see him mad at something that I was going whoopee. And I hear you. We were dripping off the pages, weren't we.

Ok Doc, are things better or not? Or am I crazy to feel like this is progress? I know I feel better today and even went out shopping. Well, at least to the Senior thrift store. We are talking and not zinging off of each other. If you think things are better, things are better!  

Astrid, hello out there. Stage left or what? and Jay, start on the book. It's almost chapter and verse of a romance novel. Now if we can slay the dragon or at least turn off the blow torch we can either go forward or back. 

Becky, are you hiding under the bed? I prefer closets myself. I just have so much junk in mine that I can't get into it.

Well guys, Happy Trails till we meet again,

Love, Lynn

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Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

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Steve here. I'm back. Because Lynn and Dan drove me to it.

You guys...hehe. You both seem to be forgetting...

Lynn - it's about YOU! You are making you angry. :)

Dan, same goes for you.

Time to look inside, not out. You can fix the inside, and so you should. The outside is what you *want* to control, but don't need to. You *need* to control the inside, but don't want to. Why? Fear, fear and more fear. Face the fears. Hunt them down and destroy them with the light.

You must replace the programs that have been running the show for years.

This goes for all of us doesn't it?

I'm having fun with this stuff now.

I'm actually looking forward to my next "backsliding" session so I can look at how foolish I was, and what program needs replacing. I think even Asha is looking forward to me acting up again. She learns a lot too. (Yes, she acts up once in awhile too, and she is learning lots from that. I can see improvement in both of us.)

I'm gonna be a Buddha, I'm gonna be a Buddha, I think I can I think I can... 

Darn it, things have been going a little too smoothly for me and Asha...I need to create a challenge...grin. Kidding...  Giggle!

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

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Welcome Laura

Anyone who's read 18 pages of this stuff deserves a hello, I think. So hello. Hope things went okay with the therapy session.

Asha

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Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

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Ho Steve,

Welcome home. Did you have a nice trip? Glad you jumped back because we all went to pieces without you! See :) Knew I could count on you buddy. Now... do you have the belly to become Buddha? I have the flames to become a dragon.

Pretty funny tonight, isn't it? The Merry-Go-Round of life.

Take care and I guess it's your turn next to get me off the hook.

(((Hugs)))

Lynn aka the Dragon Mommy Cat

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Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

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Steve said: <<Yes, she acts up once in awhile too, and she is learning lots from that.>>

Me - act up, never... me and Trubble don't ever act like THAT. ;)  Never!

But actually I look forward to the uphill climb a lot more than the backsliding. 'Course backsliding is okay, as long as you go forward again, and don't slip away into oblivion.

hugs

Asha

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Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Hello Laura,

I guess. We don't have to read all 19 pages. We survived them! That ought to be an award winner for you. We probably make your life seem "normal."

We had that kind of thing going on with our old therapist. I was getting "poor Dan, how do you think he feels?" Directly from her lips. I wanted to scream that I didn't think anyone heard Lynn's side. She wasn't very good for us really. She visibly took sides.

Good luck to you and see if we can get your Dan a postin'. We've had similar names and initials and some have been renamed here.

One can get a good laugh when it's behind us, but right in the middle it ain't much fun.

I really surprised myself yesterday. Dan called and then went and looked at a house to rent. I walked away and ignored him. I'm amazed in retrospect that I didn't start packing for him. I tend to do things like that. Good!

We got it straightened out today about the "I won't leave my house or my animals." Once before when we were going to separate I said that, but only because who'd rent to someone who smoked with 2 dogs and 6 cats? LOCO would stay with daddy. I told Dan today that if I were serious I'd go ahead and leave with the clothes on my back. Now wouldn't that be something, to leave him with the 2 dogs, 7 cats, 1 cockatiel, 2 parakeets and the "pet" mouse. That would be real revenge. Who do I go with?

Sounds pretty footloose and fancy to me.

Good luck,

Lynn

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Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

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Dear Dr. Irene and Trubble,

I went back and calmly read the posts and blue pencils on page 18 and 19. I'm trying to think this out with a bit of sanity. I do know my attitude has changed.

I get the need to talk with Dan, make plans for our future, and it is so sad sometimes because I think we are wasting so much "quality" time that could be better spent nurturing and growing. These could and should be the best years of our lives.

I'm afraid I got into the rotten attitude mode after a few forgive nesses and it was like as soon as I let my guard down he took advantage of it and zoomed in. I wonder to myself why, when things are good and we are "romantic" and comfortable he would want to sock it to me. I'm getting so discouraged and am on guard all the time since Thanksgiving and one other time after that. My attitude is really who needs this and I'm sure it's showing loud and clear.

I think, to try and capsulate this, that recently I've forgiven and forgotten twice and both times I felt I was had and now I'm not going to give him the chance at me again.

This of course creates a vicious circle. I've recently noticed my visible walls. I can effectively wall myself in. Even in the bedroom if we are playing Nintendo (Shangahi) I had a bed tray and it's always over my lap and there is a physical wall protecting me. I do this in the TV room, too. I can set up the ironing board and build a fence around myself. I'm doing this more and more.

I think it boils down to I really don't trust him anymore and that's so sad. I don't know what to do about it. I can't say OK "Honey" lets start over. It's not stubborn, it's just that I don't trust him not to do something nasty the next day.

Okey dokey. I probably know the answer and it will pop out and hit me in the nose after posting. Thank you for being here. I do listen when I shut up long enough to open my ears, but I eventually get there. Chomp on this one: Clean up your act first (give him space, stop demanding answers when you want them, accept what he gives, etc. like it or not, and THEN you have the right to call the kettle black... Otherwise, it sounds to me like you're both messing up and bouncing off each other...

I do have to laugh at Steve and myself. I'd almost like to edit our angry posts together. They're almost interchangeable. I could always relate to Steve's posts. I can hear what he's saying, because I feel like I'm saying the same thing. This with love Steve.

Take care and maybe we'll give you a much deserved vacation here soon.

Thank You again and Love,

Lynn

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Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

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Dear Cat Box,

I was racking my brain to remember why I told Dan I couldn't believe anyone could be so stupid. Bingo and it's the same argument. I asked (told) him once that it was really important to me that we talked. I said I wasn't going to bug him or bring it up again and when he was ready to talk to me to please do so.

Months went by and nothing. One night I finally asked him if he was ever going to talk to me about what I wanted to talk about? (calmly, too). He looked at me blankly. I said that I told him that I had an issue I needed to talk about and was he ever going to talk to me about it? Honestly he looked at me and said, "Oh, you wanted to talk? I thought you were just talking and when you said what you had to say you got it out of your system."

Again quietly, I shook my head and looked him square in the eye and told him I didn't believe he said that because I didn't believe anybody could be that stupid.

This got translated to I called him stupid. FakeMommy: It's not a bad translation!

OK, maybe I shouldn't have used the word stupid, but offhand I can't think of a better adjective.  How about, "Yes, I wanted to talk."

This is the same argument that has been going on for six years. Please talk to me. I need to feel that you hear what I'm saying. No you don't. You don't NEED this, though you would like this. Who didn't hear you Lynn when you were a kid? What you do need is to accept what is given. You'll be happier. Maybe he'll listen more...

The frightening part is that one of these days I'm going to find someone who wants to talk to me and hear me and then Dan will be ready to talk.

In retrospect, if he can't talk to me, he can't. Get off it Dragon Mommy. How sad though. I should have figured this out 18 chapters ago. Right, although you are not wrong. There is no need to focus your attention on the negative - when there are so many other places to go!

More food for thought and goodnight Irene,    Goodnight.

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

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Dear all,

Had a very interesting session with my therapist this morning who brought some old things to surface again that I thought forgiven and forgotten. Guess what... not so. Crying and having a hard time believing I still am not able to talk these things trough with C. out of fear what he might think, or that I might hurt him, or he might get angry and want nothing to do with me anymore. Still seem to need him to be the sun in the heavens or something like that.

Felt very depressed after that and just want to throw to towel in. My therapist said you don't want t open the parcel and see what is inside, cause you fear you may not like it. But when you do not open it, oke, it is exiting guessing what might be, but you will always stay at the sidelines of live. So true, but I guess I just don't want it to be true. I still want to believe my happy fairytale and all the bad things just have to not be there.

It is good to have someone mirror me like that. I knew I need to talk again to C. Bt everything just was so quiet, it seemed like a waste to mess things up again. But all the same, there was this nagging voice. Not fighting simply is not enough for a good relationship. I want more then that and I haven't a clue where to start, and how to talk to C. I get better at no accepting overtly abusive things, but I am still so afraid to talk to him. End sometimes it seems so much easier just o get out and have done with it. Why am I putting myself through this anyway? The trying, the hoping, the fearing.

I do want things to be oke for us, and I do want to work. But I really do not know how to conquer the fear sometimes. I can have a great time with friends or doing things on my own, but it just does not seem to be enough. Sometimes I really think i am doing better, bust that is probably because I refuse to see I am not...... I know I need to talk to c. about his, about how I feel, but it scares me.

God, how I would like to see an end to this road.

Love to all of you

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

DR IRENE, (and anyone else who can offer me some insight)

I met a guy on New Years Eve. Although yesterday I decided to QUIT!! I felt so awkward and out of touch with dating and what I was meant to do. Though it was exciting and fun for a time. He rang and texted me every day for a whole week, no one ever spent that much time on me. LOL THOUGH now when I analyze my behaviour I realise being so pre-occupied with someone that you wait for their calls and wait around for them and put your own life on hold IS CO-DEPENDENT isn't it???  

On the third day we were seeing each other he called me and asked me to come around to his house that afternoon. I said "Yes okay, I just have a few things to do and then I'll come." He said "Okay well I must go and see my dad and do a few errands, so I will call you when I am home."

Anyway my phone fell into some water and broke, so I knew he'd not be able to ring so I went around to his house, we agreed he'd call me so we could meet in another hour, since an old friend of his from the marine's was due to unexpectedly call around. I didn't kiss him on leaving, cuz his neighbour had just stopped by.

Anyway his friend called him and so he spent the time with his friend. [I posted some of this already about how he never called and so I rang him. IS THIS CO-DEPENDENT??

When I called him I said "Okay you seem busy still so we will go out at weekend instead (SEEMS HEALTHY Enough!!)

Anyway he texted me on the phone I borrowed from my mom. (BUT I couldn't text him back cuz I didn't know how to set up the phone. I did call though a few times to say thanks I got your texts and to answer some things he asked.

Then on the fifth day of our seeing each other, I got my phone working so I could text him back. We bantered back and forth. His messages started off saying things like I missing you. And eventually to I want to spend the night with you and make love to you all night. I wrote back saying this was a bit forward. Anyway he continued and so I wrote and said "Wouldn't you think I was cheap if I did sleep with you and would you still be around? and anyway I didn't want a relationship just about sex."

He didn't reply, nor did he return my call on Friday. SO I rang him and left a message on his answerphone and said "I wondered why you hadn't called, ring me." IS THIS CO-DEPENDENT??? (Desperate perhaps??)

I texted him 5 times on Friday, asking him if he'd think I was bad if I did sleep with him. IS this co-dependent?? EVEN if he had text me 5 times one after the other daily all week.

I even arranged contraception. I thought I had little choice about sleeping with this guy. Maybe It is what was done these days. Though my gut didn't feel okay which is why I sent all those 5 texts. I decided by the end of the day I wasn't gonna sleep with anyone not just so they'd think I was hip or anything else. (NOT SOMETHING I do lightly, though in the past when I first met my X I felt after a few months obliged.) I thought about the text message and felt GUILTY, why was I withholding on this GUY? SO I rang him and left a message on his answerphone saying "Sorry about the text messages, basically all I wanted to say was I need to go slower and if he still wanted to go out he should call me."

He didn't return my call.

Anyway I was angry since we were meant to be going out to the pub on Friday as a couple. As he didn't ring I went out with my friends, and had some drinks at one of the girls house. My phone went off line for a while, the batteries went dead. When I recharged my phone 2 text messages were on it. Saying I am missing you, I can't sleep, really want to hold you, and make love to you all night.

My friend told me to say I'd visit him at eleven. (I was gonna just go over and see how things went.) Though he didn't reply. SO I sent one last text saying Are you sleeping? He didn't reply.

The next morning Saturday, I dropped my mom's phone and it stopped working. WHOOPPS my mom is gonna kill me!!!

SO I couldn't ring the guy and he couldn't ring me. I decided to leave a message on his answerphone telling him, my mom's phone was now broke and so I'd call around to his house tomorrow at 2pm.

**The only reason he couldn't come to my house is I didn't want him to, cuz I didn't want my daughter to meet him at such an early stage.

Anyway I went around to see him at 2pm on Sunday. He was watching the football. He said "I have to go to work soon Theressa." (I had booked a sitter for Sunday night so we could go out. OH Well up to now I'd booked two sitters on Tuesday when he let me down cuz his old friend came, Then he let me down on Friday and never rang. AND NOW it is Sunday and he is letting me down again!!)

Well so he has to go to work, not his fault. THOUGH he had told me the other day he was off on Sunday. So anyway I asked him did he get my text messages, I joked saying I won't send anymore, not so good with words. He laughed and said okay.

He said "I didn't know you were coming cuz I left my phone on charge all weekend and so only just got your text messages and your answerphone message. SO THAT is why he didn't ring??

Two other things that bothered me. On the third day when I went around he asked me why me and my ex split, I told him that he was too controlling and didn't like a career girl. He smirked and said "Career GIRL" (I felt angry at his mocking) Is this CO-DEPENDENT??

Then On Sunday I asked him for a brew (in England this is a cup of tea or coffee) He said "A brew what on earth is a brew." I told him. (No harm done maybe he just doesn't know this slag word) So I said "SO aren't you gonna make me any drink? He said "NO, there is no milk left and I only have water." GOODNESS DOES HE MAKE SUCH AN EFFORT!!! Am I being CO-Dependent here???

Anyway he then said "I need to get ready for work, excuse me." SO I got up to leave, He said "I'll ring you tomorrow at 3.30pm, i will be going out then to see my dad." I said "I will have to ring you, remember my phone isn't working." HE said RIGHT OKAY, but ring at 3.30pm not before or after."

Anyway on leaving I approached him to kiss him good bye. It was very awkward and it was a friendly peck on the lips. I felt silly and I said "cheers see you as I walked out of his gate, I didn't look at him, cuz I felt silly".

SO on Monday I rang at 3.30pm, the answerphone was on. I left a message saying "Ring me at my mom's about 6.30pm" He didn't ring.

Anyway I told my therapist about this guy, he said "IT is all due to miscommunication. It will do you good to get along with the opposite sex, just have fun, and as for sleeping with the guy, it is what young people do these days, so why have hang ups."

I said "Well he wouldn't respect me if I did would he." My therapist said "That is your thinking, why wouldn't he respect you." You do what you want to do as long as your safe, you are an adult no need for unnecessary guilt."

This shocked me isn't this being untrue to yourself??? Where is the self respect here??? Isn't this allowing your ego to go over true self???

So yesterday Tuesday I tried again. (MAYBE he just had some problem and couldn't wait in for my call.) Though he does have a mobile though that was switched off. I left a message on his answerphone saying "Do you want to get it together or not, lets forget the shyness and excuses, we are both adults, I am sure you can get time off work, the ball is in your court, ring me at my mom's at 6.30pm. WELL HE DIDN'T ring.

I spoke to my friend and said "Do you know it is as if he just doesn't want to make the effort, I feel like I am mothering him now, but my therapist told me, that i should continue with this guy, it is just due to miscommunication problems." She said "I too would feel like someone desperate, it does take two to make the effort and he doesn't seem to be."

Dr Irene am I just acting CO-DEPENDENT sticking around for this guy??

And isn't it insecure and CO-DEPENDENT TO Sleep with someone you hardly know???

I HOPE YOU REPLY DR IRENE, I KNOW YOU CAN'T READ ALL OF THE POSTS ON THE BOARD BUT IT WOULD GREATLY HELP IF YOU'D REPLY TO ME. PLEASE TRUBBLE ASK MOMMY TO REPLY.  Why are you asking when you already know the answers?

Thanks Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear Theressa,

You sound as if you really want (need) this guy. Why? To be honest, If I were him and you would call me as often as you did the first week after we met, I would run as fast as I could. Yeah! You are not giving him any space to breath! So he does not answer your call right away. So maybe he has a problem with his phone too, but if he wants to call he will find a way. Remember what we said to David, take some distance. You must allow someone to want YOU. As for sleeping together, who cares. Do what you want to, not what you feel you have to. Be prepared (as for anticoncpetion and such), but leave it to how you feel at the moment before you decide. If you feel you want to sleep with him when you meet, by all means do so. As your therapist says you are an adult and not hurting anyone. But don't feel you have, or have not to out of fear of loosing his respect or because you feel obliged.  I think she wanted to sleep with him to keep him around. Wrong reasons...

I think, personally, if you make such a big deal out of it beforehand, maybe you should just wait a little longer. A LOT Longer. If he really likes you, he can wait till you are ready. If not, his loss. You're worth waiting for and sex is not all there is to a relationship.

T. take care of yourself, and if my words sound a little harsh, it is not cause I feel you are wrong, just that I care.

Lots of love, don't hurry yourself, and give both of you some space to breath.

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Theressa~ This situation sounds really rushed. If you two were on level ground in this relationship you wouldn't be feeling so off balance. As far as sleeping with him...no one can answer that question but you. Listen to what you are telling this board, and you will have your answer. I would totally disengage, and find something to do that nourishes you. Go have a tan, or get a massage. Maybe you just need positive touch, and you are not sure this guy is positive for you. There is absolutely no harm done by waiting to see at this point. Have a good day, and be in love with you. Laura :o)

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Hi AJ,

Thanks for replying.

You ask why I am so in need of this guy? Well I just liked him, he seemed fun. He seemed to be always ringing me at first and he wasn't emotionally abusive. He seemed very keen, so that is why I rang him. I thought it would be courteous.

But I do hear you, I sounded desperate. WELL I think I was just a little too enthusiastic. It is just I haven't met anyone else like him who I clicked with, and I wanted to show my X that I can meet other guys. BAD REASON isn't it for wanting to be with someone.

As well as that it was the attention I craved. I never got this sort of attention from anyone before.

But I hear you, I need to slow down and give him some peace. The trouble is I just don't and didn't know how to behave when dating. 

Though I agree if this guy wanted to ring me he'd do so!! So I will just get on with my life, if he rings, he rings, if he doesn't its just life!!

Thanks AJ

Love Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Hi Laura,

Thanks for replying,

Can you explain this to me: If you two were on level ground in this relationship you wouldn't be feeling so off balance.

Thanks Theressa

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Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Asha,

I printed out your thoughtful comments to me yesterday. They were exactly the bolt I needed from the electronic blue, and I'll be looking at them often in the next little while.

Thank you! silver (Paula, actually).

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Lynn

Let me pretend to be Dan for a minute (I may be off on this, but I'll give it a shot).

You said "it was really important to me that we talked. I said I wasn't going to bug him or bring it up again and when he was ready to talk to me to please do so."

He's thinking you mean 'in general'. That you won't bug him, and if he is ready to talk about something to go ahead. So then he thinks, all right that's done, onto other things...

Then when you said "I didn't believe anybody could be that stupid", he thinks I *am* stupid. I really didn't get it. And if he really didn't get it, then he feels stumped because, what if doesn't get it in the future? And he doesn't know what to do about it.

Okay that's one possibility. True miscommunication. On the other hand because Dan has covered up for things like the keys, Lynn never knows for sure when he is genuinely not understanding or when he's doing another cover up. This is why I think Dan has to make a firm commitment to stop the cover-up stuff, if he wants to have a healthier relationship with Lynn. Dan needs to take a close look at his feelings and identify what they are. Then he can decide whether they are rational or not.

Dan, are you still out there?

love to both of you

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

AJ

I don't think there is an "end to this road", and that's not a bad thing.

What I mean is that life is about learning, and these struggles we face are part of what life gives to us so that we can grow stronger.

I think the sooner we all settle into life's experiences and become okay with them, the easier the learning.

Whenever someone mentions something about "recovery" on this site, I always think that the state of being human *is* a kind of recovery, at various levels. I don't believe any of us are on earth because we are perfect. I think the human experience is one of challenges, and intense learning.

take care, glad you're back.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Theressa - RED FLAG RED FLAG

It sounds to me like the guy just wanted sex, which is fine for him, but you want more than that.

Here's a chance for you to disengage at a very early stage. If he's really interested in you he won't give up that easily.

Don't contact him anymore. If he was interested he would have checked his messages. Don't try to fill in the blanks about why he does't phone back etc. Just accept that he doesn't and let it go.

You had integrity in telling him your original concerns about sleeping with him - where you lost it was by saying stuff like you're not so good with words and "Sorry about the text messages". WHY sorry? This is how you feel, and it's healthy and reasonable. Just because he doesn't feel the same way doesn't mean you are wrong. Trust your gut.

Why disappoint yourself by expecting things he's not willing to offer? I think that you were pushing yourself on this guy a bit too hard as well - let it go. If things are meant to be they will be.

I wonder if you misunderstood what your therapist said, or left out details about the situation.

Yes do what you *want* to do - which is not to sleep with the guy right away. And don't feel guilty about that.

Stop waiting for the calls. Just relax and plan some nice things for you.

take care

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear Theressa,

This is Lynn with some motherly advice. I thought that post was from a woman and Dan swore it was from a man. I didn't reply because I'm the last person who would dare to give advice about sex and dating. I got pretty wild for quite a few years and truthfully had 3 steady boyfriends for years. (I didn't cheat on any of them).

But in reality, from my experience I've found that ALL men are not after sex and if it's you they truly want they will wait until YOU are ready.

And to look at both sides of the "sleeping with" if you did have a sexual relationship with him and he left then you probably wouldn't want him anyway. If you were pressured before you were ready you would probably resent him for the ultimatum.

I am from and was raised in the generation where good girls didn't. I was a virgin when I married. The toughest thing for me was the 2nd man. I truly, as an adult thought one had to be married to have sex. Men were only after one thing and didn't respect us if we "let them go all the way."

This isn't really true these days (but with the diseases these days I think I'd be very careful who I "slept" with. People have sexual relationships as I'm sure they always did without the benefit of marriage. It's the 2 people in the relationship who count.

I also hear you about the needing a man in our lives. I was raised that way, too. It took me years to realize that I didn't HAVE to be married to be happy and whole. I had moments of single contentedness. It's tough to learn to be happy with ourselves.

Co dependent or comfortable, I don't know, but a relationship with the wrong man (or woman) can be hell. Once we get into a relationship it seems really hard to get out of it.

Trust your instincts and your body and say NO. I don't think you need that man. If he were sincere he would have waited for a relationship to develop and respect your feelings.

I also think you are very vulnerable right now. I know this feeling, too. Nobody will ever like me again, I'll spend the rest of my life alone, etc. Not so. When you least expect it one will come into your life. It will probably be someone whom you least expect to be attracted to. He will care if you are ready or not.

I know, too, that right now you are probably feeling very vulnerable and lonely. Enjoy these feelings. It is a time for you to get in touch with yourself and find out who you really are. Get busy! I ALWAYS worked graveyard (night shift). You would be surprised ho easy the lonely nights go by when you are slinging hash in a busy restaurant till 6 AM.

Take care Theressa and don't be pressured into doing anything you don't want to do. You just got out of that.

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear AJ,

I had to do these one at a time. Theressa got priority today. You remind me of Dan with the talking. I call this his Fantasy Island thinking, that if we don't talk about it it goes away. For me it doesn't. It grows and festers. When I can talk or shout out all the uglies, amazingly the disappear into some distant recess of my mind and I have to be reminded of them before they reappear. I've never (in recent 20 years) been afraid of confrontation or been unable to express how I feel. If I can discuss something I can put it to rest. This especially goes for the uglies. I need to tell and talk and cry and grieve and mourn and then it seems to go away.

Dan calls this the It's not over till I say it's over, but once it's over it's gone bye bye and never an issue again.

I hear you about needing this to be settled. I am sooooo tired. How about this Steve? Give Peace a Chance?

Hang in there AJ. If and if we get through this it will be worth it. It's not that we are bad people. Just uneducated with lots of baggage that needs unpacked.

Dear Asha, I'm going to go reread the rest of the posts, but when I told Dan that I couldn't believe anyone could be that stupid, I didn't mean to call him names or put him down. I thought I was just stating a fact. The "fact" is your opinion that he's stupid. Ouchhhh! Even if that's what you think, why would you say this? The only reason can be to hurt him... 

Love you all,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear Asha/Dan,

Dan knew what it was I needed to talk about. I told him (can you imagine that I didn't?). Lynn, you've got to stop telling him. Don't you know you'll get more out of him when you back off? Entirely. No put downs, nothing other than acceptance that he is exactly where he is... (But, to do that, you have to first accept Lynn.)

Glad you and Steve are doing so well. The rest of us are falling apart.

I went through some very thoughtful thoughts yesterday. I always felt the cats and dogs came with me. (except for LOCO). Dan wouldn't hurt them. I'm not stuck here without a house because I have cats and dogs. In reality I have the clothes on my back. Now I'm asking myself why I needed an excuse to stay. There is no reason (yes there is, right Trubble?) that I couldn't hit the road like a hobo.

Talk to you all later. Hi the rest of you.

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear Theressa, "The trouble is I just don't and didn't know how to behave when your dating." Ha LOL, who does???? :-)

But I do think it is wise to keep a little distance. C. always said; I like to miss you. Give the guy, any guy a chance to miss you, to court you and don't let them feel like you are desperate to marry them right away. Not got for them, not good for you. Believe me, I had a hard time learning it, and I think it is even harder to learn when dating your own husband as I am doing right now. But it does work. He calls and when I am not here, he says I'll try later. I used to rush to the phone and call back. Not so now, at least most of the time. He says he will call back so I wait for him to do so, which he does and that makes me feel wanted, which is nice.

And when I feel like calling him myself, I stop and ask myself: do I want to call him, to talk to him, or do I want some kind of reassurance, or am I calling as in wanting to know where he is or maybe even cause I feel I have to. And I make a conscious effort only to call when *I* want to call him. No other reason is oke. And it works for me.

Maybe it boils down to this: let him do a little work. It seems people just do not appreciate that which is easy to get. Which does not mean BTW that I am in favour of withholding, that's something all together different.

Dear Asha,

Thanks, glad to be back. I really missed the Catbox's support en discussions. Like Dan, I do better when I post and read. I know there is no end to the road, I know I need to see life as a constant series of leassons that wil never stop, so I better start enjoying them (Steve, you seem to have gotten the hang of it!!), and sometimes, more often then before, I do. But sometimes it is just very hard and I want to arrive somewhere, unpack my clothes and just settle down. . Well, I guess I had my holiday, had a little rest from myself and on with the show again. Will have to do some heavy thinking and talking I guess. But when C. calls (he was on the answeringmachine and got me smiling again) it just doesn't seem all that necessary anymore all of a sudden.... :-)

Glad things are oke for you two for now and I really like the tone of Steve's and your last posts. Hehe, joking about bad habits. Isn't that great??

Dear Lynn,

Can I borrow your bathtub sometime? I could really use one. A shower is not half as much fun, and you can't use those bubbly nice smelling baththings. Never mind, I have a better plan. I'll just get my own!!! Nice to hear you can laugh again, I do understand you beeing happy that Dan was punching the shed. At least it was clear he was angry. So much easier than mind reading is it not?

Love to all of you, take care

AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Sorry Theressa~ I had to go to an appointment. Sounded kinda of cryptic. Sorry. I meant that if the balance of power is equal, or close to equal in a relationship, then you feel secure and not off balance. It seems that the level of power ( not the exact word I guess....but a person's need for the other I guess) will be back and forth for each partner during the relationship, but not too far to one side all the time. Does that make sense? Feels easier than it is to write about I guess. Laura :o)

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Steve here.

Lynn: "but when I told Dan that I couldn't believe anyone could be that stupid, I didn't mean to call him names or put him down. I thought I was just stating a fact."

Ah, Lynn, but were you angry when you said it? Looking back now, do you realize you weren't stating a fact? Instead, you were using an "expression".

I think that most of the time when that particular expression is used, it is in a derogatory manner. It's almost like saying - "You can't really be that stupid - CAN YOU?"

I can understand Dan's mis-read of it.

Perhaps you truly didn't mean it in a negative way, but I think if you were fuming already, Dan may have assumed you were just lashing at him.

I think it would be mighty good of you, if when Dan didn't seem to know what you were wanting to talk about, that you explained it again, nicely - even if you feel he wasn't listening the first time and you are offended by that.

So much is conveyed in tone of voice, and add to that yesterday's baggage, and it's hard to say things clearly, without any perceivable underlying anger. This stops so many great opportunities for communication, because the one we are trying to communicate to can feel the anger. I know I tend to rebel when any communication comes at me that has an underlying anger in it. Sometimes, there is no underlying anger but I *THINK* there is, because I AM also carrying yesterday's baggage and my own underlying anger. So, I expect the worst. That is a very important lesson for me. I am working hard to let go of that ridiculous program that I've run for years. 

That's my part in it, the part I CAN control. 

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Becky here--

I have just scanned through the posts, and am glad to see some new people here as well as the return of some old friends. I am full of things to talk about, but when I try to do it, I feel tired and overwhelmed and like "who cares?" But I will try to let you in on the latest without writing a book---

For reasons too complicated to go into, husband is having to deal with certain aspects of his business in new ways. One possibility is forming a new and separate business, naming someone else as owner. This would enable him to continue providing some goods and services without certain complications and conflicts.

He brought up the idea of naming me as owner. My gut reaction was Not under these circumstances! Of course, he wasn't happy with me at all! I told him that I was offended that he would chose to not work on the relationship and himself, yet expect me to let him use my name for his benefit (and you can bet that in his mind it is for "his" benefit and only his)! I also said that I would need lots more info; that I wouldn't consent unless I had input into the business, and unless he was seriously working on his issues.

He told me that he would talk further with me if he decided that doing this was a possibility. I actually thought he was respecting me! Wrong! A couple of days later, he began talking about the situation. I sat quietly listening, and he became more and more strident and up tight. I said something like "I don't think that naming someone as an owner is a trivial thing." He called me stupid and ignorant, said that it is trivial, and that he had decided that this wouldn't work with me, and maybe he'd give the business to his former sister-in-law.

So, if I understand him, he can name Snoopy as owner of the business and nobody would care. Nobody that is but creditors that want their money and unhappy customers that decide to sue. Then who's liable? Snoopy, not my H!

I was so angry! He won't even pick up a book and read it, he won't do that small of a thing, but I'm supposed to help him out by giving him my name to use. I know he's mad because I wouldn't consent to his having full control under those circumstances. But I'm trying to be a responsible adult. If I own a business, i want to know what's going on!

So now I've let him down again! Sometimes I think I hate him! He has, in my eyes, turned his back on me and the marriage, yet expects me to meet his needs and demands. He's offended when i tell him that I feel no such obligation. I won't put myself at risk this way. What goes on in these people's brains?

This may not come to pass at all, as he had a meeting yesterday and learned of some other alternatives. He is finding more out tonight. I am trying so hard to do the right thing. My inner voice is telling me to stand up for myself no matter what. I know that in his present mindset that anything I do that is healthy he will resent and see as an attack. I've worked too hard on myself to cave in though. If he wants to interpret this as yet another way that Becky has failed, so be it.

What do you all think?

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dar Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the family,

Welcome to all new posters.

Dear Theressa, I have to apologize to you because the questions that you posted to Steve and I were taken by me as from being from a drop in guy. Lynn was sure they were from a woman and not a guy, as she felt that she would ask a guy's opinion about this sort of thing

My advice is do what you feel is right for you. You maybe feeling vulnerable right now and not sure of what life holds for you but do NOT go against your instincts, no mater who says what or what the current trend is.

From what you posted today, I think that this guy saw you as an easy conquest and when he found that you weren't, he backed off. There is an old saying here he chased her until she caught him, if this guy is serious then he will be back, if not, nothing lost and you have gained some knowledge and experience.

Dear Laura, I hope the therapist didn't feel intruded upon and that he was able to face or explain his negativity to you.

Steve, Welcome back, of course you will have to watch where I drive you. Lynn has asked me if I didn't think you both were alike (From you posts) and I have to agree, although you wouldn't have made it as a couple you both would have run for the hills upon meeting (my opinion).

Dear Asha, Glad that you became me for a little while, I sometimes wish that I were someone else, although I know that's not why you did it. I agree that I have to do some introspective thinking. My thoughts may not be to rational right now though, as few of them are.

Dear AJ, I'm glad that you had second thoughts about Lynn's tub and decided to get one of your own. After the time that it took me to put it in, I don't want to tear it out and start over again, Lynn would be without a tub for another 9 months, at least.

To the lady who lost her friend, I think that no matter what you both had agreed on, he had other thoughts and then he pushed you away, not the proper way to do so or, depending on your ages, his friends may have said something to him. Peer pressure, and this is how he dealt with it.

Dear Astrid, Thanks for posting about moot points, I didn't know how to spell it, now I do.

Lynn posted that she felt good about my punching the locker because it showed that I was angry. I haven't gone back to double check but I think that I once posted that I would take my anger out doing something and Dr Irene replied something to the effect that I wasn't facing my anger or facing the anger at Lynn.

I know that getting angry is normal, and expressing that anger is normal, my only fear is that words which may not mean to hurt will when said in anger. I still haven't learned that I can express my anger without retribution. I said I wouldn't, but here's a little advice: When you are mad Dan, write Lynn a letter. Keep writing and writing and writing and adding to it. Do Not Give It To Her! This is for you to help you clarify your thoughts. 

When you are calm, rephrase the letter so it is a calmer statement of your feelings. Use "when you do X, I feel Y" statements. Expect this exercise to take lots of time early on; you are learning a communication skill. When you are satisfied with the phrasing and accuracy of what you have to say, you can give it to her or talk to her about it. 

I think you get off track because when you calm down, you may be so relieved the anger is gone, you drop the content and don't communicate it - so the stuff never gets dealt with.. 

Last night Lynn asked me if she reacted to my checking the paper and looking at a house was what I expected. It was. Looking at it in a new light, it was very comical, although very serious at the time.

She also wanted me to explain about not feeling guilty about getting caught over the keys and if not why did I react the way that I did. I think that it was just a build up of the feelings from day one, deception, etc., and that I got angry at myself and those feelings then got defensive. I really can't say, but that's what I think. I think so too. You're upset with yourself for not having dealt with the keys thing, but I think  you're also mad with her for continuing to bring it up. You do need to deal with your feelings as per above, but you also need to set boundaries with Lynn. You can't feel that it's your job to answer to her (Lynn / mommy).

She also posted about leaving the cats and dogs with me if we separated. The funny thing, three of the cats were about a year old and feral when we caught them, and I used my boot laces to tame two of them. I guess that I would get along with them if it happened.

She has been pretty sick lately, and went to the Dr, She got the test results back, and told me that it was fatal. I didn't know how to react, the first feeling was nonbelief, then she said it again and I could tell that she was pulling my leg so I joked back.

Dr Irene,

I will bring up the points you posted about with my therapist. Also please, the new stuff. All the above is is an exercise for helping you articulate and calmly express your anger.

Trubble,

Glad that you're behaving and giving the outlook on life to all of us here. Rainbow for you.

I've got to go, thanks for being here.

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear Becky,

Just read your post, My thoughts, Stay Healthy.

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, January 10, 2001

S1

Dear Becky,

Oh boy, it's a shame you can't take over the company and fire him! Then get it on it's feet again and make a success of it.

I hear you loud and clear about the "hate" feelings. It has to feel yukky right down in your soul. I hate deceit. Sneaky sly stuff to me is yukky whether it's directed at me or not. I claim it's because I'm so gullible that I'll buy anything almost and then when I am had I feel so stupid.

Heigh Ho again Steve,

So you think that was below the belt, huh? I don't, but I'm willing to listen. I don't know what I could have said. Honey, remember, I wanted to talk about such and such????? Maybe one of my biggies is that I've been saying this for so many years that I don't know how to say it with a civil tongue any more.

Did you hear what he said about US? Run for the hills, indeed. We wouldn't have needed the internet. Dr. Irene could have picked up our shouts on a clear night. Isn't it funny about mates though. I think we ca be great friends, but would probably bore each other to tears in a relationship. That is one thing I have to say to Dan. I'll bet I've never bored him.

Funnies aside, I do so much need him to hear what I say at times and when I ask specifically and wait for him to bring it up at his convenience without threats or arguments, I feel sick at heart when I get told that he didn't know that I "really" meant I wanted to talk. Why would he think I said I wanted to talk???? I'm soooo confused.

Speaking of terminal, I have a virus. Good grief. To me terminal is having to go to the Dr. in the first place. I finally found a gem though.

Dan would take care of the critters. The basset had arthritis and couldn't get off the bed the other mornng and so he whined at Dan and he came and lifted him off. Now 82 lbs. and shorter than my knees is a lot of compact heavy dog, so they'd have a good home.

As for Dan with the paper and the move. I think he can get so theatrical at times. Bombs over, grabs the paper, sighs deeply, opens it up with a gesture like he's pulling teeth and then saying Fine, I'll get out of your life and leave the house for you and the animals. It was simply tooo much darling, so I didn't say a word and went to the bathtub. (Sheer bliss AJ)

One of those where I thought first, because once he walked out the door he had to talk his way back in, and he did.

Well guys, the saga continues. Turn in tomorrow for the next exciting chapter. Write us a blurb for this will you Jay?

Will Becky take over the company? Will Dan talk to Lynn? Will Steve backslide? etc, etc. Dr. Irene, Is this acceptable? I'm starting to bore myself. If not, ah well. I still just want a happy relationship with someone I can talk to.

Salmon Trubble, big salmon, and much Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, January 11, 2001

S1

Dear sisters and brothers: Thank you for your feedback - in reading these posts, I've come to realize that both men and women are going through these roller-coaster relationships. Its amazing. I apologize for previously writing to just sisters. I did not read the other posts. Now I do read them, and my heart breaks with these other situations. I relate to most of them, and my inner thoughts and questions are the same as everyone's.

My relationship with the psychologist for the last 18 months finally ended, I hope. We gave it another go around on New Years Eve, and steadily saw each other until 2 days ago. The verbal abuse got worse and worse. Saturday night he told me "shut up and go to sleep - you think I verbally abuse you? You haven't seen nothing yet!" I thought he was kidding, so I giggled. I had said and done nothing wrong, other than ask him about the church he thought about attending on Sunday with his friends. He then looked over at me and said, "I'm serious!" You think you've been abused, well, I said, don't ask me another question about what church I now go to, or I will abuse you greatly!" This man admits to intentionally withholding information, invalidating and discounting me, and intentionally provoking me so I will remain off balance. He says that "men and women alike can take my toxic verbal communication, because they are stronger than you". And that "people like him to be sarcastic". He says, "So what that I'm abusive. People love me (him) for it." I just sit there stunned! This is the way he justifies his behavior. Its no wonder he has never been able to be in a long term relationship. He admits to treating every one like this. And they love it?!! He's a mean, lean, abusive machine.

Anyway, he started again 2 nights ago with this same dialogue, and I just got my coat and walked out. I told him that I "can't do this" - and walked out the door.

God, I hope I can be strong enough to finally stay away this time. I need help!!!!! I don't know what draws me to him. This is my first relationship like this. I've read all the books. Gone to WEAVE, therapy. This can't be love. He does not love me, only for the sex. I have been treated so shabbily. Now I'm feeling obsessed about it (hey, at least I'm being honest). What is wrong with me? Have I sunken into such a deep hole? I'm educated, attractive and have all of the right stuff. My self esteem is in the dumpster, I guess. My goal is to stay completely away, though he lives in the same neighborhood.

Any suggestions for me here? I really would appreciate some stuff your way as to what you have done in the past to stay away from somebody who is not good for you. He is definitely not somebody who I can trust and cares about me, or he would never have done the things he has done to me. Though for some reason, this chemistry stuff is high intensity between us. Toxic! Any ideas from you?

Thank you very much,

Sharon