Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

Back to Catbox 14

OK Gang, PAGE 14 done. Steve & Asha, espec, please go look see. Also, Lurking Lawyer, are you my favorite Lurking Lawyer?

B1: Submit
Date: Friday, December 08, 2000

S1

Becky here,

(((Jay))) you have had a time of it! I'm glad you came through alright!

Suzy, I don't attend college, I am an instructor at a community college, also a librarian at a parochial school. I did go to college as an adult, though, graduating in 1994. I think I've said before that your husband and mine seem to hold similar attitudes. He also was very offended when I told him that I would want what the law says I should have if we divorced. He has tried from the beginning to arrange things so I would get little or nothing, and I think he is dismayed to realize that he may not know as much as he thinks he does about what the law says. For example, he refused to add my name to the house because he does not want to consult me if he ever decides to put the house up for collateral for business purposes. he believes that the house is his alone, even though we finished paying for it after we were married. (He says he used "his" money to pay for it, so it's "his.") My lawyer says that it is marital property.

My husband has a thing against women; he denies it, but others have noticed it too. He uses that as an excuse to accuse me of using him, of wanting to take him, etc. I used to think I had to convince him that he is wrong. No more. I know who I am, I am not the things he says. I'm plain sick of his insecurities!

Theressa, I understand your anger. The injustice of it all gets to me too! I am often told also, that I've "never done anything." Just try to remember that 1. he wants you to lose your temper; it makes him look good in comparison, and 2. you want to be better than that, and that's what's important. Strive to be the person you want to be, focus on that and you'll find yourself engaging less and less. In other words, your purpose will have changed. You'll no longer be wanting to get back or win, you'll be wanting to be dignified and strong, a person with inner calm. You'll be choosing integrity, and you'll feel so much better about yourself! It takes time and practice; stick with it! remember that you are undoing many years of habitual behavior and thinking.

I hope we all have a good weekend!

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000

S1

Dear Doc and Trubble,

I found this site while looking for another (typical) and have spent the past 3 hours reading about Lynn and Dan as well as the others' stories. May I just say, good luck to all of you. It's crazy how love can be a huge source of stress and pain for many, yet at the same time it possesses some addictive quality that forces us to continue at all costs.

In any case, I'm 26 and for the past 2 and a half years have been single. In this time I've dated, but nothing serious has come of it. I suppose I wasn't ready...

From the age of 15 I was constantly in a relationship... each lasted from six months to three years, with maybe a month in between. When the last one ended I vowed that I would stay single until I no longer feared being alone. I also wanted to know myself, not in the way that significant others defined me, but in the purest way... how I defined myself. For so long I shifted and shaped myself to those around me... suppressing the qualities that weren't compatible with that person, and compromising my values and beliefs, if expressing them would rock the boat. It got to a point where I didn't remember what was important to me, I didn't know what I liked, or who I wanted to become as a person. As you can imagine, this existence was very unsatisfying and very unhealthy. The "true" Tara was buried so deep inside by this time, that I had no clue how to find her and if I did how to "revive" her. I mourned what I thought was her "death" for a long time.

After a year, I somehow slowly chipped away all the thought processes and stagnant behavior that kept "me" dormant for so long. I was no longer a shadow of myself and the happy, independent little girl I once was emerged. This was a beautiful time and the "re-awakening" was evident to everyone around me. I was a positive force to myself and to others. I became extremely picky in those I chose to date and at the first sign of a "red flag" I'd choose to maintain my self-respect and walk away than to stick around... something I hadn't done before.

In any case, I feel that I know myself better than I ever have and I'm grateful for the time I allowed myself to get to know me. Somewhere in all this, however, I forgot or it seems as though I've "unlearned" how to be in a relationship with someone. I tell myself "don't settle!" so at the first sign of imperfection, I run.

I can't imagine that I just haven't met "him" seeing as I used to have no trouble jumping into a long term relationship... I'm wondering if I'm now so afraid of "losing myself" again that I won't let anyone get close enough to be in a relationship.

I guess I'm at some sort of crossroads where I've stopped the co-dependent pattern of having someone just for having someone's sake and I know what I want and what I don't want, but I haven't learned how to apply it. My question to you is... what's the next step? I'm ready to share myself with someone and to be shared with, I just don't know how to do the healthy "give yourself without losing yourself" thing.

Help? :) Tara

P.S. Thank you for listening.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000

S1

Dear Suzy, I know what you mean about the paintbrush/. I went to some art therapy sessions the week I was in hospital earlier this year. One of the best things they did was I got there one day and said what I really wanted was to throw paint representing all my anger onto a huge piece of paper. I was given the biggest piece they could find and I threw the paint. It was really therapeutic and the other people in the room were in stitches by the end. It went from angry to playful. It was the one therapy I wanted to continue when I left.

I do have brushes and paint around, although my real talent seems to be in writing. An artist friend reckons we produce our best work after a time of intense suffering.

For years this friend, who is a trained artist didn't paint. The church we were both in said she had to 'die' to her old nature! Finally she seems to have gone through a whole lot of Christian counseling and started to paint again. She never had the word 'codependency' I think until I told it to her. Things are not that advanced in England. But now she is an absolute shining example of a recovered codependent. And she has a job teaching art. She started to paint again and I think it was really significant for her.

Funnily enough, when she first showed me her pictures I thought she was not very talented. They were really mediocre. Now they are not and I can se the talent was there. Now she is being described by the same church but newer members as a woman of God!!!

It is kind of hopeful to realise that church recognized it's very serious mistakes. Maybe they will eventually get the submission thing right. Now it is a creative place.

On the Paxil/Seroxat front, I think from what I have now read, some people have really bad and some very good reactions to it. I think the danger is its unpredictability. Apparently, according to people close to me I have acted weirdly at times while on it. It seems to have come and gone. Obviously I post when rational!

I got two letters in the same envelope this morning. One saying I was insane and the other they had decided I wasn't. No apology.

I will write suggesting practical changes. Maybe they could get a few tips on patient care from the hospital in my home town.

Also, strangely, as he definitely IS passive aggressive, and has problems I remembered this morning that although initially the depression was linked to the way he was, his issue always was that I was my own person! Also I felt warmer towards him as I remembered that it is not his fault he is so strange! I used just to be thankful he didn't drink and think of him as a gentle person with communication problems.

I have a feeling that Paxil/Seroxat may have nearly ruined all our lives. Also I am now wondering did something really happen to scare my daughter. Either she lied or it did. It has never added up that one day she was telling me what a good mother I was and how I was always there for her and the next making these allegations. I have NO memory of doing anything to her. Maybe something did happen. I think this is definitely going to need a miracle to sort out as it seems to have so many layers.

And thanks. I am very bad at remembering the breathing techniques.

Dr Irene I am dying to know what you think about Paxil!!!!! I think all these drugs are miracles.

Also, Suzy, the advice from the consultant was that I should be OK after about 14 days. I did try to withdraw slowly and that gave me just as many problems. Fortunately, there is no history of heart disease in the family. Having started I may as well carry on to the end! My doctor wasn't against me withdrawing from it (gradually)! very much she seems to respect my opinion on my own health.

I read on a chart in the bad hospital ward that there is a drug called ? Mithril which doesn't have SSRI effects (I presume, serotonin withdrawal symptoms. I have never been offered this. I also had a really bad reaction to the drug Trazadone. Got all the symptoms to indicate discontinuing it. went crazy when I did for a day or two but stopped having fainting fits and feeling really dreadful.

Sorry everyone if these posts are long and boring. I actually have a feeling that as the days go by I am getting very long winded!!

One other thing. I have N EVER thought where we live a cat was a good idea. I am not by nature a cat lover. I have been planning on getting a cat. In the cold rational light of day, it just seems provocative to get a cat when my husband and I have always agreed it is a bad idea. Good grief. some poor moggy would have probably ended up squashed on the main road if I hadn't come to my senses.

Now I have to work through what the reality of everything is.

Dear Tara. If only I had recognized the roots of codependency in myself as young a you. You sound like you have done so well. I guess in the end, what all of us wanted and needed was someone who would give us RESPECT and let us live out 'to thine own self be true.' I NEVER understood what that meant until this year. I hope you find your own true soul mate. Maybe the secret is to be happy whether or not you are in a relationship or single.

They should teach about codependency in schools. I actually think that it would be more helpful than drug education. My daughter started glue sniffing directly as a result of this and I have seen enough of how she reacts in relationships to realise the biggest disservice I have done to her is to give her a role model of co dependency.

For the record. I have only found one English Dr Irene. Interestingly she also operates email advice. No boards though. In some ways it would be helpful to have some reflection of English law which seems very different from American.

I used to think American's were really over the top with their emphasis on therapy. Now I think they have a lot right! (Doubtful. We do so much therapy cuz we need so much therapy! Giggle!) If it hadn't been for all the American websites I wouldn't have got through this far. And when my son helps me get them online (reliant on a 13 year old!) I am definitely having a codependency page and I am going to put as much English law on as I can.

So far, I have got dancing flowers on every page courtesy of my son.

I have to laugh. My son is playing basketball in a tournament at his school from 8 till 8 today. He is the best player in the school so last year he won the best player award, He is quite miffed as the school seem to have realized he would win again and made it 'the best team'. I hope they have put him on the weakest side! I must be one of the few parents who hopes their son will not be made out to be the best. He has a ridiculously high IQ. Is brilliant at art and music. His art teacher says that he is A level standard at 13 (You take A levels around 17-18. He can write really well and he is a computer wizard. Just to add to that the girls like him....... Again, most of the recognition of his needs is in America!!! (Here giftedness is frowned upon.) I believe people need to learn to fail and I do wonder if my husband is giving me a hard time as marriage is the one thing he has not managed to be successful at!

He comes from a family who are all pretty gifted. The difficulties with my daughter and family are the first real difficulty and they are in denial about it. Just close their eyes. Perhaps it has become too painful not to be successful?

meanwhile for us lesser mortals.........I think I would like to get something done really well. love Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000

S1

Hi, B. here. I'm much behind on the posts. But I got to what Steve said: "Thanks for your words of encouragement B. Now go twirl around the house topless if you wish...oh my gosh, was I ever shocked when I read that. I must be really sheltered. "

You are most welcome, and oh how you made me laugh!

I feel I need to explain a bit. Many times I'm on my way to the bathroom, I start getting undressed, but too many things get in the way so I'm going around half naked, usually topless. The same happens after the shower. Now, imagine the situation: I am running around, juggling the million things I have to do, H is (usually) sitting on the sofa in front of the TV, not helping at all, but making comments such as: "What's that, the neighbors can see you!", or "hey, you're improperly dressed, get decent" (sheer play acting, this one, and he knows I know that. He imitates certain movie characters) or something like that.

I used to get really angry. I do everything around here, and he sits there and makes controlling, abusive comments? What do I care about the neighbors, What makes him think he can tell me how to dress, etc.

After a long time it suddenly hit me one day: I finally realized he was only ACTING controlling and abusive, because he feels embarrassed and weak to pay me certain compliments! He does not know how to say nice things sometimes, so he acts naughty instead! Just like the boy who loved me when we were 12 used to throw things at me (chalk, toads!!!) or pull my hair because he was too embarrassed to tell me he loved me!

Then I also realized his "you have no sense of humor". He knew he meant to pay me a compliment. He thought his way was funny. But I go and get insulted and angry. He could not see his fear, and he could not see his way was not funny, but controlling, demeaning and yucky.

When I realized all this, the next time he did that I simply "translated" him to himself: I said OUT LOUD the compliment that he MEANT but could not utter. Then I said, that this way was the only way to get a positive reaction from me, and I explained that telling me how much he likes me topless would get him my smiles, hugs and love, whereas disguising his thoughts and displaying abuse instead - would beget him only an angry, hurt wife, who doesn't want him!

Well, when he heard my "translation" and explanation he laughed, and re-told me the compliment, this time properly. He was smiling his smile of "gee, you make me do such embarrassing things!", and seemed to enjoy his own courage, that he was telling me "the truth" and by that giving me the power (the power to know how much he cares about me, so scary). He enjoyed my positive reaction, too. I could see him feeling: "hey, it was scary, but it wasn't so bad!"

And he's doing it the right way more and more.

And I, at my end, am learning more and more to "translate" him, so that instead of seeing the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of abuse, I see what he really feels inside, and I see he is only trying to protect himself from his fears, not trying to hurt me on purpose. So by "translating" I can gently teach him how I want to be treated.

OK, now part of me wants to apologize for the long post, but the other part thinks: maybe now that I explained all the parts and stages of it, it would help someone here. Love, B.

P.S. read till the end of box 14. Theressa, you are doing so great! Asha and Steve, you are working. Boy, what hard work... Becky, how are you? And love to all the rest.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000

S1

Dear B . Good to find your post. You have certainly put a new perspective on things. I am so glad you got through to a good point with your husband. It really made me think.

I have taken my husband's refusal to talk about divorce as a control issue. He has said clearly this is not what he wants. What if it is just too painful for him to discuss?

What if he just couldn't handle my depression?

What if he has been trying and I have been rejecting him?

What if he isn't as have been seeing him?

Maybe he also felt abused by me.

I am going to take a leaf out of your book and give him some credit.

I was going to file for divorce soon. I am going to wait. Now with the Paxil thing I think I need to wait. It seems unfair to file for divorce when we have only just started family therapy.

What if we have both misunderstood. We have been together since we were really young.

He has been doing loads of housework and said this is "doing what he can' to help. I have wanted hugs. But what if these were his hugs?

What if it is not control but kindness. The best he can do.

What if he is locking his study door as he just can't cope. Maybe he is crying behind there.

Some things he has done are abusive and I do think he has made me a scapegoat. But weirdly I can't hate him any more.

I used to take him as I found him. We used to have some brilliant times. I really did used to think of him as a gentle man with a problem with shyness and communication.

He used to feel safe with me as I was equally shy. I stopped being shy and am now quite gregarious.

What if that made him feel unsafe?

What if we can find some common ground again.

what if I stop and reassess his actions?

Thanks B. My first step is to go and put on clothes he likes and some make up. He may not be ready for this but that is not the point.

Becky. One thing I am worried about is I don't want you not to take Paxil if that is prescribed as people do have different experiences. I guess the thing is to be aware that some people have bad effects from it and some good.

My guess is, Dr Irene, please comment! that it affects everyone differently as we all have a slightly different chemical make up. Try it; give it a shot and if it is not working for you, stop it. Becky, are you OK? I must have missed your posts...

In my case, please God let the nightmares end! Jay, this is wonderful. I'm sure he's not as bad as he appears and he is hurting inside. Steve, thank you for opening up to us and showing everybody that an angry person is not an escapee from Hell.. Unfortunately, that's the rap guys (yes, especially men) get and unfortunately, live up to the rep - because they haven't learned the skills to disengage, manage the anger, begin to respect the Self. Plus, they believe the bad rep!

Jay, this doesn't mean it will work. It means you're doing everything in your power to give your marriage a chance. Hopefully hubby will do his part. If he starts to, I hope he joins us here. Then, you both would have to keep on doing your parts until your parts are so over learned, they are automatic. If you can't do your parts, it means you will feel like you wasted more time with him. No promises, just hope.

Love to everyone, Jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene. I felt I have to comment on the comment you made to Steve about not disempowering the guy as he CHOSE to commit suicide.

I don't think people always do. I didn't choose to try when I became suicidal. It was a reaction to events too terrible to live with. I think it can be like an illness. My friend Jim who died of a heart attack also once said that he found this to be true for himself. I think you can just be so distraught the feeling takes you over. The reason I knew I wasn't suicidal the other day was about feeling in control of that kind of feeling.

I ALWAYS thought before things happened to me there WAS a choice. I don't as a result of my own experiences.

There is a choice to get help and live. But I don't think that happens for everyone.

I would say there is an attention seeking non suicide attempt. The cry for help. Sometimes that goes tragically wrong.

My religion, nature, beliefs all meant that I thought I would NEVER act that way.

What I d know is that even despite recent experiences if I ever had suicidal thoughts again I would get myself safe very quickly. The human mind is an odd thing. love, Jay

None of what you are saying is wrong Jay. You are correct; what in fact is choice and what is not in terms of our biology is concerned is something we will probably never know. My point was less about the man's free will than in the irony I saw in Steve's siding with the man. While siding and support are acts civilized humans do to help their downtrodden, the very act tends to disempower the individual being helped. You are most likely to notice this tendency on this site among the disempowered types who support and validate each other - yet remain disempowered because they believe their status. And here was Steve, jubilant in his new empowerment, asking to cut him a break. I was struck by the irony and chuckled....

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000

S1

Sorry, the seroxat (Paxil) withdrawal seems to result in messing up my words and spelling. I noticed this as the post was going through.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, December 09, 2000

S1

Dear all,

Sorry for the double entry. My computer was on the fritz and I didn't think it went through. In any case, I wrote something for a friend of mine a few days ago. She asked me to make her what we call a "Cheat Sheet" so I sat down at the computer and put down everything that I've learned about co-dependency and relationships and just being alive in general. I hope some of you find it helpful:

1) Your worth cannot be determined by someone else. For one, no person's affections are guaranteed and two, you know how wonderful you are better than anyone else.

2) Don't force or expect someone to express themselves when you need them to. When and if they're ready, they'll come to you. Be patient and have faith that they will and be willing to listen. Sometimes when we take the "me" out of the equation we see things much more clearly.

3) Remember that people who say things that are meant to hurt you are hurting inside themselves. Be gentle with them, even if only in your thoughts. Negative feelings towards anyone equals a state of negativity within yourself. Losing control and reacting out of pride or bruised egos gives "them" the upper hand.

4) YOU decide how you're going to feel. The only person in control of your mind is you, so make sure your inner dialogue is full of pleasantries. Fake it till you make it! :) It does work.

5) Be accountable for your actions. If your instincts are telling you not to do something, listen to them. If you choose to go along with something you were hesitant about, remember that your body warned you if things do go awry. This awareness should eliminate any surprises.

6) See yourself not better or worse than anyone else. We all come from and strive on the same energy force of the universe. You're as good as YOU CHOOSE to be not as good or bad as someone tells you that you are.

7) Remember how addictive it is when you feel good about yourself around someone else. Aim to make others feel good about themselves and expect nothing in return. In the grand scheme of things, you'll automatically feel good about yourself when you make someone else happy. Furthermore, miss no opportunity to tell someone how wonderful you think they are.

8) Don't expect to click with all people. You can't have all things in common with all persons, but you can respect them and learn from your differences.

9) Don't be discouraged if you feel you've regressed. We repeat experiences when we still have something we need to learn from them. Don't beat yourself up if you find yourself in a place you thought you'd outgrown. Sometimes, we're "there" again as a gentle reminder of which way not to go.

AND last but most certainly... not least...

10) Love yourself!!! It will open the floodgate of receiving love from others.

I think all of you are great, I hope this helps... Thanks Trubble and Doc for letting me share :)

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Dr I:

Thanks so much for your blue notes.

I haven’t had time to check the other posts, but I will do that later. Just want to respond to Dr. Irene’s blue pencil.

Dr I said <<Steve had to have felt less important to you than the dog. What little, tiny things could you have done to contribute to his feelings? >>

I give the dog “treats” – something special I do from the heart. I don’t do this for Steve nearly as often. Not because I don’t care, but because I *used to* (I’m stressing this because these things have been changing a lot) feel that whatever I did as a “treat” for Steve, wasn’t quite right – if I rubbed his back, he’d sometimes pull away, if I made coffee it often wouldn’t be the right strength, he didn’t seem to like what I cooked etc etc. I started to feel inadequate and stopped offering to do the little special things as much. I just felt I didn’t know how to please him, so I stopped trying so hard. Betcha you were making him happy. He just didn't know how to catch the automatic reactions around his frustration. You let his junk affect you (Yes, this stuff is less satisfying than appreciative behaviors, but the lack of appreciation was not about you.)

<<How come you didn't find a bed you both liked?>>

I guess we have a bit of a difference preference about soft vs. hard mattresses. The old one I liked was soft, the new one is hard. It’s not as big a deal to me as it is to Steve, but I guess it was another “small sacrifice” that has added up to bigger resentments. Part of the gloomy yukkies Steve carried around, I think.

<<When you "sacrifice" so much, you are going to get really, really mad when you think he should be giving in. Like with the kids, for example.>>

Yes this makes sense. I think I “sacrificed” feeling it was “compromise” and that there would be compromises on his end too. I know he feels there were. I know that he has paid dearly through his kids and his tumultuous relationship with his X, for example. But I still didn’t feel there was healthy, balanced mutuality coming from his end, and that’s where the smaller compromises started to add up into “sacrifice”. The point is when you compromise and compromise, and you don't get big stuff you want back, you get angry! Who wouldn't!

<<"Sacrifice" is a better word. By the way, he does it too. Surprised?>>

yup! :)

I think he may have “sacrificed” in ways I didn’t want him to, though. Compromised We’ve talked about this a bit and he seemed to think I didn’t want him to socialize or look at other women etc. I have *never* been that way! My X boyfriend, while we were together, met X-girlfriends for coffee, socialized without me (with my encouragement – we had time together too), at one time had another female roommate, and I *never* felt the least bit threatened. I think the closest I’ve felt to jealousy was when there was a real possibility of Steve going back to his Ex. I never thought I would be in that sort of situation. I felt like I should have stepped right out of the situation and yet I didn’t. I cared for Steve a lot by this time and because it seemed he cared for me too, the “Ex” stuff seemed like some kind of surreal dream that I couldn’t seem to get a grasp on. Anyway, I’m getting off track. Yes and no. Because Steve could have used the ex thing to bring you in; to comfort you and help you feel emotionally secure, but he didn't know how. (Steve, don't get defensive here, OK? It's true; you're still learning...)

<<Asha, do you see what you are doing? This is very subtle. Tell me instead how mad you are at him! It's OK! I'm sure he acted plenty creepy, but what Steve is referring to, and I'm glad he's disengaged, is that in just reading the post, you are the good guy and he is the bad guy. And, I know from your perspective, that's exactly how it seems. And, that's fine. But, do you see your anger? >>

Yes, I do see the anger. Good. I’m not denying the hurt and the anger that I felt (and still do feel at times, sometimes more than others). I’m not sure if it seems like I want to hurt him when I post my ill feelings. I don’t. It comes across as a zinger, no different from the ones he's put forth that have hurt you. Specifically, it seems like you want to let people know that it's not your fault. I did all this good stuff, and this is what he did back. He's the guilty one, not me. That's the implication. Steve bristled at this stuff..

I’ve been trying to get at the source of the anger and why I feel it. I hesitate sometimes before posting, because I know certain things will appear hurtful to him. Don't work so hard at protecting him Asha. You will resent him for it later. Instead, speak your piece and hear him if he objects. I don’t want to hurt him, but I want both he and I to understand what my feelings stem from. In no way do I want to make him a “bad person”. I know he isn’t. Just he maybe didn’t have the knowledge and tools to give back what I had hoped he would want to give back. I think Steve would give you anything...when he's not hot under the collar. I feel like Steve is starting to get those tools now. Yes.

I’m also dealing with fear – the fear of being off balance – my roller coaster riding, where I swing up and down with Steve’s moods. I’m really trying to change this. Good! You are the only one who can fix this one. I think where the dog comes in is that I don’t feel like making radical changes in my lifestyle, then swinging back again. Don't. The dog was representative of some of this backward and forward swinging. Yes. It's not about the dog. It's about the up and down, back and forth. At least that's what it's about for you. Dog outside, dog on the bed with me when I’m alone, dog downstairs etc all depending on whether Steve and I were together, and if we were getting along. I hate this sort of constant change. I’ve decided lately that I want my journey of growth to be less melodramatic and I don’t want to make “sacrifices” that bring me out of balance. Good.

<<Asha: Do a little soul searching, please. In your frustration with Steve, have you ever gotten back at him by using the pet to make Steve feel less than? (I would be very surprised if you hadn't since this is one of the few places where you did have some power. You certainly didn't over his kids for example. And, you are human. No matter how much you swallow your anger, it's GOT to be there...)>>

Oh yes, the anger is there, as well as hurt and a feeling of rejection. I guess it’s all basically the same thing. Right.

I want to be totally honest. I don’t feel I’ve purposely, consciously tried to use the dog to “get back” at Steve, but it’s possible (probably even maybe? Probable. ) that it happened on a less than conscious level. Exactly. I know you did not do this on purpose - any more than Steve set out to hurt you when he did. For example, when Steve was cold and distant to me it was natural to want to seek out affection from the dog. This is nothing new, because even as a child I did this when I felt hurt or upset. My dogs have always accepted, reassured me, and loved me unconditionally. You reacted to one of Steve's broken pieces (with a broken piece of your own). When Steve, for example, rejected one of your "treats" out of his own stuff, you took the rejection to heart and got solace where you could. Steve reacted to this. And on and on.

I can see right now how it would have appeared to Steve that I was “choosing the dog over him” though it was really more that I felt rejected and was looking for comfort from a source I knew would give it. Exactly. One person's broken piece bouncing off the partner's broken piece. When Steve would sleep downstairs, I used to resent my “compromise” that the dog wasn’t allowed to sleep in the room. It was sorta like giving something up that was of great comfort to me and not getting enough back because I would feel so alone and rejected. Right.

When Steve decided to move out, and was sleeping downstairs, I decided to let the dog sleep upstairs with me again. I sorta decided I wasn’t doing anyone any favors by sleeping alone and being unhappy about it. I guess that could be seen as “getting back” at him, but even if Steve never knew or cared about where the dog slept, I would have wanted the comfort and protection of the dog. I just stopped caring about how he would interpret this. Yes, of course. But do you see the polarization that is occurring simply because each of you is bouncing off the partner? This is why its so important to find your Center and simply let other be.

I think if anything, my anger came out more towards him in areas where he did seem to respect my input, such as at work. Sure. That's where the balance of power was more even. Also, I think my general tone towards him was basically resentful even when he was feeling happy. We had lots of work power struggles too. I knew I was angry at a certain level, but I also felt sure at that time, that he just didn’t understand me He didn't. and I put a lot of energy into trying to “get” him to understand. I never completely buried my anger – I think I did try to express my concerns as clearly as I knew how. I wrote lots of letters to him and spent lots of time trying to identify the problem but we just kept going round and round and round… until I found this site. And, you're still going round and round, just beginning to understand your respective roles better.

I knew that “getting back at him” wasn’t the answer, maybe subconsciously I did this sort of stuff, but I knew on a conscious level that hurting back wasn’t going to solve anything. A lot of my anger towards him would begin before he left to see the kids (without me) and would remain until a couple of days after he came back. I know that that was a definite pattern for me. That's how big the children issue is for you. Big!

I don’t know if this answers the question. I’ve tried to answer honestly though. I’m sure there are certain things going on in my subconscious that I’m still unaware of.

Thanks again Dr. Irene. You’ve gotten me thinking some more, as always. Asha Thank you Asha. We're amazing creatures, we human types (Sorry Trubble.). What always amazes me is the scope of our potential power. Look at all the little places identified here, where you and Steve have acted unconsciously, automatically with subsequent negative outcome. Each and every one of those nooks and crannies are opportunities to exercise choice, take control of your life, exercise free will... Wow!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Dear all . This is really a post to the males on the site. But as the seroxat withdrawal is really taking hold I hope I am going to make sense! I seem to have stopped using punctuation and forgotten how to spell and keep hitting the wrong computer keys. Confusion, anxiety, electric shock type feelings weepiness, just about anything happens and my research shows this seems to be from sudden or slow withdrawal. Suzy you were so lucky to have the withdrawal you did. And the way you are thinking, instead of making it smaller, you are making it bigger.

Weird how some people find a miracle from a drug which gives others nightmares. Today seems bad in terms of being hyper sensitive to everything so apologies if I offend someone in advance!

Steve, I could really identify with Asha about the way she stopped bothering about the little treats. I stopped this too. My husband when he did love me used to buy me the most wonderful presents. He is surprisingly god at choosing clothes for me and always did give me wonderful ethnic jewelry and clothes.

But I have never been able to reciprocate. Whatever I bought it was never right. Sometimes it has stayed in one place for over a year. I would love for him to pretend (like the year he cooked me a birthday meal which consisted mostly of cabbage) Or to tell me what he wanted.

You see Steve, the dog gives Asha what she needs. He accepts politely and gratefully what she gives so she gives to the dog again. Steve: Fight the urge to bristle here. She's right and this is valuable info! (But, you may already know that.)

I don't know if this is a male thing. But I think it is about us? females? needing to feel what we give is valid.

In my case my husband won't respond and tell me what he does like and want. In 20 years he has never been able to understand I would appreciate it if he would open up enough to tell me. I still would like to give him something he actually wanted. I would like to feel that what I gave was valued.

Unfortunately for me I am just back at square one.

He doesn't want to post here. He must be getting codependency terminology from somewhere. He has just told me he is "not engaging." THIS DR IRENE IN THE CONTEXT OF MY TELLING HIM YOU HOPED HE WOULD POST!!! That's fine Jay. Why would you have expected otherwise? Just let him be.

Yesterday he thought I was stalking him for being in the kitchen at the same time! I don't think it is me who is crazy.

Trying to give him some credit. It is not easy when someone deliberately blocks out anything you say......

Not easy when he says things like "maybe you should be sectioned while you withdraw from the drug. Again we have the "other people have told him" bit.

I fail to see how they could have. On two occasions when I was depressed they refused to have me in hospital and repeatedly told me I was having cause related depression and was NOT mad.

Probably, what was said was IF I became a danger to myself or others then they would section me (as they would anyone) and this was probably said to allay his fears at a specific time.

How long do I have to keep trying to prove I am NOT suicidal?

I guess in some senses, for quite a while.

What I wish is I could see when he is genuinely worried and when he is being abusive. Literally, my mind furs up.

He ....when I was a danger to myself they told me I was sane. When I definitely wasn't they told me I was.....

Just chosen not to be self controlled and eaten the selection kit I bought for my sons stocking. I knew I couldn't keep chocolate in the house that long/......

Asha and Steve. My husband and I also had the mattress problem. We got two different mattresses and put them together. If you have different beds as well tie the legs together. (Or you end up with a crack you fall down!

Dr Irene...official from my mother in law. She thinks I am demon possessed.....! Maybe I am the escapee from hell!!!!! This is truly ironic as my husband has always insisted that I think he is demon possessed. (Theology from the church we went to.) This is one of his BIG issues. Drop it Jay. This is not your stuff.

Dying to Know how he will cope with this. Drop it. Work your own program.

Hopefully he will see how stupid the whole issue is. He even wrote this on the family therapy agenda. He also appears to want to 'stop' people praying for him!!!! Again an agenda issue. Boy will the therapist and her team have some fun.....How can you counsel a man who refuses to believe that his wife doesn't think he is demon possessed. (To be fair in our very young days we were in the sort of church where everyone decided they were possessed by demons and demons got cast out every other moment.)

Actually. Having genuinely (yes) lived in a haunted house and having some spiritualism in the family I do think there are powers of light and darkness that latch onto people and make the negative things in them worse. I didn't do myself any favors getting interested in witchcraft as a teenager....But I just think that most of the demon theology is hype. You can pray for someone and they can feel better and free without a lot of screaming. Please don't criticize others so...

Personally I think that it is often the way people avoid counseling and therapy. an easy way to avoid the issues.

Well. off to bake a Christmas cake. Love Jay

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Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Becky here,

I posted last night but I don't see it. Darn! I was so brilliant, too! :-)

I don't have time to try to recreate it, so I'll sum up: First, Jay, my doctor is going to have me try Celexa. He was going with Paxil but when I expressed some concern he willingly changed his mind, said he didn't want me having negative feelings going in. I haven't gotten them yet and with a major storm on the way, I may not get to the store until Tuesday. Steve, I may be reading you wrong, but I go with my gut feelings when I read your posts. I'm aware that I may be projecting my anger at my husband onto you since you seem similar in some of your attitudes. Where you differ is in your willingness to examine what's going on in regards to your own thinking, and I do give you credit for that. I do agree with the Doctor that the dog is not the real issue, just as bath towels, juice glasses, and clutter are not our real issues: it's all about control and one person wanting most or all of it. unfortunately, my husband doesn't want to see that. And unfortunately, (or not depending on how you look at it) my tolerance for the resulting nuttiness is pretty low! Celexa is another super drug. Let us know how it goes...

Gotta go, Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Sorry, thinking about it what I said about demons is offensive. Dr Irene is right. love Jay Hey, you could have been criticizing cat poop and I would have said the same thing. My point: Stop going outside yourSelf. Stay inside you Jay and don't worry about others. Have you noticed how much time you spend outside???

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the family, Hello FakeDaddyDan

First off welcome to all newcomers.

I haven't read any of the posts since I last posted so am afraid that I can't give any comments on what's been happening with your lives.

I guess that I'll start out with Thanksgiving weekend. The first couple of days were really nice, we had a great time with the grandkids and also met some old friends. I had lunch with my High School Sweetheart and we talked about events in our lives after we broke up until the present.

Sunday, Lynn's dad and his lady friend met us for brunch and he started in complaining about the political situation, interrupting and giving his ideas. It went downhill from there. The waiter brought us the wrong bill and I returned it to him, over Lynn's dad's objections and he apologized. When he brought another bill, I took it to make sure that it was the right one, Lynn's dad said Go----- it, give it to me as I'm paying it. Lynn asked me to get her out of there which I was very happy to do. I don't know why but I have had enough of his tactics. I felt pretty good about it too.

On the way home we had car trouble and ended up spending the night in another town till it was fixed. We then proceeded home and got about 20 miles from home and got behind a dump truck towing a trailer with a backhoe on it. I got a little close and Lynn unbuckled her seatbelt. I pulled off at the first wide spot that I found, hopefully to let him get far enough ahead that I wouldn't run into him again, no such luck. When I pulled out Lynn felt that I was only doing 15 MPH, and that I was doing it just to make a statement about no one telling me how to drive.

The other night Lynn said that she wanted to talk, I said OK. She then went on to say how she felt about the truck and about her dad and my road rage. So far so good. She then asked me when she was going to get the respect that I seem to give my elders. Zinger! Ouchhh! Ouchhh! Ouchhh! Lynn, next time try, "When you speed like that, it makes me feel frightened and helpless. Why do that when I'm in the car with you?" Now you're specific, not attacking, and really asking a question he can answer. (Except, it's not funny, but I trust you to find a way to jazz it up.) I didn't give her any reply as I didn't want to be accused of telling her how to feel, as I have done in the past, not knowing that I was doing that. Once again, I thought for myself. She told me that she wanted my feedback. But since I couldn't give her any, then she felt that to kiss me goodnight would compromise her feelings also.

I did tell her that as far as respecting my elders, I didn't consider her one even though she is a year and a half older than I. I think that this was why I felt good about the ending with her dad Giggle!, I had been brought up to adults were right no matter what and you had to respect them for it. He was wrong and didn't deserve any respect, I took a long time to recognize this fact, but I have. I know that when I was teaching, that I earned my students respect and didn't demand it. You lose when you demand and win when you let things occur naturally.

Friday last, we started to decorate the tree, and Lynn didn't seem herself, as she has always looked forward to this time of year, something I haven't for a long time, but am looking forward to this year. I asked her if she wanted to talk and she said that she couldn't talk to/with me about anything.

I haven't looked forward to Christmas since 90 but this year for some reason, the commercialization and all the hoopla surrounding it doesn't matter, it's the day and the feelings which the day conveys for me. I am even enjoying decorating the tree. Yesterday it was fun watching Lynn decide which ornament to put on, and then me deciding which branch they would be safe on. Safe on... Giggle. The pets...

I went to the therapist last Thursday, and we did a sort of genealogy of my siblings. I told her that I had a chart already drawn up here at home if she wanted me to bring it next time. She said no. She then told me that from the information which I had given her that although I don't necessarily have a depressive personality that I do go too deep into depression when I am there. I already know this. The one thing which I don't understand is why knowing how many brothers and sisters I have and their ages is relevant to the reason that I am going to her. I never thought of this until just now, I am going to have to ask her. She's a family therapist. Good!

The thing that really scares me about the future of our relationship is that Lynn has said that if it works out, it does if not, oh well. I find that there are days that I feel the same way. I know that indifference can be just as harmful to a meaningful relationship as anything else. (Sounds like anger to my uneducated ears.)

Lynn no longer posts when I am around, which is her decision and I don't read the posts or post as I did before, perhaps there is a connection perhaps not.

Now onto a lighter side, it got down below 0 last night and when I went out earlier it was still -1. My truck let me know it too, started hard and then drove like a tractor without power steering.

Trubble,

I think that you and LOCO are forever young and kittenish as it seems that your both getting into the doghouse (pun intended) lately. And "arf arf" to you too FakeDaddyDan. We should run into each other then. But, I love you even though you don't care about me (I'm trying to butter him up.)

Hugs

Dan

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Dear Trubble, Nope, it's me, FakeMommy...

Lynn here, try hair around the base of the bird feeder. Or red or cayenne pepper. Suppose to keep furry critters away. ^_^ Or, "Let them eat trout." hehehe People hair from the beauty shop or dog hair from the groomers is suppose to work. Heck why not. How about cat hair from Trubble?

I'll be back. I'm just catching up on the posts and reading the blue pencils.

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Hi CatBox and hello Trubble,

Lynn here I got it! At least I know what the problem is. I don't know the cure yet (yes I do, don't I Dr. Irene?)

Dan asked me 2 nights ago if I wanted to talk and I replied, "I've wanted to talk for 5 or 6 years."

I know what I want. I've had previous experience with Dan of "using" what I've told him and then later on down the road feeling like it was used against me. That's a no no.

I don't want to talk. I don't want to be heard. Well, yes I do, but what I say I want it left there and kept locked in somewhere and not used as ammunition at a later date. Cool. You have to make sure you do likewise. Zingers, however witty, count.

I think I thought things were getting better and I couldn't even put my finger on it. There it is. And it happened last week, too. I didn't recognize it.

Okay, now that I do, I think I know what to do. This I can disengage. I am mad again. Only at my stupidity. Dan can bring something up not pertinent to the conversation and change the subject. Bingo. Slippery, huh?

Been there, done that and now I feel better. I need to be his on the head with a stuffed trout, Trubble.

Back to you later,

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

Lynn here again and life is so simple, it's we the "thinking" humans that make it so complicated.

I was so sick all day. I couldn't sleep again last night and my stomach was in turmoil.

Then I read the posts and posted and within minutes I was feeling better.

Herein lies the secret. Amazing as it sounds, Dan can outtalk me. He did it last week when I was down over my dad (hence the Gargoyle reference) and again the other night. I can get taken in by this ALL the time. In the bar business I only once got taken by a short change artist. I don't know how they do it, but I know the lingo and just put a stop to it. I need to do that in my life, too. When the lingo changes, I take everything at face value and believe everything I'm told.

I have to relate a simple story here. Late H and I had a raging battle going on about toilet paper. Me, over the roll, he under the roll. This got so crazy we had to set rules. Whomever used it last got to put the new roll on and it had to stay that way. Well, we got nuttier. If the roll got looking low we would the last 20 feet just so we could put it on "our way." Amazing...

Solution. We bought a holder that held 2 rolls. His went under and mine went over and who cared in the first place??? We sure did and it got so far out of proportion that we couldn't think straight.

Of course it wasn't about TP.

B, I loved your reference (and Steve's) about dancing around the house topless. Ask Dan. I'll bet he'll swear I'd do it home alone in the closet! I take modest to extremes.

I don't remember who posted about the gifts, but we went those rounds, too. Dan NEVER said thank you first. It wasn't that he didn't like the gift. I don't think he ever learned how to say thanks. I think I countered once with something like, "Fine then, go get your own gift." We worked on that one. He also used to have his mother go buy me a gift. I hated it. I would rather have had something from him than something she wanted me to have. We worked on that, too, and now he does his own buying and does it great. He also thanks me for whatever. He'd better!

Well guys, I may go talk now. I have a lot to say.

Loads of love to you all and loads of prayers. Dan just lit a candle tonight for the lost children. Tall one in a glass tube. The cats are still after it. I never saw cats so attracted to flame.

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000

S1

Hi all

First I'll respond to Dr. I's blue posts, then I'll have a closer look at the other posts.

Re: the tone of my posts, Dr I said <<It comes across as a zinger, no different from the ones he's put forth that have hurt you. Specifically, it seems like you want to let people know that it's not your fault. I did all this good stuff, and this is what he did back. He's the guilty one, not me. That's the implication.>>

I think this is, in part at least, accurate - the "I did all this good stuff etc." is true that's how I felt. I felt like if Steve wasn't so angry (whether at me or at anything else) then a lot of things wouldn't have escalated because I did really want to find solutions. Correct. I don't know if it's so much that I'm wanting to let people know it's not my fault, as just laying it out on the table as I see it (through whatever filters I may be wearing - healthy or unhealthy). You are and it's OK. It just comes across as a zinger in that people will tend to sympathize with you and vilify him. This is not "wrong" per se, but it helps create the dynamic between you two that you don't want. Maybe there was a time when having a perfect appearance mattered more to me, but I really don't want anyone to side with me over Steve - I think that would defeat the purpose of my growth. I guess I wouldn't want anyone to "hate my guts" either though. :) I've been quick to doubt my own (sometimes healthy) motives frequently during my relationship, and I'm trying to doubt myself less. Good! Maybe I *am* looking for understanding though, and to see from others that there is light at the end of the tunnel (I already know there is, actually). I don't like being misunderstood, though that's a part of life I think I just have to get used to. Yes. And be OK with it if Steve gets upset instead of getting upset that Steve is upset.

<<When Steve, for example, rejected one of your "treats" out of his own stuff, you took the rejection to heart and got solace where you could.>>

Yes. It's hard to know what things he said he really meant and what things were said out of anger. You can't know. That's why it's each person's job to watch their speech and gesture. I still get confused about interpreting some of it. I guess part of this is first knowing what you *yourself* mean. I'm still not exactly sure when to believe or not to believe someone, but the difference now is, when something feels funny to me, I try to step back and identify it. Excellent. You will then come from a centered position. These things build up rather quickly so I have to really stop and examine them when they happen. Right.

<<But do you see the polarization that is occurring simply because each of you is bouncing off the partner? This is why its so important to find your Center and simply let other be. >>

I think I'm getting the jist of what you mean, and the trick is now to put it into practice until it becomes "normal". For now, I'm trying to at least sense when I'm responding negatively to Steve. Excellent. And he needs to do same. Again, each of you do all this "behaving" to remain true to your own selves... Other just gets to benefit from it.

Some yukky stuff happened to day which relates to this, so I'm going to write it down. I followed my usual unhealthy pattern of bouncing off Steve (I think) and I want to pinpoint what went wrong.

We were hiking with Steve's kids who had been bickering a lot. They put each other down a lot and are quite competitive - their adult role models (and I'm including myself here) have been no help to teach them healthy communication skills! So the whining, complaining and bickering are "normal". I had asked one of Steve's sons to hold the dog leash until the end of the trail, then the other son would hold it on the way back. Steve wanted feedback from me because the son with the leash was complaining that we had taken lots of detours on the way there and the trail back was much shorter, so the other boy wouldn't have to carry the leash nearly as far. I just said that sometimes life's not fair and there would be other times that the other boy would have to do these things too. (Steve agreed.)

Anyways there was more complaining and (this is what *I'm* perceiving - could be wrong here) Steve seems to feel that talking this out isn't enough and that the kids need specific punishments for the competitive, put down, complaining type behavior. I tried to say that these are patterns that they are used to and we can't expect them to break these patterns overnight by using "punishment" - pointing it out, yes, maybe making some sort of exercise about thinking these things out even, I don't know. I think it's no surprise that the kids do this. How can we expect *them* to understand all this, when we are having the exact same problems? Maybe once we have it all figured out ourselves, they will tend to listen a little better (the not listening is another prevalent behavior which I think is a lot to do with getting really mixed messages from our "role modeling"). Anyway Steve basically said that my idea of talking things out with them doesn't work. That he's tried it long enough to see that. I don't agree, and I don't think we've tried it long enough at all. In fact, I think that there is much more for both Steve and I to both learn in this area. (BTW If you can suggest a good "parenting" book, I'm all ears). I just love Assertive Discipline for Children. Incredible Years : A Troubleshooting Guide for Parents of Children Aged 3 to 8 is also excellent.

Anyway, we decided to turn back on the trail, the boy with the leash handed the leash to the other boy, who then proceeded to unwind it and break the spring (it was a "reel in" type leash - breaking it probably wasn't altogether his fault, though he has a repetitive history of breaking things so we tend to "assume" he did which isn't really fair). At this point Steve seemed fairly upset, and I didn't want to get in the middle of it, so I left them to work out a solution. Then Steve came back to me and handed me the broken leash. This made no sense to me and I told him I had asked the other boy to carry it back. (Steve knew that because the first boy had complained about this). It made no sense to me that he broke the leash then was semi-rewarded for this by not having to carry it back. Correct. So Steve turned away from me in an angry way and went ahead on the path. There was no talking about it at this point. I still don't get the logic of what went on. Anyways, we had a fairly silent trip back for awhile, and I figured we'd talk about it later, but I felt rather miffed because I just felt there could have been a more peaceful solution and we were role modeling more bad behavior. I agree. Don't expect Steve to catch his anger right away. It will take him time in most cases. The more he practices, the less time it will take. He just auto piloted...

When we got home, it seemed to me that Steve was being really sensitive about the kids teasing him. The teasing seems pretty normal to me (though perhaps not ideal), but I see it as them looking for affection from their dad. For example they cover their ears when he plays guitar for dramatic effect, call him silly names etc. I'm no expert on how to deal with this stuff, but it seemed to me that Steve got more offended by it than necessary. Probably. But again, he's new at all this and I don't expect him to be able to react calmly most of the time. Especially when one incident follows another.

I mentioned it to Steve and he told me "not to tell him what he was feeling." He was right. It was just my "read" on the situation. I really don't know how he was feeling. (My bouncing off him again, I'm sure.) I just felt uncomfortable with some of his reactions to their behavior - they appeared to me to make the behavior "bigger" than it was. I agree. Anyway, I did feel uncomfortable about the role modeling aspect of it. You don't have to like it and you don't have to participate in it. But, you do have to respect that they are his kids.

Then the topic of discipline came up again. Steve said that I use the same methods as his ex - just to "talk it all out". I have no idea what methods his ex uses, and it's doesn't really matter to me, but I honestly don't feel that Steve really knows my "methods" cuz I've never had a chance to practice them to any extent. He said that he *has* allowed me to use them, and has watched them and he feels they don't work. Anyway, I feel we both lack knowledge in this area. Asha, your methods seem reasonable to me. I think Steve was just having a yukky day... I have a feeling he was in part bouncing off your disapproval of his ways. Steve: please feel free to correct me; I don't want to put words in your mouth.

The kids (IMO) sensed that something was in the air and started to act up more. Kids are very talented at that! I got them to do the dishes, and one threw the dish stopper down because he couldn't get it working. I told him there was no point getting mad and he said in a low, growly voice "I'm *not* *mad*." I feel like both boys are angry, *very* angry and I'm really concerned about where that could lead. Not much you can do about it Asha, other than alienate Steve.

When Steve came back, I let him deal with the bickering good, and went to do other things. I just felt like anything constructive I could contribute wouldn't be well received by Steve, and I couldn't stand there and watch them all in such foul moods without saying anything. Sure.

When Steve left to drop the kids off, he came in to speak with me privately. I had thought I would try to cool down and then ask him some specific questions but I wasn't "cooled down" when he came in to talk. I said (in a too blunt way) that if "punishment" for the kids patterned behavior works, then it should also work if I "punished" Steve every time he went into an old pattern. I really wish I could have cooled down more before saying this, because the point I wanted to make was constructive, but I unfortunately delivered it in an angry way. Yes, humans tend to do that. Anyway, he was, of course, insulted and said that kids and adults are different. And yes they are, I think... kind of, but not really.

Thanks to anyone who has had the patience to read through all this junk and can offer constructive feedback!

One good thing - After Steve left (mad), I didn't guilt myself or get worked up over him having left on a bad note. Excellent.

I'm realizing that these are really *BIG*, *really* important issues for me, and I just can't carry on in the relationship, without finding a constructive way to deal with them. The last thing I need is an angry man and two angry teenagers in my life! (And this isn't meant to say that I believe it *has* to be that way - I think we humans can change and have enormous influence on our children, if we so choose.) Steve is changing Asha. But, he won't transform overnight. Let him make his errors, and give him feedback only if he requests it or he's obviously open to it.. You won't be accomplishing much otherwise.

And to also add some balance to the post, in case it does seem like I'm trying to "one up" Steve, I want to say that we had a really nice time with the kids earlier in the weekend. That I could see at times, Steve was consciously overriding some old typical impulses (maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed this way). Also, he showed affection to me in front of the kids, which he never used to do, and that was nice. Yes! Though I wasn't in the room, he also put on a hilarious puppet show for the kids (who totally get enthralled by this), and did some great guitar playing and singing. When Steve and I behave well ourselves, I see such positive impact in the kids' behavior. Yes! Kids are like barometers...

I'll try to look at the posts and respond to some of them tomorrow, cuz it's getting really late.

love and hugs

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000

S1

I think I am really just trying to work some stuff through.

Dr Irene, for the first time EVER I felt really mad at you yesterday. I was going to post but decided it was better to work out why I felt so mad. Yes. Get a cool head and then reply.

The good bit being I could now, my rationality has returned, stop and think 'what is going on here? It might not be about Dr Irene." The initial reaction was because you said: "don't criticize so." Instead of ignoring it , I apologize for something I am not even sorry about. Really, I think my thoughts are valid. So I got mad at myself for being dishonest with myself!

Then, it never was about that remark I was mad at you. I found the source later. "He is not as bad as you say he is." He is actually worse. What it was, and still is about, is that it is very difficult when you are not believed. That has been part of my difficulty all along. My husband is abusive and he is sometimes violent. He just doesn't present that way to others. Even my closest friend has problems believing he could ever be violent. This is also why I changed doctors. This is the reason I became depressed. Violence is never ever OK. And you should not have violence in your life. But the reality is that even a creepy person is not always creepy, so it is not a matter of being believed or not. Besides, who cares what anybody thinks! I find it almost impossible to make global judgments (unless I'm real mad, giggle...).And, if the chemistry between the two of you is such that he is creepy too much of the time, get yourself away from him!

Rationally, although I emailed you so you do know the "story" there is no reason why you shouldn't have your own opinion. So I am even mad at you for validating and then not validating me? (Yes definitely not logical.) I know it can be trying when I support parts of what you do and not others. But, that just goes hand in hand with how I am trained to observe and respond to clinical material. I really take few if any "sides" other than what seems to me to be the side of the other person's healthy Self. Most of the time, I'm pretty good at this.

The root of it is, nothing, of course, to do with you. It is about wanting someone else; e.g., husband to validate my feelings and say he is sorry. About feeling nothing will move forward until I have this from him. It is about wanting him to take responsibility for what he has done. I think really, I want revenge. I would like him to feel as I have. I would LIKE him to experience what I feel and have felt. I understand, promise. Yet, it's my "job" to tell you that if that's what you require, you're probably setting it up so that there will never be a meeting of the minds.

I am sure he might want the same for things I have done to him. But I can't deny my own feelings. Good. Don't deny. Just control the behavior and assess if it's working in your favor. Are you helping yourself get what you want, or are you shooting yourself in the foot?

Now I think the Paxil has worn off and I did have the symptoms I wrote about, I do not think it is a good drug for many people. (my gripe is more about lack of information than it is about the existence of the drug). I still can't just say the reasons I ended up on it are invalid! These drugs are an educated guess for the prescribing physician. But, it's a shotgun approach. Keep trying till something works.

Looking inside, my problem is on the outside. So is his. We are both so angry at each other. He does do good things. At the height of all our troubles he kept saying he was doing what he could. But what he did felt abusive because of things he had previously done.

So what I'm really mad at you is at making me face how unwilling I am to forgive him. Which needs to happen if we stay together or not. Cool! I appreciate that kind of anger.

(Light aside form the best son in the world. He is off sick today and has just walked in to say he wants to be looked after "because he is worth it!" I wish I has his self esteem!)

So in the end what, and who I am really mad at is me, as I can't forgive and I know that that is what eats people up and destroys them. STOP! You can forgive. You just don't want to. At least right now. So, let it be; don't fight it. Just be aware. I don't want to think of myself as someone unable to forgive. As bitter about what has happened. (The righteous anger I can keep.) I dislike my own bitterness. To balance this, I am a lovely person as well! I know.

But what I can see is that I have forgotten how my anger affects others. The temptation was to write a post starting "Irene" just because I was mad at you. (Steve note this.) Not a big deal. All my clients call me "Irene." I do the Dr. Irene thing on the site for credibility. I used to get annoyed when people would "Irene" me early on. Then, I decided it wasn't worth it. Now, I sign off emails "Dr. Irene" and think I'd rather just be signing my name. To deliberately disrespect and invade what I am perfectly aware of is a means of creating an appropriate professional distance. To hope I could upset you for upsetting me.....Possibly, I have just felt so hurt that I haven't cared how others are affected. Definitely, so hurt that anything that I could do or say to hurt seems justified. Blow the effects on them. (I don't for a minute think I would have affected you in any way, I am just trying to work through the feelings). I know that. And that's where I say "STOP" and ask you to examine whether or not you are shooting yourself in the foot. Why I ask people to chill before they do anything...

Of course I spend all that time outside myself. If I don't I will have to do what I don't want to....

I guess I will find al the answers through the Christian faith I have. I know them anyway in the head sense so I don't need the sermons (or maybe I do). Right now, if it worked, I would believe in the God of green cheese. I have no "Theology' left. God is inside you and talks to you all the time...

Strangely I remembered some things today. Like my husband comes from an extraordinarily eccentric family. (So, I have to say they are the ones who let him be eccentric.) Like the study door thing originally came about when he worked at home and then it was about locking up valuable equipment. Like this is the man who changed jobs to spend more time with his family....Like this is the man who once did nothing round the house...he may be abusive but he does try. Yes. The whole point is nobody is all good or all bad all the time. We tend to be baddest when we don't control our behavior and do not act in accord with taking care of the Self. Victim types typically think they are all good. My job is to show them otherwise. Angry types tend to pretend they are all good but secretly feel they are all bad. You're not alone in getting angry with me for what I point out. This stuff is often hard to hear, which is why I have a job.. The good news is I'm safe to get mad at since I generally don't retaliate, and if I do, I own it pretty quickly. Thanks for writing all this. Watching people grow makes me feel good.

OK, time to sleep. Be back...

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000

S1

Hi ALL,

OH Steve, you don't how much it means to get a post from you about this. IT shows how much you have grown, and helps me see we can all get better. WELL DONE STEVE!!!!

Steve I am glad it was you who replied, because you previously posted about it not all being one sided. WELL your absolutely right. I learnt to be angry with my X who was the negatively empowered one. Though I was the negatively disempowered one. SO I TOO had lots and lots of anger also. I ENGAGED as you rightly pointed out to me and still do.

Though what bothers me is THE DISPLACING of my anger on to others who are nothing to do with all of the chaos. YESTERDAY for instance my sister just asked me HOW come I'd been so long. I SAID "Look I had things to do, why is it everyone needs to know where I am and clock watches for me." SHE SAID YIKES your in a bad mood, you need to sort yourself out, otherwise you'll have no friends left. SHE IS RIGHT!!!

I am even more frustrated because it seems I can't relax for one minute. My daughter sees to this, it seems where ever we go, she is naughty and hitting kids. I end up yelling at her in frustration. I am so hypersensitive at present (GUESS YOU GATHERED THIS ALREADY!!) I am sick of being told "YOU must do something about that child", from friends and family. WHAT ON EARTH CAN I DO!! Its obvious my yelling isn't helping. I've read and read books. THE trouble is if I let up she gets worse and I can't allow her to hit 2 year olds can I? If I am not stood over her saying NO don't do that, she is up to no good.

She has bit my niece who she never got on with very well in the first place (GIRLS eh!!!) but recently she has been even more tense. My niece is only one year younger than MISSY so they clash somewhat.

Its just so difficult!! that is an understatement its impossible!!!

Christmas day we are gonna have the two girls in one house, YIKES how are we gonna cope?

STEVE, YES I do know I am angry and have a problem with it!!! (HARD TO ADMIT but I know I had to if I am gonna get this under control.) You say the money vs. self worth is perfect opportunity, HOW???

GOSH Yes this is a big button for me. How do I sort it out????

I have spent 7 whole years being told that everything I do is NOT contributing. I tried so hard, I just get so angry with having to compete. I WANTED my X to acknowledge whilst we lived together that we were a team and what I did was valuable. BUT NOPE he still to this day thinks he gave more. Maybe materially he did, but I gave emotionally, I also loved after our child. I walked on egg shells so he'd not have more stress on top of work.

MAYBE that is it, maybe I am mad at myself for walking on egg shells and then expecting thanks for this!! FOR years I kept MISSY quiet and tip toed around so he could sleep. HE would still outsiders that I always wake him up with my noise. Normal noise like putting bowls on the sideboard to make MISSY breakfast. Even that I walked heavy. BOY maybe he'd be better in a bed sit I would think a place all on his own!!! I mean what man who yells and curse deserves a family, INDEED what man. (Well I to yell and curse now!!! so maybe I have no room to talk!!) NOW he has the peace and quiet and is all alone so maybe he got what he asked for. AFTER all GOD does give us what we ask for.

I read that the recognition is in seeing how it helped someone else one of your skills and feeling real pride. BUT where does that go in this case???

I mean he wasn't pleased when I was trying to be quiet, he even blamed me for not being. SO how can I be okay about all this???

Thanks a million, GOD I wish you would send the answers cuz I am so fed up and worn out!!!

Thanks Steve.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 11, 2000

S1

Dear Dr. Irene,

Lynn here. Hello All. Have a migraine today, one of the in the toilet ones, but things are going better and I need to post. This was about Steve and I was weeping over the post. I did it to Dan again. 2 days later he decided I was upset and then he offered to talk. I said I'd wanted to talk for 5 or 6 years. Yeah! Dropping those old bad habits is tough!

Gave me a chance and I threw it back in his face. Well after we both posted (We communicate sooo well on the boards), I asked him just to listen. I may have been wording these wrong. It was about the warning to Steve to use the knowledge but NEVER use it against Asha. Bingo. Dan and I can get into discussions, fights and whatever and then zoom, out of somewhere comes something else (usually something I've shared with him). Last night I tried to use a pretty generic example and used the time in an argument when he called me a lousy mother, rotten daughter and a slut. Not meaning to bring that up again (I never told him any different) but because it was so impertinent to the argument. He right away said, "Correct me if I'm wrong. Were we both not fighting below the belt that night?" Sheesh Dan says, that's not the point. The point is that I don't like this stuff being used against me at a later date. Right.

Conversation got better and thoughtful after that. Same about the driving. I asked him to slow down. He was being nasty. He hasn't done that in a long time.

Jist of this, I think is we do so well posting. The talk to talk still is like a competition. I really think I/we had a better relationship when I'd reply to him to stick it in his ear or go do unnatural (or natural) acts in the closet I quit that because that is not the way I want to talk to a loved one. It seems if I get the least off guard though I get zoomed in on.

My next one is "DON'T call me HONEY! When we don't talk, solve, resolve, whatever... Dan gets up the next day and starts calling me Honey. I ain't his honey. It ain't over, it ain't resolved, etc. Then I get zingy. Giggle!

Okay. Not as bad as it sounds. Actually got a lot accomplished between us last night. Mostly for Steve and I. Get it ou