Comments for Catbox 14

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Back to Catbox 13

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 03, 2000

S1

I have a feeling the posts are going through really slowly.

Dear Jean, if only the church would stop teaching about marriage and start teaching about communication and codependency! Maybe as a minister's wife you can do something there! I think a lot of marriages would be a lot stronger. I haven't posted much on the message board lately. Mainly I feel the catbox is more objective. I made a pact with myself a long time ago that I frequently break not to be a sympathy seeker. In the catbox you get me as I find myself!

I love the fact that we can say what we think without couching it in "niceness."

Lynn I especially like your posts as they are so down to earth. Makes me feel I can say anything!

I must admit, Theressa, it takes me half a day to read your posts as I usually get cross and then think you are right!

Steve, I do write a lot of poetry and stories. I used when young to be a kind of self styled poet. There is a poets group where I live so I am going to go to it the next time it happens. I have a couple of friends who write and so I will ask if we can go together. I really miss my daughter's poems and songs.

Astrid, I think the strongest men I know are also the gentlest. It took me a long time to want to see strength in the form of strong emotion though. I think it was wrong of your brother to hit anyone, but I would love to see some anger from my husband when someone hurts me. At them and not at me.

What is a 'chosen' brother.

I am totally lost on what to do about my family. Email from my dad that seems to suggest everyone forgets all the hurts. Can't he just say sorry for how he was. Emails from my sister. One demanding I make things up with my mum or she will cancel her trip. One saying she won't be able to visit as she won't have a hire car and demanding I ring. I know this sounds awful but I just want to go into a shell and protect myself. I feel literally bombarded by my family's judgmentalism and brashness. I can't bear the way they are about my daughter. They just seem to want to tell me how bad it is.

Long for the days when my husband was protective about me in front of the family. I just feel like everything would end up in a verbal bloodbath at present and I don't have the emotional energy to cope with that at all. Part of it is I feel so hypersensitive.

No word from husband and son. I am enjoying peace.

Becky. Thanks for all your help. Are you o.k yourself. I felt like you really understood what happens.

Sadheart keep strong and positively affirming.

It isn't I am not trying to face the negative bits of me. I rather need to find and trust in the good parts again. Having been so afraid to feel pain it now feels as if I am feeling all the pain I should have felt and have somehow to learn to handle it and myself with it.

Give me the dreaming lies

And find the man in my dreaming.

Let me dream my reality

For I dream of you and cannot leave

For fear you will change into the dream

For fear you might become the dream

For fear I will lose the dream

For fear I will lose the light

Of a distant memory of you.

Dear Suzy, I really feel for you. I understand about not wanting to leave without the children. Also about the way somehow we say one thing but desperately hope for another. I wish I had the answers. I suppose for me I forget he may feel rejected too. I think it is probably that if we say that we are going they know how to hit back.

I guess all the answers are somewhere on this site.

Meanwhile, on a lighter note it is getting dark so I am lighting candles and thinking of and saying a prayer for you all. Tomorrow may be brighter, you never know!

Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, December 03, 2000

S1

Asha here. Hello all.

Lynn, you sound like you're doing really well these days. You said: <<I think I just like my men to be a little stronger than me.>>

Stronger in what way? Physically?

As Astrid said, physical strength never has been a big deal to me. Strength to me comes with a certain sense of self-harmony. Intellect is important to me too, but not in the sense of IQ; in the sense of being able to ponder, question and look deeper into ourselves and those around us.

Astrid said: <<<I think there is a problem with our culture associating strength with violence.>>>

I agree. It probably starts at elementary school, when children learn to protect themselves against their 'weaknesses' - the ones that other children point out and ridicule (often not even real). I am thankful that I was one of the 'outcast' less popular children. I was very lucky to have a mom that told me that children did this because of their own insecurities. Because I was 'different' anyway, I didn't try to fit into their social norms, and tried to find my identity away from the crowd. (Though I still looked for peer role models - in movies, TV shows etc).

I think we are subconsciously drawn to the mate that will teach us whatever we need to learn. So if we need to learn about our own strength and independence (because we aren't strong and independent) maybe we are initially drawn to a situation where the other partner is more dominant. Because that doesn't make up for our lack of strength, we eventually have to face that no-one else's strength can replace ours. And then we create the sorts of situations we are in; which do challenge us to build our own strength. (Makes sense to me though it sounds a bit convoluted)

And Astrid, I agree - the "cult-like" thing was not intentional. It is a thing that happens over time as two people pass their dysfunctional habits back and forth and try to adapt to each other.

Astrid said: <<<So I stopped fencing, I stopped eating out anywhere but diners, I stopped going to plays, I neglected my online collaborative story, etc. I listened to the music he wanted to listen to, and was outright apologetic about introducing music of my own. >>>

I did a bit of this too, without Steve asking me to. Actually I remember saying to a friend, when I first met him, that I might be too artsy-fartsy for him. I like weird hats and funky clothes. I see myself as pretty liberal-minded. I felt he would have a problem with this and 'dressed down' a little, and tried to make our views "fit" in my own mind. This was my doing alone; nothing to do with Steve.

I have been thinking about why I have let others' feelings override my own. I think back to when I had roommates (I lived with several different roommates at various times), and my "strength" in those days was my ability to get along with just about anybody. In doing this, I often put aside my own desires for the "betterment" of the group. Life was just easier that way. There was always someone who was really particular about a certain thing, and I tended to allow them that pickiness and adapt to it. I don't think I sacrificed my principles, but I did "go along" with a lot. Still, I don't remember it as being negative (though I did have pretty good roommates most of the time). Even now, I still don't want to get so entrenched in my thinking so that I'm not open to newer and better ways of thinking, acting, doing. But I'm trying to be aware of warning signals that show me I've gone too far. Again, I think it has something to do with boundaries; knowing what they are and when I'm up against one. I don't want to be opinionated. I want to be open. But I need to know when the "open-ness" endangers my psyche. I'm kind of rambling but I hope you get my drift. Yes. You want to use your get along talent selectively, when it makes sense to you, rather than apply it indiscriminately across the board.

Becky - thank you for your insight. I think you have a pretty good "read" of my feelings. The "cognitive dissonance" is a good description I think. It's like if someone was telling you something was white but you knew it was black, yet it would be so much easier if it *was* white, and you *wish* you could see it as white. So your mind confuses the different feelings. Becky: How are you?

Must run now. Take care everyone.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 04, 2000

S1

Wondering where everyone is and if they are not managing to get through either o like me didn't scroll down far enough? love Jay That happens when I mess up...

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 04, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa,

<<I think we sometimes slip back because we are meant to, we still have some wounds to heal in that area, so if the buttons continue to be pressed we still have some healing in that area. >>

I think you are right. At least this being mad at myself made me do something I really needed to do: I made my own decision about booking a flight. I just booked. I will be leaving on the 24th and returning the 5th of the new year. I felt so much better after doing this. I really do not need him to get it right for me. I go, cause I want to go, and I told him we might do something together and he declined. OK, so I go.

Funny thing is, I think he is a bit worried about me making my own decision on this, but that's OK. Both of us need to know we can make our own decisions. In the end we will both feel more safe because of it. He called later, wanted to come over, I I felt so at ease, so strong, and I just said OK. He called in on a mutual friend to deliver some things from me, showing he had been with me, he called other friends, his mother, sister while I was there, telling them that I was there, that I would come over, and could they pick me up from the Airport. (OK, bit controlling, but that's OK with me). All the need for secrets seems to have gone, once I made this decision and stuck with it. He is feeling a bit down that he cannot come, said, I wish my papers were in order, we could have gone by car together. It's OK the way it is, I think, and all of a sudden I feel so much more at ease with me, and therefore with him.

I've been looking for a new cell phone and asked his advice, but I did make my own decision, and I like the feeling. So I guess you are right: the slipping back was needed to get me angry enough to take my own responsibility again and it feels great. So, I am not going to throw the towel in yet ! :-) Thanks.

Dear Asha,

Thanks to you too for your comments. I guess I still have a lot of problems with handling the ugly parts of boundary setting. Conflicts just scare the hell out of me. I mean, all I really want to do then is run and hide or do whatever necessary to stop the conflict. I always thought complying was the only way. I am learning to find other ways, like calming myself down and trying to talk. Not always right away, but later, when we have both calmed don and it seems to work. I I really want to learn this, so I am really trying to get myself to be honest, to know what I want and to say what I mean, without to much anger. Maybe I just secretly hoped it would be easier and quicker.... :-).

As for Steve and you, I can see both of you trying to be very careful in what you say to/about each other. You both seem to want to say the right things, but I still feel there is a lot of anger there. If I am right about that, don't repress it. Just don't take it out on each other, but feel it anyway. I really still get so mad at times, but thinking about it, feeling it, helps me to address the underlying problems. Don't get too nice.

Dear Steve,

See the above. I feel a lot of anger in your posts when you address Asha still. As for the bad boys thing, I think you are right. At least for me it goes. I always wanted men a bit wild. I think it has something to do with the *old brain* * new brain* concept David talks about in the Buddha section. We sometimes tend to see the bad boys behaviour as being strong and we want strong men to take care of us. Or something like that. I also know that I always wanted C. to be more adventurous, to make my life interesting I think. Maybe what we think we want is men who are very strong and adventurous, but will stick with us, because we are the only ones they really love. Very romantic and very wrong I guess. But I think that's how it works when you are young.

Dear Astrid, glad to see you back again. How are things going with L.? Still trying to win you back? Don't feel guilty for not sticking by him. You have your own life to live and you know it. Don't go waiting for/on him endlessly. If he changes, he changes, and then you can decide. But it might take years, and he might not change enough or you might not want him anyhow. That is OK. Take care.

Dear Becky, I know these mammography's hurt sometimes, don't they. With all the tension associated it makes it even worse!! Hope to hear good news soon. For the rest, hang in there. If you feel you need to go someplace alone, go. If you are tired you cant do any work on you anyway. You need to relax, reload. Having all this anger and fear around really drains your energy. You might try to find some Reiki fractioned to help you with that, and try to shield off the negative energy by not letting things get at you as much as you can. Take time for you, go for walks outside, do nice things for yourself, love yourself. We're all with you. Lots of hugs and energy coming your way.

Dear Jay,

I am happy to hear the house feels better. You need your house to feel like home, especially when you are no feeling well. For the rest: so you made mistakes, so you get angry: who doesn't. Try to do better next time. And by taking care of you, you maximize the changes that you will handle the situation better next time. Do things to build your inner strength. I think writing and going to classes is a great idea. You have to work on thing that you are good at. If you are constantly working on the thinks you do not do very well, you can easily end up feeling you are no good. You forget the things you are good at!!! Lots of hugs to you too, take care.

Love to all the rest of you. And Trubble, I think it is time to come out from under the bed and start to work on your problems with you Mummies and Daddies. They all love you, and your anger and hurt is for you to sort out. Staying under the bed, definitely won't get you Salmon and Trout either.... OK OK, I get the picture. But, I insist you guys respect my right to sulk. So there. And thanks for validating my plural mommies and daddies. You got lots too? You got favorites? Any Fake ones?

Love , AJ

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 04, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

Lynn here and is this a test or what? Steve of the Teddy Bear, Dan, Amy, Jean, Jay of the Circus, Becky, Anne, Suzy, B, Theressa, Sadheart, Asha, Astrid, AJ, Dr. I and Trubble. David, too, if you ever pop in. If I missed anyone, Sorry. Not intentional.

First to Steve. Love the bear. Great!! Bear Hugs now, huh?

Asha, Cut, copy and Paste on webtv is "cmd" A, C and V, not control. Sheesh. It's a breeze to play with. Scared to try and put any here just yet.

Loved the bit about beating others chests, too. hehehe Really, I think I like for a man to be strong enough to take care of me when I'm down. Not come in for the attack just because I'm not up to snuff. I can be strong 99% of the time if Have to, That one percent of the time I like to be "taken care of." OK so the percentages change from time to time, but I need a man who is secure enough to be strong for me (with me) when I am unable to be. Best way I can think of putting it.

Had a cat poop week and then worked myself into the granddaddy of migraine's. Light flashing and toilet hugging. Self inflicted I might add. Ouchhh! It must be all my fault. I'm sorry for calling you FakeMommy...

Vent, witch and boo hoo, meow meow. Now I can get it off "my chest." I had a wretched week after my dad and Dan's driving. I waited till Friday when he didn't have to work the next day and said, "Dan I have to talk to you. I'm probably being PMSey witchy and cranky, but I just have to talk it out." He said, "Okay."

And that was the last thing he said. Long story, but the gist of it was/is I finally asked tonight if he were ever going to talk to me about this? Here's where I hate it when therapy is used against me. At least the lingo. He told me he didn't say anything because he didn't want to deny me my feelings and since he didn't agree with all I said he felt it would be denying me my feelings by saying anything. I mean nothing after OK. UGH! Two things: When Dan doesn't want to talk, it's OK to make an appointment to talk at a later time. Also, you guys need to agree to disagree. I guess it's hard to tell the difference when he's being passive aggressive and when he really has reasons for not talking. Lynn, do yourself a favor and stop putting so much import on getting him to yak. 

I felt ignored, what I said was of no importance and then just got down to the basics. I did it to myself again. Had the last word if that makes anyone feel better. He tried to kiss me goodnight and I said that would be denying me my feelings, too, as I don't feel I want to kiss anyone I can't talk to. Ooopps! You are mad! 

Same ole, same ole. That's Spanish I guess. Disengaged, disenchanted, disturbed, distraught and dis ain't fun for me anymore. So knock it off. You ain't gonna get what ain't being offered. You can either accept it and make your life easier, or get yourself all worked up on how awful that is. You're also more likely to get if you let him not give. Make sense?  

Down? No, it's 6:12 AM right now and I haven't been to bed yet. Not the least bit tired. I just don't feel like sharing a room with him, let alone a bed. Then I can sleep all day and not have to play anymore games.

So there is my strong man theory and yes, I would have liked him to say, "I don't agree with you, but I'll hear you out." or some such. But nothing has to be worse than being hit. I feel like I am so insignificant that I'm not worthy of a comment. 

hehehe, re past post way long ago. Moral dilemma. I saved my integrity, but I missed my chance. At least in my heart I know I did the right thing, but it was sure great having a live body to talk to. You guys are all great, too, but when I need a hug I need a hug. Hug, hug

Okay, enough boo who. Not me anymore Another hehehe. Brings to mind Nancy Sinatra and "These boots are made for Walking. Best go put on my Calamity Jane boots and GOWML. Which doesn't mean another man. It means do my genealogy, make some ornaments, trim the tree and the house and hug the cats and dogs. Dan's brother has a term I love. When the good guy gets the bad guy in the movies he says, "Take that, you fool!"

I think I may have to use that as my motto. I'd rather hear you say something like, "So be it." And let it go. I know you want to be heard, but stop fighting him. You will not win and he'll just dig his heels in more. Pick your battles.

Love to you all and I even feel like signing Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 04, 2000

S1

The verbal abuse I suffer is intermittent but damaging all the same. Most of the time he is as nice as nine pence but if he is not getting his own way, he twists things I say, tries his amateur psychoanalysis on me which confuses and upsets me (something about my relationship with my parents for example). The worst times were Saturdays when he just wanted left alone. But I needed to take care of business and that meant I needed him to drive. It might have been an hour or two out of the day but boy did he make me pay. Sometimes I wanted to jump out of the moving vehicle! Now I'm feeling a lot better, I've come out of a very dark place and he's not happy. He threatened to leave if I bought my own car (we both earn - I earn much more). This would mean he couldn't afford to make the payments on the car. I said he could sell it and get a cheaper model but he said he has waited for a decent car and now he has one he's not going to give it up. I have back problems and need the car to have a life - he always refused to take me anywhere - even if he was going to the same area - he would pass me at the bus stop!

The things is, the council house is in both our names. I've done all the work to it. He has his own flat in a nearby village - still near his office. I want to keep the house Vie put all the effort into in fact he would never have been allowed a house of this size without me and my daughter.

I need practical advice on making it look like his idea for him to go back where he came from. Any ideas?

 B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 04, 2000

S1

Hello all, Suzy here... I haven't had a lot of time to read the posts...but I have a question and need advice? ....If my husband is willing to go to personal counseling for anger management and join a support group for men who emotionally abuse,,,is it worth it to continue trying to work on the relationship??? Any and all advice and comments welcome. I believe he is sincere, however, a tiny part of me wonders if this is a last stitch ploy to keep me and not end the marriage. What do you think? Have a GREAT day, Love, Suzy

PS...Jay is right, there is a internet monster eatting all the posts, I sent one this morning and it's no where to be found...SCARY!!!!!hehe

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 04, 2000

S1

Suzy, Sadheart here...

My husband did all these things when we separated the last time. Of course he was kicked out of the men's group because he showed up drunk 2 times and then organized a "boy's night out" after a meeting and got everyone drunk! <OMG! LOL>

He was nice to me for about 3 months after we reconciled, in May 99. By Xmas 99 all I wanted for Xmas was marriage counseling. (He got me a very expensive carousel instead, which I promptly burst into tears after opening.)

I guess my point is, trust actions, not words. If he can continue to use the things he learns for a long period of time, then by all means work at it!

------

Have a rough weekend coming up. Husband's Xmas party is Saturday. I am not going. I have to be at work at 4:30am Sunday. The thing is I think he will get drunk Sat. If so, I am going to take my son with me to work. I WILL NOT leave him there with a drunk dad. When my son was 3 and younger, I used to come home from work at 10:00pm and find all the lights in the house off and my 3 yr old wandering around the house. Dad would be passed out. NO MORE!

I am prepared to call the police if he will not let me leave with my son. I am planning to have his sleeping bag in the car, and I will be sleeping with the phone. Who knows, he may not come home at all. He stopped drinking in order to reconcile with me, but has not gone to AA...so he is a dry-drunk. <sigh>

If it comes down to this, I guess I will have to stand strong (something I am not always good at) and tell him he needs to leave NOW, not after XMAS. This is one boundary I am not willing to waffle on. Drinking did too much damage to our family. And he scares me even more when he is drunk!

I have been practicing my strength in my mind. Hopefully this weekend will come and go without an explosion...but I am usually very good at predicting.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, December 04, 2000

S1

Good grief! He keeps the custard locked in his study! I am starting to count the number of days my son and he have had banana custard. Well over 2 months I reckon. He makes me yogurt instead as I hate custard. Is this a new form of torture?!!!!!!!!

Have to stop as son needs the computer. Son says I am dopey and husband is grumpy.............

A ctually. venting a bit. I don't see why he had to refuse 'to get involved' when I asked him to read a short play I wrote about a space ship my son said was no good! Or to get involved in friendly competition about writing a story called Bob the Frog! Son wanted him to judge.......

Think Sadheart. putting it in perspective I will smile at my own situation and send thoughts and prayers for yours. At least I don't have a drunken husband. He refuses to have more than a glass.......Looks down on me if I do.

Keep strong Suzy. I think you are doing the right thing.

Will drop back later. Love Jay

 B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

Hi Jay,

It is fine that you get angry at first. I DO MYSELF WHEN my therapist or someone else says something that is sensitive to me. This is what Dr Irene is talking about when we get defensive. We defend ourselves. ONCE we are able to accept that YES xxxxx is a correction interpretation of present self and we have no need to justify or defend where we are at. We can choose to change where we are at, when we feel ready.

First comes awareness and then comes acceptance. Then when we have accepted we can choose our action. We can choose to say OKAY so, so and so isn't healthy or good for me so I can choose to ACT and change things and improve. OR Okay so I do or am in so and so but I don't mind being here.

Its about learning to accept where we are at, at any given moment and knowing we can improve when we feel ready. WE can make one step at time changes. It might start with being able to set boundaries for ourselves, then we might start finding out and examining our deep beliefs and values, and asking are they serving me?

You see I used to value staying in a relationship no matter what because it was good for my daughter OR so I thought. THEN I saw the effects me staying was having on her, this made me challenge my value and I realized it didn't serve me anymore. MY value is now protect my daughter because I am the only one who can, so if something is not working then its not okay - when she is afraid to make mistakes and is learning destructive patterns for her future, then I AM not justified in keeping her in a place where she is not growing into a healthy human being as GOD intended her to become.

JAY though we have to take one step at a time in growing. FIRST we must recognize what isn't working and accept it is not working and then decide what else to do. IT took me a while to accept that my value needed changing and I had to look for evidence in my daughter's life to prove my value wasn't working. I had to accept that the healthy child I wanted would never be unless I ACTED.

So this is why therapy is so important because it helps you build up these blocks, from recognising/accepting towards changing.

Also a good little book called ACTS of FAITH talks about all the paradoxes that DR IRENE speaks about.

Love Theressa

PS THANKS for your honesty, about being initially angry, this is healthy. THIS means you are not just accepting without question things you are told, this is what adults do. (this not meant to sound patronizing) but its true, some co-dependents never question what their abusers tell them

Thanks Theressa.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

And he can't eat mince pies with me and my son if we put up a tree as he er......... "doesn't believe in them." He he. ???So what will he see? Just getting flippant after all the serious stuff. Hope all in the catbox are o.k. love Jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

The trees not the mince pies!

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

Good Morning All, ...Suzy here... Well, so much for the idea of reconciliation. When my husband didn't get exactly what he wanted, or things didn't go the way he had planned in the past few days...boy, or boy, was there hell to pay. (He is living in our basement until the divorce is final.) This morning I was rudely awakened to him kicking the bed I was sleeping in loudly saying..."GET UP, WAKE UP, a good mother gets up and gets her children up and makes breakfast for them.!!" (Oh, I forgot to mention this was 5:10 AM.) He went on and on for 20 min. on how he was going to get a lawyer and crucify me because I was doing the same to him. He PROFESSES to LOVE me, what a way to show it. Last night we had a LOUD incident in which he went ballistic yelling, hollering, slamming doors very violently etc. I couldn't help it, he looked like a 2 year old with a bad tantrum and I burst into a smile and said.. "Do you know how ridiculous you look?" Of course, that probably was not the smartest thing to do. It only made things worse.

For you people out there...does it have to be this way during a divorce.? Does it always have to be mean and ugly.? Really what started it all is my H. found out he might have to pay alimony, we have been together shy of 19 years and 5 kids to pay child support, he will be financially ruined. This is the worst for my H. because money and the CONTROL of it has been VERY important to him , his world is going to fall apart and for the next 9 years this is what is going to happen. This is PURE DEVASTATION for him. He has never been physically violent, should I be afraid of that now?

I cannot live this way any more, I want peace, I want to feel the Lord's spirit in my home, I cannot with all this horrible ANGER. I finally came to peace about the divorce and now am filing. He, has been telling me it is over for 5 years now. Now when I finally accepted it and he says, "I NEVER thought you would go through with it, I cannot believe it!!!" I guess he believes it now. I HATE this, it did not have to be this way, all I wanted was respect and love and to be cherished. I can see now I never had that, I only had the hope and dream of it and over and over, these dreams were shattered.

I guess I'm at the "hate all men stage", I cannot even bear to think there is another nice man out there, because if your own husband treated you this way, why couldn't it happen again? It is like he was a soft wooly lamb who threw off his coat to reveled his true wolf self, with all the sharp teeth showing. I know logically, this is not true and there is a lot of kind men out there. I know I need to take care of my self and heal so I won't repeat the pattern again. I hope it is not too late for my children, ages 9-17. My one and only boy is full of anger too, and has been violent, he hates me and wants to go with dad. Should I let him go and not fight for him? Frankly, I am afraid of him and don't know if I can handle him, he is 15, he is a big boy and I am a tiny 4'10" lady. I fear if I don't fight, my son will think I don't care about him, and maybe he'll have a chance to heal and deal with this anger. Or, should I let him go with dad and see the man that he is, and the mere fact he wouldn't be with his sisters will beg to come back, the children are close. ???

I need some good advice from those who have been there. Should I ask for all my lawyer says I'm entitled to? Should I fight for all my kids? Should I get the alimony? (I know these are dumb questions.) I know if I do these things, I am in the biggest fight of my life and now, I just want it over and him to be gone. Please help...THANK YOU. Have a wonderful nice day. Love, Suzy

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

Dear poster (NO NAME GIVEN)

NOT damaging are you kidding, ABUSE is about CONTROL it doesn't have to mean he is calling you names or hitting you - HE IS CONTROLLING YOU SO ITS ABUSE.

Whenever he tries to twist things say "THAT is your opinion, I am not arguing with you about what I said" (THEN don't argue, he is trying to engage you - AND oh boy do I sometimes also fall for this, we all do)

IF you can drive then WHY do you ask him to drive you around?

I imagine how you feel because 12 months ago when we used to share our car this happened to US, me and my X. I was so stuck and people would say WHY do you let him drive? Well where do I start 1) He moans and goes on and on when I am driving - about my driving, 2) He starts a lecture and then I can't concentrate whilst driving 3) He is a truck driver so knows best how I should drive. 4) SO it ends up easier if he drives (when we are both in the car together) THOUGH this opened me up to ABUSIVE behaviour. Because One of many days I spoke up for myself and he was taking me to work so he could take the car for the day whilst he was on holiday from work, he said "RIGHT, I am not driving until you apologies." [What me apologies? for what I thought, for just not doing a task his way, when my way worked, GET STUFFED) I said "I have no need to apologies". HE SAID "YA have if you want to get to work." Okay I could have got a taxi/cab but where we lived was a long way from my mom's house who minds my child and then to get to work - it would cost me more than I would be paid for the days work. SO WHAT COULD I DO?????

Well I was so angry and so frustrated. I said "THIS is our car, so therefore I have a right to use it to get to work." He said "BIG DEAL, I am not going Fucking no where until you apologies".

What happened I APOLOGIZED, why? because I needed to keep my job and I would be late, he would win anyway.

THERE were many more of these occasions, which why I eventually LEFT because I wasn't gonna apologies for being MYSELF any longer. [VENT OVER]

SO you see I know how you may be feeling - STUCK, am I right?

SOLUTION to this problem: Well unless the other is open to compromising so that you both share the car and he will keep quiet when you drive, there isn't one.

THOUGH I did find one solution and it worked. MY X and I went to my mom's for drinks last Christmas and he wanted to have a drink, BUT I had told him since the last time he yelled at me, I would never ever drive again with him in the car. SO he said "Theressa will you drive honey." I said "ABSOLUTELY NOT".

He had to drive home. THOUGH do you know the next time we went out he made me a solemn promise that when I drove home he'd shut up. and not comment. I drove home and he kept quiet and it was fine. THOUGH since then he has yelled, the last time I told him to get out of my car if he didn't like my driving, (I now have my own car!!!) he hasn't been in my car since.

SO I'd say to your partner, there are two options to this problem. 1) Either you share the car appropriately with me OR 2) I get my own car, regardless of whether you can keep yours or not, which by the way is ours.

THEN YOU MUST STICK TO THIS, because you have nothing to feel guilty about, you gave him the choice. If he won't share its not your problem.

YOU HAVE TO LEARN NOT TO LET GUILT OR FEAR RUN YOUR LIFE. YOU see here in this situation you have the MOST power, you can ask him to share or you can get your own car if he refuses, though you've respectfully given him the CHOICE to make.

THIS way you don't have to pay because you don't buy into his GUILT, You see when he acts all hurt by you saying you'll get your own car he is manipulating you. When you buy manipulation the price is HIGH. SO don't buy the manipulation. TELL him how it is as above and let him choose. THIS WAY YOU DON'T GET INTO A FIGHT.

(BY THE WAY I didn't know this back when I had my car problems. BUT I AM GLAD I have it now, so there are now few manipulations he my X can pull on me NOW)

LISTEN to me when I say I understand about the house. I gave up a luxurious house, car and life FOR PEACE. Peace is more valuable than any of the material things in the WORLD that I can promise you I was afraid to face this but I HAVE NOW.

Now what to do about this?? Go to see your housing officer. Tell them you are being emotionally abused. (I DID!!!) and they rehoused me. (THAT is if you really want PEACE) because unless he gets help, he won't change that is a promise I can say with all my heart. IT took me a while to get there but now I know PEACE is very valuable. ALSO a counselor in abuse will help you to figure this all out.

SO let me ask you, you've put allot of effort into the house. HURTS TO LEAVE IT!!! Well look at this way (I have been in the same place as you are now so I don't say this to hurt you just to help you) WELL How MUCH do you think its gonna hurt when you look back on your life in another 20 years and see it so STUCK, so wasted??? Was the house really worth all the pain?? could you answer this question with IT WAS WORTH IT??? If not then its not worth it.

YOU See there is also another option, you have a child YES, RIGHT well if he is being emotionally abusive, TAPE him if you can, and then you can have him moved out of the house under the mental cruelty act. SOUNDS harsh but it may come to this later on, so its best to know where you stand on everything. I was horrified when my therapist suggested I check out my options in case I ever had to leave. BUT I AM GLAD I DID.

YOU can't make him do anything, though you can say what you will do. E.g. You will buy your own car etc as I said above, give him choices, then it breaks the power struggle. BUT stick to what you said you'd do if he was awkward and that is in this case buy your own car.

IT IS CONFUSING ONLY IF YOU DON'T LOOK AT WHAT YOU CAN DO AND DROP THE GUILT FOR LOOKING AFTER YOURSELF THIS IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN SURVIVE IS LOOKING AFTER YOURSELF AND NOT BUYING UNNECESSARY GUILT.

YOU GET THE RESPECT YOU SEEK.

Love Theressa

YOU HAVE TO TREAT YOURSELF RIGHT BEFORE THINGS CHANGE.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

Hi EVERYONE,

Now I have some advice, support I seek:

I have a problem and need some help finding some solutions.

I like to do WebPages and manage a site for work. Anyway I've worked hard learning all about them. A colleague asked me about editing, NOW there is some history linked to all of this. Before I took on my current job, the lady who did it previously was on the sick so her duties were distributed temporarily to other staff members. The ideas was when someone new was appointed (In this case me) the duties would be returned to the new worker. (In this case me ) though when I started working one of my duties under my job description wasn't returned - why? because the girl doing it asked her boss who was the head of the department could she keep it and he said YES. He told me it was the way it was and that was that.

Anyway back to the webpages etc (now you know the history) I had attended a couple of web courses, and some time later a full course on line was brought out by our employers, so I wanted to go on it for the initial day so I could collect the stuff to do it. Though it seemed so did my colleague want to go on the course. She went and collected the stuff but then decided not to use it to do the online course. (THIS MAKES ME SO ANGRY, how selfish) Anyway 6 months later she went on 4 webpage courses about designing web pages. I was told I'd been on enough (ME been on two her been on FOUR - does it figure.)

Anyway on Friday she e-mailed me asking me if I could show her how to edit pages. (YES me who has only been on TWO courses, and learnt herself in her own free time the rest of the stuff concerning editing) Well you might have guessed by now that I was angry, that she asked ME to help her to edit pages.

Why should I be angry? because today I found out she wanted me to teach her my stuff so she could go and manage the departmental pages, new job she said she'd do!!!! BUT in order to do it she needs my knowledge. IF she is shown how to edit then she'll get the new task and praise and a future promotion. SO WHY SHOULD I HELP HER????? To get strides over me. WHEN INDEED!!!

SO I am livid, mad, GOOD NESS I AM ANGRY.

NOW: What do I require from my lovely family here, apart from someone to listen to me. I REQUIRE someone to tell me if I am SELFISH or SELFLESS (as in thy self protection)??

Am I wrong to want to not tell her my knowledge? Am I looking after myself? OR BEING childish?

You see it gets me so mad when its not what you know but who you know that helps you climb!! BUT the cheek of it is the one climbing thinks she or he can get knowledge off the likes of me, so in actual fact whilst she climbs and takes all my knowledge I stay right where I am at the bottom.

HOPE SOME CAN HELP, this anger is eating me up.

Love Theressa  I think you are having trouble taking/ asking for what you want in the workplace Theressa. You are mad at her because she knows how to take what she wants. Tip: Watch how she operates and learn from her. Then, you won't feel so left out in the cold.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa

I think I can offer some input to your work dilemma. I went through a similar thing. I had applied to be co-ordinator of a department. The manager of this department, "Bob" was the one making the hiring decisions (and also an emotional abuser IMO), the head of the company, "John" (who we both answered to) had told Bob that he felt I could do the job and was confident in my abilities, but left the hiring discretion to him.

I had been doing the co-ordinator job after the former co-ordinator had left, so I definitely had the skills because I was in fact *doing* the job. Anyways, Bob didn't hire me for the position (mostly I think because I was female, and my having any authority was threatening to him - just my speculation, but I believe it to be true).

After I was told that the position would be given to someone else (a man, with less experience), Bob temporarily filled the position, and I went back to my old position. Bob had never been trained in the position himself and I was the one who had the most knowledge and training in the area. Bob then began to try to "redefine" the position, so that I would continue undertaking the more difficult tasks and he would do the easy ones. Before letting my resentment build, I immediately went to John (head of the company) and told him of the situation. I told him that I had no problem with Bob hiring someone else, but that my fear was that I would end up doing the job anyway, while someone else got paid for it. I told him that I wouldn't do that. John understood, was supportive, and was very clear on my boundaries about this. He spoke with Bob. After that, I continued my simpler job, while Bob flailed around trying to train himself without any former knowledge of the task. He often expressed frustration, but I offered no help, nor was I in any way negative towards him in his undertakings. I just let it be his problem and went along my merry way. I ended up feeling okay about the whole thing because I had very clear boundaries. The good thing about how the situation turned out is that I had less pressure and responsibility, (and eventually got a way better job at a different company anyway).

So Theressa, in your case, I would do something similar - express to your boss what you feel is going on, and explain that you don't want to be responsible for someone else's training for a job that you wanted to have. If your boss clearly understands the circumstances *before* any uncomfortable situations arise, it's easier on you. Also you can explain to your co-worker why you feel uncomfortable about training her. Keep your cool in explaining this to her - practicing this in advance would help. If you keep the focus on the situation and not on your resentment about her new job, you'll be able to deal with this constructively. Also, if both of them are more aware of your desire to do web-pages, maybe you will be considered more seriously when something else comes up. Maybe you'll even be able to work out an arrangement so that the web-page work can be combined between the two of you.

Good luck!

I haven't gone through all the posts and I have to run.

love Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

Dear Theressa My thoughts echo Asha's on your work problem.

Dear Suzy. I don't think I have got to leaving yet. But I can really identify with wanting to feel the Lord's spirit in your home. Mine has really felt like home again since it had a kind of prayer spring clean on Saturday. I think that you will have to be very careful with your son. I have a violent daughter so this is an area I can comment on. In the end, you have to protect the other children from the violence.

I am learning with my daughter who rang at least 4 times today to announce that she has decided she is not going to forgive me until she is 18. (I have yet to understand how she wants to forgive me for her violence that the ties are strong even if they "side" with the husband. I have just realized ALL the this number cannot be given out are from her.......I assumed they were the domestic violence unit.

What I am trying to say is if he is violent, let him know you love him and tell him you will have him back but let him make his own choice. I lived in fear of my daughter for a while. My husband never intervened and on one day, I ended up in casualty. She still thinks my husband is wonderful, but I am noticing that she does want contact even if it is only to tell me she doesn't. Now she lives alone and I am sure eventually the crisis to bring her back will happen. (She is only 16). I have a friend who had 4 leave home and they all came back. All live really near now and she is always telling me this is a phase and that they grow through it. Her daughter says the same. love Jay.

Dear Theressa I get the feeling you want me to leave now. Actually. I have legal aid now and there is a chance that things might change. After all the trouble with my daughter I don't want to rush my son. He has to be ready to leave too. He is a lot older than Missy and it has to be his choice. At present I am here as he doesn't want to leave. Also I have the house to myself for a lot of the day and there is a lot of space now to be apart. I need to take it slowly. Also I am not moving in a year I have been in a psychiatric hospital as I am sure that his solicitor would play this one up. He can't send me nuts any more as I have created an extra sitting room.

The reason the anger thing is so difficult is that my husband has for years made me feel it is Wrong to get angry> He is convinced he never does and the therapists think he is scared by having for the first time to feel emotion!

My son has a really good relationship with us both. We try to keep things from him and although he senses it he is one of those kids who copes very well. Actually I think he is sanest of the whole family. He has the offer of therapy whenever he wants it. The one thing I do try to do is not let hi m be over responsible.

There are a lot of things in the family history which have made life very complicated. Not al of what has happened is my husband or mix's fault. (Deaths, daughter abused, other grisly things.) If those things hadn't happened and changed things for us all then I would have left like a shot a long time ago.

If I really think it is time to leave I will. Don't worry. I really appreciate your concern. Thanks.

One really y helpful thing is our friends have seen the problem. A lot of us think my husband has been worse since the death of his best friend. Two years ago I would not have thought I was abused. Now more people are realizing they need to come round to support and not respect his space.

d ear Lynn I hope the migraine has gone away. I used to get them like that. The worst kind of bad head. My aunt got them for years and then she found she was allergic to vitamin C. I guess we are both in different time zones or we could write through the night. I don't ever sleep well.

A J I hope the trip goes well.

Becky. Hope you're are O.K. Just found where you write about cognitive dissonance and I think that it makes a lot of sense.

Steve.

Where do disappearing posts go? I ever can understand why things can be read mid air. Do they dissolve?

Dan

Where are you?

E everyone else I am thinking of you. Keep strong.

We had mince pies and.........banana custard........for tea to celebrate putting up the tree.......I suppose when you think of it I should be respecting his wish to eat banana custard every day. I suppose I use dot eat Mars Bars. (Sweet).

At least I like my house again and can take interest in it. Also went for a glorious walk in the woods, I am lucky enough to live by a river and woods. It made me remember the food times when the children were young. I used to make rosehip syrup and supplement our meager income from the wild fruit. Collected lots of dead branches to dry. Slipped in the mud and had a wonderful time. That is real therapy. Tomorrow I will collect some rosehips....Love Jay/

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, December 05, 2000

S1

Jay

Something I notice is that when you focus on what you *can* do you sound grounded and 'in control'. When you focus more on others, or things that you don't have control over you appear to get out of balance. If your family's judgments, ultimatums are too much for you to cope with, could you withdraw from them? Even temporarily? Could you make the decision not to speak with them about certain issues and let them know you don't feel up to discussing these things right now? You could do this in a way that is respectful to both you and them. As in "I really appreciate your concern, but I'm just not up to talking about it right now. Thanks for caring, but I need to focus on more positive things right now." or whatever feels right to you. You don't need to respond to their ultimatums, though I know emotionally this can be difficult.

I think you are also disappointing yourself by expecting your husband to read your plays, participate in friendly competitions etc. It's his choice whether to do this or not, and if you ask him for these things, you need to be prepared for him to say "no" and accept his response gracefully. You can't make him be what you want him to be. He is what he is - take it or leave it. I think you're adding fuel to the fire by being bothered by things that he's doing. You don't have to let them bother you. I think it's a pattern you could work on breaking.

Oh and Jay - about the 'disappearing posts' - do you hit refresh on your browser after submitting and hitting the appropriate 'read the posts' link? Often when I hit the 'read the posts' link my browser doesn't show my post - something to do with old cache or something. When I hit 'refresh' on my computer browser (internet explorer or Netscape) then it always shows up, unless of course Dr. I happens to have been editing at that exact moment.

AJ:

<<<Maybe I just secretly hoped it would be easier and quicker....>>> Yes, don't we all. Who wants to spend a life time in this kind of upheaval? But I think conflict can be resolved most quickly by being faced head on. Running from it makes things worse in the long run (even if it feels better in the short term).

<<<As for Steve and you, I can see both of you trying to be very careful in what you say to/about each other. You both seem to want to say the right things, but I still feel there is a lot of anger there. If I am right about that, don't repress it. Just don't take it out on each other, but feel it anyway. I really still get so mad at times, but thinking about it, feeling it, helps me to address the underlying problems. Don't get too nice. >>>

Thanks. :) It's funny to be told to not be "nice" - so opposite from what we're used to. I don't feel angry right now, but I do feel guarded. As Dr Irene said: “Mess with me once, shame on you. Mess with me twice, shame on me!" It's *my* responsibility to keep myself safe, and I just can't subject myself to push-always anymore. I know that there are no guarantees in life. I do care about Steve and hope he chooses a path that will compliment my own path, but it's a "wait and see" kind of thing right now. I *don't* want to fall into the old pattern anymore. And there are many many things Steve and I would need to look at. I'm realizing that another really big one for me is how we both approach the role of parenting. This is something I am willing to improve, and I need to see that he also wants to constructively improve his parenting methods before I jump back into a relationship. Steve, his kids, his X and his family are a package deal so I need to know I can handle all of it, and that it still enhances my life. I'm not interested in 'fixing' anybody anymore.

Dan

I'd like to hear your point of view about Lynn's last post. Were you really wishing to hear her out? That kind of stuff can be difficult to hear (criticisms, complaints etc.) and I wonder if maybe you didn't comment because you felt bad about what you had done. Everyone is different. Sometimes after hearing something I don't like about myself, I need time and space to really consider it and I can't react positively right away. Also, timing can be important with this. For example, I know there are times when I'm just not in the mood for discussing my faults. If the topic comes up I have learned to just say - I'm not up to talking about this right at this moment, but I *will* talk to you about it later - this evening, tomorrow, or I'll let you know when, whatever. As long as the other person involved knows it won't get swept under the carpet, I think this should be okay. Then you have to respect your partner's feelings of not wanting to get too close until it is dealt with. That's fair too.

Sadheart

Good luck with the upcoming weekend.

Suzy

I'm sorry things are so rough right now. He's probably torn between protecting the status quo and facing the future.

<<If my husband is willing to go to personal counseling for anger management and join a support group for men who emotionally abuse,,,is it worth it continue trying to work on the relationship???>>

Regardless of the status of the relationship, I would be supportive of his getting help.

Trubble

If you stay under the bed any longer, I will send my dog to go get you.

bye for now. FakeMommy AkAsha, phooey to youey. You are a yukky dog lover. Yuk yuk yuk!  

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, December 06, 2000

S1

Asha here

I have a lot of mixed feelings and I’m not sure where to go with them. Steve wanted to visit this evening. I wanted to see him, but I couldn’t somehow. I didn’t feel I could handle him walking out mad, and there seems to be no way he can convince me he won’t. I understand his previous anger wasn’t really about me, but I’m so worried about enabling those old patterns. I feel that this is how it goes: he gets mad, he cools down, he wants closeness, I get close, he relaxes, I relax – then he pushes me away. I don’t know how to break this pattern without just not getting close enough *not* to get pushed away. What can I do to change this pattern without repeating old mistakes? I want to give him a chance and yet I am so afraid to continue repeating the old stuff. This one is easier said than done because it is about your internal stuff. Without excusing Steve's ambivalence, you put so much weight on his emotional state, you forget it is about him and not you - and you let it affect you. You are doing OK by maintaining some physical distance as you learn to fix this. Pay attention inside. Watch how acutely sensitive you are to his moods. Watch how you allow his distancing to affect you. This is where you bounce off of him. 

Watch yourself and the internal monologue that sets you up to feel hurt/annoyed, etc. Steve, meanwhile, is doing a very similar thing. He puts too much weight on your hurt /annoyance and before you know it, you two are each bouncing off the other. I think his internal self talk is along the lines of not being able to please you and he gets frustrated with letting you down, you want too much, etc. etc. 

Yuk yuk yuk! Goal: Let the man pull away. It's got nothing to do with you. Look at this until you learn this very important emotional lesson. Then, as you become OK with his pulling away, watch him pull away less and less. 

Steve needs to do similar with letting you feel hurt/ sad, etc.

Lynn needs to do this with Dan and his uncommunicative-ness. 

Get it? This is BIG.

On one hand, I do want to see him and I enjoy his company, on the other hand I don’t feel strong enough to experience another angry episode. He isn’t angry, or doesn’t seem to be, but I’m so afraid to risk another walk-out or push-away type thing. So now *I’m* pushing away before it can happen. You are in the process of learning to make your own emotional state primary as opposed to needing him to feel good so that you can feel good.

I feel bad telling him not to come over. I know that he is really trying to work on his issues. I’m just afraid that neither of us have all the tools yet that will keep us on track. OK. 

I don’t want to expect him to be perfect and I know there will be more backward steps as well as forward steps. But I don’t know if I can handle the backward steps right now. OK. That's why you need to take your space right now. And I don’t think this sets up a very healing atmosphere for Steve. Don't worry about Steve. You've got enough to take care of already.

Earlier I said <<<I can't let myself be hurt with his pushing away. I need to know he has the skill to stop doing that before I could let myself get close again.>>> and Dr. I said <<< NO. You need to know that you have the skill to deal with his pushing away. >>> Yes.

What is that skill exactly? Not feeling hurt? Is that really possible? In my brain I know it’s about him and not about me, yet I want him to stop doing this so much! Because somewhere deep down you think that if he feels good, you will feel good. You are making him responsible for your happiness and are therefore working overtime stepping on eggshells or whatever you do to "make" him happy. Yuk yuk yuk. Hard work Asha! And too much responsibility on Steve to feel OK so you can feel OK. 

The reality is that no matter what you want, he will do what he will do, and that has nothing to do with you. It is OK for you to feel OK about him even though he is feeling distant. By "disengaging" you give Steve permission to feel how he feels. He is accepted for being who he is, no strings attached. You respect his feelings. You don't confuse your boundaries with his.  Wouldn't it be cool to do this with each other?

Just how many push-always are one too many? I guess I’m afraid of leading my life on a roller coaster. I want things to be level, even. I know that I’ve let Steve’s actions and words affect me because on some level I guess I believe that he believes what he is saying when he is angry, and because I do love him and care about what he thinks, I allow that to hurt me. I know that life is full of risks, but how many risks are one too many? Where is the risk in becoming emotionally self sufficient? You take away the power you have given him to hurt you simply because he is human and has his own set of feelings.

Another issue that concerns me that hasn't been worked out is the issue surrounding the dog. Steve doesn’t like having the dog in the bedroom at night. I don’t like the dog outside the bedroom because he whines at the door. He’s 12 years old and he’s used to sleeping in the room with me. With a new dog I could get used to the idea of training it to sleep in a new area. My poor dog has been through a lot of upheaval though, and I just don’t want to do this. So don't, unless of course Steve is allergic to the dog or something along those lines. I feel pretty strongly about it, and Steve seems to feel just as strongly that the dog should not be in the room. If it were a piece of furniture, or anything inanimate I would be willing to give on this issue, but I just don’t think I can on this one. I did used to put the dog out while Steve lived with me, and I was never happy about it. Maybe I’m being totally unreasonable but I just don’t think I can bend much on this. When I told Steve this he said he felt sad about it. I don’t understand the sadness. I don’t understand why Steve can’t bend on this one issue. Because it's not about the dog. You two have used every single issue in your lives to turn into a control battle. There is little respect for the other person since each of you make the other responsible for your feelings. My guess is Steve feels the dog is more important to you than he is, meanwhile, you don't understand why he's making such a fuss over the dog. The reality is that this has nothing to do with the dog and everything to do with letting the other person be - and not attaching undue, over-personalized significance to where the other person is at a given point in time. When you guys can respect the right each of you has to feel however they feel and let them feel that way, the dog is no longer the hook for the emotional issue. Am I being clear? 

An aside: This is scary: This is what battling parents do to kids. They make the kids the issue, when it's got nothing to do with the kids.

Dr Irene asked: <<Why would it be so difficult for you two to keep a business relationship for now? Don't talk about other stuff. After all, you both have an interest in your business!>>

I agree, I just hate it when shutting the business down is used as an ultimatum. I guess I could just try to brush this type of ultimatum off, knowing that Steve has always come through for clients in the past. Have you meant the things you have said in anger?  

I’ve also been thinking about how our independence and personal growth could extend to the way we operate together in business. For example, there are projects that I am interested in pursuing which may or may not be of interest to Steve. I am going to make a commitment to pursuing them now. If we need to split off some areas of the business so that we are less dependent on each other and happier about what we are doing then so be it. Hey, this is nothing to be sad about, which is somehow the tone you convey; this is good stuff. You are joined in business, not at the hip.

Dr I said: <<< do you see Steve softer than in prior posts? He is more whole and discovering the lighter aspects of self. >>>

Yes absolutely. A few months ago I would be jumping up and down about this, but I realize now that this is a process of forward steps and backward steps. And just like backward steps aren’t “failure” neither are the forward steps a sign that everything will be forever okay (though I still far prefer the forward steps). I think the less I get really excited about backwards or forwards steps, the more level I feel. Yes. Now you are making you more responsible for your well being. Try also to understand that you are doing the exact same thing in Steve's eyes that you complain about in him. Recognize that your growing ability to see backward steps as process vs. failure, etc., feels good to Steve. He does not want to be judged - worse, he does not want you reacting emotionally to his every move. (What a burden that is!)  I’m discovering growth as a process, not a one-time event. However I’m also afraid to be disappointed, and this may be impeding me. Growth is about the courage to take risks. No risk, no growth.

Steve’s posts are very grounded, healthy and introspective – everything I ever wanted him to be. Which he is. But the earlier stuff is still resonating in my head. And I am very aware of my responsibility to myself. I am in a way angry with myself for tolerating some of the previous mess. Good. You are learning. Again, flip side: Think how ticked he must feel to have allowed himself to go to those places, which I know he knows was his doing.

On a positive note I want to mention that my recent dreams have been full of growth symbolism. First I was buying tulip bulbs with a friend. She had negotiated a price on bulbs and I was offered the same reduced price for even more bulbs. However I wondered if the cashier would know to discount the goods. Then the dream went on to another scenario. The same friend later showed me the initial sprouts from a barrel of seeds. They were hidden beneath a lot of muddy sludge and she had to scrape around it to show me. There was also a long poem written on a window which had a message. (I think it was supposed to be written by Dr. Irene :)) (Cool; you've just gifted me with a talent I wish I had.) I can’t remember all that it said, other than the basic message “take care of yourself”. I think the message of the dream is pretty obvious. I have my own seeds/bulbs to plant. Maybe there is other growth that I can’t see clearly because of the sludge. Maybe focusing on getting a good ‘deal’ in life, and offers that may or may not come through, is detracting me from the planting and nurturing I need to do.

Thanks for listening.

Asha

P.S. Dr. I – I have another idea about NEO and NDO. What about NEO and DO instead? This is easier because “negatively disempowered one” is a double negative. This should also be easier to remember because NEO is a longer word (more power = longer) and DO is shorter. It’s easier for me to remember anyway. I'll go for it. I'd still like to hone down these terms some more. Maybe find a way to make them catchy and have the acronym make more sense with more widely understood meaning. 

By the way, your idea to refresh the browser window and cut and paste just before I save was excellent. Theressa's message below otherwise would have been history. By the way, I am not responsible for lots of the black hole behavior you guys talk about. I don't have a clue what happens to that stuff...