Comments for Catbox 13

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Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos   Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

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B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000

S1

Just a short one--

I need a little TLC. I had my second mammogram within a week yesterday. They needed to zero in on a certain spot. I could see it on the first set of x-rays, a kind of dense looking area. I know that it's probably nothing, but two of my aunts have had breast cancer, so I'm a little nervous. H says I'm "making life miserable for everyone else worrying about it." My "worrying" has consisted of mentioning my concern a total of two times! I'm not crying, wringing my hands, etc.

Still, I won't breathe easy until I hear from the doctor. My depression is worse again and this isn't helping. You guys are my support group so I'm asking for positive thoughts.

Thanks,

becky  Lots and lots of positive thoughts and prayers for you Becky.

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000

S1

Link back to catbox 12 (blue penciled)

http://drirene.com/forms/comments_cat12.htm

(just trying to help out the doc - you can take this off once it's fixed)

Asha

Thanks Asha!

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000

S1

Becky - you have my good thoughts. Take care. I have a family history of breast cancer as well, so I do understand.

My mom has had several lumps, all of which were benign. Please don't worry. And take care of yourself okay?

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000

S1

Asha here: have been thinking lots and lots over the past couple of days. I've been feeling in shambles; as if a hurricane has struck in my life. I know that I am currently going through one of life's major exams and it's been very uncertain whether I'll get through the test, or just keep repeating it again and again. The lessons keep coming until the learning is mastered. Been thinking that there was one boundary that I had never exercised completely - we work together and that boundary is a really scary one - folding our interconnected businesses (or un-connecting them). This is a really painful one because I have put 3 years of very intense effort and time, and a whole pile of money (a lot borrowed from my dad). We both have very specialized compatible skills. However, the business has suffered because of our personal problems. I always felt we could carry on as business partners regardless of what happened on a personal level, but I'm realizing that this is very unrealistic. There is the whole challenge of deciding just how things will work, and how to communicate this to clients in a professional way so as not to jeopardize future choices or credibility.

It's a very immense load, but one that I must face. I have lived more than 4 years with this relationship instability. I've had enough. I wrote the following (to Steve, though he may not read it, but also to myself). It no longer matters to me how he interprets it. I know what I mean. God knows what I mean. And that's all that really matters.

***

I will be sad no longer. I am strong.

My gift to you is to not allow you to hurt me anymore.

I was taught that if a man ever hits you, you walk away forever.

But no-one told me just how many verbal and emotional strikes were acceptable.

I've just hit the limit.

My compassion for you has been my weakness.

If I believe you are strong and capable, then I will know you are better off without me to abuse.

I will know that without me to support you, you will have no choice but to support yourself.

I will also know that no matter how broken my life appears, that I can always rebuild. That the height of disaster might just be the peak of my growth.

And my strength and growth can be a model for others to be strong and to grow.

If I can do it, so can they.

I will rise above this. I will be okay.

You will rise above this. You will; be OK. Sorry you are (both) hurting...

love to all

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000

S1

Dear AJ... Thank you for your welcome and positive comments. Yes, I do believe my husband loves best that he can and understands. He doesn't love himself, so how can he truly love another? As for me, yes I believe I love him, I definitely care a lot, however, he has hurt me for so long (over and over again), it's really getting old being hurt all the time. I guess I have that little wall built up around me for protection, just so I won't have to hurt again. I believe that wall must come down if we are to heal, I'm not sure I want it to come down. He does'nt like any counselors here in this area. He once went to a men's only group for emotional, verbal and physical abuse, he came home with a Cheshire cat smile, feeling pretty good about himself because all the other guys there were "so bad", it mad him feel "so good", all had been physcially violent offenders, jail and all, so he looked like the "saint"... he never went back. He tells me he needs help, but I see no action on his part. He tells me other times, he's only like this with me and never has any problems with any one else any where else. I feel like he's playing the "mind games" stuff. Right now I just feel all mixed up about us. I will think a lot about your advice, and have been thinking about it...ie: if you don't love him and only stay out of obligation, it will never work." Thank you

Becky, Hi, I'm only 38, last year right before Christmas, I had a baseline mammogram. They said it was fine and sent me home. The next day they called me back for another, "just to be sure", they saw a "tiny something" . My aunt on my mother's side died of breast cancer at 47, so this terrified me a lot. Well, the second mammogram came back suspicious, I was sent on to the specialists a couple weeks before Christmas. I ended up with another mammogram, ultrasound and two core biopsies  then I waited 2 weeks for "the answer". It was a terrible two weeks, I was sure I was going to die, I cut my hair really short because I was sure I'd have to have chemo. I went crazy with worry. I had absolutely no support from my husband, he said I was really kind of being a "baby" about it. (That hurt so bad.) Turns out I had some calcium deposits which were pre-cancerous, but not cancer and all was taken out at the core biopsies. (The biopsies were not painful at all, just sore later and a big bruise. I now follow up every six months, and all is well. )The moral of the story, don't worry, all will be well, they have such wonderful things to help now. Yes, I understand the worry, and the wait is awful, and the imagination can run wild (In sensitive people this happens even more.) So do all the doctors say and be extra kind to yourself to fill the time with positive, self-caring ways and things to do, don't feel guilty a bit about this. I'll say a prayer for you, I'm sure you'll do just fine

Love to all, Suzy (the new gal on the block...aka..butterfly)

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000

S1

Asha again

I had changed the first line on my poem and accidentally submitted the other version.

It said "I will be sad no longer", but I realized that I will feel sad sometimes, for periods, and that's okay, just don't want to live there.

The re-write says:

"I will no longer put my energy into sadness, disappointment and fear.

I am strong.

I will no longer live on false hope."  Very nice change. It puts your life into YOUR hands.

Rest is the same. Doesn't really matter anyway - the poem is for me, just wanted to share.

Asha 

***

B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000

S1

Dear Asha and Suzy,

Thanks for your encouragement and kind thoughts. I had a sonogram last year; I'm full of benign cysts, so maybe this is what it is. At any rate, I'm not in a panic, just understandably nervous. The spot is way back by the chest wall, I guess. She had to really squish me, but it wasn't too bad. I'm one of the fortunate ones that don't experience much discomfort with mammograms.

I'm glad to know that the core biopsies didn't hurt, Suzie, as having that done is something I've always feared. Hopefully, if I need to have it done, it won't be too bad for me, either. At any rate, nothing could possibly be as painful as dying of cancer, so i figure whatever discomfort i go through now is worth it.

I'm sorry that your husband wasn't more supportive. I think they get scared and don't want to admit it, so they distance themselves by hiding behind a rough, tough exterior. Also, by minimizing our feelings, they make the problem less real, and less serious, thus letting themselves off the hook: if the situation is so trivial, they don't have to deal with it.

Asha, I appreciate your poem. I feel much the same way. I'm tired of being jerked around because he can't bring himself to commit to really working on the marriage. He seems to think that this is about who looks worse--him or me, and heaven forbid it's him! I think he still wants me to accept blame for how he's treated me--he doesn't seem willing to settle for anything else. He says he wants to work on things, then does absolutely nothing that's different, and is very offended that i expect him to.

Well, thanks again Asha and Suzy! Take care! Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000

S1

Becky, thoughts and prayers to you. I hope the results are o.k. We won't complain if you keep posting your feelings here. Do keep in touch and I really empathize about the depression. I think sometimes it a s response to not feeling cared for by our husbands.

Asha my thoughts and prayers are also with you. Guess there is some tough decision making ahead and I hope you and Steve can sort out your differences in a way which means you can both make a positive start again. I like your poem and I think you were right to change the first line.

Theressa, thanks for your posts it is nice to feel so cared for.

Actually, I didn't know it when I last wrote but I was going down with a sickness bug that seems to have got a hold round here. It is pretty nasty as it is impossible to keep anything not even water down.

I decided to re write the agenda. And to write explanations of all the things he wants discussed as some of then just get stupid. He even has prayers written down. I am not sure how he thinks he can stop me or anyone else praying for him! And exorcisms?????????????? I have not tried to exorcise any of my family so who knows what he means......Some days I wonder if he uses the Christian thing as a weapon.

Actually, we did have a small headway yesterday. I was feeling really rough and got worried about dehydration. Husband ignored me. I told him this was the sort of thing I found emotionally abusive and he had to remember the one who ultimately suffers is our son. Today I got a drink brought up and breakfast made and he actually offered to do some shopping. He was also careful to ask about dinner and tell me when he would be back. Please God let there be progress.

I don't think now in my won't go to therapy post that I was really doing much more than logging my brain off. I got a lot of sleep being ill which always makes me feel more positive. I still don't know if I will go. I could just tell him to send the agenda as it is and place a time limit on things. I don't know. A lot of me does feel very ambivalent and I wonder if I am not subconsciously seeking revenge for the times he refused therapy. I have no idea at all. My brain is still a bit at sea from being ill and I of course couldn't keep the tablets down so I am probably going to react to that again.

I think I am going to find out all the foods that contain serotonin out and go on a serotonin high diet so I can get myself off the stupid things. Try St. John's wort too.

At least one good thing happened. I got a call from the leader of a writer's group inviting me along. I am making going a priority. That will be a move towards my new life as me.

Lynn. I really am writing "Love and the Laundry!" It is pretty Mills and Booneish but I will show you as soon as I get it underway. This like the website is going to be nothing to do with my husband. He isn't going to be offered the chance to read it.

Well, despite being washed out, I do feel chirpier. (No Trubble, not a bird!) and I am not running any more Dr Irene. Maybe I just had to reorganize my brain again. :)

Hope you all had a happy Thanksgiving Thursday. I can't make English politics out yet alone American. As far as I understand it you don't have a president until Friday week? Well here we put up with a woman Prime Minister who still I think, thinks she was elected queen so we can't talk. But we can: Al, drop it buddy. You lost!

By the way Lynn, I keep meaning to tell you I have Circus blood. Via my great Grandmother. She also had a dance troupe and married a Russian Prince! She was also the 'Lady sawn in half.'!!

I think a few posts back you wrote about a Romany connection. I know quite a few of the local Traveller women from teaching childcare and a lot of their children went to the same schools as mine. I think they like me because I don't come from middle class ancestry. I really like them.

Suzy, I am glad you are posting. It is good to have you here. The thing that my, Becky and your husband's all have in common is the ability to hurt by ignoring us when we are most in need of support. It is interesting that we are also holding Christian beliefs and I wonder if there is any connection.

I wonder if my husband is so determined to prove there is no God he assumes if I can't find complete support in God then he has a reason to say there is no God! I really think this is how he may think!

Something I find intriguing is that when I suffered a loss of faith following my daughters disclosure of abuse and got very depressed and suicidal my husband suddenly started liking my Christian friends. Now I have a sort of faith again he seems to be anti Christian again.

I wish in some ways I could get properly back into the Christian thing, but I get really afraid of getting sidetracked into following things that won't work for me. I just can't go with the submission bit and all the good churches have that as part of their belief system which confuses me no end. "Submission" works both ways. Jesus never suggested we hurt ourselves in helping other. Think: He was friends with the prostitute. He didn't marry her. No way will I ever again submit to what I see as control or to abuse.

The trouble is our church leaders haven't really understood what codependence is. I don't feel as yet I have the ability to explain it and I do want to try and write something but I feel I need to have got further along the road. It would be good to find a Codependency Recovery Handbook for Christians and Christian Leaders. Did you look at this thread?

I tried to tell the leader of the Church I like what I was going through and he got angry and said my husband had told him another side of the story. He seems to have changed a bit since then, but i think codependency is just a word here in England as yet.

I am still trying to define it for my course!

Love to all, jay

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000

S1

Dear all.

This is just a post to try and make sense of the discussion I just had with my husband. He did read my poem. He showed it to "other people." but he won't say who. "They" told him it was food for a psychoanalyst. Apparently we are coexisting to see if we can rebuild the relationship. I wouldn't mind this but he hasn't asked me if I want this. We are apparently not divorcing. Where is my choice in this? It will take a long time to put the relationship back together. You are telling me! He is happy as he is. (Oh yeah!). I think actually he is pretty riled. He wishes I would break free but he has decided for himself what I mean! I now think I am married to the ultimate controller. Pity for him I won't accept the control. And guess what. He managed to get religion into the discussion again! I think he was a bit put out when I agreed I might have been codependent on the church as well as him. But I don't think he has any idea what codependency is!

It is a breakthrough he read it at all. Good!

Let him think what he likes.

He has lost a good wife. He won't find her again without looking. 

love Jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000

S1

Oh yes and apparently it is food for psychoanalysis according to these mysterious 'other people." Jay   Ugh. He just had to get the dig in...

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000

S1

Hi, everyone,

Just venting a little to keep myself from asking my husband for the 100th time to show me some kindness. Good. You don't need his kindness if it is not freely given. His loss, actually. I asked him earlier today if he couldn't just let me feel how I feel, validate that this is a scary situation and ask me what I need him to do to help me feel better. he replied that he finds me repugnant, and that he can't give me that "right now." UGH! YUK! PHOOEY! What a horrible reply!

Just a week ago this man who finds me repugnant was all over me, telling me he needs and wants me (I returned the affection, but didn't go further. I told him that I need to know and see that he's committed to working on this mess). He accepted that. Now I repulse him because I'm depressed over the state of the marriage and nervous about this mysterious dark spot in my breast.

I've pretty much kept out of his way most of the day. The boys helped me set the tree up and put on the lights. I'll finish decorating during the week. We laughed a lot as they worked (I supervised :-) ); my boys have good senses of humor, and my youngest especially comes up with the funniest remarks. My husband was sitting in the kitchen--his usual spot, in front of the TV,-- and I hope he heard me laughing! He can be repulsed all he wants, but I can still laugh and enjoy life!

jay, I'm sorry you've been so sick! Hope you are better. as for you poem being food for psychoanalysis, I can only think that this is yet another attempt on his part to make you feel that you are the unstable one--sounds familiar! After all, these guys are innocent, they are the normal ones, the nice guys. They just had the misfortune to choose emotionally unstable, crazy women for wives! You only THINK you're being abused!

My husband always accuses me of having PMS whenever I express unhappiness about the marriage, and now that the PMDD commercial is on, he's added that to his arsenal. I hate it when he does that; it feels so disrespectful! It's like: Becky, there's no problem here. I'm not abusing you! You've got PMS and that turns you into an irrational witch! You're making ME suffer!

Well, enough venting. I'm sure I'll be back! :-)

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000

S1

Hi. This is mostly for any men who may be lurking, although you women may find something valuable here - I really really hope so, because it may avoid disaster for your relationships.

I have been on a difficult road of self-analysis, to discover my hidden parts, those which hurt others. I have found many things along this road. I have seen my ugliness, my cruelty and my insecurity.

I had a partner, whom I was treating very poorly at times. I had to find out why. I believe I have. I believe I am aware of most (not all) of it.

Because I was in this relationship, and on this board, I have more than my SELF at stake. I had a relationship at stake. In this journey, I have realized the fatal error prevalent in the whole exercise. That error is the error of omission. It means that I can work on myself, but not my relationship. Right. It takes two to tango.

The error of omission is also the error of non-admission. What has been missed, by the good doctor and others here, is the essential element of human relationships. Einstein called it the theory of relativity. When your cat fatally knocks an innocent butterfly out of the air on a warm summer Sunday afternoon, what else happens in the world because of it? Nothing? That depends. We don't know what role that butterfly may have played in the next day of it's life. Steve, you are finding fault with your interpretation of my work. I am not surprised to see people make fundamental errors because it's hard to "get" this stuff all at once, but your approach, that of attack, is a non-productive way of handling the issue. All you do is alienate others..

So, apply the relativity theory in my case. I believe, that our up-down relationship was primarily based on relativity rather than substance. There was a bouncing. The bouncing. Back and forth. No one called the cat off. Asha and I simply bounced off each other over and over again. Correct. Each person's job is to stop bouncing off other. That's why I ask people to stop acting out or stop reacting.

A few people here noticed it and remarked. That's very good observation.

I believe the Dr missed the significance and the immensity of it. Nope.

She seemed to think that she had found the "abuser" and the "victim". She in fact stated so. Many times I think. You have not read the site carefully. "Victim" and "abuser" are relative terms. The balance of power is probably the most important variable that will determine whether or not a relationship is abusive. And, any relationship is relative, wholly dependent on the interactive sum of it's parts. That's why Asha can't do it alone Steve. Nor can you. That's why so-called "victims" get "blue penciled" as well as so-called "abusers." .

However, that determination, has created ( I believe ) an "enabling" atmosphere, which in turn has allowed for Name (Asha) to "opt out" of "the solution". You have overstepped your boundaries by repeatedly referring to Asha by her name when she has chosen not to make that name available. Your tendency to hurt when you are hurt is one thing you need to get control over, for your own sake. As you've seen me relate before, "Steve has the problem". Each of you have your own problems. Once in awhile the Dr would kick in something that seemed to vaguely say Asha was abusive too. She was asked not to react to your stuff. But the Dr's proportions where un-balanced. I'm calling about 90-10. Correct. That's about what the balance of power has been in this relationship, about 90/10. Asha has been advised to take her power rather than give it all to you. Others may see it differently. I think the proportionizing of the relationship greatly contributed to it's failure. The failure Steve is with your difficulty in taking responsibility for yourself and accepting that others are the way they are, and doing all this with an attitude of love. You continually resort to cynicism. You sell out to anger to feel good momentarily. I'm sure as you typed this, you felt vindicated. That you "won." I wish it were that easy...  It's almost as if the "approach" itself, is "dysfunctional." Like someone in an abusive relationship developed it - BEFORE their relationship was healed. Or, it never was healed.

I must admit, I found the Dr's proportions offensive. At times I was angered by it. Of course! My comments were designed to help you stay within your own boundaries and control Steve. That would take away 40 points of your power (to be hopefully taken by it's rightful owner, Asha). Nobody "likes" that, at least initially. I'm sure some of my anger was "insecurity"-based. So I had to look at my insecurities. Finding the usual ones was easy. Finding the deeper ones was hard. Very hard. Of course... It took a long time. Then, one day, it came to me. I was watching the dissipation of my relationship. I was asking why? I realized how much "I" had been helped by some of the doctors advice to "me". But then I asked, "OK, now how much has 'my relationship' been helped - or harmed." The relationship won't be helped with one round of this stuff. What's going on now is "normal." That is, you tried it, experienced some initial benefit, found the going tough, and threw in the towel. The relationship won't be helped until you learn to throw in the towel less and less and bounce back from what you perceive as "losses".  Right now, you have reverted to your original style where you are trying to protect yourself. But, you don't realize that you are only protecting your ego and not your Self! In other words, this type of thinking and behavior will not help your integrity Steve. It will give you a semblance of feel good for the moment. You have sold yourSelf out. There is no lasting sense of inner peace and integrity associated with such. 

And, Steve, you are not alone. This is exactly why it is so difficult to effect change in the person who has the power! Kind of like not wanting to give up getting all the chocolates, but, getting fat if you give into the temptation. You would be likely to feel better about yourself if you did not overindulge.

I know this type of talk worries people here and they think I'm running from something or afraid to admit I am wrong or whatever. But I really need to say my peace. And that's fine. I can't help you if you don't speak your peace. 

I am also privy to the observation of a good friends marriage on the rocks. We talk a lot. We are helping each other. I have relayed many of the good things I've found on this board to him and he is very open to it.

[Before I go further I want to insert an observation on Name's last poem: I could have written it referring to HER. I say I "could have". But I would then be making the same mistake, which is to say - it's all her fault. Which I know is not true.]

Excuse me, to continue with my thread...

What my friend and I realized is, yes, learning self-awareness is great. Absolutely a necessity for a happier healthier life. We then observed in both our cases that, while we were "admitting our sins" of hurt against our partners, our partners were now honing in on our sins, and almost completely forgetting to look at themselves. Correct. This is a pitfall and is why you see me "blue penciling" the "disempowered" one (Gee, I like that much better than "victim.") New words: "Negatively Empowered One" NEO and "Negatively Disempowered One NDO." Our sins were so bright and colorful - and admitted -, that they found themselves completely absorbed in looking at what they needed "us" to change about "ourselves", and couldn't seem to see much that needed work on their side of the relativity equation. Correct. That's when the therapist has to help the NDO curb their control tendencies. When they are out of their boundaries. That process is very clear particularly with Lynn.

My friend showed me some papers that his wife had given him, she had gotten them from a "Family Violence Center". His wife had highlighted many of the things she felt he had been doing that were abusive. As I was reading these things, I was incredulously looking at my friend and remarking - "I've seen her do that to you". And "Name does that to me." This isn't to say we weren't also noting the things we were responsible for. We were. Correct. More confirmation: I am currently working with a self-proclaimed former NEO whose wife still cries "Abuse" and regards The Verbally Abusive Relationship as her Bible. Talk about abuse of power! It's very clear to me who is the NDO and NEO in this relationship at this time. Another current couple, a victim of physical abuse, is so angry at her husband, he can do nothing right. Damed if he does, damned if he doesn't. I just told her that if she keeps this up, I am going to ask him why he is putting up with her abuse... Which is exactly what it is, and which I've told both of them. But, this does not get him off the hook. He "loses" it and mistreats her too. It works both ways Steve.

So, yes Steve, that is a pitfall and Asha has been doing a bit of that, but not terribly much (she can be controlling), at least in terms of the info I can get in writing. BOTH of you have a poor sense of what your boundaries are. You tend to walk into each other's space way too often. These boundary infractions may occur many, many times in one very short conversation. They are momentary, yet extremely significant and affect your interaction. Yet, the only way to "fix" this is by each partner fixing their own.

What I'm trying to say in a long way, is that, it really takes two to make a relationship. Not one. It's been said many times before, but I never realized how significant it really can be. Then, you haven't been reading the site carefully enough.

I believe Dr Irene has un-wittlying missed this. I don't know why. I think her approach is going to turn-off many men. I am sometimes turned-off by it. Of course I have found much value in lots of her observations, but the overall approach seems to be wrong. In my opinion, it may actually damage relationships. Yes, if you give up prematurely.

I can almost hear the Dr's resistance to these thoughts of mine - that's ok. It is sometimes hard for me to say what I feel without being thought of as "running" or "smart" or "devious at twisting things". I have to accept that. But as I said earlier, I need to speak my peace. Does this make more sense to you now?

For you men out there...I must tell you that the Dr's approach has failed for my relationship. I will be blamed for it. The Dr's "approach" will likely remain un-challenged by any but me. I still walk away with a great deal of learning, which I thank the Dr - and others here - for. But my relationship is dead, because it was approached only on one side. 2-dimensional instead of the 3 that exist in a relative universe. The Z-plane is the one that gives us depth, yet it is also the scariest to walk through, and the last to be acknowledged.

Perhaps there is a fear of admitting that women can be just as abusive as men. I'm not entirely sure. They absolutely can be!

But in cases like mine, (where I truly KNOW I too have been abused) You have been, but not the way you have abused. It's different. , where the focus goes on me, instead of the relativity in the relationship, the doom is in the air. I think it will be that way for all of us. Until we can reach a place where the relativity is examined, instead of the blame assigned, I think most men are going to be disappointed. In the end, so will some of the women here. A chance has been wasted. It won't come again.

1/2 goes like this: The one labeled "the abuser" may get very defensive if he/she is singled out after their admission. You could lose them completely. Especially if they had assumed that both parties were going to work on their parts in the relationship. Right. That's why I hate those words, but have been having a hard time finding others.

At the same time, the other 1/2 goes like this: "There you have it. They admitted it, let's work on them now. I am ok. They are responsible for how I treat them." Once my "abusers" get into the right frame of mind, I teach them to take their tail out from  between their legs and take their (appropriate) power. The wives are not thrilled, by the way and often feel alienated by me, but, it is just part of the process. Then, and only then, do couples get to live happily ever after... See Steve: you threw in the towel WAY too quickly. 

It just won't work if you give up.

I believe I passed a big test when I admitted my part. I felt alone though. No admission from the other side of the relativity equation was forthcoming. Either from the Dr, or Asha herself. (These are my observations only). There were quite a few others here who seemed to see it, (in fact they brought it to light for me) and gave very good advice. But it didn't go anywhere. The advice was heard by me, but I don't think Asha heard it. She may have thought the advice was only for me. You know Steve, things aren't always "even." But, you expect them to be. Don't. OK, I'm done with this one. I'd like to hear your comments Steve. Dr. Irene

Anyway, I believe that Asha has have been "enabled", by the Dr, to miss the whole relativity thing. I know she won't understand this. I know I'll be seen as running or angry or defensive - or "Don't you think I can think for myself?". That's ok. It's the end anyways. But for others out there, men and women, perhaps my failed relationship can be a sign, warning, lesson, whatever.

I believe our relationship would have made it beautifully (because I believe Name and I are very good people at heart, and actually very compatible) if a more 3-dimensional approach, one that includes relativity, had been taken.

If anyone can understand what I mean, I hope it helps them.

I don't think Name will understand. I think the pattern of this "therapy" has been long-since established. I feel, in her mind, if I challenge something the Dr has put forth, which Name agrees with, I am just "in denial, running, and all that stuff".

I want you all to know, especially Name, that I could have spent a lifetime with her. I did see great possibilities for happiness and fun. But it can't happen, because the focus is too narrow. It's like looking at 2 ants fighting, under a magnifying glass, and you are trying to find out why they are fighting. You zoom in on one ant, because he admitted his part. So you have a crime, and a criminal. If one is guilty for the crime, case-closed. There never was an accomplice, there never was a case of self-defense. No need to look at the other ant.

There never was any "relativity".

I have to ask myself, what good would it be, if I am working on my anger, my button-pushing etc, if my partner is not working on hers? Would I be happy? Would I feel secure in the relationship? Would I TRUST her? That was a big one for me. I needed to know that my partner acknowledged her part in the equation. In my opinion, she did not. And I think the Dr enabled her by keeping the focus on me instead of the relativity in the relationship. I'm not sure Irene was even aware of this happening because she was quite busy just keeping up. Maybe she won't see it this way anyway.

I had to face, that I would never be happy living that way. I want to love and trust. If I can't do both, I'm wasting my time and hers.

I do find it disappointing, that my observations will likely become "steve running, steve twisting, Steve denying etc etc."

But I've said my peace. And I feel at peace.

Name said "But no-one told me just how many verbal and emotional strikes were acceptable. I've just hit the limit. My compassion for you has been my weakness. "

We've both hit the limit on abuse Name. This is my theory at work. Back and forth. But I won't say my compassion for you has been my weakness. Instead, I say, my love for you has been my strength. I will always know how much I loved you. And I will always know how much you loved me. You are a wonderful person with unlimited potential.

There was no wasted time. I take that back. I am lucky (and thankful) to have met you.

Love to all.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000

S1

Hello Everyone...Suzy here. I find every ones comments quite interesting. To all those who are sick, feel better soon. To comment on Steve's last message... it's like witnesses to a car wreck, if there are 5 people who witness a car wreck, all have a slightly different story to tell all based on the view of the wreck because of the location and position they were in at the time of the wreck. All of their stories are true because of their perception or reality at the time of the wreck, there is not one true and right answer, for all are correct. I guess what I'm trying to say is....every single person in this life has been abused at one time or another, and every single person in this world has been an abuser at some time or another. It is really, how often we do it, and whether we recognize that we have hurt another person and what we are going to do to make amends. I think a true abuser is one who does it over and over and over and rarely recognizes he (or she) is hurting another, or is a master on being able to turn it around on the other person, to make him (or her)self feel better. I think it gives them a sick sense of control, and making him (or her) self feel better. We can only control one person, ourself, when we try and control another, we will be sorely disappointed for they will never "measure up". There are no "winners" in a couples relationship where abuse is involved. There is no level of measure of who is hurting worse. Where you must look is into your own heart, if you are hurting all the time when you are with a "loved one", then something is wrong and something must be done (ie: counseling, change, leave etc.). If someone is dying, they must do something to cope or leave. Sometimes it's a matter of life and death, even if it is a dying bleeding heart, that no one can see, except yourself and God. There are really no sides to be taken, except your own. I believe this web site is not partial to women, for it has a lot of good articles/books/advice for men as well. Yes, we're all guilty of abuse to some degree, however, some of us, like me, do need support to get through another day and cope and live. I do not feel that this is a male "bashing" site. It is a place to come, be safe, give our opinion, get support and love, something that is very hard to come by when you have been very badly abused. This site is a "God-Send" to me and God bless you all for helping me and God bless Dr. Irene to have the guts to start this much needed site. We are all human, we all need each other, we are all children of God (both male and female) and we need not knock our friends for trying to help and be there. None of us have all the answers, but maybe, just maybe, we can all bring knowledge and experiences to the table to help. Please don't put down the Dr. or the site or women who desperately need one another, we're all doing the best we can. I say follow your heart and do what is best for you, follow , also, your head and be smart and safe. This is a place to find guidance and support and people who have "been there" and care. I love all you are doing...keep up the great work!!!! Suzy Thank you Suzy.

P.S. for Jay....I whole heartedly agree...leaders in religion need some sort of guidebook...I'm so sick of hearing..."Well, he didn't hit you did he?...you must stay then, it's the "right" thing to do, don't leave until he hits you." Ugh!! I love my faith, but some of the male leaders need some knowledge, they are so ignorant. Feel better soon, and best of luck Becky!

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000

S1

Suzy - you made some excellent observations.

I feel you've misread me somehow in there though.

"Please don't put down the Dr. or the site or women who desperately need one another, we're all doing the best we can. "

I do not put down the Dr. or the site or women. I call it as I see it. But you bash me in the process. Don't confuse calling it as you see it with attack; I think you have. The Dr has been good for "me", but the approach to relationships has not been good for my relationship. That's how I see it. 

I don't know where you got the idea that I put down women who desperately need one another? I don't think anyone here would agree with you on that item. I sure don't recall doing that. I think that happens Steve because you make put downs without even realizing you are doing it.

However, I detect (correct me if I'm mistaken) that you assume I believe this is a male-bashing site.

I've noticed a little male-bashing. But I accept that there are angry and disappointed women here and I don't mind them male-bashing one bit. Bashing may be a strong word. We all have opinions on the 2 sexes in general. But I still think it comes down to individuals. Sure, we both are influenced by our hormones to some degree, that's part of what makes us different. Testosterone is a fact of life for us men, just as the hormones that flow thru a woman's body are a fact for them.

We seem (both sexes) to spend a lot of energy trying to detach from our hormones. Maybe that's the wrong thing to do. Maybe we should celebrate our hormones?

Anyway, I don't feel you were correct in your assumptions about me. But I respect your opinions.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Steve

Please call me Asha.

I find your calling me by another name disrespectful. Exactly.

It's also a waste of Dr. I's time to have to go back in and change it all. That's my line and please don't "protect" me, though I appreciate your thought.

***

Here's my life philosophy in a few words: Live out of love and not out of fear.

I believe (my personal philosophy) that at the end of one's life the actions we take and the ripple effect they have (positive or negative) are 'replayed' for us and we get to experience them first hand. True or not true, I choose to believe this so that I will lead a life where I feel responsible for my actions and how they impact others. I can't control the reactions or feelings of others, but I can be responsible for my own.

I know what is true and real for me, and I believe that God also knows. This will, I hope, keep me strong throughout my life.

I know that I have work to do on myself. The fear comes up and the instinct is to react to the fear. Sometimes it is hard to see love in every situation. But as humans we have a choice. I'm not perfect, but I do try to live by my philosophies. I also believe that when I realize I've made a mistake, if I am able to, it serves me best to go back and fix it. I'm not a saint. I don't do everything right. I'm working on it. I try to live by my convictions. I do my best.

But my recent anger and upset are not based in malevolence - they come from become called "spoiled, abusive, anti-Christian" being told that I "LIE", that you don't trust me with your kids, and from your most recent email to me which states "You are so evil." I think that what you see as my 'abusive tendencies' are naturally upset reactions. When I express my feelings/opinions (which don't always support your opinions, or advocate your words or actions) you see 'tit for tat'. But there would only be 'tit for tat' if my intention was to 'get back' at you somehow. It is not. You see malevolence in what I say or how I act towards you where there is none. Anger - yes! Naturally I am angry when someone that I trust and care about tells me I am the above things. I don't let it turn into rage, but being treated this way is unacceptable to me, and shutting off my feelings about it would be lying to myself. The feelings are saying, Asha this is harmful to you - do something! I also ask myself, are my feelings proportionate to what actually took place? In the above case - yes! Yes...

I am not absorbed in whether 'you change you' or not. I simply know that I cannot have a relationship with anyone who distrusts me as much as you do. Whether you are happy, can trust your mate, feel secure etc. are decisions only you can make. I only know that I can't be with someone who feels as unsafe with me as you do.

<<<I want to love and trust. If I can't do both, I'm wasting my time and hers.>>>

Right. Without love and trust, you are wasting your time.

I know deep down that I am loveable, trustable and would be a wonderful mom or step mom if I had the opportunity.

But you have a "feeling of distrust or danger when it comes to her interacting with my kids". I don't warrant this sort of distrust. I have a lot to give, and I can put my energy into those who do trust me and know that I'm a caring, loving human being.

I don't want to be given ultimatums to apologize for what I feel. What I feel is perfectly okay, and a perfectly natural reaction. Yes.

I won't live in a state of anger, but I do need time to heal from hurt that I feel from the statements you've made about me. The feeling of hurt, anger etc. is as natural a reaction as the pain I would feel having my hand on a hot stove. How I *behave* as a result of that feeling is indeed my choice. My choice is to distance myself, to remain neutral towards you, and yes the anger seeps in sometimes. But I don't fire off emails to you that say "you are so evil - goodbye forever" even if momentarily that's what I feel. I resist doing this. I stop myself from acting on this kind of feeling.

Feeling hurt, angry, upset is not abuse. No, but put downs or yelling, for example, don't work. You are much better off and informative if you communicate your concerns calmly and specifically. Your partner may even hear them. Nor is it even malevolent - it's just a bad feeling that will pass. I suppose Jesus or Buddha would be able to suspend all anger and react with love to all people. But I don't suppose either would enjoy being called names. I don't think either would 'apologize' for expressing what they felt or thought.

I know that I could be in a relationship where my behavior was not considered abusive. I know that in my other close relationships I was not considered "abusive". You are not "abusive" per se. You have reacted to Steve and become angry, upset, etc. when the optimal reaction would be along the lines of ignoring his misbehavior or merely pointing it out. From time to time you have tried to control his behavior out of your great desire to help him fix himself, so he can be your partner. I know you love him. No need to prove this anyway. I know what I am inside. Do I sometimes do abusive things? Of course. Does anyone *not* do abusive things at times? Of course! Maybe Jesus or Buddha. Doesn't mean I'm anywhere near perfect. I never said I was (and I don't believe I'd be here if I was anyway). I will admit to abuse that I know I have partaken in. If you interpret something as abuse, and my intentions were in no way malevolent, it's not abuse in my book. Abuse insinuates intent. No. Because Steve does not intend to hurt you, even though he does. He is simply protecting his ego. Feels like life and death to him. Have you noticed that Steve does not realize that his editorial re: my methods was an attack of them. This is simply the difficult "baseline" Steve regards as "normal."  Maybe there are cases of unintentional amoral behavior, but I don't think my actions fall into this category. You "feel" abused, but I didn't *intend* to abuse. Here is where you get yourself into trouble Asha. You interpret Steve's behavior, when you are not in a position to. Try to understand the anger slips away from him. I don't think he sets out to hurt you.

I want a mate who doesn't *need* me to be perfect. That finds it's okay for me to occasionally be disgruntled, even pissed off at them. That's okay! That's human! I am *not* Jesus or Buddha. I am human. I have faults, weaknesses. That's the whole point! Yes...

<<<I was watching the dissipation of my relationship. I was asking why? I realized how much "I" had been helped by some of the doctors advice to "me". But then I asked, "OK, now how much has 'my relationship' been helped - or harmed." >>>

Steve, I think you were expecting it to turn around way too quickly. Exactly. Nor, do I think Steve has a grasp of how many of these turning-around experiences he needs - in many areas. The entirely of his underlying, implicit thinking needs a change of emphasis or interpretation. And, he needs to become more comfortable with his own faults, not see fault as "weakness," deserving of contempt. He's very, very hard on himself. Ouchhh!. I have hurts that never had a chance to get healed and now there are additional ones. These things take a great deal of time. The parts of me that felt "harmed" happened to me before I ever found this site. I believe you have been harmed also. But I think this harm took place way before you ever met me. Again, I'm not saying I've been perfect, but I don't see things like picking out a restaurant you don't like as 'abuse'. And yes, I've blown up, gotten angry, told you to "F" off even. This is the type of junk you want to strive to stop. Still it didn't warrant the kind of distrust you have in me. 100% correct. Steve's distrust is not from you. He did not learn to trust in childhood. Not only doesn't he trust others, especially those others close to his heart, he doesn't trust himself. He does not know that he can control himself in any given situation... My long post on Thursday didn't IMO warrant an ultimatum from you or an apology. This is the sort of thing you interpret as abuse, but it's not malevolent. i.e. my intention was not to hurt you. My intention was to get to the source of the things that felt yukky to me and concerned me most. You added in your mind whatever you added to make it into "abuse".

It's not my goal to push your buttons Steve, nor am I interested in avoiding all your buttons. I am responsible for my own buttons, that's where my responsibility ends. Yes.

By the way Steve, I don't "blame" you for anything.  I have free will too. I chose to be with you - that was my responsibility alone. Women and men can both be abusive. That's never been an issue on this website either. Steve blames me too Asha. According to Steve, my methods don't work and in fact, have made Steve's relationship worse. Notice that Steve does not take responsibility, but tries to put it on me and my methods, and then goes on to say that I did not mess him up on purpose, but I was just missing relativity. Note that I am held responsible for the outcome of his life (which I can never be) - even when he hasn't stayed with the program!

If you are at peace with your current way of seeing things, so be it. However it would never bring me the happiness, peace or safety I seek, so I must leave you to walk your path without me.

I wish you well - as always, peace, love, enlightenment, and trust. And I wish you both same.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

It's not disrespectful to call you Name. That's your opinion. But if it bothers you so much, I won't. You have no concept of boundaries Steve if you think using her name is not disrespectful when she has chosen not to use it. Asha is the only one who has the right to call herself whatever she calls herself. Your anger just slipped away from you again when you used her name in opening this reply. That was another stab, intended or not.

Asha: "But I don't fire off emails to you that say "you are so evil - goodbye forever" even if momentarily that's what I feel. I resist doing this. I stop myself from acting on this kind of feeling."

Am I not allowed to be as angry as you when I feel hurt or abused?

Have I ever said "I want to kill you!? No. You said that. I can smile about it now, but at the time, I was a little bit scared. I don't think you refrain from this behaviour any more than I do.

We both do it Asha. If only you could see it.

Asha: "I don't let it turn into rage"

Honestly Asha, have you never let it turn into rage? Steve, you are comparing apples and oranges. Your baseline anger level is much higher than Asha's and that baseline is evident in your posts. Please see this, for your own sake.. (Note how I too call things how I see them - without attacking or insulting you in the process?)

Why do you feel the need to show me as being a certain way?  I think that's something that hurts me (or I have allowed to hurt me). Your responses always seem to have some sort of added "Steve did this before, Steve once did that, or Steve whatever". Feels a lot like mud-slinging to me. She should instead be talking about her own experience, you are correct, and less about you. But, it is not mud-slinging. This does hurt me. But it's my problem. I guess I wish we could've gotten past this. The way to get past your feeling of mud-slinging Steve is for you to pull in that button that prompts you to feel hurt every time Asha criticizes a  behavior of yours. While, I ask Asha to focus on herself and not on you, my request is not for your sake, though it will benefit you. It is in her interests to focus on her own stuff, just as it is in yours to focus on your stuff. I guess there is no relativity here. This is what I mean about all the relativity. It really does feel like "tit for tat" to me. You make it that Steve. You engage in tit for tat more than she does! I wish I could help you see that. I feel that you are bringing out the artillery again. It doesn't feel constructive, it feels destructive. Like bombing the bridge after it's already been burnt.  YOU are bringing out the artillery my friend. You create your life; you create your experience. 

You've said some things that you KNOW are going to irritate me. Then I get angry and say some things that I KNOW are going to irritate you. The relativity again. Bouncing bouncing forever back and forth. Yes. 

"But my recent anger and upset are not based in malevolence - they come from become called "spoiled, abusive, anti-Christian" being told that I "LIE", that you don't trust me with your kids"

But this is what I feel Asha. That's all. Look at how your anger slips away from you Steve. Look at your words! You are using global character assassination! There is a difference between calling someone "spoiled, abusive, anti-Christian" and telling them that when they did such and such, you felt such and such. Name calling is abusive and you don't even see it!  Unless, it is done to you. Then, you are extremely sensitive. Ever ask yourself why? Because you do it to yourself internally day in and day out and don't see that you do it. You do it to yourself and it feels "normal". You do it to Asha, and it feels "normal."  But, because you do it so much, you are extremely sensitive to it when someone does it to you! I am asking you to stop doing it to yourself! (That's how to stop doing it to others, by the way.) 

Asha :"I know that I could be in a relationship where my behavior was not considered abusive. I know that in my other close relationships I was not considered "abusive"."

But you are (were) in this relationship. Because she allowed herself to be provoked by you and to react to you. The only partner who would not eventually react with anger towards you - because you give so much of it out - can only exist in your imagination. You bring anger with you Steve everywhere you go. Like a curse Steve, anger will eventually invade each and every relationship in your life - until you put an end to it. Your other ones are your other ones. I wasn't there, I haven't talked to your X's nor do I wish to. As you said, you know how you were. But you are here now. I know you have been abusive towards me. I know I have been so towards you. But the only way to change it is to admit it. If you keep feeling you are not abusive, you cannot change it. That's why I feel like I can't have the trust in you I long for so much. Trust begets trust Steve. Asha knows how to trust. You don't. Sorry. It is simply true. You never learned how to trust and you will not be able to trust - until you can trust yourself. And you will not trust yourself until you know you have control over yourself. Which you don't have now because you are run by your emotion.  Gotta go. Will be back.

Asha: "I want a mate who doesn't *need* me to be perfect. That finds it's okay for me to occasionally be disgruntled, even pissed off at them. That's okay! That's human! I am *not* Jesus or Buddha. I am human. I have faults, weaknesses. That's the whole point! "

I don't need you to be perfect Asha. You should know that.

Asha: "My long post on Thursday didn't IMO warrant an ultimatum from you or an apology. This is the sort of thing you interpret as abuse, but it's not malevolent. i.e. my intention was not to hurt you. My intention was to get to the source of the things that felt yukky to me and concerned me most. You added in your mind whatever you added to make it into "abuse". I'm back. Steve, I know you did not intend to hurt her, but you don't recognize your anger. That's why you DO hurt her. Think: you are not slamming the site; but you are. You are not hurting Asha; but you are.

Well that post made me feel extremely yukky. There are ways of making your point without using a nuclear weapon. And again, it brings back the relativity issue. What you posted (and you know it better than anyone) was in no way going to help you get at any source of anything. This is what feels so impossible to me. You cannot say you're sorry, because you aren't. Because you don't believe you did anything to intentionally hurt me. And if you really don't believe you did, then of course I'm scared. I'm very scared of what else you could do to hurt me, without believing/realizing you are doing anything... Oh, knock it off. She's wrong in assuming you are out to intentionally hurt her. That's all. Don't blow it up; it's big enough.

That's what feels so yukky and unhealthy to me. It creates this fear of the unknown. I really don't know what you believe. I hear what you say, but it doesn't ring true to me. 

But, despite all this fear and suffering, I love you. Because I know, at the very core level, you are sincere in your wishes for peace and love. I can read that in you even when you are yelling at me. Now we're talking.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

The written word, without the adornments of tone of voice and body language:

Steve: "But, despite all this fear and suffering, I love you. Because I know, at the very core level, you are sincere in your wishes for peace and love. I can read that in you even when you are yelling at me."

I reread this, and realized how a misconception could occur. Others may think I am being passive-aggressive with the last sentence. No, at least I didn't. I thought that was a wonderful ending.

I'm not. What I mean to say is, that even when Asha is very very angry with me, deep inside her core, the wonderful angel is still there. I meant to be very honest. And what I mean to say is that even when Steve is very very angry with Asha, deep down inside his core, the wonderful angel is still there. The Self. 

Just wanted to clarify that. :)

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Yes, Steve

A couple of years ago I said "I want to kill you" and that *was* abusive. I've said that already on this site. This after saying I didn't want to talk and you running up the stairs after me anyway. I didn't want to talk about it because I knew I would get irrational. But regardless of that, it wasn't right. I'm *not* perfect! Sure, I can be abusive. I acknowledged it to you, and apologized for it. That happened a couple of years ago. And there were lots of other things I was angry about and have been passive-aggressive about. But somehow you need this abusive stuff to be 'even'. I don't feel it is. I do believe you were the perpetrator far more often, whether you are conscious of this or not. Correct. 

My anger has been about choices *I* have made. Yes, I've been mad at you, but you are what you are, take it or leave it. It's my choice and *my* responsibility to accept or refuse the things in my life I have choices about.

<<<It's not disrespectful to call you ****. That's you're opinion. But if it bothers you so much, I wont. >>>

Pardon my French, but this is BS. You chose to call me Asha all the other times. The point, Asha, is that what you choose to call yourself on a site where you are concerned with anonymity is strictly YOUR business. Others need to respect those boundaries.

<<<Am I not allowed to be as angry as you when I feel hurt or abused?>>>

Yes. But when you act on it by sending that kind of email you cause damage, sometimes irreparable damage, as in this case. Right. This would not have happened if self-control had intervened.

<<<Asha: "I don't let it turn into rage" Honestly Asha, have you never let it turn into rage? >>>

I have felt rageful sometimes. But I very rarely act on that feeling because I know I would cause damage. Correct. ALL of us have the potential for rageful behavior. It's not how you feel that counts, it's what you do with your feelings. (Self-control; self-mastry.)

I know you feel it's all 'tit for tat' stuff. All I know is when I'm hurting and I express that hurt, you react negatively. I don't spend the time and energy thinking of what you are going to feel in reaction to my hurt. I just wanted to get to the root of the hurt, and the current issues, as I see them. You then see it as 'tit for tat' and nothing gets solved. The issues don't get dealt with and then I'm still hurt and in addition you're giving me an ultimatum and demanding an apology.

<<<"But my recent anger and upset are not based in malevolence - they come from become called "spoiled, abusive, anti-Christian" being told that I "LIE", that you don't trust me with your kids"

But this is what I feel Asha. That's all. >>> 

I know. I can't have someone who feels that way as a life partner. I believe that love and trust go hand in hand. No Asha, not always, though in mature love, they do. Steve doesn't have the cognitive or communication skills yet that he needs to effectively convey his anger without bashing or slamming. He, I am sure, did not realize in the heat of the moment, that these were character assassinations. More reason to illustrate the importance of impulse control!

<<<If you keep feeling you are not abusive, you cannot change it. That's why I feel like I can't have the trust in you I long for so much.>>>

Steve - I feel you are, and have been, the primary abuser. Correct. I also don't think you are even remotely aware of it. He's probably somewhat aware, but not when he's being defensive. Right now I am very angry at you and that probably feels like 'abuse'. I've explained why I'm angry. I can't give you the kind of support you are looking for and you can't trust me because I honestly don't believe I am equally responsible for the abuse. You see it one way. I see it another. I can't change you. You can't change me.

<<<I don't need you to be perfect Asha. You should know that.>>> 

I feel that you do need me to be perfect, in the sense that you need me to agree with you or you feel I'm attacking you. Correct Steve. Asha has to watch out for your buttons to a much greater extent than you have to watch out for hers. That I'm not allowed to be upset with you without consequences. I need to know all your buttons and carefully avoid them, or there are nasty consequences. I don't think you are aware of this, by the way. I don't 'blame' you. I just can't live this way anymore.

<<<What you posted (and you know it better than anyone) was in no way going to help you get at any source of anything.>>>

I'm still not sure which part got you so upset. I feel it did get to the source, but wasn't looked at. Especially your ideas of the 'promotion' of the subject matter I mentioned. You've also called me anti-Christian stuff before. I feel that your distrust and our different perceptions of the world was our main problem. And I doubt you'll ever see it the way I do. I accept this, and I think we need to respect each other enough to follow our separate paths now. We've tried this long enough and it's not working. Sad...

<<<you don't believe you did anything to intentionally hurt me. And if you really don't believe you did, then of course I'm scared. I'm very scared of what else you could do to hurt me, without believing/realizing you are doing anything...>>>

Steve - I *didn't* do anything to intentionally hurt you. That's the honest truth. Correct. Neither did Steve. He hurts you when he "loses" it momentarily. I knew that you would not agree with or like a lot of what I said, but I felt you could handle it. You could look more closely at where your fear comes from, or just chalk it up to me and my distrustful ways. Either is fine with me at this point.

<<<I really don't know what you believe. I hear what you say, but it doesn't ring true to me.>>>

It's true.

And I do wish you peace and love. And I wish myself the same. This is too painful for me to keep repeating again and again and again. You see what you see. I see what I see. I know that seeing it your way isn't healthy for me. That's all. This is the ant fight that you see going on. I can't be what you want me to be Steve. I wish it could have been different. It's gone too ugly, for too long.

<<<<Steve: "But, despite all this fear and suffering, I love you. Because I know, at the very core level, you are sincere in your wishes for peace and love. I can read that in you even when you are yelling at me." I reread this, and realized how a misconception could occur. Others may think I am being passive-aggressive with the last sentence.>>>

I know you aren't being passive aggressive - you're seeing it how you see it and you mean well. Yes.

I'm the wonderful angel who also lies, is spoiled, evil, and can't be trusted with your children. Wow! (See why it's important to choose your words?)

Sometimes you think I'm wonderful, sometimes you think I'm evil. None of this has anything to do with me and who I really am. But I can't take the ups and downs.

I do wish you all good things. I am angry, but I have no malice towards you.

I just can't live like this anymore.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Asha, I am so tired of this constant calling me the primary abuser. And when I really think about it, I'm tired of Dr Irene doing the same. Sorry Steve. It is the truth. You have a self-absorbed core. Asha does not. Your personality style lends itself to my-way-or-no-way thinking. Look at you now: aren't you doing exactly that?

That's what I feel is the immense harm in the methodology. It allows one side to consistently rejoice in denial, while punishing the other with repetitive accusations. Wrong. You don't see it. I have no investment in backing either of you to the detriment of the other.

It won't work. It really won't. Be back again...

It isn't about who is the "baddest". Or is it? If so, then there'll be no healing here.

I grow more aware of this with each day. No one here will see it. They are on the other side of the fence. (Sorry I shouldn't say no-one, I mean very few.)

I am tired of being subjected to this.

Please, anyone who wishes, feel free to say "Steve, the primary abuser, is blah blah blah."

This doesn't feel like a place for healing relationships. It's a place to say terrible things about people.

I realize not everyone is using it for that, but some are.

I think you all would understand that, me being a male, and feeling almost absolutely zero support, wouldn't want to continue here any longer.

Bye Theressa, Jay, Asha, Astrid, Anne, Dan, Becky, AJ, and anyone I've missed. Especially you Lynn. You've warmed my heart many times when I thought it was just about frozen.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Dear Steve. I don't think we ever thought of this as a place to say terrible things about people. I think you are just really hurt and angry with Asha and that it is a shame you two have now got on such bad terms.

I wish Dan was around to help out with a male perspective.

The point about any relationship where there is abused is the one who is abused also ends up fighting back so the relationship itself is abusive and it takes two as they say to tango.

I thought maybe because I responded in an outward way I was the wrong one in my relationship then I realised how much I was set up to fail. How I could never get it right even when I tried as my partner was undermining every effort at peace. He knew the buttons to push and he pushed and pushed then he could say I was wrong. I was wrong to respond in ways I did and that wouldn't excuse it; but it is so easy to say it is the other person's fault.

Sometimes you have to take responsibility for what you could have walked away from or for engaging in destructive patterns.

Steve. It is disrespectful to call anyone by any name they don't want to be called by. I would be as upset as Asha about this. I am very careful not to identify my husband on this site as that would be abusive to him. I think I know how you felt as there are days i feel like maiming him out of a feeling that the guy needs to be shown for what he is. But you have to try not to respond to abuse with abuse so I don't.

Becky - Keep strong. You are early with your tree. I t made me want to put mine up but we don't do that for a while yet. It is always me and the kids who put the tree up. My husband never helps either - he disapproves of the whole thing. I loved it when the kids were young and they made things and I really miss that now. I'm trying to interest my son in making the cake but I don't think he would unless it was basketball shaped!

Suzy, the trouble is I lose it too....A long time ago there was a horrendous scene and still nobody in the church thought I should leave. An elder's wife even implied she couldn't know it happened as she wasn't there. I think she is one of those who does believe me now though. I lost the idea God would protect me from things long ago. If my faith was based on Jesus makes things o.k then I would have given up years ago. I wish the church wasn't so slow on the uptake.

Lynn and Dan are you back? Hugs to everyone (yes including you Steve as I think you will continue to read even if you don't post!). Off to the writer's group. Excited for the first time in over half a year! love Jay.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Dear Steve, dear dear Steve,

B. here.

Why does there have to be fault????

Why does there have to be one "right" side and one "wrong" side?

Why for heaven's sake can't you allow yourself to identify with Asha's poem and say that you actually feel the same, and see every word as also true for you????

Why not? I also identify with it (can't remember every word now, but I guess I do)!

ALL OF US can and SHOULD identify with any statement that helps us get rid of "engaging" and negativity and detachment from feeling - and embrace healthy ways of living.

Why do you see everything anybody says to you as an attack? It's so frustrating for me to read that. You feel so un loved, so mis-understood, so lonely, so abused, so accused, that it brings tears to my eyes.

But I also get so annoyed!!!! Can't you see we love you? Can't you see we are trying to help you by being your mirror, who tells you what you do and what you look like when you are blind and drowning in your pain and fear?

Did you read my posts about the monster? Did you get it at all that I, too, was HIDING MY FEELINGS from MYSELF (not to mention from others)? "Oh", I used to think, "I am not afraid". I am SOOOOO brave! "I am not angry, I 'UNDERSTAND'". Well, the f... with courage and brains and understanding.

Wake up Steve!

Love, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Dear Steve, I do say I am a newcomer to the site, so I cannot judge completely what has happened between you and Asha. Nor, is it my place to judge anyone. I just "observed" from your long letter and maybe, "misread" some of your intentions, for that I am truly sorry. And here comes the "however" part,.....you seem to talk to Asha like my husband Bruce talks to me and I find it very condescending (forgive me, I'm a rotten speller). I really would encourage you to stick with this site whether or not you stick with Asha. My husband is out of town on business for a couple of days more and he really is ready to visit this site and I believe he, and other male watchers, could be very much helped by your thoughts and opinions. There are days my husband (his name is Bruce), is so arrogant and rude and all of "Our" problems are "MY" problems, and other days he will be sorely saddened by what he has done to me and our family because of his angry past. He has admitted this to me. He is very intelligent, like you, and I feel he truly does care....I feel really bad for people who abuse, as somewhere in their past, they have been betrayed by a "loved" one who hurt them. I believe the anger of these past situations does rear its ugly head when we are in a very personal intimate relationship.

We have a natural tendency to protect ourselves from impending doom....It's almost like, "I'll hurt you first and best, so you can never hurt me like I was hurt in the past." But, this attitude kills the love and intimacy in the relationship before it even starts because you're always "on guard" and healthy love cannot flourish in that atmosphere. I do admire you for taking the time to use this site. I would like to ask you a question (please do not take it wrong or harshly, but I really would like to know.)...Do you use this site to truly help other men and women to help them in their relationships or, do you use this site to "get back" at Asha and "win" others your sympathies. I know that seems harsh to ask (especially since I don't know you well), however, maybe, it would be a really good thing to ask yourself and be honest about. I am an impartial observer but this is all I seem to see. Now, maybe, I have to admit in myself,( because of MY hurt in MY relationship), I see it a little bit more Asha's way, and not just because she is a lady. I hope I'm not chasing you away from this site, because I really think you could help a lot of people, both ladies and men. For you do bring a new and unique perspective and I would like you to post to my husband some time. I'm sorry your relationship has not worked out as planned, it's just the healing of the heart takes a very very very LONG time, and I see my Bruce being very impatient with that. Bruce says, "what is in the past is in the past, so get over it."..then ,if I bring it up again, he will shoot full force blast with his hurting words and find anything I've done in the recent past and call it "abuse" too,.....oh, how this hurts soooooo bad, as it diminishes my healing process. It is a terrible vicious circle that I really hate. I wish you a good day and pray you can understand where I'm coming from and look at my question objectively, for may be it would help me to understand where my Bruce comes from better. Thanks for listening, Suzy

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Hi All, B. here.

Becky, I hope everything turns out to be all right! One of the reasons I'm nursing for so long is, that I know it helps prevent breast cancer, and where I live every 8th woman gets it! My prayers are with you!

I open the catbox quite often and save for reading, but I don't find much time for it. Now I'm really stressed, with all my students' papers... I'll have to take a vacation from the cat box and I don't wanna...

In the meantime much love to all, Asha hang in there.

BTW, when my husband says something that sounds abusive (like: "stop worrying so much over nothing!" or "OK, I permit you to go topless" [at home]) I learned to re-phrase: "You want to say that my worry makes you feel helpless and guilty because you cannot help? Then tell me you are sorry you cannot help instead of being so mean to me!" or "What nonsense, you know it isn't your job to permit or not. I would much rather hear you say what you really mean, which is: 'I really like it when you go topless!'".

It works. He agrees, and anyway no fight, and we both feel good.

Love, B.

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Hi. Anne here

Well, I never got to read from the beginning like I said I wanted to. Ended up working on Saturday, then my best friend came down from Atlanta. I have, however, read some of the more recent posts.

Welcome, Suzy. I HEAR YOU!

Becky, I hope every thing turns out ok for you. I'll be praying for you.

Hello to you all!

Lynn, it turns out that we DO have a humane society in the county, but it's a HUGE county & the humane society is far enough away that it really does not do much good. I have found out who is on the board of directors, though, and am going to get in touch with them. I'm willing to do what it takes- this is an issue that I feel very strongly about. The town I went to college in had a spay-neuter (sorry again, Trubble grumble ) clinic that would perform the operations at a much lower cost than could be found elsewhere. They were an extension of the local humane society.

Steve & Asha, I wish I had some words for you, but my own situation is still so unclear to me that it would be wrong to state any opinion one way or the other. I must say, however, that I believe Dr. Irene tries (and is quite successful) to be fair, to not let people just say "horrible things about one another". She seems to be just as hard on the "victim's" misbehaving as on that of the "abuser". That said, you both seem like intelligent, caring people- and I wish the best for you both.

As for my own situation- a roller coaster ride if ever there was one, I have not a clue what the right thing is to do. There is so much room for error, and counseling is not an option right now (I have given him control of the money, even that which I earn, which is something I'd like to talk about BUT) I am afraid that, should he ever agree to come here, he would be angry about some of the things I have to say.  Deep breath. Yes, I know that sounds ridiculous. If he ever agreed to even look at this site, it would mean a great step forward had been taken, and that he was finally willing to do a little soul searching.

I thought I had been successful in getting him to stop calling me names. He likes to call me "freak" and say things like "You're Abby. Abby-NORMAL", etc. I don't know how all this started, but I have asked him many times to not do it. I have allowed it, actually bought into the idea that I am "weird", though in what way I could not tell you. When we first started seeing each other, he would jokingly call me a "freak" and though I did not like it, I would laugh & shrug it off. Didn't want to seem too sensitive, and since I HAD felt a little like a misfit my whole life, thought there might be some truth to the joke. Also, since he had called me that before without me complaining, it was hard to suddenly say I didn't like it & feel that I had a right to be taken seriously. The other night, I was on the phone with a girlfriend & I told her about a thanksgiving card we had received from the wife of one of our friends. He said "His wife is a freak" (he does not care for her at all), then followed it with "Like MY wife isn't", all this while I was still on the phone. I asked him why he said that, said that I did not like it. He just rolled his eyes and shook his head, acting as though I were being unreasonable.

I have tried to let him know when I feel he has behaved rudely toward me & he'll say something like "Well, I think you can be a f***ing bitch sometimes. How do you like THAT?" The truth is, I'm sure I CAN be a bitch sometimes. Anyone can. No one is exempt from occasional misbehaviors. UGHHH!

I have babbled long enough.

Thanks Doc, Trubble & everyone for being here. There is a people-humane society where I come from...  

-Anne

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Hi!

Just want to let you know that I have to have a third mammogram on Thursday. The person I talked to was uncertain as to why; she said they did the wrong area or something. Ack! Ack! Keep up posted Becky. Prayers and good wishes sent your way.

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Dear Cat Box,

Lynn here and we're back. Dog Trubble is in DaddyDan's chair and LOCO is on daddy's shoulders and God (or whomever) is in his Heaven and all is well. WE'RE HOME a yes I'm shouting. Good entrance and good exit, too. Went to breakfast with my dad and his lovely lady friend and first of all dad got into an Irish Catholic Democratic snit. Then he got not bullyish, but downright belligerent about the bill. In public, no less (I don't usually do this), he started in and I just said, "screw this crap" and then looked at Dan and said, "Get me outta here!" Two goods. I spoke up in public (that's why the 5 letter word) and Dan got me outta there. Often (as in always before) he's given some reason why I have to take this from other people. Then I start thinking the fault lies with me (which it doesn't) and then I'm mad at Dan, too. In this case I think I would have left him there with the lady friend who was crying at us not to leave her "like this" and to come tell her goodbye and talk about a bunch of cat litter, crying because she couldn't stand my dad like this either. (86 years ole, does this ever end???) What is she still doing with the bum? Her problem, right Trubble? And, BTW, DaddyDan likes LOCO better than he likes me, so don't feel bad.  At least were in the same cat box together.

Gotta go. Hi Suzy and Good Luck Becky. Adios Steve and I have a phone call.

Love to ALL, Lynn, who is becoming a Gypsy Orphan ^+^

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

HI all, Just typed a long post and lost it. Ah well.

Becky, I just read your post and started to wonder something else about the lack of support when we need it. Is your husband like mine, a perfectionist?

I get the feeling that I am only acceptable if I am perfect. I was o.k yesterday as I didn't say that much about being sick. When a few years ago I had to have a full body scan investigating for M.S and was really frightened I got no support whatsoever. It turned out to be a trapped nerve.

The moment I was signed off from depression as fit all the support stopped. Dead. Even though it was clear I was still struggling.

I once came round from a faint to be told 'you can't faint here!' No concern and no sympathy.

Lots of other examples. I am o.k to him when and only when I am doing what he approves of. Only I am no longer even sure what that is. I have a feeling that he would love me more if I rode a bike just because that is his chosen form of transport!

Come to think of it he did love me when I rode a bike! Now I don't. I lost my nerve. I am not so perfect.

Wierdly I have a feeling he is happier now I am not working and therefore not 'successful.' I am good at teaching adults and therefore must be able to communicate well. We have a problem with communication. Therefore I am o.k when I am not doing something which shows I have the ability to communicate. he liked me better as very shy which is what I used to be before I started to teach.

Ergo. He is threatened by success. To be perfect I should only be as he wants me to be. Illness is not an option.

You are right they ignore what is difficult for us in the hope it will go away and the 'perfect' wife will return.

I think I can live with my own imperfections.

What I can't bear to live with is this smoldering unacknowledged anger at my imperfections.

It is like a revenge being taken on me for being less than perfect.

Like being a cracked vase. Still useful but not for display.

He will not recognize failure in himself and just accept we all fail.

So he can't forgive failure in me.

Academically he has always got the best grade. At work he is the best in the firm. So to be thought not the absolute best husband must be very painful. After all, everyone likes the guy.

He was never taught to fail and think that it is o,k to fail. Like we all do as weak humans.

So that is why he must set out to prove I am mad and bad. I must be or he will not be perfect.

And I am the one person who sees his imperfections.

So I am dangerous and that is why the covert abuse happens.

I think.

I don't really know what I am trying to say here folks. Just trying to work my thinking through.

My husband tried the PMS track for a while. Actually in my case he may be right but he has conveniently forgotten this now. I think he forgets conveniently about the male menopause. Actually age wise he is about due for it so I wonder if this is why things are so bad at present..........

Of course we are 'emotionally unstable' and 'mad.' That means everything we think or say can be conveniently filed in the dustbin (garbage can). There is no need to hear.

Anne it's good to find your post.

Dear all.

I don't understand. Do you have a president or not and was it Bush? I heard it was and then something about more courts stuff. So does that mean Bush can go to the Whitehouse for now but Gore can push him out maybe? How long could that go on as Bush could then presumably challenge again..........

I think I am raising a son who will know how to treat women! When I told him I was off to the writer's group be gave me a huge hug and said "I knew when you stopped work you were still going to make something really good of yourself." It's only a class. But I just think he will make someone a really good husband some day!

Now if my husband would take lessons from my son......

More chance of Trubble taking lessons from a dog! I doubt that!  

Love, jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Dear Becky, I just read your post. Hope things are fond to be o.k at your next test. Thinking of you and sending you hugs and prayers.

dear Lynn. We missed you. What is the bill? You sound positive and strong. Love. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Dear Jay,

Here I go again. hehehe What is the bill? As in how much did it cost or huh? That's what a bill is. The check or tab or total that we pay to the cashier. So if that is what you meant, that's what a "bill" is.

Funny because we left my dad in the middle of a busy restaurant holding the bill. hehehe, again. Been here, done this so many times it doesn't count. I know the next scenario. $$$ for Christmas, then he calls my daughter and plays poor baby because her mother won't speak to him and then she calls Dan and the list goes on and on. Don't know if it's strong or just cranky. Dan and I had a very brief few words in the car. I thought he was following a truck pulling a backhoe too close and asked him to please back off. (We have had previous bad driving experiences, mine!) and he didn't so I just unbuckled my seat belt. Same O almost. Then he slows down to about 15 MPH and I guess was going to go the other extreme. I wasn't in the mood. PMS or what you will, I was on a roll I guess and just got in a groove and was going to keep going. Or grooving. Anyhow we talked it over and no biggie, thank goodness.

Hey Steve. Sorry about the caps. Got in a rush.

We have a blizzard blowing in and so I'll turn this over to Dan and go fix dinner (Omelets, Trubble. Coming?)

Prayers for Becky and Love a lots to all, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Dear Dr Irene, Trubble and the rest of the cat box family,

We made it back. Yippeee!  

I haven't read all of the posts so I won't be posting to anyone in particular.

Thanksgiving dinner at Lynn's sisters was nice, we arrived after everyone had had their dinner. But she did save us some which was nice of her. The days with the grandkids was great, loads of fun. The motel had a pool and they spent a lot of time there. The weather was fairly nice also, a bit brisk during the mornings and evenings bit no snow.

I had lunch with my High School Sweetheart while we were there and we talked about a lot of events which we have lived through since those days. I guess the things that I wanted to get off my chest with her was our splitting up, the way we did and some of the reasons for it. I also felt a relief because she doesn't feel any ill will toward me. I told her this and her reply was that, I had changed when I got back from Nam and that it just wasn't meant to be. She also expressed relief and was so glad that I had finally called her and we could get together. I am also. Lynn's quite a gal, no?

Lynn has posted about Her father and his behavior, I think, that the man thought that since we had gotten along the previous couple of days that we would overlook it. He made Lynn angry and I also got angry at him, because I felt that he was being unfair to the both of us. I didn't enjoy his attitude and can't believe (I guess I can) that I would always act as a peacekeeper with him and Lynn. I know that I won't do it again.

Our car broke down on the way home, the alternator, (it charges the battery) went out. At first I was kicking myself for not being a better mechanic, but then I said to myself, that's not your profession so how should you know what is wrong. I felt better after that, because I was beating myself for something which wasn't my fault. The pro knew what it was just listening to the car run.

One of the guys from work stopped by earlier and I have to work tomorrow, we get to play in the snow.

I know I said that I wasn't going to post to anyone in particular but

Trubble,

When you decided to enjoy the Egyptian treatment, it was very nice of that person to do this for you. If I had found you eating at the hatchery you would have been grounded for a lot longer than you are now. And now your breaking the computer because your hitting it to hard with your paw. I think for that you should get chicken and rice for 30 days. YukkyDaddyDaN. Fake Fake.  

Hugs

Dan

A PS from Lynn here. Don't ask Dan's opinion, but I'll bet he wishes Steve or anyone else had me from my birthday to the 1st of the year (hehehe from Dan right now). I loaded a bunch of tapes in the car before we left and sang Christmas Carols ALL the way. He finally bought me a Christmas tape there so he had one of his own to listen to....

If this has ever been a problem with Dan, it's his problem and he keeps it to himself. hohoho

Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 27, 2000

S1

Jay, You ask if my husband is a perfectionist. in my opinion yes--when it comes to everyone but himself. He expects a lot of others, but very little of himself. An example: he gets very irritated if someone leaves the kitchen light on, yet he does it all the time. He once got angry when my son washed his hands in the kitchen sink, later, my H washed his shoes there! He once told me that he couldn't trust me because instead of the spaghetti I had said I was making I made macaroni. (No, I'm not making this up)!

If I accuse him of breaking a promise, his solution is to say "Well, I won't make any more promises." I take this to mean that he doesn't want to be held accountable for what he says and does; he wants to do "whatever" and have me be okay with that. Yet he holds others to very strict standards.

I sometimes believe that he doesn't want me to be sick, or depressed, or otherwise in a "weakened" condition because that means that I need attention and/or consideration. He has often expressed resentment about my migraines and rough monthly periods--as though HE is being adversely affected! true, these things get in the way; for example, i don't like to travel during that time of the month because I am so miserable. But why can't