Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

Back to Catbox 9

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000
Time: 09:35 PM

Hi Gang, especially Everybody. Don't you all go nuts now. Mommy is going to go over Catbox 9. In fact she's doing that right now. No abandonment without notice! She wants all you guys to keep posting. And don't worry about her... I work for Trout! So, I'm around.

Mommy said that she wants to make this the board where husbands and wives can begin to come together. And be best the Human Cats, like me, they can be.

Love & purrs, Trubble

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000
Time: 09:53 PM

S1

Okay. I won't talk about what he said or what he did today. I will say that I am angry--very very angry and it really came out. I have ten years of pent up anger and some of it exploded today. Have you seen Forrest Gump? You know the scene where jenny throws rocks at the house where she lived with her abusive father? With all her might, she throws every rock she can get her hands on until she collapses in tears. Forrest says," Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks."

That's how I feel. I'm so angry, and I'm out of rocks. What do I do with the rest of my anger? I want to smash things, and I want to smash this person who is calling me things that I'm not, who is taking his anger at women out on me.

I understand that I need to channel the anger into something productive, and don't worry--I won't be stuck here, in a wheel spinning rage. But for now, this moment, I'm pummeling the air, striking out at the craziness, the injustice of it all. Yes, Steve, he is a tough nut to crack: he is so tough he's petrified! He does not want to feel anything, and above all, he doesn't want to feel responsible. So, he's cruel, hard and mean--and offended that I don't want to hug him!

B., what do you teach? I teach developmental English at the community college level. I enjoy it a lot, but oh my! So I won't go crazy, I've started teaching The Great Gatsby in my Reading Comp. class. They complain at first, but begin to get into it and end up enjoying it. Doing this not only presents them with a challenge that they can feel good about meeting, it helps me keep the gears in my brain from rusting! I also sneak some linguistics into the Phonics (vocab, spelling, basic reading comp) class.

I'm going to go take a deep breath, try to relax, and read a bit in Steve Martin's new book Shopgirl. Love him!

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000
Time: 10:36 PM

S1

Dear Cat Box group,

Lynn here and freezing. Cold, windy and blowing and brrrrr. Steve, Dan can think right now, just not on the web. He's stationed about 4 hours from here living in a cabin with a cell phone. He won't be home for another week. So that might be why I've taken some liberties here. I do love your 100% solution. Why not. What is there to lose? And I've done some thinking, too. Dan and I had five really good years. Dan and I had 5 really not so good years. I've been going back (with all of your help) and trying to figure where and when I changed. Maybe if I change some of it back, at least bend a little, things might get more positive here at the home front.

That's where I am now. We talked again tonight, but just for a minute. No time for any thing like engaging.

Jay, there was a time when I'd post and it would go to limbo, then I'd post, go check and it was on the board. Go back and it was gone. I've read posts that disappear. I lie to think of this as the higher power of the cat box. It takes on a life of it's own at times. Then Asha and I were posting at the wrong sites and it got quite interesting. Kept us on our toes.

B, I wish we all were able to sit down and talk to our mates and say here's what I'd like and the other way around and reach a compromise. It gets so complicated, doesn't it. One request can get blown out of proportion and then it seems to snowball. That's why I wish the guys would post. I thought Dan and I were doing pretty good until he quit posting and reading and then he left town. When he posted though and I did, it seems we could hear whatever the other was saying. Once we went back to the one on one we got engagey again.

Anyhow, I have to go and do some more of my laundry and maybe eat some Trout thing. I love you all and send lots of hugs your way.

(((Hugs & Love)))

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000
Time: 10:38 PM

S1

Dear Becky,

Sorry, I didn't see your post. I'll go read and get back to you. Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000
Time: 11:22 PM

S1

Dear Becky,

Lynn again and GOOD for you! It's about time you got angry. I think it's great. I'll bet you are even feeling better for getting some of it out. Nothing wrong with good healthy honest anger. I've thought all along that you should be angry. I think you have every right to be. And no, I didn't see Forest Gump, but I hear ya' about the rocks.

Keep up the good work and if you need a cheerleader, I'm on your team!

Love The Great Gatsby and Dan and I rented the movie again a few months ago and re watched it. I like the Fitzgerald Bio's, too. Quite an interesting guy (and wife).

My granddaughter learned phonics and she was about 4 and spelled lobster for me ...lopsdr. I sill have the note paper she wrote it on. Sounds like things are going good at work at least.

Take care of yourself, enjoy your anger and if I could send you some more rocks, I would.

(((Hugs))) and Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 03:36 AM

S1

Hi, everyone.

Theressa 100dolars is £70 so as far as I can work it out 25 dollars is 70 divided by 4 on the current exchange rate which is under £20.

So now we know where Dr Irene went! I don't blame her as I know how hard it is when you start something and end up doing a whole lot of work for free and then it escalates. I did this with my teaching for a long while and then I started saying I would only do things for what I am worth.

Becky - about the stones. I went to the beach once and threw stones into the sea for everything I felt angry at the time. It was good to be on the beach as it had an awful lot of stones and I needed a lot and t is write hard to stay mad after you have thrown a lot of stones. I kind of prays first and it was ever so therapeutic even if nothing I was angry about changed.

Sometimes to get the changes we need to be angry first and I know what you mean about the hugs. I think in the end, all we can do in the face of the kind of abuse we get is to ignore it and concentrate on becoming our own person and validating ourselves. I just can't if we don't both leave and go to live in the cat house, see another way.

Lynn, when I said minor physical abuse I was meaning grabbing my wrist and twisting a bowl out of my hand. What I don't understand is why I didn't let go of it when he started. I am not blaming myself for this ,just wondering why I am so willing a victim.

I did ring the police and would have gone to make a statement but then my daughter's problems distracted me and I was so worried about her that I forgot my own problems. I t was a really heavy day yesterday and I got a disappearing long post at midnight.

Got into a real guilt trip over my modeling of how men treat you. I have modeled letting men use you. I can't work out why I was the one she told but I got a 2 hour commentary on her love life in al the gory details and ended up saying "Hey you do know this is your mother you are telling." Somewhere I just haven't taught her to respect herself and I feel so bad about that.

Actually. Just to make anyone else who goes down the terrible I am a bad mother road. Dr Irene says 50% is hereditary and 50% is environment. So if both partners are equally responsible then that is 25% of the blame each and if you then deduct say 10% for al the things in the environment you couldn't have changed if you wanted to that leaves 7 1/2 per cent blame for each partner. Adding into this you didn't get it all wrong and so it must be less than 7 1/2 per cent it is better to do what you can to change and stop blaming yourself! If , of course you do agree it is 50% nature and 50% nurture.

Still feeling angry myself, but a bit less so than yesterday. Complete silence here except I just stopped my son posting on here. I usually ensure he can't see what I write.

Steve - Do you mean you think only men can be controlling. I sure live with a control freak but I see things about me that are controlling too.

Asha - you did a good job on Steve! Or rather you did things for yourself and he got he message!

If only my husband would post on this board Dr.Irene and Trubble. If only cats could fly. Only on the backs of brooms! I just don't think it will happen.

Love, and no Laundry. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 05:35 AM

S1

Hi All,

Hope you had a good weekend, it sounded busy from all your posts!!! and as I see some of you had tiresome weekends, SORRY!!!!

First I'll start with Lynn cuz I read her post first. Lynn, Constructively using your anger how? Well first you must hear the message, as you get the feeling of anger, what is it saying??? It is saying you are unhappy about something which just happened. So go off and cool off {Anger management} Then when you feel calm, [maybe you've gone to cool off by taking a shower or bath, or by meditating, or reading a book] Then you sit and observe, you looking at the options you have for controlling yourself. YOU might go and speak to Dan and say using "I", what you want [NOT what you don't want, your sub-conscious doesn't hear DON'T it only hears the key words, eg, What your gonna do, so if you say I don't want to eat, IT hears EAT, though if you say I am gonna read, IT hears READ etc] {NO!!!! blaming, or issuing blame, you did xxxx, or counterattacking, YOU DID X, YOU DID Y etc.}

LYNN, the laundry, maybe you've sorted this but here's my two cents: Could you sit down with DAN and write a list of all the chores, inside and outside of the home. START with the inside chores first, each choose One item you'd not mind doing off this main list and add it to a new list for each of YOU. Continue until the only jobs left on the list are the jobs you both don't like and the outside of home jobs. YOU SHOULD HAVE AN EQUAL SHARE OF chores on each of your lists!!!

Then Add your outside of the home jobs at the bottom of your separate lists. Are your lists equal in quantity??? e.g 10 jobs listed for DAN 10 jobs listed for LYNN (Remember you each chose the jobs you wanted so each job is worth the same value as in contributing to your household and relationship, so there should not be any resentment felt towards the other, remember you had choices to make, you made them.)

If the list aren't equal cos someone does a job outside the home and another one doesn't take the full time outside job as 3/4 of a list so the one who is at home gets 3/4's of the persons list of CHORES they like doing. Therefore, say DAN works outside the home he'll have a 1/4 of the jobs he likes on his list and LYNN will have her list and 3/4's of jobs which would be on DAN's list if he's on holiday or not a work.

Now you will have left the jobs NO one likes to do. 1/2 these jobs, no matter whether you work outside the home or not. Like cleaning the stove, or drains, or windows, BIG JOBS, not needed every day. Do these on a rota basis. Say one month one does them and the other someone else does them.

Agree if one of you is ill or too busy you'll STOP and have a meeting to ask the one least busy for help.

If the other is finished and wishes to help the other with their chores, THIS IS A CHOICE!!! Do so only if you can do it without wanting anything back in return, if you can't DON'T HELP!!!

Now at the end of the week both STOP and say THANK YOU for working as a team with me. Also if one of you know's that they have a busy schedule coming up at work etc and will find it hard keeping up with home chores then agree to take some of the load off the other person so as the TEAM works well for a limited period of agreed time.

IF your feeling resentful, remember its you both who chose your home routine, and so its you two who can speak up without blame and shame and agree on change at any time it needs changing.

Hi AJ glad you found out what LOL meant, it took me a while to, to find out myself. AS for shouting, NO, I wasn't shouting, not in my opinion anyway, it was for emphasizing what I said and what Jay said, I am not into all this generalizing so for me NO caps don't mean shouting, they mean EMPHASIZING, for others its up to them what their definition is.

Hi Asha, about your reply to my post on the party issue. The reason I rang him back was so he'd see the consequences of him not minding her. Since if he doesn't see that his poor behaviour causes xxxx to happen how can he ever change without the awareness. Also I realised along time ago what causes unnecessary problems is manufacturing anger by non communication in an honest way. SO THIS IS WHY I RANG HIM.

JAY I hear your frustration and REMEMBER IT WELL the times I felt like you did this weekend.

I have some things I want to share also but I'll post them on another post.

Love to you all Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 06:20 AM

S1

Hi All,

BECKY I love Forest Gump!!! I watched only the other week, it rang bells in my ears. I know to the feeling of not having enough rocks, still don't, though I remember what Dr Irene said. When you feel the anger message go cool down and then, set a boundary. this is how you constructively sort your anger, do what you can control. I was so mad at my ex on Friday as you all know. I had some choices to make and some guilt to dump where it belonged. I did it!! It was hard but I did it!!! I set a boundary, that said, I will still go to the party. There is no harm taking the little one. MY ex wanted to stop me going, he didn't succeed. Although I didn't much feel like having fun, since I felt out of place, ONLY one their without a spouse, Well there were some others but its not the first time they'd gone alone without a spouse.

Anyway my ex rang me at 11.00pm and said "Why aren't you home yet, do you know our daughter has dancing in the morning." I said "Yes I know she has dancing, I am waiting for a lift." I didn't engage with him. I was livid though cuz everyone knew he'd rang. They all said "We'd not have that, we'd get a solicitor to sort him so he knows he can't order you about." THEY just don't understand all this do they!!

Anyway On Saturday I had a great time, with my sister's and do you know I noticed my manipulator sister, gets manipulated. THIS was great awareness for me, why? because I realised that manipulators are manipulated also. You see, she manipulates me cuz she knows whatever I still love her, though she feels guilty and obligated and fearful of those whose love doesn't come so easy.

A girl came to the bonfire at my sister's house. We all put some money in a pot and bought fireworks and food. This girl had to go early, to go out to the pub with her mom and to drop off her son at his dad's house. ALL HER CHOICES. Anyway when it came near to her leaving she said to my sister. "GO use some more of those fireworks." My sister "Said, well I thought we'd keep some for later so the kids don't get fed up. We can eat now and watch the bonfire." "OH can we said her friend, and that means my son misses out on them." My sister said "Oh okay go get them." GUILT TRIP OR WHAT!!! Anyway I intervened. cos I wanted to show the two of them what had happened. I said "Maybe MAGs you could let a few off for your pals son and still keep some for later, since its your pals choice if she goes or stays, and not your fault." [The pal didn't like hearing this but well truth and honest are my values] MAGS did this, though she kept saying or I feel guilty. I said "WHY she makes her choices not you." She said "OKAY" Then she dropped the guilt. The pal got to see a few more fireworks and then when she was going, she said "SORRY MAGS I am sorry for being so selfish". MAGS said to me later "T, do you think I was selfish, I said, WHY? you invited us all to your HOUSE, you could of said NO, and then where'd they have the bonfire, so you've not been selfish infact you just met her half way, so she got to see some more fireworks and you got to keep some for later for the kids. A Win-Win in my opinion. She seemed to feel better about this then!!

Anyway my ex rang me just before I went to the bonfire. Here's what happened, ANY opinion please????

He rang me and said "Theressa, what are you doing tonight." I said "Going to my sister's for a bonfire." He said "OH right, good bye".

Anyway later he rang and said "Theressa the decorator is coming in the morning." [He has paid for a good friend of his to decorator MISSY's room.] I said "Okay". Then here comes the GUILT AND blame game!!!! He said "I'm taking MISSY to the bonfire at the Park tomorrow night, all the family is coming down. [His family] I said "Right, she has a birthday party at 5 until 7pm." "He said Oh that is great, I mean if you'd made plans that would be great, wouldn't it, but me, oh it doesn't matter. I mean party, you didn't say anything to me about no party." I said "I know, I only found out just before." I said "Perhaps she could go to the party and the bonfire, she could leave the party a little early and still go with you to the bonfire." He said "Yeah and then we'd inconvenience all the rest." [I said yeah well my priority is my child, if they don't want to wait its their choice, just for them, I am not letting MISSY down.] He said "OH forget it let her go to the party, doesn't matter what I want." [GUILT TRIP]

I said "Okay, though she could do both, so I'll leave it up to you, to sort out with MISSY, I am not bothered, what happens."

Anyway on Sunday Missy said "mommy I won't go to the party cos it will upset daddy". I said "Okay". Then we we're at her dads house to sort out what he'd decided about the party and bonfire. Missy said as soon as she seen her daddy. "Daddy I won't go to the party and upset you." He said "you will, cos its important to you, you want to go to both so you'll go to both". I was amazed.

You see I laid the responsibility and guilt back into her dad's lap. So she went to both after all, and had fun.

My ex went out whilst I was at his sister's house, [He is staying their temporarily] She said to me "Do you know when he rang you on Friday, he didn't go out for long and then he came home and rang you." I said "Yeah I know". She said "He misses you, he still fancies you, I told him if he doesn't sort things soon you'll meet someone else." He didn't reply. I said "Oh" She said "he wanted you to ask him to go with you on Friday, but you didn't ask him." I said "Yeah cos how silly would he feel sat with those at work staring at him cos they know how he brought all this separation on himself." She said "URRMM, he has though hasn't he." I said "I don't like to judge."

This left me confused. I want a guy who wants intimacy and to be healthy, he can't be without help, so how can I take him back??? I can't is the answer, not if he is gonna expected me to give up me again. Not if its only on his terms. Sad as it is I know he won't change. He'll be bossing me about and controlling me all again.

Do you know when I here him be sarcastic with others even it make me cringe, why does this happen?? Does this happen to any of you??

Then this happened: My ex has a roof rack at my house, [it came with the other stuff with the removal firm] I want to get my new carpet for the hallway, its in the way the roof rack really. Anyway I said "I need that roof rack out of my hall way very soon. cos I want to get the carpet laid." My ex said "Its not in the way, just move it and then put it back when the carpets laid. I said "No, it will mark my carpet, take it to your house." He said "I can't it will be stolen and costs a fortune to replace, the house isn't lived in yet as you know." I said "Well I don't want it stuck in my house, its not my roof rack." He said "Oh yeah, but its okay to have my microwave for you to use and my chip fryer, cos they benefit you. After all I do for you, you selfish cow." I didn't reply.

Anyway later on when I went to drop Missy off after the party, it seems his family said They'd made other arrangements and so only him and his sister he lives with were gonna go to the park, he said "Missy would you like mommy to come with us." How could I refuse.

Later at the park at the bonfire, his sister said "He told me that he knows its not your problem the roof rack and he knows its annoying you, but what can he do. He doesn't want it stolen, he thought you'd help him out." I said "Yeah by me leaving my carpet unlaid just so his house can get finished, why should i. My priority is my house, not his." She said "well that's your choice".

Then I saw something which always bugged me about my ex. HIS TANTRUMS. Him and Missy went off to see one of the fair rides. The next minute he storms off and the little one is crying. My ex sister asked Missy what is the problem. She said "My dad, said I can't go on the big rides, when I asked, he said "Your so ungrateful." I said "No I am not." and then he stormed off. My ex sister said "oh dear" and Missy said "You know my dad has an attitude problem, he is so silly." We, me and the my ex sister just looked at each other and she said "Do you know I never knew he was so immature." I said "Well you do now, now you know why I moved out. In between two kids for seven years was more than enough." She said "Oh boy, I see your viewpoint now." I realised this is the bit of him I HATE!!!! [YEAH I AM SHOUTING THIS COS I AM ANGRY!!!]

SO you see I've had an eventful weekend, can't wait to hear all your comments.

Love Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 12:09 PM

S1

Hello, Dr. Irene. I have been reading and posting on your site since August, 2000. Hi Jean! My posts are under the name 'Jean'. I am presently reading Patricia Evans books on verbal abuse and have found great insight from them and your site. I have come to the conclusion that after being married for 25 years I have been putting up with verbal abuse from a 'controlling caregiver'. I met my husband when I was 20 and he was 25. He moved me out of my apartment, sold my car and bought a new one, planned our wedding and honeymoon, built his dream house, etc. I felt out of control but at the same time very cared for. I was brought up in a house full of anger (my parents divorced after 30 yrs.of fighting) so I was willing to do just about anything to get along. Besides, how could I not? As he says (even now), "I give you everything. You have absolutely nothing to be unhappy about!". I did not object to his treatment in an obvious manner, but I was gradually becoming less able to interact with him in any way. In August, 2000 he blew up at me in front of some people. Only then did he decide we needed help. He told the counselor that he didn't like the way I was making him act! So we were in marriage counseling for him! Oh, brother...

Counseling lasted three sessions, but of course the counselor didn't know what he was talking about according to my husband. He was a Christian counselor who suggested the book 'Boundaries in Marriage' the first time! It was a real eye-opener to me. I am thankful that I went. My husband only read 3 chapters of the book and was totally uncooperative in the sessions. Now I see that he really did think the counselor would tell me to shape up and when that didn't occur and the doc honed in on HIS behavior, he quit. So now we are at an impasse. I am trying to be more assertive and praying to God to help me. I realize he isn't going to change, but I can! I can control me! Thanks to you and others, I feel like my eyes have been opened after 25 yrs. and I am NOT crazy or selfish or too sensitive, etc. Whew- What a relief!

My question- My husband's abuse is most definitely covert. He discounts, trivializes, criticizes, etc. But he has never called me names. Then I got to thinking. He calls me "Gloria". That is NOT my name. When we were first married, I kept asking, "Who's Gloria??" He would say, "I don't know. I like that name." So I asked him if he had a former girlfriend named Gloria and he assured me that he didn't. So for 25 years he has called me "Gloria" and up until recently I didn't realize that it was usually in a disparaging manner. Like when we are with friends or his family and I do or say something he doesn't like and he will say, "Oh, Gloria!" and everyone laughs. Especially his family. They all call me Glo. And after thinking about it, he doesn't do it around my family. So in September I told him my name is not Gloria and to please call me by my real name. He looked at me like I was from Mars! Do you think this was a subtle form of control? I do, but after all these years, I can't believe that I didn't see it before now. I feel like a chump for letting him belittle me all these years. Do you think he would have stood for it if I had started calling him by another name?? I was just wondering if you had run into this before? I know people have pet names for each other, but something totally different??

Thanks for taking time to read this. - Jean

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 01:09 PM

S1

Good Morning Cat Box and Welcome Jean,

Wow, you guys are posting faster than I can think. Also in Working It Out there is a lot going on (no men, tho...Good for you here, Steve) and I haven't had time to answer anyone there, either.

Great reply to a woman who's husband gave her a list of things for her to do to make him happy.

Theressa, thanks for your suggestion. B, too with the chores. I know where this came from with Dan. His mother would get him angry and he'd clean, clean and clean. Then all was forgiven, I guess. I think he was programmed to clean rather than expressing his anger. He's going to have to fix this one, but I like the list idea. I can split the wood, drain the carburetor and do the plumbing. This gets touchy, because then he thinks I'm in his territory and frequently these things don't get done. I'm going to have to retrain yourself here, too. I'm just learning this, so it's going to take some time.

Theressa, with Becky, I think there was so much anger management on her part that she was getting further down. I have to stick with my first post here. I'm glad she finally got angry. How are you doing Becky? Now that she's realized how angry she really is I thing she'll be able to learn what to do with it.

Jay, are you calling Steve controlling? Grin, or just men in general?? I understand about the police, the daughter, the son, etc. We never seem to get hit with one thing at a time. Muddles the brain. The way I see it is the guy tries to control the girl and the girl tries to control the guy. The girl thinks she's the "good guy" and the guy feels scapegoated and doesn't think. Just for the record.

Asha, I'm so glad you are you. Enough said. You know what I am talking about. Thanks.

Just say Hi, Astrid. We care about you.

Jean, hello. We (male and female) can sure get snowed under by our upbringing, can't we? Gloria, no less? It would make me crazy. I couldn't even post here with an aka. Funny, in our family, my dad has never hit anyone's name the first time. We have to be pretty secure in who we are. My dad even spells my name Lyn now. We don't take offense. This is just a quirk of his. Maybe in is mind Gloria is the good wife and Jean is the not so good wife? Who knows? Have you ever called him anything else?

AJ, I have to tell you what my sister in law did. She's married to Dan's brother and she blew up the other day and told him, "We've done things for 20 years your way and look where we are. Now, we are going to spend the next 20 doing things my way!" She says it's working so far. I haven't told her about Dr. Irene.

Theressa, I'm glad to hear things are changing because you are. Keep up the good work.

Dan will be home later tonight and has to leave early in the morning so I have to go and take some disengage therapy, just in case. It worked so well. I just have to learn to keep it up. I think I should have a Master's Degree in engage, by now! Time to take another course.

Love to all and I'll get back to you when I can.

Loads of Love and Hugs,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 03:39 PM

S1

Dear all. I finally decided I had to leave for a bit. Although I am coming back for my son in the day. Just had it with the abuse I have had for 20 years. Don't know what I will do eventually; depends on how the other half reacts. I will see him if he turns up for the family therapy on Friday. Daughter not speaking again as well as I refused to put up with her rudeness. I just want to take our son and start over somewhere else. The physical violence was the last straw. I like your newfound strength Jay!

Love, jay

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 05:04 PM

S1

God love ya' Jay, I'm glad. Good luck and my prayers and thoughts are with you. (((HUGS))) and Lots more hugs. Love, Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 06:19 PM

S1

Hi! A quick note before dinner.

(((Jay))) I feel for you and I admire your bravery! take care and stay strong!

Theressa, I believe that it was you that mentioned cringing at his sarcasm toward others. i identify with that! Woe to the telemarketer who gets him on the phone. he won't just politely say "no thanks" and hang up. He plays cat and mouse: "who is this?" "Where are you calling from?" "Did I ask you to call me?" (BTW, my older boy used to be a telemarketer, and he said that the surest way to get put down for a call back is to be rude)!

The other night, we got a campaign call for George Bush. The lady said, "This is so-and-so calling for George Bush." He replied "George Bush isn't here!" and laughed uproariously like he'd done something so clever. His aunt and sister happened to be visiting and they looked at him with puzzled expressions, like What are you doing? I suppose there was no real harm done, but that kind of behavior is so sixth grade! (Then I have a 6th grade sense of humor too!)

He will be rude at times to sales people and waitresses; if they can't answer a question, he acts very intolerant. I just fade into the background when he does that.

As for my anger, I've been angry before, but it's usually the impotent rage type of anger--no direction, frustrated exploding. This is more centered. It comes from a solid, sure place inside myself that KNOWS what I want and don't want! I am clearing the air, for myself, at least. I told him last night that if he insists on believing that I'm out to rip him off (just like all the others, he says) then I don't want him around. He can believe what he wants, but he will have to do it elsewhere. I guess he could tell that I meant it. (Knowing that I've done my homework as far as my legal rights are concerned may have made an impression as well).

I need to eat and probably take a headache pill. The cold rainy weather is messing me up!

Oh! Welcome Jean! If it's any comfort, your husband sounds so much like mine. Abusers tend to do and say the same things--and they think their behavior is all about US!

Later, everyone,

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 06:59 PM

S1

Dear Becky,

Glad to hear from you. You're sounding better. I hope so.

I love what you wrote about abusers language. It had to be about us, otherwise they would have to accept responsibility. My X, the beater upper, would beat me to a pulp and then say, "See what you made me do!" YUK YUK YUK YUK YUK!

Take care of yourself. (((HUGS))) And good luck!

Love,

Lynn

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 07:27 PM

S1

I'm still here, and in marginally better spirits. Beware, long and rambling post to follow.

I am a stressball (great word!) right now. I am not dealing all that well with co-workers who seem to be (almost literally) adding two and two and getting five. I wouldn't bother fighting it, except a) the auditors will not be happy if they see these mistakes and b) I'm working for a provider of low-cost sliding-scale health insurance. If the client's income is figured wrong, we could end up overcharging them, and that's just not right. But apparently I am the troublemaker since I'm new and those who have been there for years think that savings accounts (principal not interest) can be counted as income (this is not correct within our guidelines; I checked) and that semi-monthly paychecks are the same as biweekly paychecks. ARGH! It's not even the kind of job I can say "oh well, it's not worth getting stressed about" because if we screw up some kid's health insurance it could do real harm. I'm trying to get better about picking my battles, but this one seems sort of important, but of course nobody wants to listen to me. "You aren't supposed to feel sorry for the kids; just do your job!" That's only part of the point. The rest is I'd prefer not to be told to do it wrong by the people who are training me! Maybe you need to find work in a facility where staff is not so burned out...

Spent a nice partial weekend with Mom. We took my grandmother to tea and we went to see Elisabeth Von Trapp (daughter of one of the Von Trapps of Sound of Music fame) in concert. It was wonderful! I got fed a nice breakfast the next morning and came back to put some overtime in at work. When I finally got home there were 10 messages on my machine -- three automated "vote on Tuesday" things, two hang-ups, one call from my landlord, one call from a friend who wanted to hang out, and three calls from L (my ex).

Apparently things have changed, he's decided he has to rethink his recent belief in the divine of "You don't exist and I don't like you!" Why this is MY problem I don't know, but he's depressed and having disturbing dreams pertaining to faith/religion, and wants Astrid to come make everything better or at least explain everything to him so he can make sense of his life. No. NOT MY JOB! Agreed. This from the person who basically (though not in this vocabulary, but it was the gist of it) told me that religious faith is the ultimate form of codependence, and he was trying to draw his strength from himself rather from any sort of higher power.

That offended me. To say the least. And of course, it used to be that any invocation of a spiritual connection was the fastest way for L to get me un-mad at him, and I came a little too close to falling for it. Again. But I've thought and cried and thought more and realized that I can be "connected" to many people, that I don't WANT to be so "connected" to L or anyone else that I lose my sense of self again, and that spiritual connection or no, L's recent behavior (especially the whole drug issue) is sufficiently unacceptable to me that I can't take him back unless and until I see a meaningful change. Don't fall for anybody's words. Pay attention inside.

David, if you happen to be reading over here, this might apply to your wife: I am wary of even the changes L is making right now that seem positive, because they are so intermingled with wanting me back (he has asked again, and I have said no again, though much more hesitantly this time than in the past). What assurance do I have that the changes will continue if I come back? Not enough. It's only been three months. And in my case, I don't trust MYSELF not to start snapping at L about things I really don't have the right to ask him to change. I don't want to promise him anything and then feel trapped by the promise. You need to work on your self-control issues, for your own sake.

Went back over childhood memories and such and realized something that I need to keep in mind. I was an avid reader of fairy tales and Victorian-era classic children's books. The pretty girls have blonde hair and blue eyes, or black hair and blue eyes, or maybe either red hair and blue eyes or brown hair and brown eyes. I have brown hair and green eyes. This led me to believe that I was not and could not be pretty. (This is one of the things that my parents didn't know about till years later.) In junior high, I had short-ish straight hair when everyone else had big permed hair. This got me made fun of. I was convinced that I was not pretty. I also had guys pretend to ask me out for someone else as a way of making fun of me.

Once I was in college, I was eventually considered something of a catch. Probably in part because I was one of a handful of females in a hobby that was then even more male-dominated than it is currently. Once I got over wondering if people who tried to catch my attention really meant it, I ended up being what I've referred to as "the practice girlfriend" more times than I care to remember. This tells me you had no self-confidence and you found a way to push guys away. I'd have someone for a few months, then either the other person would give me some variant of "you're too much like a sister to me" or "I can't see us together ten years from now" OR I would be left for someone new and better-suited to the other person. (At least one such couple is now married.)

Why did/do I continue to fall for this? Because it is still so shocking to me that anyone would be genuinely interested in me! Intellectually I know I'm fairly attractive (even though somewhat heaver than I'd like to be) and those accursed green eyes are my best feature. But the pattern was set when I was quite young. I think the "practice girlfriend" thing applies even to me and L, maybe he just needed more practice than most. *giggle* We did make it through two years (my previous longest relationship was six months!) and he still wants more. Or so he says.

Blah. School is NOT in session. So there.

On the name thing, I basically don't use my true first name EVER unless I have to on a legal document. I will tolerate it from immediate family and older relatives. I use a nickname of it that (as I've said before) is quite close to the name of a current poster here. I once dated a guy who insisted on calling me by my MIDDLE name though! That was weird. No one EVER calls me by my middle name. I told him to cut it out and he just wouldn't. We also have a situation with too many people having the same name or same first initial. I have to differentiate by nicknames or SCA names, as appropriate. :)

Steve and Lynn, the doghouse/cat box was sort of like what C (the one who gave me the flower) used to have with a bunch of his friends -- the Bachelor's B**** Forum, later renamed to the more genteel Bitter and Cynical Men's Committee. It's now the Bitter and Cynical People's Committee (we're now Politically Correct! *giggle*) or perhaps the Bitter and Cynical Poetry Circle.

Steve, on the 50/50 bit: I tried to give 100 and expect 0, but I don't think that truly expecting *nothing* in return is healthy either. Nope. I think there are some things we all have the right to expect in relationships, and the responsibility to give, no matter what else is going on: we should feel safe, we should expect honesty from our partners, we should give and receive respect.

If L and I never had to get out of bed we would have been fine. *sigh* That's part of what was so frustrating for me about him. I knew he was capable of being loving, considerate, communicating well and being willing to try new things -- the physical relationship had all that to a truly amazing degree. The rest of our relationship found all of those things severely lacking. But because we had that in one area, I believed (perhaps mistakenly) that I could expect it from him in the rest of our interactions, and I'd get frustrated (and on occasion go on a shouting rampage) when I felt I wasn't getting those things in the rest of our relationship.

Jay, I love Macavity and all the rest of the Practical Cats. I wonder who would be who in here. :)

Becky, I hear you about the sarcasm making people cringe. Mom says this about Dad sometimes, that the whole atmosphere was just charged with it whenever he got angry.

For some of you, their solution of the past few years might work -- they have no desire/intention to get a divorce, but found they don't live together well at this point. They live apart, but spend some weekends together, take vacations together, and so forth. They get their space, they get each other's company, and they can usually be on better behavior for a few days if they know they get to go home alone at the end. :) I know I wouldn't ant to live with either one of them either, so it all makes sense to me. Then, I'm too young to feel that is a viable solution for me. I want someone I can LIVE with, I want kids and I want there to be two parents in the home if at all possible.

Jay, good for you for leaving. I think that's exactly what you need to do at this point. Stay strong.

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 09:27 PM

S1

Hmm. Been debating with self whether or not to post 'bout this because it's a little tooo weird. But what the heck, may as well give it a go.

Something L used to do that made me feel all warm fuzzy happy was sing to me, either when we were going to sleep or when we were in the car and an appropriate song came on the radio. So I was putting in some overtime yesterday, like I said, and enjoying that the snarly co-workers were not in the building and I could play the radio in peace. There's this new song out with lyrics that are a little too appropriate (it's called "If You're Gone" I think, don't remember the band), and if I hadn't known that it wasn't possible I would have *sworn* L was there singing along with it. It wasn't the first time I'd heard the song or anything, and I've even thought of him when I heard it before, but this was different.

Was good I was in the office by myself. I wouldn't have wanted the co-workers to see me crying. That freaked me out though. I know it isn't possible, I don't think I've lost my grip on reality that much, but....I don't know. Later that day when I saw him was when he asked me to come back again. And he sounded more like his old self than he had in a very very long time, not to mention more contrite about his part of the stuff that went wrong between us. But of course, once he was done visiting me he was off to visit Cheech and Chong, and I didn't ask because I didn't want to know....but (from the last fight we had) THEY think he's better off without me because he's so much more mellow when he gets high.

So, it's still not good enough. But just good enough to make me WISH it was good enough.

But wishing doesn't get me very far. Right. Time to recognize your worth and stop being fearful of a man who is actually emotionally available.

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 09:52 PM

S1

Jay: "Steve - Do you mean you think only men can be controlling. I sure live with a control freak but I see things about me that are controlling too."

Oh, no, I think it's not based on sex at all. I've seen plenty of both sexes controlling the other, as well as same sexes controlling each other.

Astrid: "Steve, on the 50/50 bit: I tried to give 100 and expect 0, but I don't think that truly expecting *nothing* in return is healthy either. I think there are some things we all have the right to expect in relationships, and the responsibility to give, no matter what else is going on: we should feel safe, we should expect honesty from our partners, we should give and receive respect."

I disagree with you Astrid. At one time I would have seen it that way. But now, I understand the problems that come with "expectations". We should not "expect" honesty. We should just have it as a boundary and if WE are giving 100 honesty and getting none in return, we simply move on. Goodbye.

If you always "expect", then you will be at the blind mercy of the gods of "impatience". I think real love is 100/0. That doesn't mean you tolerate getting kicked in the teeth by someone who doesn't respect you. It just means you give your best without thinking of it as a mutual fund. Then, you will soon clearly see what your mate is going to truly be like. If he/she's right or wrong for you, you'll see it clearly.

I believe that to have a "real" relationship (not based on expectations) you need to see what's real about it. It's like lighting a real fire under someone's feet, and watching to see how long it takes for them to react, as opposed to "asking" them how long it would take for them to react to a fire under their foot.

100/0 will give you a much clearer picture of what your spouse is really like. 50/50 will make it a business competition and "let the games begin" will be the war cry after the starting gun goes off.

If you know you're giving 100 and expecting 0, then you will never be in that "competitive business relationship". You will be in a loving relationship - or out. There will be no in-between where both partners are constantly checking their own emotional bank accounts to see if the other has fulfilled their "expectations" yet.

Just my opinions of course. At this time. Subject to change without notice. Grin. Grin.

Steve

B1: Submit
Date: Monday, November 06, 2000
Time: 09:58 PM

S1

Theressa:

I understand why you rang him back (to see consequences etc.), but there may come a time when it won't matter to you if he sees the consequences or not. What he sees and doesn't see is up to him, and no amount of effort on your part will help him, if *he* doesn't want to see. By telling him your plans you gave him the opportunity to call you at the party - basically you engaged him (without realizing it), and he engaged back. Do you see what I mean? I say this because I think you're accurately reading his intentions, but it's when you stop responding to them that I think you'll make the most impact.

Jay - It would be nice to take credit for Steve, but just as I'm not responsible for his anger, neither am I responsible for his happiness. I'm just glad he's choosing the latter. I can't make anyone change except myself. It sounds like you also are doing just that. I'll send good thoughts your way.

Hi everyone else. Busy day today - my love to you all. To you too

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 07, 2000
Time: 05:52 AM

S1

Hi All,

I'll reply to Lynn first because I saw her post first. Lynn do you see me changing. My therapist said last night at my session. "Theressa a small part of you still seeks reconciliation, you know this don't you. Theressa you describe your ex's behaviour and it's the way kids act, though he is STUCK at this stage, its not ridiculous or pathetic nor is your ex, he is simply doing what he knows, he has no awareness like you do, you've enabled him and covered for him by people pleasing for a long time and stopped him suffering the consequences, you are still somewhat. Your ex doesn't believe in change cos he has had to go through any, you've helped him stay stuck, though now you've stopped enabling him quite a bit he might see the consequences for his actions. You can't rush him to see them any quicker than he wants to. FIRST you have to stop enabling and make them sit up and listen and take note, how you do this is by not enabling. YES it might be hard, it will mean letting him down lots, it will mean the fear of him not coming back, it will be the fear of being lonely, it will be the fear of abandonment of disapproval. It will mean you'll have to learn to do the things you get him to do. BUT you can learn, it doesn't need to be perfect, just like you are teaching Missy she can try her best, and not worry what others say, the same for Theressa. You see when you take the blame when he says look what you made me do. You enabled him. LYNN isn't this a coincidence its what you also said.

Becky do you mean with the telemarketer my ex, I should answer the phone and say stop bothering me, I'll do what I want? I was a little confused by your reply on this.

It helped Becky to know that not only I cringe when my ex is sarcastic with others, my therapist said its cos we have hot buttons and the manipulation is a wire to them. If we let the wire connect to the hot button we feel the pain.

Hi Asha, I hear you when you say you understand why I rang him back. My therapist told me I need to strengthen the TRUE SELF then when I love ME wholly I won't be bothered about protecting my ex, I will be bothered what is truly right for Theressa. ASHA it is hard for me, I can't dump the notion of us ever reconciling and someone dropping a magic spell on my ex and him changing. I keep hoping he'll wake up and get to therapy. SOME dream eh!!! How'd sort this out?

My therapist said its like when you had your old car Theressa it was familiar and although it had flaws it seem comfortable. Then you got your new one, it was unfamiliar and had few flaws but you felt uncomfortable with it, it was new, you didn't know it. This is a metaphor of THERESSA going through all these changes. There new, unfamiliar, and uncomfortable, but YOU can do it, I know you can. THERAPIST HAS GREAT FAITH IN ME. He told me just to act and push forward. It sounds easier but its as hard as hell.

I want my daughter to see her daddy though how'd I keep up friendship for MISSY's sake and still move on and leave behind the past? Some say its best to be friends than enemies, BUT how do you re-negoiate a new relationship of just friendship for your children's sake with the other parent?

My therapist said Theressa okay so you don't sleep with this guy, he doesn't live with you, he lives on his own BUT you go out to Pizza palour, you went to the bonfire with him. What mixed message is this? ASHA I am confused, how can I just not go anymore to these things, isn't this not being friends?

When I first started therapy the therapists said you can still be friends has he changed his mind? What do you make of this?

YOU said Asha that by phoning him I was engaging, OKAY!! But isn't it impolite if a parent is gonna visit their kid if your out and they don't know where you are? What else could I have done? YES so you say I understood his intentions, I think I did!!! Though how do I not react to them, can you explain this to me?

Thanks all of you Theressa

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 07, 2000
Time: 06:36 AM

S1

OK, Steve, here's where I have a problem with your concept of expecting nothing from a partner, and solving it all by setting boundaries:

I know you probably don't really mean it this way, but it sounds like you think everyone should start off from the *expectation* that a prospective or current partner is going to be bad news, or at the very least unwilling to put effort into a relationship.

"No expectations" could easily equate to "expect the worst and then be grateful when you don't get it." Or "expect the worst and be prepared to be defensive at all times." Or "expect that I'll be treated badly because I don't deserve any better, so I'm going to give and give and give because that's the only way anyone will ever be able to stand to be with me." Bad news.

I agree that we shouldn't expect our partners to, say, be mind-readers. Or even to give exactly 50% at all times in all things.

And I agree that keeping a "balance sheet" in a relationship is a bad move, and that ideally both partners will be giving without thought of return. But the basic stuff has to come first. Respect, Safety, and Trust.

Astrid

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 07, 2000
Time: 09:20 AM

S1

Hi, all jay again I forgot to say welcome to Jean. Well, I really did get myself out of the house. Won't say where to as my husband might read that. If only he would start posting. I would gladly pay Dr. Irene for her comments!

Vented on a friend all evening. Some people in this world are Saints! But I was totally amazed that I slept. Now back in the house during the day and taken with an urge to clean and clear it out.

Daughter being extremely abusive. I am not bothering to engage. I have just had enough and want a life. Taking it a bit slowly. But I will be o.k. Husband silent but that is nothing new.

It feels so weird. I thought I would be distraught and instead I just feel like I am taking care of myself. It occurred to me the housework thing might be an attempt to claim I put nothing into the family home and so that is another reason for cleaning it.

I hope that my son is o.k and can't wait for the end of school.

Steve, I am not there so I don't know if you are controlling or not!

Becky. I am neither brave or strong, just exhausted and I do want the marriage to work out. I don't know why I love the guy, but I do. I don't know why I should be willing to forgive my husband or daughter, but I am, which is probably a gift from God!

But on the other hand I can't tolerate the control issue. I have to be my own person. Maybe you have a better experience of your Southern Baptist style of Christianity but I got sold on the submission thing for years and now I feel like a fool. I want to write a book about it eventually. I even thought I had to wear the type of clothes my husband or the church dictated. I am a very intelligent person and I behave like that.....No mind of my own at all. That really frightens me as I still know a lot of people thinking like that.

Sorry anyone who objects to this Christian vent. It is not meant to bring any particular religion into the board. I have taught numerous Muslims over the years and respect all faiths even if I think mine is the right one. It is just a personal vent and I am not rejecting God or Jesus anyone religious out there so don't pray for me to see the light!!!!

But sometimes I wonder how much religion made me co dependence. I take responsibility for my actions, so I am not saying that this is the fault of the church. It is my fault for not thinking for myself. Have you seen Verbal Abuse & the Church?

Naughty me I rag on the telemarketing sales people dreadfully. No wonder they keep calling. Becky, on this one, I do think that a lot of people do this and it is just getting fed up at the constant interruptions. I confess to being terrible about this!

Oh dear, I think you have a point. I am not very tolerant of salespeople either. Sixth grade is probably our reception. Perhaps I need to see others don't see my behaviour about this in the same light as myself and change. No guilt!

I think it is you who are strong. You seem very clear on what you do and don't want and to be utilizing your anger well. I am not doing so well at that.

Astrid, Now that is interesting, which cat is which. I'm glad you didn't confuse sex with the other things in a relationship with your ex. Also, I think that God is bigger than us (This is getting to be a religious post) so I am glad you don't take responsibility for your ex's religious search. I have seen people genuinely change, so I know that it is possible as a result of a religious conversion. (I have my own story to tell about myself there) but I have also seen people think they will change and change for a while and then go back. Also I think people think everything will change in a miraculous way all at once, but they just don't. People think generally they have changed more than they have and I have seen church elders act out their own controlling ways on their flock. So if he goes through a conversion of any sort I would not go back until you have seen a good lot of changing!

As for your solution, it could work. I won't reject it out of hand. Thank you. There must have been something in these partners to make us stay for so long that wasn't all bad.

I sometimes think that marriage therapy should be really direct and tough instead of all this letting each say what they think. I have always subscribed to the let people reach their own conclusions therapy, but I Think now that there is a place for the other kind.

Which is why I like this board so much. I trust the people who post to really say what they think.

Astrid, about the drug thing. My husband once had a load of dope I was worried about and got into a state about. I eventually found he had used the lot and it didn't exist any more!

Asha, take the credit for you! Thanks for the support and everyone else, thanks too.

Jean, welcome! I just read your post. Maybe some of what I said in the part of this post to Becky applies to you too? I have a feeling that some Christian guys get a strong message they can be in charge with that bit about 'wives submit.' And we never get told, don't submit to abuse. I was horrified to learn there is a whole group in the US where the wives give in and do what their husbands want on everything. What a gift to a guy who is controlling and of course if God has said it.......

The best thing Dr. Irene has said to me is to not let people treat you worse than you would treat yourself. Close. More accurate: Not to let other people treat you worse than you would treat them. You have a right to be called by the name you want. I have heard preachers preach we have no rights. We do have responsibilities and one of them is to love our neighbor and we love ourselves. If we let ourselves be disrespected, then we are not loving out neighbor.

Also, if it is physical abuse the church tends to be sympathetic. But I think a lot of Christian guys justify their covert abuse by thinking their wives have to follow their lead on everything. I will probably be labeled a heretic now and once again, I don't want to offend the religious sensibilities of anyone else on the board. Don't worry; you're not offensive at all.

What a 'religious post!:

Well folks I had better get on. I just hope I can keep strong in all this going on with me. It is weird but I thought I would be distraught but more I feel relieved and like I am getting a rest from all the hassle! My brain needs it. Love and hugs. Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 07, 2000
Time: 09:28 AM

S1

I wanted to share this with Becky:

Recovery From Love Addiction

by Irene Matiatos, Ph.D.

Pia Mellody has written a wonderful book called Facing Love Addiction. The main premise is that we look to another to give us what emotional "stuff" we need and do not have. The problem is that the love addict's solution doesn't work very well for very long. Idealized infatuation may feel like love, but it is little more than an empty promise of what the future will bring. (see love vs. infatuation)

We are unable to participate in a mature love relationship before we develop the ability to provide ourselves with the right emotional "stuff." (Call it "self-respect", "self-love", whatever...) Love addicts spend more energy manipulating the environment -- in order to get others to give them what they need -- than they do in noticing and meeting their own needs. Trying to control events and other people drives them. Unfortunately, an obsession with things outside the self does little in meeting one's own needs. It does however provide a distraction from dealing with the inner self. It can be very difficult to get off this merry-go-round. Think of a farmer who must till his soil, fertilize, weed, and water his crop so it may thrive. Instead of getting on with the day-to-day work of farming, he becomes focused on how good he will feel driving the new car he will buy with his earnings. Spending most of his time test driving different models and negotiating prices, the farmer's crop fails. Resigned to a miserable car-less winter, the farmer becomes lost in his new dream: he'll get an even nicer car next fall!

I've never seen a case of love addiction where the love addict was relatively happy with his or her life. Susceptible individuals usually have a goal or a dream and feel they are "on hold" until someone comes into their lives to help them materialize it. Maybe the dream is a prettier, more comfortable home; children; a good social life; moving to the city; moving to the country; a partner to open a store with; a divorce from a partner you opened a store with; and on and on.

The bottom line is that if you are not happy with your Right Now, you are likely to be dreaming of a future that is different from your Here and Now. You are likely to vacillate between a sense of purposeless, mindless floating, depression, and an obsession with Getting There -- rather than on Living Your Life! If you don't know how to live in the Here and Now now, what makes you think you could miraculously do it if you got what you wanted? Where do you think the phrase, "Be careful of what you wish for...you might get it" comes from?

The solution is to put yourself closer to where you want to be and do it without the partner you are waiting for. If you want a prettier home, dress your house up. If you want a better social life, start socializing. If you want to live in San Diego, move. Half the battle in taking care of yourself is figuring out what you want. The other half is engaging in the process that will eventually get you there. As you get to know yourself better and begin to take action, you invest more energy in yourself and less energy in manipulating others. You are learning to control yourself, the only person you have any real control over. You empower yourself to meet more of your needs and, as you do, your contentment increases. You are more inclined to stay in the Here and Now because There is Here Now!

Bonus: As you live in the Here and Now, you are much more likely to attract the person you wanted in the first place! When you meet your emotional needs, you are more likely to make a love relationship work.

So, if you are seriously interested in recovering from love addiction, the best prescription is: Get A Life! What have you got to lose but your misery?

Love Theressa What a compliment. Thanks Theressa.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 07, 2000
Time: 03:09 PM

S1

Hi all, B. here,

Jay, my interactive board is: "B's Board: Working the Marriage". Search the site and it will show up.

Asha, No chance of getting hubby here... for now.

You say: "As long as you accept things you don't want to accept, your H doesn't have to change". Right, I agree.

I do have outside help every day, but it's not enough - and there's a limit to paid help...

Of course I respect my H's "no". But mostly the problem is not the "no" to my request, it's the passivity of not taking care of things UNLESS I ask.

Steve, You say: "To really get in touch with your feelings, and change them, you have to face the fear that is preventing you from doing that. Do you know what that fear is?"

No I don't, but when I read what you wrote I had a "bingo" feeling: Yes, it's a FEAR. I want to talk to him, but I'm afraid. Also, I feel that talking with him is like trying to change HIM, and I would rather change myself first.

I liked your story about giving 100. Actually, I've noticed that when I give up entirely on expecting him to share the load, when at the same time I'm very loving - he starts doing more and more, and taking responsibility! It probably has something to do with the fact, that when I "expect" him to help he "senses" it subconsciously and reacts to that as a pressure. When I let go of my expectations and my anger about doing everything, the pressure is off him, but he also does not feel "punished" for "not doing anything". So he is relieved of his own feelings of guilt, uselessness, inadequacy etc.

Hey! Could that be IT? Could that be the answer I was looking for? Let myself be totally ME, i.e. self sufficient, PLUS be loving to him? But that sounds suspiciously like the "good old" co-dependent pattern, doesn't it? I'm confused!!!!

Thank you everyone who tried to help me! I am still thinking about everything you said and trying to learn. Going to read CatBox 10 now! B.

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 07, 2000
Time: 04:56 PM

S1

Astrid

I think what Steve is getting at with the 100/0 giving idea is that by giving up expectations of a particular outcome you free yourself up to make choices based on reality, not on what you 'wish' the other person would do. He doesn't mean 'sacrificing' i.e. giving when you don't want to, or putting others needs/wants before taking care of yourself. He means total acceptance of what "is". I think this idea honors the fact that you can't control others behaviors, and when you give 100 you won't be giving resentfully or out of manipulation, and you won't be disappointed if the other person doesn't give back. You may however, become more selective of what, and to whom you give. Get what I mean? I think it's a more empowered way of looking at giving. The problem with a lot of people is that they give with an expectation of a certain outcome, and then if that outcome doesn't happen they feel like martyrs. It's just one way of wording it - the 100/0 probably brings up visions of 'overgiving' or putting up with misbehavior from your partner; I don't think this is what Steve meant. I like the concept though.

Jay - I don't understand the question about control to Steve (I may have I missed something). I can tell you from my perspective that he has been doing extremely well in 'not controlling'. Maybe he'll slip - he probably will, but I see that he is really growing. The neat thing is that it's not so much about 'trying hard' it's about changing old patterns. To me, he appears far more relaxed than he's ever been. Great! Letting go is much less work...

And thanks, I do take credit for me. The earlier me was fine too - I just didn't have all the tools and knowledge to make better choices. I'm also lucky because Steve has made choices I'm happy with. If he hadn't, I'd still be okay, though - it's a bonus that he's made choices I like. Yeah!

You sound strong, and I like that you're moving right along in your quest for positive change. Good for you!

<<Of course I respect my H's "no". But mostly the problem is not the "no" to my request, it's the passivity of not taking care of things UNLESS I ask.>>

B - the reason I spoke about respecting the 'no' is because I myself could not respect it. I knew that living that way was unacceptable to me, so if I respected the 'no' it would mean facing the fact that I couldn't live with certain things. If he does do things when you ask, maybe it's not so bad. You have to remember that it's not his pattern to know to take care of these things - his upbringing didn't teach him that. Maybe if you ask regularly (and he continues to co-operate) it will eventually become his new pattern.

<<when I read what you wrote I had a "bingo" feeling: Yes, it's a FEAR. I want to talk to him, but I'm afraid. Also, I feel that talking with him is like trying to change HIM, and I would rather change myself first.>>

This is interesting, because I recently realized that I haven't always asked for what I want clearly either. I would say things like "can WE clear out the gutters", or I would say "such and such needs doing" instead of clearly asking "Steve, will you do the dishes tonight?" Good! (And accept a negative answer when given).

Sounds like both of us are afraid to "want" anything from our partners. Rather silly, isn't it? I think we have to see it as changing *ourselves* because we are learning to honor ourselves by clearly asking for help from our partners. The self-work we need to do is to learn not to be over-responsible, and to honor our partners by allowing them to also be responsible, and by giving them ample opportunity to do so. Sounds good.

I think what you said about giving up expectations makes sense. That's what I meant by respecting 'no'. Then there's no temptation to manipulate the partner into doing what you want them to do. The co-dependent pattern, in your words, is the SACRIFICING. Respecting no, giving 100/0, or in other words total acceptance of other's choices is not sacrificing - it's facing reality, and working within it.

Take care everyone.

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, November 07, 2000
Time: 06:27 PM

S1

Happy election day (at least for some of us)! hahahahaha! Boy do some of you non-cat type humans know how to make a mess of that!

I wish I had time to write in-depth posts like the rest of you; I really appreciate and learn from them! I never seem to have a solid block of time where I'm sure that I'll have complete privacy.

Theressa, I'm not sure what you're asking regarding the telemarketers. I guess I'm saying why not just say "I'm not interested" and hang up? Why does he need to be confrontational? I agree that those calls are a pain, but the people are just trying to earn a living. As I said, my older son was one for awhile, called for all kinds of companies and organizations, and was pretty good at it: he earned lots of bonuses. But he quit, in large part, because he couldn't handle the rudeness anymore.

As for the George Bush remark, if my husband weren't so smart alecky as a rule, it wouldn't have embarrassed me as much. I must add that I am much less embarrassed and upset these days as in years past. I used to think that his rudeness reflected on me somehow. Now I understand that it's about him and reflects him, and that the person he's directing it at doesn't automatically think I'm the same way.

The discussion of the 100% rule is interesting. I do think it is difficult if not impossible to not want or expect a return of some kind on your investment in a relationship. Yes, you do have the option to move on if the other person isn't giving anything back, but most people, in my opinion, tend to want to hang in there and hope that things get better. So they live with the inequity. In other words, it's not so simple to say "Okay, you're not giving back--goodbye"!

Religious upbringing: I was raised in a small church (1960's era) where the prevailing attitude was "Trust in the Lord and everything will be okay". Nothing wrong with that, but I remember some women whose husbands were alcoholics, and/or didn't share their wives' religious convictions. I wonder if any of these women would have ever seriously considered separation or divorce--I doubt it!

The idea was that marriage is forever, and if it takes that long for him to come to his senses, you stay strong in your faith and pray for the grace to deal with him. Again, this is a personal decision. I wonder, though, how many people use this kind of thinking to avoid thinking for themselves and perhaps taking action.

My husband doesn't have the religious "the husband is the head of the home" viewpoint; in fact, he blows off any references I make to the biblical view of marriage. He was raised in the Catholic church, so you see that his attitude is quite different from that of the church.

Gotta run. Oh! BTW, Astrid, from one brown haired, green eyed girl to another, I think blonde, blue eyed princesses are a dime a dozen, and way too dependent on the guys on white horses. Have you ever read The Practical Princess? That was one of my sons' favorite books when they were small. It teaches a valuable lesson about not being helpless, and shows that a girl can be IN CHARGE!

(I loved Beauty and the Beast when I was a kid--how ironic is that!)

See you all later,

Becky

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 08, 2000
Time: 01:07 AM

S1

Becky:

You said: <<The idea was that marriage is forever, and if it takes that long for him to come to his senses, you stay strong in your faith and pray for the grace to deal with him. Again, this is a personal decision. I wonder, though, how many people use this kind of thinking to avoid thinking for themselves and perhaps taking action.>>

I think the problem with this is that by staying, some of their partners don't have incentive to 'come to their senses'. As you said, I think that some people use religion so they don't have to be completely responsible for themselves. It's easier to say, "the scriptures say... " And you can pretty much define the scriptures to fit any belief you want.

I like the idea of marriage as forever - putting up with the good and bad. But when poor treatment or abuse is involved, you aren't doing favors to the abuser by tolerating the behavior. Still, every situation and every person is individual. It's definitely not easy - simple to understand maybe, but not so simple to carry out. I think most people like the idea of "happily ever after". That's why it's so jarring when it doesn't happen that way. I also think that creating distance is a process for many people who find they are in abusive relationships. I think a lot of people go through stages of preparation until they reach a point where they really feel the only ultimate solution is to leave.

I'll bet your husband has a good core deep down, but doesn't have a clue how to access it. He must feel really out of control to want to control so much. I just hope you don't wait until all your love from him drains away before you see what could happen if you separated. But you also have to be ready for either outcome. He might change for the better, or remain in denial. If financially and emotionally you were able to leave do you feel he would physically threaten you in any way?

Seeing what's happened with Steve gives me compassion for your H. Your H's behaviors are unacceptable, but life would be so much happier for him if he faced up to his problems because you were no longer available to look after his needs.

I honestly didn't think Steve would make the kind of transformation he's been making. And what's great is, *he* is the one who is benefiting most. That's cuz Steve is a cat-human. Like *Me*

take care Becky

Asha

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 08, 2000
Time: 07:06 AM

S1

Hi, it's B. Purrrrrrrrr

Asha, you say: "Sounds like both of us are afraid to "want" anything from our partners. Rather silly, isn't it? I think we have to see it as changing *ourselves* because we are learning to honor ourselves by clearly asking for help from our partners. The self-work we need to do is to learn not to be over-responsible, and to honor our partners by allowing them to also be responsible, and by giving them ample opportunity to do so."

Yes Yes YES!

That's it! That's what I was looking for! My heart knew it inside, but I (I = my conscious brain??? :-) ) could not put my ~~finger~~ paw on it! I really have to print out what you've said here! and re-read it 3 times daily, like a medicine. I AM afraid to "want" or "need" anything from him, but on the other hand I do need and do want. I just realized I've lived like that since childhood: I learned I had no chance of getting my needs met, and "wants"?! My father had a saying about that (untranslatable to English), which basically meant: "so you want... so what?" (though he always tried to help me). My mother simply showed me my needs don't count by never remembering them, then ignoring them when I tried to express them, and ordering me to give them up for my younger sister's needs. I learned to be a very very very "independent" and "self sufficient" little helper. I bet most of you have a similar story!

By the way, that's why I suspect all those experts that recommend "teaching children independence". All they advise seems to be "refuse to fill the child's needs, so that he/she will learn to be independent". Sorry, dumb experts, you mean make the child into a victim like you!

Oh Dr. Irene, I bet you want to write here: Hey, B. have you noticed how angry you sound? Mommy says she thinks it's real cool that you're mad!

Yes, yes, I have. I am angry (i like it when Richard Gere says to Julia Roberts in "Pretty woman" when they're in the bath tub: "I am ANGRY, I am angry with my father! It took me 3000 $ and xx years to say that" [he paid his therapist to learn to say that... and then revenged by ruining his father's company and making money from it...]) LOVE to all of you.

PS. I didn't read all the posts yet, but Astrid and Becky have brown ~~hair~~ fur and green eyes? Funny, me too! And I don't like blue eyes or blond. I was so glad my daughter has brown ~~hair~~ fur and eyes! She's beautiful like her father (oh, yes, my H looks like an Italian model in my eyes, or Gary Cooper, or Greg from Dharma and Greg if you watch it). B.

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 08, 2000
Time: 07:15 AM

S1

Hi, jay again,

Asha, the comment relates to an earlier post by Steve where it looks like he is saying only men are controlling. I just admire both of you so much. Just wish the same things would happen with me and my husband.

B. I am sorry about my son's post on your site! I will read it later.

I am still away from home but coming back for my son. I wish I really knew what I wanted in the long term. Staying away at night feels weird but I get so much more sleep being out of it for a bit. Saw the therapist this morning and yet again it is back to me being too much into blaming myself and justifying everyone else's unacceptable behaviour. Any ideas on how I change this?

Just now I wish I could be really hard. But it goes wrong when I try to be. I just mustn't come back home without progress that benefits me. This is so hard as all possibility of progress is blocked by my husband.

Love, Jay

B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, November 08, 2000
Time: 11:46 AM

S1

Hi All,

I need some support in my next step. I understood what Becky meant when she said I could have said "I am not interested when my ex rang at the party the other night. OR maybe I could say don't lecture me.

I am trying to learn to remove fear, obligation and guilt from my life and its hard work, changing these patterns. Though I need some input. Last night my ex rang me at my nan's house. It was 7.45pm. He said "I want to see what work the decorator has done." [He is paying the decorator to decorate MISSY's room] WHAT DID I DO? you guessed it I got up and went straight to my house to let him in. My nan said "Theressa you jump for that man like your on hot coals". I didn't think about it until later. SHE is correct. I always have jumped for him like I am on hot coals when ever he asked. OH BOY what a realisation. I was watching a tv show and enjoying it but when he rang, HIM FIRST and forget that I planned to watch the end of the programme. I felt guilty that I'd kept MISSY up and what would he say. IRRESPONSIBLE I FELT, having MISSY out so late. I went out cos the decorator was in and I couldn't sit in peace.

The fear that drove me to hop up and jump as if on hot coals bothers me. IS THIS CO-DEPENDENT??? I think it is!!! do you all agree?? Would I have been better saying I am coming home at 8 o'clock. And if he said well I am waiting I should say: That's up to you, I'll be home at 8 o'clock. THIS IS SCARY FOR ME!!! why? well he might lecture me. Maybe I could say don't lecture me. I'd feel guilty keeping MISSY up late. [Is this guilt called for??]

As I say he came to see the decorating. I had a headache and just wanted to sit down. MY ex said "I'll put the kettle on and you can make a cuppa. I've been working all day." [Do I have a choice??] I s