Comments for Calling All Controllers
Material posted
here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a
substitute for informed advice from your own health care provider.
Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos
Copyright© 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for
non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For
commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, April 25, 2000
S1
Build it, and they will come!
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2000
S1
Dr. Irene:
Thanks for addressing this issue head on. It's not a pretty picture.
I wish I had a clue about this before my spouse left. It's the old saw about life being a poor teacher. You get the test before you get the lesson.
Peter Hi Peter. Yes, I hear you; your comment is universal. You didn't hear it when she tried to tell you; you couldn't hear it. But, and I hear this over and over, she did try to tell you... This is a good topic to get into, discounting the feedback. You work on this control piece each and every time you "do nothing" and "let her be" thus accepting another person's view of the world as valid, like it or not. You never learned to do this... That's why "letting her be" is so difficult now... You didn't do this on purpose... Each time she said something that seemed un-OK to you, you argued it (vs. hearing it and taking it seriously...). It didn't seem like a big deal... This not having a clue is a BIG one...
For victims reading this, know that in most cases, you were not not heard on purpose or out of malice. The "reasons" rattling in your beloved's head each and every step of the way were the obstacles to this person's ability to hear you... And the cause of the oppositionalism you experienced - made it feel like pulling teeth at each turn.
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2000
S1
Well, here's one from (sort of) the middle of the fence. Used to being the nice girl, submissive, bent over backwards to be exactly what my partner of the time wanted. To a point. There are certain lines that I have never allowed to be crossed: unprotected sex with another partner, physical abuse, and coming between me and the friends that make up my "chosen family" are the three major ones. But as long as those lines were not crossed, I was mud in their hands.
That ended when I found out that the guy I was head-over-heels infatuated with at the time was just sort of using me as a stopgap, and his quiet friend showed up to help me pick up the pieces. (I found out later that he was very aware of, and very angry about, the whole situation with this other guy and me and the other girl.)
For the first time in years, I had someone who wanted me at the center of his world. I warned him, half-kidding, that I don't do well on pedestals. And I guess you could say I took advantage of the situation in some ways. I'm older and have more money (also not a normal situation for me) and more education and more "experience" in various realms, and I started using that as "I'm right and you're wrong" in quite a lot of situations.
We started fighting. I'd sit there picking apart something he said as sarcastically as I could manage, for no good reason, and eventually he'd blow up and walk out for a bit, then when I calmed down I'd find him standing outside crying. This happened in my house, in restaurants, even (once) at a friend's house. Things would get worse, then better, then worse again.
There finally came a point where he just quietly said to me "please stop beating me up." That's what led me to the web search that made me find this site. I started reading a bit and learning some things but knowing what to do and doing it are two different things. There came a fight that was very nearly the last straw for both of us last Christmas. It's still a snapshot in my mind of both of us at our worst, and a very effective wake-up call.
Admittedly, we've got a peculiar situation -- instead of both identifying as victim, we (for the most part) both identify as controller. Me, probably because I watched my best friend in living hell thanks to an abusive SO and can't stand the thought of letting myself be abused -- even thinking of myself as abusive is somehow preferable. And he still seems to think that if abuse is taking place, it must be the man that's doing it, barring some truly extreme evidence to the contrary. Who knows, maybe we both have codependent tendencies and are trying to provide for each other an atmosphere of conflict in the style we're used to. *laughs a bit* Yes, you do both have codependent tendencies, no doubt.
We still like as well as love each other, for all that, and we're trying. Both catching ourselves when we mess up, and realizing we have the right to say to the other "Don't DO that!" Things seem to be getting better. Not completely, but I don't feel as out of control and my fiancée has mentioned that he notices I seem to be more patient with him. (Progress is good ...) :) You are lucky you still both have each other.
Hmm. That's my story, or as well as I can manage at this absurd hour of the night. :)
Comment: It is hard for those of us who see ourselves as abusive or controllers, even a little, to deal with the main message boards sometimes. It scares me, personally, because reading the boards makes me want to be able to see myself as 100% victim and justified in everything I do. The rest of the site has me agreeing with Dr. Irene that there are many cases that aren't so clear-cut, and I know mine is probably one of those. Yep. Most people's cases are not clear cut. Victim in one relationship; abuser in the next. Sometimes victim and abuser in the same relationship... Not uncommon. That's why I would like to get away from the black and white of 2 camps and just talk about controlling behaviors, angry behavior, etc., etc., etc. I either feel like the other posters are trying to talk me into seeing myself as firmly on the victim side (which I know is grossly unfair to my fiancée and counterproductive to the work I'm trying to do), or I feel like the "regulars" (who seem to almost all be victims) would rather turn the boards into a victim-oriented place. See how big victim anger and control is? And that bothers me due to how it's advertised. I guess you could say it messes with my mind a bit. I agree - and have been at a loss as to how to balance the scales. Peter is right. Something along these lines is long overdue.
OK, enough rambling. Sorry so long. :) Stop with the sorrys! (Your codependence is showing.)
-AngryGirl
Here is an email I got today (4/26/00):
Love your site. Disagree with you vis-à-vis the following quote from your
most recent article, Calling all Controllers:
"Why? My guess is that controllers, who believe it is their victim's job to
provide for their emotional needs and wants, are relatively content as long as
they get most of what they want and have someone to dump their frustrations on
when they don't. Most controllers I've run across are not "bad"
people; some are (but then again, so are some victims). Nevertheless, in the
victim-controller relationship, it is the victim who is most unhappy and
frightened. The victim is more likely to seek support." (Bold mine - Your boldface got wiped out before I got it.)
Dr. Irene-- I don't believe there are any "bad" people. Sure,
I'm splitting hairs, and for all intents and purposes, the sort of people I
imagine you are talking about probably need to be regarded as "bad",
so that the rest of us can protect ourselves - but to me-- these people are the
most lost, helpless people in the world, who have lost their soul, their
humanity, and are acting like predators. I pity these people. Yes. We agree. Just so we don't waste time with
abstractions - I have in mind a man who, say, beats his wife and kids every day,
with no remorse, and will not change. You might say, he's Bad.
Maybe. I would say, He's gone. Yes. Very gone.
What's left is a creature on automatic pilot. Yes.
Ok, so maybe I am splitting hairs. I still don't think that would make him
"bad", just a person who does horrible, horrible things. Please note: And someone
who, maybe, in the future, may still, miraculously turn around -
(Saul/Paul, or the story of the Nazi who became a nurse and a saint in the
village he fled to in South America). Yes. This is a
wonderful form of rebirth. Unfortunately, for every one of those Nazis who went
to South America to become a Saint, there are probably hundreds who went to
terrorize others. Yes, t
You have such a great site. I suspect you have helped so many women and men.
I have read your list on giving up controlling behaviors
about 40 or 50 times. Some of your recommendations I didn't understand at
first, but now I do. :) I still get angry,
but when I do, I just sit down and let it wash over me, and try to act normally
with whomever I'm talking to, even though something they've just said has
bothered me ( for no good reason, I might add.) Although even if I felt I
had a reason, now I would take about 20 seconds to formulate what I wanted to
say- or even if I wanted to respond at all, to a "legitimate dis".
:) :) So much can just be ignored, if
I let it. ) Eventually the pain goes away, and everything is normal again. Just watch that you don't poo poo legitimate stuff, even if it's
"no big deal" and just brush it under the rug - vs. deal with
it! Well, I guess I am out of things to say, I just wanted to say
again what a great site you have. I can't wait to log in and read the
letters and see what you have to say. Sometimes I try to predict what you
would say, I turn it into a game. Ok, you're a very busy doctor, so I'll let you
get back to your patients! Damian Not too busy
for you Damian. Thank you. Dr. Irene
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, April 26, 2000
S1
Dr. Irene:
I've read this article several times now. I think it is really insightful, although parts of it are very hard to take - like the part about the victim being "relationship ready." Believe me, they are, and it really hurts to see it happen. Yes. They don't push away, though they have their own intimacy issues.
Anyway, I've copied my brother and even my estranged wife and both gave it rave reviews.
I almost wonder if this article couldn't be expanded into a book. I don't think I've seen anything out there that specifically deals with the aftermath of the broken down relationship and "what next?" from the perspective of the perplexed controlling partner.
Peter Want to help me write it? Seriously...
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 27, 2000
S1
Dear Dr. Irene;
As a recovering controller, I have found your site most helpful. I too feel that more of the emphasis falls on the victim, and could very well be for the reasons you stated. I believe my reluctance comes from being overly cautious of what I say and examining my feelings for control issues. Also, I feel that in my situation the lines between victim/abuser are so very blurry and I hesitate to say anything like that for fear of backlash. I see a lot of man bashing going on the bulletin board and I really don't care to get into it. It does upset me somewhat but as I heal, I realize more and more that I cannot change anyone's mind and what they believe only affects me if I let it. Letting go of a lot of past habits has been my best therapy. I would like to learn more about how men (mostly) come to act this way and if you feel society as a whole is really changing the way boy children are raised. I feel strongly that societal norms and traditional values (that have become twisted) are still a major problem with how our children are being raised. Thank you for your site and for not taking a side, realizing that both sides are in need of different kinds of help. Your wisdom is this area is apparent and refreshing, especially when compared to some yet prevailing feministic or machismo attitudes in our world. Thanks. Thank you.
cc
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 27, 2000
S1
Dr. Irene, This article is a great addition. I'm a victim, but would like to comment on it anyway. You mention that the controller is less likely to look for help because as long as they get what they want or have someone to dump on they are content. I think another factor is that getting help is seen as weak and gives up control. Absolutely. Would enlightened or former controllers confirm that or not? Something I wonder about - what implications does it have if the controller is suspicious that a therapist would "talk about" him, and therefore won't go? How about reverse psychology, such as "I don't think we should get counseling" or "This book about Verbal Abuse is worthless and I hope you never read it". It sounds goofy but I thought it might be worth a try? Let's see if any controllers give you an answer.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 27, 2000
S1
A comment to the victim that posted suggesting reverse phyc. Isn't reverse phyc just another form of manipulation? In regards to your query about seeking help equates to giving up control; that may be very true.. perhaps even more of a issue is that the controller does not feel he/she is in error and why would they seek help where help is not needed. Correct. However, once realization sets in, therapy is almost necessary in order to begin the self examination and change of mindset that is necessary for real change to take place. I feel that it is unfortunate that so many Ts are not well studied in this area and seem more intent on convincing their clients that they are not to blame. Agreed.
cc
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 27, 2000
S1
I feel I need to comment upon your "crash course" list for abusers. You mention spirituality, and I beg to differ on that point. While abusers tend to have poor coping and social skills, they are not generally non-spiritual, and atheists are not prone to be more abusive people. In fact, I have found that more devout people tend to be abusive and controlling, using their spiritual beliefs as another way in which to control their victims; they support and even supplement their own rules with dogmas from their religion. For example, in Catholicism, disregard for both women and children runs rampant and is even promoted by biblical teachings. I do hate to make a big deal of one misconception in an otherwise wonderful article, but I must bring it to attention that lack of spirituality in not a prerequisite to being an abuser. You are correct. Many religious people are among the worst abusers. But, I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about spirituality. This has nothing to do with doctrine and everything to do with one's relationship to the self and the universe. At least, that is how I understand the term.
B1: Submit
Date: Thursday, April 27, 2000
S1
Dear Dr. Irene;
Love your site. It gives me a chance to examine parts of my life that I normally wouldn't. I find it very non-judgmental, even-handed and helpful. I am a controller, I use abusive behavior. That didn't hurt too much... you see, that's the first time I've ever admitted that. Great! Now you can start fixing it! I am just starting to get a handle on what that means. Now that I am aware of my destructive behavior, I see it everywhere. I am ashamed of this behavior and feel like a loser. Please stop the shame and self-abuse immediately. It won't help. Just get on with the business of taking care of it.
My wife of 4 years and I have separated. Our relationship, while full of passion was deteriorating. Arguments degenerated to physical assaults (from my wife) and were filled with names and accusations. Both of us thought (and could prove, of course) that the other was abusive. We decided on a amicable separation.
It was very difficult for me to accept the label of "abuser". I was abused as a child (emotion, sexual) and detested the very thought of abuse. I went through a lot of therapy to even get to this point. I feel overwhelmed at this point. I miss and love my wife, she echoes that sentiment.
This is why I am writing; I don't know if I can do this. I just feel like it is too much. Not that I don't want to do it, just like there is too much to change. I'm depressed and need some hope. Is there something you can say to help me hang on and work through this? Absolutely! Yes, there is much to change, but you've already done 50% of it by recognizing that you have a problem. You also sound depressed - ask your internist to check you out for medication which may ease the depression and make doing the work easier.
Thanks, Rick
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, April 28, 2000
S1
Thank you for the kind thought that we all may really want and need to grow. Thank you for a place to admit mistakes in a supported atmosphere. It is scary on this road, and painful that you can't go back and "fix it". But you can go forward and "fix it!" Sometimes we have the best of intentions and don't see the limits we place on our loved ones through our words - like you said-until they are gone. I sometimes think we learn that from our parents. Yep. (I also think that it is true we sometimes play both parts abuser/victim.) Yep. I myself am daily pained that I hurt such a precious soul - ever. I am practicing daily changing my self-talk and my verbal interaction with others. :) The more you practice this, the easier it gets; it becomes your new habitual way of responding. And worst of all, I hurt that while I seem to be slowly growing and gaining self-esteem, my ex seems constantly in a different painful cycle with a new lover, or poor relations with aging parents and siblings, and looks emotionally and physically worn. She's the only one who can fix that. (From what I can't be sure - all of the above - my old crap I dumped too?) Stop taking responsibility for another person! You've got enough on your plate just taking responsibility for yourself! I feel very sad and guilty. I can do nothing from where I am at except acknowledge my past poor behavior, give encouraging words, and pray. I blew it! I guess it's just done. My hope, prayer, goal - whichever you prefer - is to heal myself so I present the beautiful person inside me to others, and am able someday to create a real, warm, loving supporting relationship resulting in a beautiful marriage. :) I know that I too deserve this despite my mistakes. :) :) I am afraid however about how long this process will take. As long as it takes. This is one of life's realities that you just have to accept... I am regretful and lonely now!!!! But my heart is not strong enough yet.:( Any suggestions about how to deal with the pain of regret in the meantime? Yes. Feel it for a little while and get its message, but don't get stuck dwelling there. Use your energy in more pro-active ways. Spend it accepting things that "are." Spend it looking for the bright side of whatever situation... I don't throw my head into the walls and scream into my pillow every night any more, but it's been a total of 4 years. I feel like I'm losing my life. Time is precious!!! Life is about lessons. There is no such thing as "losing" your life. You are simply in the process of - learning how to - find your life! We almost reconciled once. I was asked to move back in and I was hesitant because I wanted to make sure we went to counseling-together and separately. Instead of a conversation about our fears - I got dumped again. Now that really hurt - because I worked hard on myself for me and for us - for the future we always talked about - and I was not about to give up on a healthy road. I'd hoped to have children and I could never without doing my utmost for a healthy relationship. Anyway, thanks for listening, and any pointers will be gratefully accepted. I do hope that what I've had to say is appropriate to this space-I was just moved somehow to respond. Very appropriate.
To Angry Readers:
What can I provide for you on this site that will help? Brainstorming is encouraged. Want your own message board? What do you want? Please post suggestions to this page. My very best, Dr. Irene
B1: Submit
Date: Sunday, April 30, 2000
S1
I don't know if I'm a controller or a victim? My husband is an alcoholic and he gets nasty if he doesn't have a drink. He dropped out of programs! I am doing everything around the house while he just sits in his "chair" and drinks. I keep threatening to leave but I don't because I am scared. For starters, either button your lip, or do what you must...
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 02, 2000
S1
Dr. Irene
For many years I have been married to a person who is a combination of controller/caregiver. She is a person who is at times the angry, verbally abusive, controller but is also an obsessive, over reaching caregiver. She sets a standard of care giving that I do not think anyone, let alone me or our children who have had to endure this can match and then becomes angry and abusive at the inevitable disappointment. The verbal abuse and the lack of empathy, even though both me and our children receive a lot of care giving, reinforces the lack of appreciation we feel since we do not want the care at the terrible price that must be paid for it. This leads to even more disappointment and anger until the she lashes out with even more verbal abuse creating a viscous circle of trouble. She often tries to exert control by attempting to make us feel guilty about receiving so much and inevitably angry for all the intentions we can not live up to. She also also displays other traits of abuse like not accepting that she makes mistakes like everyone else, engages in constant criticism, does not accept anyone's ideas but her own etc., etc. but the controlling/care giving is one of the biggest problems. She makes me and I am sure the kids sometimes feel like we are the controlling ones since in her words "we always get what we want." Is there anyone else like this? Are we really the controllers? I received this same question as an email advice and am turning it into an article. Please wait till I get it ready...
Confused Victim
B1: Submit
Date: Friday, May 05, 2000
S1
I put a post in last night and now it is not there. This is Wendy from Australia and I am so lonely and miserable and I need some help. Post again. Sorry for the problem...
B1: Submit
Date: Saturday, May 06, 2000
S1
Dr Irene, I am confused (yet again). My husband and I finally went to counseling after waiting a month for an appointment. On the way there he said to me "you're not going to bag me in there are you?" It made me feel very conscious of "putting him down" when we were actually in the session when I would be retelling an event. Also I was really surprised at the anger and emotion that resurfaced. The counselor was hopeless (did not know anything about P. Evans' book). I even felt that I had to defend myself with the counselor. For example, at one stage I was saying how my husband often retells an event very differently from what happened and that he constantly throws in my face that I flirted on New Year's Eve and I said this and that to him on the night (none of it true...merely trying to justify his insecurity). Well, the counselor turned around and said maybe we see flirting differently. I got angry and said "No, I will not justify this.....I will not validate this rubbish!"
My husband even started by saying he needed help with anger management and verbal abuse. She threw these words back in his face a couple of times...almost like she felt he was putting himself down.
Well, afterwards we both agreed we weren't happy with her. Not much discussion about this though as there was tension between us regarding some of the things I had brought up from the past. Now the counselor is ringing us for counseling over the phone (we live in an isolated community) and I feel so angry, I don't know what to say to her. You say what you think, calmly and firmly. But, it looks like you may need to go elsewhere. I am angry that I worked so hard to get my husband to that point and I feel like it was wasted time. For the rest of the weekend my husband and I got on surprisingly well and there was lots of compassion felt. But.......in the last week this anger inside of me has grown and grown. To the point where I have to try really hard not to make it obvious. And the confusing thing is I'm not sure what I am angry about. I just feel like all I want is quiet time. My desire for intimacy is nil and I rejoice when he walks out the door. I do not know what brought this on because on the weekend I felt okay. Hence, why I posted here. I am so confused about where I fit in. Why the anger? Where to now? Will it always be such hard work? Why does it feel I take three steps forward only to be knocked backwards four?
Rebecca Dear Rebecca, This is an email advice question; at the very least, you are posting to the wrong board... Meanwhile, check out Recognition of Abuse in Therapy.
B1: Submit
Date: Monday, May 08, 2000
S1
Aha!!! So this is where I'm supposed to post my comments. It took my a while to find it because I was wanting answers quickly. I'm very anxious to learn all I can and discover what it takes to break this vicious cycle. I am new to this site and I am a verbal abuser. I recently discovered this through a book that was used by my wife's counselor. I felt like I was looking in the mirror when I read about the different realities a verbal abuser is in. My main question is this: What book is the best one to start with if I'm a verbal abuser and I desperately want to change for my family and me??? My current situation is; My wife and I are barely together, she wants out, but she is a devout Christian and wants to do what is right in God's eyes. I respect her for that and I must be the man she needs me to be. It is very rocky right now but there is definitely hope. We are going to see some friends of ours for counseling tomorrow night. but, I need specific help with the verbal abuse. Given my situation in a nutshell, what book is best for me??? Please tell me. My email address is goforittim@aol.com just in case someone needs to tell me directly. Thank you very much and I look forward to seeing your response. I believe the book which I read parts of (she copied some of the applicable chapters to bring home to me) was, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship ." by Patricia Evans. Would this book help me much beyond making a verbal abuser realize he or she is in fact a verbal abuser? That's the first task. Recognize what you do. Read it. I only saw like the first 4 chapters. If this is where I should start, where then should I go next??? I want to change, and stay changed, not just until I'm satisfied with my security in my wife not leaving me!!! Tim Tim, then read the stuff in the Abuser's Section. There are book recco's there.
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000
S1
RE; "confused victim" This sounds a lot like my mom. Could this type of behavior have created a verbal abuser if raised in this type of environment? Also, I was sexually abused around the age of 5 by another male who was about 14. I saw someone ask a question earlier about what causes the abusers to be abusers. I don't feel as though the sexual abuse at age 5 was as much a cause as my mother, whose intentions were good, I'm sure. The sexual abuse was brief and most definitely confused me for a few years. But I believe my parents divorce, when I was about 9 had a lot to do with it also. I went to live with my mom after the divorce and she entered several abusive type relationships in the following years. I was exposed to her abuse (See Confused Victim) as well I was raised witnessing some poor examples of how to treat women. What do you think? Tim Victims of abuse, who don't know how to take care of their own emotional needs, let alone the needs of their children, are inadvertently abusive... Our best guess on why people grow up to be abusive is a mixture of the "right" biology with early parenting that frustrates the needs of the child.
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000
S1
Irene, Yes yes yes, please provide more info for the "Abusers"! Just look at all the titles of the books that are out on this subject. Even on this awesome site I'm having a hard time finding the right books that will help me while the "Victim" has a large variety to choose from. I know that there are a ton of people just like me that if they read some of this stuff describing themselves at just the right time, they too will realize "wow,...that is me!" "Now I know what she/he was trying to tell me!" People like me who are finally enlightened and realize the true reality of our situation need more help. Yes!!! There should be a link on the main Home page and at the bottom of each subsequent page; "Abusers who want to Change". And a list of the limited books teaching them how to change and why they do what they do etc. etc. etc. Please help, I'm ready and willing. Tim More abuser info is where we're going... Look at the Abuser Pages and on the Book Shelf for info and books for now. Dr. Irene
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000
S1
I have looked this site over for the past 4 hours since I got off work and I am gradually finding more information that I need. It's just that it does not seem real "User Friendly" at first. After a little searching around the site, I know my way around a little more and I'm starting to find some satisfaction in finding the answers I have been searching for. I have selected about 9 books from your Book List which I read the reviews on all of them. I may buy all 9 to save on shipping or I might just buy the ones that I feel apply to me right now. I probably would not be able to absorb 9 books like that in time to justify getting them all now. Geez, do I sound delirious or what? It's way past my bedtime, I'm going to get some needed sleep. I look forward to hearing the feedback to some of my postings from the last...jeez...6 hours!!! "INFORMATION OVERLOAD" :) I will talk to you tomorrow. Tim :)
B1: Submit
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000
S1
More comments about some of the comments here so far...
First of all, on the topic of spirituality. It can bring out the best and the worst any relationship has to offer. Some of the worst fights (at least the fights where *I* was at my worst) in my relationship were on this topic. My own religion has become such a central part of my life over the past few years that it sort of became part of my ego, and the thought that my beloved life mate (who was one of the reasons I became more spiritual) did not picture the divine in the same way I did or (in my admittedly screwy thought process) "take it all seriously enough" sent me over the edge into some serious irrationality. This did MAJOR damage to my relationship and to my fiancée's fledgling lack of atheism. I hope you realize that you mis-used spirituality in the name of control in this example. Spirituality per se doesn't bring out the best or the worst - it's what you do with it that has the intended or unintended effect. As in free will...
As one such argument was winding down, I offered to kick the subject off the table for the next six months *unless* he brought it up. He accepted. That was three months ago, and we were able to start talking about our faith and the slight differences we have a bit over a month ago. At first I felt almost as if I had betrayed myself and my "higher power" by even agreeing to this and feared having to make a "choice." I now realize that won't be necessary. :) :)
Secondly, "controller/caregiver" is a good description. At least it is of me. I have a serious tendency to take care of everyone but myself first and when the subsequent lack of sleep and proper food (a VERY bad thing for me since I'm hypoglycemic) makes me start feeling grouchy, I tend to start snarling at anyone who happens to get in my way. At the same time, I feel like I haven't done enough or it hasn't been effective enough more often than not. If I'm depriving myself of food and sleep, "ineffective" is probably pretty likely. I can't live up to my own standards half the time, and even though I tend to set less high ones for those around me, I *still* get impatient with them. I know I need to get off my own and everyone else's back, but it's difficult! Like father, like daughter. At least I can see where I get it from.... :) Good insight! :)
-AngryGirl
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000
S1
Update: My wife and I went to some good friends who are also counselors today. We told them our situation. Unfortunately I have told her so many times that I will change and did not succeed, now, when I finally discover what was causing a lot of our problems all along: "verbal abuse", she does not believe it will be any different.
It's hard to explain, but in the past, I was so far off base in another reality, that now that I am finally focusing on the root cause of the problem and actually seeing my verbal abuse for what it is... I've cried wolf too many times basically. I must "show her" I really mean business this time and seek counseling for me, to heal myself so that we can then work on the normal marriage challenges like communication etc. Yes! One major problem is that her spirit is broken, the trust is gone, the love is gone, even the like is gone. She must go on sheer faith, if she even goes on at all with our marriage. I bought the books today; "The Verbally Abusive Relationship .", (for her and I), "Getting The Love You Want: A Guide For Couples" (For her and I also), "How to Forgive When you Can't Forget: Healing Our Personal Relationships" by Charles Klein (for her in dealing with our past), and "Living With the Passive-Aggressive Man : Coping With Personality Syndrome of Hidden Aggression-From the Bedroom to the Boardroom" (mainly for her and maybe for me) and also for me "The Feeling Good Handbook". These ought to keep me busy for a while. Tim
B1: Submit
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000
S1
Tim- I think it's important that abusers read books that deal with the effect of abuse on women. After all, how do you know if you REALLY are in her reality yet? You thought you were many times before. The problem with my recovering abusive boyfriend is that he thought he was 'there' over and over when he clearly wasn't. Read "Survivors of Verbal Abuse Speak Out. " and "The Verbally Abusive Relationship ." first! (my recommendation..) Then read "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them" by Dr. Susan Forward. Also, be careful about giving her that 'forgive and forget' book, after all, she may not be ready to forgive you! Let her do that in her own time, forcing it upon her will be seen as abusive, even though your intentions are good. Good luck to you! -SatokoGirl
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Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000
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I would add to what SatokoGirl said that while forgiveness is good (and very necessary!), forgetting can be a bad thing. Forgetting gives a chance to have everything kicked back into the unconscious, and then the old patterns repeat -- either the things in your relationship that you're trying to change don't change, or stuff from way back when you were a kid floats to the surface and causes trouble.
Even (maybe especially) when there's been abuse, I think that people have to remember that work on a relationship is an ongoing process, not just something to "fix" what is broken, and once it's repaired you're all done. The control and abuse that have already happened in a relationship can't be undone, and in my opinion shouldn't ever be completely forgotten. Forgiven is another matter. :) And I'm not saying that the person-identifying-as-victim who chooses to stay with a reformed controller has the right to throw the past up in his/her partner's face every time s/he's the least bit upset -- that can itself be abusive IMHO.
But, to my way of thinking at least, keeping the consciousness that one or both of you are *capable* of doing something that harmful is important to the safety of the victim and to the sanity of both parties. And that allowing something harmful to be done to you is important to the sanity and integrity of both parties...
-AngryGirl
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Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000
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In response to AngryGirl, you wrote:
"It is hard for those of us who see ourselves as abusive or controllers, even a little, to deal with the main message boards sometimes. It scares me, personally, because reading the boards makes me want to be able to see myself as 100% victim and justified in everything I do. The rest of the site has me agreeing with Dr. Irene that there are many cases that aren't so clear-cut, and I know mine is probably one of those. I either feel like the other posters are trying to talk me into seeing myself as firmly on the victim side (which I know is grossly unfair to my fiancée and counterproductive to the work I'm trying to do), or I feel like the "regulars" (who seem to almost all be victims) would rather turn the boards into a victim-oriented place. And that bothers me due to how it's advertised. I guess you could say it messes with my mind a bit..."
I agree with your overall premise here. That has been part of my frustration as well. I know that when I joined one list in particular I was coming from the angle of victim/abuser/controller in that I tolerated mental, physical, emotional and verbal abuse for almost four years with my SO. Eventually, I acted out and became controlling myself.
Since I did not justify my acting out by blaming it all on him (I took responsibility for my own words/actions) and since I became controlling and admitted to it (i.e., I was GOING to FIX him no matter what, to suit ME!) I was immediately told that I was not behaving "like a victim should" therefore I "must be an abuser in disguise" (what disguise? I came out and admitted I was abusive at times!) and "did not belong" on a support list for victims. That's why I had to come up with an "advanced" recovery list, I am Responsible. Victims have to go through the stages they have to go through. My hope is they don't get stuck in anger and validation.
From my observation, if no abusers are allowed on that particular support list, half the people there would have to leave themselves, since they have exhibited everything from controlling behavior to abuse themselves. :) Although they have determined that it is DIFFERENT when they do it because it is "justified." From time to time I see victim/abuser couples where the now-empowered former victim is so justified and brainwashed with the not tolerating abuse stuff, that she has become an absolute horror... And doesn't want to hear otherwise.
For example, one in essence said, "If I yell at my DH and tell him to F off that does not make me abusive. He deserves to hear that because of how he treats me. I have the right to be angry!" Right. This is so typical... And I would say to them, "You have the right to feel angry, but check how you behave. You need to sharpen your assertion skills. Otherwise, in the end, you diminish your own integrity."
I am currently in an abusive relationship with a relative but receive little support mainly because I am one of the few who says, "He is abusive, but I have problems, too!"
Heaven forbid I acknowledge my part in the abuse. There is a pervasive underlying message from many of the victims there that one cannot be both, you are either a victim or an abuser, case closed. Which, if I was not at a stronger point in my life, would have initially made me high tale it out of there. It's so sad. Just another example of jumping on another emotional bandwagon - and not dealing with the self.
Perhaps I should use the past tense referring to the above. I have seen some changes, and some new people joining who are in a similar boat. Usually they just send private E-mails to me, but some have the courage to post. They want to vent about being a victim, receive support and validation, but also be able to acknowledge their own behavior without being told they need to go somewhere else to do that. That's what the advanced list is for. To quote myself, "No whining allowed."
I think abuse is wrong. That's the only aspect of all of this that I feel black and white about. Whether it be an abuser, or a victim acting out, or abuser/victim - abuse is abuse. Yes.
Your post really reminded me that I needed to vent today about this! Thank goodness there is a safe place to do that. I certainly do not agree with everyone at this site, that would be impossible, but I have learned an immense amount and found so many answers - it's been a life preserver for me. Thank you.
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Date: Saturday, May 13, 2000
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Oops, I forgot to add that this is why for the most part I have a need to be on several lists. Is there one anywhere that is specifically for a victim/abuser? Victims who act out? Or just someone who wants to say, "I am in an abusive, controlling relationship and retaliate in kind at times. So I need to work on BOTH issues."? This way those victims who do not want to take responsibility for their actions will not feel threatened by those who do. I don't always feel I Am Responsible completely either. Kind of stuck in the middle at times. This is appropriate for the I am Responsible List. But, if you feel the need for a new list or a new board, just ask.
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Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000
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Reading all the posts so far really emphasizes that there are many "variations on the theme". I see the point of the last poster, who wants other "Victim-Abusers" to come forward, and wants support for that situation. That's great for that person, but I hope it doesn't get mixed up with the situation where an Abuser tries to convince the Victim that (s)he deliberately (or subconsciously?) "provokes" and "irritates" and "questions (the authority of the Abuser)" and therefore is the one who "is in control here" according to the Abuser. There are probably many Abusers out there who would like nothing better than to have one more way to avoid responsibility for their problems. Maybe some sort of test could be designed to show people where on the "continuum" of V to A they fall (at the moment)? Seriously. I know what you mean. Unfortunately, I can't interview each of you and assign you to the appropriate category. So, it almost always falls to the victim to find the courage and power to challenge the abuser. Then, later in treatment, this same victim needs to acknowledge their own abusive control stuff while the abuser owns their codependence. Very blurry...
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Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000
S1
What the person responding to me said. :) The new thread that is responding to a controller was so hostile I couldn't even finish reading through it. I'm rather disturbed by the sanctity given to whoever gets the status of "victim". Although those of us who are controllers might sometimes seem dense, having victims vent their frustrations on us that they probably wish to on their own abusers doesn't even serve to put the shoe on the other foot for us so much as to make us think we're irredeemably evil. *shrug* You're not. That's part of the "equality" I promote on this site.
And an unrelated ramble: I've just finished the most helpful reading I've done in quite a while, and it was a work of fantasy fiction. Perhaps it will help others as well: Stormqueen! by Marion Zimmer Bradley. Thanks for the tip.
Without giving too much away, the title character has the ability to call lightning with only a thought or an impulse. More than once, she has used this gift to kill, even though she didn't mean to (for instance, she "struck out" at a kinsman who was attempting rape, to get him to stop and not realizing it would kill him). Dorilys manages to injure even those she loves best and is closest to because she can't control herself. :)
Though I certainly make no claim to be able to call lightning, the story made me think about how even someone who could say she is comparatively without power, and someone who doesn't physically strike another, can nonetheless cause pain and grief to the people she loves. I've been told many times that I have a way with words -- it is no more fitting for me to abuse that gift than it is for Dorilys to abuse her gift of weather control, which she can also use to (for instance) quench a forest fire.
-AngryGirl
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Date: Friday, May 19, 2000
S1
I'm a recovering controller. In part, I can thank your website and the many articles and e-mails that I've read. I also give the little book entitled, Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, a lot of credit in my recovery.
My wife left me a year ago. Now that I look back, I don't blame her. I was a jerk! The problem was -- and to some extent, still is -- I didn't, and sometimes still don't, realize I'm a controller until after I do what I do. Yes. You don't see it at the time...
Shortly after our separation she got involved with a new man. I was dumb enough to think I could even control that. I tried to point out all the negatives in this guy. For instance, the night I met him he talked about his wealth, large corporations, being a former member of the force recon in the USMC, and on and on he went. Every one of his claims were later proven to be false, and I thought it was my duty to point that out every time I had the opportunity. Being a marine, it wasn't difficult to figure out this guy wasn't in that unit. But, I still wanted her back.
Now I try to disappear if I run into her and her boyfriend in a social situation. I was by myself last week, when I saw them at one of the local dance clubs. I walked out and my ex-wife ran out to tell me I didn't have to leave just because they were there. "In fact," she said, "I might even ask you to dance." Like a fool I went back in. No, you were not the fool. She asked me to dance almost immediately. I accepted. Then we went back to the spot where her boyfriend was. She jokingly pointed to a picture of a beautiful woman and said, "did you like me better before I got my haircut?" Going along with the joke, I said, "yes, I liked it better like that," as I pointed at the photograph. With that her boyfriend grabbed both of her breasts and said, "after we grow her hair, we're going to work on her tits." Yuk.
Well, being a recovering verbal abuser, I have the ability to spot verbal abuse, or public degradation. It didn't bother me that night, but the next day my mind was on that from morning to night. I felt the need for a relapse. I felt the need to call her and point it out. I felt the need to write her an e-mail. I made it. I didn't call her and I didn't e-mail her. I'll just let her find out for herself. But I must admit it. It's hard to break old controlling habits. Yes...
I feel like it's almost a duty to try and control her. I wanted so badly to say, "he loves you for what he thinks you can be, not for who you are." Why should I even care? It's not my business. Correct. And I have no right getting involved. Yes. And I'll never hang around the two of them again. Like a drug abuser, I have to learn to stay away from certain situations that may trigger an old habit. Or, perhaps you need to learn to not let this type of thing bother you. Think of this as a goal, not for now, but in time...
George
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Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000
S1
I don't think a support list for victim-abusers would be good for just "that person," I think it would be good for a lot of victims who behave abusively and then blame it all on the abuser. :) Each has to take responsibility for their own issues. I think the reason the concept frightens so many victims who act out is because they fear if they admit they have problems too, then they can no longer say it's all the other person's fault that their life is such a mess. It's denial and an avoidance of responsibility. The abuser is going to blame them for everything anyway but this way the victims can see how they contribute to the dysfunction in their relationships and take steps to correct that. Some victims do just what you describe. Other's don't. Just as there are controllers and there are controllers, there are victims and there are victims...
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Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000
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To the last poster: not all victims "act out" in response to abusers. I guess you could say some of us "act in". Maybe all victims do that initially - that's why they stay. But some of us continue to blame ourselves, and our abusers blame us too. In some corner of our minds, we know we do not deserve all this blame. But due to our childhoods and society's expectations for women in relationships...it comes naturally. Yes. And you have to stop that destructive tendency within yourself. I think the victims who turn the tables and become abusive are a step ahead of us in their own recoveries. I don't know, but I don't think it makes a bit of difference to the abuser. If he isn't ready to change, he is probably blaming his victim whether she is standing there cowering and thinking what a bad person she is, or yelling back at him saying what a bad person he is. But, the victim's behaving appropriately and expressing limits calmly is not about or for the abuser. The reason the victim needs to find that balance within the self is for the sake of the self... Think of this as a long-term goal to strive for.
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Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000
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I didn't say all victims act out at all. I am trying to understand control, how it is defined, and who it applies to. No one has the right to abuse another, there are no reasons for abuse, just excuses. No one needs to be blaming anyone either, because blame is a useless word, but I was pointing out that some often do. Yes.
What I was referring to is: I put up with my ex yelling and calling me names for years: b****, C***, and the like. So I started calling him names back. Or yelling back. Basically behaving like him. And then you start disliking the person you are becoming - just like he dislikes himself.
But I told him that HE was the one who needed help and I tried to make him get help, and in my codependency group I was told that is being controlling. Right. That instead of working on me I was putting all the focus on him, telling him what was wrong with him, what he had to do to get well, and never admitting I had a problem and that was unfair. All you can reasonably do is tell the other person they are hurting you and to stop it. If they don't hear you, you are left with little sane choice other than pulling away from the relationship - for your own sake. It is not OK to insist they change... The good news is that as you pull away, your partner's ears often pop open.
Because like you said yourself, not all victims are abusers, too, which means there is a problem inside of that victim who acts out which to me is abuse, and I don't see how they can heal fully if all they do is "blame" the abuser, "Well, I wouldn't behave this way if..." This is not OK. You made me do it doesn't wash.
If two people get into a domestic assault and both are injured, both will be arrested, often because it's considered mutual combat no matter who started it. I don't see how verbal abuse is any different if both participate in it. So all I wanted to know is if victims can be controllers, too, and how. Of course they can and there is angry victim stuff sprinkled all over the site. I should write more specifically on this... Thanks for the suggestion.
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Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000
S1
Very well said. I see your point clearly now. Just don't get brainwashed into thinking that your acting out caused you to be abused. Good luck with (or without) your relationship.
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Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000
S1
In reply to an earlier posting I can actually state that I was told that if I wanted my boyfriend to do something, I should ask him not to do it. I took this to indicate that he felt un-ok about saying no, but did not really know why he said no, or rather why he said no just because I asked. A more common pattern is to say yes when he means no and then to do nothing. So he says no when he has no real objection and yes when he does not want to do something. Look, you were given good advice because you have to start at the beginning. But, now you've been down the road and you know the game. Your choice if you want to play it.
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Date: Monday, May 29, 2000
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Date: Monday, May 29, 2000
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Date: Monday, May 29, 2000
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I have found that the underlying theme that connected me to any other controllers I read about was anger, lack of emphathy and an absence of love for themselves. In my case, and it seems to be true in a number of cases I have read about, the anger and the inability to love myself is the root of all this horror. If you really want to fix it, then you need to face the devel, go back to yur childhood and find out what the issues are, and learn to love yourself again. Once you get this part of it you can start to love others and to emphasize. In touch with your feelings lets you have feelings (for others). Sounds simple, but it's a difficult process. If you really love the person your with there sould be no lengths to which you'll go to fix the (your)problem. I'm working like hell to fix mine, I only hope I can get there in time.
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Date: Tuesday, June 06, 2000
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I think there is a lot of confusion here. Correct me if I am wrong. No behaviour is inherently abusive. Insulting one's partner in front of others is not generally considered acceptable but nevertheless it is up to the partner to set boundaries. Abusers will use certain strategies to provoke, but it is up to the partner to give feedback. I was the 'victim' in a relationship which I have just ended. And some of the things I did were potentially abusive. I shouted - but only occasionally. This bothered my boyfriend, though he wouldn't admit it. I tried to get through to him in many ways. always shifting my perrspective , trying a different angle to see if it would work. Was this abusive? I was asking for something and being told time and time again that he would not give it to me. In that sense it was abusive. However, I always asked in different ways, and never appealed to his emotions rather to reason, so in that respect it was possibly not abusive. One realises after a while that one is not going to get what one wants and gives up. But abuse, manipulation etc. are a matter of degree. Recently I have appealed more to my boyfriend's emotions - lots and lots of affirmations. And I made some progress - only to have him pull back. If that was acceptable to him it was not manipulative, although I found it a strange way to relate to an adult. Individual interactions are abusive or not depending on the motivation of the one and the way it is received/perceived by the other. An abusive relationship is one where one partner habitually resorts to abusive strategies, which bother/provoke the other (who may or may not report on his/her feelings). We are all abusive to some degree from time to time - we all forget ourselves. And an abusive relationship brings out the worst in victims as well as the abuser.
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Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000
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RE: the previous post, my wife did that with me, "trying several different angles to get through to me". I don't think it was controlling or abusive. She just loved me regardless of all the crap I was throwing at her and she was trying to find a way around it all that might work because nothing else did work. But later on she did start to abuse me back and provoke me etc. etc.. This was after her love had all but dissappeared for me and she did not want to try again for fear of exposing herself to hurt again. It took me a while to finally break through and show her I really meant business this time and I was going to fix myself so that we could have a normal relationship and a normal family. Tim
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Date: Friday, June 16, 2000
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I am controlling out of fear . All i have ever seen is dishonest woman who cheat. my ex wife women at work etc. my fiance is a very friendly person . i see it as flirtatious. that gets me going. how do i learn to stop and accept? any help please e mail shyswilli@aol.com .
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Date: Monday, July 17, 2000
S1
Hi' I was reading your article and I am a victim and learned over the years of abuse how to make him a victim too! I have never been victimized or maybe I was as a child and it was my mom who used to hit me and verbally abuse me and I ran away when I was 17 and made a real miserable life for myself. Anyway, i do believe that the way that I grew up has everything to do with the way that I am today 25 years after I became a grown up in a hurry. This is my third relationship and the worst so far and I still find myself loving this man who has hurt me so much. More verbal abuse than anything. After 6 months into the relationship he hit me for the first time. He beat me and then raped me. I felt sorry for him 3 weeks later and I was back with him. Only a month after that he beat me again the same way, rape and all that. Again, i forgave him but I never forgot, then about two months later he terrorized me for almost two hours. I forgave him. Then one day he was talking to his ex wife on the telephone and I was sitting right next to him and he was asking her about her private parts and if they were still looking and tasting good. I was more hurt than when he hit me and he tells me today that he did not think that we were in such a serious relationship. I thought to myself, "it is not a serious relationship and you could beat me and rape me? What kind of sh.t was that? I still stayed with this creep. Just going back makes me so angry. Anyway on Thanksgiving of that year 1995 I had the creep arrested for threating to hurt me physically again. He was locked up for only five days because nobody told me that I had to go to court and press charges against him and so for five days I lived in extreme fear for my life. He got out and called my mother and begged my mother for forgiveness and she called me and asked me to forgive him and I did. In january 1996 things were still not going well and he left. Three months later he returned with a few days notice. I was working and he made me quit my job. the first time that I had a real job and he made me quit. He told me that no woman of his had to work and that he could take care of me and my kids. Now, on top of all the abuse over the years I finally got tired of his violent temper and I had him arrested again and this time I knew that I had to go to court and I did what I had to do to put him away. He did only ten days in jail and is out now trying to make peace with me and telling me that he loves me and needs me and how he never knew that he was actually being abusive and how he did not know that I felt so bad about the way that he would treat me when he would tell me that I was not worthy of him and his money and how I did not have my body parts the way that he likes them to be and all those horrible things. Yes i am very angry too but at the same time I feel like i should give him yet another opportunity and only because he is asking for it. Personally if he would leave me alone I do not need him. I am so confused because now I think that if i reject him he will hurt me or himself. I do not want to hurt this man I just want him to go away like a bad dream?
chow