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Comments for Am I an Abusive Husband?

Comments for Am I an Abusive Husband?

Material posted here is intended for educational purposes only, and must not be considered a substitute for informed advice from
your own health care provider.

Courtesy of Dr. Irene Matiatos  Copyrightę 2000. The material on this website may be distributed freely for non-commercial or educational purposes provided that author credit is given. For commercial distribution, please contact the author at Doc@drirene.com

Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

He can't see things from any ones perspective other than his own. He doesn't want a wife...he wants a slave...he wants to be catered to. And host pity parties for himself. YUCK......YUCK....YUCK...... Being married to him sounds like being an indentured servant.... makes me want to run away from him....and I don't even know him. He is a control freak with a bad temper. Geez Jake....wake up... get real. I seriously doubt you would want to be treated the way you are treating your wife. With you ....everything is about mememememe. Selfish controlling men with bad tempers are not desirable Jake.

Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

You are telling me that I have to accept my wife's behaviour or leave her, because if I do not, then I am a controlling husband. Your are pro divorce, there is no question about it. I am not trying to control my wife's behaviour, but our marriage. Our marriage is going to survive or not, depending upon we change the things we do that hurts each other. If I do things that hurts her, I have to change does things and If she does things that hurts me, she have to change does things as well. Now, how do I let her know what are those things that hurts me? I have tried several ways, and I know I have had tried in some wrong ways. I know I have anger management problem, which I have worked to improve myself, and I have had major improvements. I do not explode as often as I have done in the past. I have controlled myself on this, but I am a human being, so there are times when I get out of control, but they are less and less frequent than ever before. She has even recognized that.

So losing control is the same as being a controlling spouse? No, I do not think so. I have even apologized after I have lost control on myself. I do not want a divorce, I want to keep my family together. Is that controlling? I bet you will say yes. I do not think trying to keep my family together is controlling. I do want to control, with her help, both of us, where our marriage should go and work. How do I do that? By telling her what are the things that hurts me, for instance. Have she changed her behavior on everything? No. But that is ok, with me. I know I do not owe the truth. But when she had not changed on something that I would like her to change or control on herself, showing some improvements, I tell her about it. What do I want? First, that she listen to me, then that she make the changes that need to be changed. But If she does not make the changes, then it is ok with me, as long as I have been listened to. If we listen to our spouse's feelings, there will be hope that changes will be made in the future. Why will I want to do something that hurts my wife? I do not and I bet she does not. So I do not think that by telling her my feelings, I am a controlling husband. I just want to be listen to, in the first place. Secondly, I am not telling her my feelings every time she hurts me, since I first try to see why they hurts me. But if it is a major issue, which it comes to that after time, then I let her know.

The problem here is that every time I want to tell my wife the things that hurts me, she brings 1,000 of issues to our discussion, and our talk becomes about the 1,000 other issues that she brings out. Was I listened to? No. Then my anger problem management shows up. What went wrong? Her 1,000 issues that she did not get resolved by talking about them one at a time, and forgiving when it was necessarily, and my anger problem management. Basically, we have communication problem. I have told her over and over again, that I have no problem on talking about her feelings one at a time, but she does not do that on time. She waits until there are so many to bring them up when I am talking about my feelings.

What do I do? I stopped talking about my feelings, and because she does too, we grew apart. Then after a while, she gets fed up I leave. Get the picture. I do not want to divorce, I married her forever, not until one of us gets fed up. I have tried several times to work on our communication problem, and I know she has too, but we have not been successful. Working on our communication problem is not controlling. Telling her about my feelings no matter how many times I tell her is not controlling. I just want to be listened to, in the first place, and that is not controlling.

Another thing, in my 5th paragraph I used the word "let", and I knew you would tell me what you told me. I used the word "let" in the sense of not telling to my wife that her coming back home late hurts me, because I will try to wait until she realizes her behavior was wrong. But they became more often than normal, so I brought that up, but as usual, she brought 1,000 other issues, and the cycle begins.

Finally, you tell me that "Divorce is about the last thing people in our crazy, high-divorce rate society needs". Do we let our crazy society needs influence us or do we influence our crazy society needs. I am sorry to telling this, but your influencing people to divorce, since they have to accept or leave, and that it is wrong. Have you thought about telling people to have patience and encourage them to try to find ways to improve whatever it has to be improved like the communication problem most marriages have. I have not yet saw any of your advices toward that direction.

Maybe there are situations that are extreme, but most of the time the people who comes here wants to hear from someone that their spouse is a controlling, mean, bad, horrible spouse, so they have the encouragement to divorce. Are you that person they want to hear from?

Lover, Jake.

Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

The first post says that "He can't see things from any ones perspective other than his own. He doesn't want a wife...he wants a slave...he wants to be catered to." I can tell that person has been in a bad marriage, and think that all men are the same, just as my mother in law. I have compassion for those person.

But first of all, I am a husband, a man, and not at fault for been one. I can see other peoples perspective, or at least I try. I have tried to see my wife's perspective, and some times I understand her and some times I do not. I have told her to keep telling me her perspective, but one at a time. Lets resolve our issues one at time. But she keeps bringing 1,000 of issues to the discussion table, and close to none gets resolved.

Do I want a slave? Do I wants to be catered to? No at all. I feel sorry for the person who commented that. He/she most likely has lots of anger. I want my wife, I love my wife as well as my family. I am committed to them. I will do whatever it is needed. I found out through this relationship, that happiness is giving more that receiving. I have given all the energy I have to this marriage, more energy I thought I would ever have, and I know I still have energy left to keep giving.

I have been told by my mother and my aunt that she does not deserve me, and they are the same people who told me I have things to change 3 years ago, and keep working my marriage. Why have they changed their mind? Because they have seen my improvements and that I have matured. My desire to keep my family together has been the force behind my desire to become a better person. But where do I hear that wife's have to change and to mature too. Not in here, obviously.

I feel sorry for badly treated wives, but we all have to improve yourself, not just men, and no, not all men are the same. For instance, I would think hundreds of times before I cheated to my wife, and I have not cheated, and I do not think I would ever do. But If I come home late, I most have been doing something bad since I am a man, but if she comes home late, it is ok since she is a good woman. Get the picture. For you badly treated wives, all men are the same, and influences other wives, who are married to good husbands. I try to treat my wife the same as I would like my father to treat my mother, and my sister's husband to treat my sisters.

But no matter what, I am not listen to anyone who will advice me on divorce. I am committed to my wife, and I want to love her like Christ love his Church. Then accept her Jake. After all, Christ did not like all the stuff God asked of him, but he accepted it - and did so with grace.

Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Jake, Take off the blinders and get some help. You could benefit from speaking to a professional therapist that is knowledgeable in abuse and control issues. Fix yourself. Don't try to fix others, it is not possible and it is totally controlling. Look deep within your own self, never using the words "she makes me feel" or "she caused this pain". Use only yourself and your life experiences to define your reality and then accept that it is just that: Your Reality! best of luck

cc

Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

My response to Jake is that he should read....and so should his wife.....the Patricia Evans book  The Verbally Abusive Relationship  on verbal abuse. It will enlighten both of them. Control/Anger is both overt (direct) and covert (indirect). I agree that he can't see beyond his nose at this time. Anger has a way of not allowing a person to be empathetic or open to constructive criticism. Jake doesn't seem to be either. He seems to be in denial about the whole thing and is focusing on himself only. He seems more worried about being the "bad guy" and what is wrong with Dr. Irene's advise on marriage. I hope he wakes up soon.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Look at it this way Jake. You tried it "your way", and it didn't work. You are separated and no signs of reconciliation. Why don't you try something new? Try taking Dr. Irene's advice, and reading Patricia Evans as recommended, and finding a therapist who knows about verbal abuse. You have nothing to loose because you are already loosing your wife the way things are going. Evan if you don't get your wife back, have you thought that maybe God is sending you a lesson to learn?


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Dear Jake,

I think the others are coming down on you too hard. It seems to me that your question 'am I abusive?' is sincere, and it takes guts to ask it. Of course you don't want to be labeled as 'the bad guy'. Who does? And saying 'she made me feel', or 'I let her go out' is not necessarily an indication that you are abusive or controlling. I believe that Patricia Evans identifies the essential difference between abusers and non-abusers as being the abusers' basic agenda, which is to put themselves in the 'one up' position. That is, their aim is not to communicate with the other person, but to 'prove' that they are better and more powerful. I don't see that in what you've written. You may be controlling and you may act or have acted in abusive ways, but if you are willing to recognize that and to change your behavior then you are by no means a bad guy, and I think you should be commended for coming this far. (I also believe that we ALL act abusively and are 'controlling' from time to time. If you go looking for abusiveness in any one person I think you are guaranteed to find it!)

As far as your views on divorce are concerned, I agree with you. However, I haven't read anything so far to indicate that Dr. Irene is pushing anyone to get divorced who shouldn't. But I do think that there are women go overboard in identifying men's behavior as 'controlling'.

For help in keeping your marriage together, I highly recommend 'Divorce Busting' by Michele Weiner-Davis.

Good luck. I wish that my ex-husband were able to ask these kinds of questions of himself.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Jake, the only way you're going to save your marriage is to stick real tight to Dr Irene's advice. If I were you, I would seriously consider paying her for email responses to you. You desperately need a therapist who understands abusers and their victims.

Yes, you are an abusive controlling person. It is SO OBVIOUS to everyone but you! This site is NOT about divorce. Either you (1) haven't read all the content on this site where Dr Irene clearly tries to keep couples together, or (2) you have filtered out the positive and have chosen to focus on divorce. I think you're focusing on the divorce issue because it is your way of discounting the information on this site. What you're saying about this site isn't true, but that's what you'll tell everyone about this site, isn't it? That this site is only about divorce, right? That's what you'll say because you are in denial regarding your behavior. That will be your reason to discount all the information on this site, because it's all about divorce, you say.

Using the divorce issue is also a clever sidetrack that takes away the focus from you and your behaviors.

Your mother-in-law is not ruining your marriage. She doesn't control your wife. That's bull. You sound exactly like my abusive brother who, for over 30 yrs has said I spoke to all the women he ever dated, and convinced them to leave him. I was living in a different state over 13 hrs away by car! Most of the time I didn't even know who he was dating! And when I did talk to his girlfriends, it was because they searched me out, trying to find answers for why he so controlling/abusive. They left him because they couldn't live with his abuse! Your wife has turned to her mother for love and support because she's not getting it from you.

Bottom line: if your wife does divorce you, you will blame it on your mother-in-law, and on sites like this that "encourage people to divorce." You will blame others for the divorce, but not yourself.

No, Jake, you don't get it. You are very defensive. Please let Dr Irene help you, PLEASE!


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Jake....

You don't want people to advise divorce, because you know that women who are abused NEED TO HEAR THAT and what you are saying is also considered a control factor because you want to isolate what she (and other wives) can read by not getting advise like that! Are AFRAID your wife will get advice like that and do it? My answer to that is YES!!!! Please don't use God's wrath as a scare tactic. God loves those who love him unconditionally, even when we go against his commandments. Nothing will separate us from Him. Even divorce! You think in your head that divorce is wrong no matter what....Well guess what? You have already sinned against your wife in the worst way by not loving and treating your wife as God loves the "church"! God hateth the man who bringeth violence (ANY KIND) upon his wife! Remember....there are a million excuses for abuse, but not one good reason! You ARE a controlling, manipulative, two-year old that needs to grow up. It's time for your wife to "sour the milk", and she is trying to! You feed off of her, and when she removes the source of your food (her) by not being there, you are not satisfied until she returns! The reason your wife comes home at 10:00 pm is because she doesn't wanna spend any time (who does!!) with a verbal and controlling man who is supposed to love her! Sheesh...this is why I come home late! I do commend you for coming on here and telling your story, explaining how you feel...but geez for once SAY IT! You do not own her. You cannot subject her to continuous ultimatums or limit her time because of your preconceived reasoning which ONLY MAKES SENSE TO YOU.

CAN YOU SAY THIS:

"I AM A CONTROLLING AND VERBALLY ABUSIVE HUSBAND AND I CHOOSE FROM THIS DAY TO NOT DO THIS ANYMORE! I NEED HELP AND NOW!!!"

There.....if you said it, now let your words mimic your actions. Tell your WIFE what she really needs to hear! The above. Tell her you will MOVE OUT while getting treatment. She deserves to come home any time...and home should always be the safest and most peaceful place to be. Turn the tables....what if she treated you like that. REALLY REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. You are in "male privilege" mode. Me thinks you need to hit rock bottom before you will really ever realize how much you need to change your HEART. You can't do this without tears. You must feel remorse for the hurt you have caused her, and apologize for it, admit it, then get help and work hard to stop it.

It's ABUSE. Verbal and emotional is worse than physical. You are robbing her of her rights as a human being. No person on earth should have that kind of power.

Your problem is admitting to yourself that you are the problem.

Dr. Irene is an expert, has earned her way to giving the advice that she does. She can advise divorce....but because she has does not means she is responsible for whether or not the couple does that. We all still have our own free will and make our own choices. Each of us in our own right are accountable to God. Search your heart Jake...that's the part God is looking at and living in. I hope you make the right choice.

Caged Snowbird


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

I have found out, by the post I get here, that there are so many experts in the field. It is hard for me to believe there are so many conclusions and advises about my life, my wife and my marriage. I am a science person, with strong logical thinking and I know life should not be analyzed with the logic that science needs. But I am right here wondering how many people jump ahead to say things without knowing all the facts.

There are so many badly treated woman out there I feel sorry for. There is a post by a sister about how she influence her brother's girlfriends. I feel sorry for her brother, even if he is a bad person, as her sister says, for having a sister like that. I would never ever get involved in any of my sisters/brothers relationships and marriages. The only advice I would give to any of my sisters-in-law is that she should get professional help. But do I have the right to get involved in any of their life, giving advices as if I know better? I do not think so.

I know I do not own my wife, I never thought of her as my property. How and when did I give that impression? I do not think I am a controlling person, I have tried to be very careful about not being one. Yes, I feel badly about hurting my wife by not giving her the love I should have given her, but there are problems I have not even talked about. But bottom line: yes, I have not been the loving person I should have been. I am asking God for forgiveness, because I let him down. I could write many paragraphs about why I have not been the loving husband I should have been, but they will be excuses. I know. So won't even try, at least not for now.

But I am wondering, If I were not a husband, but a wife, would I have given the same advice and comments I have. I would do an experiment, one of these days on another site, pretending to be a woman who has lived a life with a man who I will pretend is my wife, to prove how many people jumps to conclusions just because the husband should have been responsible for his broken marriage. Wives are never responsible. I have heard so many times what I should have done or should have not done, and they might be right, but my point here is that all the post I received here is about how husbands are at fault. I will let you know about the result of my experiment.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Jake:

I have read your messages and all the replies posted thus far. I think it would be easy for people to conclude that you are abusive simply because Dr. Irene says so. I tried to set that information aside and re-read your messages while ignoring the comments and replies in order to "hear" your side of the story without being biased. Unfortunately, I still come to the conclusion that you are very likely abusive. Here are a few of my reasons: 1--You talk a lot about how you want your wife to understand how you feel. You give little mention of being concerned about how SHE feels. You say that she won't bring up how she feels until you want to talk about your feelings, and when she does, she raises 1000 issues at once. Have you ever sat down with her and asked her about her feelings WITHOUT immediately raising how YOU feel? Have you listened attentively to her concerns, fears, doubts, frustrations WITHOUT turning the conversation around into being about YOU and/or defending yourself? Have you ensured that SHE feels heard? You are right in that you both need to develop better communication skills, but don't expect HER to be the only one to change. 2--You clearly have some very specific ideas on how a marriage is "supposed" to work. That is OK. However, your wife might have a different idea of what marriage is supposed to be like. Have you ASKED her what she wants from the marriage? I get the impression that you have only TOLD her what you think it is supposed to be like. You also seem to be invoking some religious dogma on what the marriage is supposed to be like. Please don't try to use religious guilt to convince your wife that she should behave in a particular way. Don't accuse, don't lecture, don't mandate, don't whine. You chose to marry her for herself. Let her BE herself. Don't tell her what she is supposed to be like. That isn't your job. 3--You sound like you are uncomfortable with how much time your wife spends with her mother or with her friends. Maybe she is spending too much time away from home, but if she doesn't find home a pleasant place to be, then she will continue to do this. It is common for abusers to feel that their victims spend too much time with other people and are being influenced into bad decisions or bad attitudes by these "outsiders". Wrong. Your wife is a grown-up and is capable of forming her own opinions. She is spending time around the people who validate the feelings and opinions she already has. It should be a clear message to you that she doesn't feel valued or heard by you if she is avoiding spending time with you. If she felt valued by you she would seek to spend time with you. 

Jake--I could go on and on. The bottom line is that I get the distinct impression that you are not doing your part to help your wife feel emotionally safe to be with you. Lecturing her and accusing her of being wrong or inadequate is a poor way to ensure that she feels safe or eager to share her life with you. There is no point in your telling us how or why SHE has made you unhappy. She does not control your happiness. You control your happiness. If you are really committed to a happy marriage then you will find yourself a therapist and work hard at changing YOURSELF into a happy and loving person that your wife will WANT to be around. After your therapist tells you that you are ready, and if your wife is willing, then you may want to consider marriage counseling or couples' therapy. However, couples' therapy is not going to do either of you any good until BOTH of you feel safe to talk about the relationship in front of each other. I am willing to bet that your wife won't feel safe doing that until YOU have changed yourself into a person who can listen to her without attacking, criticizing, or blaming her.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Jake, you didn't understand my post. I NEVER told my brother's girlfriends to leave him! I said I lived 13 hrs away, and never even knew the names of the women he dated! How could I talk to someone I didn't even know??!!! This is what he ACCUSED ME of doing----something I never did. He had to blame someone for his all of his failed relationships, and he chose to accuse me of something that I didn't even do. AFTER some of his girlfriends left, they contacted me because they were hurt and confused by my brother. They had already left! All I could do was listen. I never got involved in his relationships!

YOU NEED HELP! FIND A THERAPIST SKILLED IN THIS FIELD. You don't "hear" and "confuse" what we are saying in replies to you.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Dear Jake...

You are a stinking, lower than dirt, piece of "Sh*t, a cowardly, manipulative, control seeking , selfish, SON OF A BI*CH! Oh, and make sure YOU are at home by 8:00 PM as you don't deserve to have fun with friends after you are married (in other words, you are my property)! Don't call your family, especially more than once a day, as you now only need me and my advice and company (in other words, I have the right to isolate you). I don't wanna hear your 1,000 of excuses (because then you don't hear mine).

ARROW DOWN.......

KEEP GOING.......

STILL A BIT MORE......

Okay...I apologize......I know that was not a nice thing to do at all (see...I admit when I am wrong, but the thing here is to NEVER let language like that out of your chops in the first place!)....but I did so here just as a lesson....Now.....maybe you know (a tiny bit) about how it feels to be verbally abused. It doesn't leave you feeling all warm and fuzzy does it? But to get the entire picture.....picture yourself in this day in and day out for years and years. Makes you wanna throw up, huh?

Now Jake...go do something about it. You need more than web advice and books to read....you need therapy.

But don't do it to expect everyone to hug and embrace you. Do it for YOU. The rest will come unexpectedly and in good time. The only expectations you should have are of YOURSELF.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

You're playing games now, with your "experiment." There are cases on Dr Irene's site of women abusing men. Everyone was just as supportive of the abused men. This site is about people, not taking the woman's side in every case.

We all know you are not happy right now. We are trying to help you. You are more interested in proving you are right, than you are in helping yourself. You are choosing to waste your energy on "experiments." Even if you think Dr Irene is wrong about you, what harm would it do spend your energy reading some cognitive therapy books, or books about anger, or about self-esteem? Or use your energy to find a good therapist, if you're not already in counseling? We all wish you success.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Okay, I have read the post and all the replies. I find Jake to be very defensive. I also find that he minimizes his own bad behavior, while he maximizes everyone else's.

Jake, you like to play the blame game. However you are completely clueless that when you point a finger at someone else, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

Your wife told you why she left you...but you still don't get it. I find from reading your responses to others posts that talking to you is like talking to the wall. I find with you, that if you don't like the message.....you think there is something wrong with the messenger and you attack them.

But you're a wonderful husband....so wonderful in fact, that your mean wife up and left you. After all, you hardly rage anymore...and you do apologize for it. Give me a break. Raging at your spouse is not okay....and the words I'm sorry......don't cut it....it's nothing but lip service...cause you will be raging again. You don't want to change your ways......what you really want are things done your way.

You don't realize that by your actions and your words you told your wife ........it's my way or the highway. Oh well,...she took the highway. That's what happens in life to people who are selfish ....eventually others get fed up and lose their numbers real fast.

You also fail to realize that just because you don't want a divorce doesn't mean your wife doesn't. But then again it's only all about what Jake wants. And I also find it very interesting how you used answering to God to threaten Dr. Irene...woe... you have some nerve doing that..... you were dead wrong to pull that crap. You are very transparent... but you carry on as if you are cloaked.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

I don't know why I'm even bothering to post this, I doubt it will make a difference. I do want to give my opinion on Dr. Irene's advice, though. First of all, she ENCOURAGES divorce? I, frankly, feel that sometimes she tries a little too hard to keep couples together in what are most likely hopeless situations (and I personally feel that the vast majority of abusive relationships are hopeless situations.) Yet you feel she encourages divorce? Well, I guess we just have a different perspective. That's funny, since Dr. Irene loves to hear stories about recovering abusers and couples that have made it (or are in the process, like me). Dr. Irene doesn't want you and your wife to divorce - she wants you to get better! However, she understands that if you choose not to get better, as you are doing now, that there is little hope for your relationship. She can't make your wife come back to you, and neither can you. 

Most abusers take this as a wake-up call and at least admit to being abusive - you never do. All you do is spend your time defending. You're textbook! Reminds me a little of my abuser back in extreme denial phase. We almost broke up - now we're working things out and pretty happy most of the time! He's happier too, because he's in touch with his feelings, and he's not hurting me all the time. What do you have to lose by admitting your abuse and starting to get help? Since you're religious, why don't you "Let go and let God?" You can be a happy man, you can have healthy relationships, but you've got a long way to go first. Secondly, it sounds like your wife has very healthy boundaries; she realized that you weren't going to change (at this point) and did what she needed to do for her. 

Good luck, Jake, I'd like to see you be one of the success stories. However, you've gotta lose the defensive attitude here - if you wrote to Dr. Irene asking for help, why don't you take her advice? Or were you just looking for someone to validate your "I'm not controlling/abusive" mindset? Oops, I guess you came to the wrong place...abusive behavior won't get validated here! Love, SatokoGirl, liberal feminazi pro-divorce man-hating anti-family lesbian... (hey, aren't we all, girls? Funny how abusive types like to label anyone who doesn't agree with them "man-haters"...I guess my boyfriend, whom I love, is really a woman!)


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Excellent discussion. Jake, "Dr. I." speaks the truth. If you don't like what you hear, if it's not "Jake centered" (all abut Jake, all the time!), then you won't HEAR it! Sounds like you never got unconditional love in your childhood, that's why you have to be so self-centered. If your wife gives it, you don't know how to deal with it. Get therapy on that. (Is that what you mean about what a marriage is "supposed" to be? Well, then, why don't you have the God-given obligation to give that to HER?) Ask your wife about those 1000 issues - (Gosh, a thousand is simply impossible to even try to start, so better not even begin on what SHE wants to discuss, just stick with YOU and what you expect, demand, and threaten in the name of marriage and God.) 

You're stuck in that loop- Oh, it's too big so let's just forget it and continue as we have been. It's what Jake EXPECTS in a marriage that's important, not what measures might work between just him and just his wife. Stop worrying about what "others" think about your marriage, because that's just an excuse NOT to do the hard work and figure out What and How to change in yourself. You cannot change OTHER people. You really know that deep inside. You can only change your own behaviors. You sound like a capable, intelligent fellow, so you can (and I believe you MUST) change your own behavior. Otherwise, you'll always be unhappy, but of course the certainty of misery is better than the misery of uncertainty.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Hi Jake:

I am on the flip side of the equation and I want to tell you a couple of things that I related to. My husband was also very controlling. He would come home from work and instead of talking to me as a partner, making me laugh a little, working as a team - he would complain about what was not done, accuse me of not being a good mother or a supportive spouse, he took his bad moods out on me making everything somehow my fault. It didn't take long for me to go in the opposite direction of him, cringing when his truck pulled up at the end of the day. He hurt me so much treating me as a possession or the second mate that I went to the comfort of my sisters for conversation. I left the house alone and went anywhere where he was not. I just could not be a part of someone who hurt me or brought me down so much. I was not a wife...and equal. I was his fall guy, his verbal punching bag, his puppet?! 

Why would I want to be with someone like this? I was better off being alone. And because I needed the compassion of my sisters, he saw this as a threat. He resented my family, saying that they butted in. But you want to know the truth? All I wanted was a husband who loved me, talked to me civilly, let me be my own person, someone I could enjoy seeing at the end of the day. That is all I wanted. He did not see that for many years, and because of it I went to other people for things (compassion, conversation, joking etc.) that he should have been giving me all along. 

So, why don't you try for a little while to think, "How do I really treat my wife". Be honest. Is your relationship something that is equal and fulfilling, each being respectful and polite? Why don't you try that approach for a while. If you treat her this way, I can almost guarantee you that she will not need to speak to her mother as she does now. She probably wants a husband that will treat her the way a husband should treat her. I say this from experience because we did make that very change and now things are very good. Very good. I no longer have to cry to my sisters everyday and you know what? I am happy to see his truck pull up in the driveway at night. Good luck to you. I do wish you can see how important your end of the deal is. Try changing the way you are and you just might be happy with the changes she makes. God Bless! Karen


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Here I am again, thinking, wow, how many responses in such a short time. First of all, I have to give something back to you all. I thank you for all of your responses, even from those badly treated women who think that that all men are the same.

I am a Latin person, as my wife is, but I lived in the USA for 7 years, so I understand the American life style and it's strong belief in family. We are both Latin living in Mexico. We have a maid; they do not cost much, so we do not have problem as in the USA, where couples must share chores. The maid basically does everything in the house. Moreover, I like to cook, and I told my wife when we were dating that she did not need to cook. She never did. But I would have loved to have dinner made by my wife, I might have asked her once or twice, but it would have been nice.

I had a business for 5 years and last year I had to close it. It was very difficult for me to handle and I was depressed because of it. Was I given support by my wife? No. I could not be a loving husband because of the stress. I did not know how to handle stress, and maybe she did not either. But added to our communication problem, there was not much to do to save my marriage. I had to support my family and I was failing at that. I was not happy, I was depressed. How can anyone tell me to be a loving husband in such a situation? I am not asking her to be a loving wife either, I am asking her to understand.

About one of the posts:

1. Granted. I did not listen to my wife, I did not know what she expected from me, I did not know what I expected from her either. I always thought that listening was about giving advice, but then I learned that it is about shutting up your mouth. 2. I am not trying to use religious guilt to manipulate her. I have never raised that to her. It is only in my mind, which I share with you. I believe in God and believe marriage is forever. I feel guilt, and I have not pointed that to her. It is my guilt due to my religious beliefs. 3. Yes, I am uncomfortable because of how much time she spends with her mother on the phone, from day 1. Yes from day one. So this is not a recent issue, It has always been like that. I have told her that I feel bad about it, but few changes has been made. I married her to live and share a life with her for God sake, I did not marry her mother. Jake: When you marry a person, you also marry their family... Right or wrong... But, now I understand more of the difficulty you and I are having. There is a cultural difference. Your culture makes her going out late less acceptable and your own backing down more difficult than by American standards. Still... 

I have a question for you: Do you think your wife may have changed her tune over time had you been more accepting of her close relationship with her mom? Had you not set yourself up in a role competing with her mother?

 

Another post:

About the Sh*t and SON OF A BI*CH! comments, no I did not do that. That kind of conversation did not take place. I am not like that. All I said was that I did not think that her behaviour was lady like and that I do not like her to be out in the street so late. She thought I was calling her a bi*ch, but I did not.

How many of you thought that that kind of discussion took place? I didn't. I just thought the writer was being facetious to emphasize a point. See what I mean. You people think that I treated my wife like that, and I did not. I told her bad things but not like that. I told her how many things I did for her and how little things she did for me. That is bad since I did not do them for her to be thankful, but because I was happy doing in them. That is bad because I do not want to remind her of the things I do. But I wanted her to put them in the balance, so she can see her life has not been as bad as she think it is. She told me was that I gave her a gold cup to spit blood in it. I felt so badly, since I gave her everything I could; I wanted her to be happy, and because of the way she is, she is not. She told me was how much she resents telling me that.

I can understand many of your point of views, but my point is not about saving my marriage and getting my wife back, even thought I would like that very much, but about people giving advice on divorce. I do not think I would ever be able to save my marriage since I have lot of resentments against my wife and so does she. I know there are many things I have to work on, and I am. But she will never be able to understand what she has to work on, since she is validating her feelings with her mother. Is she a grown woman?

Let me tell you people that she is not. She might be a physically grown woman, but mentally she is not, since her mother does not let her. Whenever there is a problem she goes to her mother to help her solve it. Her mother manipulates her quite well. I may tell you different stories about it, but I am quite sure of that. Moreover, my wife is doing the same thing to my kids. I see my kids less grown for their age than many other kids. My 5 year son drinks milk in a bottle, for God's sake. Ugh.

So please listen to me you all: I am a husband willing to make a difference, and I do accept that I have been controlling, but so has she. The problem here is that she listen to advice about leaving me that she became convinced about. So she did. And That is wrong. I am willing to keep maturing and grow for the better. I am doing it. I am reading books, and reading on line as well. But I am feeling that I can not live with a person who is going to be talking to someone (her mother), who is going to be judging me all the time. I did not marry her mother for God's sake. I want my wife to tell me how she feels; I will shut up. But my mistakes are always going to be judged very strongly. It is the same for me to make a little mistake and a big mistake; they are always going to be judged as if they were huge mistakes. See my point. Jake, I see your point. You are not right or wrong. Life is what it is. People are who they are, right or wrong. Here are your choices: Accept who she is and love her, or let her go, which, apparently you have chosen to do. But, you are not being entirely honest. Had you been, you would have said what you said now off the bat. You didn't. You started out with some issue about being mad at people who recommend divorce, and proceeded to put words into my mouth to that end. Check it out Jake. 


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Karen:

Your post makes a lot of sense to me. I truly thank you for your compassion and understanding. I do relate to your husband, and his mistakes are quite like the ones I made. However, it is to late for us now. I will always be pointed by the accusing fingers and her mother will always remind her of my mistakes. I lost her for good. Now I have to learned to live a life visiting my children every other weekend and I will not be able to be involved in their every day growing up. I will keep working on me and ask God to bring me a good woman I can make happy and have a new family with. I will not make the same mistake again.

Thank you Karen, I understand what you say without feeling I am such a terrible person, because I am not. I can not believe I am a monster when I have such a wonderful feelings toward my wife. But your post has made me see my mistake. God bless you. You are not a monster. You are a very imperfect and very human being, as we all are... And God bless you too...


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Dear Jake,

I am surprised that your and your wife did not try any marriage counseling. It would be interesting to hear what someone thinks who is neutral rather than what her mother or you think. I know from personal experience that an abusive mother and daughter defend each others actions and see the other side as automatically wrong. It’s obvious that her mother has considerable influence and it is possible your wife used her as an escape to avoid dealing with the situation herself. I see something very familiar here in the lines about how she starts something with you which leads to you defending yourself and then she brings up other things about you which have nothing to do with what either of you started with, which then escalates out of control. 

When she brought up the 1000 other things, you were wrong to go along with it and not stick to the main subject. Correct me if I am wrong, but your wife seems like the kind of person who must always be “right” no matter what and have the last word no matter what. That’s abusive and controlling too. It causes anger that can explode in utter frustration because it is relentless and everyone has their breaking point. The constant countering by both of you leads to seemingly endless arguments that only hurt everyone and solves nothing. I have tried to live with that kind of person for many years and am ready to give it up.

Your wife is part of the problem too and can not change unless she realizes that she has a problem and works herself to correct it. (That applies to you although you have at least made a start.) That will not happen while she is under the influence of the person who probably made her that way to begin with. Unless she agrees to individual therapy and or couples therapy along with you, you both are at a stalemate and your only answer is divorce - for your sake. At least you will be the better and happier person in the long run, assuming you get a handle on your problems through professional counseling. In the end you will move on and will find someone better who is not so self centered and can listen to others. 

I am surprised that in all the books recommended in Dr. Irene's pages that no has suggested that old stand by of good speaking communication, “How To Win Friends and Influence Others” by none other than Dale Carnegie. I recommend it along with the others. Yes, a wonderful book. Among the first of its kind...

A Friend


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Jake, There are times that we have the right to be angry. It is the way in which we deal with our anger which makes the difference. You say your wife is out late and more often. I am guilty of the same thing. Why did I do it? Because I was tired of the innuendo that I was not good enough for him. I "needed" to do so many things, and he needed to sit on his butt & watch TV.  I "should (not) have done" whatever he seemed to think it was. I was tired of being called names all the time. So I found reasons to be gone more.

However, I was not only a victim of verbal and emotional abuse - I was also a victim of physical abuse. Hence, I had a stronger reason to want to stay away. My suggestion to you right now is - listen:. If she wants her space - give it. If she feels like talking - she will contact you. I don't believe in divorce either - yet I am needing to get one because the man who promised to love me, doesn't understand the true definition of love. 

So answer the question for yourself. What does loving someone mean? If you find the answer is that she should be subservient - or a "behind the scenes" person - let her go. You would not be fair to her or yourself if you don't. I don't Jake is saying that a woman should be subservient. I think he truly tried his very best. He is letting her go, though he wishes he did not have to. I think the circumstances were very difficult at best with the business failing and the unsupportive mother-in-law. Nor do I doubt that his wife was acting out herself. But, I still don't think that, as well-meaning as Jake is, that he understands that which he does not understand: the control stuff. I think this is made even harder by virtue of the cultural differences. 

Controlling people often have a hard time understanding how difficult their anger or control issues are for their partner. They know they don't mean to hurt or offend. They know if they slip up in anger, that they just slipped and didn't really mean some of what was said. They mean it when they apologize. They know they have very good reasons for feeling the way they feel. They know that if only the partner would listen to their reasons, they would understand. 

The part that slips by is that even though their partner understands, it is a struggle for this person to feel free in having their own point of view. If they have a point of view that is different from the controlling person's view, the controller assumes they have it because they need more facts to truly understand. This is the partner's catch 22.  

The controlling person's point of view seems so right to them, their partner becomes weary of understanding and of not being understood.  This is the MeMeMe stuff. 


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

The reason your wife may be bringing up 1000 things is because she feels attacked, and is trying to point out an abusive pattern. She is trying to explain her side, defending herself from your verbal attacks. You have already admitted that you have a bad temper. It is impossible to talk with someone who goes into a rage, or if you don't know WHEN they will explode.

You asked if everyone thought you used swear words with your wife. I don't think you swore at her. It is possible to attack someone personally without swearing. Your comment references something in your original email to Dr Irene. YOU: But one night, I exploded and told her that was wrong. She said that I was calling her a bitch, and maybe I implied it, but did not say it directly. Dr Irene: Same difference. Not OK. (In other words, it's still abuse.)


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Yes, I think she brings 1,000 things to our discussion because she wants to be right, but so do I. However I only want to deal with one issue at a time, and with her it is impossible. Another thing, she also bring 1,00 things because she feels attacked. Yes, I know, but not because I started saying things that make her feel attacked, but because she has to defend herself. I understand that since I have also tried to defend myself in the past. The problem here is that I have told her she doe not have to defend herself since I am not the enemy nor I am attacking her. But at the end, yes, she brings 1,000 issues to our discussion table. Jake, nobody ever said she wasn't making her own mistakes. We've just been looking at your errors since you wrote in asking for feedback. I would be equally tough on her, as I am with the victims on the site I chew out for misbehaving... Also, for all I know, she may be another controller! But, again, you, not she, is doing the asking, so this is about you.

But like I said, It makes no difference now. Like a post I get here, she is under the influence of her mother which gives her strength to pursue for a divorce, and that was my concern here in the first place, people telling other people what to do, and that it is best for them to divorce.

What is the end result? I would be a better person, since by definition, only God is perfect, which means that there is always room for improvement on myself, and I recognize it no matter how many years a live. My wife, well maybe she will improve herself or not, but one thing is for sure, no one, but no one will love her like I do. I have given her my whole life, whether it was for good or bad, and she was the most important person in my life. Even if my love was not good for her, I was willing to make the necessary changes to love her good. My kids will live in a broken family. I will remarry when I am ready, since I found happiness and will like to again. Does this make sense? Not for me, but obviously for my mother in law it does. I just wish I would stop loving her, since I would hate to think about her every day of my life, as I do know. I am letting her go, she is gone, but I still love her.

It makes no sense. Unless you understand some of the complaints your wife and mother-in-law may have. They are not here to contribute, but what have you got to lose by taking the time to consider accepting some of the feedback you've gotten here - as opposed to telling us why we don't understand...


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Dear Jake: You're welcome. I just wanted to add that you should not give up on your wife if you sincerely want to make a change. You have children together and the family should be together if it can. It has only been 3 months and never say never. I left my husband for 1 year at one point and when I returned, it began to go bad because the issues were never resolved and we both went back to our own separate ways. I have to say that I loved my husband, yet I hated him. I never thought that I could love him that way again.

But when he realized that his treatment of me was not right and we could be on the same side, things did change. My changes in demanding respect and to be treated correctly and his changes in respecting me and treating me correctly made it work. I began to trust and love him again the way a wife should love a husband. I in turn respected him.

 So if you sincerely want your wife and family back then you have to say "Hey, I have to change the things that upset her...period". Amen. She will also change when you change because deep down inside, couples really do want to be happy. Please just think about it. You worry about the mother in law. Don't. My family was so used to my husband "screwing up," that even after he changed, any mistake he made he was already labeled "bad" so they said, "See he will never change". 

But the funny part is, is that I began to stick up for him, something I thought I would never do. I would tell them that he is only human and can make a mistake, as we all do. Give him credit for changing 95%. If you love her, work on yourself and let her see your sincerity. For the sake of the children she may give the marriage another chance. Just be sincere and think of her feelings to. I will say a prayer for you and your family. Karen Yes Jake. Try to understand her.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Karen:

You made me cry since you give me hope, but I do not think my marriage will work. This is not the first time we were separated, since 3 years ago we did. I was pretty bad at that time and I made improvements on myself. I stopped worrying about my wife's mistakes, I did work on myself, but like I said, only God is perfect, so I will always have room for improvement. So does she. Stop looking at her - stick with Jake, only Jake! But I will always be accused for my past mistakes. 

Do you know something? I did everything I could to get my wife back, flowers, gifts, telling her how I feel toward her, etc. Nothing worked. Do you know what did work? I told my mother in law how sorry I felt for my mistakes, which was not meant. I apologized, I took all the blame, and at that time I was sincere. I saw my mistakes pretty clear, however I did not realize the huge mistake I made when I talked to my mother in law. 

First, my wife came back home immediately, I was in shock to see that. I could not believe how strong my mother in law influences my wife. I even recanted that, since I was not expecting her to come back that soon since the decision was hers, not her mother's. But then I realized that the decision was my mother in law, and my wife just took it, both to leave me and to come back. Wow! When you were willing to own everything, including stuff that you believed did not belong to you, she returned!

Second, she did little changes since I took all the blame, which was ok for me since I thought that by improving myself I would make a difference. But no, it did not since my mistakes showed them I was a horrible person. Could it be your "mistakes" included not understanding her, and wanting her to understand you? Whenever I made another mistake, it just reminded them how horrible I was. I am always judged by my mother in law, I do not even think I have a private life. I feel like am constantly pointed by my mother in law's fingers.

Again, my wife's is a very insecure person who needs to validate her decisions with her mother. I feel sorry for her since what is she going to do when her mother is gone? Her mother has not prepared her for that time; it is like she will always be there for her, and that can not be. Eventually she will be called by God, and then I hope she is ready to face the world as a grown person, who can stand by herself. I get the feeling you look towards God to vindicate your position...

I also hope that my wife does not do the same thing to my kids, as she is doing it right now, not letting them grow. I am a very independent person who somehow became dependent to my wife as well, and I am working on that, I realize now the huge mistake that is, and hope my wife sees that she is dependent to her own mother, and that is stopping her from growing. I hope she sees that too...


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Thank you for posting this email! I have been trying to explain to my husband why I am not happy and also what control "is". Although I know I am far from perfect, when I read this letter, I saw my husband. I came to the site wondering if I am making the control abuse thing up in my head. I was starting to think I was going nuts!!!! I emailed my husband the email, and I hope it will make him understand a little more how I feel. He almost had me convinced that I was the whole problem with our marriage (I am not saying I am without fault...it is just nice to not have the whole thing on my shoulders). :)


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

After the first separation you improved, but you were still abusive. That's why your wife left. This is a typical pattern of abuse that Dr. Irene has explained. Wife leaves, husband buys gifts/flowers, says he will change. I believe you were sincere at the time. Your mother-in-law must have believed that too. So, she has been on your side before! What type of counseling did you get after your first separation? You have said you didn't explode with anger as much, but you were still exploding. Even though you changed, you were still hard to live with. What kind of counseling did you receive? Did you go to a therapist, or did you try to change on your own? You need a therapist who is an expert in verbal abuse. You can't make this change on your own. It's very hard to do. Keep trying new ways to improve yourself. Get help. It sounds like you still have a long way to go. Look at YOUR problems inside of YOU, instead of worrying about who is "controlling" your wife. Those are her problems. Deal with only your self improvement.


Date: Monday, May 15, 2000

S1

Your mother in law did what she felt was best. Why not show how grateful you are by sending her a nice box of chocolates? Assorted flavors are suitable, like raspberry, strawberry, cherry, hazelnut, praline, strychnine, orange cream, caramel, etc. A good idea. You catch more flies with honey...


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

Wow, that was a lot of letters in one day!!! Jake, I have read them all and please, take it from "A REFORMING VERBAL ABUSER," all this makes sense. I have been there and done that, as the saying goes. There are so many excellent advice tips in these posts. Especially about the one that said "What counseling did you get, and "sorry" won't cut it, and "you can't fix it on your own, you need professional help" 

Listen Jake, I was saying the same thing 5 years ago. That I would not make the same mistakes again. Well guess what my hurting friend. I did! Why??? Because I never followed through with professional therapy and I gradually slid back into my old, bad habits. And you will too if you don't get professional help from a therapist who is familiar with verbal abuse/controlling/manipulation behavior etc. Listen to the person who told you it might not be too late. But what is everyone saying Jake? What are they all saying? All these people that have been in and out and through these situations? What are they saying???????????????????????????????? For the most part THEY ARE SAYING........ "THE ONLY PERSON YOU CAN CHANGE IS YOURSELF, NOT ANYONE ELSE" 

All you can do for her is pray for her, if she is a Christian then let The Holy Spirit work on her heart. He can do a much better job than you or her mother. Go to Therapy, Let go and let God, Get help, admit your wrong. It's ok to be wrong, what's not ok is to be wrong and still remain blind to it because you are concentrating on changing someone else. My wife and I are on the verge of a divorce. This is my "LAST CHANCE", I am certain of that! So what am I doing, I am getting professional counseling. (I should have long ago!) 

I am reading books like "The Verbally Abusive Relationship " by Patricia Evans, and "The Feeling Good Handbook" by David D. Burns etc. etc. What you don't see it that most the people responding to you with their postings have insight, they have hands-on experience, they have heard all this before, and although the specific details may differ, the underlying problems just ooze out between the lines of your words. I'm sure if you would get professional counseling, you will discover that you were doing things unconsciously that you did not ever realize you were doing because they have become natural and automatic for you. When you are counseled and you have read and you have meditated on your past and asked God to show you your hidden motives in your past, you will be enlightened and see things from a different light. Please trust me on this. Just do it. What have you got to lose? Jake, I love you as a brother in Christ and I hope God will lead you to the answers, but you must let him. Let down your guard. Get Help, you will be glad you did. Tim   Wonderfully said Tim.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

Hello, is me again. Dr Irene asked: "Do you think your wife may have changed her tune over time had you been more accepting of her close relationship with her mom? Had you not set yourself up in a role competing with her mother?"

It is probably true that my wife may have changed her tune over time had I been more accepting of her close relationship with her mom, and I may had myself up in a role competing with her mother, but over time what I did was to get a close relationship with my mother-in-law. I think I got close to her because I not only accepted my mother-in-law in our life as much as my wife wanted, but I also suggested her doing things with her, like going to movies with her, going to her house every Sunday, etc. My mother-in-law was involved in as much detail as possible in our lives. I supported that. My mother-in-law has said quite often that I was a perfect man, and my only problem was that I smoke cigarettes. She even said that.

But now, she treats me like I am the worst man in the world. I have heard comments from some friends of hers about how she hates my guts and how much she wants me out of my wife's life and even of my children's. It is white or black for her now, there is no gray here. How can she change her attitude toward me overnight? You can only change her attitude over time.

But all of this is not important now. I am not here to keep analyzing my mother-in-law's attitude. But I bring it up to show how influenced my wife is by other people, so much so, she can not see the light at the end of the tunnel. For other couples, spouses can have the choice to continue their journey, but for me it is most difficult considering that I have not been the horrible person they think I am. I thought I was; their behaviour even convinced me of that, and I felt pretty bad. That is why I came across this site, and other sites, to see how right they are.

I have suggested my wife so many times for us to go counseling, so many times. And we did 3 years ago, but we stopped going by her wish. Never, ever again she wanted to go again with me. I stopped too. I wonder if your counselor, not fluent with abuse issues, turned your wife off by further upsetting the balance of power? I will continue on my journey, reading books and probably going counseling myself, since I want to be involved again and have another family, and I do not wish to make the same mistakes again. :) But my point here is why am I such a terrible person if I wanted to go to counseling with my wife but she never wanted? You're not! And I am talking that I wanted to go counseling even before our first separation 3 years ago, when I saw clear signs of problems. Is it possible she never actually loved me? Is it be possible that she never actually wanted to work this relationship? Perhaps. But, perhaps there was too much water under the bridge for her too. Perhaps she felt nothing would help?

I have seen so many cases where one of the spouses does not want to go counseling since they know how much responsibility they have, and they do not want to open it It was not my attitude. I always wanted to have it in the open: what my responsibility was and what hers was too. Whatever the problems were, I was willing to work on them. So my question is why that was never ever possible? My wife never thought or appreciated my attitude about this. If I am such a terrible person, why was I willing to have it in the open, and why she was afraid to have it in the open too? Possibly because a counselor who does not understand abuse can make the victim feel even worse...

Now I do not agree with the theory accept it or leave, because at the very least, it sounds like it encourages people to leave. Hurt people may have a hard time accepting things, so the easier step is leaving. I speak for myself: if I wanted to leave my wife, I would come here and get the strength I need.

I am letting her go and letting God. I went through all phases already, denial, frustration, resisting and now I am working on accepting. Almost from day one in our separation, she spoke about divorce. For God's sake, this is not a game; this is affecting lives: hers, mine, and our children's. How can anyone be so blind? I am not having a difficult time in accepting my responsibilities. I am having a difficult time accepting that divorce is a necessary step since I am not a horrible person as they believe. In their eyes I am a horrible person who do not deserve time to change. But what about my wife and my children? Don't they deserve better chances? Don't my children deserve to have better parents, where both of us show that it is possible to forgive and to improve ourselves? What kind of message our we sending to our children? Here is where we are influencing society: by showing there is no hope, no matter what we do. That is how my mother-in-law is influencing my wife, which is affecting how this generation and the next believes. Yes, Jake. Everybody deserves a chance. Your children deserve an intact home. You can improve; we all can. Nobody disagrees with you - except your wife and her mother.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

Jake, please read the reply from Tim again. He is further along in his recovery than you. You still sound very defensive. Yes. You are giving us these long explanations to try to convince us that your behavior isn't as bad as it is. No one is saying you are a terrible person. We are saying you are a person who needs help. Your abusive behaviors, and THEY ARE ABUSIVE, are symptoms of a deeper problem. You don't sound like you are aware of how serious and abusive your behaviors are. You seem to think that by defending yourself with explanations, we will finally see the truth about you. What you don't see is that we do see the truth, you don't.

Why aren't you asking questions of yourself like, "How do I feel when I don't get what I want?" "What makes me explode?" "Was I blamed for things as a child?" "Did my parents or another adult make feel stupid?" "Did adults in my childhood ignore me?" What are your beliefs? Do you believe that life MUST be fair? What does fair mean to you? Why aren't you asking for help on what questions you need to ask yourself, instead of giving long explanations? (I'll bet Tim has some good suggestions.) Why aren't you asking female victims of abuse what the verbal abuse made them feel like, instead of accusing us of hating all men, or encouraging divorce? Ask how male victims of abuse feel, too. Excellent!

People like you often want counseling for their spouse because they think the counseling will fix what is wrong with their spouse. Correct. Yes, your wife needs help; only she can fix herself. YOU fix yourself. You need therapy for yourself and your problems. Don't worry about what someone else needs because you have no control over that.

We all know that you are going through a difficult time. Try to accept the sincere help offered by Dr Irene and others. You don't have to defend yourself here. This is a good place to do some soul-searching. You will find support here when you look at issues that scare you.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

I have been married for three years now and I am going through the same thing, only I am the one going out. I am having the same problem with my husband. I am not happy and that is why I am going out so often. Everything you said is EXACTLY what my husband says to me. It is so close that I cried and got chill bumps when reading your story. He told me that I will ALWAYS hear it from him when I do go out. No matter if it is 2 times a month or every week. 

We sat down and discussed a compromise. Well I was the one who did all the compromising. I said I would only go out 2 times a month and he said he would TRY to not bitch at me so much when I do. That is not a compromise. It is not going to work either, because I have not really spoken to him since then and I want to go out this weekend all ready. You don't bring it up because you know it is unlikely to go anywhere... I am not picking up men when I go out with my girlfriends. We just dance and have a good time together. My husband says that I should be staying home with him and working on our relationship. He has always been like this even when we were dating. He did not like it when I would spend time with my friends. I just never saw it and realized what was going on. 

He belittles my friends tries to tell me that they are bad people , people with no goals in life and so on and so on. I can not even get him to spend time with my family; and when he does spend time with my family, he takes naps while he is there. I cannot believe that somebody else is having the extract same problem that I am having. I do not want a controlled life. I am not the type of person to be controlled. I was 20 when we got married and things were great. I did everything that he wanted to do, and now that I am growing up and doing things that make me happy, he can not take that I am becoming an independent person. 

He told me that he wants to be the HNIC ( head nigger in charge, sorry for the slang ) again. So he sees that I will not put up with it anymore, and that I am going to do what I want. He can not handle it so we fight. He has told me that he does not want to be married to me any more and that he wants to see a lawyer to file for a legal separation. At first I said that I did not want that, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that is what I want. 

He never wants to do anything and I want to be with somebody who wants to do things and go out and have fun. My husband has a lot of good qualities and that makes it very hard to make my decision. I know that I am not in love with him anymore. I do still love him, but not the same way he loves me. I feel that I am cheating him out of a good relationship. There is somebody out there who will love him just as much as he will love them, and I feel that by me staying with him and feeling the way that I do, is not right. He could be so happy with somebody else , somebody who will want to stay home with him and not go out. I just feel like I am cheating him out of that feeling. Jake I know this is more than you want to know but from another wife who is going through the same thing your wife is going through I thought maybe this will help you understand little bit more. Katharina  Katharina, You once loved your husband too. How long do you thin another woman who may love him will continue to love him if he insists on controlling her? Even if she does like to stay home?


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

I have to say about the last post that I am not like that at all since I like to go out whether it is with my wife or not, but I would rather go out with my wife. She goes out without me as well and there is no problem with that. Jake, the specifics may differ. The underlying theme does not. Please try to see the similarities, not the differences.

The problem is that going out so often and without me means obviously that she does not want to be with me. I have no doubt about it. Last week she told me she does not love me anymore, so I guess that is it. I have to accept it, and I am doing it.

I feel so sorry this is happening to us since I really would like to have the happiness I lived with her, but I know that can not be. So, yes, I am letting her go and letting God. Please then, let God open your mind. Maybe it's no accident that your letter was picked to be answered and that so many people care enough about you to give you a united message.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

Jake- You start many posts with "Well, I'm not like that" or "That's not like me," etc. Again, I doubt this will get through, but it's interesting. My boyfriend, who is an abuser-in-recovery (and could probably give you some good advice!) was trying to explain to one of his friends why he was going to counseling and a men's group, and what verbal abuse is. The first thing out of his friend's mouth was, "Well, I'm not a verbal abuser!" Well, he's probably one of the most classic cases of a verbal abuser in action I've ever seen, and my boyfriend thinks so too (so it's just not me seeing abuse everywhere.) Just an interesting point: people who are defensive are  self-centered (meaning they immediately think of everything as how it relates to them, and never think of how it relates to anyone else). In my experience, those two traits and abusiveness go hand in hand. love, SatokoGirl Excellent observation.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

WOW - Dr. Irene, you are a GENIUS! (Gee, I'm mailing this one to my hubby!) I'll bet all of us wish you were standing over our shoulders as a referee in the midst of rage and anger from our partners. Even now that my abusive relationship is over, I get an incredible amount of validation from your feedback. I left because I had to - it was leading to physical abuse. I read about all of the signs on this web-site. Unfortunately, my boyfriend didn't have someone like you telling him the way it was, or should I say, he didn't WANT to change, which still leaves me feeling unworthy at times but I remind myself that it has nothing to do with me, really. GOOD! It's got ZIP to do with you! It seems like Jake is looking for validation for his behavior here, instead of really feeling ready for change. I agree. Here are some comments for him:

Dear Jake, I'm afraid you have a long way to go. You seem to have the same issues as my ex boyfriend and many other abusers - YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF YOURSELF!! Have you ever learned about empathy? Did you know that statistically, most wives leave their husbands because they feel NEGLECTED? Jake, this is not meant to be a beating post for you, so please listen: if you really want your marriage to work out and want time with your wife, just tell her you would like to talk to her to find out what "SHE WANTS" in the relationship and ask what YOU can do to make it work. Then DO IT! It's that simple. 

If you make an effort, I'm sure she will too unless the damage is already beyond repair. If you listen and talk to her, perhaps she won't have to talk to her mom as much. But you have to be somewhat selfless here. You can't just think about what YOU are getting, or not getting, or how YOU feel, or YOUR defensiveness. Right. Your partner's feelings have to be the most important thing in the world. Think about your duties as a husband, not just about what she's lacking as a wife. Because I guarantee you, and I agree with Dr. Irene on this, she's not spending time with you because she's not HAPPY...for whatever reason...but if you want to find out and work on the relationship, you must sit down and talk to her, like a human being, without the verbal abuse... or I'm afraid she'll run, and you'll have absolutely nothing together and you'll be wondering what you did wrong. You are lucky that we are telling you here before that happens. GOOD LUCK, LHW

L:


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

JAKE, A FEW MORE COMMENTS:

Number 1 - your anger management stuff doesn't just "show up"! You choose to use your anger and NO ONE makes you that way! Get it? Number 2 - why does your wife have 1,000 issues at once? Perhaps because maybe you FLIP out before she gets the words out of her mouth on one small issue? Just a hunch. If there is no resolution on small issues (often happens when dealing with angry people), then you just have mountains to climb. Bottom line is that if you continue to just think about what you need and want, your wife will go elsewhere to get what she needs and wants, and she will have a right to do that!! Yes. So true.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

About last post:

Number 1: Granted. No more comments since I agree.

Number 2: How in the world did I make think like that? She brings 1,000 issues since she does not want to face what I am telling her. Maybe she brings 1000 because each time she's tried to bring each one up, you insist she see it your way. I bring one and only one issue and she brings 1,000. So far, I expected some one to tell me that she does that to control the argument so she does not have to face my feelings, and her wrong thing. Here we go again, back to "her wrong thing."  But no, no one has yet talked about it, and that her behaviour is a clear sign of controlling and has been stated by this site, and other sites. But she is a wife, a woman, and some of you relate to her as a woman and so she most be a victim and I am the abuser. Wrong. Maybe nobody said she's controlling because they are too busy pointing out how you are controlling? Maybe Jake is right folks, and we've all got it all wrong... Maybe we don't understand. But, maybe we do.

Listen to what I am saying and already said: I wanted in a rational and calmly as possible to discuss my feelings and HERS as well one at a time, but I couldn't. Why not? Were you able to accept her feelings without trying to show her how her feelings were wrong or how she did not understand? It was not possible, she has to bring 1,000 issues to our discussion. You people may think whatever you want to think, I just could not communicate with my wife at all, even after reading books and searching online on how to communicate. I just could not. I feel a failure for that. Stop wasting your precious energy feeling you failed. Use it instead to understand what is being said to you.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

Why does your wife think you are verbally abusive? Can you give some specific examples? Other than, her mother told her that? She must have pointed out to you what it is you do that makes her feel it is abusive. You have already told Dr Irene that you explode, that you feel resentful, and that you implied she was a bitch even though you didn't say it directly. All of these are abusive behaviors. Your wife got angry when you implied she was a bitch. She must have told you about some other behaviors she feels are abusive. What are they? What did she say? Answer these questions honestly, without trying to make yourself "right;" you will be on the right path.


Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2000

S1

Ok people, let's get real. My wife and I have been separated for 3 months already, and the next coming weekend is the second time I would be spending he whole weekend with my kid. However, last week, a woman whom I have been talking with, not an affair, otherwise I would be telling you guys, called my wife to tell her she did not want to break up a marriage and she wanted to be sure she wasn't. At least she told me that, but my wife went nuts telling her that she can have me as a gift from her. We live in a small town where everybody pretty much knows each other or at least everybody knows someone who knows someone else. So this woman called my wife. 

Now, my wife thinks that I asked this woman to called my wife, which is the craziest thought of them all. I would never, ever think of something like that. But my wife is manipulating me, using the kids by not letting me have the kids this coming weekend. We have not yet formalized visitation, so she has the power to do that. What am I supposed to do now? I never thought she would try to manipulate me using the kids, but she is doing it now. I am getting fed up, and I am worrying this is going to escalate to a worse situation. What should I do now?

You two are separated. Premature, but technically it is OK for you to be talking with a woman. Perhaps you need to reassure your wife that no woman would be around when the kids were with you. Your wife may rightfully be concerned about confusing the children with another woman's presence. 

Perhaps her calling would just make things worse. You know the old saying, "When in doubt, do nothing." This too shall pass.


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Jake- You want to talk about anger? well, your email ENRAGES me! How dare you presume to speak for God! Do you have a clue how many people Dr. Irene has helped? Did you bother to check that Dr. Irene usually doesn't encourage divorce, in fact, she pushes for people to stick together, unless she is convinced that the situation is impossible or the spouse or children are in danger? 

First, forget how much you've been hurt--- I'm sure you have been! So have I, so has Dr. Irene This is not a contest. You're in pain, right? So is your wife. Your wife is hurting, sounds like she came from an unhealthy background, which her mother is only starting to come to grips with, which is why her mother is assuming the worst about you. You know what, you probably are paying for the sins of your father-in-law, but you know what? That's a part of life too. It's also a part of life that your wife is going to have to start thinking her own thoughts, and stop letting her mother do her thinking for her. In fact, you can tell her this Jake, but first I have to ask you, do you love your wife? 

Do you really, really love her? Are you willing to forgive her? Can you imagine being happy with her? Can you be polite, respectful, and non-controlling? Can you deal with the possibility that no matter how well you act from now on, she may never want to be with you again? Can you love yourself enough to accept either possibility - and in fact welcome either possibility, because you want the ones you love to act out of freedom, not out of coercion, or feeling like they owe you? How do you want to live? Do you want people to owe you, or freely love you? Your choice. 

I love you man; you have it in you to leave this behind. The road is long as hell, and it takes a lot of work, but it's worth it. You are engaging in controlling behaviors. This doesn't make you a bad person. What do you really, really, want to do with your life? Think about it.  :)


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

I HATE AMERICA ONLINE!!! Have any of you wrote a long thought-out reply only to be knocked off before your are able to post it or copy it??? Is that the most frustrating thing or what? I hate that! Anyway, Jake. Yes, I wrote a one pager for you, but I got knocked off AOL due to my inactivity. I'm getting Road Runner tomorrow so thank God, no more of that, I can't wait. 

Jake, listen. I'm going to give you the short version of this. (They are usually better anyway.) Let's say you have a point and your wife is wrong about this or that and may need counseling herself. What good is that going to do you??? You are not in any position to suggest and most definitely not to tell her she is wrong and needs counseling to help her with said problem. Once again, who is the only person you can change Jake??? Correct! YOU and ONLY YOU. I know you know that. Everything you do other than get help with YOUR issues is just spinning your wheels. In fact, you will be spinning you wheels going down hill because this will only push your wife away if she sees you are still trying to justify your self and cast blame on her. Jake, even if she is to blame, it DOES NOT MATTER. Not until you fix you. OK? :) 

I am sure and I know everyone else here is sure that your wife is not perfect; she has her own issues, but no one can help you with that. That is up to her. But I can tell you this. There may be hope if you get help with your own issues and you apply them and she sees a consistency in your actions and expressions and mannerisms and non-verbal communications, and your courtesy etc. etc. etc. That is your only hope. Then, worst case Scenario: the divorce goes through, as mine did from my previous marriage. It's not the end of the world. 

No, it's not God's perfect plan, but you have to make the best from the mistakes that both of you have made. At least if you get help you will ensure that your future relationships are healthy. It sound to me like there may be hope, but you must act quickly. GET HELP NOW!!! Do you have insurance??? Most insurance plans cover counseling. Take advantage of it. If not, it's worth the price buddy. Re: the kids on the weekend issue. Think before you act Jake. Be wise. Don't create a war over one weekend, think long term. Be as loving as you can. Respect her and it will return to you eventually. Hey man, we love ya. At least you are here and not completely denying everything. It's a step in the right direction. Take the next one Talk to you soon, Tim 


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Jake-

I posted the above (How Dare You,, etc.) without reading the subsequent posts, so my response was to your initial email. I was reacting to your "answering to God" portion of your original email. I have read all the posts, including the ones about your latest dilemma. Here, my friend, is the deal---although the following may seem impractical, please listen to what I am telling you, you may rescue your life.......

1. God loves you no matter what you do. All you have to do is accept God's love. This is not some phony thing, not something you have to live up to. We cannot possibly do anything that compares with God's creation of us, the air, the sun he has given us, the food. You keep trying to live up to something, to prove that you are worthy. You are not. Nor am I. Neither are we unworthy. The matter is out of our hands, decided. God has already given us all we need. :)

2. Really, really work on loving yourself. Completely. You are not your thoughts. You are not your best moments. You are not your worst moments. You just are. :)

3. Other people cannot affect your love of yourself. Other people can affect your material circumstances. Other people can withhold things your body needs. Other people can hit you, yell at you, create unpleasurable feelings for you. To other people that do these things, (mother-in-law?) you have a choice- 1. become enraged, 2. argue your point 3. accept that your mother in law has a mental problem which causes her to criticize, and control her own daughter. :)

3. Nothing you ever do, heroic or criminal, need ever affect God's love for you, or how you feel about yourself. There are plenty of serial killers that love themselves; there are plenty of heroic social workers who hate themselves. There is no correlation between achievement and self-esteem, between achievement and love of self. We might tell ourselves that some are going to heaven, and some are going to hell. HOW DO WE KNOW THAT? We do not, quite simply. It may well have appeared that Saul of Tarsus was going to hell; after all, he was a murderer of Christians - could there be a worse person? Well, Saul ended up as the Paul who wrote most of the new testament letters. Forgiven by God for his monstrous sins, he lived out his life spreading the doctrine of love. What if Paul hadn't been able to forgive himself, but had spent all his time kicking himself for having killed all those people? Well, he wouldn't have been able to spread the word of truth, forgiveness, and love. :)

4. Love your wife as yourself. Love your mother-in-law as yourself. Love your children as yourself. Love this new friend of yours as yourself. :)

5. What is the deal with this new friend of yours? Are you going to pursue a relationship with her? This is premature Jake. Yes.

6. I don't know how old your children are, but your separation from your wife will sadden them. Acknowledge and validate their sadness. Don't tell them how they "should" feel. Don't do that with anyone, but with children it's particularly cruel, because children can't defend themselves. Your children aren't here for your benefit, they're here to love life, themselves, other people and God, just as you and I are. They are at a crucial learning stage, when they are especially dependent on others, just as you and I were. How do you hope they feel in five years, in ten years, about life? Yes.

7. If you can, tell us a little bit about your wife. What is she like, how did you meet her, what does she want? Sure, she listens to her parents too much, as we all do until we grow up emotionally, but what else? What does she like to do?

There are many roads to choose right now. I fear you are jumping from crisis to crisis, what with a new woman in your life who is already calling your wife, from whom you've been separated only three months. Be strong, and do the right thing. Let those who would judge you, judge you----- and (gulp) love them anyway. (Hey, it's all in the New Testament, I didn't make this stuff up!) God bless you, and God speed to you and your family. Very cool.


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Alright Jake....that's it, the gloves are off. I'm gonna be frank and blunt with you.

1) YOU ARE ABUSVIVE.....KNOCK IT OFF with all the reasons why you aren't!!!

2) That's JUST TOUGH....that other woman called your wife.

3) Your mess....YOU CLEAN IT UP.

4) If you had really been busy working on your marriage....there wouldn't be another woman phoning your wife.

5) You just want to have your cake and eat it to.

6) What you abuse you lose.

7) GROW UP...and stop feeling sorry for yourself all the time.....woe is me....give me a break ......ENOUGH WITH THAT!!!!

Sad, but true.


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Your words from your last reply: "Now, my wife thinks that I asked this woman to call my wife... She is not letting me have the kids this coming weekend. We have not yet formalized visitation, so she has the power to do that. I never thought she would try to manipulate me using the kids, but she is doin it now. I am getting fed up, and I am worrying this is going to escalate to a more worse situation. What should I do now?"

NOTHING!! DO NOTHING!!! This situation can escalate, and you will be the cause of it, not your wife. Look at it from her side, can you do that? She left you, she is in pain too, not just you. It is just as hard for her as it is for you. After only 3 mns apart she gets a phone call from another woman. Why is it so terrible that she assumed you set this up? She assumed wrong, so HANDLE IT. Where is it written that she should automatically reach the correct conclusion about the other woman's phone call. Your wife is hurting, angry, and confused. She reacts by not letting you see the children this weekend. Even if you don't think her reasoning is logical, she has the power to make that choice right now, whether you like it or not. HANDLE IT! That's reality. Yes.

Your visitation is taken away ONE time and you are ready to go to war. To you, this is unacceptable. How dare she act this way. That's what you are thinking. You are "fed up." In other words YOU are the one who is angry because you are not getting your way. It is perfectly understandable why your wife is not allowing visitation this weekend, but not to you. Your wife got a phone call from another woman. Why isn't your wife allowed to have her feelings? Why can't you say to your wife, "I'm sorry you got the phone call. I understand it upset you." You think she shouldn't be upset. Who put you in charge of the universe? She can feel any way she wants, whether she's right or not. EXACTLY!

I hope Dr Irene jumps in here soon with some comments because you are on your way to no visitation rights. You can't accept that right now she legally has the power to stop you from seeing the children. This makes you mad. It makes you mad because you believe deep inside yourself that everything should be just the way to want it to be. How dare the world do something that you don't like! Until you understand this, your life will be full of anger and miserable. Keep coming here for support and, because we do care what happens to you. You don't need my comments. You are so very right on... 


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

I must say that I have visitation rights, at least in the country I live in. I could even take the kids to my home and live with them, but I would never do anything like that. I believe children should always (most of the cases) be with their mother; they need her more that they need me. So I am just stating what my rights are.

Now, I do I agree with the last post that she has a right to her feelings, but so do I. And so do my kids. I will accept her power to do what she is doing, but it is not in her right. To me, justice is giving everyone what they deserve. Now I am the father of my children and I have been a good one, at least my wife and her mother acknowledge that, so the problem my wife and I have has nothing to do with the kids, and the relationship they have with me.

But I agree, I am going to have compassion and understanding for my wife because of the other woman's call, and wait until she realize that the kids need me too.

Another thing, I am just seeing this woman, she happened to be a sweet heart of mine when we were young, and she is now divorced. We have talked about our lives and I have told her that I want to redo my life, but at the moment I am still in love with my wife. I told her that so she will never claim that I gave her hope. I know I can not be involved with another woman, but I need to go out, it is hard to come back to an empty house. But I never thought that she would ever call my wife; that was out of the question then. She apparently cares for you more than you care for her.


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Dear Jake, You sound a lot like my husband. I am not sure if you are looking for advice about how to deal with your wife, and I think Dr. Irene said it pretty well - you need to deal with you, not her. After all, you only have permission to deal with yourself, right? Since you cannot get inside someone else's head - and you do not have a right to do that - I suggest you get inside of your own and spread everything out in the light and look at it. Since you are not objective about yourself, no one is, and this is a new skill, maybe you need to find a professional who you can trust to help you do this. Whether or not your marriage survives this, and I really think it could, you still have to live with you. You are worth waiting for, aren't you? Good luck! Michelle :)


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Ok, I haven't talked much about that I am dealing with myself. I am. I started this post talking about people advising people to divorce, because it is a matter of accepting or leaving. I want to hear those people talking about tolerance, understanding, getting professional help, etc. 

But again, I am working on myself, on my anger management problem, trying to rethink before I act, and actually I am doing pretty good, but I know I have to continue on this. I got a message from the maid saying that my wife is not letting me have the children this weekend. I did not jump ahead and call  her when I got the message. I was angry, yes, but I am going to wait to be calm  to talk to her. I haven't yet called her yet. So this must be a major improvement, not reacting and thinking over before I act. GOOD!

I know I have an anger management problem, but what about controlling? I do not think I am more controlling that my wife is. It doesn't matter whether or not your wife is controlling! I saw a post here from someone who thinks that we are all controlling one time or another. Yes. I do agree. My point here is that I do not think I am more controlling than the average person. But again, I may be wrong. You are wrong.

Please, if any of you is going to try to convince me that I am more controlling than average, do so, but do it by giving specific examples of my behaviour. I will listen and think about it, but do me a favor, do not jump to conclusions just because I am a man and you have had a bad experience with a controlling husband. That would be very wrong. 

I want to listen, I want to understand where I went wrong.

Thank you all. Jake, then please reread all the posts. They have been specific! 


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Jake. I was the fifth posting recommending the Patricia Evans book to you. Keep in one thing in mind, don't worry about comparing yourself to your wife, etc. Just FOCUS on yourself without worrying about anyone else. Read what you can about anger. Control and anger go hand in hand. YES! Control is much more than you think. Is it just nasty and obvious? NO. It can be so subliminal you wouldn't even know it. But control is bad. So, hang in there and take everything how it is dished out to you. Yes, some people are a little rough but they took the time to give advice. 

It took me awhile to understand what control, abuse, and anger are all about. I married a man who has a major problem with all of these things and he is just starting to comprehend (like you are!) what it is all about. It takes awhile to really dig deep and understand what is happening. So....keep an open heart and an open mind about all of this and you will succeed. Another great book is "Grow Up...How taking responsibility can make you a happy adult" by Dr. Frank Pittman. Great book. Easy read. Remember, the first step in any situation is to accept responsibility first. That is half the battle. You are on your way! Good luck to you. Yes - An excellent book!

 


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Thank you for your posting. Yes I believe some people are a little rough, however I thank them for the time they took to give me advice. I understand why they have been a little rough on me, they relate me to their husbands and their experiences. You are a wise man.

I have been with a couple of good male friends of mine who are divorced. They say quite bad things about their wives, but I would never think that their wives are the way they describe them, it is just one side of the story. The only thing I could advice them is to look inside of them, just as you people recommend to me, and to be empathetic with their wives. That is it, I would not say anything else.

Now, I do know that I have to look inside of me, and I am. But what bothered me, not anymore, is that my wife and her mother treat me like I am the worse person in the world. I have learned to be compassionate with them, and I am asking God to forgive them for that. I do not want to have hate in my heart. Then give them time. Jake, they are angry.

I said that their attitude bothered me since it is pretty hard to believe the treatment I received from the people who yesterday were supposed to love me. Now they hate me. There is no gray area here, just black and white for them, they chose that, and I accept it.

I am working on myself now. :)


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Dear Jake,

It just happens that I lived in Mexico, married to a Mexican, 30 years ago. He was so abusive (physically) that my children were almost left without a mother.

During the time that I lived in Mexico, I had the opportunity to make a lot of observations about what was acceptable and what was not, both from the husband and from the wife. Mexico had (and I know STILL has) a very definite double standard. There is a WORLD of difference between what a respectable man may do and what a respectable WOMAN may do.

The language reflects this pretty well. "Esposas" means wives, but it also means "hand-cuffs." Men usually referred to their wives as "mi mujer" (my woman), not "mi esposa." I heard many men say to their wives, "Te quiero." (I want you), but rarely "Te amo" (I love you). I was expected to call my husband, "Mi rey," (my king), but he called me "gorda" (fatty), which is supposedly a term of endearment!

A very respectable man may have a mistress if he can afford one, but a woman may not have a lover. I once tried to have the police put Miguel in jail for beating me (I was bloody all over from a head wound), and the police, when they arrived, just laughed and asked me what I had done to HIM to deserve that! When I talked to my father-in-law about it, he told me that a beating was nothing, that I had the "honor" of being Mrs. _____, and all the social respect that goes with it! This is exactly the cultural stuff that makes it harder for Jake.

For the record, his other three wives, all Mexican, didn't last any longer than I did: About four years was all that any of us could tolerate, and one left after a single year. One of his wives said that he never hit her, but she was just tired of being treated like a piece of furniture.

Did you ever ask her what she wanted and then do it her way? Even if you didn't like the idea?

Did you treat her like an equal? When she said, "I don't like it when you do ___, did you stop doing that or did you make excuses for doing it your way? Or if she was too afraid to SAY she didn't like something, did she show you she didn't like what you were doing? Did you ask her if you had hurt her feelings? If she was in a bad mood, did you ask what was wrong and PAY ATTENTION to what she said? Or did you just blow it off?

Were you ever man enough to admit you were wrong? (I assume that you are a human being and therefore you DO make mistakes!) Or did you insist that you were right, even when you KNEW that you were wrong. How much time did you spend on "saving face" when it meant that she was humiliated?

How many times did you accuse her of doing things that she hadn't done? How many times did you say something mean and watch her cry?

How many times did she ask you for something, and how many times did she get what she asked for, whether it was five minutes of your time, or a bouquet of flowers from the "mercado?"

Did you dump your problems on her (or not share them at all), but complain if she needed someone to talk to about HER day? (I have had my share of maids, and they can drive you crazy at times!) Did you ever fire a maid, just to get even with her?

Did you ever ask for her advice, or ask her about a decision that would affect the family, or did you just make the decisions and let her know about them later? When you took a vacation, did you ask her where she wanted to go or did you just make the plans and tell her where the family was going?

Yes, women in Mexico are very close to their mothers. The women I knew were married to men who were like their fathers, and so their mothers have had the same experiences, and are no closer to solutions than I was! But women who have had the same experiences are VERY close to each other, whether they are related or not!

How do I know that not much has changed? The city I live in has about one third Spanish-speaking residents, I translate Spanish/English for the city and county emergency telephone system. (911) Nine out of ten calls that I translate are about drunken husbands, violent husbands, abusive husbands, not about stolen cars or heart attacks. I get calls from women's shelters, from hospitals, from grocery stores, from churches...

You say that you are not abusive. I ask "Compared to what?" Do you compare yourself to your friends? I think this is definitely a cultural thing, since I saw much more abuse than "love" while I lived there. Abuse was so common it was "normal." A man who didn't "control" his wife was laughed at by his peers! You "just" wanted to control your marriage... Well, that was your wife's whole world! So you can safely assume that "her whole world" was worse than what she could tolerate. It doesn't mean that she was weak, just that she couldn't live as you wanted her to live! She couldn't make herself into the image of what you wanted, and it was wrong of you to expect her to do that. (And YES, that's what you did.)

I have some more bad news for you. There is a serious shortage of good counselors in Mexico. I hear this from friends who live there now. If there is a shortage in the D. F., you can be sure that there is a shortage everywhere else too! But if you are serious about getting help, look for someone who was educated in the USA, someone who has read the book by Patricia Evans. A psychologist, not a psychiatrist.

If you choose not to do this, you can look forward to losing more relationships. Mexican women are changing faster than Mexican men are!

Good luck. Thank you.

 
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Jake: First of all, congratulations for even WANTING to figure all of this out--you are miles ahead of most people! Yes! And you are taking this tough feedback very well. Also, good for you for waiting to cool down before talking to your wife about visitation; hasty action now could lead to major problems in that area later. Please make sure, that your kids know and feel that you love them, and DON'T talk badly about your wife to them. Remember that they love and need you both. You've been given some good advice and feedback, so I won't repeat what others have said so well. Just work on YOUR issues and let her work on hers (I know that's hard)! Quit defending and justifying yourself--that's a waste of time. Use your energies to work on yourself and take care of your kids. And please--don't muddy the waters by confiding in an old sweetheart! Good advice... Find a supportive, emotionally healthy male friend to talk with if you need to "vent." After all, how would you feel if your wife were confiding in a former boyfriend? Can you understand why she feels angry and threatened? And how can you think clearly about your marriage and deal with yourself if you are emotionally intimate with another woman? You just might decide that the "solution" is to be with her, (especially if she seems to accept you as you are) thus giving you a "reason" to stop working on your behaviors and attitudes. Please be careful! Again, I find it encouraging that you are willing to listen to what others think. I appreciate your desire to learn. I hope it's an on-going desire that will lead to a richer and more fulfilling life for you! Becky


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

There are some question in one of the last post I would like to think about and answer.

Did you ever ask her what she wanted, and then do it her way? Even if you didn't like the idea? Sometimes. There has been many times where I have done her way. I can not say it has been all the time, but yes there has been many times where she had her way. I most truly say that she has had more times her way than I have had my way. But again the last sentence is true at period of times, meaning that we both have had our ways at certain times. Those times she got her way, did her way come easily to her, or was it a struggle?

Did you treat her like an equal? When she said, "I don't like it when you do ___, did you stop doing that or did you make excuses for doing it your way? Ok, I have to say that at the beginning of our marriage I did not treat her as an equal. I had a hard time realizing that, but I chose to change and I did. The last years of my marriage, my attitude was that she was my equal, but I am sure she did not realize it. I do not think she did.

Or if she was too afraid to SAY she didn't like something, did she show you she didn't like what you were doing? She has her own way to show when she does not like what I am doing, but the same is true the other way around. I most say we both at fault here.

Did you ask her if you had hurt her feelings? Never, I just feel sorry for that. In the future, ask. A woman can't know what is in your heart if you don't tell her.

If she was in a bad mood, did you ask what was wrong and PAY ATTENTION to what she said? When she is in bad mood, I better run, and I did. I hate been close to her when she is a bad mood. Jake, it's OK if she's mad...even at you. It just means she needs to blow off a little steam. Don't take it personally. (Most controllers do.)

Or did you just blow it off? I think I did.

Were you ever man enough to admit you were wrong? (I assume that you are a human being and therefore you DO make mistakes!) I have and she most of the time has not. The problem here is that saying "I am sorry" is not good enough. It loses its meaning after a while...

Or did you insist that you were right, even when you KNEW that you were wrong. Yes, and I am sorry for that. You're getting real honest. Good for you!!!!

How much time did you spend on "saving face" when it humiliated HER? I am not familiar with that expression. Trying to look "good" at her expense.

How many times did you accuse her of doing things that she hadn't done? Not even once, but she has done it many times, she is an expert on accusing me of doing things that I hadn't done. That's saddens me. Me too.

How many times did you say something mean and watch her cry? Some times, mostly at the beginning of my marriage, but I felt bad about it, I would do anything to make her stop crying.

How many times did she ask you for something, and how many times did she get what she asked for, whether it was five minutes of your time, or a bouquet of flowers from the "mercado?" Not too many times. Ouchhh. But, I do like your honesty.

Did you dump your problems on her (or not share them at all), but complain if she needed someone to talk to about HER day? (I have had my share of maids, and they can drive you crazy at times!) Yes I have dumped my problems on her and have not shared them with her. I did not want to add more problems to her than she has. A Partner WANTS you to share your problems... On the other hand, I did not know what she wanted when she needed someone to talk to about her day. I learned too late that she just wanted for me to listen and shout my mouth up. I did not even realized that is what I needed too. Yes.

Did you ever fire a maid, just to get even with her? I do not handle the maid. The maid can not have two bosses, so she was the only one to handle the maids. Smart man.

Did you ever ask for her advice, or ask her about a decision that would affect the family, or did you just make the decisions and let her know about them later? Few times, and I am sorry about that. Good for you for being honest.

When you took a vacation, did you ask her where she wanted to go or did you just make the plans and tell her where the family was going? I do not think this is an issue in my marriage, since I truly do not know who was the first one to talk about vacations.

Thank you for your questions. I am trying to be as much honest as possible. Yes. That is wonderful...  I may even show her this post, but I do not think it is going to make a difference now. Show it to her anyway. She has quite clear stated that she does not love me anymore, and I have to be grateful since the last 3 or 4 months when we were living together was a real nightmare for me; I knew she stopped loving me. I do not want ever to live that kind of treatment from her again. Loving someone and not being loved back is the most terrible thing that can happen to anyone, but worse if they live together. Jake, sometimes another person who does love you can be so very, very angry with you, they no longer feel any love. If you change, in time, her anger may evaporate.


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Jake, I'm glad you asked for some specific examples and someone gave you some and you did recognize some of them. As someone else posted on here, controlling behavior can be very hard to see until you hear of some examples of situations. Then you read the examples and think "Yes, I guess I have done that many times". It does start to make more sense. This is what I have discovered also. That is why I suggested that you read Patricia Evans book, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship " because it will help you to see yourself from your wife's point of view. It will enlighten you and you will probably say, "Wow, THAT is what they were talking about, I did not even realize I was doing that". Yes.

The reason you might not is because you may have been "Saving Face". This means, you realize yourself that you are wrong, but your pride will not let you admit it, so you almost create a false reality to prove you are right in your wife's eyes so you can "Win" and be right. When you do this over and over you actually start to believe it yourself. The tongue (spoken words) is very powerful. Yes!

Are you starting to understand? Great, so am I buddy, I'm not very far ahead of you. But when you start to see some of the things you have been doing for what they really are, you can make great progress if you continue to get yourself help. You must continue to get yourself help, don't stop when you get comfortable, as I did. When my last marriage failed, even though I tried as hard as I could to "Change" my wife's feelings, it ended in divorce. Don't make the same mistake I did. I was more worried about her than I was about me, just as you were when you fist wrote to us. 

I can see you are finally learning. The "OLD" you was really fighting us at first. You must re-learn many things. The scars will take a while to heal in both of you. Also, about her not loving you any more. This may be true. This may also may not be true, and even she does not know it. Her love for you may be covered up with all this other crap. It is possible that if you really take hold of all this advice, read good books on this subject, email Dr. Irene for some advice stop plugging me please and you really begin to make progress, it's possible that your wife will blossom if she sees you changing and sincerely feels that you are really sorry and you finally understand her and where she is coming from. There may be hope. My wife has told me her love is "Gone" in the past. Then after things would improve and I would try my best, she would be telling me she loved me within weeks. Unfortunately, I would fall back into my controlling her etc. and we would go around in circles in this cycle. 

There is only so many times a woman can do this before her spirit is totally closed off to you. It is different for every woman. That is why you must do what is right. Listen to the people who know. You can't trust your natural reactions right now because they are probably totally wrong. You must stop and think, "Why am I feeling this? Is this a valid fact or am a assuming the worst about this situation? Why am I angry" etc etc etc. You see. And you will find that many of your automatic assumptions about different situations are what is getting you in trouble. THAT is why you don't feel like you are a "Bad" person and that you are not "Controlling" because you have never stopped to question your own minds assumptions. :) 

This is deep stuff man. I'm sure there have been many times you have hurt your wife emotionally, but you did not mean to. It was simply your mind doing what it has learned to do, "Protect Jake at all costs". You see, some of this stuff is on a sub-conscious level. You don't think to your self and rationalize, "Damn, she's right, I AM wrong, but I'm going to act like I don't know what she is talking about and manipulate her into thinking I was really only try to accomplish such and such". You see??? In you mind you don't think that way. It just goes on auto pilot. And by the time you realize what you have said or done it's too late, the damage to your wife has been done, so you say "I'm sorry, I over reacted" when you come to your senses. THEN, you do it again and again and again. Does this sound familiar Jake? Maybe not but I have a hunch it does. These examples are what I identify with. O.K., Wow! I hope you understood all that. Is there anything I can explain to you in more detail or anything specific you want to ask me Jake? I'm here for you brother. :)

Tim


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Tim:

Thanks for your post. I am thinking about what you said. I have to say that my father abused my mother verbally, I always knew he did. I thought it was a normal thing. He never called her names, but he put her down many times and so he did with us. Moreover, I am the middle child of 6 brothers and sisters so I developed I sense of self protection. I guess I did not know better. Correct. Neither did your dad.

When I get married I came to expect certain things, which I thought it were natural things to do, but did not realize that the expectation of the other spouse might be different that oneself. Yes.

Now I did not yet tell you something else, which is very important in my life. I was married once before; it lasted less than a year (10 month). What happened was that she was the perfect mate for me. We were dating for 5 years, and I decided to marry her because she was very good to me, no matter what I did. She gave me everything I needed without  given her anything back. She only wanted me, whatever that means.

I broke up with her because she started asking for the things in our marriage she did not ask for before we got married. She was not as perfect a mate as I thought, and once she let me go, I ran out. I know all of this is wrong, and I even apologized to her so many times, it breaks my heart I did something like that to a human being. But I was the same before and got married as when we were married. I thought, how could I be blame of being someone she already knew who I was. I never loved this girl, I never did. I married her for the wrong reasons. You were both dishonest...

After that I met the most beautiful girl in my eyes, I felt in love like I never ever did in my life. She was all I wanted from life. I gave her everything I had, even my soul. But guess what? I was still used to the treatment my first wife got me used to. I know that treatment was wrong and I knew I had to change that, and I changed quite a lot. But It was not enough for my wife.

Now I've changed a lot since I met my wife and during my marriage, but the changes were not enough and it discourages me. For example, for a person who has a bank account of $1 Mlllion giving away $1,000 is nothing but for a person who has a bank account of $10,000, $1,000 is a lot. Same thing here, my wife was expecting a husband with some attributes, but I could not reach those attributes, because I was still working on my wrong attribute, which I wanted to change. I got discouraged because my changing was not enough. I knew I was behind schedule here, but I could not change overnight, at least I did not know how to. We were dating 1 or 2 months when I proposed to her, because I was really in love with her, but I did not have enough time to change what I had to change. However, I would not have changed as much as I did if I had not met her and married her. My love for her gave me the strength behind the force to change, to mature. I thank her for that.

But now, I really do not know how I feel. There are principles in my life which give me the direction for a better live. One of them is the value of family and to be responsible for my children. I would always be there for my kids. Good for you!

However, I do not know if I love my wife any more. I truly do not know. I do not want to divorce, but I am thinking perhaps I do not for the wrong reasons. I just do not know. I am confused here. Confusion is good. It means you are really thinking...

I may be wrong, but I do not think I will ever be happy with my wife. I have resentment against her, and so does she. I am getting very convinced that I would never ever be able to communicate with her. These two statements are convincing me that I would never be able to be happy with her, and this is assuming that she loves me, which I do not think she does anymore.

Do you know how many times I have thought about having a new healthy relationship with someone else? So many times, and I think that it will be my goal after I understand what you people are talking about. Be careful here: don't go into that space where the grass is greener. Start by having that healthy new relationship with yourself first.


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Jake,

I just want to say you sound very, very confused. You want to "fix" your marriage by "fixing" your wife. You can't fix her, she isn't broken. Jake, you need to concentrate on yourself **not on your needs**. Very well put... IF your wife sees a man she wants to be with, you will have her. IF IF IF It is HER CHOICE, not her obligation. There is A REASON she doesn't want to be around you. QUIT BLAMING her mother. Do you want to hold onto someone who is with you out of obligation, or desire? :)


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Jake, thank you for your replies.


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Dear Jake,

Why don't you stop bothering yourself about what someone else is doing, and start thinking about what JAKE is doing? After all, Jake is the ONLY person you are ever going to actually change--and the only adult person you are responsible for.

It is actually not your responsibility to say "This is a right thing for her to do" or to "let" her do something. It IS your responsibility to tell her when you are hurt or sad or even happy about something she says or does. It IS your responsibility to join with her to build the kind of relationship where each of you LIKES doing and saying the things that please their partner.

The marriage you describe does not seem to have a whole lot of honesty in it, just a lot of fear and anger--and those are feelings that lead right to the desperate need to control the situation. If you start working on understanding and healing from some of your own fear and anger, at the very least you can unbalance the situation enough to make some positive changes.

Best wishes, Gayla   :)


Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000

S1

Hey Jake, it's Tim again. It sounds like you are starting to come to terms with your feelings a little more. It's a start. I think what may be confusing you now is the fact that maybe your reason for not wanting a divorce was for "Fear". Fear of what it is going to look like? Another failed marriage? Fear of taking care of your kids alone. (That's not easy) Fear of being alone, embarrassment etc. etc.. I could be wrong but, maybe you hid behind the shield that "getting divorced is wrong" and "I love my wife" and "This will hurt the kids". Maybe your real motivations behind some of your actions are now starting to surface and your reality that you have created is now beginning to tumble and your are left with having to figure out what it is your really want and most of all "WHY" you want it. What is your motivation behind what you are doing???

Think about that Jake, try taking fear out of the picture or whatever it is that you are grasping on to, and rethink Jake. What does Jake want???

This is why you need to get help for YOU. So that you can understand what you really want. Your brain needs renewing. You need a 100,000 mile service tune-up there Pal.

Talk to me.

 

Tim  :) :) :)


Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

Jake- You seem to be doing a lot better, that is, you seem to be taking more responsibility and getting in touch with your feelings. Good for you! The cultural thing is tough. I live in a town in Northern California where 60% of the population are of Mexican descent, and most of my friends are Chicano, and there is the whole concept of "Machismo" and what a real man does. This will make things harder, and even more confusing. By what standards do you judge controlling behaviors by? It seems you are really starting to let go of your wife. This is good. Examine your behavior, and keep on moving forward. Love, SatokoGirl


Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

Tim:

I do think that I am confused; now is the fact that maybe my reason for not wanting a divorce was for "Fear". Fear that this marriage and any other I may have in the future is as good as it gets, i.e., this is the best I can get.

But I have no fear of taking care of the kids alone, since she has them - and the time I spend alone with them I will always have help, either from my mother or the maid.

I do think I had fear of being alone, but not anymore. I have found out that being alone is much better than to live with someone you love but who does not love you back. I still think that getting divorce is wrong and it is going to hurt the children, but I am not longer sure I love my wife anymore. I have wanted to hate her, but I have not been able, besides, I do not want to have hate in my heart. Jake, please pay close attention: As your deepest feelings and motivation in marrying your wife rise to the surface, pay attention to your anger. Pay attention to that part of you that expects whatever you expect from your partner. Pay attention to how angry and hurt you become when you don't get what you expect. Ask yourself how reasonable your expectations are. Ask yourself if she is entitled to have the exact same expectations, and what would ensue if she did...


Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

Jake, Love is a decision, the emotional side of it is just one aspect of it. As you discover more about yourself and get your thought process under control. You will be less dependent on others for your happiness. Then you are free to just love them because you want to and not just to get love in return. Let God fill the void in your heart that no one else on this Earth can do. God has reserved that place for him only. That is why people always come running back to God when they discover once again that only HE can TRULY meet their emotional needs. Don't jump to any conclusions yet. Find your self first. If you can't find a good counselor in your area, pay DR. Irene to counsel you via E-mail. Please stop plugging me... Yes, by all means try to find a counselor. Read, read, read! Take a look too at the support options this site has. Feel free to suggest a new support option. If there is a way I can reasonably pull it together to support anyone asking for it, I will.  You can only do so much by your self. If you truly want to break free of these things and not just suppress them for a while, you will need some help. And that is ok. Trust me. If you don't get the proper help now, you will get better for a while, then you will slide back into your pit. OK? Yes. Because each time you get a part of it, you think you got it - but you didn't. You only started getting it... How have you been Jake? I've been struggling to just have normal conversations with my wife because our our rocky past. Their is a lot of bitterness and anger there that is going to take a while to fade, but I'm dealing with it the best I can. It made me feel a little better when she apologized to me today for her getting impatient with me this morning so I know she at least acknowledges that she is making it a little rougher by snapping at me. But hey, ONE DAY AT A TIME.


Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

P.S. that last post was from me, Tim


Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

Tim:

That is my problem. I think there is some much bitterness in my wife which I do not think I will ever be able to become the man and husband she wants. How much bitterness is in you because she is not the wife you wanted? She was not like the woman who (temporarily) would do anything for you? Besides, no matter how many people suggest the contrary, my mother-in-law is always reminding her that she should not come back to me. I know since a couple of friends are telling me that, i.e., my wife is saying that she has trouble seeing the truth because of her mother. Jake, the bitterness is in you, and you do not think you are able to become the man and husband she wants. If you change and slowly earn your wife's love back, she is likely to convince mom to let the two of you. I think all this mom wants is for her daughter to be happy.


Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

"A woman marries a man thinking she can make him change... but he doesn't. A man marries a woman thinking she won't change... but she does." - Author unknown :)


Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000

S1

The unknown author has to talk to me to see if I have not really changed. I have, and this is not the first time. I have changed during my marriage several times, problem is that my wife did not noticed, or maybe the changed was not good enough, but I changed anyway and I am changing still. Not "not good enough," just not BIG enough, yet. The person who has done the changing is always much more acutely aware of the changes than is any observer. While your wife may notice the new stuff, there is likely to be too much old stuff breaking through for her to feel something significantly different has occurred. Rule of thumb: measure your change at 6 month intervals.

Now, did my wife change, yes, she did for not for the better, at least not have what she wanted or see that what she wanted could be achievable.


Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

I have read the posts over and over again, and I still have problems understanding a couple of things, since I do not see them as quite related to me. I know I have things to change and I am.

Now something very incredible just happened. The maid has resigned. We both agreed that she is the best maid we could have and she takes incredible good care of the kids. So far I have not hear any complains from my wife about the maid. In our marriage, we have had so many maids, I can not believe it, and I have never been bossy with any of them, except of one, who was mistreating my wife when she was pregnant.

Now, I have asked the maid what went wrong, and she tells me she can not stand my mother in law, and my wife is letting my mother in law be in charge of everything. It is like my mother in law has 3 kids: my wife and my 2 kids. This is really saddens me, since we are going to lose a very good person who is in charge of our kid and who loves them very much. Besides, there are going to be so many new maids coming in and out, my kids are going to be suffering so many loses time after time. Your mother in law seems to have a lot of power. 


Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

It sounds like there are three people in this marriage: Jake, his wife and his Mother In Law. Jake has some problems with control and expectations, but I don't see how he and his wife can really resolve anything if she always runs to her Mother. She needs to learn to grow up and be more responsible for herself, too, doesn't she? Of course she does. But for whatever reason, she's not.


Date: Friday, May 19, 2000

S1

Yes, Jake, it sounds like even after you figure out yourself, you will have to handle some other issues. But they will be much easier to handle all by themselves once you get your head straight and figure out some internal things.

I don't know how to tell you how to handle the mother in law. Does anyone else have suggestions? Probably the best way to handle a woman like this is to accept that she is who she is, to be aware of your competitive feelings with her for your wife's affection; to tolerate them and do nothing. The more you can build your relationship with your partner, and the happier your partner is with you, the less important significant others become. I would still say, just work on your self for now. You have much reading to do there buddy. Just do your best. Think before you speak. This is so very important! BIG! Think before you assume something in your brain. Think, "Why am I mad?" etc. etc....And put the rest in God's hands, because he is in complete control through all this. He is hoping you will get your relationship straight with him. That is what God wants the most. But, He gives you free will... After all, you will be with your wife for a brief time on this Earth, but you will be with God for eternity. God has faith in you Jake, He never lost it. Pray continually. Take care of Jake first. Sorry I don't have any suggestions for the mother in law part. Nothing comes to mind. I really think that is out of your hands right now anyway. You are really not in a position where she is going to listen to you. No. Your mother in law is concerned strictly with her daughter's happiness. If your daughter is not happy with you, neither is her mother.

Talk to you soon. Tim P.S. Dr. Irene. I was thinking the same thing re; . "I wonder if your counselor, not fluent with abuse issues, turned your wife off by further upsetting the balance of power?" I'm glad you said that because I forgot to. :)

Jake, do you remember if the counselor validated any of your actions or told your wife she was too sensitive or something? Controllers can put on a great act in front of counselors.

Jake, Be sure to go back and read Dr. Irene's comments on the posts.  Tim :) And be sure and go back and read Tim's posts, and I'm sure you already have...


Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

Dr Irene said that when I married my wife also I married her family, especially her mother. This is not the first time I have heard that, but the problem is that I feel that I had no a private life with my wife since everything that goes inside my house, my mother in law (MIL) knows it, whether is good or bad. That type of family enmeshment makes establishing a marriage more difficult. Besides, my MIL controls my wife very well, and so she (MIL) has tried to control my marriage. My MIL decided how many kids we should have. She is constantly telling my wife, even in front of me, that she should only have one kid after my son was born. Think this way: She is entitled to her opinion; let it go. Then my daughter was born accidentally and MIL was working even harder so my wife and I do not have anymore kids. MIL could be as convinced as she wants. If you don't go here and therefore don't make it a power struggle, things progress more smoothly. Let it go. My wife is so convinced that we should not have anymore kids. It is ok by me to have only 2 kids, but it saddens me that the decision was not our, but is was my MIL. The problem is that you give you MIL so much power - that she is seen as controlling your marriage. Had you accepted her crazy ways and let it all go without having to make a STATEMENT, your marriage would have gone more smoothly. Do you see how you participated to create a power struggle with her - and to put your wife in the middle?

Now, back to the question on what happened to our counseling 3 years ago. I did not try to control the counselor as was suggested in one of the post. I was then, as I am now, ready to listen to what was wrong in my marriage. I said everything I said in a calm and truthful way, so did my wife. We never argued in front of the counselor about someone lying. But my wife was very uncomfortable with the counselor's suggestions. Specifically about my boy sleeping with us. My wife and I were very loving to our son, that whenever he got sick he would sleep with us, but then my wife kept letting him sleeping in our bed. I told her to please stop doing it, but she couldn't. I never did anything so she would stop doing it, I only asked her several times. If I were controlling above average, why did I control that? If, in fact, all you did was ask her several times to stop letting the boy sleep with you, you did nothing wrong. My questions: Did you convey anger or dismissal towards her (all you have to do is imply anger; you don't even have to act angrily!)? Did you take the time to find out why your wife felt it was so important for the boy to share your bed? Did you empathize with her and allow the boy to sleep with you simply because it was important to her (since her feelings are very important to you)? Did you do all this while being clear with your position? Also, could your wife have wanted your son to sleep with you to avoid sex?

Nevertheless, the counselor told her how bad was for our marriage and for the boy's health to let him sleep with us. She got uncomfortable since she did not want that to change. We stopped seeing the counselor. Then after a couple of weeks later, she agreed to make a change, but it was never a 100% change. The boy kept on sleeping with us not as often, but he kept sleeping with us even the week before our separation. Your wife compromised. But, it seems that a compromise was not good enough for you. By the way, while our nuclear-family society frowns upon children sleeping with parents, other societies (e.g., tribal) do not. I'm not supporting sleeping with your kid; I'm trying to point out how you created a power struggle when you did not have to.

I am starting to think that I should concentrate on expectation, not on controlling. Concentrate on both. Don't you see how your disapproval of your wife's compromise with sleeping with your son was not good enough for you? You were clearly trying to control the situation. In life, if you do not engage in a power struggle, you will often find that the situation resolves itself... I do agree that there have been times when I have wanted to control a situation but I am not convinced that that is not normal. It is "normal," unfortunately ("normal" defined as 10% or more of the population engaging in such). If just doesn't work.  What I do accept is that I do things and I expect at least something, but not as much, back. I am not saying that I would give to receive, but I expect my giving not to get unnoticed. For instance, the second month we got married, I gave my wife a brand new car, paid in full, and put the car under her name. My mistake was to put the car under her name since I always thought that the car was for the family, but she took it as her personal belonging. I never had a brand new car, so whenever my car broke down, I had to use her car, and that was one of the major issues in my marriage. It is unbelievable, how an expensive gift would turn out to be a problem. The car thing was a wonderful gift you gave. But, you miss the point. You gave a material possession. I am talking about giving emotional gifts. Gifts that have to do with how she feels... Did you know that emotionally and / or physically abusive parents typically feel they have taken good care of their children because they have provided them with good shelter, food, clothes, toys, and other goodies? Did you know that they miss the point of parenting because "doing the right thing" is more important to them than how the child feels? This is why so many of the posts ask you if you paid attention to how she felt.

You see, my wife was not working at that time, I asked her she did not have to work and she took it very pleased. I need a car to run my business, I move a lot during the day, but it is not fair for me to ask her for the car. How could that be? Well, like I said, if the car were under both our names, that would not have been a problem. My MIL would insist on what a bad thing to do for me to use my wife's car, which happens to be paid in full by me. Please, explain where I went wrong, I have no right to use her car which I need to run my business whenever my car brakes down?

Anyway, it seems to me that my wife is going to always vent with her mother, and no matter what I do, I will be judged very strong. I knew that I had an expectation problem, and I have tried to work on that, but I am not sure that what I am supposed to do. Am I supposed to give and do not expect gratitude? I am not saying just "thank you" nor I am expecting the other partner to meet the value of the gift, but to remember that I have given something where I have sacrificed myself, I would love to have a brand new car. In other words, I expect my wife at least never to tell me I do not sacrifice, because besides the car, I have sacrificed myself for my family. There are thousands of related issues like this, where I have expected a little sacrifice from my wife. Never forget that emotional caretaking is more important than physical caretaking...


Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

Jake, I see a problem with the counseling sessions with your wife. This is how I see it. You both talked calmly in front of your counselor. Did the counselor ever know about your angry explosions? The counselor focused on an "odd" behavior which was letting your son sleep with you. So, the counselor thought if he could "fix" that, then your marriage would improve. The focus was removed from the real problems in your marriage and your wife was "blamed."

Maybe your wife didn't have the courage to say what I think is the real reason she allowed your son to sleep with you. To avoid sex, that's what I think. I do not enjoy having sex with someone who screams at me, or puts me down, or tries to make me feel bad about myself. No, I don't forget what was said. No sex is a symptom of problems in the marriage. So true... I bet men who are abused feel the same way toward their partners. Some.

When I was growing up my father was a verbal abuser. My mother would sleep with me or with my brother, we each had separate bedrooms. She never slept with my father. I grew up thinking this was normal, and was surprised to learn that parents slept together and not with their kids. I don't blame my mother. This was a consequence caused by my father's behavior. When I finished high school my mom told my dad that she was leaving, that she was tired of his rages. He changed. You know what? My mom started sleeping with him again.

Personally, I think you are still talking too much about your MIL, and not about yourself. You focus a lot on her which takes the focus off of you. We all have to deal with difficult people in our lives. She is not the primary cause of your problems. Yes.


Date: Saturday, May 20, 2000

S1

I know my MIL is not my primary problem, nevertheless, she is part of my marriage problem. I do agree that my wife wanted to have our son in our bed because she did not want sex, and this caused me to resent her, I have been turn down by her so many times, I stopped approaching her.  I did not want to be rejected anymore. And this, people, is what is keeping me from wanting to be with her. I have never been rejected so much in my life. This is so ironic, since I always protected me so much to avoid been rejected. I am very careful with the people I hung out with, and if there was a possibility of being rejected, I would run away as fast as I can. However, once a level of intimacy with someone has been reached, I would try to keep growing that relationship. That is why I have a couple of very good friends, who despite the distance, we are friends as if time did not matter. Jake, you just said a mouthful... You are emotionally terrified of rejection, something you need to fix internally because you don't yet know there is nothing wrong with the being God made and gave to you. But, your focus on material caretaking with emotional power struggles which push your wife away! Any relatively healthy woman would not want to have sex with you. Sex is an act of love. Your wife rejected you not because there is anything inherently wrong with you, but because you did not know how to emotionally care  for her. Then you compounded your problems by resenting her for not wanting to have sex with a husband who does not care for her emotionally! In avoiding you, she is doing what is right for her - by rejecting an emotionally neglectful partner.

I am a fighter in life, I do not quit. I have gotten out of life what I have fought for, thank God for the strength he has given me. I do not consider my first marriage to be a failure since we both knew it was going nowhere, it was an immature and stupid thing to do. However, losing my business, from which I work for 5 years, and having my marriage broken, both at the same time is something very difficult to handle. But I am. Yes. Please don't dismiss the above paragraph. It is very important that you understand the message. You can do this.

Now I know that my dream of having my own business will not come true. I was not happy while I was having it. Likewise, my marriage is also a dream which will not come true either. It is difficult for me to accept the wrong things from my wife, I am not working toward healing my marriage anymore. I am working on healing myself, working on the happiness of my children and having my eyes open for a new relationship. Please focus first and foremost on emotionally loving yourself. Unless you can do that - be kind to yourself, loving, empathic, while you walk the straight and narrow path of the soul as opposed to the easy path of the ego, you will not find contentment in life.

I want to say something in the most clear way possible. My MIL is what keeping my marriage from healing; to be reunited again. Not only she is working on my wife, but without her knowing it, she is also working on me. I do not hate her, I do not have resentment against her, since I know God is going to lay his justice on everybody, so I feel compassion for her, hoping God will not to strong on her. I truly hope so. No Jake. This is not the work of your MIL. You have done this. And that is good news because if you have the power to have created this mess, you have the power to fix it - or at least prevent same in the future.

I say my MIL is indirectly working on me, since I see what she is doing and done already, for which I will not take it anymore. I will not accept her to control my life again, nor any marriage I may have in the future. I want to be free, free of guilt, free of resentments, free of any negative force in my life, and my MIL was a definite negative force in my life. I will never again let that to happen. No Jake. She became an increasingly negative force as you engaged in the power struggle with her. She could have been your greatest ally.

 


Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Hang in there, Jake. You can have a better life. I've been off and on in therapy, support groups, read self-help books, etc, for years. I'm always looking for ways to help myself, always. It all gave me a better life. Things get better over time. Never stop looking at yourself. You said you're not a quitter. That's good news!

Dr Irene's site has really helped me put a lot of pieces in place. I hope you will stay here. When you think about the stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable, all the stuff that hurts, the stuff you don't want to believe about yourself, that's progress.

Your wife had good reasons for avoiding sex with you. Think about how she must have felt instead of thinking about your resentment. She had her reasons. Can you start by guessing what her reasons were? I don't believe she was punishing you, just avoiding you. It was too uncomfortable for her.


Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Jake- Dan Here.

You're trying real, real, hard. Good for you. I'd like some clarification from you. I have been reading your past few posts, and I feel some of what you are doing is-----

1. You're analyzing your past situations based on who was right, and who was wrong, particularly in regards to your wife.

2. Kind of a side issue, but--You're afraid that God will judge your mother-in-law (MIL), or at least thinking about that.

Do you agree?

Dan

 


Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Dan:

1. Yes I am, how could expect a better future if I am not. I know I could change and I am still changing. But my wife is not changing, at least I do not see any change. Beside, If I come back, assuming my wife wants it, which I do not think she will, I would still have to deal with my MIL, and that is the hardest part. It is the hardest part, yes. But dealing with her or people like her is the lesson you need to learn.

2. I am not afraid god will judge my MIL, I know he will. I just hope he is not going to be too tough on her. I want to forgive her as God forgive us. I truly do. Don't worry about God's judgment on MIL. Consider how God will judge you. He gave you the ability to reason and the gift of free will. I cannot presume what God's will for you might be, but human-to-human, I truly believe your soul's task is to use your free will to overcome your fears, your stubborn tendency to make yourself "right" (e.g., all the business about the car), and your inability to love, respect, and emotionally connect with your very wonderful, very human soul. You clearly don't love yourself. A person who loves themselves would not, for example, resent their spouse not wanting sex with them.  


Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000

S1

Jake- Dan Again.

Thank you for responding to my post, and being honest. You strike me as quite a gentleman. He is a gentleman. (You've got tons of good qualities Jake...)

I guess the reason I asked what I did, well, one by one.......

1. I guess in my own experience, I tend to get trapped analyzing the past, stuck in who's right and who's wrong. My life has gotten a lot better since I stopped doing this, and started checking into my feelings. I just feel a lot more honest this way. I don't really know how you feel about what you're doing....do you feel your analysis of your estranged wife's, and mother-in-law's behavior, is helping you? Do you feel better, or worse, after you've gone through reviewing your past troubles?

2. When you talk about God judging people, I just go nuts, I admit. For me, God is so much more than us, how can we hope to understand? I must admit, I have a sense of having been created, which implies a Creator, but for me, to think I understood His plan would be presumptuous. But that's just me. I don't tell people what to believe either, because I want to hear your honest opinion, not your people pleasing opinion. What is the saying, let us be true enemies, rather than false friends? Well, you and I are far from enemies, I just think we have dramatically different belief systems, which makes it hard for us to communicate on issues like how you should try to bring your family together. I suspect that the saving grace is prayer and hope, which we can all share together.

So how's the weather in Mexico? :)


Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

Dan:

Thanks again for your interest. Here are my comments.

1. I do tend to think about the past, about who is right or wrong, and it makes me feel worse. I know I have to stop thinking about this, and do just the checking of my feelings, but I have found out that I have always done that during the course of my life. However, I have never found a way to just stop thinking that way, but after a while, I would just stop. It is a matter of time. If you know a way of stop thinking about the past, about who is right of wrong, I would appreciate you telling me.   

2. What I mean about God judging my MIL, I believe the only one who can judge people is God. God judges people, he is the only one who will set aside people from right and wrong behaviours. I am going to be judged by God, I try to live my life so God will be merciful with me. The only thing he ask us is that we feel remorse after our sins, since he loves us very much. Same thing with my MIL, she will be judged by God for what she has done wrong in her life. I just hope he would not be too hard on her, I truly do. This business about God judging MIL gently is your way of dealing with your guilt over your hatred of her. Please stop it. I know you think you hate her.


Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

Jake- Dan here. Thank you for your interest in my posts! I am learning a lot from this. I am going to respond to you line by line...... :):)

>Dan:

>Thanks again for your interest. Here are my >comments.

>1. I do tend to think about the past, about >who is right or wrong, and it makes me feel >worse.

OK, so you know that you feel worse after the activity, of thinking about who is right, and who is wrong. You are checking into your feelings to discover this. Hurray! :)

>I know I have to stop thinking about this,

You "know". Sounds like the brain, and not the heart. Do you WANT to stop thinking about this? :)  :)

>and do just the checking of my feelings,

I am going to be very literal in my response here, so try to bear with this line of thinking: it's something I picked up from psychology books, and it sure helped me! (Deep breath) here goes:

Sounds like you are telling yourself that you ought to do something. Why "should" you check into your feelings? You have every right to review your past to find out who's right, and who's wrong, and you have every right to continue to be miserable. Is there anyone reason on earth, that you "should" change? None that I can see! Albert Ellis, Father of Cognitive Psychology, et al... :)

However, a statement which you don't have to prove, and which may make sense, would be, "It would probably prove better for my feeling, and ultimately for my health, if I could learn to check into my feelings". Do you agree? I do.

Jake, if that line of reasoning didn't make any sense, please keep reading, it was just something I hoped might work with you. If it didn't, it didn't. The fault is mine. No fault here. All roads lead to Rome...

>but I have found out that I have always >done that during the course of my life. >However, I have never found a way of just >stop thinking that way, but after a while, >I would just stop. It is a matter of time. >If you know a way of stop thinking about >the past, about who is right of wrong, I >would appreciate you telling me.

Sometimes you just need to think through things for a little while to be satisfied. Nothing right or wrong with this, it just is a fact. We all work at different speeds, and in different ways. I don't know any way for you to stop thinking about the past, but if you wanna hear what I think about this past dissection, here it is:

We hide emotion from ourselves, when we review events in terms of right and wrong. In reality, (I am again using psychology techniques that I picked up from Albert Ellis and his REBT therapy) Aha! there is no right, and there is no wrong, in the case of you, your wife, and your MIL. Can you really prove that any of you is acting rightly or wrongly? I am willing to bet that you can't, without appealing to common sense? I am talking about scientific proof. Prove to me that your MIL meddling, interfering, putting you down in you wife's eyes, is WRONG. Prove it scientifically, if you can. Now prove it is right, if you can. I'll bet you can do neither. It just is. If you WANT to follow my advice, Jake, then keep doing this for a while. If it is too hard to do in your head, starting writing it down! See what you can prove, and what you can't. See if you like writing about yourself, maybe you do, look at all the emailing you've been doing :):):)  :) :) :)

>2. What I mean about God judging my MIL, I >believe the only one who can judge people >is God.

But people judge other people all the time. Do you mean, the only one whose judgment ultimately is important, is God's, because His judgment decides where we spend Eternity?

>God judges people, he is the only >one who >will set aside people from right >and wrong >behaviours.

I don't understand. Does this mean that he will take away our sins?

 

>I am going to be judged by God, I try to >live my life so God will be merciful with >me. The only thing he ask us is that we >feel remorse after our sins, since he loves >us very much.

Forgive me for being way too personal, but are you a Christian?

>Same thing with my MIL, she will be judged >by God for whether she has done wrong in >her life. I just hope he would not be too >hard on her, I truly do.

Sounds like you think she's really gonna get it............ :)   Ooops!

I guess the weather must be really crummy in Mexico.... It's been lousy in New York.

Dan

 


Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

Dan:

1. I do want to stop thinking about who is right/wrong. The problem is that I do not want to do the wrong things as well. I guess you are right about both of us, my wife and me, being right, but I guess I do not want to be wrong any more, at least for my kids' sakes, I do not want to be point by their fingers in the future. I am trying to be careful about what I do from here on, so they will not blame me.

I have a question. I have been accused by my wife of trying to influence the kids, that is so stupid of her, I would not never do something like that. However I am at a point of thinking, hey, I am going to always be accused for everything that is wrong in her life. Here, where we live, she can not file a divorce, we have to have mutual consent or else we will not be divorce for 2 years or until I file for divorce based on her leaving the house.

I do not know what would be my advantage for to file a divorce based on her leaving, but everybody says I should to protect myself. The truth of the matter is that there has to be a benefit for me. Besides, she would look bad in everybody's eyes that she was the one who wanted this.

I am not looking to take advantage of my situation, I just want a peaceful agreement. But the truth is that we will never reach that point since she is always accusing me of things I would never do. She retaliates by being like I was. Very sad Jake.

I also would like to stop taking about God since I have my own understanding about him and so do you; it is going to be difficult for us to understand each other about this. I am a Christian, Catholic and Apostolic, which means I not only believe in God and Jesus Christ but also the church and the Pope. However my problem here is that God will give me what is good for my soul - and if my wife is not good for my soul, God will not give me my wife back.

 


Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

Jake- Dan Here.

Again, thank you for you frank replies. I am learning from you.

I believe you are in a very difficult situation. I believe you live in an area where people are very quick to accuse. I wish you strength, brother. Me too.

I've found, at times, that no matter how difficult life can be, it helps a little bit to write things down. And just write. Not judging myself. In fact, sometimes I write the worst, most horriblest crap possiblest.  

I will pray for you, brother. It's ok to discipline your children, don't be too careful, now. Just do it with love.

We are not going to discuss religion anymore, then. I believe in a religion of my conscience, which means that no matter what a human says to me, I will check in with myself to see if I agree. And I try my best to treat people with respect. I have the utmost respect for all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, animists, and others that I am ignorant of. I will, however, disagree with anyone who asks me to subvert my judgment, even if they tell me to do it in the name of some great religious figure.

 


Date: Monday, May 22, 2000

S1

Jake asked-

"I have a question. I have been accused by my wife of trying to influence the kids, that is so stupid of her, I would not never do something like that. However I am at a point of thinking, hey, I am going to always be accused for everything that is wrong in her life. Here, where we live, she can not file a divorce, we have to have a mutual consent or else we will not be divorce until 2 years or I file a divorce based on house leaving from her part.

I do not know what would be the advantage for me for filing a divorce based on her house leaving, but everybody say I should to protect myself. The truth of the matter is that there got to be a benefit for me, besides, she would be in everybody's eyes that she was the one who wanted this.

I am not looking to take advantage of my situation, I just want I peaceful agreement, but the truth is that we will never reach that point since she is always accusing me of things I would never do, so she retaliate like I was."

 

I don't know---- it sounds like you still would like to reconcile with your wife. Don't give up hope! Keep working on you, it may be premature to file for div-orce. Why not keeping working on your self-improvement, try to get through all the criticism as best you can, these are just people talking, like you say only God can judge right? and see what happens! Hang in there, it takes a while!


Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000

S1

Dr.Irene, This is for Jake. Take time to sit down with your wife and let her know that you love her, respect her and really want to "mend" your ways! I have a controlling husband, I have no friends because of this, anything his family says about me or does to me he always keeps his mouth shut and he always says, "It's my fault"! If you want your wife, be honest with yourself and her. Life is too short to waste and as far as divorce goes, if it's best for everyone involved then it should be - as a last resort. A woman needs to know she is loved for "who she is", not for what you want her to be. Let her be herself and if you have the problem dealing with it then I suggest you look for a place to live. Good Luck, Burl. Good advice. 


Date: Tuesday, May 23, 2000

S1

This morning my wife called to let me know by her that the maid is leaving this weekend. The maid made a comment to someone else that sounded like my wife has been a bad person. I believe it was a misunderstanding, but my wife felt she was mistreated and betrayed by the maid. She had a pretty bad argument with the maid and told to leave this weekend. When she called me, she was pretty upset and cried over the phone, I was so sad to hear my wife crying, that I started crying with her. I gave her all the support I could give her. I shut my mouth and started listening. I just told her that the maid was afraid and that she should not take it personally, i.e., against her. Was that listening? And supportive? Yes. Very much so.

I wanted to be supportive to my wife, and maybe I was, but what my wife did to the maid is what she does to me. She fired a very good maid because she thought something bad about the maid, who is the person we always thought was a good person for our kids. She fired her like she fired me too. I wanted to tell her that she was doing to her what she has been doing to me all along. Moreover, she felt accused by the maid of doing something like she accused me of, i.e., she felt someone was thinking of her so badly, like she feels I am a bad person too. I was going to say something over this, but I kept my mouth shut. Good. I feel so sad that she would never learn to forgive. The maid made a mistake; my wife did not forgive. I made a mistake; my wife did not forgive. Then that is the lesson she needs to learn. But, it is not your place to tell her that. It is your place simply to accept her, without resentment, for all the good and all the bad she is made of. 

It is like she is always right and everybody else is wrong. I am crying here because I can not take this, I can not accept her like that. I wish I could, I truly do, but I can not. My life would never be the same without her, but I can not live with a person who can not forgive and take such terminating decisions. It is like whenever you make a mistake, it is over buddy. Life is not like that. I would always be afraid of this attitude. If I had the divorce papers in front of me I would sign them right away. I am in so much pain for been in love with someone so stubborn like my wife. Maybe then part of your task is to learn to accept this particular fault... 


Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000

S1

Jake-

This is devastating. You are in for some real tough times. A lot of bad things may happen. Through all this-

God loves you. We love you.

Please stay with us! Yes!

ZMD


Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000

S1

ZMD:

How much worse can this become? I am separated from my wife and my kids. I do not see any difference from being divorced. The worst that can happen is that my wife is cheating on me, which I know she is not. We have other problems than that. I am accepting this situation more as time goes by. I do not feel as sad as I did a month ago; and I do not feel nearly as sad as when my wife left me. I know that eventually she will be out of my life and out of my heart. I see every day as one day less that she would still be in my heart.  

It is a painful process, I am feeling it, I am praying God for strength. What I do not understand from all this is that my wife has let me know she is in pain too. So why she is in pain, I am in pain, and we both allow us both to be in pain? Is this pain less than loving each other again? All I wish for is the opportunity to work things out, but I guess in her eyes I am not worth the effort. I have asked her like 2 or 3 times for this so much wished opportunity, but then she tells me all kind of nasty things, like she will never come back, she does not love me anymore, etc. Jake, she is angry. Allow her to be angry. Tell her it is OK for her to be angry. This will help her lose her anger.


Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000

S1

Her stating that she will 'never come back' and doesn't 'love you anymore' is not necessarily nasty. Hard to swallow, yes, but it sounds like she's simply stating how she feels, and the truth. If she says she won't come back, she has no intention right now of coming back, and she's trying to get that through to you because you keep asking her. Perhaps she said these things in a nasty tone of voice, but it's not really nasty for someone to share their feelings, even if you don't like those feelings. That's a typical abuser reaction- abusers have a hard time dealing with their partners feelings that make them feel insecure or bad, and then they blame their partners for them feeling that way and act as if their partners said that simply to hurt them, instead of to try to convey how they are feeling. -SatokoGirl


Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000

S1

SatokoGirl:

I understand what you mean. Thank you for your post. May I ask you a question? When she tells me that she will never come back home and that she does not love me anymore, would it mean that it is what she is feeling right now due to her hurt, anger and unhappiness. YES! I have hear that so many woman will say things like that but they do not really mean it.


Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000

S1

Jake- That's a good point. When people are hurting, or angry, they say things that they don't really mean sometimes. Yes. I'm sure you have too... It's impossible to tell, however, so if you want to do the courteous thing, I'd recommend trying NOT to take her comments as a personal attack, but as a statement of her feelings, and leave her alone with those feelings until if/when she lets you know that she's not so angry anymore. :) This may not happen - she may truly not want to be with you anymore - or she may be very angry and isn't ready to be with you anymore, but either way you have to accept her feelings and let her be. Good luck! -SatokoGirl :)


Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

Hi you all, it's Jake Again.

I am rereading, all the posts again and again. I yes, I must say that most of them are making more sense, so I have some comments here.

Most of the badly treated women make comments based on their own experiences, which are pretty different from my own experiences. I have identified some of the posts with my own experiences, but there are some posts that have nothing to do with my marriage. I am accepting people the way they are, and been understanding, so it is fine with me some of the unrelated posts, it does not longer bothers me. I choose not to let it bothers me.

I have to agree that I came quite strong to Dr. Irene about her phylosophy of accepting or leaving. My point here is about marriage and commitment. I think relationships other than marriage may use that phylosophy, but when people marry, the commit to each other. My wife justified divorce because we were not married in God, just legally married, but she does not understand she committed to me, and so did I to her, for good and for WORST. To me, commitment is the will of working things out, NO MATTER WHAT. We, people, can have all the arguments you want about the last statement, and there might be exceptions to the rule, but my wife and I are normal people with normal problems, and very capable of working things out. But the "normal" concept fades aways when people start advicing her that we do not have a normal relationship because I am a terrible person, and there is nothing she can do.

I would clasify marriages in 3 different sectors: (1) Those who have such a huge problems like hitting and physical threats, (2) Those who have no problems what so ever and (3) Those who have problems which takes will and desire from both partners to resolve things out.

Now, which of the 3 type of marriages do you thinks is normal? I would say with no doubt in my mind it is type (3). Type (2) is the desire type of marriage, but it is very uncommon. In my family we are 6 brothers and sisters, and guess what? 5 of us are having type (3) marriages and only a brother of mine have type (2) marriage (at least that what they show). Out of those 5 marriages, 4 are still together, at least for now, and the only reason they are together is because of commitment. In my case, commitment is not longer the case from my wife, at least for now. Will she realize what love and commitment are? Maybe she will on time, maybe it will be too late for me. She broke a promise, then I am not longer holding that promise either, which means I am free to have my eyes openned for a new relationship. I hope am making sense here, and some comments from you people will be very much appreciated.

I would agree that Dr. Irene is not pro divorce, and I may have missunderstood her before my first post, but I would like to hear more about love and commitment here. I know controlling and anger management is a serious problem, but isn't it true that we all (normal people, most of us) have those problems too. At least I know that my wife and I have those problems. So my point here is that no matter what, you must work on controlling and anger management on yourself, and any new relationship will bring problems to our lifes and what keep us together are love and commitment. Without love and commintment, people are going to be always jumping from one relationship to another, and getting more hurt at oneself, and third parties like children.

I now see things more clearly, my wife and I have been both controlling and had anger management problem. I have been controlling since I have tried several ways to get things my way, and most of those ways were not good ways, and I see that what is the problem of controlling, because controlling is not wrong or bad by itself but because of the consequences of hurting that it brings.

For instance, my wife is a messy person, who leave the bathroom in such an incredibly mess, and I do not know why. Is she lazy? Doesn't she cares that there are other people in the house too? I do not know, but I know that she has recognized that is a problem and she has been better on that, but why did she stop? Maybe because she is becoming more lazy, or she is reacting to something I may have done. I do not know, but I stopped talking about it. She was definetely controlling because, knowing her behaviour is bad and hurting me, she kept on doing it. I just kept quiet about it, but let hurt build inside of me (anger).

My attitute and hers were both wrong. What should I have done? Well obvously, I should have tried to controll the situation, but without hurting anyone. I should have talked to her, remind her but in a loving way. Maybe I should have negociated with her. Anyway, I should have done something about it, so we both were happy.

But you know what, people? I quitted, I stopped doing anything about it. Even tried to kid myself that it does not bother me. But it did, and it always will. It is me, that is the way I am: No matter what I say or I do, having a messy bathroom bothers me. I did not want to controll the situation because I have been accused so many times of been controlling that I just did not want to have a bad behaviour from my wife to be turn back at me, i.e., becuase of her bad behaviour, I will be accused of been controlling. I was in a no win situation.

But now I see things more clear, I was in a win/win situation, but I did not know better. I should have tried to remind her about her behaviour in a loving way, maybe I should have joked about it (while laughing, she may see the problem). Maybe I should have been more patiant at her, reminding her as often as needed but with maybe some days or weeks between them, ie. not everytime. I should have acknowledge when she had made any changes on that. Congratulating her for the changes, or maybe giving her a little present, saying thank you. I also should know that eventhough changes has been made by her, there will be times when the bathroom will be messy again. And then I should wait to see if the pattern continues, and if so, I should do the samething over again as I should have done in the first place, ie, remind her in a loving way over and over again, etc.

It is my responsability to help her change about a behaviour that bothers me, controlling in a loving way, not forcing, nor hurting her. I am starting to belive that controlling in such a way, with patiance awaiting for some result, without hurting anyone, is good. With this attitute, anger will not develop inside of me, nor inside of her.

So maybe I am making a point here. Accepting may not be as good as it sounds, because you may not realize that hurt (anger) is building inside of you, as I did with the bathroom issue. I know that I can not force her to change, but it is my responsability to help her change, with love, because spouses must help each other grow for the better. I am sure she does not like to leave the bathroom messy, but for some reason she does, I should have helped her change, that way she would be happier.

I am going to continue thinking about this a bit more: Controlling is not a bad behaviour as long as noone gets hurt. Accepting is dangerous since anger may build inside of onesell, and leaving is wrong becuase you are committed to a relationship for a lifetime.

How about that? Am I making some sense here? I will be looking forward for your posts.

 


Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

Hi you all, it's Jake Again.

I am rereading, all the posts again and again. I yes, I must say that most of them are making more sense, so I have some comments here.

Most of the badly treated women make comments based on their own experiences, which are pretty different from my own experiences. I have identified some of the posts with my own experiences, but there are some posts that have nothing to do with my marriage. I am accepting people the way they are, and been understanding, so it is fine with me some of the unrelated posts, it does not longer bothers me. I choose not to let it bothers me.

I have to agree that I came quite strong to Dr. Irene about her phylosophy of accepting or leaving. My point here is about marriage and commitment. I think relationships other than marriage may use that phylosophy, but when people marry, the commit to each other. My wife justified divorce because we were not married in God, just legally married, but she does not understand she committed to me, and so did I to her, for good and for WORST. To me, commitment is the will of working things out, NO MATTER WHAT. We, people, can have all the arguments you want about the last statement, and there might be exceptions to the rule, but my wife and I are normal people with normal problems, and very capable of working things out. But the "normal" concept fades aways when people start advicing her that we do not have a normal relationship because I am a terrible person, and there is nothing she can do.

I would clasify marriages in 3 different sectors: (1) Those who have such a huge problems like hitting and physical threats, (2) Those who have no problems what so ever and (3) Those who have problems which takes will and desire from both partners to resolve things out.

Now, which of the 3 type of marriages do you thinks is normal? I would say with no doubt in my mind it is type (3). Type (2) is the desire type of marriage, but it is very uncommon. In my family we are 6 brothers and sisters, and guess what? 5 of us are having type (3) marriages and only a brother of mine have type (2) marriage (at least that what they show). Out of those 5 marriages, 4 are still together, at least for now, and the only reason they are together is because of commitment. In my case, commitment is not longer the case from my wife, at least for now. Will she realize what love and commitment are? Maybe she will on time, maybe it will be too late for me. She broke a promise, then I am not longer holding that promise either, which means I am free to have my eyes openned for a new relationship. I hope am making sense here, and some comments from you people will be very much appreciated.

I would agree that Dr. Irene is not pro divorce, and I may have missunderstood her before my first post, but I would like to hear more about love and commitment here. I know controlling and anger management is a serious problem, but isn't it true that we all (normal people, most of us) have those problems too. At least I know that my wife and I have those problems. So my point here is that no matter what, you must work on controlling and anger management on yourself, and any new relationship will bring problems to our lifes and what keep us together are love and commitment. Without love and commintment, people are going to be always jumping from one relationship to another, and getting more hurt at oneself, and third parties like children.

I now see things more clearly, my wife and I have been both controlling and had anger management problem. I have been controlling since I have tried several ways to get things my way, and most of those ways were not good ways, and I see that what is the problem of controlling, because controlling is not wrong or bad by itself but because of the consequences of hurting that it brings.

For instance, my wife is a messy person, who leave the bathroom in such an incredibly mess, and I do not know why. Is she lazy? Doesn't she cares that there are other people in the house too? I do not know, but I know that she has recognized that is a problem and she has been better on that, but why did she stop? Maybe because she is becoming more lazy, or she is reacting to something I may have done. I do not know, but I stopped talking about it. She was definetely controlling because, knowing her behaviour is bad and hurting me, she kept on doing it. I just kept quiet about it, but let hurt build inside of me (anger).

My attitute and hers were both wrong. What should I have done? Well obvously, I should have tried to controll the situation, but without hurting anyone. I should have talked to her, remind her about it but in a loving way. Maybe I should have negociated with her. Anyway, I should have done something about it, so we both were happy.

But you know what, people? I quitted, I stopped doing anything about it. Even tried to kid myself that it does not bother me. But it did, and it always will. It is me, that is the way I am: No matter what I say or I do, having a messy bathroom bothers me. I did not want to controll the situation because I have been accused so many times of been controlling that I just did not want to have a bad behaviour from my wife to be turn back at me, i.e., becuase of her bad behaviour, I will be accused of been controlling. I was in a no win situation.

But now I see things more clear, I was in a win/win situation, but I did not know better. I should have tried to remind her about her behaviour in a loving way, maybe I should have joked about it (while laughing, she may see the problem). Maybe I should have been more patiant at her, reminding her as often as needed but with maybe some days or weeks between them, ie. not everytime. I should have acknowledge when she had made any changes on that. Congratulating her for the changes, or maybe giving her a little present, saying thank you. I also should know that eventhough changes has been made by her, there will be times when the bathroom will be messy again. And then I should wait to see if the pattern continues, and if so, I should do the samething over again as I should have done in the first place, ie, remind her in a loving way over and over again, etc.

It is my responsability to help her change about a behaviour that bothers me, controlling in a loving way, not forcing, nor hurting her. I am starting to belive that controlling in such a way, with patiance awaiting for some result, without hurting anyone, is good. With this attitute, anger will not develop inside of me, nor inside of her.

So maybe I am making a point here. Accepting may not be as good as it sounds, because you may not realize that hurt (anger) is building inside of you, as I did with the bathroom issue. I know that I can not force her to change, but it is my responsability to help her change, with love, because spouses must help each other grow for the better. I am sure she does not like to leave the bathroom messy, but for some reason she does, I should have helped her change, that way she would be happier.

I am going to continue thinking about this a bit more: Controlling is not a bad behaviour as long as noone gets hurt. Accepting is dangerous since anger may build inside of onesell, and leaving is wrong becuase you are committed to a relationship for a lifetime.

How about that? Am I making some sense here? I will be looking forward for your posts.

 


Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

Hi you all, it's Jake Again.

I am rereading, all the posts again and again. I yes, I must say that most of them are making more sense, so I have some comments here.

Most of the badly treated women make comments based on their own experiences, which are pretty different from my own experiences. I have identified some of the posts with my own experiences, but there are some posts that have nothing to do with my marriage. I am accepting people the way they are, and been understanding, so it is fine with me some of the unrelated posts, it does not longer bothers me. I choose not to let it bothers me.

I have to agree that I came quite strong to Dr. Irene about her phylosophy of accepting or leaving. My point here is about marriage and commitment. I think relationships other than marriage may use that phylosophy, but when people marry, the commit to each other. My wife justified divorce because we were not married in God, just legally married, but she does not understand she committed to me, and so did I to her, for good and for WORST. To me, commitment is the will of working things out, NO MATTER WHAT. We, people, can have all the arguments you want about the last statement, and there might be exceptions to the rule, but my wife and I are normal people with normal problems, and very capable of working things out. But the "normal" concept fades aways when people start advicing her that we do not have a normal relationship because I am a terrible person, and there is nothing she can do.

I would clasify marriages in 3 different sectors: (1) Those who have such a huge problems like hitting and physical threats, (2) Those who have no problems what so ever and (3) Those who have problems which takes will and desire from both partners to resolve things out.

Now, which of the 3 type of marriages do you thinks is normal? I would say with no doubt in my mind it is type (3). Type (2) is the desire type of marriage, but it is very uncommon. In my family we are 6 brothers and sisters, and guess what? 5 of us are having type (3) marriages and only a brother of mine have type (2) marriage (at least that what they show). Out of those 5 marriages, 4 are still together, at least for now, and the only reason they are together is because of commitment. In my case, commitment is not longer the case from my wife, at least for now. Will she realize what love and commitment are? Maybe she will on time, maybe it will be too late for me. She broke a promise, then I am not longer holding that promise either, which means I am free to have my eyes openned for a new relationship. I hope am making sense here, and some comments from you people will be very much appreciated.

I would agree that Dr. Irene is not pro divorce, and I may have missunderstood her before my first post, but I would like to hear more about love and commitment here. I know controlling and anger management is a serious problem, but isn't it true that we all (normal people, most of us) have those problems too. At least I know that my wife and I have those problems. So my point here is that no matter what, you must work on controlling and anger management on yourself, and any new relationship will bring problems to our lifes and what keep us together are love and commitment. Without love and commintment, people are going to be always jumping from one relationship to another, and getting more hurt at oneself, and third parties like children.

I now see things more clearly, my wife and I have been both controlling and had anger management problem. I have been controlling since I have tried several ways to get things my way, and most of those ways were not good ways, and I see that what is the problem of controlling, because controlling is not wrong or bad by itself but because of the consequences of hurting that it brings.

For instance, my wife is a messy person, who leave the bathroom in such an incredibly mess, and I do not know why. Is she lazy? Doesn't she cares that there are other people in the house too? I do not know, but I know that she has recognized that is a problem and she has been better on that, but why did she stop? Maybe because she is becoming more lazy, or she is reacting to something I may have done. I do not know, but I stopped talking about it. She was definetely controlling because, knowing her behaviour is bad and hurting me, she kept on doing it. I just kept quiet about it, but let hurt build inside of me (anger).

My attitute and hers were both wrong. What should I have done? Well obvously, I should have tried to controll the situation, but without hurting anyone. I should have talked to her, remind her about it but in a loving way. Maybe I should have negociated with her. Anyway, I should have done something about it, so we both were happy.

But you know what, people? I quitted, I stopped doing anything about it. Even tried to kid myself that it does not bother me. But it did, and it always will. It is me, that is the way I am: No matter what I say or I do, having a messy bathroom bothers me. I did not want to controll the situation because I have been accused so many times of been controlling that I just did not want to have a bad behaviour from my wife to be turn back at me, i.e., becuase of her bad behaviour, I will be accused of been controlling. I was in a no win situation.

But now I see things more clear, I was in a win/win situation, but I did not know better. I should have tried to remind her about her behaviour in a loving way, maybe I should have joked about it (while laughing, she may see the problem). Maybe I should have been more patiant at her, reminding her as often as needed but with maybe some days or weeks between them, ie. not everytime. I should have acknowledge when she had made any changes on that. Congratulating her for the changes, or maybe giving her a little present, saying thank you. I also should know that eventhough changes has been made by her, there will be times when the bathroom will be messy again. And then I should wait to see if the pattern continues, and if so, I should do the samething over again as I should have done in the first place, ie, remind her in a loving way over and over again, etc.

It is my responsability to help her change about a behaviour that bothers me, controlling in a loving way, not forcing, nor hurting her. I am starting to belive that controlling in such a way, with patiance awaiting for some result, without hurting anyone, is good. With this attitute, anger will not develop inside of me, nor inside of her.

So maybe I am making a point here. Accepting may not be as good as it sounds, because you may not realize that hurt (anger) is building inside of you, as I did with the bathroom issue. I know that I can not force her to change, but it is my responsability to help her change, with love, because spouses must help each other grow for the better. I am sure she does not like to leave the bathroom messy, but for some reason she does, I should have helped her change, that way she would be happier.

I am going to continue thinking about this a bit more: Controlling is not a bad behaviour as long as noone gets hurt. Accepting is dangerous since anger may build inside of oneself, and leaving is wrong becuase you are committed to a relationship for a lifetime.

How about that? Am I making some sense here? I will be looking forward for your posts.

 


Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

I would like to point out that the bathroom issue is an example to illustrate what kind of problem my wife and I were having. Something so little or so meaningless is not the primary reason my wife and I are separated and toward divorce. It is the so many small things that has been building up in our life, things that were never resolved in a win/win solution, becuase of mainly communication problem.

Jake.


Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

Hi, Jake! Yes, I understand that it's not just the messy bathroom, that you chose that for an example of many little things. Your wife might say the same thing, it is all of those little things added together that drove her away.

I don't agree that it is your responsibility to change her behavior in a loving way. You are still looking for better ways to control her! You even used the word CONTROL. You still have a very strong need for control, and that is not healthy.

When you listed the (3) types of marriages, you mentioned physical abuse, but left out verbal abuse, as if it doesn't even count as abuse. That it's only a communication problem. Also, you are arguing that the problems in your relationship are normal. No, your problems are not normal. You are denying. Nice to hear from you again.


Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

When I talk about normal problems, I am talking about most of the problems marriages have. I know that if I knew better, I would do things differently, however, who goes to a marriage knowing. I guess no body, at least in their 20's.

Moreover, I am still not sure my last post was clear enough. I am not describing a behaviour of controlling just to get my way. I am trying to describe a behaviour about changing bad behaviour, like the bathroom issue. How many people would say that leaving a bathroom messy is a bad behaviour? I belive, there will be quite a lot. So there are issues where you must try to change an spouse behaviour for better, but without hurting anyone.

Now, there are other issues where they might not be self evident. In such issues, I am trying to suggest to be more patiant, negotiating with your spouse about maybe giving up certain things to get other things. Would that be controlling? I do not think so. I do not know two people who would agree on everything, that is not possible. Therefore, there is got to be a way to make a point of what you belive is right or wrong. What do you do when your spouse does not agree with you? One of them is going to get away by not changing at all, so there is got to be a way so that no one gets hurt. Negotiating might be a way. But controlling where one gets its way, by giving up other things is not bad, in fact it is good. Maybe controlling should not be used in this paragraph, but I am not using the phrase controll abuse, since abuse is where hurting is introduced. If your behaviour is not hurting anyone, whether is controll or not, is not a bad behaviour, on the other hand, controll abuse is where a partner get hurt, and that is what should be avoid.


Date: Friday, May 26, 2000

S1

Maybe we're using the word control differently. I agree with what you just said about negotiating.

The messy bathroom example: I guess the question is how each of us defines messy. It seems that controlling abusers focus on housework a lot. I know you are using the bathroom as just one example.


Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to help her for my feelings at the time was ,she is a drug addict ,true but she is also a human being and surely she can not be that evil inside as her emotions unlashed on me many times involving physical abuse and also mental abuse with the verbal threats. Time went on and being a person that was sure i would not give i found myself fully engulfed with her life and somewhere i lost mine. She was the type that would say ,I Love you honey ,let me have 100.00 for groceries and i will be right back when i get done shopping,my stupid response was,well i have to show her i can trust her before i can establish a reward for her being good,so i would give her the money and then the night would soon fall and the silence be chilling for deep inside i knew she wouldnt be home. I would set by the phone worrying if she had been injured or someting terrible for now night had passed and day one had passed and now a week had passed ,,and then finally she called...Being so hurt and empty inside i would ask her what happend like an idiot and she would tell me she is at some guys house and would be home soon.I cant belive this,i let this happen. I continued this for a period of ten years and just now after numreous threats,violent acts and attempts to stab me with butcher knives i finally see that i have to let her go. I hate abuse,I hate aruguing and yet that is all that has been in my life for ten years.To make this long story short she is now screaming at two oclock in the morning for me to get out,she has pulled knives on me over four times just this week and she has insured me that if the police come she has done talked to them and they will arrest me for verbal abuse now. So after ten years looks like i have my trailor almost paid for and she is going to get it if if leave from what i am told. If i stay i have a good possiblitly of being made to leave by the police. Laws do not protect men,they may look the same but when a small petite little lady calls a police and says the man if abusing her they dont ask questions nor even want to here the mans side. The man is thrown out. She is probably right in the fact taht if i even try to block her knife from penetrating my skin ,i will be at fault as if i live ,i will surely go to jail then. I admit now that we both are victims from verbal abuse for i had to at least start screaming back to have some recourse of a outlet for my fear and anxities she has caused. The bottom line to this story is that you can become co-dependent on someone eles misory and you can get so involved that you totally lose yourself. There is no help for someone who continues to abuse themselves wether its chemically or otherwise. I am just waiting now for me to find a palce to move too. I have no where to go ,ashame that there isnt a mans abuse center..but there is plenty for the women though. Just another wish i guess. Dont never believe that because you love someone that it will make them be any different than what they are and if they are someone whom you dont like at first ,get out then,dont waste years of your life like i have. I am now 50,have no time to buy a new home,have no money saved because of her,and will become a lonely old man only because i gave my life to someone else.Only trust no one,never marry someone you dont know,and never give your life to anyone except Christ. Things will stay simple for you then,I only wish i could have seen ahead.

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel


Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to help her for my feelings at the time was ,she is a drug addict ,true but she is also a human being and surely she can not be that evil inside as her emotions unlashed on me many times involving physical abuse and also mental abuse with the verbal threats. Time went on and being a person that was sure i would not give i found myself fully engulfed with her life and somewhere i lost mine. She was the type that would say ,I Love you honey ,let me have 100.00 for groceries and i will be right back when i get done shopping,my stupid response was,well i have to show her i can trust her before i can establish a reward for her being good,so i would give her the money and then the night would soon fall and the silence be chilling for deep inside i knew she wouldnt be home. I would set by the phone worrying if she had been injured or someting terrible for now night had passed and day one had passed and now a week had passed ,,and then finally she called...Being so hurt and empty inside i would ask her what happend like an idiot and she would tell me she is at some guys house and would be home soon.I cant belive this,i let this happen. I continued this for a period of ten years and just now after numreous threats,violent acts and attempts to stab me with butcher knives i finally see that i have to let her go. I hate abuse,I hate aruguing and yet that is all that has been in my life for ten years.To make this long story short she is now screaming at two oclock in the morning for me to get out,she has pulled knives on me over four times just this week and she has insured me that if the police come she has done talked to them and they will arrest me for verbal abuse now. So after ten years looks like i have my trailor almost paid for and she is going to get it if if leave from what i am told. If i stay i have a good possiblitly of being made to leave by the police. Laws do not protect men,they may look the same but when a small petite little lady calls a police and says the man if abusing her they dont ask questions nor even want to here the mans side. The man is thrown out. She is probably right in the fact taht if i even try to block her knife from penetrating my skin ,i will be at fault as if i live ,i will surely go to jail then. I admit now that we both are victims from verbal abuse for i had to at least start screaming back to have some recourse of a outlet for my fear and anxities she has caused. The bottom line to this story is that you can become co-dependent on someone eles misory and you can get so involved that you totally lose yourself. There is no help for someone who continues to abuse themselves wether its chemically or otherwise. I am just waiting now for me to find a palce to move too. I have no where to go ,ashame that there isnt a mans abuse center..but there is plenty for the women though. Just another wish i guess. Dont never believe that because you love someone that it will make them be any different than what they are and if they are someone whom you dont like at first ,get out then,dont waste years of your life like i have. I am now 50,have no time to buy a new home,have no money saved because of her,and will become a lonely old man only because i gave my life to someone else.Only trust no one,never marry someone you dont know,and never give your life to anyone except Christ. Things will stay simple for you then,I only wish i could have seen ahead.

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel


Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to help her for my feelings at the time was ,she is a drug addict ,true but she is also a human being and surely she can not be that evil inside as her emotions unlashed on me many times involving physical abuse and also mental abuse with the verbal threats. Time went on and being a person that was sure i would not give i found myself fully engulfed with her life and somewhere i lost mine. She was the type that would say ,I Love you honey ,let me have 100.00 for groceries and i will be right back when i get done shopping,my stupid response was,well i have to show her i can trust her before i can establish a reward for her being good,so i would give her the money and then the night would soon fall and the silence be chilling for deep inside i knew she wouldnt be home. I would set by the phone worrying if she had been injured or someting terrible for now night had passed and day one had passed and now a week had passed ,,and then finally she called...Being so hurt and empty inside i would ask her what happend like an idiot and she would tell me she is at some guys house and would be home soon.I cant belive this,i let this happen. I continued this for a period of ten years and just now after numreous threats,violent acts and attempts to stab me with butcher knives i finally see that i have to let her go. I hate abuse,I hate aruguing and yet that is all that has been in my life for ten years.To make this long story short she is now screaming at two oclock in the morning for me to get out,she has pulled knives on me over four times just this week and she has insured me that if the police come she has done talked to them and they will arrest me for verbal abuse now. So after ten years looks like i have my trailor almost paid for and she is going to get it if if leave from what i am told. If i stay i have a good possiblitly of being made to leave by the police. Laws do not protect men,they may look the same but when a small petite little lady calls a police and says the man if abusing her they dont ask questions nor even want to here the mans side. The man is thrown out. She is probably right in the fact taht if i even try to block her knife from penetrating my skin ,i will be at fault as if i live ,i will surely go to jail then. I admit now that we both are victims from verbal abuse for i had to at least start screaming back to have some recourse of a outlet for my fear and anxities she has caused. The bottom line to this story is that you can become co-dependent on someone eles misory and you can get so involved that you totally lose yourself. There is no help for someone who continues to abuse themselves wether its chemically or otherwise. I am just waiting now for me to find a palce to move too. I have no where to go ,ashame that there isnt a mans abuse center..but there is plenty for the women though. Just another wish i guess. Dont never believe that because you love someone that it will make them be any different than what they are and if they are someone whom you dont like at first ,get out then,dont waste years of your life like i have. I am now 50,have no time to buy a new home,have no money saved because of her,and will become a lonely old man only because i gave my life to someone else.Only trust no one,never marry someone you dont know,and never give your life to anyone except Christ. Things will stay simple for you then,I only wish i could have seen ahead.

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel


Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to help her for my feelings at the time was ,she is a drug addict ,true but she is also a human being and surely she can not be that evil inside as her emotions unlashed on me many times involving physical abuse and also mental abuse with the verbal threats. Time went on and being a person that was sure i would not give i found myself fully engulfed with her life and somewhere i lost mine. She was the type that would say ,I Love you honey ,let me have 100.00 for groceries and i will be right back when i get done shopping,my stupid response was,well i have to show her i can trust her before i can establish a reward for her being good,so i would give her the money and then the night would soon fall and the silence be chilling for deep inside i knew she wouldnt be home. I would set by the phone worrying if she had been injured or someting terrible for now night had passed and day one had passed and now a week had passed ,,and then finally she called...Being so hurt and empty inside i would ask her what happend like an idiot and she would tell me she is at some guys house and would be home soon.I cant belive this,i let this happen. I continued this for a period of ten years and just now after numreous threats,violent acts and attempts to stab me with butcher knives i finally see that i have to let her go. I hate abuse,I hate aruguing and yet that is all that has been in my life for ten years.To make this long story short she is now screaming at two oclock in the morning for me to get out,she has pulled knives on me over four times just this week and she has insured me that if the police come she has done talked to them and they will arrest me for verbal abuse now. So after ten years looks like i have my trailor almost paid for and she is going to get it if if leave from what i am told. If i stay i have a good possiblitly of being made to leave by the police. Laws do not protect men,they may look the same but when a small petite little lady calls a police and says the man if abusing her they dont ask questions nor even want to here the mans side. The man is thrown out. She is probably right in the fact taht if i even try to block her knife from penetrating my skin ,i will be at fault as if i live ,i will surely go to jail then. I admit now that we both are victims from verbal abuse for i had to at least start screaming back to have some recourse of a outlet for my fear and anxities she has caused. The bottom line to this story is that you can become co-dependent on someone eles misory and you can get so involved that you totally lose yourself. There is no help for someone who continues to abuse themselves wether its chemically or otherwise. I am just waiting now for me to find a palce to move too. I have no where to go ,ashame that there isnt a mans abuse center..but there is plenty for the women though. Just another wish i guess. Dont never believe that because you love someone that it will make them be any different than what they are and if they are someone whom you dont like at first ,get out then,dont waste years of your life like i have. I am now 50,have no time to buy a new home,have no money saved because of her,and will become a lonely old man only because i gave my life to someone else.Only trust no one,never marry someone you dont know,and never give your life to anyone except Christ. Things will stay simple for you then,I only wish i could have seen ahead.

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel

B1:
Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to hel


Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

Hello: I have been married for ten years to a lady whom i once loved.First mistake was to marry her on such a short engagement,only 3 months and i had only known her a total of 5 months.I found out after we were married she was addicted to pain pills and thought i could deal with it. I was really wrong. I thought that if i showed her enough love she would surely take the love and affection over the pills. wrong again. So my delima started with her lies and my finiacial destruction. I wanted to help her for my feelings at the time was ,she is a drug addict ,true but she is also a human being and surely she can not be that evil inside as her emotions unlashed on me many times involving physical abuse and also mental abuse with the verbal threats. Time went on and being a person that was sure i would not give i found myself fully engulfed with her life and somewhere i lost mine. She was the type that would say ,I Love you honey ,let me have 100.00 for groceries and i will be right back when i get done shopping,my stupid response was,well i have to show her i can trust her before i can establish a reward for her being good,so i would give her the money and then the night would soon fall and the silence be chilling for deep inside i knew she wouldnt be home. I would set by the phone worrying if she had been injured or someting terrible for now night had passed and day one had passed and now a week had passed ,,and then finally she called...Being so hurt and empty inside i would ask her what happend like an idiot and she would tell me she is at some guys house and would be home soon.I cant belive this,i let this happen. I continued this for a period of ten years and just now after numreous threats,violent acts and attempts to stab me with butcher knives i finally see that i have to let her go. I hate abuse,I hate aruguing and yet that is all that has been in my life for ten years.To make this long story short she is now screaming at two oclock in the morning for me to get out,she has pulled knives on me over four times just this week and she has insured me that if the police come she has done talked to them and they will arrest me for verbal abuse now. So after ten years looks like i have my trailor almost paid for and she is going to get it if if leave from what i am told. If i stay i have a good possiblitly of being made to leave by the police. Laws do not protect men,they may look the same but when a small petite little lady calls a police and says the man if abusing her they dont ask questions nor even want to here the mans side. The man is thrown out. She is probably right in the fact taht if i even try to block her knife from penetrating my skin ,i will be at fault as if i live ,i will surely go to jail then. I admit now that we both are victims from verbal abuse for i had to at least start screaming back to have some recourse of a outlet for my fear and anxities she has caused. The bottom line to this story is that you can become co-dependent on someone eles misory and you can get so involved that you totally lose yourself. There is no help for someone who continues to abuse themselves wether its chemically or otherwise. I am just waiting now for me to find a palce to move too. I have no where to go ,ashame that there isnt a mans abuse center..but there is plenty for the women though. Just another wish i guess. Dont never believe that because you love someone that it will make them be any different than what they are and if they are someone whom you dont like at first ,get out then,dont waste years of your life like i have. I am now 50,have no time to buy a new home,have no money saved because of her,and will become a lonely old man only because i gave my life to someone else.Only trust no one,never marry someone you dont know,and never give your life to anyone except Christ. Things will stay simple for you then,I only wish i could have seen ahead.


Date: Sunday, June 04, 2000

S1

I find it honorable that Jake has such strong convictions about his marriage vows;however, if one lesson Im learning is that each person is who they are and it is up to us to decide if we want to be with someone who doesnt not have the same convictions as us. If you demand for someone to conform to your beliefs you are acting in a controlling matter; however, if you can express your convictions and she can freely make the choice to consider it that is not controlling. Then should she decide to continue to go out,its now up to you to decide if that is what is good for you. Now this is all easier said then done when you love someone so deeply. As far as God is concern. He wants everyone to love themselves. Are you loving yourelf?

Good luck!!!!!


Date: Tuesday, June 06, 2000

S1

dear jake; the only way to healing for you and your wife is to each look at yourselves. When a marriage is not working it needs to be looked by both. Work on yourself and you'll see changes in your spouse good or bad you'll know what to do. Only work on yourselve.


Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000

S1

Hi! I wrote you some time ago. Today is my wedding anniversary 31 years!!!!! Verbal abuse (some physical, none in past 10 yrs); did everything humanly possible to "fix" things. We went to 3 counselors- 2 pastors; and I went to a battered woman's support group for awhile. Talked myself blue in the face,wrote reams of stuff to my husband. He will be getting divorce papers next week....scared to death; but am trying to be my own best friend and advocate; wanted to leave 20 years ago; didn't have the courage or strength---took me this long! A tiny part of me wants to give it one more try; but I have spent 31 years giving it another try---the other shoe always dropss, and then I think (driving myself nutz), well maybe this time he WILL change; there has been some change; not phhsically violent anymore, and more aware of stuff hesays; but I think: how much more of my life does he deserve....he said "I think I am over the hump now"---meaning, I GUESS, that most of the abuse is over, and he is/has been learning how to not be verbally abusive anymore. I guess I am just worn out emotionally, and afraid to "give it one more try" Thanks for listening. God Bless You, and could you respond to this posting at: carleton@oakland.edu (P.S. With what I know about verbal abuse (also grew up in that, quite a little horror story in itself), I consider it my responsibility to help others; I found the book that told me everything I ever needed to know about verbal abuse: The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans.......I have been talking to women about this book and abuse, for the past 6 years; also joined a support group on-line; one woman I was communicating with, went on Oprah! Again, thanks a gazillion for listening; am kind of tired, now. Hugs and appreciation for anything you can offer. Is it possible to get your "snail mail" address: I have something I would like to send (all part of my escape from this 31 years).....Alice


Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000

S1

I am a little curious as to why you want your wife back. Is there anything you like about her? Do you enjoy her? Let her be who she is and enjoy her. If you can't do that then you don't love her and you don't need to be in her life.


Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000

S1

I am a little curious as to why you want your wife back. Is there anything you like about her? Do you enjoy her? Let her be who she is and enjoy her. If you can't do that then you don't love her and you don't need to be in her life.


Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000

S1

Hi! This is Jake again.

I have been asked by the last post why do I want my wife back. I have to say that at this point I do not know, and I am affraid the only answer is that I want to live with my children. If that is the only reason, I guess that for their own sake, I should not be back with my wife.

I have good memories about our life together, and I know I still love the woman she was once before, when I met her, but I am not liking the woman she has become.

Three month ago, she was about to do something so morally wrong against me, I found out somehow a week ago. I confronted her, telling her that I knew that what she was going to do was a possibility, however, she was not that kind of a person. I was right, since she didn't do it, but she was very close. She felt so guilty about it, that she told me she was going to call me to ask me if there was a possibility for us. I did not tell her anything, mainly because she said that she "was" going to call me to ask me, but she never did, besides, what she was going to do is so painfull for me, that I can not longer stop thinking about it. I am seeing certain pattern about her that she is reminding me about her mother. She is becoming her mother, and her mother is the last person I would like to live with.

I am very confused about what I want now, and everyday there are less reasons for me for wanting to be with my wife. I am feeling sorry for my children, that I am going to keep seeking for spiritual strength and guideness. Only God can show me the way, and I am asking him to give me some wisdom.

I would hate myself if the consequences of the wrong desicion will have a deep impact on my kids. They are at no fault, and If they are going to pay for this, I rather be the one who pay, instead of them.


Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000

S1

DR. IRENE I BELIEVE YOU TO BE SO WRONG ON JAKE'S LIFE. YOU SAY HE IS A ABUSIVE HUSBAND HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND THEY HAVE TWO CHILDREN AND YOU THINK IT IS PERFECTLY FINE FOR HIS WIFE TO BE HANGING OUT WITH FRIENDS SEVERAL TIMES A WEEK INSTEAD OF BEING HOME BEING A MOTHER AND WIFE.


Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000

S1

I believe we, my wife and I, have been both abusive, in terms of we both have had anger inside which was not properly managed. We both are frustrated that we have not been able to communicate our feelings, so we both have said things against each other. She knows how to hurt me, and she does it well. So do I.

I am understanding where we have been wrong, and I can see why the only two people I have spoken to about this support me and why the people who listen to my wife support her. We both are at fault and we both are right.

Jake.


Date: Monday, June 12, 2000

S1

 


Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000

S1

 


Date: Wednesday, June 14, 2000

S1

Hey Jake, This is Tim again, I have not wrote in a while. I feel I need to catch up on some of the previous posts to kind of catch up on what's been going on with you. However, it's 3:15 a.m. and I have to get to bed. I at least wanted to say "Hey bud" and I hope you are coping well. My situation is getting better little by little. My wife actually said she loved me today, and she said it first. I thought I would never here those words again. She is even talking about wanting kids again. 2 months ago, she felt she did not even love or like me, let alone have kids with me or even get a house with me. There is always hope Jake. Tell me...Have you been reading any of the recommended books? I'm glad Dan has been helping you too. Tim


Date: Sunday, June 25, 2000

S1

Dr. Irene is very negative and sarcastic. Are you or were you ever happily married?? Interesting Question. You sound vengeful. Divorce and Single Parenting is a ridiculous cure for problems that could be solved with therapy. What happened to committment, loyalty and responsibility to children. You might try a more positive approach in your therapy over a keyboard. Aren't marriage counselors supposed to meet with both people.


Date: Thursday, June 29, 2000

S1

stick with it Jake , look at the other side of the coin whenever things are rough, maybe some compassion will emerge


Date: Sunday, July 09, 2000

S1

Hi my name is Misti and I have been married for almost 2 years just after my husband and I were married he decided that he was going to build a house in the country by his parents 45 minutes from mine, when I explained to him that I would rather be in the middle of our parents he responded by saying that " this is where I am building a house and if you want to live here then that is fine" it took 1entire year to convince him that for emergency reasons my name needs to be on the check book(after my daughter was sent to have a x-ray to check for pneumonia and I had to hunt down my mother for money) I have also found out that my husband smokes pot and takes pain pills and since I won't let our daughter go anywhere with him because of his habits and the habits of his friends he says that I am the one that has to make all of the decisions about our daughter(who is 18 months old)I have been to Counseling and found that I felt better for a month or two and thought that I was going to be able to keep my self up by saying to myself(it is not me, he would still act this way if I was mary, Kim, or susie) it only worked for a couple of months I can't keep myself from feeling or being affected mentally from the things that he says and does like when our daughter was born my cousin said "misti she looks just like you did when you were a baby" and Bryan replied No! the only things that she has of your is your cooch. When ever he looks at other people he judges them on appearance or the way there acting and picks out all of there flaws, all the time I see him making like a grossed out face or rolling his eyes and it makes me feel very self- conscious because I can just feel him doing it to me or anybody that is around except for his family he is very proud of them and need I say that every 5 of his brothers and his 1 sister all smoke pot too. I am at a loss when I confronted him about the pot smoking and pills that I found in a bag in my daughters car seat, he said that he only does it every once in a while and if anybody has a problem it's his sister, he drives better after he smokes it, "if I had a problem I wouldn't go to work and I definitely wouldn't be building a house". I am so scared for all of us and I don't know the best way to handle our situation. I have clung to my daughter since the day she was born I have bought lots of parenting books my favorite one is How To the Parent God Wants Me To Be. I have very high morals and values for myself and want nothing more than to pass them on to my daughter, I know that the most important job that I have as a parent is to teach her about God and after that I want to teach her to love everyone and be light hearted and caring for others but i'm afraid that with my husband being so critical of other people she is going to learn his behavior and she will too be critical of herself because of his won't except anything but perfect attitude I feel like my insides are racing all of the time and I am trying to get all of this stuff perfect but I can't be proud becuase he is the only one that deserves the glory because he is building us a 3500 sq. ft. house. He can't understand why I only come out there 1 or 2 a month to see the progress, he has never ask me my opinion about anything in that house, he has never cared about anything that would make me feel happy infact he asks as if he is put off by me showing his videos of my daughter and I having a good time riding bumber boats or at the zoo, he even told me that he does not want me to take Morgan anywhere anymore without him and that in my free time I should take her to the house he is building. I told him that I thought that he was being selfish by saying that, there are nails stairs holes everywhere for morgan to fall into, there is no where for her to take a nap or to eat her lunch and by the time I get done watching 5-6 other children during the day and getting laundry, meals, naps, clean from meals, make beds, just the essentials for the day it's 5p.m and the babysitting kids go home and I am expected to cook another meal and clean up again then Morgan and I usually take a bath and I spend some quality time with her reading, playing dress up, tickeling, hide and seek, singing and dancing, and in the middle of play time I usually have to wake Bryan up at 7:30p for work and by the time I have been yelled at about 3 times going in there with my 27 pound daughter on my hip and he yells"I can't get right up, damn"then I go back in until 5 times later he is gets up cussing because I didn't get him up and now he is late to work. Some of the things that just seem to stick into my head that my husband has said to me to hurt me is: the comment about our daughter only having my cooch was the worst, he says things like my thinking is all screwed up, my thoughts and feeling are mixed up, I am construction stupid that's why he hasn't ask me what I wanted(is this not 1/2 my house am I not contributing eneough by babysitting and raising our daughter with him seeing her maybe 1-2 hours a day there have been many that he hasn't seen her at all. He told me that if I wanted to make some decisions about the house that I needed to come and shed some blood and sweat. It also bothers me very much when he hasn't been around to see everything that I have done in the day and he walks in the door and immediately starts by grabing morgan and then looking at me like he is home to claim his possession and then say to me why is her diaper wet, why is her face dirty(koolaid stains or ketchup)have you washed my jeans, you spent so many dollars at the grocery store and there isn't a damn thing in here, you need to go through these bills, you need to take care of my fishing liscence ticket, I'm going fishing in september but it's no place for kids and I found a brochure that said there was a heated pool and he rented a cabin, and he is going fishing but I can't take Morgan anywhere except to the house he is building. It is not my fault that he has this house to build I wanted him to by a small started home between the two inlaws but what I wanted was not even negotiated, and even though I know that it is not my fault that he made this decision there is still a large part of me that feels guilty like i am the one doing something wrong or I havn't done eneough. Bryan told me that I couldn't put wallpaper up in the house and he tells me all the time where the furniture is going to be and which bedroom is Morgan's and where her place house is going to be out front by the lake and if I wanted it in back(away from the lake)that I had to build it. What hurts me the most in this mess is that even though I have clung to Morgan since she was born I don't feel like I have bonded with or shared and gotten to know her the way that I have always dreamed of with my child because even though I was holding rocking her or kissing her and telling her that I loved her, I have been too anxious, contemplating all of these things in my mind over and over again and trying to figure out why I was accomplicing as much as I was during the day but still feeling as if I were not pleasing anyone and trying to figure out exactly what my role was suppose to be and what I was doing wrong. I still don't completely understand if at the end of the day when eneough but not all of the house work has been done teeth have been brushed if it is ok for me to sit down with my daughter and enjoy fingure painting(with bathtube bubble fingure paint)and when my husband comes in he aspects for me to get up and let him sit with her and tell her all the things she is doing wrong such as not keeping the SOAP BUBBLES on the paper and when I reply bryan there only bubbles they will wash off why don't you let her relax and have fun being creative. He comes up with all kinds of ways that I am not being a good mother such as I am going to make her a brat, I despise name calling and I have never met a 18month old or a toddler of any age that deserves to be called any negative name and when I told him of those feeling he came back with I am trying to control everything I am always looking over his shoulder when he is with Morgan and that when I get into the house I am just going to want to try and control it anyway. I do not think I am interested in controlling anything but I am interested in finding my place even if it's decorating, cooking, I enjoy doing these things and I too need something to be proud of. I am sooooooooooo worried about Morgan I have tried very hard to keep the arguing away from her usually with not much luck though if I go to my room and lock the door he yells open the door or i'm going to fight you for custody and tell them that your dad was a nut case(he suffered from depression)I don't know what would be the best for Morgan, for me to disappoint God and get a divorce which would mean that Bryan would be along with her to drive drugged up and risk the chance of his being able to treat her with the same type of respect that he gives to me, have a broken family, or do I stay married continue to be pushed into the dark closet(I kind of feel like I am loosing myself and everything that is important to me does not matter) I need to know someone can see a side to this situation that I do not. I have asked my family and friends lots of times recently "what is the matter with me?" All I want is my family Bryan, Morgan, and I to work together, love, and respect each other as friends do not enemies. I need my role to be respected what I want for Morgan is only the best and at 18 months old she should be able to wonder with curiosity and excitement and held back only when danger is an issue. I believe in positive reinforcement, respect should be between parent and child not only demanded by the parent to get them to act out of fear. What I want for Morgan is a life to feel free to be and have fun discovering the things that she will be passionate about and I think to accomplish that you have to let a person do there own decision making( give them choices), use disipline only when necessary(not because you are having a bad day)make sure they know that they are an important person in the family unit by including them and not disregarded because of there height they are part of the family so they so be involved. The most important thing is to be sure they know who much you love and cherrish them. I know how important it is for me to love my husband even before our child, she needs a good relationship example for when she seeks a relationship she will look for the quality of a person that her father was or think it is ok for women to be treated with such disrespect. What is the right decision to make? Is there anything that I can do to save my marriage? If he waves up a condom one more time while laying in bed and says come on it's your wifely doody, one more time I swear I will throw up the next time, and he says I have no sex drive I enjoy sex by myself more than I do with him. I know that no family and that no body is perfect but what is the norm am I searching for something that isn't out there? All I want is a someone to converse with be friends with, make decisions with, enjoy like with, all of this with the understanding that everybody has a bad day or pms but my gosh this is a bit more than I am equipped to handle atleast on an everyday basis. maybe that's why I tend to kick him out every 3-6 months in the last 10 years of our dating/marriage to get a break but why do I keep going back for more of this?


Date: Wednesday, July 26, 2000

S1

Jake sounds like someone I know... He started out that way. The verbal "abuse" Jake does not see is only the beggining. It'll get MORE and MORE controlling. When her bevaviour changes,again, so will his. I pray to God that Jake has alot of self control. But even with his carefully worded letter, I do not believe that he does.Anger management is the first step, side by side with counselling. When he has started to heal, if it's not too late, then marriage counselling. If they both believe in God then it should be a carefully sought out Pastor. Make sure BOTH agree with the pastor's views and beliefs. Inquire about his family life as well. If not it won't work. Just from reading the letter, I am very nervous , especially because Jake will not see that he has a problem. I would rather be beaten and threwn like a ragdoll, again, than to put up with verbal abuse. Verbal abuse continues to damage long after the abuser is gone. Everthing he said rang bells through me again.My husband swore he'd never hurt me...he loved me.I couldn't please him. Even when I did everything he "asked".The way Jake worded things and kept resaying and rephrasing things, exactly like my husband.I was taken to a shelter in the end. With a concusion , that I am still recovering from.Five months later. It started similarily to Jake....Please take heed, everyone has a different opinion.Do not go to others for advice or to prove you're right. Listen to your heart, it will tell you what is right and what is wrong.Find a solution without imposing your views, opinions and thoughts on others. Especially your wife. Find a solution, to do that go to the problem. Remember what and why you fell in love, and why you got married. Hold on to that. Treat others as you want to be treated. Love yourself. Try romane and bring little things back into the relationship. Walk away when you're angry, try again when you're not.Not until then.Try doing things together: walks,reading,biking,board games,cards,anything. Avoid confrontation..."be the better man" Show love. Good luck,and God Bless! Robin Murray 

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