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4/14 Interactive Board: Codependent Partners

3/23 Interactive Board: He's Changing... I'm Not...

3/1 Interactive Board: D/s Lifestyle

1/14 Interactive Board: My Purrrfect Husband

12/12 Interactive Board: What if He Could Have Changed?

10/23 Interactive Board: Quandary Revisited

8/24 Interactive Board: Quandary! What's Going On?

7/20: Dr. Irene on cognitive behavior therapy and mindfulness

6/12 Interactive Board: Unintentional Abuse

11/7 Interactive Board: Is This Abusive?

12/29 Interactive Board: There Goes the Wife...

11/4 Interactive Board: A New Me!

10/8 Interactive Board: Seeming Impossibility

9/8 Interactive Board: My Ex MisTreats Our Son

5/1 Interactive Board: I feel Dead - Towards Him

4/26 Interactive Board: Why is This So Hard?

4/19 Interactive Board: I Lost My Love...

4/7 Interactive Board: Too Guilty!

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Comments for D/s Lifestyle


Comments:  D/s?

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Sunday, April 01, 2007

What do you want for your son? He's 13 - would you want this guy you are dating to be a male role model for him? what kind of conversations will this guy have with your son if your son asks him curiosity questions about sex? Dr. Irene is spot on that this guy is into a BDSM lifestyle - he will only be so friendly as long as he thinks he will eventually have your full cooperation in this lifestyle - is this what you want for the next couple of decades - a submissive role where you are told to never be the initiator? You are always to be available for him but he won't be available for you? Does that work for you? The hardest thing for me to understand about this lifestyle is that I don't see how you can respect and love a woman and still want to have her act as a possession to be ordered around as a slave. The two don't mix. I hope you drop this guy and work on finding you, give your self time to get over your last relationship. Give yourself time to love yourself and find out who you truly are, what your boundaries are with ANY other person, and give yourself time to practice those boundaries. Take care of you. Right now I believe this relationship gives you someone else to "take care of" so that you don't have to look within yourself. Giving up yourself to take care of someone who has values opposite yours is not worth losing yourself in the process.

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Sunday, April 01, 2007

I never knew about this kind of lifestyle until after your response. I had heard of S&M, of course, but not all the other aspects of the D/s. After reading one of the websites on the subject (http://www.submissiveloving.com/ it doesn't appear that they are ALL extremists. There are varying degrees. I can see why I might have sought this relationship out since I have been trying to live a life more like what the Bible describes. I am seeking to live the role of a woman based on how the Bible indicates a woman should be with a man. Clearly women are praised in the Bible for being submissive and even calling their husbands "master" or "lord" (1Peter 3:6). This is probably why I find it less shocking, but I have no interest in "dark side" of it - in non-monogomous relationships. Ultimately I want a relationship that leads to marriage. So far the only behaviour that has prompted me to wonder if it is abusive is the sexual aspect of it - not because he ever hurts me, but because it is so very different from anything I have known and wasn't sure what it meant. As far as my son is concerned, I would like to see him learn to lead and take charge with his future wife, but I want him to be loving and kind at the same time. To me that is what a husband should be, and the Bible indicates this, too. Like I said, Ven has continually shown an interest in making me happy, too, in being kind and supportive. There are aspects about him that are bewildering to me, like his way of initiating sex since most men seem to take it any way they can get it. He wants a more "lady-like" way (i.e. not aggressive). You imply that his behavior will change for the worse given time, but I hesitate to "throw him away" based on future actions that have not taken place. I understand that this is a pre-emptive way of preventing hurt/abuse, but I think I might never get involved in a relationship again if I was always worried about that. Though I don't want some weird S&M relationship, I do desire a man that will take up the role described in the Bible for them. (1Cor 7, Eph 5). Perhaps dominants tend to take this up more readily?

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Sunday, April 01, 2007

BTW, the comment above (citing the website) is me, Cat. (Didn't think about signing my name!) I am referring to Dr. Irene's comments about D/s when I commented that I had never heard about this before. Hope that helps. -Cat

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Sunday, April 01, 2007

I can understand you wanting a relationship based on what you believe the Bible says about marriage and the man leading the home (I'd encourage you to go on the forum and search through the Christian questions - there are differing opinions out there that are worth taking a look at). I believe the Bible states clearly that a marriage relationship is one of equality and that it is the world that has put the female in the submissive role (i.e. no real rights to speak of). Jesus and Paul taught the men in their culture to TEACH women (i.e. quit subjugating their wives/women to subservient lives just because society says they aren't allowed to learn) and to respect women. Mary and Martha - Martha chose the traditional role -be submissive and cook/clean-make sure the men were comfortable and taken care of - Mary chose to sit and learn and Jesus affirmed this choice of hers and told Martha that Mary made the better choice. I don't see in your letter that this guy respects women, nor knows how to love them. Taking care of a woman, IMHO, does not mean that the woman gives up her own autonomy to become what the man wants. You are right that there are differing degrees of the D lifestyle - you may find that one level is most comfortable for you and that you are perfectly fine with living in that way. I think I would urge you to still look within, discover how you came to be who you are, what influenced you to become how you are and is there any beliefs/attitudes within you that you'd like to change. It is an interesting process -looking back over my life story and remembering key moments that influenced how I react to the world and people taught me quite a bit about myself. One that I believed I should always help others BEFORE me, everytime I put myself and my dreams out there something would stop them or attempt to stop them. But truth told, I stopped my own dreams by not fighting for them and setting healthy emotional boundaries with people around me. That's just one of the things I learned about my patterns of behavior and why they are the way they are. It can be tough to change but it's doable. And I feel healthier and happier than I have in years. One question - in raising the issue that there are levels of this lifestyle are you trying to justify in your mind that his submissive sex games are lower level and therefore tolerable? And one more question - How does this guy support you to help you reach your dreams and goals in all areas of life - your dreams, your ideal sexual life, your goals for the next part of your life, your financial dreams, raising your son? Is this guy going to attempt to control all aspects of your life because from your post he's clearly trying to wine and dine you until you are firmly under his control. I'm seeing DANGER!DANGER! written all over this guy's method of interaction with you. Why leave one abusive guy and hook up with another that wants to 'act out' abuse? -K

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Monday, April 02, 2007

You have just recently gotten out of 15 years of an abusive marriage. Do you really want another one so soon? You say that when you told him that belittling or yelling at you made you want to leave, he stopped doing this and basically changed tactics, but do you really think that this is a good thing? I mean, yes, it is good that he stopped...but if he were truly non-abusive would you even have had to have that discussion? A non-abusive person wouldn't dream of yelling and belittling you in the first place, so you wouldn't have to tell them that this makes you want to leave. You say that he loves you most when you completely submit to him and obey him. You mention not being 'allowed' to express sexual aggression and that he wants to be able to have sex with you any time and in any way -he- wants, that he is most aroused by thinking of you being helpless and then making you pregnant. How does this fit with the reality of having a teenage son living in the home and even with the possibility that you might actually become pregnant? Where do your needs or wants come into play with this type of relationship? Can you not see that this sets you up for a life time of sexual abuse...and then to be tossed aside when you can no longer be 'there' whenever and however he wants? He is not saying "I love you because you are strong and intelligent and witty etc", he is saying "I love you because you do what I want, when I want and how I want." So, as soon as you stop doing what he wants, when he wants and how he wants, then his love goes away. And, even when you -do- all of this...it is likely his love will go away anyway because then he is unlikely to only want -you- but will want another -you-...another woman to conquor. To me, this guy sounds very scary indeed. He is pushing for an 'all or nothing' type situation with the move thing...everything has to be and will have to be -his- way. Are you really ready for another abusive relationship? Like, I know you probably feel lonely and alone and such but honestly during the first few years of getting out of your marriage...thats the time to be doing things for you, learning about you and enjoying the strength and courage it took to finally leave your ex-husband. This guy has picked up on your neediness and on the one hand he promises to rescue from that...but on the other hand he promises to abuse you in ways that I really wonder if you honestly want.

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Monday, April 02, 2007

Cat! When he 'submits' to changing, he is merely laying the groundwork for what he wants from YOU. He's ~showing~ you how he wants YOU to behave. This is NOT 'giving' on his part. Not at all. Anything he 'willingly' gives you has an ulterior motive attached. If you want a mutual, respectful, loving, equal relationship, sweetie, this AIN'T it. Vampires must be 'invited' by their victims. Ooooo, he's a vampire alright. My advice to you is to wear a necklace of garlic and start sporting a crucifix. End this NOW before it goes any further. That man has NOTHING to offer you OR your son. Tallulah

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Monday, April 02, 2007

Hi Cat, I read your response about wanting to lead a more bibical role in a future marriage. I won't get into religion but I will speak to the lure of the submissive sexual role. I'm a very independent strong woman - and I choose a sexually submissive role because it is what I ENJOY. My CHOICE. But I would never be a submissive with a partner who was into domination or bondage (except as an occasional fantasy play with a trusted lover). I would quickly be totally turned off if I was "instructed" on the "proper" way to enjoy myself with a partner. I don't want to be TOLD, but I don't mind being SHOWN. There is a huge difference. I also find no thrill in being intimidated into acts that I'm uncomfortable with. My philosophy is that you treat me right, I'll treat you right - as a person and as a sexual partner. And none of that has the aura of abuse about it, as some of things you described. Even without Dr. Irene's comments - I would have pegged this guy as she did - somebody that has found a new "innocent" to mold to his liking. Cat, you owe it to YOURSELF to first find out what you want for yourself and what you want in a partner. This man is too experienced and too manipulative to be the one to introduce you to an alternate lifestyle. You are in way over your head already. If you continue "giving a little more", you may well be in dangerous waters by the time you decide you want out. I guess a good way to put it would be: Don't do anything that you may feel guilty about later. Best wishes on pursuing a course of self-knowledge that will lead you to the lifestyle of YOUR choice. HandyGram

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Monday, April 02, 2007

I suppose the question is, "Is any form of domination abuse?" and, "How does this idea relate back to the Bible?" I am keenly interested in what someone would have to say to me about this by using the Bible to show me. Realize that you have gotten a limited view of this relationship since I was restricted to 700 words in order to submit it. I had to get to the point and be blunt. You saw the worst of him in very raw way. If you told the worst things about your own significant others with no room to set up the context, wouldn't they all be judged as harshly? So the question remains - is what he has done "abuse"? Not, "Is he going to abuse me?" or "Do you agree with this method of interacting as a man an woman?" And additionally, is there no room for mistakes when two people are learning about each other? Is it wrong for me to communicate with him that what he does hurts me? Is his response of changing the behavior so that I can be happy wrong? If some level of domination makes him happy, is it wrong to me to provide him with behavior that makes him happy back? Isn't all this what we do anyway in a relationship over time - we compromise and change behavior so that both can be happy? We learn what the persons boundaries are so that we don't violate them. He doesn't like me being sexually aggressive - is that so different from a woman not wanting a man to just come up and put his hand in some very personal place on her? Surely there is a compromise in this that allows me to receive physical intimacy from him without offending his sensibilities. Though I found myself confused and hurt by the way he acted, does that mean I should just throw my hands up and walk away? So, instead of assuming you know all about Ven's intentions just from 700 words, please focus on his actions. Is it abuse for him to ask for my submission? Don't most men, deep down, want this from women? I am not saying that it is okay for men to forget thier responsibilities in loving and cherishing the woman, but isn't submission at the heart of what the Bible lays out as God's view of marriage? We submit to our husbands as the church submits to Christ. And as Christians, isn't that submission expected to be absolute - ultimately - once we get past our self-centeredness? So you might be wondering - why is she defending him? Wasn't she the one that was complaining in the first place? Yes, I did because I wanted to get some perspective on the situation. Does that mean I don't care about this relationship or Ven, such that I will just meekly listen and obey what you have to say? And likewise, I don't meekly agree with Ven whenever he crosses a boundary. If you could talk to him you would see that he has to convince me that the way he sees things makes sense for BOTH of us. He has had to work very hard this past year in our relationship, sometimes because of his own blunders, which he is very fast to admit and ask forgiveness for, and sometimes because this IS bad timing in my life to have met him. He was the one that encouraged me to talk to a professional about my concerns - has encouraged me to do it for several months now. So, please, stop judging the man and just look at the behavior. And thank you all for taking the time to write. I may not agree, but that doesn't mean I don't value what you have to say. Cat

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Monday, April 02, 2007

You state that you approached him to kiss and caress him and he rebuffed you "corrected you" - do you truly believed you did something that needed to be "corrected"? What about your first marriage made you deem your first husband abusive? somewhere in there you must have decided that things he was doing was abusive in some way - emotional, verbal, physical, financial, etc. If you've already determined some ways in which people can be labeled abusive, what is it about this relationship that has you second guessing whether Ven's actions are abusive? I don't think we can answer that for you - if your willing to live with that lifestyle then you will determine for yourself that it's not abusive. My take on reading your story is that it is hugely emotionally abusive because I don't agree with the fundamentalist Christian view that women are to be so submissive as to lose the right to there own expression - that a man can define "lady-like". Aren't you going to feel oppressed if he's asking you to give up initiating in this area because it doesn't fall into his definition of "lady-like"? From your recent post, I hear you saying that you BOTH need to reach agreement as to treatment of each other -that's a good thing. But what I see in print is that he's making a pronouncement and declaring you must agree with his way - is he capable of compromising where you do get to approach him and initiate sex? That was your belief before you met him - but it is up to you when and how you want to change your beliefs. What exactly are you asking from those of us who respond? Clearly you have doubts and posted a question, now your asking us to make a judgement call on whether his actions are abusive- now I see you frustrated because we are saying his actions are abusive. We can say, in our experience we would classify his actions as major red flags waving in the breeze stating ABUSE AHEAD if not already happening. Your asking for Biblical clarification of submission and we really can't do that either - according to the view I hear you leaning toward your divorce would be seen as terrible and dating another man afterwards a sin - there are some views that say you must stay single after a divorce. Obviously you aren't complying with these beliefs - what is it about the submission belief that is attracting you and making you feel like you must follow Ven's definition of submission? Some guys/gals are really good at making illogic sound logical. This guy sounds like a major con artist - but if you think there is more to your story you can tell it in subsequent posts here - as you can't tell all in 700 words, we can't see a bigger picture in 700 words.

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Monday, April 02, 2007

"he would correct the way I was kissing or rebuke me for touching him – that it wasn’t lady-like" If he doesn't like you kissing or touching him, that is his personal boundary. To implicate that this behavior is 'unlady-like' is to put a unilateral definition on what is and isn't lady like based on -his- opinion. The bible does not say that only the wife's body belongs to the husband, infact it says that the husband should honour the wifes body as if it were -his- body. It -also- says that the husband belongs to the wife, that the two submit themselves to the others desires...it does not say that because the wife wishes to initiate sex that the wife is unlady-like. "He had made me feel like I was just another one in a long list of girls." " After I told him that belittling or yelling at me just made me want leave him, he stopped doing it. " Is not belittling and yelling at you not abusive? "I told him that when he was kind and considerate toward me, it made me want to do things his way, so he started to consistently talk to me like that." Should one have to explain that being kind and considerate is necessary in a relationship? In your 700 words or less, you have described a relationship that is based on control. Not on self-control but on other control. In order for him to want this relationship, he must be in control of you. You have rationalized this and minimized this and attempted to use the bible to validate this. The bible tells both the husband and the wife to submit themselves to eathother, it does not imply that the husband be in complete control of the wife. He has indicated the potential to be abusive and again you rationalize and minimize this by saying that he has stopped yelling and belittling you inorder to obtain your obedience, your willingness to relinquish control to him. He has, however shown the potential to yell and belittle you. You have indicated a number of things that seem to point towards a relationship that is based on control and dominance of you. To those of us who have written in, we have suggested that these are red flags and you chose to dismiss these with rationalization and minimization. If what you are looking for is a relationship based on control, where he defines what is and isn't lady-like, where he basically defines -you-, then that is your choice. We can only remark on what we see given what you have written. If our perception is wrong because of what you have written is wrong, then so be it. I would suggest that one must decide what level of abuse is ok and acceptable and what isn't. And I would caution because abuse is intertwined with a need to control, inwhich all power is given to one partner and none allowed for the other partner. If you are happy to give up your own personal power for this guy, then again, that is your decision to make. But, based on what you have written here, this is what he wants and nothing else will be acceptable to him. You may call this whatever you want it, I call it a controlling relationship with a huge liklihood to move towards extreme emotional abuse. Again, this is not my relationship and hence, not my decision to make.

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Monday, April 02, 2007

Dear Cat, Aside from the S&M and the speed with which this relationship got so intense (which are both huge red flags), why be with anyone who doesn't respect how you feel about this and who isn't concerned about your comfort and pleasure too? That signals a serious imbalance from the outset, to me. There are lots and lots of men and there is lots and lots of time. I say take time with yourself, your family, friends, co-workers, to find out who you are and what you really want in your heart. Have faith that once you know what you want and what is right for your life, you will find him.

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Tuesday, April 03, 2007

Cat, I posted above saying S&M- sorry about that! I didn't even understand the difference! ooooops. My heart goes out to you- this situation with your boyfriend must be very tough. Expect respect and consideration, always.

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Tuesday, April 03, 2007

Okay, I need to reply to a few posts here, now. Thank you all for trying hard to understand my situation and giving me your honest and concerned feedback. So, I definitely agree that the Bible states the husband's body belongs to the wife, too, and don't get me wrong - it is not that he doesn't want to have sex when I am interested, just that he gets "turned off" when I don't approach him in a feminine way. I have decided that there is nothing wrong with this and it is my immaturity that allowed my ego to be bruised by it. He has every right to be treated in an way that is appealing to him with regard to physical intimacy. Also, I didn't state how much of the stuff above I liked or didn't like. Some of it scares me a little, but so did the whole idea of sex when I was still a virgin. The unknown is always a little scary. I think that fear now has a tendency to trigger my "is this abuse?" button after my marriage. But he honestly has never pushed a sexual issue with me or tried to make me feel guilty for not wanting it. I admit that there are very appealing aspects for me in having him take charge and I have found I enjoy the eroticism that comes with hearing him tell me what he likes and wants while we make love. I am the type of person that likes having instruction during sex. I have often asked him to tell me so that I can please him better. I know that ever since WWII it has not been popular for a woman to take on any submissive role in our American society. But I do not find submission offensive nor distasteful. I would gladly submit to a man that is worthy of such a responsibility. Admittedly, they are very, very few and far between. As for divorce and not every remarrying - unless my ex dies - this website has actually relieved me of much of that turmoil. "PeachPapoos" posted some very helpful scripture links regarding this specific topic in the Catbox Forums in the Christian Yak section near the bottom. http://www.divorcehope.com/christiandivorceandremarriage.htm This site focuses on 1Cor7. They point out that "unmarried" does not refer only to those that have "never" been married since later in the passage Paul shifts from talking about the "unmarried" to "virgins" (which I think we can all agree would be included in "never married" if that is all that "unmarried" referred to). I am satisfied that God has room for divorced people to remarry so they can avoid sin and enjoy life. The Christian life is about service and there is no great call to service than that which comes with marriage. I do agree that sex outside of marriage is one I have no defense for. I admit that I believe it is wrong and my only private vindication is that I am faithful to this one man and I will abide to a monogamous relationship with the belief that it has the potential to become a marriage. If I didn't think it had this potential, I would never give my body to it. Though, in a way, it seems a little strange to me that God emphasizes withholding the body so much when (in my very limited understanding of how He made us) it is our hearts and minds that are most profoundly affected and altered by relationships …Unless you get some horrible disease... As for my marriage, my ex would denigrate me for being a Christian, kick our dog, threaten our son, break lamps, yell, take my personal items and deface them with profanity, leave and not come back until very late at night, tell me I didn't deserve to succeed in life, and he's an alcoholic on anti-depressant meds. The sex with my ex was "vanilla", with a lot of pornography to make up for his lack of imagination. So, after vanilla sex, Ven's flavor is exciting but sometimes leaves me gasping for my breath. So, as far as I can see from the posts, there really isn't any abuse at all here, only fears that there could be someday - and that is true in any relationship. ~Cat

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Wednesday, April 04, 2007

Cat, It's terrible what you experienced in your first marriage. I agree that only giving yourself 3 months before beginning a new relationship is not near enough time. Please consider what it would cost you to wait or put this relationship on pause. I argue that it is much more costly to continue on in this relationship. You've had to compromise your beliefs and have sex outside of marriage. This is not "being true to the Self" as Dr. Irene stressed is key to your emotional health. Please try to stay open minded about the responses that have been given to you. The motive behind them is to help you.

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Wednesday, April 04, 2007

Dear Cat, I would strongly encourage you to get into counseling because of the abuse you endured from your former husband. It takes a long time to undo the damage. I know that when I first escaped from the abuser I was with for 18 years, I didn't know what I didn't know, and I've been in counseling for the past three years now and learned a lot. I'm not saying it takes three years of counseling to heal totally. I'm still not healed totally - I can tell by the anger I still have towards the ex. I don't know if that will ever go away. But even within a few months of counseling I know I was starting to change, starting to feel better about myself than I ever imagined possible, and seeing more and more clearly exactly WHAT was wrong with the past relationship which strengthened me on how to avoid allowing any maltreatment into my life, and that's not just from a partner but from ANYone. Fifteen years is a long part of your life to spend in the wrong direction. Surely you felt it wasn't right, as evidenced by your final decision to leave. There may be more things you can discover to strengthen yourself and bring out more of your wonderful potential. Coming to talk on this site is good, but a lot of us are also seekers of solutions so can't best help you as a trained couselor can. If money is a problem, there are free counselors all over the place - check with your local women's shelter. I've never had to pay for counseling and the benefits I've received have been priceless. Blessings, PeachPapoose PS: I was surprised to see my name mentioned in one of your posts above, and glad something I posted was of help.

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Wednesday, April 04, 2007

Cat~ Can you please provide more information about your Ven. When did you meet one another online? How long was the online relationship before you both met in person? Do you have all information about where he lives, phone number, address, ID's (for yourself) His employment, His education, His background? Does he live with someone else? Has he ever been married? What are his views on religion and your faith? DOes he live alone and for how long & does he support himself? What type of communication transpired during your online relationship? Was there any Fantasy writing or cybersex? Did he compliment you? Is his only desire in a relationship with you to move in with you? Have you been to his hometown, his house, had sex with him in his house? What was the point you were getting at about him desiring to live with you right away? Please provide some background details about his family- Is he close with his family, friends, online friends? I am very sorry for your suffering during your last marriage & this man may be a wolf in sheeps clothing. Addiction to online games/sex is not love. Infatuation & love addiction is not love. Please read about passive aggression, narcissistic personality and codependants. I will write more when I have more information. You are being manipulated and you are experiencing abuse. Your gut told you so & no matter how much you are infatuated with him and try to explain it as a learning experience...you will experience the loss of self - esteem the longer you are with someone like this.

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Wednesday, April 04, 2007

I do plan to get counseling. I have been in counseling off and on during my marriage. Ironically, my ex has been in counseling with a psychiatrist for several years now and I am beginning to think he just goes to get more Paxil to mix with his martinis! I plan to go back to a woman that helped me greatly about 5 years ago. Though she specializes in marriage counseling, I bet she knows others that deal with my issues. As far as telling you about Ven, I would feel that I would be crossing a line if I said too much, like I would be abusing his trust. However, I can ask him to read all this and post his own thoughts. Would this be acceptable? ~Cat  Cat, anything is acceptable on your board.

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Wednesday, April 04, 2007

Cat, Please, please listen to your initial instinct. If you didn't suspect you were headed for another abusive relationship, you likely wouldn't have written to Dr. Irene in the first place. If you haven't already read it, there is a book called "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker that addresses how we often talk ourselves out of things that we instinctively know to be true. We get a gut feeling, and then rationalize our way into not trusting our feelings. Didn't you know - instinctively - that the things your husband were doing were wrong? Yet, at the beginning, you probably rationalized it away. This is the same thing. Your first sentence to Dr. Irene was "I am concerned about my current relationship." Listen to yourself Cat. You ARE concerned about your relationship. You are concerned because you have been through it before and your instincts are sounding an alarm. They are telling you that something is happening that down deep you are not really comfortable with . Why change who you are to fit into a man's life. You already tried that and it didn't work. Listen to what your gut is telling you. Find yourself, and then and find someone who wants to be with that person. My prayers are with you.

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

Cat~ You don't need to share the information with (us)... I just wondered if you knew all the details about him up-front & why he only wishes to move in with you rather than you visa versa...? By all means keep personal info to yourself~ Usually people that LOVE BOMB & wish to move in right away to your area only are hiding something. Hopefully he isn't still at home with his parents. I concur ~ Please read The Gift of Fear. You may also wish to post in the Forums & discuss specific questions or feelings.

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

I have contacted a group called the International Assoc. of Biblical Counselors that my previous Christian counselor suggested. I am hopeful that this will continue to help me. Also, there are some things that you guys say that also trigger "red flags" for me, based on my previous Christian counseling. One of those is the idea of fear. I have been taught (and the Bible is rather clear on the subject) that fear has no place in Christian way of living. Fear signifies a lack of faith. Also, the idea of seeking "self" and focusing on my "self-esteem" is akin to becoming puffed up with pride, which I was also taught to be wrong. A Christ-centered life is incompatible with a self-centered life. To encourage me to embrace these ways of living would be just as un-true to myself as what you think Ven is doing. As for the depth of my knowledge about Ven and his personal situation, I know all the information that you asked about. I am satisfied that he is not trying to lead a double life. I have invited Ven to read the postings here and comment as he sees fit. I hope you find it useful. ~ Cat PS Thank you Peachpapoos, for your postings in the forums :)

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

Thought I might just add a little more. The idea I have of a godly marriage is that the man is in charge, when a final decision needs to be made. He is the “king” of the home, but not that he should be the character out of “Sleeping with the Enemy”. Ven understands his place as the head and leader, but he is not unreasonable. A marriage is a collaboration, but there needs to be a leader that directs the family’s course so that divisions do not arise and undermine the family unit. I would only submit if I was certain that what lay at his heart is the edification of the whole family. That will only become evident if he moves to where I am. Though I do have submissive characteristics, I am not a doormat. I never let my ex treat me that way, either. When he did those things, I let him know that it was unacceptable behavior. As far as moving in with me, he understands that this is an uncrossable boundary. I will only live with a man that is my husband. Nor will he be able to spend the night with me anymore once I am living with my son, since this will be a bad example to him. Once my son is back with me, my life will be much more separate from Ven than he has experienced so far, because it must be that way if he is not my husband. Plus, you should realize that if Ven doesn’t end up moving closer to me at some point in the near future, most of these concerns are moot. I am convinced that if there is not enough commitment for a move, we will drift apart after my son is back with me. Then the relationship will come to a natural conclusion. The point is, I do have hard and fast boundaries. I am not a self-destructive person, which is why I finally left my marriage. It was clear that situation was only going to get worse and worse. I am not willing to sacrifice my future or my son to have a man with me. Ven understands and respects this in me. ~Cat

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

Thought I might just add a little more. The idea I have of a godly marriage is that the man is in charge, when a final decision needs to be made. He is the “king” of the home, but not that he should be the character out of “Sleeping with the Enemy”. Ven understands his place as the head and leader, but he is not unreasonable. A marriage is a collaboration, but there needs to be a leader that directs the family’s course so that divisions do not arise and undermine the family unit. I would only submit if I was certain that what lay at his heart is the edification of the whole family. That will only become evident if he moves to where I am. Though I do have submissive characteristics, I am not a doormat. I never let my ex treat me that way, either. When he did those things, I let him know that it was unacceptable behavior. As far as moving in with me, he understands that this is an uncrossable boundary. I will only live with a man that is my husband. Nor will he be able to spend the night with me anymore once I am living with my son, since this will be a bad example to him. Once my son is back with me, my life will be much more separate from Ven than he has experienced so far, because it must be that way if he is not my husband. Plus, you should realize that if Ven doesn’t end up moving closer to me at some point in the near future, most of these concerns are moot. I am convinced that if there is not enough commitment for a move, we will drift apart after my son is back with me. Then the relationship will come to a natural conclusion. The point is, I do have hard and fast boundaries. I am not a self-destructive person, which is why I finally left my marriage. It was clear that situation was only going to get worse and worse. I am not willing to sacrifice my future or my son to have a man with me. Ven understands and respects this in me. ~Cat

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

Cat, Would you walk down a dark alley in a neighborhood that has a high crime rate just because there is no place for fear in the christian way of living? No, because you would have your instincts (sudden fear) screaming at you to go a different way. Some fear is good - a GIFT from God. Those instincts we have - that little feeling in the pit of our stomachs - the feeling that made you write to Dr. Irene in the first place - the feeling that would occur as you approach the dark alley - are all survival instincts given to us from God. Perhaps, His voice inside us, protecting us. Faith and fear are not always opposites. Fear of how the future will turn out, fear that we can't accomplish something, fear that we won't survive a tragedy; God wants us to let go of those types fears, put our lives in His hands and trust that He is always guiding us. Fear of immediate danger or the instinct that something is not right are God talking to us and guiding us. Those types of inner gut feelings are the reasons we should have faith that He is with us always. Has it ever occured to you that His guidance is precisely the reason you wrote here in the first place. Maybe you were meant to hear these thing from everyone who posted. I hope HE will continue to guide you and you WILL listen to his voice inside you (your instincts). Good Luck and God bless you.

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

Let's say you are submissive by nature, that it IS "who you are" and that you long for someone to Take the lead, keep your best interests at heart, cherish you, encourage you, bring out the best in you, and in exchange, you freely 'give' yourself to him completely. Sound enticing so far? I'm not going to judge that in you or say you are defective. I am going to say that three months of online chat while simultaneously recovering from a broken marriage is the BIGGEST red flag of all. I didn't hit 'rock bottom' from the failed marriage until 5 months after I left. And the rebuilding has taken nearly two years, with more left to go. I think the 'gift' of submission (D/s OR christian) is when two strong, healthy, Self aware individuals come together with mutual understanding from a place of knowing. You didn't give yourself that time, and you do not KNOW this man well enough to trust him in either "lead" role. I say back off, regroup, learn about you as a single individual before you couple yourself off into oblivion. You're worth that journey. ¢¾

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

Cat: I only breezed thru some of the comments. First of all is this man a christian? You state in some fashion that your faith is important to you! Does the bible say NOT to be become unequally yoked? If he claims he is a faith follower I guestion his conviction! The last thing this man would wish for you to do is have SEX! His comments were hurtful, and uncalled for as well! Is that an attitude of a faith following person? God stated that we are both to be submissive, and NO that doesn't mean some man is KING of his castle! LOL! Look at those verses, and study them. According to the bible the man has MORE responsibilities than the women! He is to SERVE her by loving her! He is to give of himself, and sacifice for her! You have a very different VIEW of submission than what the bible speaks of! Its different that the Webster's dictionary definition! Men are NOT to dominate their doormat women! Quite frankly if Ven was all that great you NEVER would have told him to STOP things that you did! I mean why in heaven's name you would have to say STOP certain behaviors he knows is wrong under ANY circumstance! I bit your child even knows better! You are full of infactuation here! LOL and its rubbing off and turning into gloom! Reality slapped you during his visit, and you need to realize this NOW! In the bible (2 Peter) it mentions that Sarah called her husband Abramham "Lord" or "Master" (depends on what version of the bible you read) YES - but not in the way you are reading it! You have to take into a account the times in which these things were written! She was showing honor to her husband, because according to the bible we are honor our husbands. That is their 'love language' if you will! As little as 100 years ago spouses called each other "MRS" or "MR" as a show of respect! In biblical times called your husband "Lord" or "Master" again didn't mean the same thing as we use those words today! Times change and we learn to HONOR differently! Nowdays you call your husband MR or MASTER anything it usually means you are MAD at him! LOL! Go down ONE more verse if you will....... 1 Peter 3:7 You husbands, in like manner, live with your wives according to knowledge, giving honor to the woman, as to the weaker vessel, as being also joint heirs of the grace of life; that your prayers may not be hindered. Now I realize people have this big hissie FIT about the 'weaker vessel' part! It just means women tend to be 'weaker' phyically! NOTHING ELSE! Generally, that is true! People spend WAY to much time on that part, and never get the meat and pototoes of this verse! Which part you ask? How about "giving honor to the women" and more importantly "As being also JOINT heirs of the grace of life!" "JOINT" heirs! Most versions state "CO" Heirs. Does that indicate KING of his castle to rule the roost - be dominating and what I say GOES no matter what? Heck NO! CO or JOINT heir means like "co worker" or "co parent" - it means we are equal! What most people tend to blow OVER in this verse is the most POWERFUL part - if you treat your wife like dirt your prayers will be hindered! In other words - you make a bad relationship with your wife you will have the same type of relationship with ME! Funny how those men that love that SUBMISSION verse in the twisted degree never bring up that part of the verse huh? God will stop listening to them when they pray - their relationship with him would be rendered due to HIS behavior! LOL As a faith follower you know that is the WORSE thing that could happen! I realize alot of places PUSH this equal, but not equal since "I'M" the man stuff - they missed the spirit of what scripture says! They are actually acting as Pharcees! You remember them right? They could quote quote you chapter and verse in the bible, but had NO CLUE what the spirit or the intent of those words were! Instead of spending time with Ven, and getting online right away.....go to your bible and open it up! Alot of your lonely issues will go away, and you will find the strength to tell Ven to go and yack someone else's chain! Seriously! This man is BAD news! If he does want you ask of him - tell him to go away and maybe he WILL! Praying for you! App2

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Friday, April 06, 2007

I believe the experience of Dr. Irene and the fellow catboxers is INVALUABLE to those who question their situations or look for answers about abuse. Why?? Because like an educated person of ANY topic, they KNOW their area of "expertise", inside and out. The kitties have lived it, breathed it, cried and bled because of it. Dr. Irene IS the expert! Her years of expertise clearly state that there are big issues with respect to Ven. We don't know Ven. We have no personal relationship that could cloud our opinions...but the experience of the kitties is screaming.."RED FLAG, RED FLAG, RED FLAG!!!" or... If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...IT IS A DUCK!!!!!!!! If nothing else, remember this....JUST like we have all learned, it is almost CERTAIN that abusers will NOT stop abusing us. That is a fact. It is almost CERTAIN that a women who does not heal herself after ending an abusive relationship WILL choose another abusive partner!!! Me thinks thee doth protest too much. My opinion is given with ((( Prayers & Hugs))) Me

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Friday, April 06, 2007

First, I don't think of Ven as a D/s person. He isn't into all the crazy things that lifestyle promotes. He just has a commanding way in the bedroom - one that I have encouraged and come to enjoy more and more. Perhaps I should never have posted such intimate moments, since all my worries came only from this side of our relationship - and only then because it was so different. And please let me re-iterate that Ven has been a big part of my life for a year now. The number of times he has hurt my feelings is in the single digits. Every time he is quick to apologize and admit he is wrong. I would even go so far as to say he is repentant because when he says he won't do it again, he doesn't. The reason I am so willing to submit to Ven is because I have such a deep respect and love for him. Yes, he does try to make my love and trust in him grow, and yes, I do submit more to him as a result – not because he demands it, but because I want to! Besides – isn’t that the basis of a loving relationship – to build love and trust in each other? Why is it bad for a man to seek to deepen these things in a woman? I know I want a man that seeks to build my love and trust in him! It seems that no matter what attributes Ven may have that are truly good and even exceptional, he is now viewed as a monster because of a few comments I made previously. If I really was convinced that Ven has been abusing me, it would be different, but he has not. Abuse is where you try to destroy another human being. Submission does not equal destruction. Ven has never tried to do this. I understand this now and feel much more at peace with regard to our private lives. As for App2, let me say that you are fortunate that I can separate your message from your condescending tone and flippant attitude. You make very valid Bible references, but this doesn't cancel out the fact that women are indeed meant to submit to their husbands. Being joint heirs in Christ doesn't mean that we are not to obey God's command to be obedient and submissive. This is stated in both the Old and New Testament. The most pointed example in the Old Testament is that of Gen. 3:16: Then he (GOD) said to the woman, "You will bear children with intense pain and suffering. And though your desire will be for your husband, he will be your master." The commentary surrounding this is particularly clear. http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=3&verse=16 Are you telling me that God didn't really mean what He said? Are you calling God a liar? Or can I assume that your condescending tone is directed at God as well, since it is really HIS will that you are belittling. In any case, no one will convince me that the role of a wife is not to serve. That has been my belief ever since I received sound, Biblical, Christian counseling. Self (pride) is the hook that Satan uses to keep us in rebellion against God and His perfect will. In the New Testament, Eph 5:23 is most clear on this: For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. Head = Leader = King = ultimate authority on a decision. Any church that decides to do things that Christ doesn't agree with will have its "lamp" "snuffed out" (see the first few chapters of Revelation). That church is in rebellion against the head - Christ. Even so, a wife that is rebellious against her husband's authority cannot consider her attitude acceptable to God anymore that a man that abuses that authority over his wife is considered acceptable. I think, however, that my point is best made by Col 3:22-25: 22You slaves must obey your earthly masters in everything you do. Try to please them all the time, not just when they are watching you. Obey them willingly because of your reverent fear of the Lord. 23Work hard and cheerfully at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. 24Remember that the Lord will give you an inheritance as your reward, and the Master you are serving is Christ. 25But if you do what is wrong, you will be paid back for the wrong you have done. For God has no favorites who can get away with evil. NO, I am not saying that wives are slaves. Consider this, though, if God still expected real slaves to so completely submit to real masters, what makes you think that wives should not treat their husbands as king of the home? What makes you think that the wife's responsibility to submit and obey is in any way "watered down" in God's mind? I realize it might be watered down in yours, but that is moot with regard to what is True (according to the Bible). Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is any less true. The Christian faith is not based on equal rights, nor on the Bill of Rights – it is all about sacrificing self for the sake of serving others and thus, serving God. “That is the path of blessing.” (John 13) http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=joh+13&t=nlt&sr=0&l=en Thanks to all of you again, and I greatly appreciate those of you that tried to understand my position and honestly tried to hear everything I had to say. I have listened carefully to all of you, too. Just because I have not come to the same conclusion doesn’t mean that I didn’t listen and search. Thank you again. ~Cat

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

Dr. Irene, can you describe what a healthy "man-in-charge" relationship looks like? Can you contrast this to a D/s relationship? The overwhelming majority of the world lives by traditional man-in-charge relationships where the man is dominant and the woman is submissive. Attacking this traditional value is one of the reasons why Muslims are so angry with America. If your minority American population labels traditional relationships as deviant behavior, then it is your minority that is deviant, not the majority of the world. I know this might hurt your big American ego, but you people don't speak for the rest of us and you can't bully us into submission with your intellectual credentials or brainwash us with your feminist, male-bashing TV and movies. What is "normal" is always relative to the culture it takes place in. I can only write with regard to what works in this culture I and most of us live in.

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

Cat, In your last reply you say that his "in-charge" attitude is only in the bedroom and not in the rest of your life. In your original letter, you state that his "in-charge" attitude permeates all of your life - that is, you can't approach him in an "un-lady-like" (according to his definition) at anytime of the day. These statements are contradictory. I'm not sure why you posted - you take offense to many of our replies, given in the true spirit of help, and go on to defend Ven and justify why you are accepting his behavior. If your letter was just to start a debate on submission and the erroneous idea that this is exactly what God wants between husband and wife - this isn't the place to do that - you asked about abuse - the items you stated in your original letter raise HUGE RED FLAGS that Ven is a guy with huge control tendancies. Perhaps App2 has done research into the man/woman relationship according to God and is satisfied that the belief of woman must submit to man (obey him) is wrong. I've done studies in this area too - there is valid research out there that proves that the word submission is not used as a needed character of just the wife and the word OBEY is never used in the Bible. These are male-made characteristics. I find it harsh that you would accuse her of being condesending when your first letter paints a very different picture of what you are espousing your feelings toward Ven are now. When Adam and Eve messed up in the Garden of Eden it was a CURSE to woman that she would feel the need to serve the man -not a God-ordained ideal -a curse. Don't you think we as humans - male and female - should recognize this and try to stop living the curse, instead living as God intended - a side-by-side equal relationship with God as head of the relationship? You told us Ven was just using you for sex ("it became all about the mechanics"), that he denied YOUR sexual expression ("that's not lady-like"), that he's arrogant (after you complimenting him he said "that's par for the course"), that he uses emotional manipulation ("he pleads with me to continue the relationship"), his love is conditional ("he loves me most when I submit"), you are an object to him ("he wants sex when he wants it, where he wants it"). Your recent replies have me wondering if you did invite Ven to read this and he is now the one writing your replies because the contraditions in your words are telling me that either the person writing the original letter was truly seeking to educate herself and now can't reply herself and learn about abuse OR the person writing the original letter was trying to start a debate on sexuality and the traditionalist's view of women submitting to men as a reason to submit to abusive actions and used this letter as a springboard for their own agenda. The above isn't meant to offend - I'm trying to figure out why the original letter and your replies are so different in tone. You won't find many supportive kitties in the traditionalist's view of submission here. Surrendered Wife may be the forum you are looking for if you want support for that lifestyle. Search the Catbox Forum for Surrendered Wife and you'll see the reactions many of the Cats feel for this type of lifestyle. Abuser's embrace this lifestyle because it gives them permission to blame their abusive actions on the female's lack of submission. We truly care that you aren't caught in this type of relationship as your letter indicated that Ven was trying to control you into. If you do want this kind of relationship, go for it, it's your life, live your life to your ideals not others - if you are happy and satisfied then you won't worry about the perceived condemnation of others who don't believe your choice is healthy - if you deem it healthy for you that's all you need. -K

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

Cat, In your last reply you say that his "in-charge" attitude is only in the bedroom and not in the rest of your life. In your original letter, you state that his "in-charge" attitude permeates all of your life - that is, you can't approach him in an "un-lady-like" (according to his definition) at anytime of the day. These statements are contradictory. I'm not sure why you posted - you take offense to many of our replies, given in the true spirit of help, and go on to defend Ven and justify why you are accepting his behavior. If your letter was just to start a debate on submission and the erroneous idea that this is exactly what God wants between husband and wife - this isn't the place to do that - you asked about abuse - the items you stated in your original letter raise HUGE RED FLAGS that Ven is a guy with huge control tendancies. Perhaps App2 has done research into the man/woman relationship according to God and is satisfied that the belief of woman must submit to man (obey him) is wrong. I've done studies in this area too - there is valid research out there that proves that the word submission is not used as a needed character of just the wife and the word OBEY is never used in the Bible. These are male-made characteristics. I find it harsh that you would accuse her of being condesending when your first letter paints a very different picture of what you are espousing your feelings toward Ven are now. When Adam and Eve messed up in the Garden of Eden it was a CURSE to woman that she would feel the need to serve the man -not a God-ordained ideal -a curse. Don't you think we as humans - male and female - should recognize this and try to stop living the curse, instead living as God intended - a side-by-side equal relationship with God as head of the relationship? You told us Ven was just using you for sex ("it became all about the mechanics"), that he denied YOUR sexual expression ("that's not lady-like"), that he's arrogant (after you complimenting him he said "that's par for the course"), that he uses emotional manipulation ("he pleads with me to continue the relationship"), his love is conditional ("he loves me most when I submit"), you are an object to him ("he wants sex when he wants it, where he wants it"). Your recent replies have me wondering if you did invite Ven to read this and he is now the one writing your replies because the contraditions in your words are telling me that either the person writing the original letter was truly seeking to educate herself and now can't reply herself and learn about abuse OR the person writing the original letter was trying to start a debate on sexuality and the traditionalist's view of women submitting to men as a reason to submit to abusive actions and used this letter as a springboard for their own agenda. The above isn't meant to offend - I'm trying to figure out why the original letter and your replies are so different in tone. You won't find many supportive kitties in the traditionalist's view of submission here. Surrendered Wife may be the forum you are looking for if you want support for that lifestyle. Search the Catbox Forum for Surrendered Wife and you'll see the reactions many of the Cats feel for this type of lifestyle. Abuser's embrace this lifestyle because it gives them permission to blame their abusive actions on the female's lack of submission. We truly care that you aren't caught in this type of relationship as your letter indicated that Ven was trying to control you into. If you do want this kind of relationship, go for it, it's your life, live your life to your ideals not others - if you are happy and satisfied then you won't worry about the perceived condemnation of others who don't believe your choice is healthy - if you deem it healthy for you that's all you need. -K

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

Oh,dear. Number one, I'd chose a relationship where the partners accept each other AS THEY ARE, not with the intent of changing each other to fit any kind of precondition. The D/s and the Christianity are two separate issues. They seem to be muddled, Cat. One is based on control through sex (no, it isn't about love) and the other is about control through fear. That is why Christian thought that you bring up states there is no room for fear. This is blind. In my thoughts, those most capable of loving have faced and OWNED their fears, then choose NOT to let their fears control them. Ignoring one's inner knowing is akin to ignoring God, if that is your guiding force. The intent is to lead through love, but unfortunately I think much Christian teaching out there get tainted with control through fear, and maybe it is completely logical that this becomes entwined with the D/s because ultimately that is what the D/s is about, too. You don't need Ven to show you what love is about. D/s isn't love. It is addiction, like Dr. Irene says. It is a love replacement and a fear surpressor. I am afraid this probably will not make sense to you. Please at least do a search on the D/s lifestyle and include insights by those that may have gotten out. Like the posters above have said, I think the most important thing right now is for you to acknowledge and accept your fears. Right now you relationship seems like a safe haven and a distraction to help you through a difficult time. It truly is an addiction. Best wishes to you.

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

No, I didn't post to debate about submission. I believe that Dr. Irene made the focus of this posting about submission. Yes, I wanted to understand these events better. Yes, I want to be true to myself - what I believe. I have always been taught that submission is pleasing to God. I have also always been taught that the only center I should have is Jesus, not self. Making Self the center has made a false god of myself - which is no more healthy, according to the Bible, than making another person my center, or money, or sex, etc. Only God should be there. Just because I submit to a man doesn't mean that he has become my center. I submit because it is pleasing to God - and because I love Ven. You assume that being submissive means you are a doormat, but this implies that the man is treating you badly. Submission to a loving man is a joy. This posting session has helped me greatly and I am at peace with submission being a healthy part of a relationship. I hope you don't think that just because I haven't come to the same conclusions as the rest of you, that I shouldn't have posted at all. I hope you won't try to invalidate my convictions by claiming that is not me talking, or that I have not really tried to understand what is going on. I HAVE done this by taking what you have had to say and measured it up against the ideals I live by. If you want to call me a cultist, so be it. Or as the band DC Talk puts it, a "Jesus Freak". ~Cat

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

Proverbs 3:5-7 "Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil." I do not believe that I can understand Truth by looking into my self. This is setting me up as god - as all knowing. Additionally, I would claim that I HAVE faced my fears, and decided taht I should not let them control my decisions. I will not throw Ven away just because I am afraid he will become abusive. And if you really do accept people as they are in a relationship, then you WOULD NEVER tell them not to mistreat you - or do you only get involved with perfect people that never make mistakes? Do you only get involved with men that can read your mind so that they don't HAVE to change because they are exactly what you think they should be? There is always a process of change when two people have a relationship. It is called growth - and I would hope that any man I am involved with will help me grow. Proverbs 27:17 "Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another." ~Cat

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

I don't believe anyone is telling you you shouldn't have posted in the first place - personally I'm having trouble understanding WHY you posted as someone struggling with a man with definite control tatics, asked for responses, then get offended at our answers because we don't know you've already decided to live with Ven as is. I believe many of us have posted to get away from this guy (the guy we met in your first post)because there are definite RED FLAGS that he wants you under his control. I also believe many of us said YOU have to chose for YOU and no matter what we believe YOU have to make YOUR own choice. If it makes you happy - really our opinions may give you a twinge of sadness because we don't agree but our opinions should not MAKE YOU chose differently. We just disagree. That's okay. I encourage you to read some books like "Why Not Women" and others whose authors have re-researched the content and context of Biblical verses that have been misused by our current culture. But if you are satisfied you understand scripture then reading these won't change your opinion -you may think we're still the ones misintrepreting scripture. And that's okay. We're not here to change each other - we're here to change ourselves, and I believe understanding SELF is a huge part of understanding FAITH -that we have to focus on ourselves and learn about our own self before we can healthily take care of another human being. We first have to figure out who God created us to be before we can even start meeting another's needs without allowing ourselves to be absorbed into another abuse/victim dynamic. Once we've taken the "selfish" time to heal within then we can truly be "self-less" and help others who TRULY want and need help and aren't only asking to be rescued over and over. If you've come to the conclusion that you aren't a victim in this case -Great! If it's just a fantasy that you're acting out occassionally to explore your sexuality - go for it. I personally feel enslaved and degraded when asked to not express myself sexually but also crawl on my hands and knees and call someone master as if he owns me everytime we have sexual relations. But that's just me - I can't see the game in that or any healthy thinking in that. Dr. Irene brought up BDSM submission/domination which differs from the Biblical submission (which you brought up)-dual submission - no one is dominate over the other. What you described in your letter is more BDSM submission/domination. If you two have worked it out to where you both feel it's more Biblical (as you understand in your cultural/spiritual upbringing)than BDSM then it sounds as if you are communicating and making changes for each other. We're just trying to encourage you to take some personal time. It just seems odd that within the time you've posted the letter you've gone from some intense interpersonal fears as posted in your april 1 letter to having faced your fears and decided everything is okay 5 days later. That's some pretty fast healing. And personally I wouldn't call you a JesusFreak, Jesus elevated women in the Bible - he did not place them in submissive roles - he told Martha her sister Mary was chosing the better thing when Mary chose to JOIN the men and learn from Jesus. Priscilla was the leader of a church held in her own home -her husband helped her. I see you are ignoring questions about your original letter where VEN is obviously trying to control your whole life - instead you are focussing on your responders and their Biblical beliefs and making this section a debate on theology rather than abuse. Hence, if you still have a question on abuse, I'll be happy to join in on the discussion, otherwise I wish you happiness in your life choices and continued spiritual growth. -K

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

Repost.... I believe the experience of Dr. Irene and the fellow catboxers is INVALUABLE to those who question their situations or look for answers about abuse. Why?? Because like an educated person of ANY topic, they KNOW their area of "expertise", inside and out. The kitties have lived it, breathed it, cried and bled because of it. Dr. Irene IS the expert! Her years of expertise clearly state that there are big issues with respect to Ven. We don't know Ven. We have no personal relationship that could cloud our opinions...but the experience of the kitties is screaming.."RED FLAG, RED FLAG, RED FLAG!!!" or... If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...IT IS A DUCK!!!!!!!! If nothing else, remember this....JUST like we have all learned, it is almost CERTAIN that abusers will NOT stop abusing us. That is a fact. It is almost CERTAIN that a women who does not heal herself after ending an abusive relationship WILL choose another abusive partner!!! Me thinks thee doth protest too much. My opinion is given with ((( Prayers & Hugs))) Me ADDITION TO MY ORIGINAL POST: I find it interesting that YOU have become so defensive. To quote you: "I didn't post to debate about submission. I believe that Dr. Irene made the focus of this posting about submission." I am offended by this statement. Your original letter was ABSOLUTELY about Ven's control & dominance and your discomfort &/or questioning with respect to submitting to him. In my opinion, to put blame on Dr. Irene is VERY disrespectful of her. It appears you are now twisting your words to fit some objective that we kitties are quite baffled by. AND, after rereading your posts, it is clear that YOUR responses ABSOLUTELY appear to be designed to generate debate about submission and the bible. Also, To quote you: "And if you really do accept people as they are in a relationship, then you WOULD NEVER tell them not to mistreat you..." ARE YOU KIDDING??? I find this comment MOST offensive. On a site designed to aid in the healing of the abused, this comment is disrespecful, inflammatory, misguided, hurtful, ignorant and uncalled for. The people on this site have, in good faith, attempted to help you, guide you and lend their EXPERTISE to you. Abuse and submission are mutually exclusive. You cannot substitute one for the other, EVEN when quoting the bible. I will repeat: Me thinks thee doth protest too much. My opinion is that either Cat's responses are either being made by Ven or an attempt to use the this forum to further your own agenda, what that is, I am not sure. If I am wrong and you are indeed posting these comments without his direction, I will pray for you and your son to be saved from a certain life of unhappiness dominated by abuse and control. Me

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

With respect to what I just posted, I always sign my posts Me.....but to clarify so that you no one thinks I am hiding behind my signature, my logon name is paind

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

Hi, rants are ok. But...... Paragrahs are better. We are talking manners.

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Saturday, April 07, 2007

"Hi, rants are ok. But...... Paragrahs are better. We are talking manners." ???? I'm not sure I understand your point...The reply box doesn't allow paragraphs - it reformats into one long post. What manners are we talking about? Right. I reformat to paragraphs sometimes.

Very interesting thread Cat and all of you posters out there. You collectively brought out some fascinating points. I am not a Biblical writer and cannot comment on that perspective. I can only comment on my area of expertise. Cat, I wish you the very best. I see that you are making sense of your lifestyle from a biblical perspective, and I'm happy for you that it works.

I don't understand what happened between the time you posted, full of doubt, and the time you felt the need to defend yourself. I can only wonder, did you feel guilty? As though you were betraying the man you love? Maybe you needed to talk to him about the D/s stuff and thus brought him in, and now you need to demonstrate your devotion to him. And maybe none of that. In any case, we have free will and how each of us chooses to run our lives is entirely up to each given individual. If the individual involved does not see a problem, there is no problem.

Meanwhile, you've been given lots of thoughtful feedback here. Maybe it applies to you, maybe it doesn't; maybe one day it will, and maybe it won't. In any case, you have lots of information in the event that one day the honeymoon ends and you are not happy. I hope you will remain content, and wish you and Ven the very best.

Many thanks to you for sending in this thread and many thanks to all of you who took the time and effort to reply.

My warmest Holiday Wishes to all. Dr. Irene, April 8, 2007.

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Sunday, April 08, 2007

First off, He isn’t your husband. God doesn’t ask you to treat every man as your husband. The bible states you are too submissive in the biblical sense towards your husband only. That doesn’t mean you don’t show respect towards others, etc. The flippant attitude was towards people that taught you the WRONG image of God. We all suffer and as women are not to called SUFFER more just because we are women! I never mentioned the fact that we are not called serve those around us, but again this man is not your husband. The role of wife doesn’t apply right now. Are you to show him respect, honor, etc – of course! He is also to do this to you! The bedroom is not always to be his domain to run as he sees fit! Again it is a two way street, and he also should give into what your wishes are there as well! In the eyes of God sex is to be shared with spouses only anyway. Stating you both are committed to each other, and don’t cheat hardly make that command less sinful. I’m hardly belittling God – I get mad at those churches who spend WAY to much effort on the role of the wife – the women – and not do the same towards the man. He is to do his role also, and it isn’t conditional on her behavior, etc. Although you could get that impression by some of the churches teachings. Again you mention HEAD, and again I must point out he is not your HEAD since he is NOT your husband! Did Jesus tell everyone in the tone that you hear a lot of men now days tell women how they are the head of the household and must submit? NO! The man is to lay down his life for his wife, and put himself to the side to serve her and love her. He is to sacrifice himself for her. That is what the bible says also – that hardly translates to AUTHORITY figure in all realms! What makes me think God doesn’t wish wife to serve as King of the home? Because scripture doesn’t say that for one! We are to show him honor! That doesn’t mean we can’t disagree, and work something out! That doesn’t mean he gets the last word for everything! He is to lay down his life, love her, and sacrifice himself for her – that doesn’t translate to king of all decisions. Remember when Jesus washed his followers feet? That was to show that he was a servant to them. In biblical days that were the most low of jobs, and yet he insisted on doing this to make a point. You hardly get that impression of the roles of men now with warped sense of submission. In a lot of churches that would be beneath men, and would be woman’s work. That isn’t what Jesus told them though! When you love someone you don’t do that! You do take her opinions, feelings, etc into account. You are to come together and make decisions with the other in mind. Scripture doesn’t state that one has power over the other in the sense you were taught or heard. Men and women are to both hold the position you are stating. It’s not a one-way street! John 13:14-17 I, your Lord and Teacher, have just washed your feet. You, then, should wash one another's feet. 15 I have set an example for you, so that you will do just what I have done for you. 16 I am telling you the truth: no slaves are greater than their master, and no messengers are greater than the one who sent them. 17 Now that you know this truth, how happy you will be if you put it into practice! We are to serve one another – not be KING over each other! You can’t be both roles! As Jesus said no slave is great than his or her master, and no messengers are greater than those that sent them! Men and Women are to serve one another, and place this into practice! I never saw an exception clause in his “I tell you the truth” teaching! The King is Jesus, and we are to both serve him! He is the King and the Master – neither gender on this earth has title to better or KING! You mentioned something about how you would NEVER mention to a person NOT to mistreat you?? Does Jesus say that? I don’t remember him saying that. Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. Does that translate to you MUST be in relationship with someone perfect and without imperfections? Hardly! Personally, you are a bit confusing. You state all these things that intimate you, make you feel uncomfortable etc – and then in the next breath say they are not. Its either denial you are speaking from, or….I have no idea what other thing it could be. It hurts to see that the person you love and cherish does things like you speak of. It’s hard to accept that they are not the person we felt we fell in love with. If he truly loved you and was committed, etc he would taking your rebukes and your concerns to heart, and trying to change them. He would be wounded inside knowing that you felt this way, and would go out of his way to make you feel better than them. The only way that would happen if he doesn’t is if you call him on this behavior, and you place a boundary down firmly. NOT put up with manipulations, guilt trips and speeches about how you aren’t perfect either. Not is NOT addressing things – that is call diversion. Not everyone sees that clearly at first either. Its not a crime – it just IS! I assume you will be disappearing now since you have the perfect relationship in your eyes. I sincerely hope it stays that way. If it doesn’t we will still be here. App2

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Sunday, April 08, 2007

Hi Cat, I think Dr Irene has given you a spot-on reply I would add to Dr Irene's reply by saying most strongly that it seems to me that you really know, with all your being, that Ven is bad for you, going by how you react and by the simple fact that you are writing to Dr Irene about this. This confirms to me that your attraction to Ven is like an addict's need for a fix - and Dr Irene has alluded to the addiction aspect. Therefore what you need to do is to break this relationship now why you still have some "willpower" left. This guy is a very powerful drug to you; such a potent brew. And you are and were so needy. If you do not do this, you are headed to rockbottom. Unfortunately in the case of the addictive "disease" you will acquire here in its full-blown form, this is called the Stockholm Syndrome and your return from such a place of extreme degredation, suffering and submission is not likely unless you get exceptional help (which does not happen often; the world is full of doomed victims). And, as Dr Irene said, in effect, look to your son and protect him. Summon all your motherly love and take him and your Self to safety away from this guy who will suck the souls out of you both and spit them out,laughing. Does this thought of such masochistic subjection really excite you to the point that you will let all else that is dear to you go? If it doesn't, RUN ! I think this neediness of yours points to way to what you have to do, which is to learn and heal to become a more "whole" and independently coping person, learning to stand on your own feet and nurturing yourself. And personally I would recommend buying a nice all-purpose massager. Use as needed. Your choice. For your personal growth, you will probably need guidance. A therapist who deals with this would be a help. A helpful book I like is "Healing Your Emotional Self: A Powerful Program to Help You Raise Your Self-Esteem, Quiet Your Inner Critic, and Overcome Your Shame"by Beverly Engel - see http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Your-Emotional-Self-Self-Esteem/dp/0470127783/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8937082-0555314?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176090383&sr=1-1 . You need to learn to live as you really yearn to. Drinking "seawater" out of desperation is not a good idea. All the best with this. Ariel

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Monday, April 09, 2007

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Thursday, April 12, 2007

Cat, I was very open and honest in responding to you. If you willingly CHOOSE the life of a submissive, there is no need for defense. My concern is that you are being seduced into it by somebody much more experienced. A truly concerned lover would have patience with your level of comfort and not pressure you or insinuate that you are "wrong" because your ways are different. If you are truly comfortable with your decision, WHY the need for all the justifications? God made us in his image - with FREE WILL. The words of the Bible were written by MEN in a historical period that found a single woman a danger to the community. God has given you the mind to discern for yourself what is wrong and what is right. HE won't "hide" the answers in a book, or trick you with interpretations. You will FEEL His voice in your heart. Please remember us here at Dr. Irene's site if/when you feel the need again for support and sharing. We'll still be here. HandyGram

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Thursday, April 12, 2007

The way you talk about this guy makes it so clear that your not enjoying the weirdness hun, get out of there and spend sometime being good to yourself, finding out what does make you happy. XX

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Sunday, April 15, 2007

consider your own values, priorities, in this or any relationship

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007

Cat, this guy doesn't sound healthy at all. I made the mistake after my first divorce of getting involved with someone too soon after the divorce. It takes time to heal emotionally, sometimes quite a while. Please look at this for what it is, and get out. DD

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007

"Normal"? What exactly is normal and who gets to decide and define it? I am in a D/s relationship that is healthier than most "vanilla" (non D/s) relationships out there. And I know many people who are also healthy, happy and fulfilled in D/s relationships. Some include BDSM actitivities and some don't. Those who acknowledge, accept and revel in their dominant or submissive natures are being true to themselves. I was born with a submissive nature, and even as a teenager, I fantasized about being controlled by the man I love, and yes, about kinky sex. I came from a loving, stable family, so the notion that everyone who embraces this lifestyle is damaged is wrong. I was ashamed of feeling this way because the idea of woman submitting to a man's will isn't popular anymore. It's consider weak and it is anything but weak. Some men and women submit only in the bedroom and others choose to give their partner authority over them in all things. The problem arises when the dominant partner isn't truly strong enough to accept the great responsibility that comes from being so deeply responsible for another person. I suggest you peruse this website for information as well. http://www.takeninhand.com/ And more than anything, you need to step back and learn about YOU and what makes you tick. What makes you happy and fulfilled. And if what makes you happy and fulfilled isn't what the world considers "normal" then to hell with the world. Most of those who scream the loudest about something not being normal are so screwed up themselves, they wouldn't know normal if it bit them in the butt. Normal is just an illusion, nothing more. Good luck to you!

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007

This sounds like a classic cult-like relationship where even what seems like caring is calculated to draw you in. It is called love bombing. If this kind of sex was of interest to you, you would have known about it sooner, and would not have to do research on it. IMO, that seems like a way to validate HIS behavior. What could be greater for him than someone knew to initiate and mold to his liking. Can almost bet the farm that when you decide you don't like his style, you will be berated and dropped.

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Friday, April 20, 2007

Dear Cat, I see some similarities between my experience and yours. I met A briefly in person and then we corresponded by email for three months before I visited him. We have been in a relationship for seven months, and I have only in the past month or so realized I am in a verbally abusive relationship. I therefore have some other concerns, like about conflicts that seem always to be my fault, and about feeling at times I am walking on eggshells to avoid another occasion where I feel mentally and emotionally battered. However, what you wrote brought into focus some matters about which my inner mind has been trying to raise some red flags. He has felt a need to instruct me on proper ways to kiss and he has also objected to my touching him on particular parts of his body (head, shoulder, chest) that he says impact on a problem he has with his hearing. One night, one of those verbal abuse episodes was triggered because he objected to the way I was stroking his hand. As in your case, I have the sense that I am one of a long long list of women. A. seems to get pleasure from bragging to me about women, some of whom were supposedly virtual beauty queens, and decades younger than I. One day, he 'accidentally' showed me an almost nude photo he had taken of one of his women who he said was a model. At first I was irritated by being given what I felt was more information than I needed, but tried to get me to play his game by suggesting to me that I was being insecure about his past girlfriends. But what made bells go off in my head was your mention of the submission in sex. My sense is that we are pleasing each other when we have sex. Until now, therefore, I have not had any problem with his entering me when I am in prayer position. But I have begun to have some unease (in the context of the attempted control in the rest of the relationship) about his being in the superior position on his feet, and my being in the inferior position on my hands and knees. I had the concern that we could not then see each other's faces, so he could perceive me as an object he was penetrating. This feeling was heightened recently when I said to him that I preferred when I could see his face when we were having sex, and he spoke of his pleasure when I was in the prayer position because he felt he was having his own private porno show. He likes to watch hard porn and says he finds it entertaining, and that is another issue that we differ about from a gender perspective. The other concern I have about the sex, is that sometimes he has a hard on and just asks me to turn around without our having had any foreplay at that time. I spoke to him about this one time, and he said it was my fault because what else did I expect when I caressed his penis. There is no question about this being highly consensual sex, but I am not having second thoughts (all round) about what I may have consented to. I know the relationship is in trouble, and I feel as if I am on the brink of ending it. What helps, in a way, is that we live in different cities, and so I have time to think and decide on my own. Annie